Who would you pick in the England Squad?

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1:07Gregor Robertson: Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. England lost to Japan in their final friendly before Thomas Tuchel names his squad for the World Cup this summer. But hey, it could be much, much worse as four-time winners Italy proved crashing out in the playoffs for the third tournament in a row. We'll be discussing what has gone wrong in Italian football, debating the winners and losers of a disappointing England camp and picking who we think should be on the plane to America in just over two months' time. Plus, with seven games to save Tottenham's season, we'll be discussing if Roberto De Zerbe is the right man to keep Spurs in the Premier League.

1:40Gregor Robertson: I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today, we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, and the former Ireland, Chelsea and Marseille striker and Times columnist, Tony Cascarino. Good to have you guys. Hiya, you're right. England 0-Japan 1. Yes. another classic another cracker Martin's column from the game carried the headline disturbing defeat could end some England careers but reinvigorate others I think that's possibly a signal towards the fact that there was no Harry Kane no Declan Rice no Jude Bellingham it was a good night for the guys who were either on the bench or watching from their sofas I mean the best players on the field were the ones who weren't there certainly it's best for them yeah in terms of ending some careers you look at this and think that could be the last we see of Phil Foden in an England shirt maybe for a while and it was always going to be you know when he picked 35 players it was always going to be at the end of it you know you can't take 35 to a World Cup so there were always going to be a list of players a short list of players at the end of this that you're thinking right well that's that's the end of the road for this guy So they did a false name of course after Harry King And the Force 9, I mean, how much of a real Force 9, you know, a lot of the time it just looked like four forwards strung across, in a line across the park, more than a conventional Force 9.

3:08And again, that, you know, that didn't really work. But then how much time, you know, are you going to give yourself to work on that? You know, the Force 9 thing, if that's how we would like to play if we didn't have Harry Kane, I think we need to start working on that a lot earlier than we have. I mean, that's part of the problem. I believe in it as a system, as an alternate system. I do believe in it. But I think we're maybe starting on it almost too late there. And you should almost maybe have spent the whole week working on that, which I doubt very much if we did, looking at the formation we played against Uruguay.

3:51You know, you look at that and think, how many training sessions what would we have had to work on that

3:56Gregor Robertson: Just on Foden then like specifically Tuchel's kind of admitted there's a strong possibility in the aftermath of this match that Foden doesn't there's a decision to make whether he goes at all he's not he's not showing what he does in training in games and he never has you can see he likes him as a player he rates him as a player you wrote you wrote last week that this is a kind of crying shame he's one of yeah I genuinely think it is I genuinely think it is. Is it even controversial now if he doesn't go? No, I don't think it is because he's not playing well enough for England to justify that. So, you know, in that respect, I think, you know, to use your phrase, mate, two things can be true.

4:37I love it. One is that it is a great shame that we can't seem to convert Phil Foden to the player that we believe him to be. And the other thing that can also be true is Phil Foden hasn't put in a performance for England for quite some time that would justify him being part of the World Cup squad. Agree, Cass? Yeah, I feel we're all gutted for the lad because, you know, how long ago was it? Two years ago, the Football Writers Player of the Year? Yeah. I was there. I think you were there, Mike. Yeah, I was there. And he deserved it. You know, looked like the world was at his feet. Sort of the end of Kevin De Bruyne was happening at Man City and Phil looked like the absolute perfect player to step in.

5:22And it's been a rollercoaster ride for him, a rough ride, if anything. And he's lost form this season. He's been in and out of Manchester City team. It sort of mimics a little bit of what's happened to Jack Grealish where, you know, he started to get left out regularly at Man City and ends up moving away, losing his England place. And Phil's gone down that same road, it feels like, this year. And you look at his goals for, you know, the amount that he scored this year, and not in comparison the goal record for England isn't particularly good. And I felt sorry for him playing the Force 9 because it just, as Martin touched on, it just, look, I'll just take the game as watching it.

5:59It looked like one team were organised in Japan and England weren't. Right? England tried a lot of things in the two games. Draw, lose to Japan. You look at Japan, they go to Scotland, they win, and they go to England and win. You know, everyone's talking about how our first Asian team to win, but they've got the Scotland and won a few days earlier. And by the way, over the last five years, they beat Germany twice. I was at the World Cup in Qatar.

6:22Gregor Robertson: Drew with Spain. Yeah, 2-1, Germany. Drew with Spain. Beat Germany 4-1 as well afterwards. You know, this is a team that clearly knows exactly what they're about and what they need to do in games. They're attacking. They were, to me, it was like watching a team that had worked together and you could see how much it functions well with Japan against a team we're trying stuff. Does that underline the kind of feeling that this was like a bit kind of an unnecessary over-experimentation. It's almost like a wasted opportunity in this last two weeks. Taking a backward step instead of getting a kind of organised.

6:55But do you not think, Greg, the wasted opportunity is in the 12 months before? You know, because in the end, what we end up doing is experimenting. And this is our last couple of games here. I know we had, you know, this should have been, And if you want to try with false nines or whatever, it should have been done earlier, much earlier than this. Sorry, Tony, just to make a point. You're in 96, Terry Venables. And I always went, but, you know, I was very, very close around that whole situation. 1994 is when he works out the Christmas tree. 1994. So two years before the tournament. and he said to me, we could change to that formation and that system.

