Who's staying up - West Ham or Spurs?

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1:06Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Last minute drama, huge controversy and almost unbelievable moments. And that was all just York v Rochdale. It was another thrilling weekend of football and on today's show we'll discuss two FA Cup semi-finals as Manchester City and Chelsea triumph. Arsenal returned to the top of the Premier League table and there were big wins at the bottom for Nottingham Forest, West Ham and Tottenham. If that wasn't enough, we'll also discuss the latest in the Scottish Premiership and hear about an exclusive chat with Roy Hodgson.

1:37I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd. The football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Spurs, it's Tom Ornutt. And the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual. Team, hello and welcome to this lovely new studio. Look at this. It's gorgeous. Isn't it magnificent? Listen, the only downside, I've already made a complaint to Neil, there's no pointless pastries in the middle. That's the only downside. Yeah, that would be lovely, Gregor. Thank you so much. Now, there's loads and loads to get stuck into.

2:07I was debating this when we were just talking about it before we hit record. Where do we start? I think it has to be relegation. Has to be relegation, not just because of the seismic results this weekend, but because we had two men who were at the big games. Tom, I have to start with you. We've mentioned it on the show so often. in your time covering Tottenham, you've probably seen a lot more tougher times as well as a Europa League victory. You've finally seen them win a game. Yeah. It was a weird feeling, Tom. Weird feeling at the end. You must first. How did you feel? How did you feel? I had to sort of really remember how to write a positive match.

2:41There were no boos to kind of, you know, calibrate. Far from it. Lots of cheers. They were on the pitch, quite literally on the pitch. Yeah. I mean, I'm good at that because at full-time Whistle Whispers, you're always looking at the players to see who has sort of got their hands behind their heads. Yeah, bit of colour. Who was arguing with the supporters. Whereas this time, you know, I was looking at them and there, you know, there are certain players who are sort of, you know, clenching their fists. And, you know, so beautiful scenes. First time since December the 28th in the league. Yep. First time in 118 days.

3:09We've literally sent people to the moon and back since Spurs last won a Premier League match. So all these things. And I guess it was slightly bittersweet. I mean, is that a kind of very Spurs-y thing to say? that after such a long winless run, there was still, I think, a sense in the stadium because I wrote in the report that it was almost kind of a final day feel, you know, because you could tell that because West Ham are playing at the same time, the supporters in the stands were very aware of what was going on in London at the London Stadium. So when Spurs scored and then Everton equalized, there was this real sense of, wow, this could be a game changing afternoon.

3:45And of course, West Ham went and got a 95th minute winner and the Wolves fans were then and kind of giving it back to the Spurs fans. So everyone at Molineux was very aware of what was happening in the other match. So I think coming away from it, you could feel De Zerbi afterwards in his press conference was slightly kind of like, it could have been better. And clearly two big injuries with Xavi Simons and Solanke. But generally the most important thing I think for Spurs, aside from all those other factors, they got a victory. And De Zerbi has been telling us for the last couple of weeks that he believes a win for this team can be transformative.

4:18Yeah. I mean, let's stay on the positives then. Because as you say, we've had the Xavi Simmonds injury confirmed this morning out for the rest of the season and the World Cup. But before we get onto that, I mean, what was the positives from this game? A clean sheet, obviously. That will stand them in good stead for the rest of the season, won't it? If they can keep playing like this in terms of the fight and the spirit, so many of these cliches that we talk about at this stage of the season. Yeah. What did you see from them? You know what? They didn't play as well as they did against Brighton, right?

4:44When they drew that game against Brighton, And I felt like you saw a performance there. You could see some aspects of De Zerbe's coaching. You know, they passed the ball a lot better. They were a lot braver in midfield. This game was a lot more scrappy. It has to be said, like, you look at the performance. I don't think Spurs fans will come away from that game thinking, wow, we played fantastically. You know, we're really on the up. It was a really scruffy game. And Spurs started in the first half an hour. And De Zerbe said this afterwards, and I think it's fair, that they played pretty well in the first 20 minutes, half an hour.

5:14You know, they were on top. They were really assertive, created two or three decent chances. But the thing with the Spurs team is that when they don't score, or as often happens, the other team scores, you can feel the kind of mental load on them. I think after half an hour, they thought, we haven't scored yet. This is Wolves. This is a football match. They're suddenly having chances. You could feel this kind of nervousness in the players. They congeal. They're doing things. They look awkward. Their body shape looks awkward. They don't look like Premier League footballers suddenly, you know? And I have to say that West Ham then scored early in the second half.

5:49And for most of the second half, Tottenham were four points behind in the relegation battle. And so that goal that comes out of nowhere from a corner, Palinja again, and by the way, he scored some really important goals this season. You asked me what the positives are, Tom. Just the result. You know, just the win. You've mentioned it so many times. Let's bring in Gregor, because you were at the London Stadium for West Ham. Yeah. Was it the same thing? Did you have the same thing? Absolutely. was that last day feel going round the ground. Well, yeah, I mean, it was such a bad first half. And then West Ham came out for the second half and we're just like, there's so much more energy and zip about the play.

6:25Scored, Thomas Suchek headed in, I think it was the 51st minute. And then there was real, like, the detonation of noise at that moment was remarkable. Everyone knew how big it was. And then it was like, everyone's checking the game going on at Molineux. It seemed to be really cagey. and then the game progressed the game progressed and then there was just those those few minutes and there were only a few minutes between the moment that Paulina scored and Dewsbury Hall equalised and it's just like suddenly there was a sort of dazed panicked feel in the stadium but West Ham found something and they went again and as I kind of said in my report they've got all their big players are stepping up to the plate at this moment like Jared Bowen has got another two assists the cross that went into the back post you see him kind of straining every sinew in his neck to try and get that headed back across goal to make sure that they had one last chance.

7:19And then the stadium held its breath collectively as it like bounced and Callum Wilson stepping onto it. And he just shot, he fired it into the ground and then boom, it was like euphoria. So just great drama for those, I think it was eight minutes? Eight minutes when it just, I started my report like it was from joy to despair and right back again. And it was just all in those eight minutes. And I feel like we're just going to have that for the next four games. Well, I was going to say, yeah. Listening to you both talking, right, it seems to me, if you hadn't watched either team all season, but suddenly you were interested in who might go down, you would say it's going to be Spurs, because Spurs sound like the dad at the wedding, who is normally a great raconteur, but faced with the nerves of the 100 people in the room, can't quite string a sentence together because he's suddenly very nervous about being in front of people and the stakes and not wanting to spoil his daughter's big day and all this sort of stuff.

