Who can stop Arsenal, Man city and VAR?

0:00Outdated technology isn't going to improve a disconnected healthcare system. So what will? At Optum, we wake up every day and work for better. We call it healthy optimism. It's how we use insights and technology to help providers focus less on paperwork and more on patients. Will we fix it all overnight? No, but we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's healthy optimism. Learn more at Optum.com. I'm done. Hey everyone, it's Chris Gillibeau here, host of the Side Hustle School podcast. This episode is powered by AT &T Business. In my early days, I did some of my best work in parked cars or coffee shops.

0:42But when I landed my first big contract, I realized I couldn't bet my future on a public connection that cuts out if someone turns on a blender. As a small business owner, you're already wearing at least 10 hats. You shouldn't have to be your own IT department as well. That's why I rely on AT &T Business. They keep your connectivity reliable so you have one less thing to worry about. Powered by AT &T Business, built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com.

1:16Hello and welcome to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. A Derby victory for Enzo Maresca, a dominant start for Arsenal. Lewis Dunk scoring a screamer, Tottenham not scoring at all, worries for Unai Emery and Hull are at it again. These are all things the footballing world should be talking about. But despite all the cameras, angles and replays, an error of judgment means that VAR and refereeing is dominating the agenda again. But don't worry, we will cover all that and much more on today's show. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the Times columnist and football writer James Geerbrandt and the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Chelsea is Peter Rutzler.

2:00Team, hello. How are we? Did anyone make any errors in judgment this weekend? No. No, cooked the perfect Sunday roast. Cooked the perfect Sunday roast. Thank goodness, because there were some errors of judgment. Got to talk about it. We have to start there. Of course, we do. Apologies already from Pro Ref for the decision in the Manchester derby to judge Enzo Fernandez not interfering in play for Erling Haaland's goal. Where are we at, guys? Where are we at? What are our reactions to it? I'm slightly despairing. We've not got Gregor Robertson. I'm very keen to play the Gregor Robertson role and have my head in my hands.

2:35Save me. Help me. Alison. Well, they say that artificial intelligence is going to wipe out humankind within a couple of years. I would accept that trade-off for AI to be introduced in the VAR booth. because what they needed in there was something to very quickly splurge them the laws of the game. They clearly forgot. They needed a German eye summary is what you went. They needed to be reminded what was apposite in that moment and then AI could have then actually done the whole thing, I think, a good AI model. The thought that does wipe out mankind is strong enough, I think, to work out that that was outside.

3:14As long as you take the rest, fine, no problem. And I'm not saying AI should dominate football. I think we all love the way the game has always been, always used to be, which is give the on-field officials the power. If you're going to have a video assistant referee, it's got to help. I mean, that's, you know, so make it AI oriented because they clearly just forgot what they were supposed to be looking at. Remarkable world. James? What I think was so infuriating about this is Michael Oliver is refereeing this game because it's acknowledged that Michael Oliver is one of the top officials in a sort of landscape where there aren't many great officials.

3:53Michael Oliver is one of the top refs while he was doing the game. 70th minute or whatever it was, nil-nil and you've got a goal or no goal decision. Clearly, it was going to be the defining decision of the match. And I think Carrick said afterwards, it's not going to decide the league, but it decided this game. But, you know, but it could decide the league. You know, It's not beyond the realms of possibility that, you know, Man United finish two points behind Man City or Man United finish one point off the Champions League. Surely there should be some sort of mechanism, protocol, whatever you want to call it for Michael Oliver at that moment when it was, you know, clearly the decision that was going to decide the game.

4:34Say, I want to have a look at this. I want to go to the screen. And because I feel he would have got it right. But isn't that one of the mistakes? That offside decision on Enzo Fernandes is subjective. Anyway, so he should have been sent to the screen. Even regardless of his ability. I know that. But also, I think the referee, there has to be a way for the referee to kind of take it on himself and say, you know, this is the big decision of the match. I'm the official who's in charge of this match. I want to see this. I want to see the decision that's going to decide this game. You know, in rugby, for example, you quite often have situations where something is referred to the TMO and the TMO will be looking at it, but the ref will also be watching it on the screen and you'll often have, you know, a situation where the TMO is sort of umming and ahhing and the ref will go, look, stop me if I'm wrong, but what I'm seeing here is, you know, yada, yada, yada.

5:27And yeah, it's frustrating. It's one of the many frustrating parts of it, isn't it, Pete? I mean, because the decision was correct on the field and even people not seeing the angle for Erling Haaland, Then he's judged to be onside. But it's just absolutely baffling. Obviously, the news last night, as it stands, if you hadn't seen it, contact has been made with Manchester United this evening. This is the pro-ref statement. To acknowledge that error of judgment that I mentioned, a review of the incident will take place. Wonderful. I love reviews into incidents that were wrong just because people didn't know the rules.

5:59Pete, what was your reaction to watching this? Because I was sat there, I was watching it with my wife. My wife was going, gosh, there's a lot of rules, isn't there? And then after about five minutes go, so what's happened? And I was like, I don't know. I have no idea. And neither did Gary Neville and neither did Peter Drury. And no one knew. Well, initially I was pretty infuriated with how they were describing what they were seeing. It's like, oh, I'm not sure. He does look offside about Harlan in particular without acknowledging the fact that the camera angle is not dead on. That's not the angle it's going to do.

6:25Anyway, that was by the by by the time we get to Fernandes. But yeah, as Jane was saying, also if you look at the way the game was refereed, Michael Oliver got most of the things right. Now we can debate about Phil Foden. I think it's a red card. There's a debate about whether Bruno Fernandes should have been sent off. He certainly should have been at least booked. May have missed that. But I don't think you get the same sort of furore and anger when you have a situation like the Fernandes one where it should be very, very clear. It's a human error. Obviously, we're talking about the use of technology, but it's a human error.

6:58And I don't understand how there's a VAR and there's an assistant VAR, how the two of them together have come to that conclusion. That, for me, is more worrying about the quality of the officiating, or at least the interpretation of what the rule should be. And then, obviously, you get the sort of prabder-esque statement where it says he didn't play the ball. And it's like, well, don't believe your eyes kind of thing. Michael Carrick, the Manchester United manager, said afterwards, the explanation I got was that he, Fernandes, wasn't interfering with play. So I just don't get it. I can't understand.

7:26In the statement, he says it was established that Ender-Fernandes did not play the ball. And therefore, that makes any offside often subjective. That's what I mean. But he did play the ball. He made a diving header. So that was then the follow-on. However, on this occasion, the VAR did not recognise the likely impact of his position and should have recommended an on-field review. I mean, that was also a remarkable scenario of it where the goal was being given and you had Gary and the commentators going, oh, I think there'll be an apology for this later. What a world we're in. What a world we're in.

