Who can challenge Arsenal this season? Rejuvenated Spurs, and Glasner's Forest

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2:11Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times, who are the favorites for the Premier League title. As Arsenal sign a Brazil star who isn't Vinicius and Manchester City fans contemplate a life without Rodri, we wonder whether they will be the top two again. Or is this a season for an outside charge and a three or even four team title race? On today's show, we'll discuss all that, the other teams dreaming big and the latest transfer news too. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Arsenal.

2:48It's Gary Jacob and the former Millwall Chelsea and Marseille striker, Tony Cascarino. Team, we're here again. We just can't stop chatting about football. The football's back as well, Alison. Here we are chatting about the Premier League, big time Charlies, but St Mirren are flying at the top of the Scottish Premiership after two games. The Mighty Imps have started their charge to the Carabao Cup final with a win on Saturday. Beat Derby. Looking good. I'm sure you spotted that, didn't you, Alison? Yes, I'm very into them. all over the early rounds of the League Cup, Alison Rudd, but we're not going to talk about that today.

3:20We are, however, going to be having a special preview show to the Football League later in the week. Paul Gregor-Obson will be back from his long, long stint on the Sun Lounger to come and talk about the Football League. But we are going to talk about the Premier League today and let's talk about the champions, Arsenal. Gary, you were there at the Emirates to watch a defeat. But we don't worry too much about pre-season defeats, do we? Well, there's two defeats. Yeah, two defeats. But as Mikko pointed out, it was two defeats last year as well. Yes. So great signs. Yes. Great signs. Great signs.

3:52Must be the championship coming. Let's get reactions to the Bruno signing first, before we talk about the game story. I think he's a very good signing. Maybe a year or two too late, in terms of where he is. He's going to turn 29 in November. But I think he's a very good signing in terms of their midfield. Can play as a number six. Can play as a number eight. As Mikko said yesterday, he can play through the lines. And that's one of their problems last season, I think sort of playing through the lines and he can finish. You know, he's a Newcastle's creative player last season. And I think that's been some of Arsenal's problems.

4:22I think it's a very good signing, but it feels like, you know, at the end of the Champions League final, Mikel was talking about ambition and it felt like here and now, here is your moment with all the other clubs in flux a little bit, with changing managers and whatever, trying to close the gap on the big European teams. This is the moment. Do you think the Bruno signing does that? Do you think that's an ambitious signing that says 75 million? It's definitely an upgrade in the midfield. You can't argue about that. But there's still holes in the team that we can discuss. So then back to what you saw in these games then.

4:54What did you make of those performances? Probably a little bit sloppy. But they're missing the World Cup players. And you can realise the World Cup players probably knit the things together. Declan, they're going to be Saliba for a bit of a time. but even the ones who were there and then other players coming back from come the World Cup Fitness, Odegaard played yesterday a little bit, he looked quite sharp Solis on the left looks quite good but he had an extra two weeks with Bruges, he started early so he's going to look good but he's probably different to Trossard because he's going to go outside and probably beat his man and cross it or shoot so there's going to be a lot more of a kind of maybe directness.

5:33I think people will be surprised I was surprised about him. He's not going to be their number one left winger, probably in time, you wouldn't have thought, but he's going to be an upgrade on what they had last season. Can I ask you, Gary, because of the Odegaard we saw at the World Cup, very smiley Odegaard. Felocious as well. I mean, honestly, I don't want to overstate it, but it's like it's his twin brother or something. Did you see anything that indicated he's going to carry on from the World Cup into this season domestically? He was playing a lot of through balls yesterday when he came. He played a lot of through balls and I thought that was really interesting.

6:09He was the one who was actually playing those balls. So the question is, is he going to be the one who's going to be doing that, I guess, with someone else? Or is he going to play maybe more all action like he did at the World Cup where he looked... Was he smiling though? Was he smiling? That's the key. I didn't actually check, to be honest. He looked good. He looked sharp yesterday. And there were parts last season where he didn't look sharp. And how serious were the rumours that he might leave Arsenal, do you think? I think Mikel probably wouldn't take an offer on him. I think there'd be other people inside the club who would.

6:42He's got two years left on his contract. So would you give him a new contract? You know, if you're the club, would you want to pay him on a five-year contract on big money when maybe in a year or two you're not sure and you phase past Odegaard? So there is a dilemma. But I think for Mikel, he wouldn't do that because he loves him. me personally I would kind of think about giving him one more year and then offload him yeah interesting I know you love him Alison you're going to have to go and get the nail with the interview with him this season because it could be his last exactly see it's a for me it's an obvious one with Odegaard yeah like by injury over the last two years you get a Odegaard that's fit week in week out it's a completely different well the one that in the World Cup was amazing Tom 18 months ago when I'd done a piece and when Odegaard had come back from an injury at that time and he came back and he looked like he was absolutely on his full game fitness wise he was literally running the show now he can do that but what we've seen is an injured player so often can't get back to full fitness then finds when he plays the fans a little bit you know what it's like at the Emirates isn't it they're not quite sure when they first got him and he was on loan and he was brilliant it was signing so he'd lost his way slightly I think he's a hell of a player.

8:02Just coming back to the Bruno Guimaraes signing then, Gary said definite upgrade. Tony, Alison, you do be in agreement. There's a big signing for the title winners, a statement signing. It doesn't feel that momentous really, but I do think it's a very good fit rather than it being, you know, Galactico type stuff. It's more that I can see Guimaraes taking the pressure off Declan Rice. You know, there have been too many games. I mean, it seems ridiculous to criticise Arsenal at all because they did win the title. But it felt watching them, there were a lot of games where you felt the weight of responsibility on Rice's shoulders was too much.

8:40He was having to mop up at the back, go out to the wing when required, go forward when required, do all the tackling when required. He just had to do too much. and then there was that sort of slight, whenever Arsenal wobbled, you felt it was because Rice wasn't fully, fully fit because he was just too many minutes on the pitch probably. And I do feel Gimmaras, he's got that similar personality where he will go anywhere. He'll go where he needs to put out the fire. And so that'll just help balance the midfield and possibly allow Declan Rice to be a bit more creative as well. Because it's a limit to how creative you can be when you're constantly just zooming around the pitch trying to make sure you don't fill any gaps if there isn't.

