Who's at fault - Carrick or Fernandes?

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0:58Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Another dismal defeat. Another star player turning on those in charge. Manchester United season is unravelling at an alarming rate once again. How long can Michael Carrick survive as manager and will his players ever take responsibility for their performances? On today's show, we'll also discuss Champions League wins for Liverpool, Aston Villa and Manchester City and an entertaining draw between Bayern Munich and Arsenal and Tottenham's first win in the Premier League this season. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the Chief Correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel.

1:37The senior sports writer and Sunday Times colonist Alison Rudd and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual. Let's get stuck straight into it again. It's another Thursday. It's another Manchester United disaster in the Champions League, beaten 4-1 by Como. We have discussed this club so much on this podcast and understandably so because of the situation they are in. But I wanted to zone in on this performance and this defeat and this game because it felt like a moment. Martin you've written about it brilliantly on the Times website and in the paper today Gregor I want to come to you first as the former player because I think as players that's going to be a big part of this we'll talk about Bruno Fernandes's comments in a minute just set the stall for us if you like about this performance and what you thought of it both as now as a commentator as a journalist but also as someone who played the game watching that performance by those United players we have conversation we had conversation when we came in this morning and it was kind of like Martin saying almost looked like my United players aren't running around they're not willing to run around and Carrick sort of echoed that as well in his press conference that they you know with a lot of talk about if Fernandes came out and said they're not pressing you know not brave enough to do it or they're not capable enough to do it and it looks like they're not running around it's like there's a balance between that and the tactics and like the things work in tandem and basically when you watch them it looked like a game of keep ball for a large swathes of the match for Como and it was almost embarrassing to watch for Manchester United.

3:05I think both things are true there. The way that the team are set out, they look incapable of pressing as a unit and there's so many instances of watching one player go and then turn around and throw their hands up in the air because there's no one supporting them. And Fernandes actually is right, they don't have defenders who are brave enough or capable enough to back up and support that press that's like to go straight in to talk about pressing is you know there's a reason for that because they couldn't get the ball back yeah it was embarrassing to watch them trying to get the ball back from Como yeah and Como were excellent they played in little tight spaces in midfield and then sprung forward I thought there was kind of it was a bit like watching Spain like they kept the ball for large periods without actually going anywhere and then boom they were going they were really incisive and the goals like the goals are a whole other conversation shambolic which we will come back to because I want your defenders to take on those but Martin as I said mentioned that piece that's in the pages today and on the website always a sign for an editor as I was last night when the phone rings and Martin said you know a performance is significant I did call you I did call you straight back but what was it about this performance for you that made you think A I've got to write about this and that this is a moment for this club and for this manager This feels like a tipping point of some description.

4:28It's 94, their last result was by a decision. But that was against Barcelona. This is against Como. Como were a fourth division team. In 2019, when only Gonesaulcia got the Manchester United job, Como was doing the fourth division. The week that Manchester United played Barcelona, They played a team from a suburb of Verona that played at a community stadium. You can't get more than 1 ,000 people there. So that is how quickly Como have managed to catch Manchester United, to catch a team with every advantage it is possible to have in modern football. You go back to that Eric Ten Hag interview this week, Harry Kane and Declan Rice, and asking for both.

5:14and you know that nobody at Manchester United, nobody felt capable of dealing with Daniel Levy. No one thought, right, I'll go into a room with Daniel Levy, I'll get Harry Kane for this club. But not only that, they didn't fancy trying to get Declan Rice out of West Ham. West Ham were a silly club. Yeah, yeah. You know, they sold their rivals. They sold their Tottenham. They sold their Arsenal. They sold their clubs 10 miles down the road. West Ham were a silly club. I didn't even fancy, because West Ham said, we don't want to sell Declan Weiss and Manchester United don't think well we'll see about that we're Manchester United and then you get to the players and it's another post-match interview in which it's someone else's fault and you just look at it and think I'd describe it as a diseased football club and that's what it feels like Yeah, yeah, yeah Martin's right it felt like a tipping point to me because what was breathtaking about it was there was no running and you think of every other match you've watched in recent recent years and you think and how football's developed to become more intense more intense more emphasis on the physicality and they was they were strolling um yes body language was bad which which which stems from conceding another early goal in europe i think this was like the culmination of what we've seen this season from manchester united so in the premier league it's not just in the europe in Europe in the Premier League they haven't been running as much as their opponents I'm I'm with Bruno on this if they're if they're not if they've not been trained to do it and they're not instructed to do it they won't do it because you need to do it as a group were you at Fulham were you at the Fulham game Ali no I was at the Fulham game I mean the Fulham game was absolutely shocked I don't think this is cut and dry is like effort I think it ultimately does come down to your instructions and if you have the confidence that you're going to be supported then you feel you feel more empowered that seems like the wrong word but you feel like okay it's worth me doing this so why is one person going though exactly why is one person you know i mean if you're thinking okay they're told if they're told not to press right sit back let them have the ball and then we'll press there's got to be a time when you do press otherwise you know they just come through your team so there's got to be a moment when right and then we press them in this area yeah but what you don't understand is why one guy's going so why's one guy going what has he got a different instruction they all go with different levels of intensity don't they it amazes me and i think one of you's already made this alluded to this point as well it looks like they're doing a training session for the opposition in how to beat a press that's what it looks like a lot of the time because they're kind of like not quite there so you got there was a moment in the halfway through the first half where Como went from their right back all the way up to the left side so easily and you're like this is like an instruction manual in how to beat a press without the actual pressing and the fear of getting caught on the ball this is where I slightly come back to my sympathy for Michael Carrick and Gregor I wanted to ask you about this before we come back to Bruno and pressing in his comments because whatever you say about Michael Carrick and his status as a manager his experience, there's no way his instructions will have included to Harry Maguire, Harry, when Nico Paz gets the ball on the edge of the box after two minutes, give him three yards, let him turn and then do a half-assed like back turn closing down.

