Who makes the decisions the coach or the players?

0:04Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. Nottingham Forest were denied a winning return to European football by a late Anthony Equaliser in a 2-2 draw with Real Betis on Wednesday night. But Ange Ball appears to have taken hold. Alexander Isak is off the mark for Liverpool, but after Hugo Eketiki's stupid red card, will Arnish Slott's star strikers be a welcome problem this season or a potential headache? Plus, after the departure of a key Unai Emery ally this week, should alarm bells be ringing at Aston Villa? And we'll be debating if the end of Pepism is upon us, and if Pep Guardiola himself may even be the man to bring the cathedral tumbling down.

0:45I'm Gregor Robertson, and joining me on today's show we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, and the Football Correspondent for the Sunday Times, Jonathan Northcroft. Guys, good to have you. Big night for Nottingham Forest in Europe on Wednesday night, 30 years away from European football. And it was so nearly, so nearly a winning return, Johnny. And it finally looks like Ange Postacoglu's fingerprints are on this Nottingham Forest team. Yeah, I've been quite surprised and impressed, I suppose you have to say, about the speed with which Ange Boll has been delivered.

1:25and he did tell us he would do this. I was at the game of Arsenal when he had made his introduction and he said, no, no, it'll be there by midweek in the Swansea game. And, you know, I could then cruelly say, well, yeah, they lost 3-2 and it was there. No, but I mean, all the kind of and tropes, good and bad, seem to be there. But I think, you know, we should probably focus on the good because I think overall it was a very good night for Forrest. It was a stylish way to make the return to European football. They had great support, really, really good support. I think the fans really enjoyed it.

2:00And in passages, the football was superb. You looked at the first goal in particular of Jesus' first strike for Forrest. I mean, you had a defender coming out. You had Morata stepping out in the midfield, bringing the ball to the sides. You had Zinchenko playing him in a 10 position. you had a really quick passing interchange lovely one touch football across the back post I think Hamza in his match report called it a tapestry of football it was a really lovely sort of exposition of that kind of attacking, ensemble attacking that Ange wants and Forrest should have been probably three or four goals by half time by the looks of things but then end up under pressure and conceding a goal that begins with a throw-in late on and it was a nicely worked move by Betis but it started from a position you shouldn't concede so we're seeing the good and the bad but if one of the things Forrest wanted and Maranakis wanted from this change was a different type of football adventure it looks like it's already been delivered Martin, do you agree with that?

3:16We've seen the good and the bad of Ange Postacoglu's approach. Nottingham Forest sort of peaked last season in many ways. And so I can't say that I'm totally surprised that games are being lost towards the end because that sort of stuff was happening at the end of the last campaign. So I don't really blame Ange necessarily for that. I thought it was a really good game. Betis is a different It's not an easy place to go to Betis It's a lively old stadium They've got good players I mean you look at what You look at the money The Manchester United Paid for Anthony For instance Whether we think that was Money well spent or not At the time When they bought it No one was saying Well this is a complete Waste of money They paid top dollar For one of the best forwards You know Best young forwards In Europe So All of that It's not the worst result.

4:17It's your first group game and you've drawn two all the way at Real Betis. I think that's good. Igor Jesus scores two goals. So now you're looking at it and thinking, right, well, there is a genuine alternative to Chris Wood. You know, I think there was a lot of positives on it last night. No, I agree. One of the exciting things, just with a sort of England hat on, is looking at the role Elliot Anderson's playing and thinking how he might further add to his repertoire under Ange. He seems to be licensed to get into the box and create play as well as just sort of breaking it up in the way that we saw those Spurs midfielders like Sarr doing so under Ange.

5:05You can see him adding to his repertoire. I mean every time I watch Anderson I think wow there's more to this guy than I thought but so it's not just a reasonable start, you can see sort of pathways for players opening up certain ones anyway that might really flourish under Ange Martin's right to say the result is not something we should put on Ange's shoulders in terms of losing a late goal but there were passages of play in moments where you thought it's so clear, it's striking that the changing approach like Zinchenko popping up from left back and sort of inside forward areas and picking out passes into the forwards but then at the other end they're looking pretty open sometimes to counter-attacks I mean if you're a forwards fan now you're probably this is probably the first first game first night of Ansh Bostogoglu's sort of tenure where you maybe get a little bit excited I would say so I mean look Zinchenko's mistake isn't it the equaliser because he's not alive to what's going on behind him and that's probably why you won't find him at Manchester City and then you won't find him at Arsenal there is a reason for that yeah if I was a nothing on Forest fan you'd think oh this could be fun this could be this could be this could be a lively I don't know what is it going to be two years two weeks two months you never know hopefully two years if they want to win a trophy yeah I mean look The man won this tournament last year It's not the time And he won it in quite a pragmatic way This is the first group game I don't think you're going to see pragmatism necessarily here You might see it later on But then once it gets to that stage of the tournament Fans don't mind a bit of pragmatism No one is looking for everyone to run around Balancing the ball on their nose Winning the semi-final of a tournament You know, they're looking to get over the line, basically.