9:23If you're Mikko Lattetti, you would have looked at the previous seasons of coming second and they were literally foot on the pedal all season to try and get over the line. They achieved that last season. So coming to this season, when you sign someone like Gimarese, you're signing a tenacious player that's going to literally pressure everything. He'll pressure people in his own dressing room to be in the starting line up. Because one thing he's got now, he's got one hell of a midfield, whoever he's going to select. and it's going to really lift standards around them. Because if you've got players challenging for a spot in the team, you'll be surprised training during midweek, get to a game and when you're not in the side, why am I not in the side?

10:02Because if he's playing really well, and he's got that with all these midfielders now. I think he's got options now. Many of them, yeah. But he needs a better fitness record than what he had last season. He needs players to stay fit and he banged on about the end of the season. He needs the top players to be fit at the business end of the season. And they kind of weren't really in the last season. Timber and Saka and Rice was carrying something. So he needs them fit. At least having better players, you can in theory rotate. Nicole's not really been one for rotating. So we just see, will he rotate?

10:34Yeah, definitely a good sign. Always a statement signing, I think, when you sign a rival team's captain. When you sign a captain, I think it's a significant moment, isn't it? A leader. You're signing another leader as well in the dressing room. And I really actually enjoy, we discussed it, I think, post-World Cup with the Uri Tielemann signing. I'm really enjoying all these people signing 28 and 29-year-olds and just going, no, he improves us right now. Right now. Don't worry about the sell-on fees. Don't worry about this. He's going to improve us for three years right now. So how weird is that, the contradiction, right?

11:04We're in a period of the game when we're now knowing that players can be so fitter, they can keep their, you know, they eat the right things. They can play into their late 30s. And yet, 29, there's clubs now. Well, he's too old now. So it's only based on finance. It's not based on what they can still do. You take Fergie. He took Berbatov, 29. Took Van Persie, 29. There's a few of them. Sheridan, I think, was 32 when he took Sheridan. Yeah, 31, I think, yeah. 31? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you get the point. The point of a 29-year-old who can still... Do clubs really... Are they interested in a year four of a contract?

11:39Yeah. When you're signing a plan, you might go Tillemans, oh, come in, four-year deal. Are you really bothered about the fourth year? Yeah. We'll worry about that when we get there. But it's refreshing, isn't it? Before we just broaden it out and bring in Manchester City and other clubs and talk about that title race question that I asked at the top, Gary, you were mentioning Solis on the left wing. Last week, we talked about Vinicius. We've talked about Morgan Rodgers and had plenty of times. Here we are, less than two weeks from that first game against Coventry. And as much as Guimares is a great signing, Arsenal fans will still be looking at that left wing and going, where's our world-class superstar that's going to get us as PSG?

12:13What are you thinking, Tom? I'm thinking, where do they go from here? I know you're thinking a man in red. Where are you thinking? Listen, we'll come on to whether they could make a cheeky move for Marcus Rashford on the final day of the deadline day. But have they still got ambition for a superstar signing? They've spoken to Barcola, but I think he's too expensive. Right. Yield is at Juventus they've been trying for. After that, there are very few options. They could go back in for Nico Williams. in... What are we looking going on in that one? But he's not... The Yielders. Are we looking at 100 million?

12:43There's just... Juventus are saying they won't sell, so... Because he's a real... He's only 20. But he's a young talent, isn't he? It's not a... It's not a ready-made... Well, Madrid have done that with Diomade. They've gone out and blown the... Yeah. But that's the thing, isn't it? That's what... And you've said it yourself in your answer about Guimardes. Take us to the next level. Go beyond. I think Arsenal fans have been disappointed because it's been more than two years they've needed a left winger. And it kind of feels like, where is this left winger? And they're still going to be scrambling around.

13:14And you think... Well, it was obvious where it was. It was Cavusquilla until he turned up last Christmas. Yes. And started playing brilliantly again because he was out of the team at PSG. Lansing them all over it. Just going back to Barcola, you don't think that's a... I don't think they'd compete with Liverpool for them. I just think they don't want to pay the price. If they want to pay Rodgers for that, I can't see them paying that for Barcola. Interesting. You know. And so do you think that then maybe, Alison, to you in their position as champions and lots of flux and change around. Let's start the conversation.

13:43Are Arsenal the favourites going into this season as it stands right now? Well, as you can probably imagine, a lot of people have been saying to me, go on then, watch your 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 for the league. I'm not even asking for that. I was out for dinner with a friend who's entered a charity predictions. I'm not joking. It was eight pages of predictions. Eight pages? Who's going to score the most goals between these two teams? Who's going to concede the most goals between these two teams and then those two teams? So this person is cheating by getting you to fill it in for them. Well, I did caveat it with nobody knows, but I think most people, to answer your question, I think most people would have Arsenal as favourites.

14:26And in fact, I've heard quite a lot of the pundits who do the merry-go-round on the media saying they're clear favourites for the title. I am not I don't think they're clear favourites because I think Is that because of a lack of star left winger? No, that's one factor I don't think it's a huge factor I think it's a factor I think the mindset will change completely now what it was that there was an element of desperation which is gone I think it's a completely different way of thinking about things when you're defending a title and I do believe the fans I've always found them quite intriguing the Arsenal fans what they demand and you know I have been there when they've left at 60 minutes you know that is a ridiculous time to leave a football match because it's not going your way I think they will demand more attractive football I think there will be adjustments early season and I think they might drop a few points early on and I think they'll finish first or second but I wouldn't I wouldn't put my house on finishing first No, I don't think it's that clear cut.

15:34Tony, what do you reckon? Alison's saying favourites, but not clear favourites. No, all the big clubs have done a lot of work and there's still more to be done. So I wouldn't say clear. I think they're one hell of a squad of players. There's no doubt about that. I mean, I know we're going to talk about Chelsea a bit later. And I'll say my words for them because I do think they're a real threat. Yeah. Let's bring that in in a minute then. Gary, just a final thought on Arsenal then at the minute. I mean, I think Alison's right. They're going to have to play more attractive football than last year.

15:59I think that's... But they've also got a tricky start. Chelsea, Sunderland, Villa in the opening four, which is not... So I think in the short term, while they're getting players back from the World Cup, they're going to have to grind out a few results. So I think early on you might actually see them doing what they did last season until they're kind of up and running. And they may not be up and running properly until October, November, because Saliba might not be back until maybe November or so, maybe after. You know, Declan, Timber, Declan, Saka, you know. So they may not find their groove until a little bit later.