8:43That's where I come down to my sympathy. And it's fascinating to hear you all agree with Bruno on the coaching, but I'm looking at it going, that ain't coaching. That's something in the players. And you might then say to me, well it's belief they don't have it what would you say to that? Because the defending was atrocious atrocious Yeah for Maguire that's an isolated moment because it's so early in the game too you can't even say that like you know Komov dominated possession you're feeling they've got him behind you a few times we'll drop off a few yards it was literally in the opening two minutes of the game and he's given them far too much room that was a howler then there's things like De Ligt kind of looking like he's I don't think I don't think Carrick would want to play Delecht in any other circumstance.

9:27Clearly he'll have injuries because he looked like he couldn't move and he almost fell over as the ball was like, as they were kind of cut through at the start of the second half. And then Balaba gifts possession as well. Ramon for the fourth is unmarked and six yards from goal. So a lot of these are individual errors. But I'm with you. You look at their back four, Masraoui, Maguire, Delecht, Dalo. That shouldn't be a Manchester United back four. But all the goals though, even the fourth one, you saw the cross coming in and you're like, this is going in because it's going to go to that guy who has got five yards between two defenders in the box.

10:00The goal for them of a labour mistake is just running and you're thinking, is anyone going to try and get out and close him down? These things are not Michael Carrick. Are they? This is players really letting a club and a management and fans down. No, and this is the point at which previous managers, Ten Hag, Ruben Amorim, everyone starts pointing at them and saying they're a clown and they don't know what they're doing. Carrick's not a clown and he's got Steve Holland next to him who's a really experienced like very well respected coach they know what they're doing if they're not pressing high they know that it's because they don't have the players to do it and so like while Bruno is right and he may be getting frustrated by this and like it also seems a bit jarred and Alisson's right to watch Manchester United and see them playing a kind of brand of football that's like from the past a little bit and also when you're Manchester United you should be like you feel like you're the main protagonist all the time.

10:55You're going to dominate the game and with and without the ball. They don't have the players to do that. So that comes back to the recruitment and people who've, over a period of a decade, done the job appallingly. And then that comes back to the people who run in the club. It's all interlinked and it's definitely not all on character. Which definitely comes back to Martin's point. So let's bring in those Bruno comments. You've all referenced them already. Two of you, I think, have said, maybe all of you have said you agree with the sentiment of what he was saying. But I wanted to ask about the kind of semantics of it and being a club captain in that moment and going out and essentially throwing your manager under the bus.

11:30It's unhelpful, isn't it? It's completely and utterly unhelpful. You know, so you're the captain of the club. Your job is to help the club. I don't, you know, I'm not going to be among these students going, oh, this is absolutely appalling. People should come in and lie through their teeth and give us plain quotes and tell us everything's terrible. Everything's wonderful. But he's meant to help. I cannot see in what part of his imagination did he think that that could possibly help the club. All it does is heap even more pressure on Carrick and the pressure Carrick is under is enormous anyway.

12:11If you go back to, you go back to Alex Ferguson's first year at Manchester United, walking around, puffing his cheeks out, saying to people, big club this, big club this. You know, that's Alex Ferguson. It took him a while to get used to the scrutiny that the Manchester United manager was under. And that's before they could win anything. They haven't won anything in 20 years when he was walking around saying that. So this is now a club Where there's a generation of fans That expects to be winning, winning, winning all the time And they're not So Calix under enormous pressure And then Bruno comes in And basically Says, well it's on him He might just as well have said He doesn't know what he's doing He doesn't know how to coach us That is what he has said in so many words But I have some sympathy with him actually I know it's slightly controversial to say it And I accept the role of a captain is not to make things worse.

13:09But it was so humiliating. He obviously, you know, he was player of the season last year. And that stemmed from a deep love of the club and a desire to do well in every game, regardless of who was the manager or the circumstances. And from Michael Carrick playing him in the right position, though. He got a lot better after Michael Carrick played him as a number 10. He did. But if you've just had a humiliating performance on the European stage and you know it's because you haven't been trained to press and trained to keep up with current trends in football, it's hard to stand there and accept responsibility.

