Which teams had a Happy Christmas and which didn't?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. After a full round of festive action, we are back to try and work out what it all means. How many more games do Aston Villa need to win before they become title contenders? Are Arsenal starting to look a little bit shaky? Are Liverpool clicking without Mo Salah? And is anyone worried about Bournemouth? All that and loads more, including a discussion about who is the manager of the season so far. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here.

0:38Team, we are back post-Christmas. Did you all have a lovely time? Wonderful team. Tom, yes, thanks for asking. Alison, I think all listeners, and I was thinking this as I was unwrapping my gifts on Christmas Day, are wondering if you got a new flag, and if so, which one for the World Cup? No, no, I didn't get a flag, which is weird, but I gave football strips out with replica kits of Jordan and Uzbekistan. Nice. Because they're debutantes. But I think I might have screwed up Full kits Well no just the top Oh right I think they might be fan designed As opposed to real Oh no Who would know They're really cool But I think they're a bit too cool A bit too cool They're not like fully authentic I haven't cross referenced So I don't want to know Well I mean it's the thought that counts isn't it it's just trying it's trying gregor did you dish out any scotland kits this christmas that's the key question no no scotland kits yeah i told you tom i think they're slightly too young to be fully indoctrinated yet but um mate it's world cup year next year this might be as good as it gets yeah yeah i mean she might get one before the world cup ccile might get one before the world cup yeah we'll see about that but no there was more like frozen themed disney all that inner stuff stuff she'll actually like yeah that's fair enough that's good parenting i hear get them things they actually like top work from gregor robertson let's get stuck straight in to the football then and i thought we could do a bit of a thematic show covering every team in the premier league and looking at the table as a whole and because it was an interesting set of fixtures from boxing day and then the days after we had the kind of the teams at the top of the table all winning I mean Aston Villa we keep the the narrative around them Gregor for the last couple of shows where whether we've had Alisson or Tom Allnut or Tony Cascarino everyone's always been like well you know it's great for Aston Villa it's great for Unai Emery they're not gonna last they're not gonna last and then they keep winning they come back against Chelsea and win Oli Watkins off the bench are we at the stage now where if they beat Arsenal we have to consider them title contenders look if they beat Arsenal it would be a huge statement and yes the answer would be yes like it is unsustainable whatever way you look at it no one can keep winning every single game and it's 11 in a row now I think 9 of them by a long goal margin like there are a lot there's a lot of things to to kind of a lot of context to consider in this run but it's been remarkable and there is there are also it's just illuminated things about the team which is which can evoggle well for the rest of the season the way that they're just never beaten the way that they can turn the they can completely flip the narrative of a game or just make substitutions that change the momentum shift the momentum they've got players who can win games on their own and like there's so many faces to this Aston Villa side so it's been brilliant, magnificent and the last half an hour the way those three subs who came on like Jadon Sancho we said last week imagine he steps up in the second half of the season and makes a contribution and we said the same about Harvey Elliott that could still happen he did this in the in the last half an hour at Stanford Bridge against his old team Ollie Watkins who said if he starts getting in the goals you never know so like that's the biggest one I think like if Ollie Watkins gets I don't know double figures between now and then of the season goals then they'll be up there because they're really good defensively and they've got enough game changers in their side so the game against Arsenal promises to be an absolute cracker if they win that there's no other conversation to be had there in it I think if you're in the situation that Villa are in there are lots of disadvantages and we have spoken about them the fact that you can't live off exceeding your expected goals by such a huge margin does point to it being some slight luck in your favour but because no one's seriously yet saying they could win the league.

4:56They can behave like the underdog in every game. So I thought it was absolutely fascinating that they go to Stamford Bridge. And honestly, they played like a team that were struggling to stay at the bottom three. Let's just try and keep it safe. They didn't even try and play good. They didn't press. They did nothing at all. They just absorbed as much of the Chelsea pressure as they could. And then it wasn't like, oh the subs came on oh what a coincidence or kel surprise it's livened up team it was all planned that if you know you've got a squad that's relatively limited in terms of depth compared to chelsea what do you what it was it was as if you and i am a plotted every minute of that match it wasn't it wasn't like it wasn't fortuitous it was i felt it was coming i didn't know how it was going to work but I felt it was coming that they would start to press and they would start to play differently and move up the gears quite rapidly and that Chelsea who sort of becomes semi-famous for not being as good in the second half as they are in the first if you know that about a team then let them let them puff themselves out in the first half do what do what damage they can and then then switch up yourself so but that's not how you that's not how you play if you'd started the season as the favorites to win the title you would have more aura and authority about you there would be no deliberate deference but because they're in this sort of sidling behind you on your shoulder sort of routine for this title race I think I think that's and that is one advantage for them I think they could go and play Arsenal and people might say well you you know Arsenal much better than Chelsea.

6:47So if you don't press them and you're quite negative to start with, maybe you'll get punished. But I sort of feel like Emery has probably worked that out, that he could try it that way and then spring the surprise earlier, perhaps. I just feel psychologically, it must be quite hard to prepare for this Villa team because they might not give you what you would expect from a team that are hovering just behind the top two. I mean, Gregor, just coming back to the point you made about, you know, they can't keep winning these games. I mean, why can't they? I mean, is there not a flip side to the kind of confidence and momentum that you get from these things?

