Why are Arsenal getting so much stick?

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1:31is back to seven points, but their style and tactics remain firmly in the spotlight. A 1-0 win thanks to a Bakayo Saka goal from open play, but Brighton manager Fabian Herzler says that his team were the only ones trying to play football and that he wouldn't want to win in the way that Arsenal do. Does glory and title winning triumph have to be beautiful? Will Herzler's comments make more people team Arteta? On today's show, we'll debate all of that plus Manchester City's draw with Nottingham Forest. Chelsea turn it on against struggling Aston Villa. West Ham's big win at Fulham and impressive performances from Newcastle, Sunderland and Wolves.

2:07I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former Chelsea, Millwall and Ireland striker Tony Cascarino and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me as usual. We've done it so many times this season already, talked about style and Arsenal. We have to talk about it again listeners. It is dominating the headlines this week and none more so than this morning on Thursday as we record this show after last night's game. Arsenal winning 1-0, as I said in that intro there. Lead at the top of the table, back to seven points after Manchester City's draw.

2:39But Fabian Herzler making style the big issue again. He said after this game, as Alison Rudd reports on the Times website, I think there was only one team who tried to play football today. I ask one question, did you see in a Premier League game a goalkeeper going down three times? no I will never be that kind of manager who tries to win in that way I want to do well I want my players to keep improving to keep playing football on the pitch and in the end of course every team will manage and waste time but I think there has to be a limit and the limit has to be set by the Premier League the limit has to be set by the referees and at the moment they just do what they want when asked about this Mikel Arteta smiled and said what a surprise and adding that he loved his players and he loves the way we compete we're going to get into style again everyone.

3:24Martin, let's start with you. What did you make of this game and these comments first of all, before we broaden it out into the bigger picture stuff, what did you make of Fabian Herzl's comments about Arsenal? I think it's very interesting because usually those sort of comments are what you hear from a manager of an elite team, a team that's at the top of the league, talking about a lower opponent, a lesser opponent. It's the sort of thing that Arsene Wenger would say about when they used to play Stoke or when they used to play Buckman. Wigan, Paul Dool's Wigan. There was only one team trying to play football.

4:05And I think that's why there is this resentment towards Arsenal because a lot of people will recognise that. A lot of people will recognise what Herzl was saying. There's only one team trying to play football. But we expect that to be the big team, the elite team, the league leading team. We expect them to be the ones that are trying to play the football. We don't think, we don't expect a team that's in the bottom half of the table or whatever to suddenly be on the high moral ground about style. and so to hear Herzler's comments I think that is why there is this degree of animosity towards Arsenal because it is not what we have come to expect from teams that win the league in the Premier League era In terms of then this idea of only wanting trying to play football I mean even to break down that statement in itself, you know, Arsenal are playing football set pieces are football, throw-ins are football scoring goals from corners are football as I said in my intro, Bukai Ossac had a shot it was deflected, you know, Verbruggen should probably save it and then we won't have this problem, let's be honest but I mean, is the problem then our perception, you took there Martin in that answer that sums it up nicely is it about us, are we as much part of the problem what we expect from the very top, from the very best is that part of it, Martin?

5:34They're going after a succession of the best footballing teams that we've ever seen. Yeah. You know, particularly Manchester City, but in a different way, clocks Liverpool. Very exciting. In a different way, starts Liverpool as well, because Salah last season. So they are following this run that English football has had, where the champions of however many seasons now, 6, 7 maybe going all the way back to say Leicester who were a little bit more hell and scaring but they were the underdog but they were the underdog so they had this incredible back story they had the most romantic back story probably in the history of English football whereas they're following on from Pep Guardiola's Manchester City I think that's a really good point Tony we're talking big picture already but on the game last night and Herzl's comments you know striking a nerve with Arsenal fans.

6:35What did you make of it all? Well, he struck a nerve on, really, Arsenal as the club as well. It's not just their fans, because this idea of how you play football, and there is an elitism, isn't there, with the top sides. I mean, Martin was talking about, you know, there are certain clubs in European football who can't play that way because their fans wouldn't accept it. You know, as an international team, Brazil, you cannot play that. They won the World Cup in 94. Got stick. Winning the World Cup. Got stick in. Not allowed to play that way. Okay? and so watching it yesterday and I came away and I kept thinking could Liverpool be allowed to play that well well they did sort of under Roy Hodgson a bit you know Manchester United had Mourinho but they weren't you know weren't winning the league no and they weren't winning the league but we've seen teams do this you know Leeds United did this but you're not meant to be if you have these huge budgets pay huge amounts of money by the most or the biggest stars in football you're expected to it's like going to see a film isn't it it's got the greatest actors in the world and they go, it's okay.

7:33They're all great, but the film's okay. That's what you're getting watching Arsenal. Coming back to the perception and this idea of the modern football and the modern game, is there not a sense that actually the game permits this? The game permits you to put lots of players in the six-yard area and stick a really good corner in. Is Declan Rice whipping the most perfectly positioned in-swinging corner into the box? Not just this equivalent of a brilliantly skilful winger dancing around three players and bending it into the top corner, like Mo Salah did for Liverpool in their title-winning season, Martin, as you say.

