Who is best placed to challenge Arsenal in the future?

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1:03Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Well, thank goodness for Port Vale, eh? The struggling League One side stunned Sunderland on a weekend of FA Cup action, which saw many of the big teams reach the quarterfinals, including Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester City. On today's show, we'll look at those three teams in detail as they prepare for the Champions League action. ask who is best placed to succeed in the next 18 months, ask will there be any managerial change in the summer and pick a composite 11-2. We'll also discuss the rest of the FA Cup action and Tottenham's defeat against Crystal Palace last Thursday and plenty more as well.

1:38I'm Tom Clark and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter and Times columnist James Geerbrandt and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson. It's here as usual. James, nice to see you back in the studio with us. Hi, yeah, good to be back. Excellent, excellent. bringing in the big guns towards the end of the season. A fantastic weekend of football, wasn't it, Gregor? Good fun. Sure was. Should we have a little whiz round of FA Cup games, pick out some moments, pick out maybe our games of the weekend? Because I think there's a lot of contenders.

2:05Alison, I think you're making a strong case for Wrexham Chelsea. I am. How on earth did you know I was going to say that? It's almost like we discussed it before we started recording. Yeah. No, it was fun, which is what you want from the FA Cup. Absolutely, yeah. But what I think I like most about it was because, you know, broadcasters get obsessed about Ryan Reynolds and the Hollywood angle. Yes. But actually it transcended that and they weren't important at all. I didn't need the camera to pan to Ryan Reynolds. And they did it anyway. Yeah, they did it anyway. I didn't need it because on the pitch it was a reminder that it doesn't matter who your owner, well, it doesn't matter who your owner is, but it doesn't matter once the kickoff starts because Wrexham have a very intelligent, well-organised team And it's just so easy to think that they're in a false position for some reason because of the glamour associated with them.

2:58But Phil Parkinson's doing an amazing job. And I felt tactically he got it right. And the Emerson did not. I have no idea why he played five at the back, for example. That seemed a bit odd. But then all the tropes of underdog football came into play, which is you think, ah, you know, if it goes to extra time, usually the lower division team suffers because they don't have the fitness regime that the Premier League clubs and sure enough when they're down to 10 men you think well this is just not it's not going to happen and it didn't happen but you the fight and effort they put in I just thought it was just it was just the perfect cup tie because it really really felt like you can step up if you're the underdog.

3:47It's, you know, and show off your team. I thought that was wonderful. And Chelsea sort of slowly coagulated into the Premier League team that they are. And you were reminded that João Pedro's turning into their buy of the season. So it was fascinating. But I was also left thinking there was an ethical issue. And the ethical issue was, I don't think they should have VAR for teams that don't normally have VAR. That seems to me unfair. Now, you could argue, well, that's not fair on the Premier League team. They're used to playing with VAR, so they should have VAR. But if the FA Cup means anything, you want there to be romance and upsets.

4:30So, tip it slightly in favour of the team that doesn't normally play with VAR. It felt very incongruous for a team that don't normally have to wait for an offside decision to be overturned. or a yellow card to be overturned. You could almost tell in the way they celebrated what they thought was 3-3, but they're not used to the idea that this could be pulled back. Honestly, this isn't necessarily an anti-VAR, although it's not about whether we like or dislike VAR, and I think we all dislike it. It's not about that. It's about the moral compass of that. I don't think it's fair. Yeah, no, I would agree with you on that as well.

5:05I mean, speaking of VAR, there is another world, Gregor, in which this game would have been 3-3 at one point with 11v11 as well. Dobson red card, former defender. I mean, it wasn't for me. It's a championship yellow card all day of the week, but this is maybe Alison's point about you bring Premier League standards into this competition because Chelsea are there and you've got Mark Kukurea acting like an absolute tosser trying to get him sent out. Sorry, he was. I want bad things to happen to Mark Kukurea for the rest of the season. I want an embarrassing home goal. I want him to get, you know, sent off in a similar manner.

5:36I thought that was absolutely shocking and embarrassing for him to be straight in a player's face like that. when he's trying to hack him down for a yellow card isn't he that's exactly what he's going for yeah and it wasn't like you know he didn't plant his studs on his knee it was like a sort of knee to knee contact it was high it was very late it was intentional but having said all those things I agree I think it was just in the yellow card category so yeah there was that and as you say the VAR moment that I don't know there were just so many what might have been moments I thought in this game for Wrexham if you think about even after they'd gone 2-1 ahead Dobson's attempt to shield the ball and then he slipped.

6:13Rex were pretty good at seeing games out. I know Chelsea would have turned up the heat, but that gifted them the opportunity to equalise. And then the VAR moment. And then Lewis O 'Brien's chance right at the death. He's got a wand of a left foot. That ball sat there and you thought, this is a goal. And everyone, he saw Parkinson's face. It was like, wow, everyone thought that was a goal. So yeah, there's never, you know, 4-2 put a gloss in it and I think Garnaccio said afterwards it's one of the hardest games of the season so great credit to Wrexham absolutely I would say as well for Wrexham can you sort out those goals because for that Garnaccio goal when it bounced straight out I mean that was really upsetting it should hit the net the net should ripple and we should all be like oh that's quite clear you shouldn't have the manager on the sideline Liam Rossini it's a goal it's a goal right yeah it's definitely a goal that went in the goal so yeah other than that Wrexham a brilliant performance and they'll be hoping to continue that form into the championship playoffs I'm sure me and Gregor on the EFL Extra Show very soon.