7:07So, you know, I can see that. I would like to mention this because I've been reading a lot of stories about the Club World Cup and how everyone's dead and everything. Doesn't seem to have done Igor Jesus too much harm, by the way. I watched him from Botafogo this summer. He looked lively on the back of the Club World Cup. So maybe it's all just coincidence. Who knows? Johnny Martin referenced it, mentioned Anthony there as well. It's for striking even looking at this Betis team. They had Giovanni Lo Celso who'd been at Tottenham, Junior Foucault who'd been at Leeds, Amrabat who was at Manchester United, Pablo Fornals came on.

7:50There's a lot of Manuel Pellegrini in the dugout. Interesting to see these players getting a new lease of life and Anthony even more so than anyone given the way it went from at Manchester United. Yeah it is, I mean there's quite a lot of Premier League retreads isn't there I think all the players that we've mentioned are guys that you could see when they were in the Premier League were talented in some ways but couldn't handle the intensity Anthony in slow motion could always do that thing of cutting onto his left foot and taking a shot, it's just he was running into traffic and getting closed down too quickly in the Premier league and it sort of emphasises every time you see these players just how it's not that they're not good players it's just that they're good players at the wrong speed for English football and we're seeing the adaptation of difficult adaptation of someone like Wurtz who's such a talent but even he is struggling to do what he can do but at that higher pace we could go back to Thierry Henry in a bygone era feeling that but I feel that's more so than ever I must admit But watching Anthony play that lovely little pass, intelligent pass for the first goal, he seemed brainless at United, didn't he?

9:10He seemed like a stupid player who just wanted to do exactly the same thing all the time. And then you're seeing him, oh, then maybe there's a bit more to him in terms of how he sees the game. So you've also got to bear in mind that Man United factor of talents who get gripped by the tension that surrounds that club and not able to. The vortex. play like a yeah exactly the sort of death spiral of the talent at Manchester United but players look better away from United don't they it's a fairly consistent it's a fairly consistent theme of like that you look you look at you know and you think they look better now it could be the other thing it could be and I know Anthony was a player that was known to 10-0 could be the coach as well could be I mean I can remember Harry Redknapp saying about this long years ago about England coming up against teams you know like Uruguay and stuff like that and he said you know they come out and you're looking at the centre half and this centre half Marks has sent a forward out the game he was at Westbourne he was useless you know this gazer couldn't get the team at Coventry what's going on And then you sort of think, oh, maybe in a coherent system with everything working, they're better players.

10:39You don't know. Anthony could feel that the structure of Betis and what Pellegrini is doing and how he's got the team organized works for him better. Who knows? I'm not saying that is a definitive answer, but it just might be an explanation. By the way, I just want to say this Wasn't it fantastic, the two sets of colours Look at that, Nottingham Forest Looks like Nottingham Forest This is one of your pet peeves, isn't it? Oh my, totally Didn't turn into some all black Every kit that they could have been Anybody there, you know They just go, oh, it's just, you know All that actually tells them apart is Whatever sort of Chinese betting firm Is on the shirts or whatever They actually looked like nothing for it's that garibaldi red and bettis um i might put that in with the kit of the season that green and white black green and white striveshirts black shawls green shawls mate that they look like look like two identifiable teams looks like their identity fantastic i love that buying your western third kit for your christmas oh mate you know but that's it is that all those all black they're the ones that i hate the every kits you know the ones that you it just could be anybody everyone's got one everyone's got some either all black or all navy blue or whatever also because some marketing guru has gone oh this looks you know people will buy that and wear it with jeans you know and and you know it's stuff well you'd see a great night for Forrest despite the disappointment of that late equaliser and great to see Garibaldi red a sea of Garibaldi red in Seville in Europe again after 30 years more big nights to come for Nottingham Forrest it was also a big midweek slate of EFL Cup action Alexander Isak got off the mark for Liverpool and as Paul Joyce wrote in his match report it would have taken something quite significant to overshadow that moment after a British record transfer in the summer and Hugo Eketiki managed it Johnny Look I'm conflicted about this because first of all I think it's a stupid role that you get booked for taking your shirt off and celebrating I think pretty much all the kind of sanctions for celebrating are stupid and I've never quite understood where they've come from.

