Which teams had the best and worst transfer window?

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1:25madness. On today's show we'll ask whether things are getting out of hand, will the bubble ever burst and we'll pick our favourite moves of the summer. We'll also discuss Arsenal and Aston Villa after the game on Monday and take a quick look at the weekend's action too. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Arsenal, it's Gary Jacob, the former Millwall Marseille and Ireland striker Tony Cascarino and the former footballer. Turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual. Team, today's a great day. The transfer window has closed.

2:00No one more excited than Gary Jacob, one of our esteemed reporters. Shorter days, Tom. You had a very, very long couple of days, Monday and Tuesday. We've had it all a long week. Yeah, you, Pete Rutzler, Paul Joyce and the rest of the team working very, very hard. I was waiting for the opportunity to say Tony Cascarino's mood and deadline day been put in half a long time ago. Well, we're going to have a bit of fun in the second half of the show, wondering how much clubs might have paid for Gregor and Tony if they were around today. I'm thinking big, big, big money. But that's in the second half of the show.

2:35We'll have a bit of fun. Let's get to the serious stuff first. Gary, just set the store out for us. You've been doing this job for such a long time. You do a lot of work covering clubs and the actual action, but you do do an awful lot of work covering transfers for the times. I've not been doing this job as long as you, but I have been doing it long enough to feel like this summer felt like it had all just gone crazy. Potty, isn't it? The fees have gone potty. The valuations, the lack of players, the kind of scrabbling for players you think are not worth the money. And it feels like a lot of panic.

3:08You feel like a lot of panic. Yeah, I think you feel like there's a lot of people trying to play catch up. There's people trying to bend the financial rules. there are people who are doing side deals between them and the kind of Premier League you can see all that going on and then and then you just think or you know the fees is just crazy really yeah so and it's obviously only within the Premier League because the clubs in Europe can't possibly take any of those fees it's only within the Premier League and where does it go and then the other question is what are the agent fees at the end of this so we'll find out that in February or February or March what are some of the fees that the clubs are playing to secure that player because we've seen in the case of Arsenal, certainly they've pulled out of deals because they don't want to pay the agent for it.

3:50Did the World Cup play a part? Obviously a bigger World Cup than ever before this season for all of us, I think, and fans as well feel like football never ends. It sort of delays it, doesn't it? It feels like that kind of unsettles it in terms of people don't get deals done earlier. But I'm not sure necessarily on the prices. I was just saying the prices are just... Where do you think that's come from? Because as you say, there's so many big deals. Plucking figures that up in there. I mean, does anyone think the lap is worth 50 million? That's not to be disrespectful to him. And people will say, well, 30 was undervalued.

4:19But he hasn't gone up by 20 million in a year from work performances. So they feel like the fees themselves are almost like slightly irrelevant now because if you're trading amongst themselves, it's actually what your net spending is. And obviously, the one big factor in all of this, obviously, there's always there's often been a market where players can go whether it was Qatar, China and obviously now Saudi and that Saudi money has helped Man City Chelsea move people on who let's be honest may not be worth that money in a normal market so that's kind of injected fresh cash into the system that sets the stall out really nicely I think Gregor you wrote a comment piece that's on the Times website today I normally read out the headline but I think it'll give it away your thoughts on the transfer window

5:08Gregor Robertson: it's all just getting a bit obscene isn't it like we're getting used to hearing that the Premier League spent more than you know La Liga, Liga and Bundesliga, Serie A combined but they spent a billion more than those four leagues combined this year and obviously the biggest shift has been the intra Premier League spending it's 1.7 billion and that's double what it was two years ago so that's the biggest shift it's like the Premier League now operates within its own distinct economy and we've kind of always known that the Premier League operated on its own playing financially but there was still more trading between the Premier League and other other European leagues in particular and but now the truth is and we see this because of a lot of signing some of which Gary have mentioned you can't sell your club your players particularly elite players to any clubs outside the Premier League because they don't have the money yeah and you know Enzo Fernandes is the biggest case in point I think it's remarkable that the guy who's the first player to go for two fees in excess of£100 million is, first of all, is Enzo Fernandes.

6:13Gregor Robertson: He's not something you would put on the highest plane of players operating in European or world football. Certainly, I wouldn't. And secondly, on both occasions, the first time when he went from Benfica to Chelsea, and then now going from Chelsea to Man City, no one else would have touched him with a barge pole at that price. So, as Gary says, the fees, I'm not sure it's true to say they're just being plucked from thin air. It's like the spending regulations that operate within the Premier League have incentivised trading, they've inflated the prices, the TV revenue deals are so far ahead of any other club in Europe that they just have such wealth compared to anyone else.

6:58Gregor Robertson: It's kind of driven up a little bubble that's operating in this country alone where, you know, to comply with spending rules, these are the prices and everyone else just accepts it. Yeah, Tony? It's Dizzy Rascal. Bonkers! Bonkers! I was thinking, Tony, this joke only works if you didn't say it. Come on! Yeah, I mean, I'm just, I reckon, what the boys said is, you know, if you had a bad season in years gone by or an indifferent season, you wasn't going for more money. Well, there's a number of cases that players have. Yeah. And as Greg alluded to with the costs of, you know, obviously the revenue for winning the Premier League and all the money that filters down right to the bottom teams.

7:40No one can compete with that. But no one can compete with the cost of going to a football match. You go to a football match in France, it's nowhere the same price as it in England. Yeah. It's a lot more expensive here. So the revenue is generated again. Prize money. You know, it just, it is, it's something that, look, It feels like we've got like six Abramovic's now in the Premier League. You know, where there's a lot of people spending money. And it is a bubble of the Premier League. Because there isn't that competition elsewhere. And by the way, just on Moresca, sorry, on Fernandes' deal. It's obviously, Moresca's really wanted him.

8:13You know, he just was desperate. That's the one I want. He's identified a plan. That's clearly what's happened. Because I don't think City would have done that deal without Moresca being the manager. He had him at Chelsea. but so

8:24Gregor Robertson: but everyone just everyone's sort of a post to when you when you say this is all obscene and getting out of hand it's the market it's always been obscene it's the market it's the market stupid and like and there's but it feels like the laws of supply and demand have been subverted a little bit because you know you're right all you need is one buyer for you know everyone compares what Johnny did last week to like the housing market all you need is one person willing to pay the price but ordinarily there's like you know in years gone by there's other bidders in the background who are pushing that price up.

