Who did the best transfer business?

0:28Hi, I'm Jack Cravici, Kramer host of The Best One Yet. hydration that goes wherever life takes you.

0:39Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the times where the transfer window has closed and I think and hope I speak for every manager, fan and journalist when I say thank God for that. More than three billion pounds spent by Premier League clubs, players going on strike and loads of moves between the 20 teams in the England's top flight. On today's show we'll discuss the end of the window and debate the rights and wrongs of the current behaviour by players and clubs alike. We'll also talk about the most impactful goalkeepers in the Premier League era as Edison leaves Manchester City and we'll check in with Jonathan Northcroft in the England camp as Thomas Tuchel prepares for big games against Andorra and Serbia in the coming days.

1:19I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual and team we're in a fancy new studio look at this yeah good illuminated in green looking resplendent both of you we had a bit of drama didn't we martin before we got started gregor wasn't happy with his chair proving once and for revealing my data i'm a diva tendencies proving once and for all that he footballers really are divas really really are divas anyway loads to talk about let's get stuck straight into it i mean we have to start with the saga of the summer don't we Martin Alexander Izak finally getting his move to Liverpool there's a lot been said about this and there's a lot to talk about but just in the lot the naked fact of Liverpool signing Alexander Izak Gregor and the team were talking about on Monday's show is this as significant for the title race and for Liverpool and for everything as many have made out look it should be it should be shouldn't it you know the only thing that could go wrong is that it upsets It's the balance in some way because of how well the TK has done.

2:27Yeah. But that's the only thing that could go wrong. I mean, throwing a goal score of Isak's quality into a team that is already the strongest attacking team in the country. And look, I wrote last week in the Sunday Times, Arsenal can't win this. I don't think they can win this from the back this season. they've got to be able to in some way take Liverpool on as an attacking force because there will be matches, as there were last season, that Liverpool get over the line when Arsenal don't. Which they've already kind of shown already this season. I was just about to say, and I was very pleased that it only took me less than one day to be proven completely right, because that was absolutely, not that I wanted Liverpool to win, just that you like to be proven right.

3:16So that was exactly what I was talking about. Liverpool had enough in that team somewhere to get over the line and Arsenal didn't. I couldn't understand when people were talking about, oh, this is Arsenal's game to lose. It never looked like that to me. They never looked like scoring. Whereas every single time Liverpool went forward, you thought there was a threat there and they didn't play particularly well. And so you put Isak into that team well, I don't see anyone stopping them. Do you think Arsenal have got it within their team at the minute? You're talking about the strength of Liverpool now being added to by Isak.

3:56Do you think Maduweke and signings like that, Jokeres, of course, looked quite good against Leeds at home, but as Gregor said a couple of weeks ago, it's pretty easy to look good against Leeds at home. Very much. Do you think they've got it in them to score those goals that you're talking about, to challenge Liverpool? I'm not sure they have. I'm not sure that they have. I was surprised he didn't start Eze but I'm just not sure they have and I think I think Chelsea might give them a run for their money but at the moment Chelsea have had a bit of luck in the first few games I think they've won two, drawn one but they've been quite fortunate fortunate very fortunate with the sort of travesty of the Fulham goal that was disallowed.

4:44Yeah, a stinker. And even in the first game, if it's given for a foul by Mark Guahy, we can all understand it. Suddenly they've produced a ball that was sitting there. So they've had a bit of luck, is what I mean with Chelsea. I think Liverpool's defence has got certain weaknesses, but I think the attack is so strong that you can get away with that. The only thing that's the biggest unknown is the chemistry. as much as saying you know Isak's only one player but they've already signed quite a few players this summer and big players probably with sizable eagles like the chemistry and how that changes in the team is an unknown we're forgetting there's Salah's still there as well everyone's going Eketika and Isak can they play together you're like he's not the player of the year Salah's tweet did you see Salah's tweet yeah I'm going to go back at the fan yeah like some Liverpool fan account was saying you know I think it was like the biggest upgrade in history yeah it was a picture of Wurtz and Isak with a picture of Diaz and then Nunes and he said oh is this the biggest upgrade in any summer and Salah said how about we show some respect to Premier League champions yeah absolutely so yeah like as I say that kind of chemistry and the way the dynamic and the team changes and it's the same with all these teams probably the biggest issue actually at Chelsea because it's always changing so you just never know one day it might go boom and then you get great chemistry and Chelsea has happened in the summer will fill the potential that we know there is there Arsenal I've signed a lot of players as well so that's the one thing that's unknown just coming back to have Arsenal got in them to score the goals that can I think they do the question is whether Michael Arteta kind of changes the framework of his team to give them the platform to really do that How do you think he changes it then?

6:33Do you think he changes the midfield or is it just attitude? What does he change do you think? I think it probably is attitude a bit. I mean, there is so much emphasis on Arsenal being outstanding defensively, and that's taken them a long way, and it's very important too. But I feel like they can shift that balance a little bit, tip the skills a little bit in the other direction. I know this has been a discussion for a while, and it was kind of brought up again after the defeat to Liverpool, which was one on very fine margins. But it's true. It's true. And it's true in the big games, but it's also true I think in sort of over the course of a season I think Arsenal can shift that balance a little bit Yeah Well no I was going to say and it does count when people say oh does it matter that Arteta has not won at Anfield Yeah yeah 13 games at the moment Yeah it does matter that sort of thing does matter it mattered with David Moyes David Moyes' record against the biggest teams was always brought up was always brought up whenever it was oh well he's never Eddie Howes was for a while as well wasn't he when he was at Bournemouth they always got smashed against the big team can't get over the line against this but you know there's a world of difference between not being able to get over the line at Bournemouth and even at Everton really because Everton aren't the size of the club that they once were it's at Arsenal this guy's at Arsenal I'm sure we'll be talking loads more about the title race and things and the implications of these transfers but just a quick word on Newcastle of course losing Alexander Izak of so many after so so long lots of different briefings, lots of suggestions.