7:10James, you're coming in quite upset at a Premier League team for their performance in the FA Cup this weekend. Your game of the weekend is Fulham losing to Southampton? Thematically, if not for pure excitement. Yeah, that's fine. That's what we're all about. Yeah, it does feel like such a missed opportunity for Fulham. If you're Fulham, what's the best thing that could possibly happen to Fulham? it's to win a trophy right it's to win realistically probably the FA Cup or the League Cup which is not impossible and you would think that what happened last season with Palace winning the FA Cup is just a bit of a you know should serve as a bit of a shot in the arm or a kind of a reminder that actually this can happen particularly once you get to the quarterfinal stage and you know Fulham are a good team and they're in a situation in the Premier League where, you know, they're safe.

8:10So they've got a bit of a... 10th on 40 points already. They've got a bit of a luxury in early March, which, you know, they might not always be in that position in seasons to come. I just, you know, to make the number of changes that Marco Silva did make, I just, I felt frustrated by it. But you can understand why other teams did. when you've got the Champions League, there's an issue of scheduling as well. They've got big games in the Champions League. A lot of these teams have made nine changes or whatever. But Fulham, there's no reason. Yeah, seven changes, I think, wasn't it? Alison, you praise Marco Silva a lot on this podcast, and quite rightly so, but this was bad Marco, wasn't it?

8:52Yes. Bad Marco. Bad Marco. Because he's deprived us of a good potential narrative, as James is saying. We could have had another Crystal Palace, which we all loved last season. Fulham could have been 12th again, who gives us stuff, we've won the NFL. cafe cup they could have been them i think i think okay i would say i don't blame him for making the rotations he made no at the start at the start but when once he realized how how the game was unfolding which was southampton were very dangerous on the break almost like southampton were in the premier league pretty recently and i've got a really good team in the championship he should have he should have thought this isn't we're not containing this we're not in control of this and you know Iwobi made a huge difference when he came on for example but it was too little too late I mean he could have rejigged much earlier on having accepted he'd made a miscalculation that's the part that I find odd there was almost there was an obstinacy there that no this is the way I was going to do it and this is how we got here so far by making changes and we're going to carry on doing that I mean Southampton were more than good value for the win as well they could have scored more they could have won this 3-0 quite comfortably so congratulations to Southampton proving Marco Silva wrong for making his changes Gregor your match of the round I mean Wrexham was the cup tie of the round but the match of the round for me was Newcastle Man City it was you know sometimes these games when you pick two Premier League teams against each other they can be a bit underwhelming particularly when there are changes but this was nothing like that the brilliant well bizarre goal by Savino goal of the weekend for me absolutely fantastic so weird just stand there he did it on purpose right we're all having that I don't know I think he definitely did he definitely did he just stood there otherwise he's got quite kind of delayed reactions yeah he's a bit slow I'm calling it he did it on purpose goal of the weekend he got Marmouche threatening he often threatens to be like a truly like elite level centre forward so athletic great you know great goalie second in particular and then Pep just I don't know I've never seen it I don't think I've ever seen him that animated he obviously we've seen him animated before but my god he was enraged by quite a sort of innocuous moment when Doku was trying to wriggle through and might have been fouled by Trippier but it wasn't there was no way you know conducive to that sort of reaction throwing off his jacket and getting a booking which means he's got a two-match ban yeah he was he kind of thrust the spotlight on himself from a performance that was I think he said was the best that this team had ever had at St James's Park so he was both like really bristling with pride for his team's performance after the disappointment against Nottingham Forest but also like I don't know we seem to be talking about Pep's demeanour for the whole season because we don't know like does this fight show that he's actually maybe he's going to stay on for another season or does this fight show that he's kind of desperate to make this last season of his you know some silverware to show for it I have no idea but he's certainly fighting yeah well we're going to come back to Pep Guardiola and some big picture questions around Manchester City very shortly.

12:03I'd say Sean Longstaff as well, another contender for goal of the weekend with the touch and volley on the spin in Leeds' good win against Norwich. Good to see them continuing their Premier League form into the next round as well. You will not be surprised to hear me pick out two League One sides for my performances of the weekend. Mansfield, a very, very solid and good performance against a much-changed Arsenal. We should say on some Arsenal changes here, some Bill Edgar. Great facts from him in his column that's on the website. Now, when Arsenal's Marley Salmon headed a clearance in the first minute against Mansfield Town, he became the youngest starting player to touch the ball in an FA Cup tie in the fifth round or later since the Second World War.

12:38But just six seconds later, he lost that distinction to his teammate Max Dowman. At 16 years and 190 days, Salmon was the youngest in this regard since Wolves is Jimmy Mullen in March 1939. Dowman at 16 years, 66 days, then beat Salmon. both of them are the first pair aged 16 or younger to start together for a top flight club in any competition since May 1967 when Chelsea's Ian Hamilton and Kingsley Wiffen did so in a league game against Leicester City honestly Bill O 'Gear where do you some man honestly man but a good win for Arsenal Mansfield made it very very hard for them I really enjoyed when they scored their goal Gregor and the camera panned to Nigel Clough on the touchline not as glamorous as Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively but just as important for modern football.