7:25You know, I'm not comparing it to Leicester. It's a completely different scenario, but we did have a good couple of months going, they can't keep this up. They can't keep this up. Alisson's just outlined there the kind of clever game plans that Unai Emery possesses. You talked about Jadon Sancho and some of these players that we haven't yet seen this season, if they start producing. I mean all games are difficult in the Premier League why can't they keep it going because they'll have so much confidence in the squad right now what I'm saying is they can't keep winning every week they can't, they less than win 11 games in a row in all comps like you can't just keep winning even Man City in their pomp whenever you say every year this time he used to say and probably should be saying again now you know they're going to come like it doesn't stretch much further than that so yes there'll be blips and they might be able to maintain you know really high kind of points per game between now and the end of the season but there will be blips and like the thing that's interesting about Villa is it's almost like they play cup football tournament football, it's like every game has a different game plan, it's not all about this is what we do and the opposition are going to have to adjust to it they have a kind of foundation, they're like 4-4-2 out of possession, it's just really really hard to break down and they ask a lot of their attacking players defensively and then when they have the ball they've kind of evolved a bit and they're not really playing without wingers they're kind of either Rodgers McGinn or McGinn and Buendia kind of playing as sort of like, although they're the wide guys out of position, they kind of drift inside to be like two number ten so they're really narrow and then a lot of wits from the fullback so it's hard to play against it's like they kind of flood the centre of the pitch and whoever you're playing against it creates a lot of problems and conundrums for the opposition defensively and then you've got the dynamism and vertical running of Rodgers and Watkins if he's on the pitch and Malin if he's on the pitch they're a tough tough proposition so there's loads in Villa's favour but you just come back to it there'll be a lot of underlying things about this run which point to it not going on forever and the depth of the squad when you compare it to Arsenal's when you compare it to City's is not quite the same but I would love to see them get a result against Arsenal because my god then you've got a title race like a really exciting title race Yeah definitely well let's talk about those two teams just in front of them as you mentioned there Arsenal and Manchester City Arsenal picking up a 2-1 win at home to Brighton very Arsenal very solid but I did wonder with lots of discussion around David Reyes excellent save admittedly potentially one of the saves of the season.

10:07I don't know what you guys think, but there was a little bit watching the end of this game and you start to think, oh, they're a bit nervous, aren't they? Maybe it's just the fans. Maybe it's some of the coaches. Maybe it's some of the players. This wasn't quite Arsenal shut the game out. This was Arsenal. Oh God, we might concede an equaliser any minute now. I don't know what you guys thought. That was the kind of sense I got from watching this game. Yeah, I think the Wolves game has knocked their confidence a bit because it wasn't like sheer brilliance that saw them through that game. They were out pummeled and found it difficult to break walls down.

10:43And they were, you know, walls are walls and that wasn't supposed to happen and they needed two own goals to get through that game. And instead of it being like, well, aren't we amazing when things go wrong? Fate is smiling on us. I think it knocked the self-belief a little bit so that that seeped back in for this game and Brighton are a better team than Wolves and started to carve pathways through Arsenal. I mean, yeah, if Arsenal were to win the title this year, they would undoubtedly look back on that save by David Ray and think that was absolutely critical because it definitely saved at least, well, you know, save points.

11:28It definitely did. But I don't think that's like quirky. I mean, you know, that's part, they identified Rea as the keeper they wanted above all else, who fitted their model absolutely. Because he, you know, he steps out and he plays like a centre back at times, but he's also someone who can make fantastic individual saves. It's not like you get one or the other from him. He's just, he's just an outstanding keeper. And that's, if they were to win the title, that'd be what? Best keeper in the league? In turn, well, maybe not just if you line them up in an identity parade, but I think in terms of how he fits into the team he's with, yes.

12:15Because I think Arteta has built this team almost around him. He's felt a really important signing to Arteta to me, that his keeper dictates the style of play and is regarded as a really safe pair of hands and very good shot stopper and a very good personality and then produces moments like this one from Minty's amazing attempt. I think that rather than say ooh didn't they get lucky with Reyes saving I think that underlines the point that he's such an important player for them Yeah Gregor what do you make of all of that and my point that maybe there was a little bit of relief a little bit more of belief in this one Yes I don't think it's a little bit I think there's been a lot of sort of nervous energy at the Emirates kind of for most of December I mean that kind of really interesting in Statua in December Arsenal's top goal scorer is on goals I mean four on goals Maduecki's got two and Marino Saka Trossard Martinelli Jokre and Odegaard got one so like and if you look at as Alison said you look at the kind of the results in in the last few weeks they kind of that pretty kind of attritional although they turned it on a bit in the second half but 1-0 1-1 and it's a good good win like these are all good wins the win against Wolves was the one where you know they needed two own goals and one of them right at the death before that there was the defeat against Villa, the win against Brentford at the start of the month was quite kind of stodgy and just effective so it's not been free-flowing stuff from Arsenal for a number of weeks now and that's fine, you'll have moments in the season where it's like this and Arsenal are still winning games but there's definitely nervous energy inside the stadium and it's like it's almost a bit you know where's this coming from are the fans kind of feeding off the the the kind of stodginess of the performances on the pitch or is it like the other way around you know there's a bit of a a relationship there that kind of Arsenal have obviously finished second three years in a row they've got to you know they've led from the front before and fallen away and their minerals have been questioned.

