Who is next for Man Utd? Plus mid week match reviews

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Honestly, who would be a manager, eh? Days after Ruben Amorim was sacked, interim boss Darren Fletcher watches Manchester United draw 2-2 at relegation threat and Burnley Will Oli Gunnar Solskjaer make a remarkable return to Old Trafford? Elsewhere, incoming Chelsea manager Liam Rossigno watches from the stands as his new side lose 2-1 at Fulham Nuno Espirito Santo's job at West Ham gets even harder and the pressure grows on Thomas Frank as Tottenham lose 3-2 in the last minute at Bournemouth bad time to be pictured holding an Arsenal Cup.

0:38Honestly, football is gone, isn't it? We should just pack it up. Anyway, on today's show, we'll also discuss the title race as Manchester City draw again. A thriller at St James' Park, red card chaos at Everton and Brentford winning the battle of the upstarts to go fifth. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today, we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the football correspondent for the Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft and the former footballer Gregor Robertson is here as usual. Johnny, I remember the last time you were on the show, end of 2025 we asked for our wishes for 2026 and you said can everyone just calm down a bit well they didn't listen did they Johnny not a bit no the football world is like my own house no one listens to me we've all lost the plot there is so much to cram into this show but we have to start I think with the latest at Manchester United a 2-2 draw as I say at Burnley last night but far more significance off the pitch we have a headline on the Times website currently as we record this on Thursday morning with a piece from Paul Hurst and Matt Lawton.

1:36Manchester United speak to Oli Gunnar Solskjaer over the interim role. Michael Carrick and Darren Fletcher also being considered. Another former Old Trafford favourite, Rude van der Strijd, is thought to be out of the running. So Martin, what a week it's been for Manchester United, as I say, off the pitch with that draw at Burnley as well, kind of summing up things for where they are. Your reaction to the last couple of days at Manchester United? Well, if Oli Gunnar Solskjaer is the answer, what the hell is the question? I mean, we've seen Ole Gunnar Solskjaer as Manchester United manager. It didn't quite work.

2:11It didn't really work. And just because they've managed to find a way that it could get worse doesn't really mean that you go back to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and go, well, it wasn't quite as bad as this when he was in charge. Because, you know, look, mate, it's the worst fun club in the country. It really is. It's got every advantage. It really, really should be, if not the champions every year, because no one's going to be that, but it should be in contention. I mean, Alex Ferguson, when you look at Alex Ferguson, once he got into the Premier League, once the Premier League was formed, Manchester United were never out of the top three at the end of the season.

2:52They never finished lower than third. That is where Manchester United should be. That's not some false... I mean, it was brilliant on the part of Alex, but it's not some false representation of what Manchester United are. That is exactly what that size of a club and that money should get you if it is run in any way sensibly. If it's run astutely, Manchester United should never fail to qualify for the Champions League. They're like Bayern Munich or Real Madrid. They should never fail to qualify. Now that it's four in or five in, how the hell are Manchester United ever out of the Champions League?

3:29So this one for you with Ruben Amarim and the situation now has firmly put the spotlight on Ineos, Jim Ratcliffe, Jason Wilcox, rather than managerial issues or anything like that. And, of course, the fellows in America who have done, depending on which way you look at it, either a genius job because they've managed to go, oh, this term, you know, we'll just take the money and you can just take all the blame, or they're doing the same job that they've always done, which is not quite the job that you would have wished for. Yeah. I'd say it's genius. In many ways, it's the most remarkable sleight of hand.

4:00That's where we've got to with Manchester United, the Glazers are geniuses. But it's the most remarkable sleight of hand, isn't it? It's like, oh, yeah. But, yeah, so, and that's nothing against Oli. He seems a perfectly reasonable bloke. But I've seen Gary Neville last night, and he's saying, well, Oli really cares about the club. and you think, well, yeah, but you can get someone off the Stretford end who really cares about the club. That's not the point about caring about the club, for God's sake. And all it does is wind you back into those years, the glory years, and all of that stuff that they've got to find a way forward from.

4:43Yeah, we're dangerously close to mentioning DNA already on this episode of The Game Podcast. Let's bring in our Ole Gunnar Solskjaer fan club president from a couple of years ago, Johnny Northcroft. I think that is only a fair way of introducing you, Johnny. When I saw these reports about Ole Gunnar coming back, I remember great, you know, riffs between you and I over Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's position at Manchester United. Listen, he did well at times, but as Martin says, do you go back? Do you ever go back? Give us your thoughts on the United situation. Let's remember the kind of articles of that fan club, which was that Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is probably, in my view, the best manager United have had since Fergie.

5:19I said that at the time. It's probably still the case. and it's quite a low bar isn't it it's not making a huge claim for any success that he had because he didn't but he was a figure who understood what the club was DNA I'll mention it who did pretty simple things but did Manchester United-ish things played with pace played with wingers tried to attack tried to use the academy kept it simple now he ran his course and the fact that they're going back or looking at going back to him or another type like Holly as in a former player just shows this has been a catastrophic failure of imagination from Ineos from the start from the board to back Ten Hag to keep him despite wanting to sack him to then stake everything on this big, massive punt on an unproven, and I say unproven in the Premier League, young manager with football beliefs that didn't fit with the traditions of the club or the squad.

6:34We were here a couple of months ago when Jim Ratcliffe did the podcast with Times Business, where he talked about journalists having knee-jerk reactions, where he talked about backing Ruben Amirim the way that Arsenal backed Mikel Arteta over six years. He specifically said, you know, where I am with this is that let's judge Ruben after three years. And I think we all expressed a little bit of scepticism about how true those were. I mean, I'm sure he believed them when he said them, but how much he'd stick to them. And here we are. I mean, this has all come about because there's been no clear vision for what Manchester United should look like.