16:34And just to finish on the left wing point then, you joked about it earlier, we were joking before we came on air, this idea of a move for Marcus Rashford.

16:44It's got shades of Raheem Serling over it. Not in the sense that, because obviously they're completely different players, but I think Arsenal fans, I think we've spent all this year's time looking for a left winger. We should be buying one we really believe in and why haven't we scouted around rather than kind of scampering around at the end of the window. But if they're a week to go and there isn't anyone out there, you can't help but look at him and think he did well at Barcelona and he played for England. And the United probably have to do a deal. Marcus Rashford will be having a big season in the Premier League.

17:17I'm convinced of it. I'm very excited. Do you think he's going there? No, no. I think he'll come back to Manchester United and have a great season. I made this prediction a few weeks ago and I'm sticking to it. I just don't understand it. I can't understand why things have changed. Amarim's left, why Manchester United wouldn't find a home for him when they also need someone to play off the left and they need to strengthen their attacking options with experience. But equally, I think if Arsenal made a move for him, what a terrific signing that would be. Champions League experience, World Cup experience, great season for Barcelona, decent World Cup, playing off that left wing, direct, quick, pacey, play off Gokker, Jocheres or Havertz.

17:52It'd be a fantastic thing. Wouldn't it be wonderful? Anyway, let's move on. The psychology of Marcus Rashford is fascinating. I don't know why so many United fans aren't keen for it. He's a very on-his-day cliché, but he is a very, very, very good player. Do you think there could be enough residual love to embrace that concept, but there are enough people who seem to think it's a backward step for some reason? Just one thing that was very notable yesterday, Jocheres. Obviously, he was panned at times last season. I think based on yesterday, I think he's going to be equally, their eyes are going to be on him again.

18:26Interesting. interesting fluff their sort of header and sort of quite a few flicks thing goes away I think the fans got accepted by the end of the season but I think they'll be on the case for something better this year well let's bring in the other teams then and talk about Manchester City discussions around whether Rodri leaves Charlotte Duncan reporting at the end of last week about Barcelona move for him but City holding firm for a much bigger transfer fee to even contemplate letting the World Cup winner go Tony you're talking about Chelsea to broaden my question out from the very intro then.

18:57Is it a two-team title race or do we think it could be a bit more open this year with all the change, all the flux, no Pep Guardiola? Tony, I'll start with you and you can bring in Chelsea. Yeah, I do. I think, you know, look, Man City has still got a hell of a squad. Rodri's a huge player for them and I can't see them being able to keep him. Really can't. Whether it's Real Madrid or Barcelona, I think they'll come to an agreement somewhere along the line. There was a reason why they bought Elliot Anderson. You know, they knew that that would probably be a tough one to keep him in the summer. Chelsea, I watched both their games.

19:34Not so much the second one, the crazy one. The Gaga, the Chelsea goalkeeper, Gaga. The game is Gaga. But that was more of a second string team. But the one that played AC Milan was really good. And there was a couple of things that happened in the game. It also happened in the other game, the 3-3. I can't remember the name of the team who they played. because everyone has a different name for them. Oh, Jojo Dorel, yeah. Yeah, that's it. Well, I couldn't remember that one. I'm reading it to you. So, the Chelsea-AC Milan game. And by the way, Ruben Amarin has lined up the same as he did at Man United.

20:10No way. It's almost like Ruben Amarin has a philosophy and people don't listen and don't believe it. They got battered. Chelsea tore them apart. And they had chance after chance after chance. So, just coming back to Chelsea then, because I think it would be very easy to talk about Ruben Amarim. Again, he's back, listeners and viewers. My point, Tom, on Chelsea was that Welbeck went alongside Pedro and it really worked well for them. Now, whether he'll do that in a season, I don't know. But one thing was pretty clear for Chelsea in both games was they're not going to create some chances. Were they playing a back three because Alonso did that at Bayern or were they playing two up?

20:47Well, it was a bit of a mixed bag, but I felt more of a four, if anything. But what they did really well was the ball would go long quite quickly at times. Pedro got away a couple of times in the match. But generally, crosses were coming from everywhere. Bodies in the 18-yard box. Chelsea are going to score a lot of goals this season. Interesting. They really are. Do you think they're strong enough at the back? There's loads of players still not. You know, it's hard because obviously they've had a number of visits. Ivor Carwell is, you know, back from a long injury and didn't play much last season.

21:18They brought in some experience in there as well. I think, I mean, the squad is ridiculous. The size of the squad. It's 50 plus players. Yeah, 46, I think. Well, no, it's more. They've even got people like De Sasse, who's at West Ham. He's not even applicable. I mean, they haven't ruled out. I think it's about 54. They haven't ruled out not signing anyone still. Yeah. But they've got a lot to get out the door. They've got ones to get out the door, but incredibly dangerous, I felt. Interesting. Sanchez, the keeper's an interesting one because it feels like Alonso's going to stay with him. You know, he's...

21:51I mean, watch him last year and the year before, really. He's loads of great saves. Yeah. But we'll make these mind-boggling errors in a game. I still think they've got too many players of that type. Yeah. I think they'll be fun. I think they'll be dangerous. I think they'll be fun and dangerous, but whether they've got enough for the title... But no football, European's going to be big for them. Let's talk... Bringing back to Manchester City as well, sorry. Even a team... I was looking at it earlier. even a team without Rodri and this is on the assumption that they may be signed Buadi the young Moroccan midfielder who they've been heavily linked with would be potentially Donnarumma Aitnori Diaz Gueye O 'Reilly Anderson Buadi Semenyo Cherki Doku Haaland That's pretty strong That's pretty good It's an amazing squad of players but with City we don't know what losing the aura of Pep Guardiola is going to do to them Yeah fascinating And each individual player that you just listed they all went to City for the reason of Pep Guardiola.

22:47That was at least part of their reasoning, not just they wanted to win silverware. There's a certain type of player that wants that kind of manager, the demanding genius, and they want to feel that. They want to know what that is like, how their game can be improved by having an exceptional manager in charge of them. And Mariska's a very good manager, but he hasn't got that status yet. Not the status, but he does have the demanding quality, doesn't he, in terms of what he might bring? Everything in his short career so far suggests... I think most managers in the Premier League are demanding. I don't think that's an exceptional quality at all.