14:42I don't think that's fair. I just think when Man City are really turning it on now and they've won eight in a row, it's not going to be the kind of procession that some people forecast earlier in the season. As long as Arsenal are finding a way to get over the line, they'll be happy. But there's no doubt there's some real nervous energy at the Emirates just now. and it'll be interesting to see what it's like against Aston Villa as well. Yeah, let's have a prediction then. I honestly think Villa are going to win it. I think Villa are going to beat them. I just think Villa's confidence and the things we've talked about with Arsenal there, Unai Emery's done it before against Arsenal, Arlie Watkins has done it before against Arsenal.

15:23We've talked about their masterful game plans. I just think Aston Villa are going to win this one. What about you guys? I think there's every chance. I do, yeah. But you're going to say Arsenal 2-1 I think Villa will probably set out to frustrate them and to kind of use that nervous energy as a weapon and then try and flip the game and shift the momentum in the way that they have before The only issue is there's a lot of games where Villa have had to come from behind as well We can say that they're masterful tacticians and Emery's brilliant all we want but they've also gone like one or two goals behind in half of these games and had to shift the momentum and do something different to win the game if they go one or two behind against Arsenal Arsenal getting Gabriel back from injury like I know there are other injuries there always seems to be a new injury at Arsenal these days but you can't give them you know you can't go two behind against Arsenal it's very unlikely you'll be able to come back from that so I don't know you want a prediction?

16:29No I'm going to go a draw draw score draw score draw score draw Alison yeah no score draw sounds good I just feel like if you feed into your analytical system the Arsenal games against Brighton and Wolves I think if you're Aston Villa you've got to come away and think you've got a chance really haven't you because you're currently better than those two teams and a bit more astute and I just think they won't they might pretend to be deferential that they won't be one thing for Arsenal is like if Martin Odegaard was outstanding in this game and if he if he kind of finds his can stay fit and be in his biggest form like when Martin Odegaard is playing well Arsenal play well that's really that simple and they should have they should have been two or three years ahead against Bray and they allowed them the opportunity to come back into the game so if him and if Odegaard and Saka are on song then like it's hard for anyone to live with Arsenal.

17:31Gregor Robertson coming in there with the counter prediction to the prediction he just made two minutes ago. Both things can still be true, listeners. It might be heading towards a new year. Gregor Robertson stays exactly the same. Let's just quick word on Manchester City talking, as we have done, about teams finding a way to win. I would say there may be the mood with Manchester City's victory against Nottingham Forest, 2-1, an excellent finish from Ryan Shirky at the end. That felt a little bit more in the belief category rather than the relief category that we're suggesting at Arsenal. What do you think, Greg?

18:02Yeah, although, I mean, you heard Pep Guardiola afterwards, who was like, you know, in full swing to reporters afterwards. He was really enthused by it because he said this game, 10 out of 10 games against teams like Forest last season, we lose this. Because Forest were good and they really threw everything at them. and he was also kind of quite open about how Cherki is someone who like, in one moment he wants to shout at him and in another he wants to kiss him because he's not he's like the kind of emblem of the player that Pep Guardiola has had to embrace as he's evolved recently, it's not all about the systems man, he's got to give someone the licence to do what they could do best and that's what that's what he's done recently he's been absolutely outstanding and it was really interesting as well to see him turn around and give praise to Pep Linders for obviously mentioning something at half time about playing that extra pass to find the little pockets of space for the number 10s and that's how they got the goal and he turned around and he pointed at him and he said he's so good it's like I'm the assistant manager he's in good form just now Pep isn't he you see him he seems re-energised I've said this before and it's like I don't know I don't know, it didn't feel quite as authentic he looks like he's kind of I don't know, he's embracing things that are slightly different and he's full of beans and that kind of, I don't know that doesn't all go well for the rest of the league it's either he's full of beans because he knows there's a big massive wedge of cash coming for another contract extension and chat coming up soon or he's like, do you know what this is perfect I'm going to win the league and waltz off into the golf course and both options are good Gregor as you would agree both things are good Pep has got every reason to be absolutely buzzing just a quick word on Ryan Cherky because I was just thinking about the year and the signings as we head towards Channery window I was looking this up City paid around 34 million pounds for this guy and I think he's looked really kind of quietly excellent so far this season I don't know what you about you guys he's only 21 they could have got an absolute bargain here.

20:23Yeah, no, he's definitely, you can tell he's class, definitely. He's got that sort of vision and touch and he looks older or plays older than 21, I would say. He looks very comfortable in the Premier League very quickly. He's definitely a player you think, God, in another six months he's going to be worth triple that possibly. and maybe this is the trust he's being given by Pep. Normally, if a player made him angry one minute and happy the next, they would end up not seeing as many minutes, I think, as Jerky has. So that's a sign that he does admire him. And I would say there's something, I mean, there's been something ominous about City for a few weeks now, but it really went up a gear against Forrest because I thought Forrest were brilliant.