13:45He may well have, during the match, felt it pulling away from them, just disappearing and knowing that that stemmed from the training they'd put in beforehand. And he was so cross about the lack of good preparation for the game. I'm not saying he calculatedly did it to throw Carrick under the bus and that's the effect of it but I have sympathy if you've been humiliated to explain this isn't on the players we didn't want it to be like this Martin I don't think you want to come back in but Greg as a man who's been in dressing rooms thoughts on that idea from Alison though because I think a lot of people saw Bruno's comments and I've seen many Manchester United fans in the comments section of our website saying he's been rubbish for the past few weeks he was rubbish in this game he shouldn't be keep it in the dressing room your thoughts on that as a former pro yeah you should keep it in the dressing room so should Martin both of them have been unhelpful as an understatement they've been they're throwing Garrick under the bus and he looked like he was fuming when he was brought off he looks like you know we keep going around in circles I feel like I've been doing this in Solskjaer's days you think Fernandes at times is like their talisman and the guy who keeps the show on the road almost and then other times you think he's like an emblem of all that's wrong with the club he's throwing his arms up there was one in the first half when Mason Mount didn't quite show enough for him inside and he had to go backwards and he threw his arms up and you could hear it on the microphone beside the pitch he says come to play he's like complaining that he wasn't coming to show to play football with him it's like everything's so like petulant and moody with him on the pitch you speak to Johnny who's interviewed Johnny Northgrove who's interviewed him and he often He often feels that actually he's just raising standards around him.

15:32The players accept that's part of who he is. So probably these things are somewhere in the middle, there's a truth there. But in these moments, it's an awful look. And particularly when he's the guy who's actually having to play as the centre forward at the moment and lead the press, and he's running forwards and turning around and throwing his arms up almost all the time. And I understand it because it's frustrating, but it looked like so many people were, moody discontented and like didn't want to be there and it's an awful look for a Manchester United team I was in conversation with a extraordinarily famous coach name him a little while ago and we were talking about Manchester United and he said there's not a single player there's not a single player there that you would want as a manager that would get into my team right I can't tell you what the team was would get into my team and I said well Bruno Fernandes Let's just say no.

16:29And, you know, and you do wonder whether with Bruno, as good as he's been, you're a very big fish in a small pool there because there's nobody there with his ability. There's no one there, you know, as good as he is. And it's almost a little, it's got a little bit into that sort of Alexis Sanchez situation at Arsenal where everyone, it was always someone else's fault. He was waving. He did more waving his arms about than anyone I've ever known. Yeah. And then eventually he went to Manchester United. Actually, it turned out he wasn't quite the player that he thought he was because he couldn't get into the Manchester United team after about six months.

17:12So, you know, Bruno got taken off last night. Without a doubt, I think that was a factor in him going in. And I totally get Ali's point. I totally get that the points the man made, absolutely right. If they're not being told to press and go to press and they're not being told to play in a certain way, then results like that could happen. Yeah. And it's very easy to just blame the players. But I just think if you are the captain of the club, you've got to count to 10. You've got to think, right, we are in this together. You write for a newspaper. There's plenty of people in the newspaper you don't agree with or whatever.

17:52you don't turn you don't start having a pop at one of your colleagues in your column or whatever because you wouldn't do that it's like you know the the jobs you know there's plenty of people want to have a pop at um uh you know columnists or whatever so you know we don't need to start shooting each other so you just go right okay there's going to be enough people yeah frankly excuse my language pissing all over this club in the next few days I do not need to add to that but the passion the passion you see from him is the passion that has got Manchester United to qualify for the Champions League in the first place I would say one word ever right to speak out and it can be more than one word but ever right for a player in these scenarios that we're talking about when it's negative to Martin's point for a player in a squad to speak out not that I can think of really yeah I think you have the conversation in the changing rooms.

18:49And if you're doing it in public, then it probably says a lot about the man you're criticising. Yeah. And speaking of the man he was criticising, let's move on to Michael Carrick. Quite a striking image and quite similar to one of Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, I believe, after the Watford game, which I think was his last game in charge. Michael Carrick going over to Manchester United's away fans, speaking to Paul Hurst, he put this in his report. Michael Carrick, the man about the hype and keeping everyone together and stuff, this felt like a moment for him as well as for this club going over to the fans saying sorry and walking straight down the tunnel no acknowledgement of his players this was before comments from bruno fernandez paul hirsch writing on the times website now at the time of recording of course this can all change by the time you're listening to this but that the manchester knight hierarchy was stunned by the poor performance of the players in the 4-1 loss to como and feel they should take a portion of the blame for the slumping form that leaves michael carrick fighting to save his job that's where we stand at the moment they could have all changed but on Carrick then we've been in this doom cycle if you like so many times with Manchester United on this podcast and in all our coverage what is the merit in attacking Michael Carrick for Manchester United that is how I'm framing that question what what do they gain from sacking Michael Carrick yeah they gain might gain a coach who coaches them properly in the modern world I am I am baffled by what I saw last night to be quite honest.

20:10And you lay it at the feet of Michael Carrick. I think it's been growing and growing and growing all season. I was really optimistic that having taken over from Amirim, steadied the ship, one game a week, gave him a nice runway into the new season that we would see a team adopting the successful tactics of those around him. And for some reason they've just gone back to 1986. It's utterly bizarre and that has to come from Carrick. So, almost any other coach who's got some sort of... It makes you think, because of the outburst from two players, is he not taking the players? Is he scared of the players?