7:18Despite Jim being a Man United fan, despite all the fanfare when they came in, they haven't established a vision for what it should look like properly on the pitch. They haven't recruited players according to that vision. They haven't recruited managers according to that vision. And they're looking now at getting in an old Fergie protégé to remind everyone what Manchester United should be. They should know that themselves. but it does say a lot about the club that in the 13 years or 13 seasons since Fergie left they've already had five ex-Fergie players as interims they've done it five times and they're now looking at a sixth person there this tells you everything about this club that's trapped between the past and not knowing where they need to be in the future it's Leeds United It's Leeds United after the Revy era.

8:13If you look at how many Don Revy players Leeds United brought in at various times to try to recapture that essence of what Leeds were. And it didn't work and it was not necessarily the fault of those guys at all. Yeah, I mean, the story is when Darren Fletcher took over and the first thing he did was call Alex and ask his permission. Ask his permission for what? You know, what? Oh, can I manage Manchester United, Alex? Knock yourself out, son. I mean, you know, well, why do I care? You know, it's sort of, why is he asking, why does he have to ask Alex Ferguson's permission? It's also, for want of a better phrase, small and provincial.

9:00And Manchester United, you know, act like a small provincial club sometimes when actually they're this global monster, but they're stuck in this all of our yesterdays. And look, I brought Alex Ferguson up earlier in the conversation, but that was only to show what he made, that club. He made them a club that routinely, even in what would be called a bad year, was top three. Champions League. Just very quickly on the subject of interims, because obviously they made this decision, having said, as Johnny quite rightly points out, that Ruben Amaran will get his three-year contract and things like that.

9:38increasingly we see clubs liking to make managerial changes at the end of the season, clean breaks and things. So much has been made about all the managers who are potentially available in the summer. Do we at least think that they're right going down the route of an interim? As much as we're kind of making disparaging comments about going back to Oli, back to club legends, Michael Carrick as well in there. Is the interim choice a good choice? Yeah, but does every single potential interim have to be a former Manchester United player? No, absolutely not. I'm asking the question. I'm not asking.

10:06I mean, that's ludicrous. You don't know. Yeah, probably. Because actually, if you look around and you say, who are they going to hire? That's not an easy question to answer as a permanent replacement. I'm not sure actually how much easier it'll be in the summer. Why so? What, because no one will want this job? Surely people still want this job. Yeah people still want the job But they've gone They've gone down so many Of these avenues Like in terms of Who they've hired since Fergie Like Jose Mourinho Louis van Gaal Like Eric Ten Hag Was the upcoming Upcoming kind of manager in Europe At Ajax Amorim had a good reputation We can trash it now But he did have a good reputation And he was looked at by a lot of Premier League clubs Including Liverpool So they've kind of done all these things I don't know what the next step is people keep talking about Premier League experience Thomas Tuchel's name's been mentioned because the World Cup will be over like can they wait that long like he's pretty feisty too I don't know what the answer is I just know it's not Oli Solskjaer it's not You don't think it is for the next six months?

11:14I just think it's I think you'd be better going with Carrick even just because he actually you know anyone who follows the EFL a bit will know that he actually crafted a really good team at Middlesbrough there were a lot of misfortune in terms of you look at the underlying numbers and stuff over a consistent period he played good football I actually think he's got quite a bright future and as I actually said on Monday's show I don't see I could have seen before we didn't know about Solskjaer and stuff then I could have seen Fletcher get into the end of the season for the same reason I honestly don't know if he would do a worse job than Solskjaer, but I bet there's not much in it.

11:58Yeah, Johnny, you wanted to come in on the various points Greg has been making. I actually agree with Greg earlier. I would go for Carrick over Solskjaer, despite my former fan club membership. I don't see... Oli had a certain effect the first time around, came in with that, you know, vibes is what it was dismissed as. But, you know, vibes are important, right? Vibes are culture. Absolutely, yep. But vibes aren't lasting. That was the point with Solskjaer. I don't see him having the same effect second time round. And I echo Greg Aslotson and Michael Carrick as a coach. I think he's very promising.

12:34So there'd be better going with that and with him and Fletcher until the end of the season. But the interim thing makes perfect sense in the state that they're in now. And by the way, Ineos love an interim. They did it three or four times with Nice. Because what's important is they have to get the next one right. Oh my God, Joe, I don't see that. We've said that before, right? We've said that before. But they do, because every time they get it wrong, they slip further behind, don't they? One of the failings with Amorim was their desperation to get him mid-season. And I was never an Amorim fan.

13:11I think his football was awful. Results were never good enough. But in fairness to him, he came into a really difficult situation that he didn't want to come into. And if they'd waited on him, and maybe start to build the squad for his needs, and he'd arrived for pre-season, it might have been different for him. It might. So they can't make that mistake again. There is no urgency in doing something now unless the right man's available. I just think we're still actually, although it sounds bizarre when talking about the next Manchester United manager, we're largely overlooking the biggest problem, which is that still, what's it, 13 years on, Manchester United have never hired a properly, like elite level executive class at the football club correct they've still not done it they tried to do it and they effed it up they hired Dan Ashworth and then they realised he wasn't the guy that they it probably would have been better leaving Dan Ashworth to hire everyone else like just he's a facilitator he'd be the one who had the overarching vision they trashed that vision and now they have a guy who's totally unproven as I said the other day has one year on his CV at Southampton in the Championship and he's the one making the next well he's a big voice in the conversation making the next choice.