13:17That said, you know the rules there. We maybe don't even need to repeat it because significantly, Eketike himself has very quickly apologised and said emotion got the better of him. But that moment he takes it off and Frimpong runs over to him like, mate, what have you done? Because Frimpong knows, he's more aware than Eketike about what's about to happen. And of course, these things have got a habit of occurring in the context that, you know, makes him even worse. So he's now suspended at a time when it looks like Itzak maybe just has to be managed a little bit carefully with his fitness and had to come off at halftime.

13:58Hence Arnie Slott's reaction to it. But also, I love Slott. Sorry, Johnny, maybe the more interesting thing to sort of ask then is why he did it? Was it like a pointed, do you think, Do you think it was like a pointed celebration to say, you know, I'm here. This is my name. No, I don't think it was. No, I don't get that vibe off Eketiki at all. I think he seems like a confident lad, but a kind of a lad that sort of plays in the moment, stays in the moment, maybe needs to sort of grow up a little bit, but that's quite an appealing part of his nature. He looks like a big teenager when he plays. I kind of like that about him.

14:38He's fearless in that way as well. And I just think that's the sense of who he is. But I think Slott is, I love listening to him talk about situations like that, because I think he's got a way of mapping things out really clearly and firmly, but also unemotionally. And he managed to sort of articulate why he was so disappointed without it seeming like a kind of horrible rebuke to Ekotiki, and also managed to turn it into a message about, you know, Chiesa and teamwork and the times that you should really celebrate and actually you should celebrate your teammates and not yourself. I mean, he's a very clever, he's very clever with his message and I felt that he sort of, he got it right in that occasion.

15:29I don't think he could be doing it again. No. Martin, what do you think? I mean, you've mentioned in the past that this could be a... Rick and Bob were shooting stars. Love it. Big fight. They used to look at each other. If I was Arnie Schott, I got that. You know, look, everything that Johnny said is right. So you don't think he was like sending some kind of message? Well, I don't want to play against Crystal Palace. Please give my place to Alexander Isak. No. That would seem to be the message. No, no, you've spoken about earlier in the season, like very fairly, that, you know, when he arrived, when he was signed he didn't think they were going to sign Alexander Isak probably Liverpool did I don't think Liverpool thought they were going to sign Alexander Isak I've always said that they could sign that he's obviously a confident young man and he thinks and maybe maybe he was saying yeah I know there's another big guy in town but here I am yeah but the smart way of doing that is not to get yourself suspended no I know but do you think that's what he was doing you know it's just incredibly stupid I'm really you know I'd like to find it charming There's a lot of things I do find charming That other people don't find charming at all But this I just think it's incredibly stupid And I totally agree with John About the rule itself I've always thought As long as you keep your trousers on I mean, syllable however you like Really, you know But this But the rule is there I think it is ridiculous Sometimes that you find yourself on a motorway where there's not a soul there at two o 'clock in the morning and you're driving at 50 miles an hour because you know and there's no one wrong you've got three empty lanes and what are we doing but there's a great big sign that says 50 mile an hour so if you're bombing through it at 75 when you get nicked you can't really turn around and go but this is an unjust rule yeah it's a stupid rule yeah you should be able to get home half an hour earlier we you know we all know that But, you know, I just look at this and it's a daft rule You know, when it first started, I used to think Why can't the referees just exercise a bit of common sense?

17:47Someone's achieved the point of the game Why do we care whether they keep their shirt on or not? You know, but it's the rule I get that And the referees can't just suddenly sit there and go Well, I'm going to play my version of the rules you can't have that situation where you've got 10 matches of a weekend and everyone's playing a different set of the rules according to what the referee thinks is important. So these are the rules. And it was just true. He's not a kid. He's a young player, but he's not a kid. He's played enough football to know if you're on a booking, don't take your share. And the first booking he gets is for dissent.

18:26So you've got two. So I thought, I think John's right. What Arnie Slott said about team, think of your team, don't think of yourself. Someone said to me in the week that one of the things that in the end propelled Cole Palmer out of Manchester City was this feeling that he almost wanted the Instagram room as well. and that there's a breed of modern players who are sort of looking for that Instagram. And Cole Palmer seems very, very down to earth, but he's got that. He's got the celebration. And that was something that in the end, as well as the fact that Pep couldn't think that he could get him enough football and he knew that was going to be a frustration.