8:09No, he's not for sale or maybe he is for sale and things like that. But they've ended up with Nick Walt Mardé, a striker from Stuttgart. Johan Visser as well, a forward. Jacob Ramsey as well has joined from Aston Villa. Anthony Alanga. Obviously they've lost, is that? A huge blow. But with those players coming in, I mean, how are they looking going into this season? They've had a difficult start. Do you think they're... They're looking like a second tier club. Really? They're looking like a second tier club, aren't they? So they've got Champions League, lots to be excited about but in trouble.

8:39They've got Barcelona coming up, fantastic. I was there the last time they played Barcelona I think it was the last time they played Barcelona the thrill I was there that night, it was absolutely fantastic great night for your computer to go down and you have to glad you're over it you have to ad-lib the match report on the copy and you can't hear them, they can't hear you fabulous night for all that to happen but it looks second tier if you know what I mean because they've lost they have lost a player that if you're talking about you know there's always this big argument about what constitutes world class and what constitutes you know Isaac the fact that they've lost the British record transfer fee now is quite obviously a different level to the guys that they've got in at the moment who knows you know in three or four years' time, he might be saying something completely different.

9:39But at the moment, it looks second tier. It looks as if there are these very big, powerful clubs that not so long ago wanted to leave everybody else behind. And for some reason, we've all now forgotten about that. And they do business at that level. And then Newcastle do their business at the second level, the level below that, even though they're a Champions League club, even though they finished a mile ahead of Tottenham and Manchester United last season. So you don't think they're now capable of challenging for a Champions League place, which is obviously what the trouble has been with Newcastle yo-yoing back and forth.

10:17Yeah, they're capable of it because there's lots of... Newcastle are a good team. We saw that against Liverpool the other day. They've still got that midfield. They've got a midfield that everyone would love. They've got a smashing back four. we'll see what they've got up front we've spoken about this so many times when the European games come around over the season the depth is the question but they're still starting the first choice 13 or 14 players are still capable of beating any team in the division on the day so undoubtedly I think if you look at their business in isolation it's been like all the players are probably like upgrades actually Alanga's a really good signing he's like one of the fastest players in the Premier League and that fits brilliantly with the transition football that Eddie Howe tries to wants his team to play and Whistler will be incredibly effective in an Eddie Howe team wouldn't he?

11:14You'd have thought you'd think I mean look I'm not saying it's you asked me about you asked me about the business and the business is second tier because the player they've lost is absolute and the players they went for and lost out on during the first two players that's what I was going to say that was the point I was going to come to was whether for Newcastle fans and for us within the media you know we're talking about narratives and things like that is there a part of it where and Martin Hardy touched on this piece touched on this in a piece sorry on the Times website where if Izzak had gone for 125 million to Liverpool in July and this had been then the business that they'd done and it kind of hadn't dragged on as long same business but in a different way we maybe would be talking about Newcastle in a different way or would you still be going, nah, still second to?

12:00I think part of the problem, as Gregor says there, is that there's been a number of strike one and strike two and strike three and eventually the guy arrives from Stuttgart and you're thinking... Who they've had to pay a lot of money for. Yeah, who they've had to pay a lot of money for in the end because it's getting near and near and near. And you're thinking, that wasn't exactly your first choice. We all know what their various choices were and two of them, certainly, already look as if they're doing outstandingly well for other clubs, Ekitike and Gio Pedro, are on fire at the moment. They made fantastic starts for Chelsea and Liverpool and that's where they were initially and this is where they are now and look, it could work.

12:51It could work. I hope it does work. the more competition the better but I just think that losing Isaac was and is huge for them undoubtedly so Newcastle fans if you've got views on your window and what next for Eddie Howes side get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk I've touched on this already but both of you have written on the subject of players striking and this nature that the transfer window has become as was the headline on your piece on Monday Martin the Wild West However, it was then followed with the words, here's how to fix it. Don't want players to strike, want clubs to get deals done in good time.

13:29It's easy. The threat of lengthy suspensions should help to resolve matters. That's the stone first. So you're telling me that players who go on strike should then be suspended. Explain to the listeners. It was just a thought that it was just a way of stopping it becoming a regular event. Because this summer, everyone who's threatened to go on strike has got their way. I know the point that Gregor is going to make, which is that it's a small sample. And that's absolutely true. But it's quite a high profile sample of players. And everyone who's threatened to go on strike has got their way. And you're thinking, right, well, how do you stop that?

14:15Anything you don't stop. Anything that's bad news and you don't stop it, you encourage it. so how do you stop that and it was just it is just a thought that if someone has withdrawn their labour for three matches then once the deal is done they shouldn't be able to play for three matches so that would then put the onus on the buying club to tell say to the player look you know keep it keep it straight basically you know don't do anything we don't want you suspended when you come to us, you know, you just carry on fulfilling your obligations. It's up to us. We'll sort it out. We'll sort this out.

14:52It's up to us to make the transfer work. It's up to you to make the transfer work. It's up to us to make the transfer work. That was a first thought. Yeah. And people say, oh, players will just pretend to be injured. Well, you can, there's a way of dealing with that as well, independent medical examinations and stuff like that. It sets the clock running. There's a way you call somebody and you go, right, Can we test this guy? This guy says he's got a knee injury. Can we just make sure that he's got a knee injury? If he's got a knee injury, the man's got a knee injury. It's as simple as that. Anyway, and the other thing was that you don't want to close the window before anyone else in Europe closes it because that leaves your clubs vulnerable.