7:43We just need two training sessions. Well, if Force 9 is going to be our way, that's where you should be with that now. That's where you should be with it. You should be, right, all we need is two sessions and we can play Force 9 if we need to. Instead, we don't even know what a Force 9 would be. Or the hurricane backup. No. Can I just add on that? If I go back from my own experiences, if you take World Cup 94, Brazil had experimented with Dunga as a holding midfielder, as a different type of way of playing. And the way they would attempt to win a World Cup, they won it. And it wasn't the way the Brazilian public wanted it, by the way.

8:23They didn't like the Brazilian team playing with a defensive midfielder that kept the ball. But they won the World Cup. They had some great players anyway, as they always do. I sat next to Emi Zaki in the Nancy dressing room. His son was a player. He was in the youth system. And I sat down to him and we started talking. And he started to talk through the 98 team. And he said, well, our old identity is based on Maradona as the best number 10 in the world in 86. He said, we got the best number 10 in the world, which is Zidane. He said, the objective is that Zidane can get in positions on the ball.

8:58The team will be surrounded by players that make Zidane the player to shine. And they won the World Cup. so it goes back to this Terry Venables idea of how long that preparation by the way there were some you know real difficult moments along the way prior to the World Cup 98 if you look at France's some of the results their L 'Equipe were wanting Emi Jacqui out three months before the tournament started I should also say

9:23Gregor Robertson: England have had this in recent tournaments as well I heard of recent tournaments losing games and looking under Gava Southgate but you must know mine's made it's not the result necessarily, it's the performance. It's the performance. The performance is important. We had it with Ireland. The reason why we made the quarterfinals of the World Cup ever is because there were tough decisions to make, but Jack really believed the way he wanted to play, these were the best players for it. So going back to Martin's point of if you're going to play a false number nine, well, England aren't going to play a false number nine.

9:54So it's nonsense, really, because it's going to be Kane. He's not going to play a false number nine, is he? No. So the idea of an alternative product, well, you're never going to use that. If Kane's fit, you're never using the false number nine. So it's a complete waste of time.

10:07Gregor Robertson: You need to know what you're going to do when Kane's not fit. There's still no answer to that. Gregor, do you really think that I'm not saying you, but does anyone really think that if Kane got injured, the false number nine would be Phil Foden? Really? No, it felt like he wanted that to be true or possible. Yeah, he wanted that to be sure. He wanted that to be sure. But now he's accepting that it's not going to happen. And it's not against Phil Foden because I felt sorry for the lad because you want to see Phil Foden be in his position that he can shine and do his best plays best football and that is certainly not a false nine.

10:39I don't understand. Well, the other thing I don't understand is why the guy that he saw as the false nine is Foden as opposed to say Palmer as opposed to Bellingham. Now, obviously the other night Bellingham's not fit, but Bellingham has played in that role for Real Madrid and yet when Tuka has been asked about this he's always said Bellingham is number 10 surely the guy that could be the 9 is Bellingham because one he's played it with Real Madrid two in terms of his physicality he's a lot nearer to Harry Kane than Phil Foden is I mean you could almost because I think he would be talented enough to do it you could almost say that Bellingham played back to goal Do you know why players false number 9 if I had to say false who could play the number nine role if he didn't.

11:29Madiwaki. Yeah, yeah. Madiwaki's direct. He runs channels, he'll go in behind and I think that he, if anybody you'd want to try in that position would be Madiwaki. Not anybody else, not Foden, not Palmer, Bellingham. I look at Madiwaki as a type of striker. He makes runs always in channels and always behind people and he tries to go behind people.

11:51Gregor Robertson: So obviously, look, it's been a disappointing camp. Has there been any positives that stood out for you, Martin, first of all? I thought Alan Anderson played well in the Japan game. I thought he played well. I thought Spence did all right against Uruguay. I think he came into a good game. There were individual performances, the odd individual performance that I liked. I just thought we... It wasn't just things like that. There were other things as well. The Ben White selection, I thought, was strange because it started an argument. You don't need to start. It started a sort of a disconnection with the fans that doesn't need to be there.

12:33I just, you know, we've got a lot of right fullbacks. We really have. And, you know, we've got Real Madrid's right fullback. Can't get near the squad. But, you know, we've got Jed Spence, we've got Liveramento. We've got, you know, Rhys James wasn't available at the moment, but we know we've got Rhys James to come. It was a fight you didn't need to have.

12:52Gregor Robertson: Cass, any other positives for you? James Garner? Yeah, Garner. I thought he'd done well. But that's James Garner. What he does for Everton week in, week out to me. He's not a nine out of ten every week, but he's always a seven and sometimes an eight. That's how I see Garner. I thought Maguire, when he came on, I thought Maguire showed again his leadership, his aerial threat. Look, England went, it was quite bizarre because they ended up playing quite direct at the end and they've got Dan Bernal and Maguire. We were talking about that earlier. The last 10 minutes was like back to the 90s. But it was actually causing problems.

13:28Gregor Robertson: It was the most effective England were in the whole game. Yeah, it was 2000 England, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sort of England type of performance. So we're going to the World Cup to be a set piece? No. I think there was very few positives. I thought England just looked like they were just too easy to play from. And the goal typified it. Okay, Luke, it's time to try and pick our squad. We've all picked our 26-man squad. who we think should be on the plane. There's a piece on the Times website just now as well by Jonathan Northcroft where he picks what he believes is Tuchel's likely World Cup squad and then his squad afterwards.