19:19But that was part of it. And I think a lot of managers are sort of struggling with that. at the moment that they're coming across a generation of players that don't necessarily think team first if you know what I mean and that we are very much in the time of the cult of the individual Just finally then on Liverpool and we discussed this on Monday but you know it's another game where they squandered a lead another game where they scored late on does any of this matter? I mean Martin you've written about this week you know the idea almost that some other Premier League rivals are surrendering already.

19:59Yeah, what Monska said I thought was ridiculous. I just think it could be impossible to catch him. Why are he five grand, is he? I don't see him. People say, oh, he's probably saying something different in private. But that, I just think management sometimes, part of it is about removing excuses all the time, removing excuses to fail, removing, I mean, you know, and that just seems as if, you know, you've sort of given up on it. With five games in, how can you talk about impossible? How can you talk about impossible five matches in? Do you want to? They've got to cry them twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:41Look, I think that's right. I find Chelsea's entire behaviour since winning the Club World Cup very, very odd. going back to this sudden churn of the team yet again this compulsive sort of attitude to trading where they've clearly built something and then right let's dismantle it again because there's deals to be done you know and then they bring in a set of players that are very similar to the ones that they've just sold but less experienced and need to be integrated and that didn't seem to have any logic it just seemed to be compulsive to me and then the start the season's been odd and as Martin you're right I mean, that mood music from Maresca is very, very strange because Chelsea should have been going into the season looking at themselves as up there with Arsenal as Liverpool's main challengers, without a doubt.

21:33Their ambition should have been exactly the same as Arsenal's this season. Without a doubt. And this churn of players, apart from in the one position where we're all looking at it and thinking, well, they've got to get a goalkeeper. They've got to get a proper goalkeeper. I mean I don't know if we saw Jorgensen the other night I mean Jesus I mean it was I mean he came off his line like a bloke with a blindfold I've never seen anything like it You know that was Jorgensen the other night I mean you just know if you put a cross in there If you put a throw in there Anything that went in there He wasn't getting it He was either going to stand on his line which is what he did against Manchester United.

22:17Did you see that goal at Manchester United? He comes about three paces and then his nerve fails him and he retreats and United score. And I really thought the Club World Cup was a turning point. I thought it was a turning point for Mureska. I really did because I thought the Chelsea fans would have to back him, would have to get behind his methods. And if OK, if the build-up play wasn't quite as quick as they would have liked, sometimes they've got to back him because they've just, you know, they've not had PSG in the final. I thought it was a turning point for Sanchez as well because Sanchez had a good tournament.

22:56He had a brilliant final. I mean, but, you know, if Cole Palmer doesn't do what he did, Sanchez is the man of the match, almost just for his passing alone. So you're thinking, right, they come back. This is a different Chelsea that, you know, that guy is no longer the weakling. And then within about three or four matches, you're looking at him going, no, that guy's different in the week. That guy, you know, nothing has changed. What he did against Manchester United, I mean, if you think they're going to score, let them score. It's four minutes into the game or five, or you're 85 minutes to beat Manchester United.

23:29I mean, 11 against 11, you've got a chance. Yeah. It was Lincoln City who gave Chelsea a scare at Central Bank. I'm sure Tom Clark was following along Giddley with a flowery cocktail in his hand on holiday. but a half-time rollicking by Enzo Maresca prompted two quick goals after the break so Chelsea came from behind to see who was a place in the next round fairly routine wins for Newcastle Tottenham Arsenal against Ligue 1 opposition did anyone see well I hope we saw Brighton 6-0 win and Diego Gomez's four goals a first half hat-trick and his third goal was an absolute worldie Johnny did we see this?

24:13Yeah, I mean, yeah. It was a funny one. The stadium seemed kind of empty. I don't know what was going on. So it deserved a full house, that performance. I must admit, I find Brighton really hard to read at the moment in terms of how they're going to play and who's going to be on the team sheet. But certainly in that context, you look to talent, eh? Yeah, Diego Gomez signed from Inter Miami in January is someone we might see more of in the Premier League soon OK, after the break we'll be looking at Aston Villa another turbulent week for Aston Villa and discussing Pep Guardiola and Michel Arteta See you then

25:03Welcome back to the game podcast from the Times. I'm Greg Robertson alongside Martin Samuel and Jonathan Northcroft. Aston Villa's turbulent start to the season continued this week with news that sporting director Monche was set to depart the club this week and Roberto Alabi is set to replace him. Aston Villa have one point and one goal from five games to start the season and Unai Emery described his team as lazy after the draw against Sunderland at the weekend. Johnny, Aston Villa have always had this power triangle at the top of the club involving Unai Emery and Monchi was one other kind of key pillar of that structure, that hierarchy.