13:24Yeah, just laughing. Just going, we're 1-1 all against Arsenal. This is quite fun and fun. It definitely was. But Port Vale, Gregor, we've talked about them on the EFL Extra Show. They have been having listeners. If you don't listen to the EFL Extra Show, you really should because it's great fun. But they've been having a stinker of a season. Absolutely awful at the bottom of League One. And they're in the FA Cup quarterfinals. Absolutely remarkable. There's a good stat that sums this up. Port Vale have now won more games in the two major domestic cup competitions this season. seven, two in the League Cup and five in the FA Cup than they have in their 32 league fixtures where they've only managed to win six games.

13:59That sums it up. They're a cup team, Gregor. They're delivering. Yeah. Although, yeah, I mean, it's still remarkable considering the 11 points from safety in League One. And also the fact that they had to play 120 minutes in midweek against Bristol City in a delayed FA Cup round to reach this round. Yes, absolutely. So, extraordinary, yeah. and moment of the of the weekend was the the attempted back pass by Luke and Iron which like I've never seen anything like it it could have been you know could have been one of the great own goals it could have been yeah like own goal of the season decade century and instead it was like goalkeeper weird goalkeeper clearance come on if you were a defender you'd be like wow you've bailed me out there absolutely but also it's a great header also part of you thinking why risk that and not just go with your hand and take the foul.

14:53I think it was pretty brief. That was superb. Absolutely loved it. It was hilarious. A brilliant header by Elborg. And congratulations. But the keeper laughed afterwards. Yeah. And then got told off by Karen Carney in the... Oh, no. On the pitch side commentary. Oh, really? For not taking the game seriously. Oh, we've all got to have a laugh. Come on. We're all having a laugh. Nigel Clough's having a laugh. Elborg's having a laugh. And Liverpool might be having a laugh in this competition. Into the next round. Bit ropey, that link, but we'll let me. Into the next round. Andy Robertson, Gregor, we could have had another goal of the round contender here.

15:23Doesn't hit them like that very often, does he? Also made me think of the idea that he might have gone to Tottenham in January at one point, obviously with that potential transfer. Stayed where he was, setting up goals. So let's use Liverpool being into the next round as a way. I wanted to broaden it out and talk about those three teams that we mentioned. Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester City. We've talked so much about Arsenal on recent shows and their kind of dominance at the top of the table. They'll be going into their game against Bayer Leverkusen again, competing on four fronts for four trophies.

15:50this season. But Liverpool, Chelsea, City are kind of in that pack lurking behind them. And yes, Manchester United fans, you're in there too, but you're not in the FA Cup, so that's that. The link doesn't really work. Looking at those teams, who do we think are best placed for the next couple of months towards the end of the season, but then into next season as well? Because Gregor, you touched on it there with City and Pep. There's actually quite a lot of questions hanging over all three teams here. Liverpool with Arna Slott, Pep Guardiola. all clubs have made lots of changes in signings Liam Rossignor still feels like a temporary appointment to me as much as I'm enjoying his presence on the touchline and his demeanour and his vibes as I mentioned on the latest show who would you look at right now and go their best place to challenge Arsenal not just for the next three months but for the next 18 months maybe who do you think?

16:39City for me yeah I just think a lot of their signings are starting to bed in and look like they're going to be good players for City and the thing that I've mentioned for most of the season is just they're not the kind of winning machine of old they don't have the same bank of experiences they don't have the same aura and like I don't know presence but actually what happens between now and the end of the season is quite important I think for that that could that could develop if they win things together if they win you know win the FA Cup if they win if they go far in the Champions League if they show that they're not far off that will kind of I don't know imbue a bit of sort of confidence and belief in them because as I said there's not you look at their team and Rodri although Rodri's a bit diminished this season as well Ruben Diaz is not you know always guaranteed to be a starter now Phil Foden's not like most of the team Bernardo Silva's really the only player who has been part of this whole Manchester City journey and he'll be leaving at the end of the season as well so yeah so like obviously Erling Haaland has been more recently yeah but so it's a new team and as I say I think what happens between now and the end of the season.

17:50The biggest thing is Pep's future. Clearly, that's something that we can only talk about really when it happens. But for this team, this kind of developing team, I think the next few months are really important. Anyone got a case for Chelsea or Liverpool against Manchester City there? I think you could make a case for Liverpool. Of course you could make a case. Liverpool are really strange this season. They're not... I mean, they could very, very easily qualify for the Champions League. But it's like the whole world cannot get its head around the fact that at the start of the season they were predicting that Liverpool would retain the title.

18:25And the fact they so definitely, I mean, it's not even close, is it? They're so definitely not in that conversation that it feels like even when Liverpool win, it still feels like there's something not quite clicking. there have been very few performances where I have watched Liverpool and felt very comfortable watching them it's always felt like well they're going to I know they're going to concede yeah they're going to concede you just feel like they're over reliant on a few individuals Dominic Sabozlai is the outstanding one that isn't the sign of a team in a good place you want something a bit more cohesive and together and it's just it just feels like a team out of kilter to me and so there's not momentum there that I feel like there is some momentum at Chelsea actually interesting and there's a lot of momentum Manchester City in fact you could probably chart Manchester City's progress this season from the way that Gregor's talked about them because you've you've been unsure about them as a collective but as they've become more cohesive through games on game you've become more and more flattering of them it's as though you can see them like a group of kids growing up in front of your eyes you think an overhaul is never an easy thing and a lot of players are signed and you think Kusinov, James wrote a piece at the start of the season about how much of a leap that was for him on an individual basis and for Man City and you see him really growing now as a player and realising that he's able to perform on the stage.