14:25So actually, instead of talking about who they should hire as the next manager, we need to talk about who they have deciding who to hire the next manager. That's Manchester United's biggest problem and it has been for... But their owner has to listen. Jim Ratcliffe has to listen to whoever he hires because he ignored Dan Ashworth on his reservations about Reuben Amrim. He ignored Jason Wilcox in terms of reservations about Reuben Amrim. So whoever they get in, they have to listen to him the other issue is an ownership or chief executive because before then we had Ed Woodward who wanted to run everything but the top tier of the club whoever they hire in the middle tier they don't listen to they want to do it themselves and the other thing is is where they keep going down this road of former players and all of this the problem is that it's it's like when Mike Ashley made Alan Shearer the manager of Newcastle.

15:26That was a big deal to about three players in the Newcastle team who would have remembered what Alan Shearer was and what he represented in the north-east of England. If you're left-backs from Paraguay, Alan Shearer really doesn't make any difference. You need someone who's going to coach, who's not just going to talk about D &A and this was what it means. This is what it means. And you look at Manchester United now, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, fantastic. What does Ole Gunnar Solskjaer actually mean to Patrick Dogu, for instance? What does that mean? And expand that to any number of Manchester United players.

16:09He's a name in the record book. Also what it means to Bruno Fernandes, who was one of the few players who was there last time, Harry Maguire, he'd be like, all right, Ole, nice to see you again. Yeah, exactly. you're not getting the new player bounce there really are you? Just very quickly on, because we're talking about interims and things and saying interims are probably the right way to go it would be Carrick, does anyone have like a name for the summer that they think this would be a good fit? Assuming they get European, say Carrick or Solskjaer comes in, bit of vibes bit of Man United DNA we're going to attack, we're going to score four if you score three and they finish fifth, sixth getting to Europe, who's your man in the summer?

16:48Anyone got a name? Yeah, go on. Go on, Johnny. Well, they won't do it, but they should ask Unai Emery. They won't do it because he would want too much control and power. But he's outside of Guardiola and Arteta. He's the outstanding manager of this era who has worked at the biggest clubs. I think he's an obvious choice, but they won't do it. So if you're looking younger, you're probably looking at an Iriola or a Herzler I'd look at Tuchel but I don't know if he'd go if he'd take that given his experience of speaking to Manchester United the last time didn't go very well that's where I'd be looking Greg a very easy shaking your head when you fell I'm just going to say I would not give it to any of them but I don't know who I would give it to so fair play Johnny at least you gave us some names I think Unai Emery's communication would be a big issue when you're the manager of Manchester United.

17:47It was at Arsenal. It's not quite the same at Aston Villa. I just don't think he's the figurehead of a club of that stature. More so because of when it goes wrong. It's easy to understand than Alex was at some point. Easy. You put those Scots back in their place, Martin Goodland, wasn't it? There we go. Kieran McKenna? Glasner, Iriola, you just have... They're great. but you just have reservations about when you're the team who's not the upstart what are they going to be like if I was to go for either of them it would probably be Glasner but still that would be a punt they're all punts like there's no one I could see I can't see who Martin anyone?

18:31any of the big names that are out there any of the big names you'd go with I've always been a very big admirer of Thomas Tuchel and I think Thomas Tuchel would be an excellent Manchester United manager and now there is a confrontational side to him without a shadow of a doubt. But maybe that's what Manchester United need. Maybe they need someone to challenge it, someone to shake it up, someone to make decisions that aren't necessarily conventional. The problem with Tuchel is, you've got to give the man a couple of weeks off at least after the World Cup. Before taking on the biggest job in Europe.

19:11Exactly. And you've got to presume that England are right there until the very last day of it. Yeah, yeah. Andy might fancy sticking around, apparently, as we learned a few months ago. But, you know, you'd look at that and go, right, okay. So when could he take over? The 1st of August. So you've got to do all your business. You've got to set everything up without him there. Then he comes. The timings are not ideal. The timings are not ideal at all. It's not good for England either. Well, I mean, look. Knowing he was off to Man United. Remember that happened in Spain, in La Porte. Yeah, yeah, true.

19:51But if you're above ball, I mean, look, if they wanted security, give him to, you know, they had the chance to give him a four-year contract. If they wanted security, give him a four-year contract. They didn't give him a four-year contract. They gave him a contract until summer 2026. So they can't really, there's no disloyalty involved in that. There's no disloyalty at all. We think he's probably finished with football management, but Gareth Southgate, anyone? Man United? Vibes? I think he is finished with football management, actually. Eddie Howe. I think Eddie Howe has done a good job. Had a good run at Newcastle.

20:27A few little tensions going on. Yeah, of course. There could be. Johnny? No, I think what the United have to accept as well is a place in the scheme of things at the moment. Yeah. So when they're looking at the new manager, they've also got to look at how long is it going to take us and how do we get there to challenging for a title again? And it seems to me that one of the fallacies of Amram was that they thought, well, this guy's just got such a personality that it's a magic bullet. There isn't a magic bullet. So I think they've got to look at a manager who's going to take them to the Champions League, first of all, and then get in the Champions League regularly, reinvest that money.