25:54So how important is his departure and what does it tell us about Villa's kind of start to the season and where the club is at just now? Yeah, I mean, I think the context and the example I've got in mind, which, you know, I think Villa have got to guard against is what happened to Leicester after they came as close as they did under Brendan Orgers to crack in the Champions League and sort of being a consistent team that could be in the top four. And then a couple of years and then it fell apart very quickly. And it was quite rancorous with Brendan sort of being upset that the club couldn't go any further, feeling constrained and the board sort of being upset with him for being upset.

26:39And I think that like when the moment Brilla missed out on the Champions League in the circumstances, agonising, controversial circumstances they did, at Old Trafford last season. I did wonder if there was going to be a kind of a reaction, a hangover. And it's felt like ever since then, they haven't got over it really. I think psychologically, they haven't got over it. Emery's still pained by angry. The club are still angry that, you know, they gambled financially to try and get into the Champions League. Now they're paying for it, as we know with transfers. And it seems to me that this is part of how they've started the season in this state and even the players are talking about how unfair it's all been so I think what I'm trying to say is there's been a kind of cloud of upset and discontent at that club since going back to May and this news of Monchi going seems another sort of destabilising negative to it when you look on the surface, when you look at it closer though Roberto Alabi is just as much an Unai Emery ally as Monchie ever was, possibly more.

27:53I mean, this guy used to play with Unai. He managed Real Union, which is the club Unai and his family actually own in the Basque country. So I think they're very close. And perhaps this is, rather than this is being a blow to Emery, it's perhaps him strengthening his power base further. It's interesting what it says about Villa need to go with recruitment because Alabi's work at Sociedad, Sociedad are not big spenders, they recruit from the Pool of Basque players primarily and they sell but Alabi did some brilliant deals like Isak for 15 million euros I think it was and he signed David Villa on a free from Man City loaned in Odegaard from Real Madrid as a young player, Sorloff as well, another great loanee So I think it's maybe signals a shift to Villa recognising they need to go into a different way of trading and somebody that's got a bit more expertise in these deals and in development because the job at Sociedad is to develop players from within a really good academy like Zubimendi, et cetera, et cetera.

29:01So I think it signals that. But going back to what I said at the start, I think they just need to shape themselves out of this sort of like this negative mindset they're in and the comments about the players being lazy. I think they maybe were slightly miscommunicated by Emery. Maybe it's an English-Spanish translation issue, but they haven't helped. So maybe this can help a fresh start draw a line and give them something to start with again. And finally, it does make me wonder if Monchi's carrying the can now for the sort of transfer mess that they're in, which may not be fair, but maybe this is a chance to move on.

29:44well Martin that's what I was going to ask you about I mean Monchi came in as a self-reputation as a transfer guru done a lot of good work at Sevilla he was working with some constraints you know one of your favourite subjects of dropping sustainability regulations I'm not going to mess the sewing though there because everyone knows what I think but what I would say about Monchi is that this is the first sign of well not necessarily the first sign but it is certainly a sign of this change in relationship because I always used to say when the director of football idea was first becoming prevalent, you know, it was terribly unfair because the manager had, you know, the director of football was like, judge me in eight years and the manager was always, you know, he's got five matches, turn it around or whatever, you know, and the guy behind him was going, oh, yes, you know, in eight years time, you'll see the work that we've been doing with the under-15s.

30:46And, you know, in the meantime, if the manager doesn't win on Saturday, he's out. And this looked to me like one of the first times where they've gone, no, we're blaming the director of football. The director of football's going to be carried a can for this one. And they've stuck with the manager and the director of football has got the bums lost, so to speak. Yeah, the PSR thing is, you know, you know what I think about it. And I think part of the reaction to Paul Assar, part of the movement against it, is caused by the fact that the teams that seem to be massively affected by it are those that have dared to challenge the hierarchy and the established elite in English football.

31:32Teams like Leicester and Aston Villa have, you know, we've all looked to that in Nottingham Forest to some extent. we've all looked at oh this is great these teams are challenging and then within two years someone's relegated and someone else can't buy any players what I would say is that what you hear about Aston Villa is that one of their biggest problems with PSO is to do with the wages and that there is a lot more to recruitment and transferring to go we can all buy players if all you ever do is say yes you know as a director or chairman of a football club said to me the other day, anyone can get a deal done, is if all you do is say yes.