7:52Hard to imagine anything worse optics-wise than a decision being given and sort of relayed by the PL match centre on social media as if it's objective fact, you know, it has been, you know, it was deemed that so-and-so did not play the ball. And you've got the lead commentator on the broadcast going out to millions of people saying, well, they've got this wrong. They're going to realise they've got this wrong. Apology coming. And he was absolutely right. I mean, hard to imagine anything more kind of excruciating for the refereeing body than that, really. I think last time I was on here, I did say like, oh, it's been, VAR's been alright.

8:34Yes, you did. Yeah, yeah. You upset me quite a lot with that. I know, but it wasn't, you know, clearly they were trying to be more hands-off with things. We end up with this, with these kind of scenarios and we end up, Domine, talking about stuff that's not happened on the field. And like I said before, like the officiating was fine in this game. Yeah. I thought. Just very quickly then on the, we'll come on to Arsenal. On the subject of being fine on the field, on the red card for Phil Foden. Again, quite a divisive one, but as you say, Pete, one where you kind of settle with the decision because at least it's been made in front of them.

9:05I'm kind of of the view that it's either two yellow cards or two red cards. What do we think about that, James? Yeah, I think it was six of one, half dozen of the other, tit for tat, you know, whatever whorey or cliche you want to use. It was, you know, two yellows, two reds. I'm not really bothered, but I think it should have been the same punishment for both players. Pete? Yeah. At the time, I did think... The least convincing yes ever on the game podcast. Like, Bruno Fernandes has been cute there, hasn't he? he's done it deliberately I don't know if it's violent conduct I don't think it's great I mean when you watch it at real speed which we never seem to do these days when you watch it at real speed it's one of those little digs that you'd give a yellow for if Foden rolls around which is what Micah Richards I think said in his analysis then it's all on Fernandes what happens next Foden kicks out with two feet into his midriff like it's that for me is that's violent conduct I think that's quite clearly a red card I'm not sure I'm not as sure on Bruno Fernandes which is why I'm a bit so you're more you're kind of can make peace with the decision like I said before if the referee just goes on what he sees you can understand why he would have given it but then obviously with the fact that there are more eyes supposedly than yeah Alison it's two yellows two yellows definitely interesting but I feel like again this comes back to maybe Pete's point about the overall officiating and the influence of EAR we're kind of talking about that decision and going Michael Oliver's made a call here James and I think it's one of the you've got to do but it's the same for both you think it's two yellows peak and kind of get on board with it the problem with the offside isn't it is that it shines a light again on the involvement of the video assistant referees now we don't have our main campaigner for the removal of var with us today he's busy doing something else which i'll mention later on but what are your positions currently on var in an ideal world would you get rid of it i'm very much been converted by gregor on this show i would absolutely get rid of it if i could i don't think i can but if i could i would but you watch a lot of football without var and i absolutely love it and I was overjoyed to hear our colleague Martin Samuel on Thursday's show talk about how West Ham have dropped down into the Championship and he's like yeah it's good, it's good mate, it's good and I was like yes Martin, come on the comeback starts here.

11:13Just very quickly would we scrap it firstly? Well yes yes because who's consuming football? The fans and people who quite like to have a look at it. Everybody who watches football prefers it without the VAR so get rid of the VAR on that basis alone it's what the people want yeah yeah i'm swinging towards it much more i've previously i've talked about why i'm the whole application of var changes what the rules are the rules are gray far encourages black and white and i think that's that's a tension that you're never going to resolve you can tweak the rules every year which we're seeing and we're just going to keep going down these rabbit holes and we'll end up with long lists of what can be done and what can be done it'll be scrutinized handball was the perfect example who knows what handball is really now yeah so for me that's that's it's really pushing me but i always come back to like there are there are moments where it is quite useful and like i said a couple weeks ago when it when it's very light touch when it's just left to officials and you go okay i can get on board what they're saying once once you pivot and just think we should be getting everything right yeah then it's a different it's a we're aiming for a different conclusion i think of its application so but yeah i'm i'm not completely there but it's becoming more and more difficult james Yeah, I would get rid of it, to be honest.

12:26Yeah, interesting. Get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk with reviews on technology, on the people who are using it and what the future of officiating looks like in this country. Now, delighted to say about 12, 13 minutes in, we can actually talk about some football because there is plenty of it to talk about. Charlotte Dunker was one of our reporters at Old Trafford for this game. She sent me some thoughts both on how Manchester United struggled and a great win for Manchester City. This is what she had to say. Well, hello from an empty Old Trafford, where obviously the main talking point is that Manchester City's perfect start to family league continues.

12:59Another three points for Enzo and Mariska's side. And I think maybe the most impressive thing about them is that we haven't seen them yet in full flow. Things are clicking at times, but there are definitely areas of their game that they need to improve. But here today at Old Trafford, 23 minutes they went down to 10 men because Phil Foden was sent off for violent conduct. More on that in a second. and they still came out and emerged victorious in this derby. So whatever was thrown at them today, they overcame it. I thought that Enzo Moreska's tactics worked expertly. At half-time, he brought Endione on and instead of just going defensively and thinking they just need to sit through, you can see the game out, but they still went on and attacked him.

13:37Of course, it was Erling Haaland too, but the goal from Manchester City, there's lots of contention around that goal because Erling Haaland himself, he looked outside, he was flabbed outside, the celebrations were cut short it then went to VAR and it was a really long VAR delay and we were looking at the replays on the screen thinking that it was going to be disallowed. In the end it wasn't disallowed because it was Enzo Fernandez who was in the offside position but it was determined that he wasn't interfering with play even though it did look like he attempted to play the ball. Michael Kavik just said in his post about the best conference that he doesn't understand.

14:08He said all these things are going to help the officials and he still didn't understand why the goal was given. but back to the other contentious decision was the wife card in the first half for Phil Foden even though Enzo Moresca himself came out and said that Phil Foden should have been sent off it was a boot straight in Bruno Flanders midfield but there was a bit from the United captain where he just seemed to leave a boot in first on Phil Foden so Enzo Moresca's view is that if Phil Foden was going to get sent off then Bruno Flanders should have got sent off as well. The United captain did stay on the pitch and City went out to 10 men for the majority of the game but anyone here watching this game that had missed that sending off you wouldn't have guessed that it was manchester city that were playing with 10 men elliot anderson again was absolutely exceptional and manchester united they just really really struggled and i think the frustration probably from the home fans here is that manchester united had a one-man advantage for the majority of this game they were at home and they just failed to really do anything right up until the last minute when emblema tested donnarumma with a really good shot up until that point they just weren't doing anything at all to test Manchester City.