14:07Gregor Robertson: So we thought we'd join in as well. So let's start with the goalkeepers. And I think we're all, it's a clean slate. Pickford, Henderson, Trafford on the plane. Not even close for a jump. Okay, on to fullbacks then. Martin, first of all, who have you got at fullback? I've got... I've got three right backs, which is Rhys James, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Jed Spence. And I've got three left backs, which is O 'Reilly, Luke Shaw and Lewis Hall. And I will explain that I think that Rhys James could move into centre half if you needed him, could move into midfield if you needed him. And so Luke Shaw could also move into a centre-half position if you wanted it.

14:56So the reason I've got six is that I've got players there that could cover a midfield position and players there that could cover a centre-half position. And you'll see why in a minute. Gus? Well, I went for Rhys James, O 'Reilly, Hall, Liveramento, and also added in Dan Byrne because I think Dan Byrne could easily play the left-back position if called upon. gone five I've left out Trent and I if I was still knowing I've got enough time I might even change on Trent along the way but as I stand today no but there is a big part of me I think have I made a mistake with leaving out Trent

15:32Gregor Robertson: well it's a bad start for a combined 11 for the game podcast yeah because Cass has got Hall and Livermanto who you don't have and I don't have I've got James Alexander-Arnold O 'Reilly Jed Spence is the sort of utility auxiliary right or left back and Luke Shaw because I think like when you're looking England have always been blessed with we think with full backs for a long time and that's kind of sewed up part of the team but now suddenly I'm not so sure Luke Shaw's very experienced been a lot of tournaments James is questionable with his fitness records and so the other thing is you always know and you know I don't think there's a scientific scientific evidence of this but you can you can always guarantee if you leave yourself weak in any position that's the position and get the injuries, the suspensions or whatever.

16:19So I like the idea of having a couple of fullbacks that can also play in other roles, whether that's midfield or whether that's centre-half. And I was surprised that Luke Shaw was left out of this squad. And I don't think that will bear any relation to who will go for England. OK, centre-half? Centre-half, yeah. A little closer to consensus here. Well, this is why, you know, I've got lots of cover because I've got John Stones, Harry Maguire, Mark Gwehe and I've put down, and this is in the faintest of pencil because he's been injured for so long, but Levi Colwell, if he was fit, I think Levi Colwell is a good centre-half.

17:04I think Chelsea... Will he be fit? Well, he's back in training now, isn't he? They think he'll be back before the end of the season.

17:14Gregor Robertson: How many games would he need? Yeah, that's the... Well, how many games did Karl Walker have before Mbappe? Not that many. Maybe did Luke Shaw have before the last year. Yeah, exactly. So I just think that he's... I think he's the best centre-half at Chelsea. No Trevor Chalaba? He's also injured by his six weeks, so he'll be back for the end of the season. I think Tuchel rated him above Maguire. Above Maguire, which I was surprised by. I mean, look, Konza as well. I mean I've I've taken Konza out to get Carl Williams because I think I like Carl Williams more but that's potentially 10 defenders and I believe before the last Euros you picked a 4-1-4-1 yeah you wanted all yeah I did I wanted all the midfield players looking forward to your forwards yeah I picked Konza Gay Maguire and Byrne because I thought you know he could play no stones then No stones.

18:12No, he's played eight games since the end of October. And I just look at John. If John was fit everywhere, I'd absolutely select him. But I just feel like there's going to be another injury.

18:24Gregor Robertson: Yeah. And then another injury after that. And England have been so guilty of taking injured players. I go back to the 82 World Cup. I go back a long way. I went to a game. I remember Brookings and Keegan coming on, who've clearly not been fit, right? And you're taking players that are not fit. And they're not the only ones. There's others along the way where England have taken players that haven't been up to speed. Caldwell's a tough one because he's not just missed football. He's missed a hell of a lot of football. And Harry comes back. But could he get his fitness right before he goes and then actually in the group stages get absolutely 100 % match fit?

19:01It's a tough one. I've probably gone one centre-half, two less. But again, like Martin said, you can play James in the centre-half position if need be.

19:08Gregor Robertson: Okay. Well, I've got Gehe, Consa, Maguire and Stones. I think Stones, if he's fit, he's got a lot of experience and he's been one of England's best players for numerous tournaments. So I'd go with them. Let's go on to midfielders now, central midfielders. Right, so what we're talking about is the two that are sitting in front of the back four, basically. So I've got Declan Myers, Elliot Anderson, Garner and Wharton. Same. Well, you've done exactly the same. I have gone Garner, Rice, Anderson and Archie Gray. Archie Gray? Yeah. Okay, tell us why. Every time I go to Tottenham, he's been their best player.

19:47Absolutely. I mean, he's easily been Tottenham's best player this season. I mean, not that that's anything to shout about because Tottenham have been awful, but Archie Gray, he covers ground brilliantly. He wants the ball and he keeps it. He keeps it really well, Archie Gray. I was surprised how much he's improved when I first saw him at Leeds even in a team that he's played everywhere he played full back he could play at the back I just want to mention one player as well that you can play centre half and I always see him as the same as McGrath is Declan Rice if you ever need to put him in the back put him in the back because he could do it in half

20:21Gregor Robertson: he could play anywhere that's his problem yeah exactly but I've gone I put Garner in there because I just feel does that underline we were talking about this earlier does that underline that this is a bit of a problem area behind Anderson has emerged Enormously in the last Six, eight months Anderson and Rice are easy They're the They're the But after that No one here has picked Kobe Maino And he just played In the last game Garner's played One game He played pretty well Against UY But now he seems like A shoo-in People are uncertain About whether Wharton Is going to be selected There's a bit of a I don't know if Wharton gets picked Yeah So there's a problem area For Tuchel Well it's Potentially Clearly it is Because he doesn't feel It's that obvious You've had people Who have actually He's come in and done very little, like Garner.