8:16Whereas you, Gregor, were at a match where people realised the nervousness but were able to act on it in a positive way and improve their performances and actually become cohesive. So West Ham is surely the team that's going to cope with the nerves of the run-in better. I absolutely think that's true. I feel like West Ham now are really comfortable in their own skin. I'm not sure that's true. It's true that what Tom said last week, he thought, oh, this looks a bit more like a Roberto de Zerbe team. If this is going to be their approach, really going at it to try and stay up, it could be exciting.

8:53And we didn't really see that in this game. West Ham are really content to be compacted, being the same team for three weeks in a row. It's like 4-4-1-1. They don't care if it's making the game pretty ugly for a large period But they also know that they have match winners And Nuno said that in his programme notes as well He said, we know that if we have these things We have unity, discipline, we're compact, we're solid at the back We have match winners, and it's true And I think that's going to be West Ham's approach going forward Against anyone as well Which of the two managers is going to be capable of turning what is and everyone's banging on about almost how hilarious it would be if a club of Spurs stature with the staging they have go down.

9:38But it'd be a pretty enormous thing for West Ham as well, the repercussions. Which manager is turning the enormity of that into a positive? Do you not think... I feel that West Ham have made it more into... He has had longer, absolutely. And Gregor, just to... It took a long time to get to this point, you should see. Just to further illustrate your point, only Daniel Farquhar at Leeds with nine is the only manager who's named an unchanged starting 11 more than Nuno at West Ham this season and just in terms of they remain unbeaten in each of their last six Premier League home games which is another feature you picked out in your piece for the game today that suddenly turned the London Stadium into this fortress when it was kind of the source of so much discontent and oh the atmosphere is terrible and things you know they've suddenly got a home ground and a home crowd everything seems to be behind them yeah I remember I was at the game at the start of January against Nottingham Forest where they lost 2-1 and there was kind of moments in that game too where there was really that marginal offside against Castellanos when it looked like West Ham were taking were going to take the lead I think and then Forest went up and scored and there were seven points from safety at that point the atmosphere was borderline mutinous and he just thought I think they lost eight of 11 at home up to that point in the season and since then no one has beaten them in the league even the only team that has beaten them is Leeds and it needed extra time and penalties.

10:58So it's a remarkable turnaround and there is a change in the atmosphere. It's not, don't get me wrong, the first half, the fans respond to what they're seeing and the first half, you didn't see much and it was the same sort of, you know, you hear the hum of chatter and it's a strange atmosphere. We've spoken about that many, many times. But in the second half, he played with much more energy, he scored the goal and there was a real connection. Callum Wilson referenced it too. He's like, it feels like the last few months, the players and the fans have come together and that will be powerful because Nuno referenced that several times in the post-match press conference the home factor we've got Arsenal to come at home and Leeds on the final day like I think West Ham take four points from those two games that will put them in a great position I mean I'd say just to push back on that a little bit I listened to a lot of fans on the radio on the way home and they were complaining about the style of football in the first half I mean, if you, I think Gregor's right, if you score the goal and you win the game, Nuno's style of football, you know, delivers, right?

12:00It's fine, yeah. But West Ham fans, and we can talk about, you know, long term, who cares? I can see next season they'll be saying, you know, we've had enough of this. Like, can we be slightly more assertive, more positive? In a relegation battle, I guess, everyone gets behind it. And to some extent, the important thing is the players, right? The players buy into it. But they haven't lost many games. They haven't won many games either. You know, West Ham, looking here, they've won three games since the start of February. You know, so you can, playing like that, it's always fine margins. You're always nil-nil, one-nil, one-all, get trying to sneak away.

12:28Which can work, it can work. But in this relegation battle, where teams are actually winning games now, they can, you know, a draw here and there might not be enough of West Ham. Yeah, it's going to be fine margins, no doubt. We should say back to you, Tom, in terms of Tottenham as well. And I mentioned that Xavi Simmonds injury. It is a remarkable injury list that Tottenham are facing and that Roberto Di Zerbi's got to deal with, just in terms of some of these points we've made about, you know, match winners. they're missing most of their match winners. You know, Vicario, Udogi, Davis, Romero, Saar, Madison, Kulisewski, Xavi Simons, Koudis, Odeber and Solanke.

12:59Good too. I mean, that's basically an entire team of potential match winners, Alison, to your point about some of the players that they've not got in there. So is Deserby maybe, and I think Gregor, you just mentioned it, already having to go, well, I can't do my Deserby tactics. I'm going to have to go a bit more Nuno and maybe try and win 1-0 because I'm missing all these players. Yeah, I mean, even since just as Erby has been there in the building, what, now three or four weeks, you know, they lost Romero, they lost Kudus, they lost Xavi Simons, they lost Solanke. You know, probably, you might say, four of their best players in the team.

13:30He's not a good luck charm, is he? No. So, I mean, you know, what he took the job on, you know, it's a very different job already than what he took on. I mean, this has been a problem for Spurs for way too long. You know, we were talking about this, I think, this time last year when Postacoglu's team was, you know, unravelling in the league and they had to prioritise, you know, the Europa League, mainly because they didn't have enough players to sustain it in two competitions. This has been a problem now for Spurs for even going back to Postacoglu's first season. I don't know if you remember, you know, when Madison sort of and Romero and Van der Ven all kind of got injured at the same time in December and the second half of the season also kind of faded away.

14:06It's not bad luck, you know, and I suspect other teams will say, well, we've got injuries as well. And that is, of course, the case. But Spurs for so long have had not only the number of injuries but the the length of time acls hamstring injuries knees i mean is there any suggestion like what can you you know it's not bad luck what what what did you see they're not trying to get simons to kind of get up and try and run after he'd just done his acl yeah there was some confusion about what there's a fairly simple test for an acl on the knee like it isn't enough to say it's bad luck anymore because that the the way you analyse players before you sign them, you can pick up future injuries from the way they run.

14:46And it's almost as if you think that they're not organised properly. If you're continually signing players who are susceptible to significant injuries, you're not applying the science that is now available. I mean, I think the European is clearly a factor. You know, you look at Spurs probably didn't have the squad quality or quantity wise to kind of compete in the Champions League and the Premier League this season. Similarly, last year going so deep in the Europa League, you could say that. I think under Apostol Coglu, you would always say the way they trained, the way they played, the number of sprints, the real sort of high-intensity tactics.

15:18But then the idea was that Frank would come in and be a slightly more of a pragmatist, slightly more analytical, scientific approach that would kind of maybe rule that out. So ultimately, it's something that they knew happened last season and they needed to fix it. And they haven't. It's been even worse this season. Yeah, let's bring Forrest in here because they had the game on Friday night. A remarkable, massive win at Sunderland. Leeds, West Ham and Forest have a combined one defeat in their last 15 games. So just this idea of what Tottenham are up against in terms of their injuries as well.