15:12Going forward they looked dire, the full backs in Dorgoo and Deleu, they just really really struggled. Yeah they just looked short of imagination, they looked short of ideas and especially coming up against a Manchester City side who were still in this teething process under Enzo Morescu and more importantly were down to 10 men so there's plenty of things for Michael Carrick to be concerned about. They've got four points from their opening four games, plenty for Manchester City to be excited about, flying high at the top of the table just beneath Arsenal. Four wins out of four for them. We're obviously going into a League Cup week and then there's one more round of Premier League fixtures before the international break.

15:46Michael Carrick's going to hope for a reaction or there's going to be talk about him over that international break because there just wasn't enough from him. Why wasn't Benjamin Sesko brought on earlier? Manchester United's attack was just really lacking that focal point and we were lacking anything, to be honest. Yeah, Manchester United are really, really poor today. But all credit goes to Manchester City, even when they went down to 10 men, they struck their game plan. Obviously, when you've got Erling Haaland in your team, you always know that you're capable of scoring a goal. So they came here, their fans had a marvellous time.

16:15Nor Balaga was pictured celebrating in the front of the away end there. So a great away day for them, a poor afternoon for Manchester United. And it'll be interesting to see how they recover from that because they've got Brighton here on Wednesday night. Obviously, they're going to want to go through in a cup competition and get back to winning ways in the league. So another big week for Manchester United. But yeah, the Manchester City winning machine keeps rolling on. So guys, some good points made by Charlotte. They're focusing, thankfully, on the football. And I wanted to start with Manchester City and Enzo Maresca.

16:44Four wins from four. That glow up continues. I thought as well, so instructive at the end of the game. Down the touchline, Jose Mourinho-esque. Fist pumping to the away fans and Noel Gallagher in the press conference afterwards. Nice little witty lines. Happy Erling, happy life. Oh, my wife won't like that. Pete, you must be sat there as a Chelsea man thinking, Enzo, mate, where the hell was this? The start with Chelsea, but it was going quite well at that point. Yes, absolutely. Well, so what have you made of this start at Manchester City then? You offered words of caution in the preview show about what an Enzo Maresca Manchester City team might do when people like me were saying, look, he's got everything he needs.

17:24He's got a great squad. He's got huge talent. There's flux all around him apart from Arsenal. There's no reason why they can't challenge. You offered caution on that. about his style, what have you made watching it so far? Because this win, regardless of VAR, was impressive. Yeah, this win's very impressive. And I think it does a lot for his standing with the group. You know, we've talked a lot about the shadow of Pep Guardiola. And I think when you come through these sort of games, you know, when the manager can instruct your team to pull off a 1-0 victory, the local rivals having been down to 10 men so early, I think that's really important.

17:57Even just watching sort of Erling Haaland's post-match interview, you can see how much he loved that. He loved that win. The resilience, the character. Something he said he'd never really experienced before. In isolation, this is a great result. It was quite a different reaction to 10 men than when Chelsea went there last season. It's been quite funny to cover Chelsea, just seeing what the fan reaction is. Last year, went to Old Trafford, went down to 10 men, took all the forwards off. Then United went down to 10 men and Chelsea didn't really have much to bite back with. This time, just made a subtle switch in Jai for Shirky.

18:27Shirky is the one I mentioned before. Shirky for me is the barometer of Mareska's football because he's such a free spirit and you can see how structured he wants it to be. I think the first half an hour or so wasn't great. It was a similar sort of theme that can happen with this football where the tempo isn't there. When they play with tempo, they can be effective. You think actually, as a few people have said, the 10 men actually helped them because it gave them a clear... Yeah, Mareska said this as well because it put the onus on United and United are very good in transition and we haven't really seen United as a possession dominant team that can really take it to an opponent, particularly an opponent with the calibre of players of Manchester City.

19:04This is a really good start. I think there are some things they still need to iron out, particularly in midfield. It was interesting to see Fernandes, where I thought he would play, which is where he played at Chelsea, which is in that sort of left half space, but just how isolated that left Elliot Anderson in the middle, because then you put Scherke on the side, and Scherke is a very, very forward-thinking player. As I said, he's not someone you want to put in a box. that for me is what will need to change for the system to keep working I was actually surprised at how attacking he sort of went in terms of the personnel with Semenya on one side and you have Cherky and Foden as well was before his dismissal but yeah this is a very good start for him I think this kind of result is really really important for just getting the group behind them they have got quality through the squad let's see how they do in some of the games where we're not focused like these big games obviously Chelsea were fantastic in the big games under him.

19:57So I'm not too surprised about this result, but let's see how they do when they face Hull, when they face Coventry. Obviously, they play Coventry, but you know what I mean? Yes. Those games are the spotlight, isn't there? James, thoughts on Maresca's City and also some of the points Pete has made there about what we might see with this team? Well, I sort of thought that City were being a bit sort of, I was surprised by how negative people were being about City so far this season. Just about the sort of general outlook for City, I think they've got Haaland, who I think it's pretty clear is, you know, one of the very, very best players in the world, probably the best goal scorer in the world.

20:36And, you know, whilst Mareska has, you know, is maybe not everyone's favourite manager stylistically, I think he's been pretty successful, kind of, you know, the results have been fairly good, you know, wherever he's gone in what admittedly is quite a brief managerial career. it I it was a hard it's a hard game to really draw you know 10 v 11 is always a hard game to really draw conclusions from I did think it was an outstanding finish from Harland yeah much much you know better than than he really seemed to get credit for and they've got you know they've got world-class centre forward I think they've got a world-class goalkeeper as well Anderson was given man of the match but but and I thought he played well but but I really like and I'm impressed by Gaye I really feel that he's kind of growing in stature in this team I see kind of feels like he's really developing as a kind of leader in this team I I still yeah I I you know obviously you know four games into the postcardio the project I still feel there are a lot of kind of you know unanswered questions sort of you know in between goalkeeper and center forward but But they have, you know, I think they have really good players still.

21:53And, yeah, I think, you know, it certainly wouldn't be a surprise to see them challenging Arsenal right up at the top. You say it's only four games in and can you draw conclusions when it's 10 against 11. I actually think it crystallised for me that this is going to be a good season for Man City. Because I thought my initial, as I was watching it, I was thinking, wow, this is a masterclass on how to be down to 10 men and still dominate the game and still look like the most threatening team and to be incredibly cool about it. They weren't ruffled by it at all. And then I thought, hang on a minute.

22:29It's a masterclass in how to be down to 10 men because each player they've got on the pitch is almost the best in their position in the world. I mean, they've got staggeringly good players that are better than the Man United players. So when you do go down to 10 men, you can absorb that fact because you are better than your opponent. And you make a little tweak to make sure that you get extra legs on the pitch because Man United were very passive. So go at them. Yeah. But also deny them space to run into and transition. But it wasn't just tactical. It was a sense that at no point when I watched that did I think there's a man missing in this.