21:03He's come in and not played a lot of time in an England shirt, but he's jumped in the head of the queue of others, in my opinion. There's a name here that none of us around the table have mentioned that is definitely going to the World Cup, which is Jordan Henson. Yeah, indeed. Indeed, for the vibes. For vibes. Well, not just for vibes. I mean, that's somewhat disrespectful.

21:22Gregor Robertson: No, but there was a moment in the Eurobike, Wayne, where Valverde accelerated away from him in the middle of the pitch. And it was like, oh, yeah, he's a parachute. Well then could you say that with Mainu for the goal when he's 22 where they scored against Japan where Yeah Okay let's what about number 10s in front of them Right well the three forwards I'm going to do it as the three forwards Well let's go for wingers first Go for wingers first You want wingers first Yeah but see he's really very flexible Well I'll start I'll start Saka and Madueke are the two options on the right Rashford and Gordon are the two on the left Yeah, well, I've got all those four there, so I'll go with that.

22:01Okay. Absolutely. I've gone Rashford, Saka, Madawakey, Gordon, and thrown in Bowen because I think he's just such a different type of all the others. Okay. I can see that. The only other thing you do, and I haven't got his name down because I've always – I believe in taking him, but I believe in just taking him. I'm not sure you'd put him in the squad yet, but I'd put Downman on the plane. Yeah. You'd put Downman on? I'd put Downman on the plane. I'm not saying I'd name him in the squad. I'd put Dalman on the plane to work with the players because I think he's the future.

22:35Gregor Robertson: Did you see his goal against Spillers? Honestly, I mean, Gregor, when you said the squad, and again, it's a bit like Trent where I'd rethink because Dalman is such a... I've always said to people, some friends, Arsenal friends, and I said to him, I know one day I'm going to mention Dalman that I was at the game where he scored his first goal. Yeah, absolutely. Because it was, literally, his performance in that 20 minutes was by far the biggest thing that happened in the game. Has he started a Premier League game yet? No. No. No. I didn't start having the squad. I said I put him in the squad. I get it.

23:11Okay, so he's a training player

23:12Gregor Robertson: like Jason Steele and go. Yeah. Just to try and, you know, get him into the group. But, this is, we're now talking on the first or second of April. I don't know when we've got to name the squad. He might play by four then. We'll see what happens in the next two months you don't know because I tell you what we didn't have the other night we didn't have a single player in that team who played like him like with the freedom that Max Hellman is playing with at the moment and you know it's almost like how can we knock this out of him you said in your column which was very fair I thought that Cole Palmer although he didn't have a good game was the one player who did actually try and do it he was trying stuff all the time so you got to give him the grace of he'll lose the ball sometimes but he's trying to do things that no one else was it wasn't coming off Can I just add?

23:56I remember doing a training session, 17-year-olds, two of them, Robbie Keane, Damien Duff, Republic of Ireland. We all got in the dressing room after the training session. I looked at Quinny and went, we ain't going to last long, are we, Quinny? Them two were just fighting because Damien was scaring the life out of people. Just getting it. I like to say it a bit like Damien, just running at people and just going past them, skipping past them. And it wasn't long before they were actually firm fixtures in the Ireland scene. That's Ireland. you know Robbie became what he did at Ireland's top goal scorer we've had that conversation I'm sure in the Arsenal dressing room when they are there between the passes saying he's going to be some player as much as everyone wants to downplay it

24:36Gregor Robertson: maybe Saka and Madureki don't need them looking over the shoulder but this is the thing and it's interesting I was talking you know a man who knows a man or whatever who's got one of his lads is in the academy at Arsenal He's roughly the same age as Downman, obviously not on the same trajectory because it's an exceptional trajectory. And his lad says, you know, come home and they might be training on the pitch next door or whatever to the first team. And Downman is there up against, you know, the defenders that we think are the best in the league at the moment and absolutely just flying past them, flying past them, you know, in training.

25:21He said, you know, the guys that used to play with him were all looking at him over there going, can you see what he's doing? Can you see who has just gone past? Clive Woodward said that when Johnny Wilkinson came into the England team, it completely changed. It was one of the moments that accelerated that squad that went on to win the World Cup because suddenly this young player comes in, And this young fly-off comes in and suddenly the level had to go up because his level that he brought in and the intensity he brought in and everything that he brought in there was so high that all of these much more experienced players suddenly had to go, all right, stand to attention.

26:05Hold up, we've got to compete with this one now. You know, I don't know. I think it will be good to have him go out. Interesting. Number 10s? Oh, right. Okay. Number 10s. Well, I've written down Bellingham, Rogers, Eze, Palmer. See him. Snap. Yeah. Palmer, Rogers, Bellingham, Eze. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yes. I've got one more. I've got one more. I've got one more. Because you've been all strikers, have you? Go on. Because I'm very light on strikers. I've got Gibbs White in there. Although Gibbs White will be the guy that dropped out if Colwell became, you know. So I've got actually, that's 27 players.

26:43One of them is Colwell. I'm having Trent if you're worried I'm having a 27 yeah can I have a 28th

26:50Gregor Robertson: yeah I will and Gibbs White so up front Cass Watkins and Kane really I'm the same and you obviously just got Kane Kane yeah just Kane okay I don't think we've got we definitely haven't got consensus Cass you've got quite a few curveballs there including Dan Byrne but actually as Johnny pointed out in his piece he thinks Dan Byrne will probably go and it's partly because of the same thing it's like he's a good character in the squad I think Anthony Barry knows him quite well from the Wigan days yeah like and he's someone who can throw on in the last 10 minutes I mean yeah that is the thing but I mean good character it's always I'm sure I've told this story on there before the Roy Hodgson story about who do you like Mike Kelly you know pick four guys you like yeah the chemistry's important they're all away for a long time together you know because those don't you know if you say you've got your three goalkeepers back then it was a squad of 23 yeah I said it was always He was like 19 to 23.