15:48You've got three teams and we're bringing Leeds as well, Alison, because you were at their Cubs semi-final. All the teams are down the bottom and are now winning all of a sudden. I mean, is anyone thinking differently how they were maybe a week ago when all of us on this podcast and lots of our peers in the media and maybe fans as well were going, all right, it's down to two. It's a straight shootout versus West Ham and Tottenham. Are we now looking above us, above them, sorry, and going, ooh, actually, Leeds aren't 100 % safe. Dare I be completely mad and say Newcastle on 42 points? That only works.

16:21I mean, it's seductive proposition, Tom. I'll give it to you. Almost like I'm an editor trying to peddle a good narrative towards the end of the season. It is a seductive, because, I mean, we've got an exciting denouement. We don't actually need to bring in more clubs to make it exciting, but it is, Sherry on the top, the idea that Newcastle could from nowhere. But the only way that works is if you think that Spurs are going to put together a run of wins. Yeah. That's where you start. None of those... But they have to start a run of wins with a win. And they've got four points from two games. But we have very astutely dissected that and concluded it doesn't mean as much as West Ham's victory.

17:00I think we've concluded that. And you can bring in Leeds here as well, because this was the subject of your piece from the Cup semi-final, that you'd say maybe this, they hoffed and they puffed, didn't they, against Chelsea and ultimately failed to really kind of land a proper blow in a game where they were up against a team that had been for a bit of a chaotic week. But they're on 40 points. Tottenham are six points behind them. You know, Forrest, after a brilliant run that they've been on, five points ahead. Are we still all saying then it's a straight shootout between West Ham and Tottenham?

17:28Or do we think teams above them should be worried? Obviously, when Forrest thrashed Sunderland 5-0, that narrative lasted for 24 hours. And I think when both teams won, you look at the table and you go, it's not that straightforward. I think maybe after the next round of fixtures, it will kind of crystallise a bit more because Leeds play Burnley at home. I think Leeds could be safe by this weekend. And then, again, I come back to Spurs. Aston Villa is interesting because there's the added context it's between the two Europa League semi-final games but Unai Emery does not take any game white way he's a diligent manager he's like you could see how upset he was with their defeat at the weekend because he said the Premier League is the priority he keeps saying that even though they're in the semi-final I don't at this moment in time have faith in Tottenham going to Aston Villa and getting three points so I think after this weekend we could see how stark it is whereas you do have faith in West Ham I know you said it before but just to really drive it home having seen them a lot this season and you've kind of seen their trajectory you think they even with games like Arsenal and things you do have that they go to Brentford and I know Brentford have been over the course of a season one of the hardest places to go not being in great shape recently a lot of draws but yeah I could see West Ham going and getting the win that they need at Brentford and those don't have at this moment the same faith in Spurs I mean Leeds' fate is very much in their own hands because they play Burnley at home If they mess that up, then they've got Spurs and West Ham in the final three.

19:01So then they are in the shootout, to be honest. Forest, you would think have got a decent cushion, but they're playing Chelsea, Newcastle, United and Bournemouth, the last four. Not many points in that, in my opinion, quite possibly, with the Europa League semi-final in between. Spurs have got Leeds at home and also Everton at home on the last day. I agree the Villa game is tough, but it lands quite nicely and they're playing Chelsea and who knows what Chelsea are like right now. West Ham, their fixtures are quite tough. Brentford away, Arsenal, Newcastle away and then Leeds at home on the last day.

19:36I think it's open. I do. I think it's wide open. I think Spurs coming off the back of a good performance against Brighton and a good result against Wolves, I think they'll have a bit of belief there. And the one thing I think they do have at the moment is they have, you know, we talk about Bayern with Nuno with West Ham. the Tottenham players are buzzing about De Zerbe. You know, they're really enjoying the coaching. Suddenly they feel like they've got a grown-up in charge, you know, and I think they will feel that that's their kind of X factor going into the final four or five games. And clearly, you know, he's got a big job on with the injuries and everything.

20:07But I think there's a bit more belief than maybe we're saying, I suppose. You're a grown-up in charge of what compared to Thomas Frank, who's the most grown-up of man he'd been? I think I was waiting for that. As you said it, I was thinking, please clarify that you're talking about Igor Tudor. Please clarify that you're talking about your Tudor. I could feel the ice. Am I right? I think a manager that they feel like is an elite coach. And whether that's right or wrong, you know, we can talk about Thomas Frank, but they feel like someone who they really believe in, in terms of his coaching and his tactics.

20:37Just to go a bit more detail on Forrest, Gregor, because you're going to be at the Europa League game against Aston Villa. It is a remarkable situation that they're in. But Vitor Pereira, with the form that they've been in, and I remember you talking on this show about the good performance they put in against Liverpool when they didn't get any points and they lost late on in that game. This is such a strange scenario for them to be in, but they will be desperate to kind of get survival because they will be looking at the Europa League and think, if we get past Villa, we can win this. We can win a trophy and finish, what, they'll do a Tottenham.

21:09It'll become the pattern of Premier League teams to finish 17th or 16th and win the Europa League. Yeah, it's a remarkable situation. and they needed these two wins. The 4-1 win against Burnley and then a 5-0. It's won a lot of goals as well. And there's been a bit of a tweak at half-time against Burnley. Morgan Rodgers went on the left, came up on Jesus and Wood up top. Morgan Gibbs-White. Sorry. Morgan Gibbs-White went on the left. Jesus came on up top, so it's almost like a 4-4-2. And they've just been ripping it up in front of goal. Sunderland played into their hands a little bit in terms of the way they tried to play it from the back in Forest Press but they're in really good shape they look in great spirits and it's true yes they would love to be able to focus on the semi-final and as I say these two wins have helped but they can't it's all in now and everything it's got to be there's been kind of chopping and changing in terms of team selection up until this point there won't be any of that now it's just all focus on the next game yeah like any good host I'm going to return to a theme of last Monday's show, not because of my own biases towards Morgan Gibbs-White, but because listener Adam got in touch, Gregor, to say, and he might have said this beforehand, Tom, I can't believe Gregor didn't agree with you about Morgan Gibbs-White.