15:32I've always thought that was a stupid idea. Yeah. So how do you try to protect your clubs from the situation that nearly happened with Mark Gwehi at Crystal Palace where it looked like he was going and couldn't get a replacement in and all of this sort of stuff. And so that's the other part of it that I was thinking is that to make clubs get their business done early, once the season has started you can do the transfer but you can't play until November 1st once the season has started you can do the transfer the window will still close on September 1st but then there's a two month period before that player can play I don't know whether it's the hangover that I've got being a football editor after this transfer window but I like it I'm here for it I think it's pretty radical but I like it I'm not saying it's perfect I'm sure there's flaws The three-game band thing.

16:31I think that's good fun. That would be really good. Liverpool ringing Izak up going, you get on that bench, son. Yeah, absolutely. Start playing. See, look, I'm not saying it's perfect. There's things that people say, oh, well, you couldn't do this because of this. You go, yeah, okay. I came up with that in about 24 hours before I wrote the comments. I thought, right, how do I fix this? 20 minutes, listeners, 20 minutes. Yeah, absolutely 20 minutes. It was, you know, it was, you know, it was conversations, conversations with my brother at one stage and you know how would you do what would you do what could you do what could you do with this and then he said all right so here's uh you know here's the first draft yeah and then we can yeah and then we refine it from there well subject on the idea of it being a first draft and martin has alluded to uh your piece that you've written gregor but your reaction first to martin's suggestion about you know the kind of that idea of mutual bands you If you've not played for your club before you're leaving, you then don't get to hit the ground.

17:29Only if you strike. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you strike. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, of course. Thoughts, Gregor? Yeah, it's quite radical. I think the independent medical advice could be a slippery slope for international football too. Maybe some clubs would be like, I'm not sure about that idea. Thomas Tuchel going, can you just check, actually? Yeah, exactly. He's texted me. He said he's not fancy. He doesn't fancy Andorra. Can you just check on the hamstring? I question them letting that happen. but yeah look clearly fundamentally no one wants to see these episodes no one wants to see maybe like a few kind of publications do like get a lot of content out of it but fundamentally no one wants to see these disputes and like I would I would think that the kind of market will probably fix it like clubs clubs are losing out at the very are kind of finding life difficult at the very top level and I don't think usually they let that stand for long.

18:24And I think probably the answer will be more kind of resolute and concrete buyout clauses in contracts in the future. It's already starting to become a big common feature of the game. I think that might be the solution. They have to have them in Spain, don't they? They have to have a buyout. But often the Spain ones are like three billion. Oh, yeah, yeah. For a 20-year-old. He's not going anywhere. Are you sure? What if he's crap? He'll give us Malta. Yeah, that's pointless. Clearly that's not a solution. Maybe it does need independence Which wouldn't be good Anyway there's no like My point I'm going to bring it in now but it's only fair I'll read the headline the same as I did with Martin Player power?

19:06Usually it's toxic clubs forcing someone out the door Howls of indignation over Alexander Izak And Jan Wiss's strike action are slightly misplaced Maybe football's pawns are Entitled to stand up for themselves At times Listeners there's a classic case of writers slagging the headline writers in the office. But Gregor, you're a bit more on the side of the players. You think there should be an element of sympathy for these players who go on strike? Yeah, OK, we'll start with that. Some people will win when I say this. I don't have... I have some sympathy with these guys. First of all, the first claim is they've signed a contract that's five years.

19:43He's got three years left. Why don't sign the contract? That's not Alexander Uzak's fault. He signed for£60 million for Newcastle. They're not giving him a two or three year deal. That's not his choice. That's the market forces again. Wissa had like one year plus another year. It's essentially two years. He doesn't have much choice either. And these are big moments in a player's career. And so my point is that overwhelmingly, players aren't given the choice like this. Sorry, they don't have the choice. They don't have agency over their careers. They're forced out of clubs. they're often made to do made to sort of train or train alone or with the bomb squad or with youth teams or like on a sort of individual schedule when everyone else has gone home they're told to come in all these things which actually are in breach of FIFA's regulations and probably UK employment law but clubs do it for the scores of players every summer and January this happens all the time so these guys are very few cases and when you have the power on the rare occasion when you do have the power to say I want to I want to make this move and you really want to push it through I don't blame them because most people never have this opportunity and what they also have which is really important to state is a willing buyer it's not like saying I want to leave like pay me up and I'm going to choose my choice take my choice of club or whatever and go where I want whatever they have a willing buyer ready to pay a British transfer record fee like it's obviously a step up Newcastle fans might not like to hear that it's a step up to the Premier League champions you might win the Champions League with them all these things like players strive for their entire lives and this is like a major juncture in his life he wants to if he's willing to act the bad boy for a summer oh like I kind of I kind of have some sympathy for it and also I think we need to sort of take a step back about the language it's used here about going on strike because yes they're withdrawing the labour like if you want to get into talking like we're unions and whatnot it's temporary Newcastle did not have to sell him they still have the power they still have the power to keep him because he has the contract that everyone bleaks about for three more years it might have been difficult, there might have been some conversations he might have said I'm never playing for the club again but if they kept him a few weeks down the line they'd be having another chat and he'd be going yeah I can't rot in the reserves or on my own or in Spain or wherever for another four or five months or a year or whatever.

22:19It's in no one's interest for that to happen. So it's a play. It's a power play. It's like these players say things that aren't actually true. How do the fans work into all of this as well? Because I think there's an element of part of the strike action thing is also to do with fans' perception. And these days, so much vitriol, isn't there? And it's not just in the 90 minutes in the ground. we all go into a stadium and tell someone they're a tosser and then think, oh, well, that was a bit embarrassing, wasn't it? But it continues, doesn't it, online all the time, fan accounts and all these things.