23:07Yeah. Yeah. They never once looked like they were down to Timland, which is quite a feat. And also very damning for Manchester United, isn't it? Charlotte mentioned that they didn't do enough with that extra man. And I completely agree. If anything, they seem to go slower. And I mean, the goal is obviously hugely controversial, but the build-up to it is disastrous from Manchester United. I think they allow the ball to bounce. Tee players watching it in midfield. No one going, I'm going to take hold of the ball. I think Dorgoo gives the ball away. Charlotte, in her note, obviously outlined plenty of the problems, some that I've just summarised there.

23:39Also at fullback, very nice, seemed like a nice bloke, Diogo Dallow, but if he's being celebrated for 250 appearances for Manchester United, I think nothing crystallises their fullback issue more. Are we starting to see the kind of hangover for Michael Carrick now this season? Do we think four games in, I think it's four points from those games, not particularly tough start. Hull, Ipswich, Everton, and then a Manchester derby against 10 men. Four points is not enough for this Manchester United team, it's embarrassing really that this was a derby game you're going Roy Keane it's a derby there was a big psychological when Phil Foden was sent off there was a psychological shift and the psychological shift was you could actually see it in the body language of the Man United players they thought we've won this this is great we're down to 10 men we've won this I've moaned on this podcast about them not going through the gear changes when you're supposed to when they do it they look great but when they don't do it it's ultimately he should have noticed what happened and it's not unforgivable that if you're playing in a match and your opposition go down to 10 men you feel good about it I mean that's fair enough but to stop playing because they've gone down to 10 men is unforgivable Yeah got to then capitalise haven't you really interesting we'll see if they can bounce back they've got a cup game with Brighton in the week we're going to mention some more of those Cup games in a second just a quick word on Arsenal after their win at Sunderland it's just one question and one thought I was in the Times offices working for the Sunday Times this weekend watching this game and I thought Davi Raya brilliant penalty save Bruno Guimaraes off the bench with a stunning goal pretty relentless does anyone else wonder whether Arsenal could go unbeaten this season can I have a yes or no no they won't they won't go unbeaten that does not but that does not imply that they're not exceptionally good and David Ray was my player of the season last year and that's why they won the title and that's why they might win it again partly because of just how exceptional a keeper he is but we're only four games into the season other big clubs will get better and I think there'll be plenty of not plenty of scares but there'll be one along the way they have already beaten your title favourites Chelsea though Alison they're fending people off as Alison says I've done a classic podcast host and gone way too early with that hot take.

26:07But you're putting me back in my box, James, Pete, on that one as well? Hull will beat them. Hull will beat them? Yeah. Hull will beat them. Well, no. I mean, last season was about beating Mourinho's 15-goal season, wasn't it? Defensively, that is. And you can see them pushing that again. That's the record they won. Well, yeah, I think that's the one that they've enjoyed. I mean, they're an exceptional defensive team and they've not got particularly close to beating that record ever. That record, for me, is almost untouchable. Yeah. If they get anywhere close, if they get anywhere close to that Chelsea defensive record, I would be incredibly impressed.

26:45You'd be more impressed or amazed than if they went unbeaten. Yes, absolutely. Conceding 15 goals in a 38-game season is crazy. If Arsenal get anywhere near that, I will be amazed. Will you wear a feather bow at the point? Yeah, I think I would consider that. Wonderful. I didn't expect that to be the conclusion of that. So plenty of teams that could beat Arsenal, then I'll calm down, I'll calm down. But I'm just saying they look good. That's not to say they're not good. It just means... No, they do look... Let's give the other teams time to get their act together. The squad depth's fantastic. It's just stat by Bill Edgar in today's paper about how 47 % of their touches in the opposition half have been on the right.

27:23You've got Saka White and Odegaard combining. They've got that going again. Odegaard looks great, doesn't he? After a bit of a down season last season, He looks, you know, outstanding. World Cup Odegaard. We got him, Alison. We got him. We said during the World Cup and we got him. And Alison, let's bring you in. You were at Villa Park to watch a worrying bit of performance for Aston Villa and Unai Emery. I really enjoyed your piece in the Sunday Times on this one. We'll come on to a good win for Nottingham Forest in just a second. But you posed the question whether this was a puzzle that maybe Unai Emery can't solve.

27:57Well, he believes he can. And this is, I mean, I think the faith in Unai Emery is quite astonishing. I think most people who work in football would say he's an exceptional coach and he made the FIFA shortlist for coach of the year for winning the Europa League and just generally being an amazing coach in Europe. And that's what the Ballon d 'Or is about. But it's almost like a parody account now because they're throwing so much at him. Can he possibly solve it? In his programme notes, he said he'd read from afar that the spine of the team had gone, the spine of the Villa team had gone, and he said this is not true.

28:41They sold six first-team players. This is not true, he said, because the spine of the team is not the six players who left. The spine of the team is the culture and the fans. The building, the way the team is run. Memories made along the way. and so you kind of think wow does he does he is he just very good at corporate speak or does this man actually believe that you can rip the heart out of a club and rebuild do you think he can because you've interviewed many many top managers you've sat in many press conferences listening to him do you think do you think he believes it or is he i think he does believe it right genuinely does think it but but i think it might even be there's a possibility it might be too much for him.

29:24So half the problems he has and to rebuild whilst in the Champions League is asking an awful lot. Where they did win in the week, we should say. but they only beat, I say only, this sounds rude about Club Bruges, but Club Bruges are not great. Nottingham Forest are a much better team than Club Bruges, I would say, in terms of organisation. Yeah. And the threats posed as an opponent. But they looked, Villa looked really, really, their first half was okay. Second half, they looked knackered. They looked really tired. They were very loose and shoddy and struggled to keep up with play almost. They were exhausted.

30:00That's going to be the impact of playing in Europe whilst rebuilding. Rebuilding itself is exhausting and it might be a troubling season. But I mean, I'd back Unai Emery to keep form going in the Champions League because he understands Europe. But the overall impact of rebuild and European football on the team and at home, they've got a missing stand because they're rebuilding the North Stand. I think it's asking an awful lot. It's really interesting to hear him say that, to try and convince himself that it's not the spine that's gone when we've seen throughout his tenure he's used the same players.

30:35I think that's one of the things that's made him stand out, why his job has been so exceptional, is that he took the players that Steven Gerrard couldn't get a tune out of and has got them into the Champions League more than once. What it might do is then shine a spotlight on the recruitment, which, yes, they've had issues with PSR, trying to comply with PSR, financial regulation, obviously SCR now. At the same time, there isn't the same looking going, okay, well, who have you signed? And if you go through, I've had a look this morning at some of the bigger signings that they made. It's very 50-50.

31:07Evan Gesson is now at Palace. Tamier Brown's come in, he's done okay. They put wages on for Sancho and Javi Elliott. That's last summer. Anana's done well the season before. Mattson,£35 million player. Marlon came in and gone. Cabernaccia came in and gone. Moussa Diaby was a great signing season before, but injuries. Diego Carlos, if you go just before, Emery, Coutinho. They spent money and it hasn't been successful, which is why we've ended up in a situation, most likely, where you've had to do a sharper rejig of the squad to pull out of the spine, probably which you would like to have done in a more graded way.