22:26He doesn't know what he's talking about. But he definitely did say that, Tom, with Cole Palmer struggling for fitness and form, with Morgan Rodgers and Jude Bellingham appearing to be two goals preferred, shouldn't Morgan Gibbs-White be in that World Cup squad? So, Tom and Alison, just wanted your thoughts on this. We debated this on last week's show with Johnny and Gregor. Your general view, Gregor, was, as ever, hugely complimentary of a player but not quite making the squad, which seems to be a general kind of Gregor Robertson answer. There's a little pat on the back. Well done, but not quite good enough.

22:51Would you have him in your World Cup squad, Tom? Well, yeah, I would because, I mean, when I interviewed Fabian Herzler, he was explaining why Danny Welbeck should be in the squad. It was mainly because of his personality and what he would bring to the group because he's seen him in action as somebody who does more than just play football. He brings players together and is very good at dealing with players who aren't being picked. and there'll be two teams for England and you need to make sure all your subs are happy and he'd be the player that made sure any sort of B-match training went incredibly well.

23:23And I think the same with Gibbs White. He's somebody who brings such joy and positivity and a freedom. I never got the impression watching him play through his career because I tipped him for greatness many years ago. I never felt he was somebody... He's taken the setbacks really well. He's such a... I love his attitude. Yes, so do I. So when it's going well, yeah, he looks like a world beater, but we all know he's form dips. And as Gogo says, maybe he's not quite reached the consistency where you think, oh, he's going to be a first choice pick for Thomas Tuchel. But I would, if I was putting together a squad, I'd want him in it for his personality.

23:59Tom? He's not better than... He's not better than Foden, is he? It's the old head tilt. On this form? On this form? He's not better than Palmer. He's not better than Rodgers. Even on form? He's not better than Bellingham. But even on form lately though, Phil Foden looks like the complete opposite of what we've known from Phil Foden. Yeah, of all the players Tom said there, I think Foden's one that wouldn't... He might not be going anyway. Yeah. But I think fundamentally he's right about the other three, but you're right, he scored more goals than anyone in 2026. Yeah. So if he has a really, really strong end to the season...

24:32And actually camp for something. Well, yeah, Tuchel seems to talk about picking players on form a lot. It's just whether he'll do it or not. I'm going to keep pushing this, So Adam, thank you very much for getting in touch with me. Any of you listening or watching can get in touch with me as well, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. So just to finish then, Tom, you think it is wide open. Alison and Gregor, you maybe think it's just between those two teams who finishes eight teams then at the end of the season. Tom? West Ham. Alison? Spurs are going down. Gregor? I think Spurs. I'm going to say Newcastle, just for a laugh.

25:03I only don't think that Newcastle fans, or maybe it could come true. We'll see in the coming weeks. Let's move up the table and just look at a couple of results before we take a quick break. We were talking about this before the start of the show. Liverpool getting an important win against Crystal Palace. Manchester United, of course, playing tonight. Fulham upsetting the odds, as they often do under Marco Silva, Alison. Beating Aston Villa, as Gregor said there, Unai Emery very upset at this defeat. The Marco Silva situation, Alison, is a real kind of under-the-radar managerial situation, isn't it?

25:33We've had Andoni Iriola declare. It's a bit like a kind of political leadership contest, isn't it? You know, Arayola said, I'm off, but I don't know where I'm going. Glasner said, I'm off and kind of sounds like he'll go anywhere that will have him. You know, and got Marco Silva just quietly kind of taking it all in. He's done an amazing job, but we don't know whether he'll be at Fulham next season, do we? No, well, I think I have a lot of sympathy with Marco Silva because it's very easy to say, well, if you say you're having chats, why haven't you signed anything then? If the chats are going well, why haven't you committed then?

26:04And he has been consistently let down slightly by negotiations over his contract. Every time he renegotiates, we all assume that means that Fulham are going to invest a bit more and invest earlier in the transfer windows than they never do. I think it's a reasonable squad and it has some depth, the Fulham squad, more than you might think if you're just sort of tossing around who's in good shape going into next season. They have depth, but it's a slightly aging squad. it could do with a bit of pizzazz and a bit more maybe input from Silva in terms of who he brings in. And I think he sort of gets hints that that's going to be the case, but it's Groundhog Day.

26:45It's the same situation. And I think with a bit more investment and backing, he could have guaranteed Fulham European football this season because there's something... I mean, he still can. I mean, he's two points behind six and it's a really tight bunch, isn't it? Brighton in six on 50. Then you've got Bournemouth, 49. Chelsea, 48. Brentford, 48. They play tonight, of course. Fulham on 48. Then Everton. Sunderland, still not out of it. I mean, it's incredibly tight for that sixth place Europa League spot. What was significant, I think, about the result against Aston Villa was we all assumed, I think everybody who spoke about the game before the game assumed Fulham had gone into that mode they go in towards the end of the season where they just drift away.

27:27They don't think, oh, we can just see Europe on the horizon. Let's go for it. they go a bit inhibited and lacking in vitality and just don't give it all at the end of the season because they just look spent. So I think most people are expecting them not to get a result against Villa. But all the old things we love about Fulham came to the fore in that game. There is an absolute simplicity to the way Marco Silva sets up his team. They attack with intelligence, but don't go overboard. They defend with intelligence, but don't become defensively dull there is a and that simple way of playing means it ebbs and flows and there are they are it wasn't the game of the weekend but i found it utterly absorbing i love the rhythm of way full and play i think i think they deserve they deserve to be back in europe i love watching them too yeah i love the way that their fullbacks attacked kind of bit kind of old school as well um and i agree like that whenever you get the match list they're one of the one one of the teams you're always always delighted to get because there's always great entertainment and that's like that's to do with the with Silva's approaches it's they're never it doesn't matter who they're playing against they never kind of sit back and try and try and hit them on the counter or anything like that they they go toe to toe and particularly at Craven Cottage so he's done a great job it's just is there a bit of you know has he been around too long is a bit snobbery about it you know you've had chances elsewhere as I've listed obviously in a kind of list there with Iriola and Glasner as three managers managing kind of clubs that for a lazy assessment are roughly of the same kind of band that mid-table band that might break into the Europa League I mean could all three of them be managing Champions League clubs are they all good enough to manage Champions League clubs well it's interesting that post-Frank I think it's going to be really fascinating to see how the big clubs react to these two or three managers now in the Premier League and whether or not there is a sort of developing feeling that the kind of middle class managers in the Premier League, they don't make that step up, you know, and there are lots of unfortunate examples, you know, where that just has not worked.