20:51Has he not got enough authority in the dressing room to tell them what to do? But they have had... Does he have a clear plan of what makes successful football in the current environment of football? I think it's very strange. These players, Bruno Fernandes being one of them, Harry Maguire being another, but they've had every form of manager. They've had the modern tactician genius, Ruben Amrim. They've had Eric Ten Hag. They've had a couple of homegrown legends who know the club. It all seems to work for anything between... How many times have we been here? How many times have you had the thought experiment about if you dropped in Cesc Fabregas?

21:31How good did they look? How well coached did they look? it wouldn't it wouldn't make the difference we think it's going to make but this is why I'm asking because this is a squad that's been assembled for three for four managers but three have changed in if Carrick leaves three have changed in mid-season in three seasons it's a squad that's been assembled over the years for guys with different systems different ideas like different ways of playing football and also dysfunctionally when they replace the forward line because they're doing this in three stages aren't they they're doing the forward line and then they're doing the midfield and then they're they're going to get around to the defence.

22:06Maybe in five years. Maybe next year or whatever, because it's not like you need one. So the forward line was replaced when Amarun was in charge. So was that a forward line that was replaced to suit the way Amarun played, which is not necessarily the way that Cowick plays? A forward line which, once your one striker gets injured, means you don't have a focal point. You don't have anyone running in behind. You don't have anyone to hold the ball up, which has been a major problem. And you've got to remember that Rashford as well. Rashford's not meant to be there. They spent all summer trying to sell Rashford.

22:38So the idea that they've now got this guy, well, Rashford could always play. Yeah, but Rashford's not meant to be there. It was Sesco or bust, basically. I do think, I'm sort of with Gregor on this, that you can take anyone. You can take Antonio Conte in there. You can take Tom Conte in there. But, I mean, you put anyone in there. What are you going to do? So are you two in the framing of my question the merit in my sacking Michael Carrick because you can't sack a I mean you can sack people above Michael Carrick but probably more unlikely you can't sack Bruno Fernandes and Harry Maguire I mean you can but it's unlikely the only person you can sack a manager Look there always comes a point at which you're almost left with no alternative when the relationship with the players and the fans I don't think we're there yet I still think you don't I think you could be getting there, couldn't you?

23:31I mean, how long do you go on? Do you think we are there? I think Alison, just a second, you think we are there. I don't think it... It was, as Martin said at the very beginning, it's a tipping point. I just think it's getting harder to justify. I feel sorry for Michael Carrick. I don't think this is all Michael Carrick's fault, but it's getting harder. I mean, if you extrapolate their points at the moment, I know, what are we, seven games? Seven games? Seven games. Seven games. If you extrapolate their points from now, they would get relegated last season. Right. You know, West Ham went down with 39 points.

24:09Manchester United at the moment are on course for 38. Okay, but last season they were the third best team after they joined. What's changed so dramatically? Yeah, but this is what I mean. That's what I can't understand, mate. This is just what I can't... What of the players... Were the players putting it in more at the end of last season because they were looking over their shoulders and they thought maybe someone bigger was coming in and now that they know it's Michael Carrick. Right, okay. But Amarim was so flawed as a coach. I think there was an upturn just by him not being there and someone with a feeling for the club and could, I don't know, tap into that, I'm a Man United fan and I know the club and it's all right, I'm here now.

24:54and I'm and you know this happens throughout history opposites always come in someone who's very different so Carrick was so different to Amram in terms of personality and presumably behind the scenes very different as well and so there's a huge sigh of relief and so there is an upturn in performances but if he's not prepared to coach them in the ways of modern football he has to go surely yeah anyway it's too simplistic as well I don't think he's not coaching them in the ways of modern football I think as I say again he's looking at his team and think we're not capable of playing the way a lot of other teams of that stature do which let's not forget and you should also say we're banging on a bit Preston's not the only way of playing football like most teams do it most big teams you can't sit off but they're not doing either they're not doing that that's the point I couldn't know we should just say they did against Leeds actually they've almost played a back five against Leeds this is another Manchester United manager in recent times Eric Ten Hag said the same thing didn't he he said I came in I wanted to play this way I then realised I couldn't so I'm now playing this more kind of direct he called it direct football didn't he for a while and then that was the kind of start of his turn away from ends up slagging everyone off Martin sorry no no I mean look you know there's a match where I'm going to play Shakhtar Donetsk it's Deserby is Shakhtar Donetsk and it's like he just tells them let them have the ball yeah let them have the ball don't you know what they want you to do is they want you to press they want you they want to have the ball and they want to suck you in when they want to suck you in with this press so don't go But if you're a Real Madrid, you can't do that every week.

26:24No, no, no. But they could do it against that. So they did it. Because in the end, what they will do is they will give you the ball. Because, you know, it's all about getting behind if we're there. And that's what they did. And they won 5-1. You know, you've got to do one or the other. You can't. This halfway house where one person goes and the other guys are standing there whittling some or whatever they're doing. I don't know. it's it's suicidal I mean look they're very lucky they're playing Bournemouth on the back of Bournemouth versus AC Milan yeah that's the best that is your best Sunday fixture against Bournemouth all season yeah that you could possibly have will be this one yeah but this time next week Michael Carrick still Manchester United manager yes or no just as a guess yes yes yes yes this time next week yes no no interesting Manchester United fans do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk we're going to take a break we're going to come back We're going to talk about all the rest of the football, some victories, some wins, some enjoyable things elsewhere in the Champions League and in football this week.