20:11And that's happening with a few players. I think Cherokee, I love Cherokee. I think he could be brilliant. He's going to be a bit more disciplined. Did you see that video during the rounds the other week of him doing the warm-ups? Absolutely, glass. Have a look at that. Put it in the air. Pure football joy. James? I mean, for me, it's City. I have quite a telling stat. Yes, we love telling stats. Open play assists this season. So Liverpool have 24. Chelsea have 27. City have 41. Wow. I just think they're just a level ahead. And I think for me, as much as obviously, yes, of course, set pieces are a big part of the game, but I still think the ability to create chances from open play is in many ways the most kind of fundamental ingredient for a team that has aspirations to win the title because it's the hardest thing to do, really.

21:06and I just think City are a level above in their ability to do that and as Gregor said I think they've nailed it really in their last few signings you know Donnarumma, Gay, Semenyo, Cherki just all look like really good signings to me Rinders as well Rinders, O 'Reilly not a signing obviously but someone who's come into the squad and looks absolutely quality and they also sort of took the heat off the January signings which we were slightly more uncertain about there were a few more that were like ready made you go into the team now and others are gradually finding their feet So coming back to Chelsea then because we're not quite making the case for Chelsea you mentioned that you could make the case for Chelsea are they always just going to be that bit behind those two in terms of if we're talking about challenging Arsenal in the next 18 months Well they're behind them now but it's possible I think it's possible their deficiencies are experience I think it's not a very well balanced first team there's too many youngsters and when they need changes off the bench I'm not talking about the FA Cup I'm talking in league games or you're playing your strongest team from the start when you need to make changes you look at Chelsea's bench and you only see an average age of 20 19 or 20 and you think that's not that's not what this game needs this game needs an old head some maturity Kovacic for example you know they need that and they don't have it.

22:37And so that's holding them, that is literally holding them back this season, I feel. If they had a bit of a mix of outstanding and potential youth and experience, they would be in a much better place. But if you fast forward it a year to 18 months, presumably the plan is that these players have learned, you know, we're just watching them expand, their brains expand, they will become more experienced. players like Rhys James will be at his experience peak for example that I feel like if there's going to if there's a project that has any sense to it at all and I think they've gone too far it's too extreme but may just maybe in 18 months time we will see the players that are just a tiny bit flaky because they're young I've got so much experience under their belt and I've been played more than they would other teams and other clubs would play them that they all blossom at the same time and it could it could be beautiful i'm not saying it will be i think there's potential there yeah i mean that's that's the whole gamble of the chelsea project really that's the kind of existential gamble i i still look at i still look at chelsea's forward options so you know the the players they've got for let's say the front three positions the center forward and two wide positions si joar pedro looks like a really you know really really good yeah but you've got Charles Pedro Pedro Neto Esteval Gittins De Lapp maybe I'm missing someone you probably are because there's so many of them but for me that group as a group right now feels a step behind what City and Liverpool have for me but I guess the whole the whole point really is that what if they you know you can imagine that you know Esteval in you know two more years and yeah even DeLapp I guess maybe with two more years as well I don't know I'm not quite convinced as you can probably tell but it could I think the Chelsea project could face another challenge which is how long are some of these guys going to hang around when they're to be playing for a project team like how long does Colbam want to continue playing for a project team that seems to always undermine the project undermines itself I don't know I think there are a few players that would be the case and there's also a case it's been reported recently even like there's some players they have a wage structure and the players who get into prime years who think well I'm well behind my peers here because of our wage structure that's another flaw of the project eventually you're going to have to pay the same sort of money as your rivals to keep your best players so like yeah I think I have very little faith that Chelsea will find sort of room for any for like pragmatism like if you look at the signings that Man City have made like they wouldn't sign a Semenyo who's like a ready made they're not signing ready made players in the Premier League very very rarely like Kaissado but they're not going to go and spend another £100 and what was it £15 million on a signing the only player is Tosin that they brought like that's one complete outlier in their whole transfer policy really who was like and unfortunately he's illustrating the wiseness of their approach by not being very good yeah but then bringing some of you talked on some themes there about ready-made players and I obviously did use the fact that they're all stealing the FA Cup for this but just to bring in Manchester United and Aston Villa because if you look at the Premier League table we've got this kind of big six up there now if we're Aston Villa supplanted Tottenham as the kind of new traditional big six.

26:26Manchester United and Villa, are we putting them in the same bracket as Chelsea when you talk about some of those players? Because talking of signing ready-made players, one of the best signings of a ready-made player this season has to be Manchester United signing Brian Mbumo, surely, in terms of going, this will make us directly better. And Matthias Cunha, I had doubts about him around the Christmas period, but again, two brilliant signings immediately improve them. Do you look at Manchester United? Aston Villa have fallen away a little bit in terms of their brilliance at the start of the season?

26:56Are they in the Chelsea bracket? Are they in the Liverpool bracket? I assume we don't think they're in the Manchester City bracket in terms of being right up there for the next 18 months. Do they both still need some big signings that they might not be able to make because of FFP? I don't think there's that much between all those teams you're mentioning. There's Arsenal and City going close with them and then that bunch of teams there's not much. For various reasons. Man United obviously made a big uptick and they've shown that if you kind of try and get the best out of the players at your disposal, then you'll see an improvement.