29:34And you wonder now if those big teams are going to start to think actually experience in Europe in Ligue 1 with like Marseille or Borussia Dortmund is actually the better springboard to a top six job in the Premier League than, for example, managing Fulham or Bournemouth or Brentford. I personally think it's probably time for Marco Silva to move on. You know, I think he's been there a long time. Maybe even Fulham fans might say that they wouldn't mind something, you know, a change of air in the summer. They wouldn't. But I do think it's interesting as well with the European context, because if you look at now for these teams, to get into Europe basically means you have a really good chance of winning a really big European trophy, which wasn't the case a few years ago when the teams are dropping the Champions League into the Europa League, you couldn't be Nottingham Forest and think you could win the Europa League.

30:21But Marco Silva, if Fulham get into the Conference League or the Europa League this season, there's a massive carrot there for him to stay on. So there's a trickle-down effect, I think, where a lot of really good coaches might stay a little bit longer at these mid-table Premier League teams in the hope you get into the Europa League and then you can put a really good European trophy on your CV. Yeah. Guys, what do we think about that idea that those three managers, and to Tom's point, which I think is a really good one, the kind of post-Thomas Frank at Tottenham effect where teams may be going, oh, I'm not quite sure.

30:49It's also about time as well, isn't it? You've got to give these guys time. Thomas Frank didn't maybe get the time that some people thought he deserved at Tottenham. And style of football. And I think that's right back to Silva. I agree, Fulham are brilliant to watch. I love watching them. Does that work at Liverpool, you know, at Anfield where they want to see a team go for it right from the start? You know, Spurs, for example, you know, Arsenal, you know, where they want the team always to be on the front foot. Does that translate? I'm not sure. Maybe. Alison? I think if you're a bigger club than Fulham or Bournemouth or whatever, what's attractive about Marco Silva is that he was a bit flighty when he started out and, you know, quick to move, quick to shift, quick to be a career-minded guy.

31:30But he's got longevity now. Yeah. He's had a very good relationship with the ownership of Fulham. That means a lot, I think, if you're looking to a point. You don't want somebody that's, there's been so much friction between owners and managers. You want somebody who you can build a relationship with. So I would be very tempted if I was a bigger club. Yeah. Gregor? Yeah, I think actually of the three you were talking about there, a big part of it is style of football. And, you know, so I'm saying with that work, I still think, I think it's more likely to work perhaps than a Glasner or an A-Riola who really, most of their coaching is focused on what they do when they don't have the ball.

32:10And, you know, that's been great for their clubs and it's very effective, but that's an issue when you step up to a club that's expected to have a lot of the ball. Like, Iriola, I would say, is maybe slightly different because I think he's quite special. But I think Silva deserves a step up. I'm not sure it's going to be a step up to a really, truly elite club, but I think it could be a club that has slightly higher ambitions than Fulham. Yeah, really interesting. We're going to take a quick break. Loads more still to come, including the FA Cup semi-finals. Time for a little quiz question to take us to the break.

32:42And it's a nice, easy one, Greg. I'm sure you'll get this straight away. Chelsea reached their 17th FA Cup final with a win against Leeds. How many teams have reached the final more? And who are they? Find out after the break.

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34:49Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tom Ornott, Alison Rudd, and Gregor Robertson with me. I think we just about got the answer to the quiz question. I think, Gregor, you came in with... Who did I get? I think you said Arsenal. Yeah. It was an easy one, Arsenal, wasn't it? Arsenal's the easy one. And Man United are the other two clubs who've reached FA Cup finals more often than Chelsea. Just before we talk about the FA Cup semi-finals, it's time for a new part of the show, which is instigated by a very upset listener who a couple of weeks ago said, we are not talking about the most exciting Scottish premiership title race in decades.

35:21And you're completely right. Which is why I hand over now to my Scott, Gregor Robertson, do 90 seconds on the Scottish title race. Go. it's on it is on it is officially on I was watching it yesterday and I've got to say it's thrilling stuff it is it is Hearts moved three points clear with another late late win in Edinburgh Derby against nine man Hibs nine men nine men for literally about at least an hour yeah ridiculous ridiculous they've won 23 points from the 83rd minute onwards extraordinary extraordinary number and a lot of them and actually it's not the first time they scored late against Hibs this season as well so great piece by Michael Grant I would point people to very quickly about the dread on the other side of Edinburgh that Hearts potentially winning the league there were some amazing cutaways were you watching it to fans in the stands there was a son a father and son and they were both just like this no when the Hearts goal went in were you like can we leave?

36:17a draw would have been good for them but no as it is because just earlier that day Rangers were the first in the three horse race to really stumble lost three 3-2 to Motherwell courtesy of a 90th minute goal Celtic beat Falkirk 3-1 so Celtic are three points back but they've got an inferior goal difference of five Rangers are now four points behind Hearts but they've got a slightly better goal difference and it's Hearts versus Tyncastle Hearts versus Rangers next at Tyncastle sorry so Hearts win that Rangers are done Hearts also play Celtic on the final day so it could be a goal difference it's incredibly exciting isn't it You've got this, and I mentioned York Rochdale as well, which obviously I'm sure listeners were all across at the weekend, an amazing finish to the National League title.

37:03We've got the title race, which we're going to come on to in a minute. I mean, Kit Shepard is writing his football newsletter, which subscribers can get exclusively through their time subscription, today about, I was chatting with him yesterday, and he was kind of saying, look, you know, I take Hamza's point that stylistically it's not the most fun, but my God, it's exciting now, isn't it? Jeopardy-wise, maybe this is the trade-off for all the kind of corners and throw-ins and everything. we've got absolutely thrilling finishes up and down the pyramid and in England and Scotland Absolutely and there's a good stat in Bill Edgar's column today that the champions are on course in the Premier League this is to finish on 82 points which is the lowest tally for 10 years and the final relegation place is set to be a club on 38 points which is the highest in 15 years so yeah we could talk about style but to have that kind of concertina effect in the Premier League creates more drama when we get to this point in the season Is there a club that has officially not got anything to play for?

37:56In terms of league places? In terms of something. I mean, no. That's a good question. Because, I mean, Palace have got the conference league. Palace have got the conference league. Palace have got the conference league. So they're allowed to be met. I'm trying to suggest that Newcastle are in a relegation fight. It's a stretch. It's a stretch. But listen, they'll be twitchy. At this moment in time, have something to be nervous about. Yeah. And it's the same, as you said, Tom, it's the same in every league. You look up and down the pyramid and there's just some great games next week. We're going to be talking about it on the EFL show in a couple of days' time, but the bottom of League Two, that is where the real party is.

38:27Gregor, just to finish your Scotland segment, I'm going to have to ask you to pick a winner at this stage, and I will ask you to change your mind every Monday. But at this stage, are you saying it's Hearts to lose? I think Hearts. I think they could do it, yeah. Exciting, very exciting indeed. Maybe not quite as exciting this weekend were the FA Cup semi-finals. Well, Southampton against City was pretty exciting. But let's start talking about Chelsea against Leeds. Alison, you were there for this one. I've alluded to it already in the first half of the show. I was slightly disappointed in Leeds and for Leeds and their fans that they didn't quite maybe deliver.