27:45He's the ones that you're sort of tearing your hair out. And Mike Kelly said to him, are they going to play? And so I went, well, probably not. No, you use about 16 players in the World Cup. What's the statistics say you lose? He said, so Mike Kelly went, so pick four you like. He said, and I thought it was the most unprofessional thing I'd ever heard. He said, but actually. It works. He's dead right. He's dead right because those guys probably won't play. But they know they won't play. So you need guys that are going to be good tourists. So that's where you can see Jordan Henderson from that point of view, because he's a great tourist, everyone says it.

28:22He's really good to have around. I just think, could you not have him as part of the backroom staff rather than having to use one of your squad places? But that's another day.

28:36Gregor Robertson: Good luck, Tommy Tuchel. As I say, you can read Johnny Northcroft's attempt to picking a 26-man squad on the Times website just now. I'll try and cobble that together and see if we can actually get a definitive game podcast. Yeah. We've still got some time as well, haven't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, time for a break, which means time for quiz time. From Bill Eggers, quiz on the website right now. It's FA Cup themed, FA Cup this weekend, but with an international twist, this question. All right. You ready? Yeah. Who made one FA Cup appearance for West Ham in 2012 and one for Leeds United in 2015 during his two brief spells in English football.

29:12Gregor Robertson: Don't worry, I'm going to give you four options. Was it Brian Macedonia, Brian Slovenia, Brian Montenegro or Brian Croatia? Find out after the break.

29:32That new thing? Yeah, we've got it. The Drop by GNC, bringing you all the newness that matters. handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day, The Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first. Nonstop innovation and fresh finds daily. Explore what's new and what's next on The Drop by GNC. Hi, this is Dave Musial, owner of Four Seasons Heating, Air Conditioning, Plumbing and Electric. When emergencies happen, who do you call?

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30:25Gregor Robertson: For all the right reasons, call 866-FOUR-SEASONS. Hi, this is Dave Musial, owner of Four Seasons Heating, Air Conditioning, Plumbing, and Electric. and I want to guarantee you a breakdown-free winner. Did you know that a dirty furnace costs more to operate and can lead to higher utility bills and untimely breakdowns? Now is the time to schedule your Four Seasons Furnace Tune-Up and save$50. A Four Seasons Furnace Tune-Up includes a 35-point inspection, complete cleaning, and we calibrate every component of your furnace. So call today. For all the right reasons, call 866-FOUR-SEASONS.

31:09Gregor Robertson: Welcome back to the Game Podcast from the Times I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Martin Samuel and Tony Cascarino Before the break I asked a quiz question devilishly difficult quiz question A player named Brian Macedonia, Brian Slovenia, Brian Montenegro or Brian Croatia which one played once for West Ham and the FA Cup and once for Leeds? The answer Martin is He's Brian Montenegro Brian Montenegro I mean this is a new one on me but thank you Bill So he played most of his career in his native Paraguay, apparently. But do you remember this guy? I can't say that I do. I can't say, unless that was multiple choice, that would have been five, ten minutes of silence.

31:47Okay, okay. Thanks for that one, Bill. Okay. Probably the only name it could be, isn't it? Because it's going to translate as Black Mountain, isn't it? Is that right? Well, Montenegro would be Black Mountain, wouldn't it? Okay. Whereas the others are sort of very much country names, as opposed to, you know, names that might lend themselves to a South American surname. That's the kind of analysis you come to the game podcast for. There you go. You didn't think I knew it because I knew about football there, did you, by any chance?

32:17Gregor Robertson: Okay. On to Italy. Gazetta de la Sport called it the third apocalypse. My goodness. Team with more... What, you know? Oh, goodness. I mean, look, you know, I'm sorry. I mean, while we're on, you know, the etymology and things like that, you know, you're not going to really have three apocalypses. Well, they've had three. They've had three apocalypses. In the years of each other. It's the end of the world. They've had three. They're coming back from the end of the world, mate. Well, it ain't for Italian football at the moment. That's for sure. They've had three apocalypses because they've lost now to Sweden, North Macedonia, and now Bosnia and Herzegovina in the last three playoffs for the last three World Cups, Cass.

33:02Gregor Robertson: Yeah. Incredible. This is the nation who've won more World Cups than any other country in Europe for equal with West Germany and United Germany. What can you say? Like what's happened to Italian football? Well, straight away my fault was was sitting in my granddad's at the Elephant and Castle who's Italian, spoke very little English, watching the 1970 World Cup final and they got beat 4-1. He's going crazy at the Italians team and the team that got tomatoes thrown at them, by the way, when they got back to Italy. And then you've got Italy who can't qualify. And I kept thinking, well, my granddad would tap it.