31:43And this is what happens if you're going to do that, if you're going to make those kind of changes. It's going to be a big transition. Now, it looks like they've got some players this summer that have come in that look like they're going to perform. Manzambi, I know you've spoken a lot about him. Maggio from Mets. The keeper looks, Zion Suzuki, looks like a really smart acquisition. Again, there's adaptation. I mean, Alisson looks really good this season, but he's had a year, hasn't he, to sort of adjust. They've sort of got themselves into this position where they've had to pull the rug out from underneath them a bit.

32:10And that's going to hurt. And there is the, I'm not saying that financial regulations have not hurt them, But there is a consequence. You have to be pretty bang on, particularly if you're on Villa statue where the revenue isn't as high as the big six, quote unquote. And yeah, that I think plays a part. And obviously they've paid big salaries as well to keep that spine, which is only sustainable for a certain amount of time. But the joy, the joy of this match, I feel like I've painted quite a bleak picture. I love a bit of joy. And this is really in honour of Gregor Robertson. it is a privilege to watch John McGinn in the flesh.

32:47Seriously, and I'm not just saying it for a laugh, the man is a genius. He's everything. So he wears the captain armband, but he wears it like you should wear it. He's a proper leader. He's always there, always there for the out ball, always backing up his teammates. He delivers the most beautiful crosses you'll see on a regular basis. He's intelligent on the ball. He always seems to make the right decision. He covers a lot of ground. He has bursts of pace. He's just the most, can play anywhere, I would argue. And he pops up everywhere. He too got tied in the second half. And the first half in particular, he was, I just thought, wow.

33:27If he had been part of the group that left, they would, I would say, bleh, relegation. He is so, so important. If I was a Villa fan, I would go to bed hugging a cushion with his face on it. I think Gregor Robertson actually does that. A quick word, though, for Nottingham Forest, because it's a good win for Oliver Glasner and a wonderful goal from Liam De La. He looked like at least a£50 million strike. Yeah, because not only did he score a goal, he forged with a strong run and then beautiful strike, really packed full of self-belief. But other than that, he had a goal disallowed, shot into the side netting, generally put himself about full of energy and confidence.

34:11I don't think I saw once when he was at Chelsea. We forget with De Lapp at Chelsea. He had a hamstring injury in the first half of the season. And it takes time to get back into form. He comes back in and Joel Pedro is absolutely flying. We've seen how effective he is. So we can sort of, we go, oh, it just didn't work. But the reality is we never really saw him as sharp as he looked against Villa. There's clearly a player there. And I think it's actually interesting. I mean, clearly Xavi Alonso has looked at him and gone, I'm not sure this is the right place for you. But considering how direct Chelsea now are, and, you know, he would have maybe had more of an impact.

34:43But yeah, I mean, his season, you know, sometimes it works at clubs, sometimes it doesn't. Positive start for Liam de Lappe and good news for Nottingham Forest, but worries for Aston Villa. It's time to take a quick break. We've got loads more to discuss in just a second, but a little quiz question to take us there. Morgan Rodgers became the fifth different player to score or assist in each of Chelsea's first four games of a Premier League season. He's got three goals and one assist. Can you name the other four? Find out after the break.

35:39easier. The day pack supports cognition, focus, and cellular energy production. At night, the night pack helps you wind down and supports a calm, relaxed state. Less time managing your supplements, more support for your day and night. Shop Total Human now at onnit.com. Outdated technology isn't going to improve a disconnected healthcare system. So what will? At Optum, we wake up every day and work for better. We call it healthy optimism. It's how we use insights and technology to help providers focus less on paperwork and more on patients. Will we fix it all overnight? No. But we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone.

36:22That's healthy optimism. Learn more at Optum.com. Hey, everyone. It's Adam, host of TED's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. and this episode is powered by AT &T Business. When you're building a business, momentum is everything. There's nothing worse than hitting your stride only to have a spinning loading icon bring everything to a halt. When navigating competing priorities, reliability isn't a luxury, it's a foundation. AT &T Business is built to work so you can spend less time troubleshooting and more time focusing on what actually matters. Powered by AT &T Business, built to work. Get today at business.att.com.

37:08Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got James Geerbrandt, Peter Rutzler and Alison Rudd with me. Three from four. Guys, three from four. Those are the Chelsea players to have scored or assisted in the first four games of a Premier League season. We've got Diego Costa, we've got Eden Hazard, we've got Didier Drogba, The one you didn't get, Cesc Fabregas. Cesc Fabregas in 2014-15. We will come on to Chelsea and their game with Hull in just a second. But I wanted to just jump off the back of Liam De Lappe with a brilliant long-range strike and say that I'm delighted, delighted to discover that lots of Premier League footballers clearly read the Times Football Newsletter.

37:48Because last week, I did a little ditty about the joy of a screamer and how we should bring them back. Good old Lewis Dunk. He went for it. What a stunningly, wonderfully, brilliantly random goal that was, eh? One of those where everyone's just going, Luke, Dunk's just scored from... Technique was too good for a centre-back. Too good for a centre-back. Too good for a centre-back. A brilliant, brilliant win for Brighton at Coventry. Rather worrying start to the season for Coventry. And Frank Lampard, another defeat for them. I wanted to focus on Dunk and Brighton and just have a little bit of fun to start the second half of the show with remembering some of the best long-range goals from centre-backs.

38:25I've got a big long list here, so I'll sweep up behind if we've missed any. But your nominations for best long-range goals by centre-backs, Alison, I'll start with you. Daniel Aga. Daniel Aga, tick, Liverpool, tick. Who saw that one coming? Against West Ham. Yes. And he just sort of glides forward and then stops 40 yards out and thinks, well, why not left foot? But it is beautiful because it's in the side netting. Yes. So it's not just a sort of speculative, might go in and no one's expecting it. It's really well placed and very elegant. Yes, I put this question out on social media and Chris and Paul both agreed with you on that one.

39:05Daniel Aga v West Ham. Pete? Centre backs should be scoring, they should be smashing it. They should all be like Alex. But I've not gone for Alex. Alex scored two, maybe three. Alex as in the former Chelsea centre back. I've gone for David Luiz against Fulham in 2013. It's like 35, 36, 37 yards out. So you're saying it has to have a sodding element to it. The one I've actually given you doesn't, so I've completely contradicted myself. But just wanted to put it out there. I mean, David Luiz wasn't really a proper centre-back, was he? No. I mean, there's a lot of his defending that suggested it wasn't a centre-back, certainly.