32:14You know, sometimes you've got to go, well, no, we can't give you that. No, you know. Aston Villa's wages apparently are one of their bigger problems with PSR and there's been a lot of saying yes. And that gets them into where they are now, which again, we're getting back to the sort of taking your shirt off or whatever because I don't agree with the rule. but the rule is in place so you know I don't agree with the rule I don't think it's fair but at the same time if you know what the rules are and you've given salaries out that mean you can't abide by the rules it's a little bit on you We're kind of back to football matters then how do we see Villa emerging from the start?

33:01Do we feel that they're going to turn it around? You know Emery's had a great body of work in these three years at the club there this is very surprising given all despite all of the context we've just laid out there Unai Emery is the football club at the moment and there's a certain trust among Villa fans I'm going to quote my next door neighbour Mike who does listen to this podcast hello Mike he's a Villa fan and he was telling me you know how he thinks this is a bit of a master plan by Emery this season because he's recognised it's a rebuilding season and he's going to target Europe and you know sort of be sparing in the Premier League oh right it's a master plan nice one Mike no man I'm getting really good to be fair Mike it's the kind of thing Unai Emery has done throughout his career though isn't it so yeah I think it's going to be I think it's going to be a really difficult season for them but if if they can keep him happy you know he will Unai will lead them through this without a doubt I found I mean I don't know what you think Greg I did find those comments lost in translation or not quite extreme and he seems to be a manager who demands utter intensity from his players at all times and when there's a slippage gets very very angry about that.

34:30I remember him going potty about Martinez when he went up for the corner against I think it was Arsenal a few years ago and he hates those little drops in standards I just wonder how if there's a danger to them it's the players maybe tiring or rebelling against a message they've been hearing for a couple of years but I mean someone called you lazy what would you be thinking or did it happen every week you wouldn't be that happy about it would you know I mean that's true but you're right in also saying that his sort of power is so like the status and and everything, here's the football club. The football club has been built around him, so you wouldn't be too wise to be thrown in the towel.

35:11Not that players ever do that, but even subconsciously think, you know, this guy's going down a dangerous path because it's his path, and you're probably the one who would lose out there. It is one of those methods, though, that if the results aren't coming, then it becomes a much harder method to bring people along with you. I can remember watching Emery's Villarreal team against Chelsea in the Euratole Super League final in Belfast. And you're looking at them and you're thinking, are you going to let any of these players make any decision? at any point in this match without screaming at somebody to do something.

36:05You know, there was nothing that could happen where he wasn't shouting and screaming and thinking, gee whiz, this would get really wearing after a while unless you were winning every single week. You know, you'd get really fed up with this. That's your worry about it, that maybe the message is beginning to, who, as John said, sort of wear a bit thin. Against that, they've considered as many goals as Liverpool. They've got the same goals against as Liverpool. So, you've got, you know, and I know people aren't holding Liverpool's defence up as the greatest thing since last year, but you've got something to build on there.

36:46You know, they're down the bottom. They haven't got West Ham's goals against or Wolves' goals against. You're looking at it and thinking, well that is a relegation total if you don't sort that out you will get relegated if you keep conceding as many goals as that because that is not just nothing what are they 13 in 5 matches or something like that you know you're looking at thinking you're on the way to Swindon Town basically so whereas whereas I think Aston Villa is 5 goal I think it's as many as Liverpool I spotted that the other day noticed that the other day and you think right well you have something to build on there well Master Villa host Bologna on Thursday night in the Europa League kicking off their European campaign and then they host Fulham in the Premier League at the weekend so we will see how that goes that was a good link Johnny to something we spoke beforehand that you were writing about this weekend and perhaps a good way of going into this final topic about well you're writing about managers who may be slightly over controlling and with a reference to Arteta maybe we can talk about that first and then we'll talk about how fascinating the game was at the weekend between Arsenal and City for many reasons one of which is the way Pep Guardiola approached it Yeah I mean I think the subject is in really sharp focus at the moment because of I think the real divide in coaching isn't necessarily these days or maybe it's always been this way it's not so much tactics and formations per se, or even whether you want to be possession heavy or whether you want to counterattack.