27:30But there's still huge question marks about who's going to be their manager and filling a few holes in the team still. Aston Villa, their biggest challenge is being able to spend the money that will make them able to compete on so many fronts as you have to do nowadays. And Chelsea, as I've already said, I think they'll continue to undermine their own project. So for various reasons, I think there's not that much between all of us. And Liverpool, as Alison already outlined, they don't look like a cohesive team at the moment. Even when they've threatened to, they've just fallen back into sort of shipping crazy goals that they never used to.

28:12And there's a whole style of questions. So there's big questions at all of those teams. Absolutely. And one of the big questions is around the managers. We've danced around it, but I wanted to ask, specifically obviously not Unai Emery it would be shocking if Aston Villa decided to do anything about him but you've got Arna Slott at Liverpool some despite his brilliance last season with Xabi Alonso lurking in the shadows people questioning that Pep Guardiola we've no idea what the future holds for him Liam Rossini still feels temporary Michael Carrick is temporary I don't think Rossini feels temporary you think he'll be there in the summer so the question was going to be Slott Rossini, Pep and let's bring Carrick into it as well how many of them will be the managers of those clubs at the start of next season?

28:56A classic Tom Clarke impossible question. Resenior will. Resenior will. I don't think Pep will. I think Slott will. Do you? And Michael Carrick there's every chance because I don't know if you trust Man United to actually put together a proposal for someone that's the right person or even to be brave enough to do it. I hope Liam Resenior will but I have my doubts depending on how the rest of the season goes in terms of trophies I would say Slott won't I think Carrick will I think Pep will have one more tune Alison? I don't think Slott will be there I was explaining it to someone I was explaining it to someone as Slott was the perfect man to take over from Klopp but he's not the perfect man to lead a post-Slot champion title winning team but it'd be extraordinary if Liverpool like this club that has kind of tried to do things differently for so long spend 400 odd million quid one summer and then sack the manager there's riders to that isn't it, they won't sack him if he wins say he wins the FA Cup and qualifies for the Champions League he's not going to be sacked but if it's ultimately a disappointing season and Xabi Alonso is actually holding out for the Liverpool job which we don't know it's rumoured then I think I just think the team needs a reset and the cheapest way of resetting is to change the manager and not change the players which you've splurged more cash than anyone expected Liverpool to ever do so so it just feels like a it's harsh, I agree, it's really harsh but there's something that feeling you get when you watch Liverpool is one of they're just slightly clinging on a bit and Slott is slightly clinging on to coping and the things he says about, he moans all the time about opposition tactics.

30:54Which a lot of people have come round to his way of thinking and he's not the only one. Fabian Herzl was doing it last week. That's not the only one. Yeah, but people were having to go, Fabian Herzl being a poor loser. That's the first thing you say. Well, you know, look at yourself. Don't look at the opposition. And that's exactly what you should do. It's not, you can't blame the opposition if they beat you. It's ridiculous. so I just think there's a lot of reasonably subtle things going on Liverpool but the overall picture is when you watch them you think this is a club that needs a reset and the reset comes from the management James I bet you've missed my impossible questions on this podcast what do you think about those kind of four managers with some question marks up in there so let's take Manchester United first for me I just I just don't see any reason to change Michael Carrick like I mean look maybe he's maybe he's the long term answer maybe he's not but like but right now it's working and i just think with the united there's like i think with majesty united in particular there's like there's a messiah fatigue isn't there like ever since fergie left there's been this they've tried so many times to nail it to get the guy who's going to be the next fergie and it's going to be there for 10 years and it just they've tried so many different things they've tried your like you know your established super coaches your marinos you've tried your sort of more kind of you know sort of philosophy led managers like van Gaal you've tried your sort of I mean I guess you know Solskjaer and Carrot you kind of say it you know two sides of the same coin but you know you've tried your sort of club legend club legend as well and I just think yeah like I think appointing managers as much as we give clubs like United stick when they get it wrong I think is genuinely really hard it's really hard there are so few absolute slam dunk sure things out there and I just think if it's working with Carrick right now like why yeah maybe he's not going to be there in like three seasons time but like just you know ride it while it's working I think there are sort of parameters of what would be a success have changed dramatically in the last decades now it's like just get us back in that Champions League certainty yeah they want to compete for the title but like they've fallen so far that if he offers that then it's fairly compelling sort of case I think to become Man United manager.

33:16And as to the others I think the presence of Alonso on the market as it were I think is really interesting because for me you know whatever happened at Real Madrid Alonso is still a coach of like his I mean maybe CV is the wrong word because he doesn't you know he doesn't have a huge number and you know huge kind of amount of body of work but what he did at Leverkusen so impressive yeah so impressive and when you combine that with just who he is his you know his charisma the kind of respect he commands for me he's still he's still an absolutely top tier real deal you know kind of managerial but you don't you don't get many of those real blue chip, you know, managers on the market.