39:38James? Philippe Mech says for me, for AC Milan versus Anderlecht in the Champions League. You've never seen it. Check it out. He also scored a couple of overhead kicks as well. That's it. But I think it's long range enough to count as a long range. It's a long range overhead kick. I mean, it doesn't get better than that, does it? I think you might have won the lot there. Yeah, just to offer some balance on Merseyside, Phil Jagielka for Everton against Liverpool at Anfield. That was another cracker. Vincent Kompany are one that's getting shouted out a lot. Essentially won them the title. So, Pete, you're not on board with Philippe Albert's chip for Newcastle against Manchester United?

40:13Far too much finesse. Far too much finesse. I think William Gallas also scored a couple of good ones. I also had some excellent shouts on social media because it made me go and look up some goals. Jill says, George Campbell for West Bromwich Albion at Sheffield United last season. Maybe not the best, but definitely a good effort. And Phil sent me this one that I'd never seen before. Anthony Kaye for Barnsley versus Plymouth. That's all I'm going to say. Just look it up. It's absolutely wonderful and definitely has that element of, do you know what, I'm just going to hit this. Speaking of joy, let's talk again on this podcast.

40:44We are the podcast for whole city joy, certainly this season, because Pete, you're a believer. I am. Converted fully. Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. And also really impressed with Sergei Yakirovich. Just his personality, clearly the way he's managing the group. You know, this summer, Hull made 18 signings, right? We think, oh, OK, it's like Sunderland and blah, blah, blah. The team that faced Chelsea, eight of them were regulars in the championship. Yeah. The way he's managing them, getting the best out of individuals. Ryan Giles is a great example of that. Got two assists in this game. They were going to sell him before the end of the window.

41:18Burnley had come in. Fee agreed. Jukovic said, no, I want this guy to stay. He's been fantastic since then. Obviously brilliant yesterday. And then it comes out yesterday and the journalist goes, oh, Ryan Giles again just looks so at home in the Premier League. He's like, yes, he's very comfortable. But he can do better. He needs to believe in himself. It's just like he's got this, he does have this sort of aura as a coach, I think. I mean, obviously there's the story about Sorba Thomas flipping his car on the way to training. Rather inexplicable how that's happened, given the pictures that we've seen.

41:50Yeah, the pictures are narrow, you know, residential road. Yeah, he's absolutely fine. He came off the bench in the second half and was actually pretty, pretty effective. So again, asked, you know, what happened there? And he just goes, seen the images, Max Verstappen. He's having fun with it, isn't he? He is, he's enjoying it. And I think the players are responding to that. You know, he came in and said, of are going to have seven days off because they've reached seven to eight points talking about his staff and so ryan giles comes in afterwards and turn around quickly goes what do you think about that it's like oh i didn't know about this and then have to ask the coach about that like there's a really good there's a feel good factor with them they started really effectively but it's the way they they're really smart as well tactically very very smart they knew where they could hurt chelsea particularly in those wide areas um and yeah i'm i'm i've they've been superb.

42:37I think a lot of it is to do with the way Jekirovic is managing them. And, yeah, I mean, only two other new promoter sides have secure more points than they have at this point. So, and both of them stayed up. Forest, I think, finished third in 94-95. Do you think Chelsea underestimated them? No, I think Chelsea showed what they tend to show. I think they were just weak. The defending was pathetic, I think, particularly for the first goal. They were comfortable at the start. It felt like this was a game Chelsea scored early, which is what Hull would have wanted to avoid because Chelsea had done it in every game.

43:09And it felt like, OK, they're just going to steamroller them here. This is going to be very comfortable. The goal they concede is really schoolboy stuff. It's just a long punt from the goalkeeper. First head is missed. Malo Gusto is too weak against Ryan Giles. Giles just lumps it into the box in the air. Hato watches it, watches it bounce, goes under the ball and then leaves Bellumi to score. And you could tell with Xavi Alonso afterwards, that this is getting to him a little bit now. There's an edge of frustration there. Because you said pathetic, but he said soft, didn't he? He said soft. He said it multiple times.

43:44He said it to TV. He said it to us. Nice guy. The mask is slipping at last. It's not sustainable to keep playing this way. They're currently on course to score 95 goals, but also on course to concede 86 if they continue at this rate. And he was asked, he said, this is another entertaining game, but you've come for a draw. And he just straight away is like, You can see it. You see the one was twitch. It's entertaining, sure, but we need more boring games. We need to start winning 1-0. It's funny, obviously, Moises Cresado is an enormous miss. I think he makes a massive difference. I also, and I didn't think I'd be saying this, they do need Jordan Henderson.

44:19Just someone else. You think he needs to play? Not just for the vibes in the dressing room? Yeah, just someone to add a bit more security in that. Because it's easy to focus on just... I mean, Rhys James can clearly see that he wants him for his ability on the ball. Rhys James is an outstanding footballer. Romeo Lavia can do a bit of both. He's much more of a technical, dynamic player. He's managing just over an hour at the moment. That's a problem. And defensively, I think we're looking at some of the same issues that we've seen at Chelsea. Dropping points at home. They dropped the most at home last season than anyone else.

44:50There's now five games against newly promoted sides at home that they failed to win in a row. That's a mentality. That's mindset. And that's something that Anzema Rasko complained about. Liam Rossini complained about. The way they reacted to the setback of the goal was terrible, and we've seen that before. That became the mantra for Liam Rossini, like we need to get better at reactive setbacks, setbacks, setbacks. Hull had nothing in the first half an hour. After the goal, they had three attempts, scored twice, and left Chelsea rocking. They never really calmed the game. I mean, we haven't seen any calm games, I suppose, from Chelsea yet.

45:22But yeah, there's a fair bit to work on. Some of it's old, and some of it is slightly new. I mean, he went for a back four instead of a three, and the wing-backs caused him a lot of problems on Saturday. I'll come back to Hull in just a second. There's one question I wanted to ask. But James, Xabi Alonso was a manager. He followed his great success at Bayer Leverkusen and then his struggles at Real Madrid. What have you made of his start at Chelsea? And also some of the points that Pete's made there about this frustration around all of us going, oh, it's so much fun watching Chelsea. But as a modern day manager, that's a nightmare, isn't it?

45:51It's funny because there were a lot of that first season at Leverkusen was almost the opposite. There were a lot of close games where they seemed to prevail through almost pure mentality on some occasions. They had an unbelievable number of late winners. It was not a season where, despite the incredible unbeaten record that they had, It was not a season where they often blew teams away 4-0 or 5-0, but they had this incredibly strong mentality and just seemed to always prevail in close games or always find their way back from 2-0 down. Clearly, it's a work in progress, I think. I think the early days, but I think the front three looks, first-trust front three looks really good, back seven in whatever configuration, whether it's 4-3-3 or more of a 3-4-3 shape, they've got weaknesses there.