21:10and look at being challengers in five years' time. But nobody wants to hear that because United fans have been waiting for so long. They want it now. But if you look at Klopp at Liverpool, you look at Arteta's job at Arsenal, it's a five-year thing to take a club from where United are now. Yeah, absolutely. Loads of challenges ahead for Ineos and Manchester United. United fans do get in touch with me, as you often do, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Tell me who you want as the next manager, whether it's interim or permanent, and we can discuss it on Monday's show. as I say United getting a 2-2 draw with Burnley Darren Fletcher switching to a back four turns out it maybe wasn't just the back three that was the issue after all looking a little bit short in this game I thought two important goals for Benjamin Sesko and a brilliant goal from Jadon Anthony for Burnley well worth their point let's move on and talk about another team that have made a managerial change Chelsea Liam Rossignor as I said earlier in the stands to watch a defeat at Fulham going to get this in very early because it'll definitely be forgotten Fulham absolutely excellent in this game I thought really really brilliant Harry Wilson is in the form of his life at the moment playing really really brilliantly after that difficult start to the season when some of us were going annoying podcast hosts were asking questions about whether they were in relegation trouble turns out Marco Silva is actually quite a good manager maybe he should get the Man United job but Martin on Chelsea and Rosinia he'll be watching this it all went well for Callum McFarlane at Manchester City great point and everything like that and then Mark Kukarela's early red card a fifth red card for a Chelsea player this season of course always messes with your game plan.

22:40But perhaps this was a sign of the slight chaos that can always encapsulate Chelsea at times and what Rossini has... He's got a big job on his hands, hasn't he? He has, yeah. Which is why I should have been on the touchline, not in the stand. Yeah. I've always thought, you know, take over. You're going to take over, take over. I don't know what you're watching that you couldn't have watched from the touchline and then tried to influence. If you're a man with a six-and-a-half-year contract, I really don't like that sort of stuff I really think that a manager you get the job you go in there all this I'm going to watch it I'm going to watch it from up there and then I'm going to make my first match against Charlton Athletic oh well done you know get the Fulham away get the Fulham away he knew how good Fulham were what form they were in he was like yeah but mate the same thing Rudvan Nistelroy who didn't watch Leicester's first who didn't take Leicester's first match of his tenure against Brentford away but was very happy to take charge for West Ham at home.

23:38You know, I really don't like that sort of stuff. I really don't like it. And he's sitting next to the co-owner who, I don't know if he'd convinced, you know, sit next to me, mate, the fans love me. But it turns out they don't. Yeah, I mean, look, they've gone from being the world champions to, what are they at the moment, the second best team in West London or is it the third best team in West London at the moment? It's not good. It's really not good. It's not a way to run a football club. I was not as convinced by Mureska as some, but at the same time, in the end, he's got the bullet, it seems like, for thinking that because he won a couple of trophies, they might start listening to him.

24:26And again, it's another one of those clubs, five sporting directors. you know okay let's hear from the sporting directors absolutely you know I made that a part of I think it was the piece on Manchester United I've written so many about managers getting sacked this week I can't remember which one's which it's only Thursday you never know but you know you never hear from these directors in football and they've got such immense power especially when Jason Wilcox is going in and telling Ruben Amarim to play a back four as well which we believe is where the ruction started in the first place. And you just look at the Chelsea situation, one of those guys come forward.

25:07One of those guys come forward and just explain what this philosophy is. Because none of us looking at it can really quite see it. And I was prepared to give... Last year, in the end, you give them benefit of the doubt because they'd worked out, or I'm giving them the credit for working out, that they had the longest season in English football history to deal with. The longest actual, not one with a COVID break in the middle, a proper 11-month season. And so having this big, big squad that we all looked at and went, well, this isn't insanity, this is unwieldy, it actually ended up quite the smart move in the end because it allowed them to cope with it.

25:48In the same way, I can understand why Mureska kept making changes this season because he's dealing with the fallout from that. but it cannot just be that everything gets thrown up in the air every time there's a transfer window, certainly a summer transfer window, the cards fall where they may and then three months later we're saying, oh yeah, everyone keeps getting sent off because it's a very young team. You go, what fault is that? Yeah. Johnny, some of your thoughts there to some of the points Martin's made, he's obviously bringing in sporting directors again, very culpable in all of this. We've seen the end of the manager, aren't we?

26:21Well, yeah. But again, this also goes beyond sporting directors. If we're seeing a reduction in the manager's power, which I think is what we are, I think that's the phase the game is in, and it's not just a phase, that's where we're going. It's not necessarily the sporting directors that are taking over. It's ownerships. So yeah, Chelsea have got five sporting directors, but one effect of having five sporting directors is it dilutes each one of them's importance and power, doesn't it? And this is run, you know, the fans are protesting specifically about Blueco because they know how Chelsea's being run.

26:56This is an ownership model. They should be coming out and telling us what it is. I think we can, you know, Martin's described it very well. I think we can piece it together. It's buying lots of players, specifically buying lots of young players and trying to grow those players in terms of value. I mean, it's a trading model. And it's quite a clever trading model, but is it a winning Premier League's model? And Maresca, having won a Club World Cup, thought that perhaps he might be able to sign a couple of more senior players and the kind of players you might need to start to properly challenge Arsenal and Chelsea.

27:41And that didn't fit with the vision. It struck me that Liam Rossini in his introductory video specifically talked about the age of the Strasbourg team that he'd managed and says in that video, oh, Strasbourg, we had an average age was 20.8, youngest in Europe. He's saying what the owners want to hear. The owners want this. And as I say, it's great for developing those assets in terms of value, but is it a winning the league model? you come back to a point you made about Manchester United Johnny and the need for at the very start before you win the league you need consistent Champions League football just a one word answer would Enzo Maresca have got Chelsea Champions League football if he'd still been in charge Martin no Gregor?