23:25And I think he has to be careful about whether he... It's always the same problem if you take over from someone who's got a legacy and an aura. Do you try and be like them? I'm as demanding as Pep. Well, that's not going to cut it. You've got to be yourself. You've got to somehow show that you, on your own terms, are not just a Pep disciple, which he is to a degree, but that you've got something else about you and that all these players you've just listed, who are innately talented players and have proven it, that they're not going to suffer this dip of, oh, well, you know, in training, Pep would do that.

24:06It's not, oh, we're not, we're not. Or it might be they're actually quite relieved. Maybe training is slightly less onerous or there's slightly less chat about what they could do better. Because he was very demanding in that sense of individually telling players they could do more. And if Mareska feels like he hasn't got the charisma to do that, do they drop off because they're not being pushed as much? I think, yes, they have an amazing squad, but I am expecting a dip in performance. Just a slight dip in performance. I think the interesting one is losing Bernardo as well. He was a really good player for them, wasn't he?

24:43That's another leadership. If you lose him and Rodri in the same one, it's kind of, yeah, the leadership and the kind of know-how. And that could be just a little bit of... Interesting. I'm quite excited. I think there might be a freshness about Mareska and think they might. And Osvaldian could be that. They'll probably sell Savinho and get someone else in as well. So they're going to strengthen in another way. I think they've got a squad squad, yeah. Unbelievable as well. You know, Kusinov looked great towards the end of the season. And he's got six months under his belt there now. Yeah. And Semenyo, you know, ready-made star players, but very interesting.

25:12But you haven't even mentioned Haarlem. Exactly. Another player who looked incredible in that. You know, when you said about you get all top goal scorer, well, it's hard to oppose Haarlem, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not saying City are going to be absolutely rubbish. I'm just saying, I think that might be a slight drop off. Yeah. It's interesting. It could go either way. So at the minute, we're heading towards a kind of, we think Chelsea might be outsiders to a traditional top two. Are there any other teams? I genuinely do think that about Chelsea. You think they could be sneaking up as those two kind of try and manage loads of competitions?

25:46There's something about Alonso. Even with defence goalkeeper? I think they will concede goals, but I think they'll probably be winning games 3-2 quite a lot. There's going to be a lot of that. I totally agree. With Chelsea? I think if you want to watch a team next year and you're going to be really entertained, I would say it'd be Chelsea. Interesting. Gary? I mean, it's only pre-season. And are we drawing the line there then? So we're going, actually, it is a traditional top two with Chelsea as an outsider. None of the other, you know, Liverpool. In my predictions, I've put Liverpool third. Third.

26:16I think they'll have a slow start. Well, they are definitely going to have a slow start, but then they're going to get in the groove and steam up to third. We hope. I think the goalkeeper thing is a worry for me at Chelsea and maybe the centre-backs. And they've still got the Inzo situation. The Kors come in as well. I think he's decent, but he's not. he's not Saliba level is he he's a good player but he's not that and I don't know he's still got the Enzo situation to resolve haven't they which we don't know if he's going to go or not you know he's flirting with everyone but is someone actually going to put the money on the table for him that would be another big one as well really interesting reading in Paul Joyce's report from Liverpool's game the defeat with Monaco Andoni Iraola talking about something we have discussed on this podcast a lot about that energy that he demands from his team it's almost Ange Postacoglu-esque in terms of he said we played a good first half especially a good 30 minutes right now we probably don't have much more in terms of the levels required to play like this they were much better in the second half they deserve to turn the game around I think the ones for whom it was their first game and even the ones who are playing their second game they had energy the problem right now is they don't have the energy for 90 minutes they start to get tired and it will take time which is of course is true in a world cup year that always takes time Tony you've told us all the time about the kind of difficulties of pre-season and things but it is interesting that we're already hearing these conversations from Iriola about what I want and what I'm getting It's not brave of him, though.

27:33Yeah. It's brave, but it's quite stuck. There are already a cohort of fans that are worried about this appointment. They don't like the lack of connection with Liverpool and they don't like the leap from Bournemouth to Liverpool. They don't like it. I think the majority of fans are saying, well, come on, give them a chance. Yeah, yeah. They were a very entertaining, if not the most entertaining, Bournemouth in the league last season. But to go to... It is hugely different for him. the amount of media attention on him compared to Bournemouth is, I mean, it's multiplied by thousands of percent, really.

28:12And yet he's not trying to pander to that, those doubts about whether Liverpool can play this high, intense press and implement his methodology. He's doubling down on it. And I see what you mean by it's and-like in a way, but it's not. No, no, I'm being mischievous and simplistic. The system is more sensible than an antipostocoglu system. And when it clicks, this is the faith thing. I think when it clicks, it will be a thing of beauty and it will be successful. I'm agreeing with Andoni. Then come the game against Newcastle, their first game, I don't think Liverpool will be ready. I don't think they will be fit enough, but they will, in leaps and bounds, become fit enough.

28:59So they'll probably drop all the points they're going to drop. They're going to drop in the first month. So we're going to have Arsenal and Liverpool bottom of the league. I was going to say on Alison's point about Liverpool, as I know, I'm a firm believer in the way he plays. And I think it would be great for Liverpool long term. I really do. I trust in that this guy really does know what he's doing. Where I used to think, oh, Ange wasn't convincing. So watching Isaac and Verts getting a goal, it was obvious as hell. I mean, he made loads of changes. in the game so it was obvious as hell that they weren't ready they were undercooked for the Premier League there's two weeks to go absolutely two weeks so Liverpool will be and I've talked about Chelsea being a flare team Liverpool will be very close to that yeah well we had Paul Joyce on last week's show talking in depth about Liverpool and I asked him a question just at the end about this season what the expectations are challenge for a title or season of transition and Champions League just answer that question all of you transition Champions League transition yeah yeah great yeah absolutely full house full house very rare as well for a full house on this podcast what do you think Tom?

30:02I think season of transition yeah I think they will be like Chelsea fun at times still got problems I thought Joyce made a point today in his piece about how Virts and Isaka are working a lot better together well that's the big thing isn't it they've got to get those transfers right and working well on the pitch haven't they as you mentioned Gary you can read Paul Joyce's analysis from Anfield on the Times website now plenty more up there as well including the latest from FIFA Gianni Infantini has been accused of deception by three FIFA vice presidents over his World Cup sell-off plan who are understood to have open talks over possible rival competitions.

30:38Fascinating latest from Martin Ziegler, the man, of course, who broke the story. Get the latest on that on the Times website. Now it's time for a quick break. Last Monday, Alison, we picked out teams who were exciting, intriguing and worrying, but how many did we leave out entirely and might therefore mention in the second half of the show? Find out in just a sec.