27:26A little quiz question to take us to the break. Aston Villa's Ibrahim Mbae is the joint youngest player to assist in consecutive Champions League appearances for a Premier League team alongside who? Find out after the break.

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28:30That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com slash getgab and use code getgab for an exclusive offer. That's gab.com forward slash getgab. Gab, tech in steps, independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

29:13Welcome back to The Game, football podcast from The Times. And Sunday Times, I'm Tom Clarke, and I've got Gregor Robertson, Martin Samuel, and Alison Rudd with me. Confused looks in the studio. It was quite a tricky quiz question, to be honest. Very long. Very long. Very long. And I'd lost interest by the end. Martin and Alison had a nice chat, a bit of a catch-up. We had a catch-up. Gregor had his head in his hands. Nice. Not a bad run. And none of them got the answer, which was Jack Wilshire in September 2010. I just like the fact that they're joint youngest, 18 years and 270 days each. You should have said that.

29:51Then we might have been interested. Then, you see, because that's quite interesting. It really is in the way that you tell them. That's the sort of podcast I'd like to be on. Not this one. One day, Martin, one day. Ibrahim Mbahi, though, in part. Aston Villa, we're excited about. Someone's going to get on board with Aston Villa excitement. very soon. And Alison, we've got another chance for you to go and interview someone called Alison. Set it up. It's going to happen. The new Aston Villa superstar, one of many, and also Ross Barkley's back. Who saw that comeback coming? Not me. Definitely not.

30:23He was supposed to be washed up when he was at Chelsea. It's quite phenomenal. He's 32 at Aston Villa and Unai Emery, we always bang on about what an amazing coach he is. Unai, Roman Emery. But apart from him having sussed Europe completely and consistently, which is phenomenal, he gets the best out of individuals doesn't he? On top of the Champions League table if I was an annoying stupid podcast host I'd be getting carried away about Arsenal because we're going to win the Champions League I'm not going to It's one of those things that you know you see this morning a few Manchester United fans talking about Emery and why would Emery want to go to Manchester for all of the limitations that are placed on Aston Villa But why in your right mind, if you were in Aymery, would you think, he doesn't seem an arrogant man, why would you be so arrogant to think, I can solve this.

31:19I am the manager that can really sort this out. Especially. Because whoever they get is going to have to have the ego on the side of a panic because everyone else has gone in there and, like, crashed and burned. Even the executives, if you think about it, you know, they come in, They seem to be doing good jobs elsewhere. Have you noticed that? No one was saying Omar Braga didn't know what he was doing at Manchester City. Everyone was like, oh, this guy's a smart guy. Goes to Manchester United. What? What is happening? Jason Wilcox. To bring it back to Manchester United. Back to Manchester United.

31:53We started Aston Villa. Look, sorry, Aston Villa fans, but I'm trying to keep you managing. But he would be insane to go to Manchester United. Oh, absolutely. And he doesn't strike me as the type of person that would want. I mean, he's got everything he wants at Aston Villa, including lots of very talented young players. Mentioning Ross Barkley, another English player, slightly younger, but back in in form, Phil Foden with a brilliant hat-trick for Manchester City. I saw, you see that goal, the angle, the camera angle? Beautiful goal. Into the top corner. Wonderful stuff to see Phil Foden back.

32:22Alisson, Liverpool winning 4-3 against Villarreal. Good Iriola, bad Iriola. Where are we at the scale? Florian Wurtz, should we only play him in the Champions League? thoughts? That would be a solution, wouldn't it? Very expensive solution. Yes, but a solution. Watching Liverpool is like you're watching Iriola working in a factory floor on an assembly line and he's got this conveyor belt coming with all the parts he needs to build something very beautiful at the end of it. But the conveyor belt keeps stopping and juddering, juddering backwards and then he finds that the pieces that are supposed to come out in a certain order do not come out in the order they're supposed to come out and there's a danger that what he builds is something kind of messy at the end of it but I feel he's got a lot on his plate and that was in microcosm in that Champions League game because it was an appallingly slow start the conveyor belt had stopped but he's a good manager I mean I don't know I don't know I can't speak for the Liverpool fan base it'll be split there'll be some losing patients I'm sure I would really strongly argue keep with him just as we've been talking about the microcosm of what happens in Como I think in this instance what you saw was a manager you know they're still getting used to what I want but he was able to speak to them at half time and they came out better he's made good substitutions he's given Ingemo a chance to show that he can play on the right which is very important there is this post-Mo Salah scenario that is a niggle and understanding when a young player is ready to perform in that way and have that sort of responsibility, it reflects well on the manager.

34:11So I think that was a game in microcosm and Liverpool did win it and I think it proves that the project, the Iriola project will come good. Excellent. It's been a while since we've had a Rudd analogy, hasn't it Greg? It's good to have it back and on a Thursday for once rather than a Monday. Let's talk about two of the games that I think maybe most neutrals would you agree? I've just thought about this but if these two end up being the two semi-finals, Arsenal v Bayern, PSG, Barcelona, we'd be up for that, wouldn't we? Pretty good. That would be the top four seats, I would think. Certainly would.