28:27I don't think so not the way it was going maybe Johnny? I think yeah because the other thing looking at it now and we've briefly mentioned it already but like you know Brentford into fifth Newcastle in three wins on the spin up to six this mad season we're in if this goes wrong for Chelsea in this season where anyone can beat anyone and this group of teams behind the top three the top two they could end up finishing seventh couldn't they? Eighth as they are at the minute it's very fine margins the only reason I say no is that I'm looking at it and thinking right well Arsenal are better than them City are better than them Villa are probably better than them Liverpool have kind of got their act together and then you look at Liverpool and think they're not going to be that bad all season.

29:11City, they're not going to be that bad all season. And I've always thought Chelsea would finish top four, but recently you're looking at them and thinking, well, this is not really coming right. And I know Cole Palmer has got considerably better form to come into than he's shown since he's been back from injury, he's been managed, yada, yada, yada. But you still look at it and think, where's the 20 goal a season? You still look at it and think, you know, as soon as they get one or two injuries, do I fancy the centre-halves and stuff? And so you look at it and think they're vulnerable to those ones below, i.e., as you say, Brentford and Newcastle and teams like that, Fulham with their gander up or whatever.

29:58Any of those teams below could have Chelsea on their day. Absolutely, yeah. And that's a big problem. Yeah, absolutely. Chelsea fans, get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Tell me if you're worried about your team's chances for the rest of the season. Loads more still to come, talking about more managers under pressure and badly run clubs when it comes to Tottenham and West Ham. But it's time for a quick break. No time for a quiz. We'll be back in a sec.

30:37Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Loads more to talk about in the second half of the show. Just some results from last night to whiz through Newcastle. What an absolute thriller at St James' Park. I was editing on the desk last night and we just had the goals flooding in. We had our work experience member Edie who was just, her job was, I told her, shout out the scores as they come in. And she stayed all the way to the end just going, there's another goal. There's another goal. I can't believe it. Absolutely brilliant. probably the best night of work experience any journalist has ever had on a national newspaper.

31:07I just wanted to read you Martin Hardy's excellent intro, which sums up some of the news we were getting last night and this amazing game. He said, of course it finished 4-3. What else could it have been? It was a victory and a game of football for Kevin Keegan, whose cancer diagnosis was announced hours before this game. It was a night of spellbinding drama at St James' Park in his honour. It was 10.20pm when Harvey Barnes somehow squeezed in that winning goal. In the 12th minute of added time, St James' Park erupted. what joy suddenly filled the old stadium. Wonderful writing from the Times team.

31:36As usual, I'll say it was well, timed at 101 minutes and 48 seconds. Harvey Barnes' winning goal for Newcastle is the latest ever winning goal in a Premier League match since Optus started recording them in 06-07. Moving on, Brentford-Sunderland, also a cracking game, also got loads of shouts in the office. Oh my God, he's done a Penenka and missed it. Can I just quickly ask, does anyone like a Penenka? because I was thinking, even if you see one scored, I still go, you tosser. Even if, I don't know whether it's my lower league upbringing and I've never seen a Lincoln player score a Penenka, but honestly, even when they're scored, I'm like, you mop it.

32:14What did you do that for? You might have missed. Johnny, you're a big fan of a Penenka. I like a Penenka. I've never tried one, by the way, but come on, there's nothing better than seeing a Penenka go in. No, top bins, top bins. No, I'm still angry about Zidane's. High pressure moments, yeah, like Pier Lowe's against Joe Hart in the 2012 quarter final. That's the only one I'll give you. That's the only one I'll give you. And he only gets away with it because he's Italian and he's got long hair. You won't give us Paninka's one? Yeah, he can have it as well. Because that was, you know, that was a bit special.

32:45The one where the guy gets it named after him. There's not too much you do in football, you get it named after you. But just very quickly, risk-reward ratio, I'd say it's not, it's very fine line, isn't it, in terms of the potential reward versus the risk of looking like an absolute clown. It's one of those you look like a genius if it goes in and you look like an absolute clown if it doesn't. I mean, it's as simple as that. But that, in many ways, is a metaphor for the entire sport because if you win the match, everyone goes, oh, whatever. If you listen to the commentary, a team can get absolutely battered and then they go one nil up.

33:22And the first thing the summariser says is, well, you know, this has been coming, or, you know, well, you've got to give them credit here. And you're thinking, mate, five minutes ago, you said they were getting absolutely owned. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, speaking of teams that kind of can look like they're battering teams, Brentford, Greg, are they keeping it going? Is this momentum? Is this just, can they keep going? It's Thiago, isn't it? 16 goals. Amazing. The most by a Brazilian. That's a great stat to have, isn't it? Yeah. And just like Brentford with the strikers, I don't know how they keep doing it.

33:54It's extraordinary. You'll think of the list after selling in Wemo and Wissa and Tony and Watkins and Ben Rama and Moppy. It just keeps going. And they were all bought for like, you know, all of them were less than 10 million and sold for, you know, 40, 50, sometimes more. It's incredible. And after a year out as well. This guy was bought before they sold Tony, wasn't he? Yeah, it's always a succession plan. He predates Ivan Tony. So this is the guy they've bought six months before they know they're going to lose Ivan Tony. then he gets injured and then Ivan Toni gets you know banned or whatever it's absolutely magnificent The biggest compliment you can give him to is every time he's through on goal goal you think it's a goal yeah absolutely you've got supreme confidence in him scoring fantastic season so far for Keith Andrews Brentford and Thiago let's just talk about some of the VAR issues that came up or some refereeing decisions in the mid-week action Unai Emery wasn't happy with the VAR in Villa's draw at Palace but more importantly perhaps Everton two red cards for them against Wolves with the VAR interfering with Michael Keane for a hair pull, hair tug?