21:15really entertaining, really difficult team to play against. But you sort of just felt that there was a win coming there for City. They've just got that thing about them where they refuse. What they do is they refuse to become ruffled by another team's physicality or excellence or whatever it is they've got. They just refuse. They just find a way to counter it, which I think explains why Pep Binder's got all the plaudits because they weren't very analytical at halftime and thought, come on, come on, we can work this out. And they did. And it doesn't really matter who Arsenal are facing in the next few weeks, but they will be so worried about City in this form.

22:02And I don't think it matters, the motivation for Pep being in such good spirits. He often gets quite defiant, doesn't he? and maybe these 115 charges are going to suddenly reap, reap, reap some sort of deadly blow upon them. And he wants to sort of deflect from this cloud that hovers over the club. He's always been a bit like that with this. But in terms of pure football, I think you've got to say their favorite. but you just have to say they're favourites because of how they're not winning games through luck. They're winning games through either tightening up or widening out. They are capable of doing whatever it takes to counter what the opposition are giving them.

22:53They are very, very clever. I still think they're slightly vulnerable defensively. There were moments, periods in this game where they looked wide open and stretched and I think even just looking at as much as I've lauded Mikko Riley's young player he might have peaks and troughs Nunez's right back is better going forward than he is defensively I don't think Ruben Diaz is still quite the sort of imperious defender he looked when he first arrived Guardiola's in great form to be fair so I don't know against you know Forrest had chances and there were periods where City looked really stretched. But I think all the things we've said about City in terms of the way they're clicking in an attacking sense, the energy that they're playing with, just the vibe around them too.

23:46I mean, Paul Horspiece in the paper today where it was quite an extensive interview really with Guardiola and he was talking about that. He said, like last year we lost energy. We lost that kind of, that's the word he kept using. like we had to get that back and we got back from the summer we needed new players we needed base we needed new staff we needed all these things but the biggest thing we needed was new energy and he feels like we've got it and like you can see it in him Yeah absolutely City looking very dangerous near the top of the table Let's look at the teams in 4th, 5th and 6th we've got Liverpool picked up a win against Wolves with goals from Florian Wurtz and some assists as well for Frimpong Ekotike starting to wonder whether these new players are finally starting to gel without Mo Salah around in the team.

24:32Chelsea, of course, in fifth, to beat and buy Aston Villa. More worrying times, I'd say, for Enzo Mareska. And Manchester United picking up an important win at home against Newcastle, 1-0, finding a way to win with a slightly ragged team of different players in different positions and missing Bruno Fernandes, of course. Which of those teams do you guys want to talk about first? I'll let you pick. Gregor, you first. Liverpool. Up to fourth. Not a disastrous season after all. Well, I mean, we'll see. because that was pretty jittery as well at the end I mean Wolves have had a funny few weeks kind of taken Arsenal and Liverpool very near but just what you're saying is true there's signs of a sort of some of the new signings really acclimatise and Wurz is the most important of those his little through ball for I think it was for Issa Akelin at one point it was just like the most beautifully weighted pass that you'll see and you see more and more of those moments of class and obviously for him to get his first Premier League goal was huge but I don't know they still look kind of quite fragile psychologically and you know towards the end that tackle by Conor Bradley was crucial so it could have been very different again but you're right I think Isak's injury and Salah Zalabina way just sort of removes some of the headaches that they've had in terms of who you're going to fit into the team makes the selection much easier it does make the selection easier I've got to pick these guys right great fine it does yeah and it's been interesting too that Virch is kind of he's kind of settling to being a guy who's playing off the left and they're not really playing with as much width in that regard and then the full backs are going to be really important Frimpong or Bradley they've got to have one of them fit that totally changes the dynamic of the team so yeah it's been positive for Liverpool but still just extraordinary how kind of fragile they seem and yeah yeah I mean it also kind of sums up the bonkers nature of the league this season that they're up to fourth yeah Alison I've stumbled upon this belief or relief thing so I'm going to keep it going with Liverpool which would you categorise this win as?

26:48well I think I think it was important that at last a plan that's laid in the summer came true which was that Fringbong's adaptability that he can be a standard fullback or a wingback or a winger. And the idea was he would be able to slot in there when Salah went to AFCON. They didn't know there were going to be these fireworks from Salah beforehand, but they always knew he was going to Morocco. So they wanted someone with some flexibility on the right. And that is exactly what happened in this game you felt that Ping Pong deputized for Salah very well and brought different attributes to those that Salah has in any case and that was the plan and then alongside that you did have Florian looking just so much more comfortable than he has done I mean I think probably by the end of his Liverpool career we'll be able to map it out as quite a steady graph that you know he started struggling and looking like he couldn't cope with the physicality and then elements of self-doubt because of that.

27:58But all the way through, anyone who's watched him would say, you can see he's a good player. Even when it wasn't really clicking, you could see he had it. And this is the game in which it was totally expressed. And you now have to think, follow your question, Tom. This is about belief because now they can see at least two of the players brought in the summer are starting to do what they expected from them. It can only be better in 2026. Surely this has to mean something, I would say. So this acts as belief. I completely accept what Gregor said about the jittering level of it. I don't know when that will subside completely.