46:50I think some sort of weaknesses are sort of, I think, a bit inevitable because I think there are weaknesses in the squad. I don't think they have a very good left back or left wing back, for example. And they obviously clearly are having issues with being a bit light in midfield when Casado is not fit. But I think some of that can be remedied through learning the system a bit and sort of learning his way of football a bit. And I do think they will improve. Yeah, maybe it's been a bit of a reality check for people like me who thought that they might sort of be title contenders. Yeah, I think work in progress.

47:31Pete, I just wanted to finish coming back to Hull and ask about Mohamed Baloumi, the goal scorer. Great notes on social media at the weekend, And remarking on a message that Hull owner, Achun Ilichalai, had posted two years ago saying, I've got a right winger for Hull City. You won't believe it. Keep an eye on this name, Mohamed Baloumi. Everyone will be talking about this kid. A perfect talent. I mean, fair play. I mean, he got that one right, didn't he? We criticised football owners so much. Not just about him, but about this team. Are they a team of really well-drilled and well-coached individuals playing above themselves consistently?

48:07Or have they got players like maybe Balumi and others who you think, oh, this guy's a real, he's got further to go potentially with respect to Hull? Yeah, Balumi's interesting because I think he had some injury issues last year and finally got a bit of consistency and now he's showing it in the Premier League. He's two fantastic goals well taken. I think more the first, because I think the two teams that sort of come to mind were obviously Sunderland last year in terms of the impact that they had in the Premier League. But then also a bit of Sheffield United. and Sheffield United were very much a collective playing above themselves and I do think that's more of the case it'll be interesting to see once we see more of the talent that they've brought in in the summer as they sort of get bedded in a bit more but yeah, of the two, I'd say former Really interesting, all City fans keep an eye out on the Times website, you might find a reason in a couple of days as to why Gregor Robson is not here with us he's chatting to someone else today just mention a couple of other games this weekend, Bournemouth 2, Brentford 2 Brentford having hipster draws left, right and centre, aren't they, so far this season?

49:04It must be very frustrating for manager Keith Andrews. Make sure you check out the Times website now for an excellent piece by Joe Harston about their clever recruitment from Jan Alt to Sangaria, who again had another good game here. And keep an eye out for Pete's piece later in the week on Bournemouth making their debut in Europe. What a wonderful story that will be this week when they play Real Sociedad. Crystal Palace on the end of a 3-2 defeat, this time against Ipswich. Pretty good start for Gary O 'Neill. Not convinced about Palace. Great win against... He's taking risks, doesn't he? Sarge T's stealing out Canvo for this game.

49:37Did it to Gesson's, done it to McNeil. Like, it's bold, I suppose. Yeah. You need results. It's like when that sort of thing happens. Saw an interesting stat as well about Daichi Kamada has provided three assists across his last two Premier League games. This after failing to register a single gold contribution in his previous 64 appearances in the competition. Impressive uptick for Daichi Kamada, but I wonder whether that exposes a lack of midfield presence for Crystal Palace this season. Maybe this is Daishi Kamada's season. Who knows? We will find out. Let's finish again. We're talking about Tottenham at the end of the show again.

50:10A difficult game for Roberto De Zerbi and also a difficult game for Liverpool as well at Anfield against Fulham. Before we talk about Spurs and Liverpool, I wanted to briefly mention Fulham, Pete, because you did an excellent piece about Alvaro Aboloa this weekend. already under pressure going into this game. In terms of bringing joy and enjoyment this weekend, I thought their performance against Liverpool showed real promise. Yeah, fantastic. And he had to change it, basically. I think that's what we were trying to say on Friday, that they couldn't keep playing the way they were playing, which was kind of similar to Alonso in some way, just being incredibly gung-ho, but just not having the players that can mask that.

50:48And then, obviously, at the weekend, he's brought in two sixes. He brought back Sander Berger, put him next to Shea Charles. Looked far, far more secure, particularly in those transitions which was a big issue. The centre-back, David Affengrub, has come in. There's one thing I think I mentioned in the piece, he's got a bit more speed. We need a bit more speed if we're going to play this aggressively. He had a big impact. He had a really, really good debut. So, of an important result, obviously, there's still some way to go. I think October will still be defining because they play all three newly promoted teams.

51:16And there was just so much anxiety about the way they were playing. This is the kind of result that can just calm things again and allow them to sort of bed in a bit more. Really brilliant. And following last week's show, I'm a Josh King convert now, having watched this game. He's fantastic. Speaking of joy. Oh, what a wonderful, wonderful footballer to watch. Have you seen the clip of him when he cuts back on Sobherslai and Sobherslai just disappears? Yes, it just keeps going. Feet's going. Fantastic stuff. On Liverpool, I just wanted to read out Paul Joyce's excellent intro to his match report and then Alison, ask you and James about Andoni Araiola and his start to the season.

51:46Paul wrote on the Times pages, during a break-in play in the second half, Dominic Sobherslai, his arms raised outstretched above his head, gesticulated urgently to the Liverpool dugout in what seemed like a plea for instructions. A few yards away, Alisson could be seen calling for calm. It proved that sort of afternoon for Liverpool. No one on the same page. Wavelengths scrambled. A£364 million attack rendered impotent and struggling to make any impression amid a collective malaise. A back to the drawing board day then for Andoni Iraiola. Well, it's not... Not mincing his words, Paul Joyce. He's seen a lot of football at Anfield in his long career covering the club.

52:22Probably summing things up quite nicely. This is what we talked about in pre-season, isn't it? That it's maybe a bigger job than maybe people thought and only Iriola has ended up with it at Liverpool. And I think back to the drawing board is understandable as a sentiment, but that's exactly what you don't get if you employ Iriola as your manager. He has a very clear way of playing and he has to educate the players in how to do that. it takes time and that's illustrated by what Paul said about Sabulsai looking at the bench like clearly probably thought I think I'm supposed to be do something at this point I can't remember what it is this is the point at which you have to either start thinking oh it's too big a job or you accept this was always going to be the case I said it before the ball was kicked it will there will be there will be draws he's the manager who gets draws He's a drawing manager.

53:22You sort of... Drawing's not enough at Anfield, is it? You can interpret that two ways. In games where they might lose, at least they get a point. He's keeping a lid on disaster by at least getting points from games. It takes... You cannot revolutionise a team in 10 minutes. And it took him nine games at Bournemouth. Why... Had a couple of months, though, now. Why... He didn't have the players at the World Cup. he's got to be given time otherwise what otherwise what was the point of appointing him because his CV told you exactly what it would take he's not a magician these things take time time is part of the equation it's part of the ingredient list time he needs the time to get it right and if after nine games they're still only getting nil-nil with a team that were in trouble such as Fulham were Then you can start to say, maybe it's too big a job.