35:01What would we call it? Gregor, Defenders Union, watching this? Where are you at? Game's gone or part of the game now it's a definite red card? I mean, I don't know. Do you know what I read? I was reading the... Do you need a break from this podcast? Do you know what works, right? I ask a question and you generally try and give an opinion. So far today you've just gone, I don't know. There are so many. Slagged off Johnny for picking a load of Man United managers and then couldn't pick one. Now I've asked you for it. Let me tell you my journey on this, right? I watched the highlights when I got into the office today.

35:33So I was reading a report on the Tube Inn and I read David Moyes' quote saying, you have to be some player. I was a defender to jump and manage to pull someone's hair while you're trying to win a header. And I was thinking, that sounds about right, yeah. And then I watched it and I think, well, that's what he did, David. Like, you know, maybe he is some player because he gave it a good yank. So then the next thing is, is it still deserving of a red card? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It's not like... When he said, you're sent off from violent conduct, was that violent conduct? No. Not for me. Anyone else, Johnny?

36:08Yeah, it seemed a very brief tug of the hair. But I mean, we can't pull people's hair, right? I mean, and we should go back and retrospectively punish Peter Crouch for pulling Brent Sancho's hair against Trinidad in the 2006 World Cup, which was shocking. But it's a... Look, I'm not even sure Michael Key meant to do it. No. But although it looks comical, it's a pretty... What else is he trying to do? We're not trying to grab our little shirt or something just for leverage. He's watching the ball. That's what I thought he's doing. The kind of weight of his dreadlocks. It was a no-brainer. And I was there for a while.

36:47I thought he was trying to grab something. Yeah, he's here. but anyway you can't just give him a short back and side that's what you'd do wouldn't you you'd go boom and then you'd type it right you had to go next question oh he's got a point at last everyone thank god Romero on Cucurea if we remember that one yeah that's like a full fist of his big like fluffy barnet that was violent because he's exactly this was this was not quite the same Joe just let her go yeah yeah Joe very quickly anyone think players should be allowed a little bit of sarcastic applause at the end of the game. Jack Grealish, I mean, why is sarcastic applause worse than like a volley of abuse in a referee's face, effing and blinding, whatever, and you get told, go away, go away.

37:30Grealish is fouled, he gives the old sarcastic applause. Come on, let him have that, surely? Anyone? Gris McGregor, Mr Letter of the Law, Johnny? That's the one I disagreed with, because, I mean, it wasn't even in the referee's face, was it? It was, sometimes that sarcastic... There's been a lot in the referee's face, though. I think it was becoming a really hard night for him. So it's kind of taking the piss. Yeah, I think it's okay. He's off. Greg, how much is he? Mr. Football League, Mr. Hardman Scotland. He's been in Northampton far too long. Yeah, he is a referee now, Jonny. You're right.

38:02He's done all these courses he makes with these referees. Anyway, there we go. I could talk to you about referees in this midweek if you want. No, no. Let's get on to it. No, no. We've got far too much to talk about because we need to talk about West Ham and Tottenham. Let's get back to some of those. There's some of that. Exactly. it's almost like I know what I'm doing I'm linking it in you see VAR decision you see where I'm going with this West Ham losing against Nottingham Forest in a big bottom of the table clash Martin I'm going to come to you very shortly on West Ham and the state of the club in general but Gregor you were there for this match and when we were discussing it briefly afterwards you felt they were a bit well very unlucky bit unlucky where's the barometer at?

38:36Yeah I said to Martin this morning West Ham given the way they're running how they've gotten to this mess are not that easy a club to feel much sympathy for but I felt sorry for them after this game because the two decisions were decisions that split opinion you could say at least and that sounds daft thing to say about an offside decision but it's just a mad offside decision for several reasons like the way that it wasn't really even a pass it was like a half tackle half dribble that Somerville was making as the ball broke wide to Castanelos and Castaneda was moving backwards from an offside position and was like marginally offside and then there was still a lot happened after that he switched to play Kyle Walker-Pierce had a shot that was blocked Somerville was there chest control finish really really hard for that to happen and then obviously Forrest went straight up and equalised and then the penalty is a VAR penalty it's a VAR era penalty it's a coming together in real time that no one thinks you think that was a bit Suchek headed the ball away.

39:41It didn't actually impact much. But now when you go to VAR and you look at it, it's a stonewall penalty. So I don't know. I felt sorry for them because they battled valiantly. They've been stinking in a lot of games in recent weeks. Or they've kind of crumbled. They've not really shown much metal. I thought they battled really hard in the second half and they were unlucky to lose the game. My, and your thoughts on the situation at West Ham? As you mentioned earlier, you've written a lot of columns about the state of various football clubs and ownership models and things like that. but partly linking in some of Gregor's points there, they've been in terrible form lately, they've showed a lot of spirit and a lot of bad luck in this game, do you think?

40:18But generally, where are West Ham at the moment? Are they staring down the face of relegation? Ages ago that West Ham were relegated. The most interesting thing here is, how is a tackle not playing the ball? Not having the ball under control? You've done exactly, we were talking about this earlier, You've done exactly what you intended to do. The very fact that you don't know where the ball is going to go, you don't know where the ball is going to go when you have a shot. But you can't say that you haven't got the ball under control when you shoot a goal. The very fact that you might slice it and it's the corner flag, that's that you're doing exactly what you intend to do.