22:53Do you think that's part of the kind of this divide that happens so much between maybe your two opinions and people getting too... I don't think you... We're not that... You know, I don't think we're greatly divided. Well, I was actually going to say, I think both things are true. Both things can be true, honestly. I totally get Gregor's point about, you know, there's a lot more players that are putting, as it's now called the bomb squad and all of this, than there are players refusing to play. And the ones that are, are very, very high profile players. So it gets all of the headlines. But I think the way that some clubs have treated their players in this transfer window and other transfer windows is really poor.

23:39Is really, really poor. Any examples, any particular thoughts that come to mind? The way people are just discarded by Chelsea, the way that it is absolutely just moving, moving little, you know, the word Paul was used. I know Greg says he didn't necessarily use it. That's true in Chelsea's case. It wouldn't be, you know, I mean, the Leicester guy, the Leicester guy who's joined, they're going, oh, I'm so excited to, you know, I could get a chance in the Champions League. Buonanotte. Buonanotte, yeah. Buonanotte, I'm so excited. Chance in the Champions League, Brighton guys. Yeah, it was a loan of Leicester.

24:12Yeah, you're not alone at Leicester. So, you know, next thing you know, Champions League squad comes out, he's not even in it. Well, it's Herzl are saying as well, like, oh, we hope he'll get some game time. And I'm going, what? You've said from Brighton to Chelsea to get game time. Yeah. What? No, no, that is an important point as well, because, again, people keep talking about contracts and the value of a contract. A contract is no longer, like, I said in the piece, I might sound naive saying this, But a contract used to be an investment in a person and your team. It's not that anymore. It's an investment in an asset.

24:48So that completely devalues what a contract is worth, in my view. And, you know, Nicholas Jackson is another one I cited. And I realised a lot of people in the comments and whatnot said, look, he kind of didn't help himself. He was sent off a couple of ill-disciplined, yada, yada. Fair enough. He signed an eight-year deal two years ago. He developed He was young I think he was 22 at the time He's developed He's not been the star Chelsea really hoped and prayed for But last season he was their number one striker This summer Because he signed two players In Gio Pedro and Liam De Lappe He was told he could do one He was on the verge of joining Bayern Munich Liam De Lappe pulled his hammy He was about to sign on the dotted line No, no, you've got to come back to London If you're a player You've got to say that there's a part of you thinks a huge big part of you thinks this is my career I'm not just a pawn in your vast kind of spreadsheet stable of talent that's not me I want to I'm 24 I've got ambitions I'm going to sign for one of the biggest clubs in Europe I'm not coming back I want to play some bloody football for God's sake we're getting to talk about it in just a minute we've got because of the nature of modern football and this is a squad game and it's you know and people finish us now and all this nonsense.

26:09LAUGHTER You know, and we've got out of the idea that players play. Indeed. You know, that players play and that really you should want to play. If you're a player, I've always got a great deal of admiration for any player that wants to take a step down or wants to go sideways or whatever and just go, no, I want to play. Yeah, Gregor did it loads in his career. Yeah, well, absolutely. I'm sure he did. But Jack Grealish, for instance, I think is fantastic. The man's gone to Everton and he looks like a player again, which he always was. And he's buzzing as well. And he's absolutely buzzing. I mean, not enough that Thomas Tuchel doesn't pick some bloke that he worked with 10 years ago ahead of him.

26:54Yeah, we'll come on to England in the second hour. This is a fascinating conversation and I'm sure listeners... And we're going to end it here. No, no, no. But I want to try and use it to bring in some other players because there were interesting moves on deadline day and things, talking about bomb squads and things. Aston Villa picking up Harvey Elliott from Liverpool on loan, Jadon Sancho on loan, Victor Lindelof for free transfer. I would say Aston Villa's window, if we're talking about Newcastle's being slightly subpar, Aston Villa's is an absolute stinker, isn't it, in terms of being underwhelming after where they were.

27:24The loan thing, the loan thing, you know, is just, I really don't like it. I really, really don't like the amount of loans that there are at the moment. Why not? You've just said you like Greenwich, though. Yeah, I know. I don't like the fact it's a laugh. I've actually almost forgot that it was a loan because he's hit the ground running to such an extent. So what don't you like? What do I like about loans? Because it's all temporary. It's not about... You can't run a shop with somebody else's stock. It's also temporary. Everyone's passing through. Nothing's committed. you know so I wrote about loans the other day in the column and got a correspondence from the Premier League interestingly enough and they wanted to...

28:14Is this going to get us sued? No! No no no In the new studio and we'll have to give it all over Thanks for listening to the Game Football Podcast and they came on and they sent me something that said that the loans into the Premier League were 18 in 2022, 26, 23, 27 in 2024, 22 in 2025. And their point was it hasn't changed. And I sent back a message that said, yeah, but those loans previously used to be kids. It used to be the young players loaned out to get experience, et cetera, et cetera. and now it's Jadon Sancho and people like that are you talking about Harvey Elliott not going somewhere and being like this is my place now this is my place no no because that's actually that's a different conversation too in that as it's got there's an obligation to buy this is about PSR it's delaying when you're having to move money from one place to the next it's just an absolute it is a wild west but the point you're maybe hitting on it does apply with Villa doesn't it when you think about January and when they had Marcus Rashford, Asensio, and everyone's going, oh, they've got a brilliant strike force and then come the summer and you go, oh, they've got this crap.