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34:22Welcome back to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gary Jacob, Tony Cascarino and Alison Rudd with me. and they're all very upset, listeners and viewers, because they can't read an email. Can't read emails. Very upset. More rancor in the camp. Yeah, if you send emails while we're on air, Tom, it doesn't count. Well, the first email should be right. I was in my cup when you sent me here. The first email should be correct. Goodness me. Very upset. The answer to the part link, part quiz question was six. The teams we did not mention at all, Crystal Palace, Everton, Hull, Ipswich, Nottingham Forest and Tottenham.

34:56Chris, who's a long-time listener and often gets in touch with me, often with very good ideas. I think he suggested Roberto De Zerbe for the Tottenham job before they even made that appointment. Got in touch last week going, you've not mentioned Tottenham? All those signings. And do you know what? Fair play. So let's look at those teams and put them in some categories. I'm going to bring in some other teams as well because teams like Leeds, we didn't give much of a mention to, apart from a little nudge from me right at the end. So where do we see these teams then? And let's start with Tottenham.

35:25Excited, intrigued or worried are the kind of categories that I cheekily went for last week. Where do we think? Where do we think? I, for one, am excited by Tottenham this season. I think they're going to be really good fun. No, they're not. They're intriguing. They're not exciting. They're not exciting. They're intriguing because they've really bolstered the defence. And they've kept Van de Ven. Or they've let Paulinho go. You're very upset about that. You do love Paulinho. Why would anyone let him go? Maybe because they spent about 180 million on Tonali and Fernandes. But anyway. Well, yes. but I still think that's...

35:56I don't see why anyone would let him go. But, and I think defensively, wow, you know, they look like they could be the strongest defence in terms of personnel in the division. Really? Really, really. I mean, you know, just look at it. Not stronger than Arsenal's. Well, Arsenal starting the season with injuries. Yeah, but fully fit, surely not stronger. Yeah, we're not talking fully fit. We're talking start of the season, what do we think? So I think it's intriguing that they've really bolstered the defence and kept hold of the defenders that were good and looked good at the World Cup. But they're not exciting yet because they're still missing those pieces up top.

36:35I don't see where the goals are going to come from. What, even when people are back fit? It'd be lovely to see Kulazewski back on the pitch. When will he be back fit? Kudis Kulaz as well. When will Madson be fully fit? I think Tottenham fans would probably agree with that assertion that they do still need an attacking player, don't they? probably a striker. Gary? I think the top of my fans will look at it and it's a bit like Conte's first summer where they were very quick out of the market in the transfer market, very quick out of the traps, got the deals done and then it kind of all ground to a halt.

37:04And I think they're at this stage now where they still need to kind of get those other ones not ground to a halt. As I said, forward, definitely, and a left winger. Yeah. And then Savino's the one, but whether they really want to pay that type of money and obviously they've had conversations about Gakbo, who would play more as a number nine. But he's not really a forwardist. Do you think Sevigny is like proven? I think it's 60 million is a lot for him, given... Oh, do you not? I think he's so excited. I think he's so full of money. He's got patches of it. Yeah. But that's sometimes the problem at Manchester City, isn't it?

37:36You only get patches. You don't get a run. Whereas at Tottenham, you'd be on the left wing, get the ball, run, go. He had a good first season and last season he didn't. Pep decided to keep him when Spurs wanted him and he had a kind of mixed bag of a season. But I agree. I think there are loads of... And they've still got to get people out of the door. They've got Richarlison, they've got Spence. They've got Bergvau. You think Spence is going? Possibly, possibly. Not certain, but possibly. Richarlison. Cult hero of the World Cup, Jed Spence. Bergvau. And what about Romero? Because that's the one that you keep talking about.

38:09Romero, you know, which Atletico Madrid have got to pay the extra little bit to kind of match into Milan's fee to get that over the line, which you'd expect them to do. I mean, I know there's been talk about Arsenal, but as someone pointed out, you know, has more chance of Spurs selling a virus to Arsenal than anything, really. That probably makes sense. Even if those players left, Alisson, would you be as confident in their defence, Romero? I think the other one is the goalkeeper, Klinski. He kind of found himself back into favour, but does anyone really sure about Klinsko? After what that lad went through last season?

38:43I hope he ends up in the PFA team of the year, never mind whether we're sure about him or not. So you'd put them in intrigue category? I think they're intriguing. yeah I think they're intriguing exciting and intriguing I think we'll have a double oh here he is I think we'll have two categories it's looking it's looking good I think yeah I think it's looking really good defensively but it's kind they're intriguing because it's kind of unspursy to be that well stocked in defence and to have all these problems and all these problems in attack yeah Tony where do you put them intriguing as well definitely intriguing I mean I think there's more to come from Deserby anyway he's that type of manager He fell out with Marseille because of what he wanted.

39:25And he's gone to Spurs and they've given him basically what, you know, he's gone two centre-halves, Van Hecken, and obviously Cienci was at Bournemouth. He's gone two midfielders, Fernandes and Tonali. You know, the spine of the team is being put together there. I mean, I'd be interested to see what happens with Archie Gray. It's a weird one because he's been such a good player for them, but he was left out when Di Zerbi first got in the team. And his reason was, can't find a position for him. I think it's really exciting in the same way that you're excited about Chelsea, Alison. Because I think De Zerbe, having managed in the Premier League as well, will look at all the flux that's going on.

39:58That's the cream, Tom, though. And going, I'm having a crack at this. I'm not saying they're going to win the title. I'm not saying they're going to challenge for the title. But if Tottenham are suddenly up there in the top five, top six, top four, again, also same applies as Chelsea, no European football, etc. That's the cream. It could be good fun. For the team. I say that because Tottenham fans would be excited if people up front come in. I think that would be the exciting part for them. If they suddenly realise, well, now we've got, we've made some transfers that have made us a better team.

40:29You still look at even, I mean, Poro even plays near to what he did for Sputting in the World Cup and you've got Jed Spence as well. You think there's a lot there. If they get their centre-forward position with someone that will come in and deliver for them, whoever that may be, I think that would make fans excited. I think De Zerbe is the type of guy that you would hear in the last few weeks of his window. Like all managers, drop little bombs in press conference. De Zerbe is the type of guy who'd be happy to drop the bomb. Oh, he's done it already. He said we were getting a bomber signing a couple of weeks ago and it hasn't happened.