40:59A tackle does what you intend to do. I've got the penalty. I can see, look, I can see that. This I can see from the offside point of view, but I think we have so lost sight of what the original laws of the game are meant to be about. If you're talking about you can make a tackle and if it goes straight to the opposition, it doesn't count. That's an accident. What, you tackle someone by accident? Because you don't tackle anyone by accident. No one gets tackled by accident. You're running with the ball, someone tackles you. It's not an accident. The whole process of determining when a new phase of play does or doesn't start is really murky.

41:40And it's quite important. It really is. And also, the thing we were talking about this morning, you're almost, there's so much of these decisions now, where you're almost having to look into the future. Like, you know, he's right, you made the tackle. If it goes to, you know, if it goes to a teammate, then they've got position. That's his intention, really. It didn't happen. And, you know, when you tie all that in with the fact that the player's moving backwards and a lot happened afterwards. It just didn't feel right. No one in the stadium thought, oh yeah, there could be an offside here. No one.

42:10Are we at the point now where VAR is like a separate entity in a match in itself? You have the on-field officials and then you have the VAR and they're supposed to be linked and helping each other. But actually they're two completely separate entities now where the referee refs the match one way and then gets a word in his ear. They tell you things you never knew. Yeah, which is the complete wrong way of doing it, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah? We've lost sight of what the rules of the game how they were written and what they were meant to do. It's a point I've made a number of times. Everyone's bored with it.

42:42When the rules of the game were written, there was no way of judging if you were toenail offside or if your shoulder was offside or if a tiny part of your body was offside. The whole point was offside was meant to be something that the linesman or the referee and everybody in the crowd could see with their naked eye. You could go, oh, right, he's in front of him. He gained an unfair advantage. And gained an unfair advantage. And what we've got now is this tiniest margin that is no attempt to gain an unfair advantage. It is no actual unfair advantage because, you know, if your big toe is in front of the other guy, it doesn't necessarily mean you win the ball.

43:25And I don't understand it. And it's not just because it's West Ham because I've got no problem because coming back to your point about West Ham, The reason bad teams seem to get bad luck is that they're never far enough in front that the bad luck doesn't affect them. Do you know what I mean? If West Ham were 3-0 up against Nottingham Forest, the goalkeeper can punch who he likes on the hooter. And it really doesn't matter because, you know, it's a penalty and it goes to 3-1. but if you are a bad football team you are never so far in front that one little reversal of fortune can't mess you up and that's what happens to West Ham all the time and also they play like joins against Wolves Johnny just coming in on West Ham in general if you've got any views on VAR please do add them but on West Ham generally Martin said they're going down and said it for a while on this show and in various columns on the Times website your thoughts on the state of the club they're in real trouble if they get relegated aren't they?

44:25Yeah 100 % and I think we've been talking about changing managers and maybe not affecting the bigger picture I think that's entirely West Ham they are where they are because of years of bad leadership by that board terrible recruitment they've just done it again they've signed a couple of strikers to try and get themselves out of trouble you look at their records Tati, I've written his name down, Castellanos Tati Castellanos Two goals this season for Lazio before signing. Pablo. Tati Bai would be more. Yeah, Tati Bai. Pablo, you know, one goal every five games in Portuguese football where, you know, Victor Jokeres could score two goals every game.

45:11This is where the club are. It's recruitment after recruitment. Nuno's, he's drowning there, but look at his defence. We talked about this. Yeah. before, didn't we? Look at the midfield. You know, they've got Jarrod Boone, but look what else they've got. And I think they're doomed now. Interesting West Ham fans. If you've got any views on any of the points, the guys are made. Do get in touch with me. As always, tom.clark at thetime.co.uk. The final club with managerial issues and chaos and boardroom problems. Tottenham defeated at Bournemouth 3-2 last night. Lots of Tottenham fans, some that I know, some that work in the office, lots of ones that listeners as well getting in touch seem to have turned against Thomas Frank now.

45:53We've got Christian Romero coming out overnight, appearing to criticise the Tottenham board in a late night social media post. He wrote, Apologies to all fans who follow us everywhere, who are always there and will continue to be. We are responsible. There's no doubt about that. I am the first, but we will keep facing up and trying to turn the situation around. At times like this, it should be other people coming out to speak, but they don't. As has been happening for several years now, they only show up when things are going well to tell lies. Romero later appeared to edit this Instagram post to remove the reference to those lies but we saw it Christian we saw it first but he did pledge to continue getting sent off yes that is I would say a big issue for him you know and leading the club in his own inimitable way where do we think does Thomas Frank is he Tottenham manager at the end of the season anyone think oh god I hope so like that's the only way I can answer that why do you hope so because it's the same kind of conversation although not to you know quite the same extremes as we've had about other clubs here is it's not all on him.

46:53No. Like, there are things that he could do that would change the narrative a bit. I think I read somewhere that they're averaging 10.2 shots a game, which is their lowest on record since 1997-98. Yeah. Their attacking is really like clunky's being kind. But in this game, actually, they had some good chances. Yeah, they did okay. 60 efforts on goal. Like, it was a bit of a bonkers game and it was won at the end by, you know, a great strike by and Antoine Cimeno but ultimately 14th after 12 matches the way that you know the whole kind of conversation is now developed about can he kind of move away from being a set piece as a sort of effective football manager to one that can play some more exciting goal scoring attacking football he needs to answer those We've got van der Ven rowing with the fans at the end of the game Thomas Frank is holding a press conference today at 2 o 'clock so by the time you're listening to it he'll already have had his say on his state at the club and some of the reaction to Bournemouth.