29:35That's all they can do though because of the spend. Yeah, absolutely. And then they have to sell Jacob Ramsey. Yeah. To come play with it. It's terrible. Are they good signings regardless of what you think of loans and stuff? Harvey Elliott and Jadon Sancho, are they... They're good players. Are they good signings? I don't know if they're good signings. Yeah, I think in the position they're in and where they were coming towards the last few days of the window, absolutely they're good signings and he needed them. Harvey Elliott, certainly. I mean, Jadon Sancho's got a bit of catching up to do, hasn't he?

30:00To get himself back to where we thought he was. A little bit. I've no idea what Jadon Sancho's been doing for the last while in terms of talking about players who want to play football. Jadon Sancho, of course, leaving Manchester United. We touched on that phrase bomb squad that's being used so often as well. Manchester United also getting rid of Rasmus Hoyland on loan to Napoli and very, very excited for Rasmus Hoyland's Italian glow-up winning, being nominated for the Ballon d 'Or following the Scott McTominay route by the end of the season. Anthony as well leaving£19 million to Real Betis Alejandro Garnaccio on his way to Chelsea so United getting rid of those players that they wanted to get rid of It's interesting though with the United I don't know whether they're necessarily stronger though But it's interesting do you not think with United you used to go to United and it puts value on a player oh he went to Manchester United now he got to Manchester United it takes£50 million off your valuation Yeah well in terms of Anthony They sign you for£70 and they sell you at£20 Yeah I mean is anyone else slightly baffled by Manchester United letting Rasmus Hoyland go from the point of view that they talked so many times last season of when he was injured and they're, oh, we've not got a striker, we've got no one to lead the line.

31:02You're like, well, you're still in exactly the same position now. You've just got Benjamin Sesko instead and you've let Rasmus Hoyland go. They've still only got one striker as far as I can see. Unless you're counting Zerksy or Cunha and all these modern forwards. It's money again. It's moving the money around because I think there's an obligation to buy if they reach the Champions League. Obligation to buy. It's a real, I think, obligation to buy. a real problem. Not in terms of in some moral situation, but I think it's a problem for clubs because a loan that's converted to a permanent signing doesn't feel like a new signing.

31:41It doesn't give you that lift, that sort of fillet that a new signing does coming in because you've already seen him. And in some cases, not very good. You know, the one that I quote, it was Tadibo at West Ham, Jean-Claire Tadibo, and they had an obligation to buy of, I think it's 35 million. Well, West Ham supporters had already seen Tadibo and had already decided they weren't very good. And, you know, that's putting it mildly when I wrote that, to be fair. I had a couple of West Ham fans. I was very polite by your staff. Yeah, exactly. I had a couple of West Ham fans on there who thought I'd sort of underplayed that particular sentence.

32:28But they're committed to£35 million. So not only does it not feel like a new signing, it feels like you've just set a fight to£35 million quickly.

32:39So you're looking at it thinking, obligation to buy that, you know. Because even if he's had a great first season, say he's had a, like Jesse Lingard had at West Ham, I'm just keeping it with West Ham just as a comparison. even it had with Jesse Lingard if they'd have signed Jesse Lingard permanently it's still not like a new signing because you've already seen him you've already got him he was part of your team so it doesn't feel like anything has changed anything you know there's no sense of anticipation you're just happy you've now got this player permanently yeah you know Tell you look at Tell yeah he's not in the squad not in the Champions League squad now he was an obligation to buy in the summer yeah Gregor?

33:22This is all about I think just a kind of byproduct of a dysfunctional system we might disagree about the merits of profit and sustainability regulations but it's having a lot of after effects or different things popping up that no one could really predict particularly I think about having to sell off all your young players that's another thing so these are two things one thing is the loan like the transient nature of the loan system another thing is that players have clubs are having to sell off all their young talent both two things that are things that create a connection players who make a club a home and players who come through a system at a club are being trashed Elliot Anderson should if he makes his debut for England in the next few days or so he should be making that as a Newcastle player not as a Nottingham Forest player you know he had to be sold yeah and he's done very very well for Nottingham Forest there's loads of clubs we've not had time to discuss in the first part of the show so if you've got views or want to ask us some questions in time for next week get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk just before we take a quick break reminder again to vote for the game in the listeners choice category at the British Podcast Awards make sure that when Gregor goes down to the awards in his nice suit he's got an award to bring home with him you've got until September the 8th go up to the British Podcast Awards website it'll take you 30 seconds of your time.

34:49That's it. We're not paying for it. We're going to have to go for a quick break now, but it's time for a little quiz question because the kazoo has not made it into the studio. Well, this kazoo broke last week. I can bring it back if you want. Stopped by security. I'll bring it back next week. I'll get a new one. But thanks to Bill Edgar's weekly quiz that you can take part in on the Times website. This week is all about international, so a quiz question. Alexander Klebb, who obviously played for Arsenal and Birmingham City made 108 appearances for which nation? Find out after the break.

35:30Hi, I'm Jack Ravici, Kramer host of The Best One Yet. At T-Boy, we're always talking about small decisions that can have an outsized impact. One of the simplest is staying hydrated. Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in or heading into a busy day, I keep Liquid IV on hand. It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and helps support hydration when you need it most. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you.

36:09Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Martin Samuel, Gregor Robertson, and I'm delighted to say Johnny Northcroft's joining us too. Johnny, hello. Hello. How are you doing, boys? Yeah, very good, thank you. I can see you on a screen in our new studio. So, honestly, it's like you're sat next to Martin Samuel. Honestly, 2025. Modern technology. You can see he's exciting. Is that coming through? Yeah, he's absolutely buzzing. He's got his SJ Award in the background. He's absolutely loving it. And if you want to see this, listeners for real, check us out on YouTube.