28:38Maybe it won't this season. But I think it has to help. Because it did look like best laid plans had just gone out the window. It was just like nothing, nothing, nothing that anyone working in recruitment, none of it worked. But now you can see that, ah, there was some logic to it and these are the right players for those roles. Yeah, until Alexander Izak recovers from this disastrous injury that he's had and Mo Salah comes back from AFCON. But for now, Liverpool, it all seems to be working. Gregor, a good win for Manchester United and Alisson and Gregor and every single pundit or commenter in football.

29:16Ruben Hammer in change system. To be fair, I should have led with that. Let's be honest, the most striking thing of the Christmas break. When you offered the options. He went 4-4-2. Incredible scenes. Unbelievable stuff. And got a win. And a good win. Obviously, it took a good goal from Patrick Dorgue, a very good goal, I would say. Gregor, that's probably in the category of, that's a very hard technique to pull off. But some very bright points for Manchester United. Getting a win without Bumo, without Ahmad, without Bruno Fernandes. I thought Aidan Heaven, it's the second time I've watched him in succession in the back.

29:48I thought he looked very solid, a bit of a kind of old school defender, but I think he looks really strong. And it's an important win for Amarim, isn't it? And he changed his system. He changed his system. But didn't they look better for it? Didn't they look more comfortable? I mean, honestly, it's been mind - This is warming up like nothing in football, this dedication to three at the back. Absolute nonsense that it could define you in any way. It's such a small thing. His determination to apply it to a team that were never comfortable with it has been beyond ludicrous. And because it's gone on so long, we just accepted it.

30:25It's like Stockholm syndrome, isn't it? If he keeps doing it, we'll go and start nodding yes. You know, he's a three at the back, man. So what we're saying is we've got Liverpool missing, you know, their star player of last season, player of the year, global superstar, and their£125 million striker and we're going, recruitment, good. I can see it now. We've nailed it. And now we've got Manchester United, no captain, two best players of the season missing, loads of injuries and Ruben Amarin finally goes, all right, fine. I'll play four at the back and it works. They just need a lot of circumstances to happen for these two clubs to start going, yeah, yeah, this works.

31:02I can see this now. Yeah, but I wouldn't say this is the first time circumstances have made like maybe a change or a tweak the best option. It's just incredible it's taken him more than a year to actually bend to that kind of obvious alternative. And, you know, he's still got players you could have played like as his two 10s. He's still got Cesco up front. He's got Casemiro back from suspension. He's still had players. He's got Martinez back. Like, it is bewildering that he did it now. Like, I know his argument is that we've got these players missing. We're missing them. We're, you know, all these circumstances.

31:40But they've been there before. The circumstances have been here in the past I wouldn't say they looked better I don't know I think that's a bit of a leap They got a win, it was a pretty scruffy win Did you not, Gregor Did you not think they looked more comfortable though in the system? I don't know, I actually think they start to look more comfortable in the system that he wants them to play in recent weeks He's a convert He's a three in the back convert I'm not a convert at all like that system there's nothing wrong with that system if that's the way you want to play and you've got the players to play it and like the signed players that made it easier to play it they've still got issues in midfield they're still you know they're still relying on people to play at the back who maybe aren't entirely comfortable there but they've been doing it for a long time now so you know they're getting there we've seen clear progress even if the results didn't always follow we've seen clear progress in recent weeks so I just find that find it quite extraordinary that he's changed now after more than a year when there was progress being made so ultimately as I said before in the past you look at United in a lot of these games and sometimes they've played with a back four anyway when they've not got the ball it's all just positions on a piece of paper to start with on a team sheet it shifts around and the big thing was the number 10s and who played at wing back and things that was the major thing I don't know I think still like there have been progress for United but it's still big boon having Martinez back like just for leadership qualities his left foot like he's passing out from the back he's passing out yeah he's a great ball and behind what was that for was that for Francesco he's it's really good having him back and I agree Heaven has been really good recently so some positives for them the main one is the result but it was still pretty scruffy positive but scruffy I think that's a fair assessment of that game for Manchester United it's time for a quick break with still loads more to come after this short break as I say but I've got the Premier League 2025 table in front of me guys the top five has Manchester City Arsenal Aston Villa Liverpool and Chelsea but which team is in 6th place find out after the break

34:10Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson and Alison Rode with me. Shows Gregor Robertson has been keeping his mind fresh, maybe doing a few sudokus, a few puzzles over Christmas straight in with the correct answer to quiz question for the Premier League table in the calendar year of 2025. Which team sit in six? The answer is Crystal Palace. Crystal Palace in there on 59 points from 37 games in 2025. As I said, Manchester City and Arsenal joint top on 80th. Maybe that suggests the tight title race we are going to have.

34:45Fascinatingly as well, Brentford, 38 games played in the Premier League in 2025. 58 points shows the brilliant job that Keith Andrews is doing another big win for them. So let's talk about those two games first. I just wanted to quickly mention on Palace, as good a year as they have had, obviously and Oliver Glasner one of the managers of the season which is a debate we're going to have at the end of this show is this fixture list and this small squad starting to bite now because we talked about Oonha Emery getting his tactics right and getting his changes right it's not quite worked as well for Oliver Glasner in this festive period has it he's made rested people for the conference league and didn't get the win that he wanted and has just fallen short in some games they lost that game against Manchester City start playing quite well and again they've lost this home game against Spurs side who've been struggling is this just a reality check for Palace do we think?