34:40Let's start with Arsenal by Munich, 2-2. I'm very tempted to just talk about Harry Kane, but does anyone... Arsenal, quite a good performance from good goals. Declan Rice's goal, very good. Mikel Arteta talking after the game, going, that's the level. Do you get the sense that maybe Arsenal are so good now in certain respects that actually they're better against better teams than they are having to break down very low blocks by Oliver Glasner's forest, Gregor? Possibly. I'd think they're going toe-to-toe with a team who, as we said, are alongside them as one of the top seeds. And naturally, as you say, they're more likely to give you spaces in behind.

35:19Like Odegaard's pass for Eze was an absolute dream, but the space was there. And actually, you've got to give Giochra some credit for that touch in the build-up to Rice's goal as well. I've not seen that begrudgingly or anything yeah yeah yeah so yeah it was like they did go Totoro it's not a surprise I don't think it should be a surprise now Arsenal are at that level like I don't think they have the same attacking riches as the other three teams that were just described there just mentioned but in Arsenal's own way they'll find a way to run them very close yeah absolutely that's enough on Arsenal I'm going to talk about Harry Kane we've got the Ballon d 'Or coming on Monday another brilliant performance by England's captain there's so many things you could talk about that pass that pass for the goal a pass described by Mikel Arteta Alisson as into a space that doesn't exist whether that's an annoyed manager who prides himself on his defence or just an admiring comment from a manager I'm not quite sure I think sometimes you do have to just say as someone who loves football that was magnificent and I didn't see it coming or where it was going wow I honestly think with Harry Kane because we're going to get into whether you should win the Ballon d 'Or I'm sure think about Harry Kane I actually think if he scored half as many goals, he would be a more valued player.

36:33Because we focus entirely on his goal-scoring records, we forget just how beautiful a player he is when he drops deep. And Spurs are not a team over my lifetime I've given much love to. I'll be honest about that. That's big of you to admit. I'm sure Tottenham fans would be delighted to admit that. Well, you grow up with things, don't you? You can't help it. where you grew up. And I'm not in favour of football writers who pretend they weren't children once and had their biases. They were the ones with no club. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when he was playing with Son at Spurs, that was one of the beautiful things about football, that relationship.

37:13And watching Harry Kane have that relationship in a new team with new teammates, and it's all on him, his ability to forge those relationships, to understand where the run is coming from. and I think because we all think of him as oh he's going to score that penalty or oh he's going to score that header and oh aren't his scoring statistics amazing I think we overlook just what an asset he is to the whole team and these relationships he builds and his poise and his calmness and his ability to unleash a defence splitting pass and take a goal kick take a goal kick did you see that? I love that so much He works and he's humble and yet he's sublime.

37:57And I think he's actually underrated. And it'd be lovely if he won the Ballon d 'Or. His pass for Saibari as well in the first half was an absolute dream. It was one, I think it was Gabriele, but he's like backtracking and stretching as much as he could and he couldn't get to it. And Saibari's touch let him down. It was like, it would have been probably unequally as beautiful assist. I have often now as well, I watch Bayern Munich and I think back to the piece that Hamza Kalikluna, our colleague, wrote last season when he spoke to him about, he watched Harry Kane and he spoke to him about how he finds space.

38:31It was a fascinating piece. By not running. Sometimes it's by running so deep to see whether your ten and a half is going to be brave enough to go and follow him. And this comes back to some of the stuff that Fernandes was talking about. This is what a lot of football is now. Come on, let's not try and work Man United again. I know, we'll leave that. But he did, he was dropping into the left-backs position sometimes to get on the ball like it's it is almost a test and it creates space for other people if you can get the space to get on the ball then that's when you see is like extraordinary technique and and passing range yeah and he takes responsibility yes I mean because if you look at Paris Munich last night there's no Michael Alisse there's no Missiala there's no Lourdes Diaz at the start and then he comes on and then he gets injured and so you can see that he was playing at half strength when he came on he shouldn't have been there really so you're taking three of the main forwards out of bar munich and harry kane is the only guy that they've that they've got out of that of that that forward line and he makes the first and he steps up for the penalty and he buries the penalty it's a great penalty yeah and because you're looking at the penalty first of all and you're thinking, I've got half a feeling for Raya.

39:51Really, yeah. Yeah, I've got half a feeling for Raya. And the question you think, what was I thinking of? And also to see Raya, it was always interesting after the pass for Alphonso Davies, Raya was kind of, you could see him like thinking, analysing in his head, shaking his head and thinking, could I have been a yard further out to come and get that? But that was the beauty of the pass. It was like, it was into, as Arteta said, a space that really no one really knew if he should be there or not Yes Yeah absolutely He should be the Ballon d 'Or He should be Absolutely Absolutely should be the Ballon d 'Or Speaking about his humbleness Alison you'll enjoy these quotes from Gary Jacob in a news story on the Times website this morning when asked about the ceremony someone cheekily asked it would ease the pressure a little if you knew beforehand Kane said I think my wife would prefer to know and my family it's very stressful for everyone I can tell why they don't tell people they want everyone to go he's talking as if it's like should I turn up for this it's like the Ballon d 'Or Harry for goodness sake you're one of the top two again this just this guy who's like which wants everyone his family to be alright just I mean we're do we all think he will win we all hope he will win I think everyone around this table I'm in agreement do we think he will win I've got no knowledge of how they decide these things oh you know when actually the date it's like a PFA you know he gets for an inch or whatever earlier but you just get the sense with these things sometimes don't you but Alisson always mocks me and Tom Olmott always mocks me for being such a dreamer I think he's going to win it It was also striking last night to hear Stephen Gerrard saying Stephen Gerrard that he's the best player England have ever had Yeah I think we're getting we are in that conversation now to hear Stephen Gerrard say that is something Yeah yeah well absolutely we had it in the international break didn't we Martin you listed him in your top five comfortably as people that you've seen so I think that's definitely right Harry Kane saying we'll just have to try and enjoy it and try not to stress out too much.