36:41Now, before we crack on with the show, very importantly, Martin Samuel straight in with the answer to the quiz question, proving once and for all how much he loves a quiz. Alexander Klebb, 108 appearances for Belarus. And if you want to test yourself on more footballers and their nations, go to Bill Edgar's quiz on the Times website. Now, before we talk about England with Johnny, I thought that one of the more significant transfers, several transfers actually that happened was at Manchester City in their goalkeeping department. Edison leaving City to move to Fenerbahce for£12 million. City then brought in Gianluigi Donnarumma from Paris Saint-Germain for£26 million.

37:19He joins James Trafford as City's keepers. Johnny, I'll come to you first on this. I don't get it, I'll be honest. I don't understand it, really. I find if you want to move on Edison, if you think he's towards the end of his career, if there's a contract issue, you've then signed James Trafford, a young goalkeeper who looks a little bit under pressure in the Premier League, but he's quite good with his feet and you sign a bit of a behemoth in the form of Jan-Lurie, Donnarumma and now they're both going to peep for the number one spot. It seems a bit bonkers to me, Johnny. It does, it does. I mean, the whole Edison scenario has puzzled me over the last couple of years because this hasn't come out of the blue.

37:56We've had two seasons really, at least one season where Pep was starting to kind of move away from Edison without really explaining why. We saw Stefan Ortega playing more big games. I think Edison had a couple of injuries, but I can't, and I never have thought that this is about football purely, as in performance on the field. I think that it's more to do with Pep's demand for absolute buy-in and absolute loyalty from his players. And we just know with his history of letting people go that the minute you show that maybe you're not 1 million percent committed to his team his plan he he sort of goes right off you go then and and there seemed to be this all seemed to coincide with edison um starting to look at other options getting to that point in his career he's looking for his last big contract but i am i will admit i'm speculating a bit because this has never been explained to us yeah i just i just can't think that pep guardia has looked at edison's performance on the pitch and seen anything wrong with it because yes he's made a couple of errors but he always made errors but he still remained when he played last season just way better than everything they had and a unique distinctive goalkeeper that we know and then the other part of that is who they brought in as you referenced Tom to bring in both Donnarumma and James Trafford I mean I know Pep's trying to be flexible and change his style but it's like I mean it really is two ends of the spectrum and I mean that's the thing that slightly jars with me is Donna Rummer the number one now Marty?

39:41what do you say? poor James Trafford who could have moved to Newcastle thinks I'm going to go back to City I'm going to fight for this number one shirt get the number one shirt quite literally start the season and then Johnny's cast aside would you agree with the guys here that Donna Rummer comes in now as number one? 100 % I mean at that wage level that price and that scale of player. Of course, he's got to be number one. I'm not sure how... I mean, James Trafford's a lovely lad. I spoke to him at England recently. But I'm not sure how sorry I feel for him because he had a great option at Newcastle.

40:15And, you know, I know you've got to back yourself, but I think if he'd gone to Newcastle, we'd be really looking at him competing with Jordan Pickford for the England number one spot. And it appears that he's gone to City without fully knowing their plans, which it is on him and his representatives to try and suss that out. And of course, on a human level, I feel a bit sorry for him. But in football terms, I think he probably should have just gone to Newcastle. Martin, your thoughts on some of Johnny's points there about the City situation and James Trafford? Absolutely. Well, the other thing is, he didn't have a very good game against Tottenham.

40:55And I know that's a hell of an audition, you know two matches but the second game of that audition so to speak didn't go well for him and you do wonder whether after the problems that they had last season there was a degree of panic for want of a better word with City where they just went like well we can't we can't have this for the you know suppose and that continues we can't have this for the season we can't just leave ourselves with no option other than James Trafford. And then there's the opportunity to get Donnarumma, who had a fabulous season last year, and they've taken it. So again, I can totally see why they've done it.

41:43And when people say, oh yeah, but he's not a Pep Guardiola goalkeeper, he doesn't use his feet the way that... No, he doesn't. No, that's what Luis Enrique... that's why he's not the number one at PSG. But, you know, Erling Haaland wasn't anyone's idea of a Pep Guardiola centre-forward, and they seem to do all right with him. So he is capable of changing. Is this, do you think, Johnny, is this part of maybe City shifting to a post-Pep era as well, of just getting their stall in place maybe? You know, and again, that's big speculation, but the three of you have all talked about it, this idea that Pep Guardiola won't be here forever.

42:23yeah yeah I mean Pep Guardiola and his his sort of coach aren't doing the recruitment anymore it's Hugo Viana who comes from a different tradition and part of the business so maybe there's a bit of that maybe it's Pep's trying to shift to a post Pep era yeah we've seen that on the pitch so far I mean you could say that someone like Reinders isn't really a classic Pep player but he's a very good player in a different sort of more transition style so I think it's part of an attempt by Pep to evolve towards maybe a more direct style of football and he's not hopeless with his feet I mean he was able to hold his own in that PSG team but he is more traditional and if they do want to go direct a bit more he gives them that capability Did you say he's 26 million?

43:19yeah well coming back to what we've just been discussing that's quite a good price for an asset which is what a lot of footballers of feud has nowadays they picked up James Trafford for cheaper than anyone else because of the buyback clause that they had which came off the price and they picked up the goalkeeper who won the Champions League last season for£26 million like when you pan out a bit and look at it take away the kind of tactical element of it that's good business yeah just over£50 million for the both of them yes you think of some of the games that Don Orme had for PSG last season, the one against Liverpool, Anfield in particular and stuff.