33:36It's hell he'd have gone out the window. I'm astonished. I'm totally astonished. And look, you can look back and go, there is evidence, by the way, that this team has been in demise. It's a little bit, it's a reflection to Italian football, where you look at clubs like Juventus, who are, you know, a flagship of Italian football and others, AC Milan. and you now look at where they are today and you are pushed, Gregor even people that are in the game to pick the Italian 11 it's a real hard choice there was days when you'd go Beresi, Maldini you could name the Italian the starting 11 Baggio up front whoever you'd know it now it's it's on the Roma in goal okay, great the front two in this game

34:19Gregor Robertson: was Moyes Kane and Ritegi who was Argentinian essentially and because of their desperate need for a centre forward Converde plays in Saudi Arabia Barella is a good player Di Marco on the left but really you're right I mean they're not still good players but if you look at what they've had before and you can get nostalgic on how great Italian teams were but you also have to look at the Italian Serie A where some clubs don't have any Italian players, Como for example don't have in their start 11 any Italian players and it's not only Como, there are certain clubs in Italian football that have a low percentage of Italian players as well.

35:02So they have paid a heavy price for whatever they're doing through the system of Italian football, even at the younger levels, you're expecting this country to produce so many great talents. It's just not happening.

35:15Gregor Robertson: Yeah, Bastoni's red card obviously tilted the game. Did you see the penalties as well? Yeah. One thing, I know people say oh, penalties, they're brave enough to take them, but how can you hit the bar and hit one over in your first three penalties? You know, I was always said, low and hard, low and hard. Whatever you do, don't make it, you know. And to blast one over for your, was it the opening penalty, the one they blast over? I don't, you know, it's Italian football. It's been coming, hasn't it? Yeah. It's been coming. I can remember whenever it was. North Macedonia. No, not even that, but in the club football as well.

35:53I mean, I can remember Harry Redknapp going over there with Tottenham, that time when they nearly beat Inter Milan. The battle game. And then they came back and annihilated them at White Hart Lane. And then they played AC Milan. I think they won 1-0 out in Milan. Harry gets asked about this game and he said, well, you know, people are talking about it like it's a great shock or whatever. And he went, well, I'm not sure it is a great shock. He said, you know, AC Milan are the best team in Italy. What would I be in the Premier League? He said, about fourth, something like that. Well, the press room with the Italian journalists, like, you know, he'd put a bat up someone's nightshirt.

36:37It was like, you know, you'd never heard anything like it. It was like consternation, notebooks flying up in the air and all of this sort of stuff. But you looked at it and thought, no, you're about right, mate. That's exactly where they would be.

36:50Gregor Robertson: No team in the top 10 Deloitte's Money League as well No team in the Champions League Last 16 Was it? They didn't get anyone in the last 16 Atalanta went out in the last round Yeah They got battered didn't they Yeah that's it Atalanta were the only team they got through Byam beat them didn't they Atalanta were the only team that got through So were the big ones It's not the force it was when Tonali came to Newcastle wasn't Tonali the most expensive Italian export there'd been and you're looking at it thinking really they've never got more than 50 million quid for anybody it's part of this as well like about this kind of a shift in the way the game is played there's like so much high intensity you know the gig impressing that was like kind of dominant force and Italy Italian football is renowned for being at a much slower pace you know a lot of focus on defensive resolve and stuff and it's like slightly being left behind I would argue that you're seeing a real lack of actual talent, like technical brilliance.

37:56You know, look at someone like Baggio was a talent, an extraordinary talent. Then you look at the boy at Chelsea, the little guy. Zola. Zola. God, me head had gone there. Zola. Zola was a talent, you know, and they've had a number of them along the way. Vialli was a talent. And okay, he was a bit more of a leader and he'd lead the line brilliantly well, but he was still an Italian footballer that could make something happen in any moment. I don't see that now with any of them. Well, you look as well, when you think of this last England squad and tomorrow he comes in from AC Milan and, you know, he's obviously playing at AC Milan and AC Milan are doing very well.

38:38When he comes into the England squad, he's not in anyone's team there, is he? and he didn't make it through to the second match. And you're thinking, this guy's a leading light in Italian football. So how strong is Italian football? Well, it ended in the 90s. The early 90s, they were really strong. But when you got to 95, 96, and you see players like Desai who were playing out there and many, many others that were top players and Van Basten, Rijka, Hullit. Obviously Van Basten got injured But you see someone like Hullit come across Even though they were senior players They seemed to decline from then onwards For me They seemed to be not as good club wise And internationally well I mean they won the 2006 World Cup I mean

39:28Gregor Robertson: You should remember also Not that they won the last but won Euros Yeah But that wasn't full of gifted stars was it Chiesa was probably their best player in that tournament and he had obviously a serious injury as well, which didn't help afterwards. But you look, I look at Italian football now and I just don't see, you know, like France would have the Henri and the Eccetite that's appeared and then Mbappe would, you know, they've had all these. And yeah, Italian football hasn't had, hardly anyone have known. Tell me, Greg, if I'm wrong. I don't know. No, a lot of introspection in Italy. There's an excellent piece by Ian Hockey in the Times today, analysing what's gone wrong for Italy.

40:06Gregor Robertson: I'd advise anyone to To seek that one out What about Sweden though? And Graham Potter From West Ham to the World Cup Martin Yeah absolutely Incredible scenes Yeah fantastic Wins against Ukraine and Poland In their playoff final Ascent Sweden to the World Cup Against all odds Because They failed to win Any of their six Qualification group games Drew two and lost four Finishing behind Switzerland Kosovo And Slovenia Potter was in Was in place For only the last two of them Nothing to do with Graham Potter He was in place for the last two of them. And then, you know, everything was on the line in the playoffs by virtue of winning Nations League Group C, which was a group that contained Slovakia, Estonia and Azerbaijan.