41:45I say, as a sports editor, it'd be very useful if we knew you were going to win it as well, Harry, because then we could plan all of our coverage. But good luck to Harry Kane in that Ballon d 'Or contest on Monday. Johnny Northcroft is going to be there for the Times. Let's talk about that other potential. I'm billing it as a semi-final to get us more excited about this league phase. Alison Rudd, you had the pleasure of watching and writing about PSG, Barcelona, and what a treat it was. Absolute treat. There were 40 attempts on goal in the game and people are split on whether the ladder system is good or bad for football and for the spectator.

42:20Overall, not in favour of it. But the good thing about it is that it allows teams to play with freedom because there's no jeopardy. We both know, everyone knows, sorry, that PSG and Barcelona will get through to the next phase. So it's fine. They don't have to worry about it. But it was still like tickets were still being sold at outrageous prices. Everyone wanted to see this particular match. And the overwhelming thing I came out with was, and we've known this about PSG for quite some time, is that domestically, they don't have to worry as much as anybody else. It is quite competitive at the moment, Negan, but generally, as a rule, it's not as demanding.

43:01So Barcelona went there worrying about El Clasico on Sunday and played a young team and rested Rodri for most of the match and still gave it everything. But there was pragmatism there, whereas it meant everything. Even though it meant nothing in the latter terms, it meant everything to PSG. They wanted to show off. They wanted to make their fans happy. They wanted to prove it's worth spending a lot of money on a ticket. It was like they were hungry for top-level opposition. when they go into Europe it's like there's this hunger there that they don't get week on week and so they want to express themselves so they play the best team they can play and they throw everything at it they're palpably emotional so it was quite a hard thing so you're writing as the game is going on and it was quite difficult because there was a period in the second half where Barcelona were quite majestic slowed things down had possession I thought ooh are they going to win this?

44:05This is quite difficult to call. It was a period of about 25 minutes where Barcelona were the better team. But PSG were like hyperventilating and just went up a gear. And so it was, in pure football terms, you could liken it to the third place playoff at the World Cup, I think, in that ultimately it doesn't matter as much to Barcelona as El Clasico and it's not going to decide whether PSG win the Champions League or not. But because of what they have going for them week on week, their diet of football, it meant so much that they were only ever going to win it. And it's unusual to see a team with that many amazing players, with so much money behind it, still have that hunger.

44:54And that's Stante-Lewis-Henriki. It's quite a dominance, isn't it? Kravis-Galia's injury though a major blow for PSG in this one Gregor did you love the kick-off? You must have loved that kick-off Ball straight out of play but the Barcelona full-back going now I know what you're doing and ran and got the ball straight away and took a throw in to try and stop the press and they were still up there weren't they? They were still up there it is quite a dominance that PSG has shown Well for the best the best team I think we'd all agree are probably the best team in Europe slash the world for their probably their most potent weapon to actually be what they do when they don't have the ball says something about like I don't know modern football clearly they have enormous weapons but a lot of their best chances come from those high turnovers and there were a lot of them in this game we're dangerously close to linking this back to Manchester run about run about in a way that's certain under football teams that's the headline of the podcast from producer Neil run about quick sorry Greg I agree it was a great match to watch but also it is still on something underlying feeling about it being a bit of an exhibition because it doesn't yeah Ali's right like you could see that PSG the dynamic that they have with their domestic game and European football means they do treat this as the most important thing but so many other clubs across Europe don't elite clubs because it doesn't really mean much and it's also interesting how many players are getting injured in these games that essentially don't really matter like Saka Clarice-Gellia Dembele Marquinhos us Danny Olmo all got injured in a game that ultimately didn't matter.

46:29Yeah, that didn't mention the Bukayo Saka injury. Arsenal will be sweating on that one. Gary Jacob, though, on the Times website in the coming days, wondering whether that might mean we might see some more Max Dowman. That could potentially be an exciting thing to offset the Bukayo Saka injury. You'll see Nani Maduweke. You'll see Nani Maduweke. Yeah, but you could see Max Dowman. You might. You'll see Nani Maduweke. Just before we move on to the weekend and the Premier League action and that win for Tottenham on Monday night. Greg, are you excited about Bournemouth AC Milan tonight? Indeed. Should be a good one.