34:07It doesn't come around that often. So I think it's, you know, his presence is, I'm not sure whether, you know, I'm going to slightly sit on the fence. I don't know whether Liverpool should, you know, if he was, you know, if they got a kind of vibe that he was, you know, amenable, should they? It was really harsh on Arnazla. We can't be going to City, can we? Well, I was going to say, that's what you could see, couldn't you? It's a duty. Pep decides actually, you know, I am going to walk away here. I'm going to leave it. and City nip in with Nick Mark Gay and Jabby Alonso oh god this would be unromantic that way could you imagine the upset anyway well before the show I brought in Manchester United and Aston Villa but I thought we could end with picking a composite team of Chelsea Manchester City and Liverpool if you want to throw in some United or Villa players in there as well but I've got that wasn't the brief I'm just I'm just giving you I'm just giving you the space I'm just giving you the space to throw in Bruno Fernandes if you'd like to.

35:03No, you can't. We don't want that space. OK. We don't want that space. I reject that space. I wrote his name down and then crossed it out very heavily thinking, oh, I forgot. I forgot it's not Manchester United. This is honestly the only time they've ever listened to anything I've ever said to listeners and viewers. So yes, let's pick a composite team of Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester City. Gregor, I'm going to go with you first. Donnarumma. Yeah. Based on this season. We also will say if we agree and then we don't have to. Yeah, yeah. Good idea. What's the formation? oh well it's 4-2-3-1 what's his round 4-2-3-1 Donnarumma anyone not got Donnarumma in goal no I've got him I've got Donnarumma Donnarumma all round Rhys James right back yep Rhys James right back yes Virgil van Dijk oh this is upsetting I got him yeah we're all the same no van Dijk come on James Mark Gahey yeah all got Mark Gahey oh it's Diaz Diaz yeah okay oh cool I'm really torn left back but I'm gonna go Cucurella yes Cucurella I know Tom hates him but he is he oh my god he's such a presence he's such a presence no he's a tofter Nico O 'Reilly Nico O 'Reilly for me Nico O 'Reilly for me it was Mark Cucurella until the Wrexing game and now it's O 'Reilly so I had James Gay and Cucurella in my back four and I had Guardiol as well so I had Cucurella at that back nice Guardiol slightly shifting Gay across to like right centre back which I wasn't totally happy with but yeah for me Gordiel is I think we'll probably veer off here because I've gone Caicedo and Sabozlai so are yeah okay we've not veered off I've got both of those players but I'm playing in a slightly different formation I'm a 4-1-4-1 formation but go on hipster yeah I'll go I'll go Cherokee on the right yeah no yes Cole Palmer number 10 yeah Semenu on the left okay I've got I've slightly veered there so I've my three behind the striker is Cherki Wurtz Eketike lovely Wurtz and Eketike side by side Wurtz makes your team an anguished Liverpool fan cries out I mean he's coming good Alison yeah but that's not how you make the team of the conversation Jim did a lot of reporting on that Leverkusen season as well let's be honest yeah no I think that's fair I think it's for me that's more on yeah maybe the player I feel he could be than like it's not that's not that's not this is not sort of team of the season based on his performance that's fair that's what we asked for who would I want to have composite teams shoehorned Ketuki on the left so you can get Haaland up front that's what he's done and have you got Haaland up front it's a tricky game I've got Haaland up front that's me you've got to put him in I think but I had I put Sabozlai in with playing with Caicedo and Bernardo Silva and then I had Eketike and Semenyo behind Haaland Solid Solid I've gone chaos reigns I've just got Caicedo in the base of midfield he's got to do all the work because in front of him I've got Parma Cherky Sir Bosley and Doku with Eketike up front no Haaland I don't want Haaland I want chaos I just want five players to the Tom Clark team beautiful beautiful chaos well listeners if you want to send in your composite teams only for Chelsea Manchester City and Liverpool because those were the parameters I should say then do get in touch with me tom.clark at the times.co.uk we're going to take a little break now I've got a little question courtesy of Bill Edgar's column which I've already mentioned Manchester City have had a decent run of 11 wins in their past 15 games how many of their 37 goals have come from Erling Haaland find out after the break

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41:01Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got James Gearbrandt, Gregor Robertson and Alison Rudd. Few weeks after being very upset that I incorrectly said that producer Neil had got the right answer to the quiz question, storming in with the correct answer. How many goals have come from Ireland in City's last 37? Three. Just three. And that is why he's not in the composite 11 when we're picking our teams because actually Hugo Echitico would be a far better fit. But anyway, that was in part one of the show. Just before we carry on and talk about English football and there's lots still to discuss with Tottenham's current struggles, Gregor, I wanted to ask for your thoughts on the old firm game yesterday.

41:38And I mean, ugly is the word that could be used and has been used in lots of the reporting around this game, both in terms of the football and the spectacle that we saw afterwards. This is a real shame, isn't it? That this is Scottish football making the headlines in a year when the title race is so thrilling and the national team have qualified for the World Cup in the summer. This is a real sad moment for Scottish football. Yeah, I mean, we don't talk about Scottish football all that often on this podcast, but it's the front, you know, there's images of it on the pull-out of the game today in the newspaper.