41:00Which I think probably was, again, putting pressure on the club. So let's see. If you start to see him saying things, you'll get the impression that they're maybe not getting something over the line. He's trying to push them. And that will be interesting to see because I think what happened at Brighton, what he said at the end, but it kind of fell apart with the things he was saying and what he wanted. It could be Conte again in time. Yeah. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. The vibes are still high. The vibes are still high. Not yet. In terms of their season then and asking a similar question around Liverpool, what is the expectation?

41:35What is the, you know, hopefully not finish 17th again. That'd be a start. I think you're right. No European football. They and Chelsea should be on the coattails of the top four, if not challenging for the top four, shouldn't they? I agree, totally agree. And they can do that, can't they? Or do we think, because what we're talking about then is we're bringing in Aston Villa, Manchester United, these teams that did finish in those positions last season. Have European football. Have European football. The big question is, what is the atmosphere going to be like for Spurs home games? Yeah. Will, if they have a few stuttering results, does it become like it was last season when it was incredibly toxic and counterproductive and I know I made myself unpopular with Spurs fans by saying they were partly responsible for them flirting with relegation, very heavily flirting with relegation.

42:20But I was there when they needed, the team needed the fans to go give them a roar. The place can be intimidating and amazing and yet most of the time a visiting club would go there and think, oh, this is jolly lovely. You shouldn't be going there thinking this is a treat. Spurs opening five fixtures, Brentford away, home to Newcastle, away at Nottingham Forest, home to Everton, home to Aston Villa before the international break. Top of the league. I'm telling you. They should be. It could be top of the league. It should be. Will those teams go there thinking, ah, this is going to be nice? Brentford away.

42:53It'd be lovely. Brentford away. Brentford away is the one. Brentford away is the one. Yes, a very interesting start to the season then. Chris, I hope that satisfies you. Long-time listener. Chris, a good chat about Tottenham. Make sure we always listen to people who get in touch and always do. tom.clark at the time.co.uk. That leaves Crystal Palace, Everton, Hull, Ipswich and Nottingham Forest. And let's start with Nottingham Forest. If I had a different category of fascinating, I think they would be in it, wouldn't they? So I think it means they're intriguing. But Oliver Glasner, Nottingham Forest, Evangelos Maranakis.

43:25It's all about the manager and the owner. It's all about that. Because they have an erratic owner who will surprise everybody by sacking someone that you think is unsackable at any point. he has that form if he falls out with them or something doesn't sit right with him there's no discussions just you're out the door and so you kind of think why does a manager go there? Well Oliver Glessner is the second highest paid manager in the Premier League that's why he's gone to Nottingham Forest possibly who am I to say? It obviously helps but also Oliver Glessner is I believe him to be one of the Premier League's outstanding managers at the moment what he achieved with Crystal Palace, with the resources he had there and the history he inherited.

44:12I mean, this is a guy who broke ceilings with the club, you know, brought them glory in cup competitions. They hadn't seen that. It's a phenomenal thing to achieve. And I think we loved him on this podcast all the way through because, let's say the words again, Ruben and Ameren. We had a manager who was devoted to a three-at-the-back system, that failed miserably. And yet Oliver Glasner, who isn't devoted to it, discovered it can work if you've got the right players, brought it in and did extremely well with it. So, you know, just the fact that Oliver Glasner existed alongside Ruben Amarim made Amarim look even more stupid, I think.

44:55I need a bell for gratuitous dings at Ruben Amarim. He's at AC Milan now, he's not even here. But it's just such fun to bring him up. So I think Glasner, if I owned Nottingham Forest, I would say, wow, yeah, I like Oliver Glasner. I want him to be on it. Will the relationship work? I mean, and there's no evidence that it will. Four managers last season, will Oliver Glasner be at Nottingham Forest at the end of the season? That's probably the question, isn't it? I think he probably will. I think it could work really nicely. He's still got a hell of a team. That's such a dream. I am such a dreamer.

45:28You've got to when you've been this long without a holiday, Alison. I'm still running on a few post-World Cup. You've got to bring Kyve into it. statistically the manager who's going to get the sack first was going to be a Nottingham Forest manager yeah you'll probably say that yeah well that's how it happened last season I absolutely echo what Alisson said about Glasner because he's done I've never seen a manager do that system so well in the Premier League and yes he had the players to do it but they implemented it well and also they got goals people like Sar on the wing Mateta you know he'd done it he'd done it in a way that everything came together but it's a tough gig Nottingham Forest They've done very little business this year so far.

46:05Do you know what I worry about in that system, if he plays that system, Morgan Gibbs-White? Because it's the same, to bring him in again, Ruben Almerim, it's the same as the Bruno Fernandes, isn't it, in that system. Morgan Gibbs-White, I don't think suits that system. Laz is not wedded to three at the back at all. In fact, he told me face-to-face his favourite formation is 4-4-2. Interesting. Guy? I think he's three at the back. He played it at Frankfurt and he played it at Palace. I think he's three at the back, yeah. Interesting. He's not wedded to it. So did he fall into intrigue category?

46:35No, I think he, I disagree. Even if he told you that, I'd disagree. I think he is wedded to it because the evidence is there. He was lying. I'm saying that, yeah. No, because I think the evidence is... I was gullible and fell for it. That's what you're saying, Gary. Yeah. He wanted to look like he was a tactical flexibility. Yeah. You've been conned, Alisson. You've been conned. You've been conned. Yeah, I'm trying to think of a game of the action. He played it at Frankfurt when they went to the Europa League final. You know, he had a contest on the left wing. Okay, Gary, it's just big devil's advocate.

47:05Week in, week out, he must have changed to a 4-4-2 at times. He was always three from every time I saw him. Every game? And there might have been the odd game. No, I was going to say, I was about to say, I've not seen a Palace game. But the thing what he did is, A, he improved Mitchell a lot. And when they signed Munoz, Munoz was perfect for that system. Because it was a bang, run down there, cut it back, either to the other wing back or to someone like Eze. So now they've lost, okay. And also he had like, things like Eze and Saar and these other people, you know, playing off the striker. He had the right striker for it as well.