40:47Gregor Robertson: Is it, just first of all, is this fair? Nonsense. It's nonsense, isn't it? Let's be honest, it's absolute nonsense. You've got a thing called a World Cup qualifier. As far as I'm concerned, call me old-fashioned, that's the qualifier for the World Cup. what this is God only knows I really really don't know so good luck to crying Potter don't spend it all at once try and get do the lottery numbers this weekend on you go mate it's not an olive leaf branch is it it's an olive tree that's what you get in modern day football you can always get in by the back door well that's that's what's amazing about Italy isn't it that there's never been more opportunities 48 team expanded World Cup 48 team well if you don't qualify this way you can do that and then you can qualify that way and then you can do this and look, okay, tell you what beat Port Vale next Tuesday and you're in that's what we'll do and they still can't do it I mean that's the most amazing thing Just quickly, I'll play the devil's advocate here because there is an argument to say that first of all it makes well yes, Scotland got in once this way there is an argument to say that there are smaller nations who because of ranking will always be placed in a world cup qualifying group where it's almost impossible to qualify and this is like another opportunity for them to achieve something special is that not a fair point it kind of opens up no it's not because Croatia is not some huge great country but what's that five million people yeah absolutely they seem to do all right it was your lot that messed this up in the to expand all of these tournaments.

42:32The European Championships, there was this great, you know, tournament, 16 teams, had to hit the ground running. Next thing you know, oh, everyone's in. We didn't need it this time, did we? Exactly. And the groups were unbelievable. Martin signed there, the groups at 16. You look at the groups, they were phenomenally difficult. Yeah.

42:53Gregor Robertson: Just quickly though, Graham Potter, three weeks after he left West Ham, he took this job. As we said, it looked like, he's taken over from John Dal Thomason, a team with loads of injuries, confidence on the floor. Yeah, whether it's through the back door, it's still a great achievement for him and moment for him. Redemption story for him. Well, shall we move on? Yeah, no, mate. Look, no, it is. I'm pleased. I shouldn't ask the West Ham fan. Cass, what about Green Potter? It's nothing to do with that. Well, I've not seen them play. All I've seen is the goals in midweek and Jokorezzi would be delighted.

43:27and there'll be a connection with Sweden like West Ham for the World Cup again, weren't there? We always mention West Ham in the World Cup team. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, it's great on Jokeres, isn't it? I mean, it's fantastic for Arsenal. If you're Mikhail Arteta, you'll be almost as happy as that as you were with the nine injuries that you managed to pick up and so everyone had a fortnight with their feet up, apart from Paul Madureki. I mean, that's been fantastic. He scored match-winning goals. really really important goals if you can't come back to the league campaign with your tail up there and Isaac yeah I was going to say no Isaac as well well it's well I've led to believe that they'll play a two if he was fit Isaac they'll go with a two because they have to because that is such a big threat if they've got two of these strikers and they won't have Fulosevsky's fit it's not a bad front three yeah exactly anyway excellent for Graham Potter

44:23Gregor Robertson: I'm pleased for Graham Potter how do they finish nine points behind Kosovo well they've all been injured That's the problem Yeah On to Spurs And De Zerbe We spoke at length About this On Monday's show But it's now been confirmed That the That the Italian Head coach Has joined Spurs On a five year deal With no relegation clause Yeah Well they had to do that Simple question Can he keep Spurs up? Yes Of course Of course he can keep Spurs Do you believe he will? I tell you what It's quite difficult Because he's not You know The way that he likes To play football Okay you can see him galvanising the team but it's quite risky you know it's a risky style that De Zerbi has it's not belt and braces at all it is the complete opposite to what most clubs think they need to stay up basically which is someone who's going to go right here we go banks are full conservative we don't reach too much De Zerbi's a bit of a high wire act so that could go either way I think it's a big fillip for the club after the sort of disastrous, sadly, appointment of Igor Tudor.

45:34I think it's a big fillip for the club. And they could do nothing but give him a long-term contract with no get-out clause. Because to have a manager who's basically so confident in the squad that he wants a clause that lets him out the back door if he goes down would have sent such a poor message. Gass, do you think does everybody will keep them up? Well, I spoke to Adam Alana yesterday on radio, who obviously worked with him at Brighton, glowing about him. And you could tell it was coming from a real place. And I said to him that question of, you know, keeping Spurs up. And he went, 100%. No, not even an issue.

46:18They all do it comfortably. And then I spoke to a journalist I know in France who worked at Brighton and Hove Albion, that now is in Marseille working on sort of a book to do with Deserbi. And also, you know, because he's there and he's also met Deserbi. And we chatted and he said some interesting things about, you know, doing interviews. He'd done all his interviews in Italian and as a translator in France because he wanted it to be word perfect because of, you know, how it was interpreted in Marseille. because Marseille can get slightly off track. Yeah. And he said, what you're going to get is going to be some eyes, but when the lows is how he reacts in the lows because he's a really feisty character of what he sees and what he thinks at the football club.

47:07And Marseille, it's a hard one. People will look and say, well, he didn't achieve anything of Marseille. It's impossible for Marseille to win the league. They can't even get near to competing with PSG. Just look at Marseille's line-up and you'll see a good number of ex-Premier League players who were deemed not good enough, like Emerson or Hoiberg and others that are there, that he's competing against that. And they've made the Champions League this year, which was a big thing for Marseille at the end of last season. And they're still in the sort of echelons of the top level in France now. I know he's just left.