42:09It's pretty extreme. You're seeing scenes that you would expect, well, might expect to see in like South America or, you know, Eastern Europe in the past. It's like ultras with masks on the pitch and flares on the pitch and stuff like that and you're right Hearts could be throwing the biggest spanner in the works for like half a century in the title race there's a lot of interesting stuff Tony Bloom's involved at Hearts there's a lot of interesting stuff going on in Scotland and this is just really really sad because this is the first time in eight years that either side was in Celtic were granted a full allocation of seven and a half thousand away fans so there's been years and years where no away fans were allowed not that they weren't allowed it's that neither club would allocate the other side any away fans and it completely trashed the spectacle like Martin O 'Neill spoke about this afterwards as a spectacle that part of this the allure of this game and the stature of it let's be honest it's one of the biggest Arby's in the world is seeing the kind of clash of colours a bit of the animosity without it spilling over into this so you're just left to feel afterwards that you know was this an enormous mistake if so you had to police it better than this.

43:34It just reminds you of that thing of you can't have anything nice we told you and they've kind of proved everyone wrong and the authorities wrong and the clubs wrong prove them right sorry for the last couple of years when they've not allowed this to happen Well I think it was actually more a kind of tip for tap between the clubs it wasn't like it wasn't like you know you're not allowed to play any fans in away grounds because of this threat it was like it was more of a dispute between the clubs so but even then when they were giving away fans it was really like often sometimes in the hundreds but this is what my entire childhood was growing up watching these games and you would see the full away end behind one goal of Celtic fans and like that and then if I went to Parkhead they would be given a full corner and it was like honestly everyone has to experience this game in their lifetime in lost football because it's like the atmosphere is thick it's incredible but when this happens then as you say it ruins it for everyone and there's probably more anger in Glasgow than there has been than usual because of what's been going on in the field and hearts this season and there's a chance that both teams will end the season with no silverware both of them for the first time since 1955 like there's a lot gone wrong at both of these clubs but what we saw at the end was just completely unacceptable and you know some Celtic fans stormed the turnstiles beforehand to try and get into the stadium like if you're gonna allow it what we all want is to have away fans at the game to make the spectacle better for everyone you've got to place it better Yeah, absolutely.

45:17We'll see what the repercussions are for both clubs. Michael Grant and Mark Palmer will be reporting on it on the Times website. We should say it's not just Scottish football with some chaotic scenes this weekend. 23 players sent off after a mass brawl in Brazil. It was remarkable stuff. Jose Mourinho sent off after celebrating a goal and then complaining about being called a traitor. And Gregor, I assume you were on board with a bit of anarchy in Germany after a mass fan unplugged the VAR. Absolutely. Fully supportive. Was it you? No comment. No comment. anyway let's get back to the Premier League because we had a Thursday night game and often these can be missed but we're not going to miss this one sorry Tottenham fans defeated against Crystal Palace at home we've had a few listeners get in touch Chris who often messages about Tottenham matters said Tom I emailed you on February the 18th I called it early Lincoln v Spurs a championship fixture next season his words not mine and then that's your way of getting Lincoln in there it was his words as a listener getting in touch it's nothing to do with me I'm just reading out what a listener said.

46:15And then Sunder, who got in touch over the weekend as well. He's got some questions which are a good way to structure the conversation around Tottenham. He said, Tom, I fear Spurs are sleepwalking into the championship. The players do not look as if they see the risk of relegation as real and the manager doesn't appear able to shake them into action. And his first question is, will Igor Tudor remain as manager? And should he? He thinks he should go immediately. Anyone? Hear, hear. What a disastrous appointment. Absolutely ridiculous. how many more games does he get before we come to that decision I obviously suggested this last Monday that maybe we might head towards this situation I think they'll be looking there'll be contingencies in place surely because they've got the Champions League game in there is Liverpool Liverpool yeah they've got Atletico tie with Liverpool in the middle and then they've got Nottingham Forest just before the international break yeah if nothing changes before then absolutely no doubt but it is extraordinary that you're like hearing you know voices you respect in the media and elsewhere suggesting like bring back Harry Redknapp like Clive Allen still like associated with the club Tim Sherwood no I think that's too far Ledley King's there you know like Harry Redknapp's 79 years old like with no idea about the competence of any of these people anymore it's like you can't just rely on vibes there's already too many people in the dugouts in Premier League football in Premier League clubs who shouldn't be there Spurs just appointed one don't do it again like that would be the most calamitous calamitous scenes Steve and Arraben standing in the dugout in the best stadium in Europe watching them fall into the championship imagine it but that is what the reason it's come to that is that they obviously had what they thought was a great appointment a man who had done really well in the Premier League in Thomas Frank that didn't work they decided to make the change so they go for the firefighter which is literally Igor Tudor's CV that is literally what he's done at many clubs in Italy so this is you know James mentioned it about Manchester United earlier.

48:13You go for different characteristics of manager. That's why people like Harry Redknapp. Vibes is what they're completely lacking at Tottenham. And some confidence. The players are clearly completely shot to bits. I don't know. I just feel like... Where do they go then? Where do they go? Do they actually try for a big appointment? Hire someone on a four-year contract? They've backed themselves into a really tricky position, haven't they? Ridiculous. I mean, maybe what they actually need, and I actually don't see why this isn't possible, but they should get Pochettino back on a part-time basis. He's preparing the USA for the home world cup, Alison.