38:58Or is it more the case that we should be looking at this group of Chelsea players who completely phoned it in against Brighton and got their manager the sack and then suddenly, oh, it's Wembley, lads. Let's really put in a good performance. How did you assess this game? Both things can be true? Both things can be true. Deal with Leeds first. It's about what prism you look at them from. which I tried to address which is I still think even though Leeds lost you can come away and think God Daniel Farker is a great manager Yeah He's turned their league form around by tinkering with the formation amidst talk of him being sacked in late November Yeah And in this cup final he started with his new-ish formation which is three at the back and didn't work they ceded control in midfield.

39:52You can see what they were trying to do, bypass midfield and bully Chelsea because they've been a bit weird recently. It didn't work. So he didn't... It's been the season of managers refusing to back down. He changed it to four at the back and they got a bit more control. They did carve three good chances in that match and if Sanchez hadn't been on good form, it could have been very different so I think you come away thinking well they've got a they've got they've got a good astute manager there this is this is this is excellent I was slightly worried for them because just going just the act of going to Wembley is so draining just being at Wembley is draining let alone playing in the match you know it's big I mean it's it doesn't matter even if you slag off Wembley is not being fit for purpose as a national stadium because of all the little things that are wrong with it, it still has that sort of history and all of that makes you just feel exhausted.

40:53And if you go there and don't win, I think it can affect your form going forward. But as we've discussed, if you don't believe Spurs are going to go on a run, Leeds will be fine, even if it does make them wobble. So I ended up feeling quite in admiration of Leeds, even though I think it was a missed opportunity. But to go back to your question, it was almost laugh out loud how Chelsea turned around their attitude on the pitch. I'm glad you said that. I mean, I've got a copy of today's game supplement here. And I was in the office yesterday and I was slightly kind of mischievously suggesting that I could have made the headline.

41:29Fancied it today, did we lads? But, you know, we decided that it was a little bit too punchy. But it was remarkable, wasn't it? I mean, they played OK technically and in terms of how they tried to win the game. But the level of fight and desire that they showed, what was it, five days after that Brighton performance, which our colleague Pete Rutzler described as one of the worst performances he'd ever seen, ever seen. I mean, quite damning in a way, wasn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think it was. OK, you've got, on the one hand, you've got that Chelsea had the more expensively assembled and technically gifted players.

42:04So you would expect that to come to the fore. I was particularly impressed with Pedro Neto. I think he was a great signing for Chelsea and some Chelsea fans feel he's got the energy but not the skill. I thought he was excellent. It's like watching Aspera L 'Equeta from the stands. He just looked like the way he was tearing down the wing and the crosses he put in. Excellent. So they've got the skill. But it wasn't so much that as all that rolling around. Oh, goodness me. What it shows is that they cared. Yeah. That they wanted to win it. They were prepared to do the ugly stuff to make sure that they won the game.

42:43They looked like a team. They looked like they were playing for each other. There were lots of talking and interaction. There was all the things that were missing in the game against Brighton, where they were all sulking. Piling in for each other and like, get off and leave them alone. We're all teammates. It was, I don't know. is there another match this season where you can go from one match the very next and say wow that's different and it was incredibly are we being overly harsh on Chelsea here you know is this a just a modern state of the game you know Ruben Amorim Manchester United lots of other you know Tom you mentioned it Tottenham fully behind Deserby now having not been for Tudor am I being too harsh or is this I think you're being a bit harsh Tom I'd like to defend that Chelsea players a little bit and say that it's tough when you have a good manager who get sacked for not much reason in the middle of the season.

43:32They were going for the title in some of our eyes back in November or whatever it was. We were saying this looks like a pretty good Chelsea team. They're on the right trajectory. Maybe next season they could probably go for the title. Four months later, they're eighth in the table. I know it's easy to kind of say that they earn loads of money. They should be playing for the shirt 100 % every single time. Fine, I accept that completely. But I think Chelsea players are probably also looking around them and sort of thinking, what the hell is going on? You know, and that, unfortunately, they're human beings and that filtered through, it comes down to management, right?

44:04Like we see that in the clubs all up and down the league. Get a manager in who the players believe in, they play better. You know, and it's not just about, and this isn't to denigrate Rosinha in any way, it's to denigrate the upheaval at Chelsea and what it produces, which is obvious, which is that the team doesn't play as well. Yeah, Gregor? A bit conflicted on this one, aren't you? A former player wanting to stick up for his former colleagues, I agree with Tom's core point there. That's looking back. Although that kind of sums it up. That's looking back, you know, another step in the past to when Enzo Mareska left.

44:39And yes, I like the players have come out and said that they disagreed with, several of them, that they disagreed with that and they were upset by that. I don't think that really explains or should be able to explain the sort of difference in performance that Alison just outlined there. I don't think you should ever turn in a performance like the Brighton one and then be able to turn it around so dramatically within the space of a few days. And I don't know, why would they not have Liam Rossini so much? I don't really understand it. I know there was a change in personality, a change in training methods, and that's part of the upheaval that Tom's talking about.

45:25but for the performances to drop away so dramatically and then they've got a guy, Callum McFarlane, who can't really have much authority. Well, he was also part of Rosinia's team as well. It's not necessarily a departure. And I think just to your point, Tom, I was thinking about this as well and thinking, am I being too harsh here? And I tried to compare it to another manager that I've criticised on this show, Igor Tudor. I said very early on, I was like, mate, you're a vibes guy here. You're supposed to be lifting everything. The one thing you could say about Liam Rosinia was that he was giving everyone the hype and all the vibes.

45:56So even if you thought, this guy is not a level of manager that I need to take me to the Champions League glory, you could be like, wow, he's a good bloke. He's a good bloke and he's trying, surely, surely. No, but Tom, they're young. It's deliberately a young squad. Yeah. And what they need is someone with an aura and authority who isn't trying to be one of their mates. That was with Senior's floor. He was too pally, too many good vibes. What they needed was an authoritative father figure to come in with a big CV behind him so they could look up to him and believe that we're all young, we're all young.

46:34They did have a bloke called Thomas Tuchel a while ago, but they got rid of him. He was quite aura and a good CV behind him, didn't they? Yeah. It's the fundamental problem at Chelsea, isn't it? The players want someone with authority and kudos. The club wants someone who rolls into the system. Yeah. Yeah, well, we'll continue talking about Chelsea and their managerial situation, I'm sure. Let's talk about Manchester City's win against Southampton on Saturday. And this was another example of just thinking with this FA Cup final, what might have been, it could have been Southampton against Leeds.