47:51But Johnny, thoughts on the Thomas Frank situation at Tottenham? The fans have turned against him. It's always hard to get that back, isn't it? Yeah, such an unhappy club, I fear for him. You know, I rated him, I do rate him, but he hasn't worked for him, hasn't done a particularly good job. But again, it's another club where you look beyond the manager and this decline set in after 10 games of Ange, after his brilliant start. But Tottenham, basically, there's 18 months of this before Thomas Frank arrived, and he just hasn't been able to move the dial. But will he survive? I doubt he'll be the manager at the end of the season.

48:30Yeah, I can see that. I mean, Conor Mourn wrote in the week, I think one of the problems he's got is there's a new board, and they seem to want to be liked. That's really dangerous.

48:49because there's a very easy way to be liked if the manager's unpopular. Yeah. Particularly if the impression you've given is that you're going to be throwing off the shackles of the leave a year and we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And all you've actually done so far is sell one of your players to Crystal Palace and then get an injury in exactly the position that he would have covered for. Now, no one's clairvoyant. you can't see that Kudos is going to get injured. But it is a great irony. He was also their top scorer last season as well, I think, Brendan Johnson. Absolutely, Brendan Johnson.

49:22So he would have come straight into where Kudos plays. And they've sold him. And they haven't got anyone in yet. And the fans aren't happy. And the ball would like to be liked. Do I have to draw pictures? Because there's a very easy win for the ball. and it doesn't involve Thomas Frank. Do we think this is a similar scenario though with Manchester United as we outlined of where once you lose Thomas Frank, where do you go from Thomas Frank? Tottenham have this history of flip-flopping back and forth between kind of pragmatic coaches who then get criticised by fans for not stylistically being right to then the extreme the other way.

50:05And Prostokoglu, it's great fun but it's chaos and it doesn't work. Where do you go after Thomas Frank? Maybe they'll go to the interim. Ryan Mason's available yeah actually yeah very true well they could go back to that last Tottenham team that won the league it's Cliff Jones too yeah he's always on the pitch at the stadium isn't he he was it's go on Jonny no it's it's like United you know come out as an ownership or executives tell us what's the objective for you what do they think Tottenham more wins more often John can you remember that more wins more often it's been 9-25 so far okay well that's a start more wins more often no but what do they think they are are they Champions League club is it about winning I mean it doesn't seem to be because of what happened to Ange is it about style of play you kind of never know with Spurs and this actually predates the Lewis family taking more control it was kind of like this under Daniel Levy never quite sure beyond turning a profit what the objective was yeah in fairness you know the one the one piece of credit you can give to Chelsea is they know what they want from their head coach and they make they know the parameters don't say anything they tell them the parameters shut up they say this is your job that's what they want yeah and they've hired appropriately accordingly and like they've fallen down their pecking order a bit they've summoned that they've kind of nurtured a bit but that's the only bit of credit I'll give them but we're talking about all these clubs and you know who they're going to go for like what's their identity it's not clearly it can't be that easy it can't be that easy we don't know what the answer is Tottenham fans we always love hearing from you you do get in touch with me Martin you wanted to Greg has mentioned it already a brilliant finish from Antoine Semenyo to kind of cap his time at Bournemouth before he completes his move to Manchester City we were discussing this before the show it's remarkable isn't it to have this transfer lined up played every game over the festive period and finishes with a 95th minute winner absolutely they've picked him for every single game he's turned up he hasn't shielded he hasn't said oh my head isn't I might get injured.

52:13I might get injured. You know, I mean, credit to Bournemouth for taking the risk as well because that could put the transfer down the tubes. But credit to Manchester City as well because they haven't got in his ear and said, you know, you need to tell him you've got a migraine or something like that and, you know, get up to us and sign. Now, or if they have, he's turned around and said, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to play for Bournemouth until I'm your player. I think it was fantastic. And I was delighted for him that you go out like that. Because if ever a guy deserves to go out on a big finish, it's Semenya.

52:55And then get a brilliant move to Manchester City as well, who looked like they need him after the last two games, slightly stuttering in front of goal with a 1-0 draw against Brighton, which was great news for Arsenal. and that's where we're going to finish the big game of the midweek we're not even going to be able to talk about until Monday's show. Greg, Arsenal-Liverpool tonight. Anyone got any predictions? Anyone think Arnie Slott and Liverpool might show their credentials as champions and upset Arsenal? Or is it Arsenal's to win? Johnny? I think this is the night Arsenal should seal it. I mean, there's always a question because we've seen this before.

53:29But yeah, I think Arsenal win that game. Liverpool's injury list added to the start. they've had the season added to their issues should lay this one not on a plate but yeah Arsenal should win this one Martin? Gregor you've struggled with giving some answers on this show do you want to give a big prediction now Liverpool 3-0 go on why not No I think Arsenal win and I think it's been a pretty seismic week really when you consider that City have lost Guardiola, Diaz Savinho as well John Stones is sidelined that in this game they played Kusunov and Max Alain who they just recalled from Watford at centre half doesn't like augur well for them to really put up a big fight there you go Arsenal fans what could possibly go wrong if you're listening to this on your way to the Emirates tonight we hope you enjoy the game maybe we've jinxed you who knows we'll find out when we return Johnny Northcroft, Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel thank you very much for joining me as always thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday we'll see you then