43:54Who wouldn't want that? I mean, okay, you might lose a little bit in the passing, but who wouldn't want a goalkeeper that can do that? You know, everyone's looking for goalkeepers with presence and everything. Donny Woonman's got presence. Yeah, stature and experience as well and Donny at the very top. Let's come back to Edison then because I want to talk about impact that goalkeepers have had and he's certainly right up there. Seven assists in his time at City by far and away than most of any goalkeeper. I mean, he did change the landscape of goalkeeping a little bit, didn't he? I mean, Pep did it as well.

44:25And of course, Claudio Bravo was there just for a season before Edison came in. But Johnny, Edison, as much as we're talking about him playing well, he was the fulcrum, he was the starting point for everything City did. Johnny? Yeah, he was. He showed us, you know, I think a kind of boldness, maybe beyond what we'd seen from goalkeepers before. The thing that struck me is distribution is incredible, as shown by the stats, especially that long kick that you can land on a sixpence. But even more than that, it was always Edison's sheer almost kamikaze bravery to go so far outside of his box at times.

45:06When he comes for a ball, he would come for it 100%. And that led to maybe a couple of times he might have been sent off. But really that proactive style, uber proactive style of goalkeeping, whether distributing or whether kind of helping a team maintain a high line by being, you know, quite so aggressive, a sweeper keeper. and I look at David Raya and Arteta is obviously Pep's disciple I mean he seems to be the goalkeeper most he's not as aggressive you don't see those kind of mental moments where he's just flying through an attacker to try and get the ball but you do see the kind of proactivity and aggression in coming a long way out at times and he seems to me to be a sort of one of the many goalkeepers that Edison inspired.

45:59Martin, your thoughts on that idea, the impact Edison had on the Premier League? I might have told this story. I was with Brendan Rodgers before they played City. It's the night that Vincent Kompany scores the goal from nowhere or whatever. They're not going to win. They wouldn't have won the title. It was the Liverpool season, the one where they were like neck and neck all the way. And company scores with about five or six minutes to go against Leicester from nowhere, from about 30, 35 yards out. And I was with Brendan before the game, staying at the same hotel, and we had a cup of coffee, and he said then that he thought Edison was the best passer.

46:50He said what he was going to do with Leicester that night, which was to drop and not to press the defence at all because what they want you to do, he said, is they want you to try to press the defence. He said the best passer in their defence is the goalkeeper. He's better than any of the back four. He said and then he clicks it over into midfield and he can actually hit an accurate pass and then you're outnumbered because you've gone too high. He said, so we're going to say back, let him have the ball, let him have no options other than to give it to the defence and they'll give it to us. Their passing won't be good enough, they'll give it to us.

47:35And for 85 minutes and until Vincent Kompany hits a shot that he's never going to hit again if he lives to be 200, it actually worked. And that was the effect that Edison had. He was the best passer in that Man City defence. The conundrum he gave teams, you know, opponents is unique really. Because it's also the way he could do it without a run-up. The ball could be at his feet and just like with one short backlifting leg, no like, the ball's at his feet, he can ping it like an arrow over the top. So as Martin said, you can press, but you've always got to be completely so aware of that ball over the top.

48:14but he can also you've never seen a goalkeeper wrap a ball like into midfield not just a little clips like zings like absolutely wrap it into midfield I'm still very sad they didn't let him take penalties I still think they should have let him take penalties I think that would have been a wonderful thing coming back to the impact point I remember doing a piece maybe last season or the season before where I spoke to loads of academy coaches in the Premier League goalkeeping coaches and he was the name that always came up about this was about the idea that actually now and this is the truth there are players even up to the age of 14 who are in Premier League academies who are outfield players who are being converted to goalkeepers and you know they'll say we just see something maybe there's a centre half and you think he's maybe not going to make you know cut the mustard as a centre half let's try him in goals because they know because he has that natural movement already as goalkeepers now have or have to have and the person they always referenced was Ederson like he completely changed the idea of what a goalkeeper and obviously it was Pep's idea as well but in the Premier League he was the one who changed the idea of what goalkeepers need to be capable of yeah Manuel Neuer generally before him as well but it was those two guys I remember Pat Nevin and this possibly before Ederson's time saying to Pat Nevin when it was just becoming popular just becoming this fascial idea that the goalkeeper should be you know the 11th outfield player as such.

49:46And I said, you've seen anyone that you think could make it as an outfield player? And he said Manuel Neuer. Really? Yeah. That was the one that he said. Manuel Neuer could have played outfield. We're talking about impact then. Other goalkeepers in the Premier League era that you think have had a big impact on the game or on the league? Johnny, any ones that come to mind? There's obviously loads of big names down the years. Yeah, maybe it's predictable, but I can't look past Peter Schmeichel. I did go through Peter's book for him and there's maybe a slight element of personal bias but actually when we're thinking of goalkeepers who have defined their trade I still think Peter is the biggest reference point maybe since Gordon Banks or Yashin and I think someone like Edison actually is in the Peter tradition and interest and I've talked to him many times about goalkeeping and his favourite goalkeeper of the modern era is Edison.

50:42And Peter always said to me, my question for any team signing a goalkeeper, the first question is, well, what football do you want to play? Because just like any other position on the pitch, you choose your goalkeeper according to your football. Now, that seems obvious now because of Pep Guardiola, but it wasn't obvious back in the early 90s when Peter was playing. and his distribution in a different way was incredible. Martin, I remember, well, those throws that used to boomerang to either Kanchelskis or Giggs or Lee Sharp or whatever. Used to get it over the halfway line, basically, didn't he?