47:39So he had all the little pieces that worked for his system. The question is whether he's got the same at Forest. Diamande's coming in. He's very wanted at Palace, sporting defender. So he'll be like one of the three. Well, the one that interests me, you've lost Elliot Anderson and replacing that player is going to be very, because he was the heartbeat in Nottingham Forest last year. I don't think they survived without Elliot Anderson last year. So it's going to be a tough gig for him. You don't think it's as straightforward as, you know, European football? You're losing the best player that they had.

48:12It was very important. It was vital in lots of different... His ball-winning ability. He gets in the England squad what he'd done last year with Forest and with the under-21s. It's a big player to lose. So they're worrying for you then, actually, Nottingham Forest? I'd be... Well, look, they haven't got to the window and finished the window, but they've done very little business. You know, Tom, you have to... Their success was buying players and sometimes it was rash. I just felt like it was scattergun approach. But when they bought loads of players, they always had lots of choice. At the moment, I'm not so convinced of what they're going to do about the Elliot Anderson position because you had Walton at Crystal Palace who did that, not quite as well about Anderson but was still a really good player.

48:53Well, he bought Schlager who he knows and is going to bring Dermonde, the defender. And I imagine he was just getting the other little bits after that. That's a big ask, to fill that role. It's a big ask. Gary, where would you put them? Worrying or intriguing? No, I think they'd be intriguing. But you know what you're going to get with Klasner. I think he's not going to be anything other than that is his system. This is the actual big, big debate. I need to make sure, don't I, that for the planning, after about two weeks, you two need to be back on. I need to send you both to a Crystal Palace game.

49:24So you can be like, ha, told you, 4-2-3-1. I'm not predicting how he'll line up. No, no, no. What I'm saying is, it's not his persona that doesn't define him the way it did define Reuben Amarok. You've picked your camps now. You're Oliver, Mr. Flexible, and Gary is 3-4-3. It would be funny if he played a completely different option to both of them. Yeah, that would be really funny. You mentioned Morgan Gibbs-White. Where do you think he can play in that system? That's what I worry about. It's the same point. When I watched them, I loved watching them, He was kind of in front of Elliot Anderson.

49:58He was Anderson's ball the whole time, through the lines, break the lines, and everything was built around him. If it is a 3-4-3 system, you lose that player, don't you? Because you start, whether you have him as one of those wide forwards drifting in, not as effective. Could he not play as one of the two behind the striker? I don't know whether that's as effective, though, as building it around him in a kind of traditional number 10 role. Anyway, love watching Morgan Gibbs-White play. I'm sure he will make a success of it. Anyway, let's talk about Oliver Glasner's old team, Crystal Palace. European football again for Crystal Palace but a new manager and again maybe business not been as exciting as they hoped lost an awful lot of players from where they were at the start of last season I think I'm maybe in the worried category a little bit are we?

50:40maybe? a little I mean they seem to go through these periods of being redundant as a football club in buying players it's Ben TK still their highest transfer Christian Ben TK potentially No, no, no. Brennan Johnson. Oh, Johnson. Just, just. So that's what? 35 million? But Brennan Johnson, who's now... Brennan Johnson. Who's now... Back to Leeds. Oh, I think it's Stran Larsson as well. Stran Larsson as well. Stran Larsson, yeah. Who was a big signing. But I mean, Brennan Johnson, who has now looked to be on a swap deal for Dwight McNeil. I mean, one of the... Probably goes down as one of the worst transfers in Premier League history, doesn't it?

51:10Brennan Johnson to Chris Palace. But anyway, coming back to Palace and the team and the squad, it doesn't... I'm not... I wouldn't be filled with confidence, would you, despite the fun of the Europa League trips? Alison, Gary? Well, I am worried, but I think I'm worried mainly because it's the post-Glasner era. They overachieved so widely, it's hard to see how it won't feel a bit of a damp squib now. But that might be to do a disservice to Pierre Saj, but I don't know enough about his comparative abilities to Glasner. Gary? You know, you can't rest as many players in Europa League as you can in the Conference League.

51:55I think that's going to be one thing. So they're going to need a deeper squad. But like I mentioned in the plans window, they tend to always deal late. You know, they kind of slightly irritate. They irritated Pulis, they irritated Glasner by dealing late, but that's how they do it. So I suspect there's still going to be a flurry of deals. They need to kind of get another centre-back in. They probably need a couple of other players as well, just for the depth really. Another midfield player. Leafs have helped Wharton. It looks like Wharton's definitely not going to go for another year, so they've held on to him.

52:26That's a huge... But I think it's probably a bit... You wouldn't say worried with them because you can't see them going down, but they may not be quite what they were last season. That's worried, Gary. They're the only categories you've got. You can't make up your own, I'm afraid. I'm half worried, half intrigued. Excellent. Fulfilling the Gregor Robertson role of sitting firmly on the fence. Let's mention Everton there. I was talking about Dwight McNeil and that swap deal. Everton and David Moyes. I'm a little worried about them as well. I'm not sure the signings have been particularly exciting.

52:59That first season in that beautiful new stadium, David Moyes. I just wonder whether in their modern football terms, I love David Moyes as a manager. I think he's been fantastic in the Premier League for so long. I think he and Everton just fit. It would be great to see someone like Jack Grealish go back there and give everyone a lift. But I just wonder with certain areas of their fan base, whether in this modern world of where they see so much change all around them, new managers coming in, whether poor old David Moyes will be seen as a bit fed up of David Moyes. We've had him loads. Time for a change.

53:31Time to freshen it up. What do we think about Everton? John? love the Hayden that Hackney signing yes absolutely the best player in the championship last year he was but it's a big if though I think yeah he's a good footballer he's a really good footballer absolutely brilliant footballer so is Tyler Dibbling and he joined Edmonton last season and has done absolutely nothing I would say this is a much more experienced player even though he's a young man he's a much more experienced midfielder he wants to get on the ball he's quite creative so I do feel that's a good signing Norgard the experience coming in The boy from Chelsea, George.

54:07Derek George, yeah. Derek George. Don't know enough about him, but they really struggled with the two boys last season, you know, with getting goals. So it's not exciting, but I do always believe David Moyes knows how to navigate his way along the season. Yeah. And they might get a big one. They might do one big transfer, but Dwight McNeil, whether they do a swap, Not so sure how that would work out. Now, Brendan Johnson's gone from, you know, obviously from Tottenham to Palace and not got going. Can David Moynes get a tune out of him? Thoughts, Gary, Alison? I think Johnson's got 18 goals a couple of years ago for Spurs, but he's very much about, I won't say a goal hanger, but he's a guy who may...