47:02Instead, we've got Manchester City against Chelsea. Gregor, Southampton were excellent in this game. Anyone who's been listening to the AFL show in recent weeks with me and Gregor will not be surprised at that. They've been in unbelievable form under Tonda Eckhart. And they scored an unbelievable goal as well, Gregor. Absolute world, yeah. I mean You just thought You were like Oh my god I was discussing it With Kit Shepard And we were saying Was it too good a goal Because Kit was Kit was kind of saying They slightly lost their heads It was like Oh my god We scored one of the Great FA Cup goals And we're about 15 minutes from Beating Pep's Manchester City You know They kind of needed To be a deflected shot From inside the box Bobbling along And be like Right lads Back in Everyone back in Heads Keep your heads Yeah the leading Was too much It was too much It was too much of a good goal.

47:49Yeah, yeah. I know, I mean, they must really be looking back. Now, the scenes, the scenes inside Wembley were extraordinary and they must look back at this with some regret. But the thing you have to say is, like, Docky's goal was a moment of misfortune for Southampton and then the winner was an absolute worldie as well. So, you know, they're playing Manchester City, one of the best teams on the planet and that can happen and it's been an extraordinary run. And the thing that Kit wrote about today is the great kind of skill that Tony Eckhart has had so far is just always immediately instead of like trying to analyse the game it's just gone which was a huge moment for Southampton you know kind of got these retro strips from 50 years ago when they won the FA Cup as a second division side he thought his history was going to repeat itself he's completely consigned that to the past and focused on the future which is a hunt for the playoffs and promotion His touchline demeanour is astonishing isn't it?

48:45he just he just looks like well there was a great video a few weeks ago and you've seen it of someone walking past him and shaking hands and he kind of goes as soon as they've gone they're like here and he's left it he's like no interest in you anymore i don't even know who that was anyway yeah extraordinary and an extraordinary job he's doing just very quickly on manchester city because i'm going to bring in arsler in the title race now gregor you've keep kind of trying to push this although you've said in recent weeks that you're fancying city was this a game where you start going well city aren't imperious or was it the fact that pep made changes and left out big players that you think ah it was it was actually going to work as a warning sign to guardiola to be like no just make sure you keep picking sermenio gay harland and you'll be all right yeah i mean a lot of changes and they got the job done you know perhaps with a bit of fortune in the way it worked out in the end uh and then you hear pep talking afterwards about like the thing biggest thing he's learned since being in the Premier League is about how little you have to train and you have to think you know they've got to fit in now games because of a good in the cup final fitting games against Bournemouth against Crystal Palace into the schedule is going to be it does mean that you or me or any of us could be manager now of Manchester City all you do is is pick the team for the match and then give everyone the time oh you don't have to do anything you're home with the family that's what you said your cat Alison of course how are they getting on in fantasy football dipped okay slightly He won't be putting his CV into the mix this season then.

50:11Let's bring in Arsenal. They got a very nervy win against Newcastle. It was back to kind of the nervy, grinding out three points for Arsenal. This wasn't it after last weekend where we said, oh, they've lost, but they've lost brilliantly. Arsenal are back, everybody. This was not necessarily the case. A good goal from Eberici Eze, getting them the three points. How are we looking at it now? Arsenal back on top, symbolically, only knocked off the top spot for a few days. And yes, there's games in hand and things. Do you think that helps them in any way that they get to keep going back to the top, even if City then follow them and chip away?

50:40Tom, what do you think? I think it helps a bit, yeah. Obviously, at some point, they might need to not win games 1-0. You know, the goal difference is, I think, going to be a big factor. They might say this probably wasn't the game at home to Newcastle, but they don't look like a team. It does come down to that. It looks like, you know, you could see City going and pumping someone 5 or 6-0 at some point, you know, and saying, okay, we're going to step that up now. Arsenal just doesn't feel like they've got that kind of creative spark right now. I mean, to be fair, I think it was in the kind of, you know, series of brilliant Arsenal corners.

51:11That was a great corner, that one too. I mean, it was really well done and you could tell they worked on it and they picked out something that Newcastle didn't do very well. And the loveliest structure where all the Newcastle defenders are kind of following the ball and they ping it through it. You've got to respect that, haven't you? What do you say about corners that we've got to the end of April and they've thought, ah, we've got a new one off our sleeve. Fair enough. This is the thing with everyone pulling their hair out about set play domination in this new era. that football has a way of finding...

51:35If everyone knows Arsenal are going to put all their massive players in the six-yard box and a lot of teams are going to be good at defending it, it follows that they have someone with brains in Jova who says, well, that gives us another area of weakness to kind of exploit. So I think it's gone a bit overboard, this end of the Premier League as a beautiful spectacle this season. And I think football always finds a way to find a new sort of avenue. Yeah. Alison and Tom, you weren't on last Monday's show. I asked Greg and the guys, you know, kind of a bit of a quickfire. This was actually a couple of weeks ago, maybe, about the title race and how things were playing out.

52:16You know, Tom, you mentioned it there, coming down to goal reference. Do you think both teams will drop points in the run-in? And same question to you, Alison, do you think? Or do you think both of them will actually win all the games and it'll come down to goal reference? Why do you say that? I'm not in the school of thought that thinks both teams are going to drop loads of points. I think it might come down to one game. I could see City winning all of them and Arsenal drawing one. And that'll be it. I don't think it's going to be a topsy-turvy last few games. If I had to put money on it, I would say it'll be Arsenal who drop just the two points between now and the end of the season.

52:45Who knows, maybe against Fulham next weekend. Yes. So you're both in the same camp as Gregor and you've slowly, just at the very end, come round to the idea that it's City's title now. I think I've been like that all the way through, actually. Yes, you have. But actually, most of us have been Arsenal the whole way through. Yeah, I've been Arsenal all the way through. I just, it's hard to find logical reason. Like I can find like emotional vibes in myself to think that maybe Arsenal will just sort of now have another go and they'll find it and who knows. But if you look at the black and white logical reasons, you know, City got the form, momentum, the attacking players.

53:17Okay, the fixtures are slightly tougher, but I think when City are in this form, the fixtures are almost irrelevant. You know, I don't think the fixtures really come into it. But in my sort of rational sense, if you weigh up the pros and cons, I think City have got more pros than cons than Arsenal. And it wasn't a convincing win against Newcastle. That game, if you step back from the title race, Newcastle had excellent opportunities and fluffed their chances. And why were they letting a Newcastle team in free fall get so much from a match? That seemed a bit odd. Wessler's chance. Yeah. My goodness.