51:21Yeah, yeah. He played handball a lot as a kid and just had this incredible sort of ability with his hands to land the ball. But also, like Edison, as I was saying, there was that element of being aggressive, being a very proactive goalkeeper, being front foot. Again, the way he used to clear out a box. Yeah. Always screaming at Bruce and Pallister or whatever to get out. His starfish save. That comes from handball as well, doesn't it, John? Completely. Yeah, exactly. In fact... No, go on, Mark. No, I was going to say, because you've got no chance. Yeah. That's why it comes from... Because you've got absolutely...

52:01So imagine how accurate good footballers are with their feet. If you think if you could actually just throw the ball, you'd never miss. So the goalkeeper in handball has got no chance whatsoever. So all you can do, I would hope John will back this, all you can do is make yourself big. That's the only chance you've got. I thought you were going to do a big starfish. No, no, no. We're not going to do it. Get it on YouTube. new studio up before we start but but the um that's all you can do is make yourself big it's this like emergency anyway no no you make yeah exactly you make yourself big and and you have to try and in a split second put the attacker off yeah you get loom in their face yeah you can't come out of your box um he also played a lot of indoor football which is big in scandinavia yeah um small-sided indoor gym hall games which again very similar distribution the goalkeeper's an integral part of the distribution.

53:02Peter scored 13 goals in his career, by the way. That goalkeeper up from the back thing as well, that was really exciting whenever that happened. Absolutely. Peter Schmeichel, a great shout. Absolutely great shout. Any others anywhere in the studio? Because I do want to get Johnny very quickly on England, but any other shouts for impactful goalkeepers? Very quickly. Very quickly, I would say David De Gea at Manchester United because he wasn't there for a particularly fruitful time for Manchester United but he stopped it being a lot worse than it could have been and he solved a problem that they had after Peter Schmeichel left they couldn't find a goalkeeper Van der Sar sorry Van der Sar sorry Van der Sar Van der Sar but that was the end of his career wasn't he yeah they solved problems I've got a shout out Gabel Karai for making jogging bottoms normal I'd say that's a pretty big impact and Fabian Barthez normalising short sleeves as well as goalkeepers you know big sartorial impacts Gregor very quickly this might sound weird but Joe Hart because he couldn't do the thing that now everyone has to do like he's unfortunately he's the guy who everyone thinks about now as the guy who was like completely thrown in the scrap heap and like underlined that he was the past so Joe Hart for a reason he didn't like the wrong kind of impact he's brilliant on match of the day yeah he's very good I think he's absolutely superb just before just before we finish we have to wrap up very quickly with England Johnny you've been in the England camp two matches for Thomas Tuchel in the World Cup qualifiers against Andorra on Saturday evening before a trip to Serbia.

54:34I mean, Andorra should win at home, you'd hope. Should win? Should, you'd hope, you'd have thought. Mate, we could have a swinger here. I mean, the four of us here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an idea. There's an idea. Tony and Tony in another room. I think we're younger than some of their players as well. No, I mean, I wrote about this this morning. start till Serbia on Tuesday night because we've just had a diet of these in terms of the qualifiers you know smaller teams low block, low ambition low intensity games and it's going to be another one on Saturday I think against the team that England will be playing for the 8th time in 20 years you know many more times than they've played France or Argentina or Holland or whatever in that time so Andorra it's going to be quite a hard sell I would say we'll do our best in the paper but to get people up for for Andorra again if they throw Martin on that I'd get everyone involved I think because it would have to turn up last 10 minutes last 10 minutes but then the Serbia game is this is the big game you know this I've listened to you three talk about this is the only test this is the only test you're going to get before the World Cup really of any significance in terms of qualifiers in terms of competitive yeah competitive games you know you can arrange friendlies against top sides, but Martin, you're going to be out there as well with Johnny for the Serbia game.

56:01This is the big test, isn't it? And as much as you're joking about we can walk past Andorri, we need a performance and a result against Serbia, don't we? Serbia are not, we're not playing Brazil here, we're playing Serbia. You know, it will be, it's a difficult place to go to because those you know, once you go east you can walk into some very difficult games that might not look as if they're particularly difficult. You know, when whatever team England put out you'll look at our team you'll look at Serbia's team and you'll think well we should win this we should get a result here but those games are difficult I can remember being in Azerbaijan and we won 1-0 and Sven was ecstatic about it and picked Jermaine Genas for like two years on the back of the fact that he played instead of David Beckham that night because it was just tricky it was blowing a gow and it was quite a hostile atmosphere and stuff like that.

56:58Yeah, Johnny, just very quickly, final word from you. Any players that you're particularly looking forward to and think they've got a chance to, you know, nail down a place in the squad going forward? Yeah, look, Tuchel's saying this is the start, this is going to be the England we want and he's talked a lot about intensity and pace and trying to be more English. We haven't seen it so far, but I think he's going to look for it from the wide areas. I think Jed Spence is in the team, is in the squad to get a chance in one of these two games because he's looking for that kind of pace on the flank.

57:27And that's why Marcus Rashford is back. He sets a lot of store on him. I think it's actually, what is as interesting as anything is the players that aren't there. This dilemma of Palmer, Bellingham, Foden, well, none of them are in the squad for injury and Foden's not ready. And I think what would be really telling is if England actually play better and look more cohesive without these guys because that again throws more light on what we do with these players going forward. Another other name, sorry, just to throw in is, well, two names, obviously. Anderson, that vacancy's open at number six. And Eze, who Tuchel loves to bits.

58:12And I just wonder if this is his moment, his chance to stake a claim because he's a bit more, I think he's a bit more flexible and team-orientated than the other number 10s I've mentioned. Yeah, some interesting talking points, which I'm sure we will pick up next week. We'll have to leave it there. Martin Samuel, Johnny Northcroft and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. As I say, we'll be back next week to dissect those England games. We'll see you then.

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