54:51He arrives in the box late. He doesn't do the other parts of the game particularly well. I don't know whether how that's going to work with David Moynes who expects the other parts of the game, but obviously he maybe thinks he can get that out of him. I think they're a bit sort of, you know, there's definitely part of the fan base who think, you know, time for a change. I think that's probably one of the reasons why as well. He didn't, although he was interested in Bowen, you know, I think going back to West Ham for players would perhaps not go down so well with the fan base there. So I'd say slightly, slightly worrying.

55:24The Everton fans I know are, like you were hinting at, Tom, They want to change. Really? A bit jealous. Just because? Just because? Well, David Moyes is the oldest manager in the Premier League. And there are two ways of looking at it. One is that he knows the club really well. He brings stability and know-how. But the fans, they had the new stadium. And that was all very exciting. And it feels like that sort of fizzled out now, the excitement over that. They're used to it now. And they'd quite like something a bit more stardusty. Yeah. Even though, be careful what you wish for. Absolutely. As West Ham found.

56:01Yeah, absolutely. And Paul Joyce on that show I mentioned last week, he's our Merseyside man talking about how it was really close and they just missed the momentum that they had to get into Europe and what a big difference that would have made to their transfer dealings this summer as well. And they might lose Endai. And enthusiasm, yeah. Might lose. Illiman Endai, yeah, that would be a big, big loss. Let's finish with the two promoted sides that we didn't mention. Lots of love and intrigue and worry as well for Coventry City on last week's show. but not a single mention for Hull or Ipswich. What do we think?

56:29I'm very excited about Hull, mainly because their manager, Sergei Yakirovich, he's got great chat. He's got great chat. And anyone who listens to this show regularly will know that in my role as sports editor, that's what it's all about. Great chat. Say what you want about Ruben Amarin. Bang, another mention for him. He had great chat. Terrible tactics. Great chat. Hull are an amazing story. Incredible story. Everybody should be intrigued by it. I am actually worried about them, but they should be... You're all three. They are intriguing. Worried, intrigued and excited about Hull City. I'm not sure about them because they've already defied logic in that when your big chat man came along, his remit was to save them from relegation from the championship.

57:09How on earth do you go from that being your raison d 'etre to being promoted to the Premier League? And I think from memory they had the fourth worst goals conceded record. Yes, it was often very tight games. Wow. How do you do that? And it felt like the football gods were sort of playing a little game. And they said, I know, we'll make sure Southampton don't make the playoff final. And then Middlesbrough do. And that means Middlesbrough never win at Wembley. And that means Hull, even though they've got this ridiculous comparative record, and scraped into the playoffs. They will get into the Premier League.

57:52that does not that is fascinating in itself but is it enough to keep you in the Premier League interestingly apparently according to our producer Hull should have been relegated based on expected goals last season and an expected goals table they would have been relegated and as you mentioned Alison that was one of the great bits of chat that he gave in their promotion party when he said I came here to keep you in the Championship I failed I'm sorry Hull fans I failed hope he keeps that enthusiasm going with Olly McBurney putting noses out of joint up front running around terrorising defences but is Olly McBurney their main hope again.

58:23Who cares? Who cares? It'll be a great fun. There's a couple of things on the heart. I mean, I watched them in, I did the game against Millwall, the both games. I didn't concede a goal in the playoffs. No, no. You know, home and away against Millwall. But that was a very different tactic. He got to the playoffs and went, right, let's get up. He went, switched it to a pack five, really, and did it brilliantly well. I mean, it is interesting this year. Their record signing is a goalkeeper and he's also brought in Jack Butlan. I don't know if he realises, but he can't play two goalkeepers in a game at the same time.

58:49It's going to be a challenge for him. It really is. But an exciting one. But I think they'll relish it. Yeah, absolutely. I think they've got that. That's got to be the MMA. They've got that thing coming up of where they weren't expected to. They're the surprise candidate of the wild card. They're looting from a few years ago, aren't they? Yeah. They've got nothing to lose. And I think, therefore, it's exciting. And my mother-in-law is a Hull fan, so I have to put them in that category. Ipswich, Gary O 'Neill. I'm a bit worried about Gary O 'Neill. Yeah. I think this might be... This will either be the beginning of Gary O 'Neill in the Premier League, chapter two or this will be his last job in the Premier League I think and I wonder whether it might be the last one thoughts he's quite a confident boy he is absolutely absolutely and that confidence might go a long way quite a confident man and that confidence might go away but I think they're going to struggle they've made signings you know Issa Diop in centre defence is a good signing a decent Sasha Lukic Sasha Lukic and these are good players who've played in the Premier League before but maybe weren't I think Nukic is a good player actually I think that's a for a promoted club I think that is a decent signing okay we're going intrigued then Alison we're going intrigued no I'm worried about this but I think Diop and Nukic are good signings yeah Maeda as well I think that's a good signing that's a very exciting signing but again it's a Gary's not happy I'm not really having any of it no it's funny Alison isn't it everyone who sits in that seat it's sometimes Tom Allnott they always look at me it's such a disparaging like oh bless Tom you haven't got a bloody clue have you honestly deary me interesting though lovely kit though it's Rich Town I've got to say at least they've got that going for them we'll leave it there I think we've done it we've wrapped up everyone I'm sure I've probably not mentioned a team go on a team we haven't mentioned I think I technically gave a quick mention to teams like Sunderland and Leeds last week but listen very quickly Sunderland and Leeds intrigue, exciting, worried Tony Sunderland I wouldn't say exciting intrigue yeah European football great I think I think Leeds will do really well.

1:00:49Leeds will do really well. Sunderland. They underperformed to their stats. Yeah. So I think they've got room to throw into being a better team. If Leeds are spending 120 grand a week on Harry Wilson and they're also improving other contracts, they're putting monies down, aren't they? So I think they are going to be interesting this season. Yeah, I like the set up of Leeds. I think big physically, also technically and goals. And also they've got the bucket now of Bielsa in the stadium. the satchel of the bucket that's definitely the key thing that will see them over the line not James Trafford or Harry Wilson and Sunderland as well European football at the Stadium of Light cliches galore we're going to love it aren't we I think they'll do well in Europe yeah could be really fun Regis Lebris and the boys we'll leave it there though because we've got a full Premier League preview show to come and a big Football League preview show as well later in the week but for now Tony Cascarino Gary Jacob and Alison Rudd thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening see you soon

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