8:55Gregor Robertson: And we've seen that in some deals, but there's so many now. Delapse one. Nicholas Jackson at 65 million is another. Savio at 75 going to 85 is another. No one else is paying. Contemplating paying that sum of money, not just within the Premier League. So that's what feels like there's been a big shift. And that comes back to the point Gary's making about the desperation and the panic. When you're operating in your own world and some of this is about having players who are Premier League proven. That's the thing that's being trotted out all the time now. But Christ, there's no wit or intelligence involved here.

9:31Gregor Robertson: Remember the days when Brentford and Brighton and Bournemouth were held up as the kind of the paragons of how to operate a recruitment? It feels quaint now. It's like all the guys, all the investment in the data models and the brains and the, you know, the intelligence to go and find a player in a market and polish up a rough diamond or whatever, I mean, good. most of the big clubs now have just gone forget that we'll just buy the ready made package Gary on all the I think there's two clubs aren't they who sort of slightly bucked the trend perhaps United and Arsenal said look we're not taking part in this yeah you know to be fair to both of them they've sort of said these valuations on these players are too much although Arsenal probably would have would have played it for Algevres they would have played it but for the other type of players they were looking at they wouldn't and you look at United they've also kind of said okay well we've wasted money in the past we don't want to, you know, United are still paying for the excesses of the pass and all the multiple managers and all the players they've got on the bill.

10:27So they've obviously had a slightly different approach as well. But like you say, he only needs one or two clubs and then it doesn't matter what you do because we're going to do something else. Like Abramovich did years ago with, and he blew Wenger out of the water, you know, and Wenger got annoyed by it, didn't he? With Chelsea coming in the market and saying, you know, financial doping, he called it.

10:46Gregor Robertson: Well, there's one point I should make as a counterpoint, which is fair, is that actually when Akira Maguire, a football finance expert, made this point, that when today's purchasing power, so inflation and the revenues that clubs earn now, are taken into account, I think transfers like Alan Shearer's£15 million move from Blackburn to Newcastle in 1996, or Veron's move from Lazio to Man United in 2001, are way out in front of all the transfers that have occurred, any of them, that have occurred this summer. Because, like, although the sums look obscene, and they are, the revenues are extraordinary now.

11:23Gregor Robertson: And the investment from owners and the commercial deals, all of that is stratospheric. So it does feel like there's a shift taking place, but actually, in relative terms, there have been more extraordinary deals in the past. So the inflation on transfers is extraordinary. If you go back, and Gary, you've got a computer in front of you. What was one million? 1 million for Trevor Francis in 79. What does that equate today? What would you think? Inflation. What would you say? Just general inflation. What would 1 million be today? We'll use the break to find out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That would be a question, Tony.

11:58It's 6.5 million. Really? And you compare to transfer fees that have gone to 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, plus 100. Yeah. It's amazing that I don't know how to market. I mean, look, obviously, you touched on just there, Tom. The revenue that clubs are generating now is huge. And Tottenham's a great example of that, how they've been competitive because they do so many sideshows and things that happen at the Tottenham Stadium, plus the 60 ,000 new stadium. The cost that it is to go and see his buzz, it's one of the most expensive clubs in the league. Yeah. Well, we'll get into the specifics in just a second, but should you carry just a final word from you on...

12:35Tony mentioned the bubble. I've mentioned the bubble. Greg has just mentioned there, like, the revenue growth. Is this going to stop anytime soon? We're going to see the same in January? Well, January is always a difficult market, but history doesn't suggest it's going to stop. It just suggests it's going one way. But I think the other sort of interesting is something, in the past, we've been slightly dubious by clubs in Turkey who have advantageous tax positions. They go for players who don't want to go. But this summer, we've seen quite a few big players go there, obviously, and they're chasing Richarlison.

13:02They've got Salah. I know they're older players, but when players are on very large sums, like someone like Martinelli's on 200 grand, his options to go are so limited. Where can he go? And so either Arsenal are subsidising it to a very healthy degree, same with Gabi Hesos who went to Spain, who's on a very large sum as well, or you're finding a market where someone can pay the wage. And those are very few and far between. Even if the tax advantages in Italy also there's an advantage, it doesn't compete to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. There's no tax in Saudi Arabia. Let's get into some of the specifics then because we've talked really interestingly there about the state of the window and I'm sure listeners and viewers on YouTube have probably got views as well.

13:41So do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. But on City then, obviously£125 million spent and everyone kind of going, oh, right, that's interesting. But they've got, they've lost Rodri, widely considered one of the best players in the world, if not the best player in the world, won the World Cup for Spain, lost Bernardo Silva. They've now got a 300 plus midfield of Buadi, Enzo Fernandes, Elliot Anderson. Paul Hurst wrote after the deadline closed that Enzo Maresca the club have gone that is a squad good enough challenging Arsenal do we think that is a squad good enough challenging Arsenal Tony I'll start with you I think Paul Hurst is absolutely right of course they have got a squad it's not a guarantee but it's an incredible full of quality and look they've lost Rodri which was a big loss to a player that struggled recovering from a serious knee injury and for large portions wasn't playing the level as he has done in years gone by.

14:37Has an amazing end of the season, then a great World Cup. But they've replaced it. I mean, replacing them and them three players. Yeah. You know, if you're the owners of the football club and the people behind the recruitment are going, well, we're okay these deals. You're sort of saying we're okay in them. You've got a challenge. Yeah. You've got a challenge with that. And that does at least come back to the point about, Greg, you made about proven Premier League players, is that no, they don't immediately replace Rodri. But in Elliot Anderson and Enzo Fernandes, you have got two elite central midfielders from the Premier League that you can just go, boom, there you go.

15:09That's pretty good. It might not be Rodri. They're different players. Every player is different. It does at least give Enzo Mureska that facility, doesn't it? Do you still think, you mentioned in the preview show that you're not necessarily convinced that the post-Pep era will be as simple as some people like myself have suggested that it is with a quality squad?

15:26Gregor Robertson: No, I don't think it'll be as simple as some people are suggesting, but there's no doubt they've strengthened enormously I mean Anderson Boadi and Fernandes that's about 300 million pounds you can't say anything other than that's a really strong midfield and that was an area of the pitch they needed to strengthen and the impressive thing from Man City's point of view this year is as you say the net spend is actually really low considering all the players that they've shipped out for extraordinary fees Savio, Marmouche, Nico Gonzalez Reinders, Aki, Trafford.