53:49It could have been different. What do we think about the Nick Pope one as well? Red card or just about fine? I think it could have been a red card I think it could have been because you know you take out his presence slows down Giochores as well so if he's not there then Giochores runs through it's a difficult one I think it could have easily been a red card I forgot to ask as well as you were at the game handball West Ham lucky to get away with that one and Jordan Pickford with a fairly tasty challenge at the other end I think Pickford's is okay I think the handball is funny because David Moyes was afterwards was quite kind of cutting about it he was like you know they're talking about it's grappling he wasn't grappling he was being grappled so it's not like a mutual they're both going at it and he definitely hit the ball out from a corner and he said I've heard them talking about accidental he said that's the first time I've heard that word used you're not supposed to use that word anymore so it's hard to see how they didn't give a penalty I also think like you know it would have been a bit unfortunate but I think they got away with one and Nuno said afterwards I was scared you've done a referee course as well haven't you grappling and handball isn't part of the isn't part of it you don't not give handball because grappling is involved right no this isn't this isn't made up just back being with accidental yeah just back to Arsenal Alison you did quite rightly point out that you have been saying City for a while the one thing you have said for Arsenal a couple of times on this show is their potential in the Champions League of course they've got Atletico Madrid in the first leg of their semi-final how would you be saying that actually we are in this world that some of us have talked about you in particular where they maybe don't win the Premier League title, but maybe do at least get to a Champions League final.

55:26No, I said three months ago, they'll win one trophy and it'll be the Champions League. Right. And I still think that's more likely. Right. Interesting. There you go, Arsenal fans. If you've got views on the end of your season, do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetime.co.uk. Let's finish with a chat about an exclusive interview in the Times and on the Times website this weekend. Alison Rudd, you spoke to Roy Hodgson back in management at Bristol City, age 78. It was a wonderful, wonderful interview. It's always nice when you're on the editing floor, you know an interview's coming, it arrives, and then you hear the sub-editors start going, a really lovely piece.

55:56And sub-editors, notoriously difficult to please, I should add as well. Tell us a little bit about your chat with Roy. Had some lovely lines in there, a few jokes in there about why he went back into management. Tell us how. He was in good form. He was in excellent form, and I've seen him in the intervening periods since he left Crystal Palace. And to be completely frank, he'd look like an old man out of work, you know, and a retired gentleman. And seeing him back in action at Bristol City, he was transformed. It was like going back 10, 15 years. I mean, he's going to be 79 in August. Wow. And he sort of refers to himself as 79 and 80 now.

56:34It's almost like he's embracing this. He's prepping. How amazing it is to be so old. And so I hung around for quite a while before I met up with him at the club to get the vibe of the club. and saw players interacting with him in training and so on. And they all look at him adoringly. You know, you might say, how does someone of that age deal with players who are in their teens and 20s? What possible connection can he have with them? The connection is just sheer respect. And he goes in and he makes life very simple for them. He was brought in deliberately because it's, again, theme of the year.

57:10They were playing three at the back. It wasn't working. They didn't have any fit centre-backs. Why on earth you'd persist? So they actually wanted, they identified Roy. The club identified Roy as someone who plays 4-4-2 brilliantly because he's got 50 years' experience of playing 4-4-2. Bring him in, and the players were just so relieved to be playing a system that was simple. And he learns all their names quick as a flash. He gets to know them really quickly. They're all really flattered that he knows who they are straightaway. All the coaching staff, he introduced me to them all, knows all their names.

57:43You know, this is not your typical 78-year-old. It's also not just a bloke just turning up just to kind of do a job for a little bit. Because that was obviously in the interview talking about Bristol City approaching him, ringing him up going, you're not going to believe this. We want you to come and be a manager. And him talking about asking his wife's permission and her saying, good idea. So go and get out the house. But this is, there's not a kind of just, oh, I'll just turn up and have a bit of a laugh at Bristol City about this, is there? Oh, no, no, he's taking it incredibly seriously. But it can only work if he's enjoying himself.

58:12And he's really enjoying it. And the players are enjoying having him there. I think it helps enormously that there's no speculation. Oh, is he going to be the full-time manager next season? He's made it very clear. This is just a short-term way of lifting spirits because the fan base had got a bit disgruntled with how it was going because they keep nearly getting to the playoffs and then drifting away. They want a shot at the Premier League. So they just wanted to go into the new season with a new manager and a new sporting director with a bit of positivity and they felt Roy was the best person to do that.

58:46And he was. And, you know, he was so happy and chatty and wonderful. He said, oh, God, someone sent me this joke saying, why has Roy Hodgson gone to Bristol City before Tottenham could nab him? You know, he loved all that, loved all that. No part of him thinking that, though. Chelsea could have had the Chelsea job for the end of the season as well in terms of, you know, short-term appointments. No, he's up for another, he's up for a sort of Hail Mary role. We'd love that, wouldn't we? To be fair, of all the people put forwards for Tottenham interim role, he was about the best shout. Gary said it, didn't he?

59:19He did. And he kind of went, hmm. Because some of the other names were just ridiculous. In terms of the training, Alison, is he doing the session or is he on the side and he's got coaches sort of... He's got coaching helping him because he's got a bad back. So if he can't actively join in, like kicking the ball is painful. but he's there on the pitch and he's on his toes. He's tiptoeing. He looks like a little ballet dancer, a little old ballet dancer. He's there in the middle of training, talking to them all the time, definitely. And he's not got Ray Lewington with him, which looks really weird because they're a double act, but he's phoning Ray all the time.

59:54Which brings us to the fact that Ray Lewington goes into Brentford a lot. So when we talked earlier about, you know, Brentford could actually make Europe, what a great season they're having. it's because Keith Andrews has had the nows to think you know I know these guys he's invited Roy along as well they come along do coaching sessions matches he's gleaning experience so don't the moral of the story is whatever position you're in don't knock 50 years of football experience yeah absolutely I'm very excited to see what Roy Hodgson does next I'm sure Alison Rudd will be there to chronicle it we'll have to leave it there Tom Olnott Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me make sure you are checking us out on YouTube you can see Alison's impression of Roy Hodgson on his tiptoes doing ballet as well as my Lincoln shirt 2019 23rd kit it's become so normal now that no one's even mentioning it or talking about it enough of it that's why yeah oh come on we've got a good couple of weeks yet you should have seen the big haul that my brother brought down for me um but me and Gregor will be back with an EFL show in the week and we'll be back on Thursday to discuss the Champions League we'll see you then

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