48:53We have had a whole podcast about how little international managers actually do. So he could, quite conceivably, just... And then take them down? And then what, leave them back from the championship? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's not coming back. Because what they need after this ridiculous Igor Tudor appointment, where he's clearly just written to shreds, and that's been his philosophy, is go in, tell them, come on, come on, you can do better than this, and they haven't responded to it. And the public castigation of them has been ludicrous. That's not how you stay up, is it? so you need someone who cares for the club and I think Pochettino still does and is renowned for being avuncular and for getting the best out of players with the soft touch, not the hard words so I think that's, I mean, it's not going to happen I'm not saying it's going to happen but I'd absolutely no reason why it shouldn't happen I mean, I don't think you should ever go back and I think the Poch gap has been so big now and the team he had, look at the team he had he had such a good team of players But also, the situation you outlined could happen in the summer if they finish 17th again and just about stay up.

50:00That situation could happen if Pochettino comes back after USA's World Cup. But they might not get there. There's a situation in which they get thumped by Atletico Madrid, lose to Liverpool, and they're heading into a Nottingham Forest game going, we absolutely have to win this game. And there's the bloke in the dugout, thinks we're crap and keeps lagging off the players every press conference. The problem is, Gregor just said, Like, you know, you can't, you know, you can't sort of put too much store in vibes. But I think this is such a vibes problem for me. Like the whole, a huge part of Tottenham's problem is they don't have anything resembling home advantage, even though they play in like the best state.

50:42They actually have the worst home record or like second worst this season, worst if you stretch it back to start of January 2025, because it's such a kind of there's such a mood of you know it's just the the the whole mood at the stadium has completely collapsed and the i think the whole problem with the igor tudor appointment which would probably have been a perfectly fine appointment for a lot of clubs in this position is that it just it's sent to a fan like you're i think you're desperately in need of just injecting some kind of like excitement positivity and it just sent to the fans a kind of vibe of this is a relegation battle, which of course it is, but which we sort of have to like, you know, manage our way through, if you see what I mean.

51:33Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's really, I mean, that's why managerial appointments are really difficult, but I think they got this one really wrong in hindsight. Yeah. So just to be clear, Are we all thinking that if they lose to Atletico Madrid in the first leg and then lose to Liverpool, would you genuinely make a change then? Before the second leg, give them the second leg, whoever the manager would be, give them a week before a Nottingham Forest game? Do you wait for the second leg? Do you wait until the international break? They might have lost... I mean, Tottenham fans keep talking about their form.

52:05You don't wait to the Forest game, because the Forest game's a big one. Yeah. And you'd need some sign before that there was going to be any chance. I mean, clearly he's pushed back against all of this, this sort of narrative, this perception that we've been discussing about him being like, you know, the schoolmasterly sort of, you know, really big disciplinarian sort of, I don't know, gruff. You know. He says that's not the case behind closed doors, so like he's not going to be all black and white, but that's been the perception that everyone's taken on board within a couple of weeks. It's extraordinary.

52:41and that's his fault everything he said but even when he was trying to put people like us right and saying we've got that wrong but he still said the wrong things he said they're on a boat and people don't want to be on my boat and get off my boat that's not that's not bringing the team together yeah he also spoke about cuddles and arms around the shoulders and stuff he did his best it doesn't help that you know he's kind of speaking kind of big gruff Croatian accent in broken English but it's his fault he could have he could have approached this entirely entirely differently and being not just being like the vibes guy we keep saying vibes but being positive talking them up reminding them like these are good players they won the Europa League last season may have been doing that behind closed doors but he had to do he had to he had the sort of PR exercise was really important in this appointment hugely important and it was completely decimated as I said like he'll set fire to it within a few days.

53:42Yeah, absolutely. Well, Tottenham against Atletico is one of several massive games in the last 16 of the Champions League on Tuesday and Wednesday. Any other fixtures that are really catching our eye that we're really excited about? Oh yeah, I mean Galatasaray v Liverpool. Everyone went, oh, Liverpool got an easy draw. Well, actually Galatasaray beat Liverpool back in September. And so it's really fascinating, this one, I think, because you had Wolves beating Liverpool and then three days later slot goes back and he gets it right so you're thinking okay is this gonna be six months not three days but can he go back and learn from that experience where it was only one nil but Liverpool were outplayed yeah and it's a very difficult place to go I think that's fascinating to see what happens there because having already beaten them Galatasaray I think will be thinking yeah we're going through yeah PSG Chelsea for me I'm fascinated to see which version of PSG turns up whether it'll be the kind of one that's playing in first gear the whole time and it'll still be enough to beat Chelsea.

54:39Part of me wonders whether Chelsea might surprise them. I don't know. Am I being completely naive? Yes. Over two legs, I think it might be too much for them, but I think they'll give them a good game and PSG haven't been freewheeling in the Champions League so far. I'm really looking forward to seeing St James' Park and Newcastle welcome Barcelona. Of the first leg ties, that's the one that really appeals to me because it's going to be rocking and one of Newcastle's biggest games for decades. Absolutely. James? I agree. Newcastle with Barcelona for me. Yeah, we should give a mention as well to Bodo Glimt at home against Sporting as well.

55:16We're all Team Bodo on the game podcast. Sorry, Sporting fans, Bayer Leverkusen, Arsenal as well. And Real Madrid Manchester City, we've seen that fixture so many times that four football journalists have sat around a table and gone, peh, bothered mate. So yeah, there you go, Ray. I'll turn it on for us and make sure that we're discussing it at length on Thursday's show, but we'll leave it there for now. James Gearbrand, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. As I say, we'll be back on Thursday. We'll see you then.

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