16:08Gregor Robertson: Selling is as important as the investment now. So that was a big, sort of another part of the sort of broader conversation is that a lot of the, despite there being a record spend, actually the net spend is lower than in previous years. Simon's Chelsea, Gregor. Simon's Chelsea, right? Yeah, good at selling. Absolutely. Just before we move on from City, Gregor, I wanted to give you a little bit more praise. Illiman and Dai, another player. We talked a lot about Michael Alise and you making that shout early on in his career about how he was destined for the top. Ilman Undai is another player I remember you telling me about this boy's special.

16:38He's got his move to a big club. He'll be playing in the Champions League. It's a wonderful story, a wonderful journey, isn't it, for him?

16:44Gregor Robertson: It's a great story, yeah. I mean, someone who... He was a bit of a boy wonder, actually, when he was growing up in France. You know, there's a story about him being on, like, being labelled the next sedan on the front of a local newspaper or he was on a TV show doing tricks and stuff. But then he moved over to England. He had loads of trials with big Premier League clubs and was rejected. Ended up at Boreham Wood. He only played a few games, a few minutes even, for Boreham Wood. Got a move to Sheffield United. Went on loan to Hyde United. So he really had to put in the hard yards. And he got a bit of fortune when Paul Heckenbottom, who was the academy manager, got the job at Sheffield United and he really showed a lot of faith in them.

17:31Gregor Robertson: And then from there he became like Sheffield United's star boy and the trajectory has been like that. But, you know, some really nice details about when you speak to his former coaches and stuff, you kind of, they often bring up music. That sounds a really strange thing to say, but they say that he looked like, the way he runs and he drops a shoulder and his movement, his balance, there's like a rhythm to it. And then he found out that his dad was like an artist and there's videos of him on YouTube of like practicing dribbling to musical soundtracks in the woods in France. And that really is part of his kind of feel for the game.

18:05Gregor Robertson: So he even said, you know, I've worked my whole life for this. And it is a kind of a really good story that shows that, you know, with hard work and perseverance, you know, you can make it from the bottom right to the top. And also probably one of the few fees that wasn't massively inflated in terms of his deal. And Hurstey makes the point that it's something that they haven't got. In his piece, he makes the point that he's, you know, in that tight spaces. They haven't got that type of player. So he's actually going to be really valuable to them. He's not just going to be a squad player. He's actually going to be something different.

18:33A wonderful story. And make sure you're listening to our EFL Extra Show every week. Gregor Robinson, always the first to pick out the gems in the football league. Come on, I can't be nice to you every now and again. Especially when you get another good shout like that one. And talking about Ndi, leaving Everton. Gary, you mentioned there players in tight spaces. Man City have kind of given Everton their player who did do that for a little bit in Jack Grealish. But as our colleague Paul Joyce wrote, not maybe the strongest end to the window that Everton fans would have wanted. Not just following Balogun, turning them down right on deadline day, but losing and die.

19:08I think everyone wants Jack Grealish to do well, don't they? Everyone loves seeing Jack Grealish at his best on a football pitch, but that is not a guarantee. I'd say Everton fans may be right to be a little bit worried, would you say, Gary? Absolutely. I think Moise, selling your best player at the end of the window and not replacing him. Obviously, the Balogun one was just a complete sort of shambles all round. And then also the issue with the owners selling your best young kid or potentially selling him. Harrison Armstrong. And then the kick back to that. So it leaves Moisey with one hand behind his back.

19:41Yeah. Interesting. In terms of other teams to mention, I'll just run for a few. You can grab on anyone you want. Manchester United, lots of praise for them recently and on Monday's show about their midfield and attacking options. But no defensive additions ending into the final day. no left back no centre back strength added Sunderland signing Malik Fafana looks quite an interesting and exciting one obviously Gary Yu and Pete Rutzler and Martin Hardy were keeping tracks of which plane was he getting on where was he going and things like that didn't go to Crystal Palace Crystal Palace probably another team like Everton that are sat there going we've got Ben Chilwell back have we okay that's fine I mean Palace like Trishnye do deal late and sort of Quinter Timber was going somewhere else and suddenly he's going to Palace it felt I felt like they've underachieved this summer.

20:29I think they've also got the issue with Mateta still, who's going to be out for a month in his last year contract dispute. It feels like a tricky time for Sarge at the top and trying to kind of change the style a little bit. It's a bit more possession-based. Loses defenders. They've obviously lost quite a few over the last year. In the distance, you could see maybe next summer, Warton going. It feels a little bit messy. Can I just add in, is it me, but is it a bit daft to think that your last deal when it's on transfer day, the final day, and it's late in the day that that deal could fall apart?

21:06It's very, very possible. As in for the Balogun deal. Balogun deal. How come it's been got so late? Well, I think obviously the problem is they were hoping to get Richarlison and Richarlison put all these cryptic messages on social media about how he wanted to go to Everton. and people were kind of making that not happen. I don't trust what players are doing on social media as a given. No. You know what I mean? You've got to make a firm call that we need to get this deal done at least a day before. But I suppose as soon as Man City call up, the deal to Tottenham goes, then Richarlison's deal goes, and then there's a kind of knock-on effect.

21:39We should mention as well, Chelsea losing Enzo Fernandes but not getting Kamara in in terms of a midfielder. Another deal that falls through, as you say, on deadline date. Does that hamper Xabi Alonso quite a lot? We'll talk about their game with Arsenal this weekend. Or did it feel like looking at them, they were kind of planning without Enzo Fernandes anyway? What do we think? Well, yeah, definitely that. They knew he was going. They just would have been like where we are with other deals. It's got to the final day and it's fell apart. You mentioned Tottenham. Mikhailo Mudrik, Tosin Adarabayo.

22:10Does it go into the list of slightly desperate Tottenham transfers? Tony, you're laughing. Gregor, you've got a right smile. I can't believe that Mudrik has gone to Tottenham. We've not played him for two years. Now, the manager's had him before, hasn't he? Yeah. Deservey's had him under his wing. Yeah. So he obviously has a big, you know... He said he could win the Ballon d 'Or one day. Yeah. Not this time, he hasn't. It's a massive... He said that in the past. I mean, Matthias Till hadn't started the season right, so I can get why he's looking at another wide-left player.