54:21But in a long-winded sort of way, I'm saying I'm not surprised. This was always how it was going to be. Nine games. I'm going to hold you to that. James, your thoughts on Andoni Arallo's start? We should say as well, again, much like Unai Emery and Aston Villa, getting a win in the Champions League, which is good, promising against Atletico Madrid. No mean feat. Thoughts on Alison's points about Iriola and thinking about Paul Joyce's report there? Well, just to pick up on what you said, it just occurred to me that I don't think in a funny sort of way, just because of the kind of competition that it's become, I don't think the Champions League or winning games in the Champions League, especially at this stage, I don't think it holds that much water.

54:58I mean, Tottenham won a lot of games in the Champions League group phase last year and it didn't quell the sort of negativity about Thomas Frank. And I don't think if Liverpool qualify for the Champions League, but they're really struggling in the Premier League, I don't think that that's going to really hold a lot of water for Andoni Ereola. Having said all that, I basically agree with Alisson. I think it's very, very early in the Ereola project. The squaddles, I'd also just kind of look at the team sheet. You find yourself looking at the back four and you think that is the players. I know they've had a couple of players absent with injury, but Araujo, I think it was Araujo Jacquet, who is obviously a very young, good, but new player, Van Dijk and Simakas.

55:43But there's areas of weakness in the squad as well. I don't think it's all on Ereola. One thing that I'm eager to kind of test about Ereola is I think we've seen a lot of managers do a great job at a smaller club, come into a bigger club and for whatever reason, just don't quite seem to have the force or the strength of personality to do it at a bigger club. And I think Irola is someone who, he's not a sort of Jurgen Klopp figure who's very kind of forceful in his like public appearances and utterances. I think we'll find out a lot about him, basically. I think we'll find out, you know, does he have the kind of strength and the force of his ideas to actually kind of rest control of this season, which hasn't started brilliantly?

56:37or is he going to be, you know, one of those managers who is sort of, doesn't work out for him in this big job and then he'd probably go back to a sort of medium-sized club and be very, very good again. Yeah, it's really interesting talking of managers who've done well at medium-sized clubs and then had a big, big task on their hands. It doesn't come much bigger than Tottenham Hotspur for Roberto De Zerbi. We're seeing the stress and the strain showing after that 0-0 draw with Everton. They face Liverpool, of course, on Tuesday night in the League Cup, a League Cup third round game in September that's already got loads on it.

57:07Who saw that coming in modern football? But just very quickly on Tottenham, I wanted to talk about De Zerbe. You've all seen him, you've been in press conferences with him from his time at Brighton and things. Seeing him on the pitch after the game with Matthias Tell, gesticulating, talking about frustrations. There was quite a lot of nice guy De Zerbe, wasn't there, at the end of last season. Kind of abandoned some principles, was like, dear God, we just need to not get relegated. spent loads of money now we're seeing maybe some of that combustible character that we're expecting does he need my question is does he need to go back to the nice guy to get Tottenham off and running this season I just wonder whether combustible Deserby won't get what he wants out of this group of players that are so you know weighed down by this expectation and pressure yeah I think it's a different dynamic now with Deserby given you know you come into last season and it's you have one job and us to keep them in the Premier League, did it basically by building them up.

58:08When we interviewed him in Sydney on their pre-season tour, it was, I came into the dressing room after Sunderland and these guys were just dead. It was all about lifting people and getting them just to play with enough personality and character so they can get them over the line. And they just about did it. This season is a totally different picture. This is the season we see De Zerbi's football. And there are broader pictures about whether De Zerbi's football can work at this point. It's interesting, I thought, just reading what Tom Olnard had written today for the game and talking about De Zerbi saying you need to respect the amount of goals that Marmouche and Solanke have scored, which is right, because Solanke had one fantastic season with Bournemouth, but otherwise hasn't scored more than 10 in the Premier League.

58:50And Marmouche, we haven't seen proof that he can score a significant number of goals. But is that the approach, like you say, is that the right approach to try and get something out of these guys when you've sidelined Richarlison, not named in the Premier League squad. He was a top scorer last season, scored 11. Is that going to lift them? And maybe there is an element of trying to jab them into life. I mean, the first couple of thirds of their plays look good, but it looked good in pre-season as well. It was always when they got to the final third where the issues are. The last couple of seasons don't help.

59:24There's so much psychological noise and baggage with Tottenham. And the fact they haven't scored means there's something new that's just going to add to the mix. then you get the shots of the fans looking despairing at the stadium at full time and it's that's hard to stop that's that makes it difficult to do what you'd want to do on a technical tactical level with the players because then you're once again you're wrestling with with psychology yeah I don't think Deserby wants to be doing that again and as you say how is he gonna that's not the season he'd want that wasn't the idea that's not the idea of the big investment the big investment was to change direction we must wrap it up James final word from you on Deserby and Tottenham just for This is a very kind of unscientific point, but just from the outside, I find myself just, dare I say it, almost bored by Tottenham at this point, which is remarkable to say because...

1:00:14Bored by their play or by the whole story of Tottenham. I just think they're the one club who sort of, really ever since Poch left and Mourinho came in, they've sort of been reliably chaotic and entertaining in a chaotic way at the very least. Even if the football wasn't always entertaining, there was always a kind of something mad going on. It's funny because when De Zerbi came in, everyone was like, well, at least it won't be boring with De Zerbi. And it kind of is, isn't it? At the moment anyway. I mean, it doesn't help that they haven't scored in four games. but it just kind of feels a bit, you know, they had this, you know, I mean, I suppose it's not mad really by the context of, you know, what everyone else is doing, but kind of a mad summer transfer window.

1:01:04In Tottenham's context, definitely. And you just thought, wow, you know, they sort of, I felt really kind of interested to see what they would be this season. And I'm like four games in. I know it's early, I'd say that about everyone, but I'm just kind of like, it just feels a bit flat, doesn't it? Yeah, I'm sure there's probably a lot of other Tottenham fans out there going, as well at the end of this game and at the start of this season. We'll see whether they or Liverpool will get through in a very busy week of midweek action. We'll be back with the regular show to discuss all of it on Thursday and Gregor and I will be back with an EFL show on Tuesday as well.

1:01:37We'll see you for both of those very soon.

1:01:52This episode is powered by AT &T Business. In my early days, I did some of my best work in parked cars or coffee shops. But when I landed my first big contract, I realized I couldn't bet my future on a public connection that cuts out if someone turns on a blender. As a small business owner, you're already wearing at least 10 hats. You shouldn't have to be your own IT department as well. That's why I rely on AT &T Business. They keep your connectivity reliable so you have one less thing to worry about. powered by AT &T Business, built to work. Get AT &T Business at business.att.com. Pessimism. It's never going to improve a disconnected healthcare system.

1:02:32Next. So what will? At Optum, we're working every day to connect primary, specialty, and pharmacy care and help lower prescription costs. Will we fix it all overnight? No. But we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's healthy optimism. Learn more at Optum.com.