38:28I think a lot of it comes down to autonomy or authorship, as in how much does a coach feel that they should and can control, and how much freedom are they willing to give players. And it seems to me that Arteta is right at the front of that at the moment, especially after signing a player with the flair and individualism and in the moment creativity as Eze. And then struggling immediately to fit this player into what's a very prescribed system, a system that, yes, he learnt under Pep Guardiola, but has actually always taken to, I think, more extremes in Guardiola in terms of rigidity and structure.

39:16and you talk about Emery being on the touchline screaming at players. That's exactly what you see from Arteta. I think, you know, there were also the footage of him against Bilbao just yelling at Eze to get back and stand in this little spot on the touchline, stop drifting inside, you know, which is what Eze has done his whole career, which is what he wants to do. I just think there's a lot of ways in which football is becoming very mechanical. I've written about this before. Style of play, but also maybe the way players are expected to live and every moment of their lives is now controlled, diet and sleep and blah, blah, blah.

39:59And then on the pitch, some coaches want to control every movement they make. Everything's a plan. And Martin wrote brilliantly about Arteta and his comment about starters and finishers because, you know, he keeps he puts Eze on the bench, right? Because he doesn't trust them to play against a weakened man City side, by the way. Against a City side that we all look at at the moment and think, this is the time for playing Manchester City. This is the time. In fact, he beat them 5-0 anyway last time. And this is the moment to impose yourself. But he can't trust Eze. He then brings him off the bench to sort of repair his mistake.

40:43Eze wins or wins the point for them with a very un-Arteta-like piece of play. He just goes and decides to be Eze in that moment. And then Arteta comes out and says, oh yeah, my finishers did the job as if it was still all his plan. And I just think that typifies the type of coach who wants to be seen to be the author of everything. And for me and maybe this is being a little bit old or this is maybe growing up on Fergie's Aberdeen or whatever and coming into the Premier League as a reporter at the time you had Wenger and Ferguson and blah blah blah it just seemed to me that there's a different style of coaching Ancelotti still embodies it where you allow the players to be the authors of the game in key moments so you have to have structure but when there's talent on the pitch you allow them, you allow that talent to make its own decisions at times.

41:37And because these guys are there and more talented perhaps than you are, and certainly are better placed to make those decisions than you standing on the touchline saying move there, move there, move there. So I find it fascinating at the moment and I'm trying to delve into all of that with regards to Arsenal. I think it's a great topic because you look at, what is the point of buying a player like Eze and then telling him how to play football and, right, you must do this and you must do that. And as far as his finishers were concerned, now that we know that Madu Eke is out for two months, those two half-time substitutions don't look quite like the genius move or whatever everyone said they were, because one of them was a gozer out for two months.

42:26So one of them was completely enforced. so it's one finisher really and the other is a battlefield promotion because of an injury you look at that and it was a wasted opportunity it was a massively wasted opportunity I don't know what anyone says you know and you can look it and go you know but a point against Manchester City is never a bad result yeah you used to say that about Manchester United but it is now if you're chasing the title and you play Manchester United, you wouldn't be happy with just a draw. You wouldn't because they're not the same team. City are not quite the same team at the moment.

43:08You know, they're a team that can't get past Tottenham and Brighton. So if you're Arsenal, and as John says, you've beaten them 5-0 the last time, why would you suddenly be happy with an injury time equaliser at home? It didn't make any sense to me. And the starters, finishing stuff is pick your best team. Pick your best team. I mean, the Ryder Cup is on this weekend. One of the biggest mistakes ever made at a Ryder Cup was, I think it was Curtis Strange, might have been another American captain, but when he backloaded the team as opposed to frontloading the team. So they'd already shaken hands by the time Tiger Woods was coming down the 13th or something like that.

43:59It was ridiculous. You know, the trick is to get your best team out there. Get a start. You've got to get a start. It's not rugby where, you know, Lazio Erasmus can bring these great big guys on and smash the living daylights out of a team in the last 20 minutes. It's not the same sport. It's not the same sport. You say it's not like rugby. I'm actually writing about kick-offs this week and they're becoming more like Rumpel. No, but that's also part of the same thing. I'm wondering, it does feel like football, you know, tactically and, you know, the whole approach, like it's in a moment of flux.

44:36We would never, you know, we spoke about this on Monday, but it feels like something worth returning to. We would never have seen Pep Guardiola approach a football match like that at any point in history. It was remarkable, really, to see him play, set up his team to have 33%. There might have been moments, you know, context, scoring early, we'd to hold on to injuries. He wouldn't have done it at 0-0, do you not think? He wouldn't have played like that at 0-0. No, and I think that's right. What's interesting when you have re-watched the game, when you look at it again, when Arsenal equalise, City then go and dominate the last six minutes, which tells you that it was a pose that they were adopting to try and manage the game and get that point.