22:38Gregor Robertson: For me, the biggest absurdity about that transfer is that there's an option to buy him for£75 million. We're talking about the inflated values and whatnot. I mean, there's nothing more to say. The options to buy are really elite, aren't they? Like the Garnaccio one as well. You're like, what? Sorry? How much? 50 odd million? 60 million? But yeah, you're completely like... Which is going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely crackers. Fulham, four players from Real Madrid. Who saw that coming? So, I mean, let's round it all off then with some of our kind of picks. Maybe a lending with a little bit more positivity.

23:12We're all kind of scratching our heads and baffled and a little bit picked out some teams there who are probably frustrated should we do I'll pick a baffled one yeah go on Hull City yes they get promoted they pay all their players bonuses going back to bonuses and everything now and they can't buy anybody because of financial fair play yeah and then a month later they're going to spend 100 million yeah going into a new season how does that work

23:35Gregor Robertson: 18 new players yeah how does that work what do we think come on Greg get me out of jail what do we think of the owner's tweet Greg he's seen a good gag there hasn't he yeah Oh yeah, the one about Sergio, yeah, yeah. He was quite active himself on deadline day was Ilyich Ali. I mean, look, he works in TV. He knows how to spin a narrative and ramp up the drama. He's dubbed the Turkish Simon Cowell. But yeah, he said, you know, on deadline day, like, you know, readying the whole city fans for a very busy time between 10 and 11 o 'clock. And then I think they added five of six players on deadline day in that period.

24:14Gregor Robertson: But as I say, bringing them up to 18. and then he kind of spun a joke that Sergei Joukinovich made after winning promotion, which was, you know, roughly speaking, you know, I came in to keep Hull on the championship. I failed. I got us to the Premier League. He said, I promised to sign 15 players. I failed. I signed 18. It's like, Jesus, where are we going with this? You know what I mean? As I say, I can forgive him because this is literally his line of work. but there does seem to be a bit of a kind of it's a show in itself the football's irrelevant actually what happens once they're signed it felt a bit like your annoying uncle ruining your gag didn't it you know like shut up don't do it even once the players are signed it's almost irrelevant like you can you can come back and look at I think some people make the point which is a good point that this is part of the thing about signing a Premier League proven player if you sign someone who you're aware of like Man City sign Elliot Anderson and Fernandes and they're flops then people go people can be like you know you can give them stick for that you can give the club you can criticise the club for that if the same people that you don't really know about which a lot of these clubs are doing particularly promoter clubs then it's like oh it's a bit of a gamble so like there's this strange kind of I don't know relationship with with where the players are coming from and their profiles and and and support or sort of attitudes towards it all well I've got a whole player listed in this next category.

25:41I wanted to talk about our favourite transfer of the transfer window. We can go back. I mean, mine's not particularly exciting, Gary, so I'm going to swoop in at the end with the left field views as I often do. Favourite transfer of the summer transfer window. We don't have to do deadline day. You can broaden it out. Gregor, I'm going to start with you.

25:59Gregor Robertson: Well, I've already said Hayden Hackney. I love, like I said before, we like, I love it when players are the best in the championship and get the opportunity. And it's happening more and more now. But I think you'll be a really good player for Ever and actually despite the doom and gloom at Ever and I still think David Moyes will make them comfortably safe. Daniel Munoz to Forrest is great as well because like it's just a you know a perfect fit. Ola Aina has been brilliant at the start of the season I do wonder what it means for him and we'll talk about whether he'd maybe move on but he hasn't but Munoz is like was the most important player arguably in Oliver Glasner's system at Crystal Palace and to sign him and plug him in and play is going to be big.

26:42Gregor Robertson: And I've already mentioned Indai, so I think they're probably my three favourites. Well, obviously, because I was sat next to Greg at Brighton when I talked about Belieber for the very first time and I'm still hanging on to that transfer. I really like that transfer to Manchester United. In CISO, I like Hoopswich. I thought that was a really... Because he's a strange player. If you watch him, he's really gifted as in boy he can do things that not many players can do and like I was watching him at Old Trafford and I know they eventually lost the game in moments he could look like he could be a Manchester United player so I thought them two stood out obviously Barcola going to Liverpool I'm really hopeful that one works because they've had a couple of big ones that so far haven't paid dividends so they would be my three Gary?

27:33I quite like the Danny Wilbert one really? yeah just because the blocus at United then at Arsenal, he's kind of not quite, you know, everyone's got, not sure about him. He's done fantastically well at Brighton and he's got himself another big move. And I think he lives the game currently off the pitch. And I think he's a really intelligent guy on the pitch. And I think, you know, he's not going to clearly play every game. He played minutes, but I think it's just a nice story of a player who you would expect is kind of going to retirement on the south coast and now suddenly he's got a kind of other difference.

28:08And the other one, I think I quite like replacing Munoz, I forgot to say, Anand Kalalic. But they say in Belgium that he could play right wing as well as obviously right back. So I think that's going to be a really interesting player. And Palace have actually done some interesting business and goes over, they've brought in by all accounts as a really, really talented kid. So I think those two, certainly the right wing back and obviously in that system he's going to play, I think that could be quite I think Barclay's arguably the most important

28:38Gregor Robertson: because there's so much talk about the amount of money spent in the Premier League and like its financial dominance but we've also spoken a lot about how many of the biggest stars in the Premier League have moved on in recent years and it's still like the one kind of chink in the arm is they're not really able to the Premier League's not really able to attract the biggest stars a lot of the time Bradley Barclay is a major star he's won back-to-back Champions League titles he's coming from Paris Saint-Germain he's playing for France who were all wax and lyrical about until they I don't know threw it away hit the death in the summer he's potentially a superstar yeah to be fair none of us have gone for the obvious I'm sure you're going to go there well no I should say as well for listeners and viewers I did stipulate that we're not allowed to pick Mamadou Sangare at Brentford because basically I think Gregor you picked him as the deal already in the preview and after a couple of games, everyone's going, this guy's amazing.