35:38Well it's not just that he's having to rest, he's got players who are injured key players who are injured so you've got Munoz and Richards and you know it's it's asking a hell of a lot and every time the results don't go well he seems to hint that he needs some support in the transfer window and he definitely does I mean and he This isn't like a whinging manager who is finding excuses. I find it astonishing that they're doing as well as they are, given how little they reinvested after that FA Cup win, knowing that European football was coming. I think they've done a remarkable job. I mean, against Spurs, they just looked like they had treacle under their boots.

36:27They looked exhausted. I don't think you could claim they aren't trying anymore. Are they finding it too much mentally or anything? It's just sheer physical stretching and not having the players that he would normally pick available to him. It's an incredibly tough job that would be helped just from a few lone players or something. Just a bit of quality to add because we've always said, haven't we? And I think we forgot because Chelsea won the Conference League because they were able to have two separate teams in it. And that's a club the size of Chelsea. And they still recognised how exhausting Thursday night football would be.

37:07So they had their two separate teams until the very end where it had virtually no impact at all on the league performances. But Palace do not have that luxury anywhere close to that luxury. so I sort of feel the fact there was only one goal in it I know there were a couple of disallowed goals through VAR but I think it still proves that Glasner is doing the best he can do in those circumstances I defy anyone else to have gone into that game and got more out of those players and the lack of choice that he has Yeah, I mean look he had to play Jefferson Lerma midfielder in his back three Nathaniel Klein who like you know they'll only use it when they really need to Justin Devaney who's like being an impact sub so like yeah they're down to the bare bones and they have been for a while and he's getting more and more frustrated by it even like you saw his touchline demeanor in this game Glasner he was kind of every time the camera panned him he was just waving his arms like just to try and G up the players and get some energy from them and just like come on come on raise yourselves just find a bit more if you can and he couldn't I saw Marguerite at one point just sort of hunched on his hands on his knees.

38:25Like, they look dead, yeah. And he has been quite, you know, critical of the club. I've been at a few of his press conferences after games where it's really come out and he's said that we wasted an opportunity after the best season in the club's history to invest instead of save and we've kind of took the wrong option. and obviously after Selenezi as well there was the whole kick up, all the fuss created by Gahey and keeping him on deadline day so having said all that it's just extraordinary the job that Glasner has done and how well Palace have done up to this point and I think they've still got a really big run of games in January so it could derail their season really and I don't know what that would do for the future in terms of Oliver Glasner who's obviously his contract up at the end of the season so yeah slightly worrying times for Palace although you can't be critical of Glasner, of the team, of the players that's quite an odd situation to be in and I'm not sure you can be that critical of the club they could have done better business and more business in the summer, but they're also not like, there were also kind of issues going on behind the scenes in terms of John Texer selling his stake in the club and somebody new coming in.

40:00So it's been an awkward season for Palace so far. In terms of a win for Tottenham, this is definitely, I don't even need to ask the question, this is definitely in the relief category, this 1-0 win for Thomas Frank, isn't it? I'm not sure the belief is definitely there yet with this Tottenham side, but a big, big win for Frank in terms of picking up three points. It's cool. Isn't this counter-cultural? This is what this is. This is what we're seeing. Counter-cultural. Because Thomas Frank is not delivering what Spurs fans want to see. This was a very grown-up away performance. Their joint top in terms of results away from home.

40:39They cede possession. I mean, normally it's Crystal Palace who don't have any possession. but prepare to let Crystal Palace have all the possession and just play it out let the game play out knowing that Palace are a bit underperforming at the moment and don't have the manpower and keep it solid and you also frank acknowledge that Palace have not been good at set pieces of late so made sure set piece counted. It's proper grown-up logical football but it is not this is not what the fans want to see their team being at all. So you say relief but I think it's bitter relief for a lot of fans it's like three points almost don't count because it wasn't attractive in it The only thing I would say is that the word Richarlison came within a whisker of scoring a second like great goal chucked off by the smallest margin of offside and then Odeberg shut the post at the end.

41:49It could have been a 3-0 game and then you're going, this is a perfect away performance. And although the same problems are still there, they're the best in the league away from home and one of the worst at home and it's becoming increasingly difficult for them to get any results at home and that's where they really need to turn on the style a bit more and impress the fans and get some energy. You can play games like this away all day, like all season and get the points and no one's going to complain if they're doing a bit better at home that's the real problem for Thomas Frank yeah the other teams I mentioned there when I was talking about that table from the year Brentford another brilliant win for Keith Andrews Gregor just very quickly on him I mean no one saw this coming I've said this question a couple of times but he's doing a fantastic job so far at Brentford he is yeah and like I was at his press conference when he was sort of unveiled and I've interviewed him and he was so confident and Brentford was so confident about the change and it was like you know how can you lose your striker, your captain your goalkeeper and your manager all in one summer and then give the hand the reins to the former set-piece coach but they knew stuff that we didn't and they knew that Keith Andrews was a really promising coach and that he's actually a leader and you know they knew him as a person and a personality and like as I say having interviewed him you see it and he's someone who will command the room and have the respect of his players and he already he already had that so that wasn't an issue it wasn't like you're promoting some some guy from the from the shadows and they've got a better points return at this stage of the season than Brentford did last season under Thomas Frank they're playing they've almost like turned the dial even further in terms of like effective you know transitional counter-attacking football direct football like we knew that Brentford had various faces under Thomas Frank last season they could do they could press high they could sit in a low block they could do all these play in different ways this season Brentford are really really obdurate and then they play direct but they've got and Thiago has been incredible not just his goals the way he holds the ball up and links play and brings up someone else into play even for the first goal we sent Shadrath through like you know they kind of they kind of draw on the opposition leave that space for Thiago ball into him he chested it played a little one two and then a great through ball like that's just direct football but really smart and when they're doing it well they're very very hard to play against so being an outstanding start for Keith Andrews and for Brentford Yeah, damaging defeat for Bournemouth though in a bad run that they're on at the moment Reports on the Times website about Antoine Semenyo's future with lots of the big clubs circling with that£65m release clause set to be activated Anyone worried about Andoni Araiola after a great start to the season?