45:16But they used to manage the game with the ball. Well, but they can't. And maybe this also goes to the point of a coach's dogma and control. I would applaud Guardiola for saying, you know what? If we try and play exactly the same positional game that Arsenal play, that I've helped teach Michael Arteta, but they've got better players, there's only going to be one outcome. So we're going to play in a different way. And he spoke at his press conference this week about how I have things that I didn't have before and I love them. and I think what he's talking about is his counter-attacking weaponry.

45:51He's talking about having Reinders and Haaland as a combination, so why not use it? I quite like the way that he's trying to build the game now around his best player, Haaland. That seems to me to be a pretty sensible thing to do and it's putting a player's attributes first. I don't think Guardiola is going to play this way every week, but why not in a one-off situation I mean he very nearly got his victory with a team that just played the third game in a week and I do find the argument that it was an amazing performance by Arsenal seems to rest upon we made Manchester City do something that we humbled them, we made them cower and have 33 % possession but maybe Man City wanted to play like that to an extent and maybe the fact that Brighton beat Man City and Crystal Palace beat Man City and Al Ain or whoever it was beat Man City maybe that humbled them a bit more than getting a draw do you know what I mean?

46:55Is the fact that he wanted to do that almost a tacit admission that the brand of football that's been sort of supreme for most of the past two decades is maybe no more? I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing in the world that you don't quite know how Manchester City are going to play against you. I don't think they would have played quite like that had it been goalless. You know, I think scoring early. And then I thought they played very well in the first half. And then it became more entrenched and much more of a war of attrition. But I don't know. I was watching Chelsea the other day and seeing how much they struggle if the centre forward, the opposition centre forward, picks up the deep line midfield.

47:54And they really struggle with that. So you think, right, you've got to have a way around that then, haven't you? Because otherwise, if Lincoln City can work that out, then everyone's going to work that out. That if you put someone on that guy that sits at the base of that Chelsea midfield, they struggle to get out. So you've got to have that second plan. And it might be to go more direct. It might be to, you know, avoid that layer of the pitch. Yeah. Yeah. And everything, you know, football's, without saying anything original, football goes in cycles, right? And everything's a response. Attack is always a response to defence, et cetera, et cetera.

48:32So I think generally, yes, Gregor, we are seeing, a move away from this era of pure positional football that has held sway that Guardiola expressed so brilliantly because we've seen a return to man-to-man marking, which then makes it very difficult. And Martin gives that example of when your players are actually picked up. No point of positional football is to get in between the lines and get in the spaces in between the opposition's defensive zone. But if they're man-to-man, you can't do that. So we are seeing people doing different things to get around it. There's a return to chaos moments. I think, you know, Klopp and his lot, I mean, the counter-pressing coaches, they always created chaos off the ball with pressing.

49:18But we're seeing tactics now that are based on creating chaos with the ball, whether that's a long throw, whether that's a kick-off, whether that's a punt up the field. Coaches are trying these things, and it's fascinating that Guardiola's embracing this and seeing where it takes him. And it's equally fascinating that two of his disciples, Maresca and Arteta, aren't there yet, which maybe Pep's seen something ahead of the game that they haven't. But yeah, it's in a bit of flux. I don't think we're going to go back to, you know, 1990s Bartley's Men, hoofball, whatever you want to call it, broken games.

50:01I quite enjoyed some of that. Growing the grass in the corner flags. Yeah, exactly. But you might go back to, if you remember when Greece won the 2024 European Championships and very horrible, came in and that was man for man marking.

50:23Back three, two cent at halves in a spare and all of this. and it was all things that no one had been doing for a long long time and i can remember france playing against him you got terry on rey but terry and rey had never been man marked in his life really you know that wasn't the start at the time to go right wherever this guy goes if he nips off to go to the toilet you you know you go with him basically and and that's what was happening and that's what Greece were doing and they won the European Championships and you look to that and thought that was really interesting that this guy came in with this playbook of just stuff that hadn't been used for about 20 odd years and no one knew took people by surprise with it really I think it's quite interesting Fascinating to see how Pep Guardiola's team continues to evolve we should say that they had 75 % of the ball against Huddersfield in midweek so no he's not he's not doing it against League One opposition Johnny Martin been great to have you we'll be back on Monday to analyse the best of the weekend's action see you then