29:35So I should just get him in there. Other ones that I wanted to mention, he's still injured at the moment, but I'm very excited to see Johan Manzambi in the Premier League. Aston Villa from Freiburg. Matthias Fernandes Pardo, early discussions with Martin Hardy, who covers Newcastle. There's some excitement around his move to Newcastle, 51 million. And the whole one I'm interested in is Brook Norton Cuffey, the right-sided player, right wing-back, right back, really strong, really quick. I saw him on loan at Lincoln City. You'll be unsurprised to hear. that's where my journey with him begins but he's had a really interesting career started at Arsenal had some interesting loan moves in Serie A I think he could be a brilliant player in the Premier League for Hull if he gets some minutes just to finish to wrap us up should we do a quick fire biggest winners biggest losers in terms of teams because I think it might kick us into part two of the show I'm going to say biggest winners Bournemouth do you know why?

30:23they only did four signings Maximum spent£25 million on Antonio Silva from Ben Pica and I was watching their game with Everton last weekend thinking got Tavenir down the wing Evan Nielsen up front Cliver on the other side Alex Scott in midfield yes they've changed their manager but they've just gone do you know what we're pretty good as it is and I really really like that because it also makes my job a little bit easier because I don't have to do as much research into new players because I'm like Bournemouth they're still good they're still the same so Bournemouth are my big winners of the transfer window winners who would your winner be?

30:54Gregor Robertson: I'm reluctant to go for the teams that just throw the most amount of money at it and like so I'm going for I'd have to go for Brentford because, yes, Sangari has looked really impressive. Callum Wilson's a good pickup for a backup when you're going to play Thiago every week. Jadon Anthony was like one guy who looked like he was capable of playing at a level for Burnley last season. I've got my question marks about Juve defensively, but I think in the right sort of system, perhaps, where they almost play in a three-man defence and he's got more of a licence to roam on the left, he could be really good for them.

31:31Gregor Robertson: and Schuster, centre-half, with a good reputation. So they look like they've got a really strong squad, like a strong, deep squad, and arguably they're going to take another step forward. And the other thing about those two picks in terms of winners is that Bournemouth have been ravaged in terms of players sold recently. So some of those players I mentioned keeping them. And Thiago as well at Brentford. Tony, you mentioned before we came on air, you're stunned in some ways that he's still there, as much as you're delighted for Brentford. Yeah, because he was second-top goal scorer last season, led the line brilliantly okay well cut didn't play as many minutes but I think he's a terrific player I was surprised that a big club didn't go enough for a lot of money for him I think he's he makes Brentford tick as well with Shardé on the left who's another talent that's moving on I mean moving on in his career as he can get better but Thiago still a very young man I think he's not he's obviously not the Haaland type we're talking about leading the line and just goal scorer I think he's as good as anybody in the Premier League Any other winners, big winners?

32:30Ipswich. Brighton, maybe. Brighton and Ipswich. This is the hipster's answer this is, lads. Absolutely fantastic. Bournemouth, Brentford, Ipswich. Tony, you elaborate on Ipswich first. Well, Gary O 'Neill's gone in there and he's made a huge amount of change. And some players he's known from before. I mentioned Ncinto coming in, which I thought was a really clever signing. They've moved players on. I just think, from what I've seen in the opening two games, they're going to score goals. Now, whether they can keep clean sheets enough to win them enough points. But I do think Ipswich will have a go at a lot of sides this year.

33:02Yeah. And Gary, just to finish on Brighton. Yeah, Brighton, you know, the new blade was probably going a year ago. Sol van Heek, you know, last year of his contract, got some good money for those deals. And Aziz could be an interesting signing. Vuscovic from Tottenham could suddenly be worth a lot of money in time. And I think they've just been under the radar. And I think they've done well.

33:24Gregor Robertson: It's interesting that, like, no one seems to be giving anyone who's just spending bucket loads of cash and credit Men's City have done incredible business we know that but you're right to mention we're fighting a good fight we're fighting a good fight on the game podcast yeah I don't know like everyone's now saying oh look Chelsea has made what was it 519 million pounds in sales generated this window they've just spent 2 billion quid in the last 4 years like I don't give you what credit is there for having more money than anyone else in the room and just throwing it at like half of Brighton's recruitment staff Half of those players and then going around Europe and going, you're the best, you're the best.

33:59Gregor Robertson: What credit do you deserve for that? That's more like it. Honestly, whilst I was away, I was very worried at that show you hosted, giving loads of praise to Chelsea. It's not just Chelsea. It's not just Chelsea. Sorry, Elon Musk. He's back. He's back. We're going to pick it up in part two after just a quick break and talk about maybe some of the sides that were a little bit underwhelming. We'll talk about Arsenal and Aston Villa. Maybe there's a link there with their game on Monday too. But let's have a little quiz question. Into the break, Arsenal's Mikel Arteta became on Monday the second person to play and manage over 250 Premier League games, alongside who?

34:31Find out after the break.

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35:51Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tony Cascarino, Gary Jacob and Gregor Robinson, all heads down, scratching their heads, still trying to work out the answer to the quiz question. The other person alongside Mikel Arteta to have played and managed at least 250 Premier League games was, have you worked it out? No. Mark Hughes. They're fuming, they're absolutely fuming. Mark Hughes played 297 Premier League games. Managed 466 Mikel Arteta, matching him. We'll come back and talk about Mikel Arteta's side, Arsenal, and their win at Aston Villa in just a second.

36:29Just to mention a couple of excellent pieces on the Times website. We're not talking about the brilliance and genius of Lionel Messi today because we don't have Paul Hurst with us. He's a man who's followed Messi and Argentina at recent tournaments. He's written a brilliant tribute after the great man retired from the international stage. You can find that on the Times website now. The Women's Super League kicks off this weekend. And Kit Sheppard has done a really interesting preview all about the Women's World Cup and about how that will overhang this WSL season and also the strength and spending of the London City Lionesses.

36:57So go and check that out too. Before we get back into Arsenal and Aston Villa, should we have a laugh? Why not? Let's have a little bit of a laugh, Gary, shall we? We've got two former... Oh, I haven't got enough tracksuits. Superstars. Two former superstars. We talked about how inflated this market is. Talked about pure profit, young up-and-coming superstars. We've got Gregor Robertson and Tony Cascarino with us. let's work out how much we would have paid for you two if you'd have been playing today. I'm going to start with Gregor. Thanks, Tom. I'm going to put it in. 21 years old, two good seasons in the Championship with Nottingham Forest, young up-and-coming defender, left-footed.