47:42So I'm very optimistic. I think it's a really good signing. Will it work? Heaven knows on that. But I do think it's a sign in where a manager who really does know what he wants. I did say when Klopp left, someone like De Zerbe, I would take a Liverpool before slot. I did say that. So I'm not going to turn my back now and go, oh, no, I wouldn't take him. I absolutely think he's tough for football. And he will get a lot of people out of that football club that need to go as well. Just keeping them up in the first place. I mean, that's it. I mean, I've always said you keep getting asked on here. who do you think will go down?

48:18I've always said it's West Ham because they can't get out of the bottom three. And, you know, the margins down there are very, very small, which cuts both ways. It does mean that Tottenham don't need the greatest resurgence to sort of boost themselves up there, you know, because other teams can't quite get going.

48:41Gregor Robertson: Okay. Another interesting story, quickly to turn our focus to, from the international break was an interview Mark Cucurella gave on the international duty with Spain when he basically said that Chelsea were wrong to sack Enzo Maresca and he said that signing teenagers all the time basically makes you feel discouraged as one of the senior players in the squad. That follows Enzo Fernandes' sort of flirtation with a transfer in the summer. It came just before Chelsea recorded the biggest financial loss in British football history, 262.4 million. And also the news that they spent more than 65 million on agents this season, which is 25 million more than any other team.

49:26Gregor Robertson: And second only to the record 75 million they splashed out two years ago. Like, there seems to be one thing after another with Chelsea at the moment. Are we at the stage where it's like threatening to unravel this project, Martin? Well, potentially. I mean, I think the biggest danger to the project is that players, senior players, and I know this is all relative, but senior players as far as Chelsea are concerned, i.e. Fernandes, i.e. Kukurela, are now coming out and talking as if they're not buying into this as a long-term plan. You know, after what Kukurela says, the very next, the next stage in that conversation, shall we say, is for him to say, anyway, I'm not sticking around for it.

50:15You know, if they want to replace me with a couple of 19-year-olds, go ahead because I don't fancy this, which is pretty much what Fernandes has said, you know. I mean, Fernandes is talking about Real Madrid. Well, good luck with that, bearing in mind what he was accused of, the song and singing on the coach, and it was about France's black players. I don't know if he's noticed at Real Madrid, that team's pretty much built around France's best black player. So, you know, good luck in them trying to marry Fernandes and Mbappé in the same squad. I mean, I would say, I'm not sure he's good enough either.

50:49Well, that's, but even if he certainly thinks he is, but that could be a bit of an obstacle. And the Cucurella thing, it's another player coming, you know, Cole Palmer, I mean, I know Cole Palmer's got quite a long face anyway, but Cole Palmer does look as if a man who's not entirely happy with life at the moment. It's mounting up and it's all those players that they can't afford to lose. It's all of those guys they can't afford to lose. I don't know what businesses of the FAs, how much they're spending on agents, by the way. I'll just make that one little point. I don't know why that's the FA's business.

51:33They're a private company. Whatever they want to spend on agents is their business. Whether it's a good use of money and quite why you need to spend £65 million on agents if you've got five directors of football, recruitment people, whatever they are, what are these guys doing? Because if - I think Cass has a theory about this. If what you need to do, right, I would - But if what you need to do to get the transfer deal over the line is give 65 million quid to agents. Well, you only need one bloke to do that, don't you? One bloke with a very big suitcase like that one in Pulp Fiction. Gus, go on.

52:08Look, we all know they have a very high turnover of players, yeah? They churn players for fun. There is a phrase in the markets of churning, and that's what Chelsea do. Also, the reason why they're paying such high fees is because they're going over long contracts. The contracts are all six and seven years, so their fees are going to be higher. because the agent's fees are going to be... The best over the term of the contract. Over the term of the contract. So if you're doing three-year contracts, you pay a certain amount. And if you're doing six - and seven-year contracts, you're having to pay more.

52:38Absolutely. So they've got themselves in a bit of a pickle. The one thing I'd say about Kukurea, the only thing I'd say, and I'm a little bit suspicious of that, the project at Chelsea is obviously young, yeah? They've gone very, very young as their team. He's 27, he's 28 in the summer. So he's seeing maybe my last chance for a big move because this club might not keep me because now I'm 27, nearly 28. And they might see that as a way of, we'll get a decent fee for him, we'll get him out the door. You know, because Chelsea have done that already. So I don't like it when players speak out against their club.

53:09And it's just not on. It's disrespectful and it questions people in positions that you don't need to. You're a football player, you've signed a contract to be at a club for how many years and you serve it. Until the club tell you, you know, we don't want you. because everyone says, oh, you know, all the clubs can get rid of you when they want you because they're a commodity. Yeah, they can. They've got the right to do that, agree. But you don't have to go. You can stay at a football club if you choose not to. You can go, no, I don't want to go. You know? So I don't like what's happening and what I'm seeing at Chelsea because this club that has changed dramatically since Ken Bates stays and I was there until Abramovich come in and become successful, this club has changed more than any club in football, even more so than Manchester City and now they're at a stage where if this goes wrong there will be a fourth apocalypse a fourth apocalypse a fourth apocalypse yes

54:05Gregor Robertson: okay you know you don't know what to say that's fine you want to go with it you want to go with the first apocalypse really just to avoid the rush when the fourth one comes in you know well look interesting times for Chelsea and the Chelsea project Chelsea take on League One Port Vale in the FA Cup quarterfinal this weekend one of four games biggest game of course between Manchester City and Liverpool you can read a big piece by Paul Joyce on the Times website just now which is analysing whether Liverpool's owners will stand by slot this summer or not Southampton also host Arsenal West Ham host Leeds two relegation teams going at it in the FA Cup we'll be back on Monday to analyse all of that and more hope to see you then

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