44:56Well, I don't feel we can... I mean, the amount of praise we have lavished upon him since he joined the club I feel... And also the fact, let's remember when he joined the results went against him. I mean, he had a very poor start. Yes, true, yeah. And he managed to relatively quickly instill a new philosophy at the club and a new playing style and the players bought into it. And then they went on that incredible run where they were almost the team to watch given the amount of energy they gave to the game. So I think we have to have faith in him to solve this current crisis. I think it is a mini crisis because his defense was completely uprooted and that's bound to have an impact.

45:44It was a delayed impact, sure, but it's still an impact from what happened in the summer. And so if they do, and the one consistent player is Semenya, so if they do sell him, which looks highly likely because that's their model, their model isn't to try and cling on to him at all. Their model is to make the cash They've just got to reinvest it wisely because they're looking a bit ragged. And I'm sure maybe just adding a bit of experience at the back, maybe that's what it would take. They just look like they need longer together now. But it sort of briefly clicked and then fell apart again. But I just, you know, he's been such an impressive manager that to claim he's lost touch or is failing, I don't think it's him.

46:41I think it's the impact of the summer transfer window. and sure his style of play does drain a team and maybe he doesn't have the resources to keep that going but I think he's intelligent enough to realise that if that's what's happening he will adapt the way they play. So it's sad to see them plummeting a little bit but I really would be very surprised if they were in the relegation conversation come April. Yeah, your game against Chelsea away from home up next. You wonder whether that might be the perfect game for Andoni, Iraiola and Bournemouth to get back on track. Let's just wrap up looking at some of the other matches with some of the teams near the bottom of the table.

47:23Although Sunderland, of course, still riding high in the top half. They played out a draw with Leeds, who continued their good form. Dominic Calvert-Lewin in the goals again in that penalty area between the sticks. Finding the back of the net continues his amazing run of form that he's on at the moment. Burnley picking up a point against Everton. not that hard when Everton seem completely unable to score any goals, which is probably not that surprising without Illiman and Dye and Kiernan and Drewsby Hall missing, as well as Jack Grealish. West Ham, if we're not worried about Bournemouth, we definitely are worried about West Ham.

47:57They started this run of games that I mentioned in the last show, where you start thinking they've got to pick up some points, and they didn't, losing at home to Fulham. Which of these performances, anything stand out for you guys in terms of either managers under pressure, teams that we're starting to get increasingly worried about or players performing or otherwise? I mean, the West Ham story is like, it's really an oh my God sort of thing, isn't it? I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if the West Ham owners now looking at Nottingham Forest and thinking, well, maybe sacking two managers in one season.

48:31Yeah, that's what we need to do because it's working for Forest now, having gone through the managers. at a rapid rate. I honestly... So what you're saying is West Ham need to hire Ange Postacoglu now. That's what we need, isn't it, to complete this narrative arc? That would be quite absolutely staggeringly wonderful from a journalistic point of view. But I wouldn't put it past them either. Come on. I mean, that tends to be... I'm not saying they'd support him, but I wouldn't be surprised if Nuno got the boot. No, I would. I would. I think Really? I wouldn't be surprised If Nuno quit He just As you said it before Gregor That's like That would be more likely If he walked and goes This is ruining my reputation The longer I'm here This is destroying my reputation As a good solid Premier League manager Which after Forrest Was riding high Like he left Forrest Being like Oh my god Why'd they sack Nuno What a job he's done What a manager What a brilliant performance And now he's going to West Ham And he's just As you've highlighted it before Gregor Stood on the sidelines looking furious and you can't decide whether it's with his players or with himself or with his agent thinking what the hell did I take this job for I mean I'm pretty sure it's his players like I think it's pretty stark for West Ham I think if they don't sign some defenders they'll go down I think and I think he knows that and the thing the problem we've raised is that they've got quite a lot of what you would call six pointers in the next few weeks so they need to add really quickly and I don't trust the club to do that so I think there's a good chance West Ham go down look you could say that they need a striker you could say that they could do with another sort of creative player you could say they definitely could do with another midfielder but I think they could muddle through I think you know Bowen can can win games for them Paqueta and Somerville like got a bit of pace and flair like just Fernandes is adding a bit more to that and sort of a dynamism attacking sort of threat from midfield Potts has emerged like in a team that he probably wouldn't have in any other season but he's emerged but they're just absolutely shocking defensively and he doesn't know where to turn and like you felt really sorry for Ole Skarls like he was crying on the pitch after this his mistake led to the goal to Jimenez's winner