37:33Left-footed adds at least 20 million, doesn't it, these days? Homegrown. So you'd have been pure profit, wouldn't you, for Forest? Yeah. Yeah. 44 games by the age of 21. And what do we reckon? What's your Greek like? What do we reckon In this market We getting him up To double figures Ten

37:53Gregor Robertson: Ten quid Five Five million With some add-ons When did you have Your bad injury Gregor What age is that He was fresh He was lean So we're talking about A really young Fresh five Scottish under 21 International Oh it's got to be ten Ten mil Probably a bit more That's a bit excessive Also you've always Said to me as well You've said on this show as well about the modern football actually you know playing inside on the ball you were quite good could have moved into midfield the Scottish Nico only wanted maybe seven and a half been good in the left of a back three good injured very good didn't you yeah left in a back three no in all seriousness like you know I remember when Gary Megson came to Norwich and he said he almost signed me when he was a West Brom manager there was something about Norwich when I was there I think one thing you could say like regardless of whether you're talking about me or not is that it takes less kind of you don't need to show as much as you know for as long or as consistently for a club to take a chance that's what I mean I'm being serious 10 Tony's going 10 but if they had bought me then it would have been a waste of money talking today's value today's value so 21 year old young 10 quid we'll sell on that 10 million quid I should have got in touch with your partner and your mum to see how much they think you would have been worth back in the day they'd have got a good idea they'd go low they'd go Mum and dad would always go wrong.

39:17I was wondering about like five to seven million with a load of add-ons, potential add-ons. I would have taken it. Sell on fees, sell on fees. Now it's time for the big man. I had a matching clause. Yeah?

39:27Gregor Robertson: So they can retown you back. Look, the big thing is you'd have an eight-year contract and you'd have been set for life. Yeah, but you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't have been here. You could have been talking football with us, John. That's just something. Let's move on to Cass, come on. The big one, the big man. Gary, what do we reckon? So I've got a couple of different stages of your career, Tony. So you're 25 moving on from Gillingham, right? Yeah. 78 goals in 200 games. Great story as well. You'd have been good for, we'd have been doing profiles of Cass, wouldn't we, back in the day, you know, good, detailed, you know, the hairdresser from non-league up and coming.

39:59What do we reckon? You'd have got a good 5, 10 from Gillingham, this is, up to Will. Someone like Moise or Nuno would have taken a part, and Moise would have liked your background, and Nuno, the focal point of that attack. You could be like the Chris Wood. You could be like my background. I'm going to sign a flower. I really like his background. Or we can go, when you're moving on from Millwall, after that amazing story, you're 28. I mean, listen. 27 I was when I joined. If Liam De Lappe is going for 50 million quid, we've got to be getting about 75 for our big tone, haven't we? Proven goal scorer.

40:36Played at a World Cup. Played at a World Cup. I'm slapping a 70 million price tag on your head, Tony.

40:42Gregor Robertson: At Millwall? Yeah. That's beefy for the championship. Yeah, but he's just got unpromoted. Just got promoted, yeah. Yeah, we were top five when we left. What league were Gillingham in when you were there? League One. League One, okay. And then I went to Millwall. We got promoted and then I left when we were promoted. I played a year for Millwall in the old First Division. A year and a bit. The other thing you've got to say is you played alongside Teddy Sheringham. Teddy Sheringham now would have been... He'd have been over 100 million. Yeah. So you've then got the factor of the bloke who plays next to him, half it.

41:17You know, a top... He's not having that. He's not having that. It's a Malcolm and Weiss and half it. He's not having that. Sorry for the oldest. I'm not having that. No, but didn't we have that with... Or is it Agnes Depp? No, but didn't we have that with Shearer and Sutton? Shearer went for 15 million and Sutton went for 10 for Chelsea. So I'm two-thirds of the fee of Sheringham. Yeah, so you tell me what you'd pay for sharing them. Oh, I definitely would. Yeah, it would be 100 million. Right, so 70. That's what I said. That's what I said. 70 million pounds. Tony Cascarino. I would have played for a few years, and then I definitely wouldn't have been here.

41:49You definitely wouldn't have been here. Which manager would you want to play under? The top manager I would have needed was the guy that was going to get the ball in the box. You know, out wide in the box, I attack it. But I wouldn't have liked to play without a partner. Yeah. Do you know what? That was important to me. get your boots back on. Balogun deal fell through. Moisey might still take you now, Tony. I should just... Well, it's a bit of a weird one. I should just say as well for listeners, to be honest, if Gregor Robertson was moving on deadline day, if he was as bad with his deal sheets and his, you know, signing his contract as he is with getting his copy in, the deal probably wouldn't have gone through.

42:22Got there, didn't it? Yeah. In the paper of the day? Just... Just about. Anyway, back to the football after that fun and games. And there was some actual football this week as well as transfer dealings as well. But it does link us nicely back into transfers and things. Arsenal won Aston Villa nil at Villa Park on Monday. An intriguing game, this one. But just coming back to transfers, because we didn't mention either of them in particular detail. Gary, you've written an excellent piece about Arsenal, the Premier League champions today. Is there a slight lingering feeling with them that they've ended this window off the back of finally winning the league?

42:57Not quite as strong as they could have been. Yeah, I think if your supporter is going, well, the club talked about wanting a dynasty the club one talked about wanted kind of exploit the opportunities of other clubs in transition an ambitious cycle after the champions league final i think you'd probably get to this stage and think we came up short you know we didn't get the forward we wanted we didn't get the left winger we wanted fair enough they didn't want overpay maybe they couldn't find the type of players at the level they wanted but then you have to ask the questions about when do they start the process what diligence do they do why were they still talking to Alvarez when if he doesn't want to come to England you know is there a number is there another target you can move to as Mikel spoke about that last summer if you can't find one you've got to pivot quickly and there's all these sort of questions that kind of I mean I still think they've got a fantastically strong they're strengthening the defense you know I think Conte is a very good addition they're strengthening the field Bruno for Norgard I've seen Skelly's now another year older up front they're weaker you know they're lighter in numbers you know maybe Jesus wouldn't have played very much.