47:01It should, Jen. Ruben Amaran back in town. That's interesting timing. Wait, we're going to work Manchester United. Sorry, sorry. For goodness sake, how are we managed to do it? I just wanted to ask if you were excited about going to Bournemouth. I am, I am, I am. Martin and I were talking about this beforehand. You know, people referencing when Milan went to play Portsmouth. I think it was 18 years ago. But the sort of landscape has shifted dramatically in that time and Bournemouth are probably, I've not shed the money in league, I'll do that before I go, but they'll be close. They'll be just about as rich a team as AC Milan now.

47:30So you can't even go to it and think, are Bournemouth favourites? Yeah. Quite possibly. I'm looking forward to that reference in the second paragraph of Gregor's bats report. Let's talk about another club that's badly run. Why not? We'll just work in another reference to Manchester United. Struggling down the bottom of the table. Tottenham Hotspur are off and running. Roberto Deserve's season, this big season of huge pressure, kick-started with a win against Coventry on Monday night. Dayan Kulisevsky off the bench. James Madison on the pitch scoring. Nice to see them back. But Gregor, huge, huge for Roberto Deserbi to get this win.

48:06Certainly was, yeah. And like the real difference was, because I think they've played as well as this in other games. Well, just to interrupt you on that, I often reference the colleagues that I have on the sports desk who are Tottenham fans. One of them, I sit next to him all the time. He was at the game, Nick. I came in the next day and was like, congratulations, your off-roaring event, worst performance of the season. And that's from someone who's watched all the games. So, yeah. I'm just allying it to your point. Yeah, there were spells in the match when Coventry looked good and they could have scored.

48:38But there were just moments, like Madison's moment from nothing, really. Beautiful finish. Marmouche introducing a moment. He's not done. I thought I'm shut, really. That's ultimately what's won in the game. but yeah however they won a game they had to win a game and get a monkey off the back and yeah some positive like vibes in the stadium finally after so long with James Madison's first start and the impact he made and as you say Kulicevsky coming out at the end and getting a huge cheer so like some positivity at last if they've got those two players and if they can keep them fit and I'm not suggesting that a couple of minutes for Kulicevsky after that lengthy break means that he's suddenly going to play all the games all the time but they are two huge players for this Tottenham team aren't they Martin?

49:23I mean and the type of two players that as Gregor says can produce these moments that do carry you up the league. Yeah I'd like to see Madison and I hope that why he has taken so long to come back this season when he first came on on August the 22nd he's taken five matches he's played 90 minutes of football as a substitute before he started and I'm very much hoping that that was caution to do with the significance of the injury that he had, the ACL injury, rather than Roberto De Zerbi's preference because I really like James Madison. I think he makes a huge difference to Tottenham and I think they look a better team when they've got him.

50:09And I'd like to see him in the team. And I think when he's in the team, they look better. and you see them going forward from that I would think so it seems like a rare sense of joy doesn't it he's just one of those players who like he makes the game seem joyful and happy and fun so like I don't need that he's a lovely lovely bloke in the mix zone even if he doesn't want to stop he'll have a joke with you he's just a nice guy that is a good list I've often often John McGinn's your favourite obviously Greg for many reasons but I mean that is a sign of someone just as a human He has emotional intelligence He understands that you're stood there for ages in the cold and he at least will come and say He once said sorry guys sorry guys my family are waiting for me and I said oh James we're your family too and he laughed you know he didn't go oh what a weirdo he laughed basically anyone laughs at my jokes I like them I think they're a great player and they should win the Ballon d 'Or one day Yeah that is the scenery Even his celebration was kind of like it was half a The big moment for him was half apologetic.

51:15He was playing against the club that he's brought through as a kid. Also probably a bit of sorry it's taken so long guys. Yeah. But they've got Chelsea at the weekend. What a really interesting flash that could be at Stamford Bridge. Probably say a lot about where both sides are at. Martin, you've written about Chelsea and their potential. We referenced it on Monday's show. Yeah, potential. Tottenham having got that win may be quite a good game for Roberto De Zerbi this one or am I getting carried away do we think? Because it's one of many big games this weekend but it's the 5.30 on Saturday could go anyway in my opinion Yeah it could I mean if Chelsea if Chelsea can keep that defence playing at the level they played at against Everton Caicedo staying on the pitch not getting himself suspended this season you know I think they'll be in the top four I think they'll be a Champions League team and you never know because obviously at the top you never know where Man City are going to end up this season and it's balls in the air, basically.

52:15So it's a big game for Chelsea, this. Because you thought maybe there was a corner turned against Everton, but it needs to be made. You can't have, you can't thrive if you've got, you're in the top three for goals scored and the bottom three for goals conceded, which is where Chelsea are. So if you can get rid of that, if you can get rid of that downside, then you're you're flying it's only Man City and Brighton that have scored more goals in Chelsea this season shall be Alonso I want a 1-0 I want a 4-3 Craig I was going to say the only thing for Tottenham is they're racking up a few injuries Tosin came off Robertson came off Doggy, Poro Bergwahl Siemens long term Muggett long term Savio Audeberg yeah feels like a rule doesn't it they have to have at least six or seven first team players out at the same time but let's hope there are no more injuries for Dejan Kulicewski or James Madison we will leave it there a jam-packed show.

53:11Thank you very much to Gregor Robertson, Martin Samuel, and Alison Rudd. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.

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