51:04but you know he might feel some sympathy Nuno might have put an arm around him but I feel like he would rather do something else to the rest of his defenders most weeks because they're just miles off it like just errors they're just they're miles off it Gregor they're miles off it and they are definitely in a relegation scrap why do you think the way the owners respond is not to find a new manager because that's what they do I think it's glaringly obvious to anyone that Nuno has improved them he's made them better he's kept them they've been in a lot of these games they shouldn't have lost this game it was a shocking error at the end by someone who's a young player who probably shouldn't be in the team in this sort of situation when they're battling relegation that's not the time to bed someone into a team a young left back I was at the Brighton game they kind of lost so they threw away points like right of the death and there were some sort of questionable refereeing decisions but there's just so many errors that are that are giving away goals and throwing away points that you can't continue to do that and there's no there's not really anywhere else to turn defensively so I don't think there's anything Nuno can do about that I think he set up the team to give them a really good chance in a lot of these games.

52:34And they've played, they've kind of, you know, the game plan has been there for all to see, but they throw away points and throw away games because of mistakes. And that's what needs to change. Everything you say might be true, but that's not how the ownership works. They listen to disgruntlement in the stands and they think the way it's easy, rather than trying to build a defense in January, which is a hard thing to do no matter who you are, but I mean, who's going to come and join the team that's going to go down? So it's going to be really hard to sign what they would actually need. So the shortcut is to say, right, we'll get in the manager who we think can escape the drop.

53:18Even though everything you say might be true about Nuno, I think Nuno is a great coach and I think he's found it difficult to working with the resources he's got but the owners are going to think well we just need someone who can cope with the resources we've got Well good luck to them

53:42That's not good news for West Ham fans I'd say listening to that I don't disagree with Alison it's very hard to kind of to think about think logically when West Ham's owners are who we're talking about here but Nuno has improved them and I'd say he'll give them as good a chance of staying up as anyone the problem is glaringly obvious they need to improve the squad and that's been their fault of the ownership and yes they might try and instead of spending a lot of money in January change the manager and hope that they can get more out of the players they have but that would be a massive mistake in my view talking about a manager under pressure there let's finish with some praise for some managers many of them that we've already mentioned on this show based on Alison Rudd's column in the Sunday Times this weekend manager of the season so far Unai Emery Oliver Glasner and Regis Labris Alison you're turning into Gregor Robertson and giving three answers to one question here I'm going to have to push you to pick one they're all worthy candidates we've talked about Unai Emery and Glasner on this show and I've touched on Sunderland's brilliant start to the season.

54:53I'm going to have to ask you to pick one because I'm going to ask. If we're doing manager of the year, it would be Glasner. Manager of the first half of the 2025-26 season would be Unai Emery. But I come at that from the added perspective of thinking Villa was so lacking in refreshment over the summer. They looked stodgy for their first four or five games. They couldn't score. Okay, you could argue, well, that starts with the manager's fault. But I just think for a manager to take those ingredients and then give us the excitement of a title race we weren't expecting and to go on this incredible run is phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal.

55:38But it is colored by the fact that they started out by being so boring. maybe Unai Emery is the manager of the season brackets October to December maybe we break it down like that instead yeah the big one that's the one they all want Gregor if you're not going to jump in here and say it's Regis Lebris all the way I am so quick I'm going to give you the chance to do so it's got to be Reggie hasn't it it's got to be Reggie it's got to be Glasner this season this season this season manager of the season so far not the year Alisson's common was manager of the season so far 2020 2025-26 season so far it's got to be Reggie surely look he's certainly it would be him or Mikel Arteta we've not even mentioned the team who were top of the table Mikel Arteta yeah I don't know that's true don't say he's got it's about exceeding expectations don't say don't say he's got to win something because you can't win anything before December so no it would be Sunderland or you could throw Keith Andrews in there yeah I mean in terms of surprises they were favourite everyone's favourite for relegation like possibly even ahead of like Leeds and one or two of the the promoter teams like everyone thought that Brentford had rolled the dice and gone too far and he's he's proved everyone wrong so far so like yeah it would be him it would be in Le Bray because Sunderland have been it's been great to watch so gnarly and like just in your face and combative and like a lot of things it's not all been sexy football it's been it's been really hard to beat and really sort of really really competitive football with a touch of class as well and it's been great to watch and that's the way that a promoted team should do it because we've seen too many promoted teams try and you know play like Manchester City or play the same way that got them promoted and that's a mistake and Sunderland have epitomised the way that a promoted team should approach rejoining the Premier League so they've been brilliant but look at Fastenvilla Fastenvilla win against Arsenal it's got to be memory All bets are off I'm sure lots of listeners will have some views on the manager of the season so far do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk but we'll leave it there for now Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me.

58:13Thank you too for listening because of the way the games fall in the coming days. We are going to be back with the next regular show on January the 2nd. That's Friday instead of Thursday. So we'll see you then and until then have a very happy new year.