44:03Martinelli's form had kind of tailed well, and they've got down when coming through. But I think in numbers, they're kind of lighter, especially on the left. It's also interesting as well, watching that game, linking it back to the game. Kai Havertz has had a strong start to the season. Excellent. But Victor Jokeres hasn't played. And you're watching this game, and Villa are on the ascendancy, and Arsenal are doing what they do, of camping in. And you're thinking, surely throw on Jokeres for 10 minutes, five minutes, two minutes. The problem is, his first touch is not good enough. I think, you know, isn't it?

44:32That's the bottom line. It's quite a scary place to be, though, isn't it? When you're back, even if you've got him a back-hurt striker. It's time to play him. It's 3-0 up at Coventry after 60 minutes. Bring him on then, give him half an hour. You know, he can't do any damage. You bring him on when you're 1-0 up away from home at Villa and he loses the ball and suddenly you go down the other end and you go, what's going on here? I don't know. You both played the game, you know?

44:53Gregor Robertson: No, I think there were some extraordinary takes about Gioca's last season, about how, you know, just because he scored goals that they needed against the smaller clubs that somehow he was a sign-in that was a success. And because he won the Premier League, he still didn't make it a success. He's not good enough. And I think the fact he's not playing now or not even getting a look in, well, he'll have to. He'll have to now because, as Gary said, they haven't got backup. And Havertz's injury record isn't great either. So it leaves them in a bit of a predicament. But ultimately, Arsenal, their strength and depth at the back is extraordinary it's the same in midfield like Gary's right you know Trossard Trossard became a big player actually towards the end of the last season when they really you know they had someone stepped up actually it was him a lot of the time Well he scored the goal at West Ham didn't he?

45:42Gregor Robertson: Arguably won I mean that won the league His form at the end of the season was really important yeah and Solis had a difficult game in this one like you know there's been a lot of praise and sort of excitement about him at the start of the season going away to Aston Villa getting a few hits from a Premier League right back. You saw that it was not going to be easy for him. So yeah, they have Dowman coming through. They still have Eze. Maybe he'll get more of an opportunity on the left. They're okay, but a couple injuries and it looks a little bit more precarious. It's kind of actually, although you don't want to read too much in the transfer window, you still got to see the proof in the pudding on the pitch.

46:21It's kind of given the rest of the league

46:24Gregor Robertson: a bit of a glimmer of hope. Well, that's what the fans will have wanted, won't they? They'll have gone, right, we've won the league with the best team defensively. Guimares, now star up front, blow teams away. And I think this game was quite evident, wasn't it? Of the fact that, and I'm not, you know, early days, only two games and things, but so much, so much had been made in the summer. We had talked about it. Alison and I had got excited for Martin Odegaard 2.0 and things. But watching this game, you're talking about an Aston Villa that have lost all their stars, have got injuries, haven't got most of their players.

46:54And that second half, it was Arsenal of last season, camping in, and that's fine, doing it brilliantly. But you've got David Raya walking the ball with his feet to the edge of the box, waiting for Tammy Abraham to come and press him to pick it up. Like, are we going to get more of the same, do we think, Gary, for a bit? I think probably in the short term.

47:14Gregor Robertson: Even as Gary, you outlined in your piece analysing Arsenal's window, there was a moment after last season, after the Champions League defeat, where Arteta said, we want to change and evolve and do this but you need the players to help you do that and if he's not had them then why are you going to do it? There's part of me as well actually if we're just talking about not wanting to give the teams just throwing a bag of cash at the transfer market any credit if the right player isn't available for them and that's been difficult a striker's been difficult for them for a long time now but if the right player's not available or wanted to come or is gettable then don't do it that's the prudent thing to do as a football club That was my take to you guys about Thiago.

47:56To me, that was such an obvious, because his first touch is very good. For us, yeah. And Gary sort of said, well, they had a very big interest. They had an interest in him. They had an interest in Balcola, but they didn't want to pay Balcola's fee. So they'd met with Daddy. They had to talk to him. They had an interest in Alex Scott. A lot of these players they've just had talks with and obviously not decided, we want to pay those fees. Tonali, they didn't want to pay the agent fee. So there's all these kind of little sub-stories and they've obviously decided that's our valuation. There's some Rodgers, obviously, we're going to see it on Sunday, aren't we?

48:26Didn't want to go in it. They could have had him earlier. I think that's the one that they probably would end up regretting. Morgan Rodgers. Morgan Rodgers. I think they would probably think, okay, they should have done the deal earlier. And they've been following him from well more than a year because we did the pieces last summer that they were kind of after him. So there's a long period of time and they could have got the deal done and dusted. and you know these deals don't happen in two weeks they have no period of time you know buttering up the player and all the other things that have got to go with it the club's got to have a replacement you know

48:57Gregor Robertson: the one thing you should say is like yes probably that's the one they dithered but we're just talking about a lot of the£100 million plus fees that no one else is willing to pay or touch on the barge ball they were probably surprised that Chelsea came in and went there you go so like they're a bit caught on a weird and obviously you know we don't know this obviously but then the subsequent deals that have happened between those two clubs, obviously people will look at them. The Premier League will probably look at those, or UEFA will look at those as well. Arsenal are going to win games a lot this year like that.

49:27What you witnessed Monday night, have we all predicted before the game that it's 1-0? Yeah. It's a very often score with Arsenal.

49:34Gregor Robertson: I wouldn't be critical. I think we saw different things. Even Calafiore, my God, the way he started the season is outstanding. I think also he's probably... The goal's great as well. The goal's a great move. Also, he's probably looked at it like, I've got Villa, I've got Chelsea, I've got Sunderland, I've got a tricky little start. I want to get maximum points, be pragmatic, let's get to a certain points level, I can build off that platform. What he doesn't want to do is open that out, get a few dicky results, and then suddenly people are going, what's going on, you know? So I think that for me, he's quite a practical manager, isn't it, in that sense, Mikel?

50:03And, you know, once Bruno's up and running and everyone's up and running, I think it will be a slightly different thing.

50:10Gregor Robertson: Look, if they need to defend the lead, they can defend the lead. I mean, Chelsea would like to be able to do that at the moment. Yeah. Like, there's no criticism in defending the lead well. What they did in the first half is they took the game to Villa and they have like five or six players sometimes on the top line just like interchanging and moving and often that involves the full-backs. And like Lewis Skelly in the centre-half is just kind of backing up behind. They suffocate you as well in an attacking sense. Let's hope Calafiore can stay fit as well. He could be a real, real player. I mean, once along, Gado beats City 3-0 in the Community Shield.

50:42whether people think that's relevant or not. Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. It's the early days. It's very early days, I will say as well. I love Bukayo Saka's celebration as well. They're pointing to the, tell them, running to the Arsenal tanks. Tell them, tell them we're champions. Tell them we're champions. I mean, you made the point about Gregor, the Chelsea, that's going to be the tale of Sunday, isn't it? The defence against the attack. Just before we finish with a quick look at Sunday, just on Aston Villa as well, because I think they're another team that we hadn't mentioned in part one that this summer, if you're a Villa fan, you're looking going, ooh, okie dokie then.

51:09We've lost a lot of our team. They've signed some good players, signed some exciting players. I mentioned Manzambi as well once he's fit. This game to me on Monday was at least a reminder of what a good coach Unai Emery is because they were right in this game and progressed in this game. They just maybe lacked that quality in the final third and that's maybe the worry going forward. Jackson did a lot of running about. Buendia's a good player and there's a good story last season. Is he Morgan Rodgers? I don't think so. What do we think about Villa, one of your old clubs, Tony, in terms of where they're at now?

51:40Now the window's closed with all the change that's gone on. They've still got Unai Emery. You tipped them to come good in the end. Back to Unai Emery. You said they'd finish fourth. Yeah, well, it's because he's such a good manager, and you said it there, Tom. A week before, his side got torn apart by Brighton. I was at the game, and it could have been anything. And the fact was that Brighton took their foot off the pedal. Villa were all over the place. You could see the frustration from the sideline. and I'm literally 10 yards away from Unai Emery. And you can see that he's really caught up knowing that his side are well short.

52:12Now, in a week, they've then played the champions and been competitive in the game. I think he'll do that really quickly. And like you said, he's got other players to come back in, whether it's Madro, whether it's Manzambi and others. I think he'll get a team together really quickly. Yeah, I'd like to see Madro as well a bit more. That'd be really good fun, wouldn't it? And just looking at the weekend then, we've teased it a couple of times, Chelsea-Arsenal, already fascinating. isn't it? Peter Rutz has written a really interesting piece about the new Chelsea and the new Xabi Alonso something that slightly passed me by, I mean, watching all the goals and the thing.

52:44Possession 25.9 % possession for Chelsea against Brighton. 38 % possession against Fulham How's this going to work against Arsenal? This is either going to be 5-4 or 0-0 isn't it? They're both just going to go, no, you have it no, I don't want it, you have it I don't want it, you have it, no, back you go just Arsenal passing it along the back four, Califiora occasionally trying to run. I'm excited about this game, but I'm a little bit sceptical that it'll be the kind of superstar game that we think it might be. What do we think, Greg?

53:15Gregor Robertson: Well, I think we said last week that a lot of that, you've got to give, you know, the fact that the game state, Chelsea were ahead for so much of both of the first two games that they didn't need, you know, they didn't need to come out and dominate the game. Like, as I said, Chelsea clearly still have flaws kind of structurally and perhaps in terms of the personnel at the back and like I'm I'm sure that'll improve but I have question marks for the season actually about them their strength at centre and a half in central defence and defending their own box and who's going to be in front of them like Lavia's fit just now and I think I think the last game was his 17th Premier League start in four years like that like it's remarkable how little he's been available so if he's fit and available that's a big boost talking about Caicedo So that's the issue.

54:04Gregor Robertson: Going forward, they're electric and the speed on their counter-attack, the way that they... the sort of incisive passing on the break and stuff is brilliant. Morgan Rodgers seems to be the conduit for a lot of that so far. So they're going to create chances and score goals, even come up against the defence-like arsenals. So I think a big thing about who scores the first goal... It took them a long time to... Go ahead, sorry. No, I was just going to say, let's ask the three of us. If Chelsea's forward line was the Arsenal forward line, how many points did they win the league? Because they're phenomenal.

54:39I mean, Saka I really like. I really like Saka. And Habits. But I wouldn't have Habits under Pedro. If you're looking at the Chelsea forward line, it was playing for Arsenal. They'd win by 15. I would be convinced of it. And one thing you said about procession, one thing that clearly Alonso's team does, they take miss with the ball. where Arsenal not so much, where Chelsea do. It makes them more vulnerable, but they are prepared to lose the ball. So maybe it'll just be a 1-0 Arsenal winning just to finish up. It took them quite a long long time to get to accept they needed a goalkeeper. And there might be internal politics for that reason.

55:16But it'll be interesting how Martinez actually does because obviously he's got a bit of an attitude, which could be a good thing in a dressing room, but you just don't know. And is he the Martinez of the few years? He's still quite young, 34. so that would be an interest but I agree the centre-backs I think they're better but they're not you look at them you wouldn't look at any of the Chelsea defenders in the Arsenal back line would you and to me I look at that and I think the Arsenal back line is so strong and Chelsea for all the money they spent they haven't got the Van Dijk that Liverpool got they haven't got the Gabriel the Saliba and I think even Conte is a very good clever deal by Arsenal

55:55Gregor Robertson: looking at them all Lacroix is a good signer decent player Fofana like again is having him fit and available and I think he's a good player I think Colwell is interesting he's like it's almost the hype about Colwell is about the player he could be rather than the player he's shown himself to be so far so like he could be an outstanding player he's also had injury troubles and they've let Tosin go they've let Chalaba go like I know they can play Rhys James in there but his injury record isn't great either maybe at a stretch he could play Gusto there but there's not much I think that I think they might have left themselves despite all the extravagance and the half a billion in player sales have left themselves short somewhere again.

56:34Gregor, I want to quickly ask Gregor a question. When you were playing defence against attack when you were a player, who often won? Who the most often won? Defence against attack. Defence. I've heard this before. They used to say it was a regular thing that you play the attackers against the defence. The defence would win. Yeah, there you go. They just did so often. We'll see if that comes across on Sunday. A really interesting game. loads of other interesting games as well. Ipswich-Liverpool on Friday, that could be really tasty. Newcastle, Bournemouth, early test for Matthias Gaisler at the lunchtime kick-off and Hull against Aston Villa.

57:08Aston Villa needing some points. You probably don't want to go to Hull at the moment. You can keep up to date with it all on the Times website. We'll leave it there for now. Tony Cascarino, Gary Jacob and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday to talk all about it. We'll see you then. işte