8:05Is this not just the equivalent and we can't get our heads around it? Gregor, what do you think? What do you make of it all? It's maximising our strength. It's like a form of marginal gain that Arsenal have been at the vanguard of. I think we can get a wee bit ahead of ourselves. I think the season has had certain phases. I think Arsenal started quite kind of they weren't easy on the eye but it was effective, then they had a period where they were kind of free scoring and you thought they were starting to loosen up and you were seeing more creativity and then now they've found another stage, they have different faces, we'll see it again when European football starts again in Champions League this week, sorry next week be like we'll see it again, we'll see Arsenal in a different face and I think part of me admires it part of me admires it I think I totally take the point that this is not what we expect from potentially a champion and it is a bit jarring at times but there's no right way and wrong way to play football and I always think it's wrong for a manager or a player or anyone to criticise the other team's approach like this it reminded me of Roger after Scotland beat Spain three years ago about this time of year it was the saltiest post-batch interview I can ever remember the best team in the world playing against the team ranked 40th or whatever and he expected them he just kept going about only one team wanted to play what do you expect?

9:37I totally understand that the roles are reversed here If Scotland had come out and gone we're trying to play football here and they've got the best footballers in the world and they're not trying to play us It doesn't sound any better from Hootsheller to me I don't think it doesn't sound And look, we're all saying the same thing. There's no given right, you have to play this way. And, you know, I look at Arsenal, they've got to get over the line. They have to get over the line. And just to be clear, I don't think they are playing like the team in relative terms in international football, ranked 40th in the world.

10:08No. They're not. They can. They can take a lead and they can hold on to it better than anyone else because they have absolute warriors in defence and, like, they can hold on to leads better than anyone. You know, that team they really remind me of more than that is Atletico Madrid. Yeah. And they really remind me of... Who we admired a lot, but they're not quite Real Madrid-Barcelona. Because they're up against Real Madrid and Barcelona, exactly. I'm talking this Arsenal now, what I'm seeing in recent weeks, Greg. I'm not talking from, like you said, the start of the season. And you're right to mention that we have seen glorious performances.

10:42And they might well turn it on again. But they've got to get over that line. I think you can break it down to why are Arsenal unpopular, generally unpopular. So the Herzler thing, so there's that, that people expect more of the best team in the country. They expect them to have more ambition. Okay, we'll go with that. The other thing I think that is ticking people off is that, and Gregor and I were talking about this earlier, that there's always a correction in football. So the set-piece thing, the set-piece thing is all right, but people will work out how to organise themselves against the set-pieces and it will be a phase and it will go.

11:29Chelsea leaving three players on the top. Yeah, it will come and go. But one of the ways you can address the set-piece issue is if the referees referee it properly and stop people holding on to each other and grabbing and wrestling and all of this. And people don't think that is happening. People think the referees have basically abdicated their responsibility for policing the six-yard box and they resent that as well. And they blame Arsenal for it. As opposed to blaming the refs. They're using that. I also think on the same sort of theme, there's possibly a bit of a feeling that Arsenal have been at the vanguard of this sort of pivot and tactical trends and like possibly there's a bit of a that's another reason why they're not quite or maybe they're just best at it to my point about Declan and Reising Corners they're just the best at it yeah but they've been best at it for two or three seasons now and then everyone tries to replicate the best and I know they've not won the league but they've fallen short like by fractional so Arteta said this didn't he in his pre-match press conference when I asked about this because Fabian Herzler had had a bit of a pop beforehand talking about time wasting and things he kind of said look I'd happily play a bit more expansive.

12:40I've got the place to do it. But this is English football overall. It's not just us. Everyone is doing it. We're just best at it. Look, there's a lot of cloning that's gone on here in football in the last nine months. We've seen it. As it always is. As it always is. As it always is. Everyone cloned everybody. Can I just add one more? And they're also, one of the things I think upsets a number of supporters is that they're right on the margin of the line of how long they take throws. They know they've been questioned about it, but they take it right to the limit. They do it again and people think...

13:13And you can hear the fans getting frustrated. But that comes back to Martin's point about clamping down on it, though. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a couple of things I just wanted to bring in there. So Arsenal took 30 minutes and 51 seconds to restart play against Brighton last night, which is their highest total in a Premier League match this season. And I just wanted to mention very quickly before we come back to Arsenal, just a couple of other things that are kind of surfacing in terms of this whole bigger kind of conversation that Greg is making the point, at the vanguard and everyone's kind of pushing this a bit of a narrative that oh you know football's broken and things like that it's just in a chapter in my opinion but so a couple of things that are coming up obviously hurts us talking about keepers feigning injury raya going down three times as he said i mean if you go to any football league match that that happens basically on like clockwork on 20 minutes and 65 minutes in each half and you know my dad still falls for it bless him he goes oh keepers injured he's not dad promise honestly he's not trust me just a water break and a tactics chat I mean just very quickly anyone got a major problem with that I mean I don't but like everyone's folding all these things in all I would say is the reason people have got a problem with it the other thing that has happened now the third thing is everyone has had to listen to Arsenal lecturing on everyone on how football should be played for a long long time and particularly when Arsenal was in charge Arsenal had very very direct and specific ideas and we had to listen to a lot of Arsenal fans telling everyone that there's only one way of playing and this has got to be the right way and this beautiful game, etc, etc.

14:43And so there's a bit of that in there as well. Oh, right. And then you've got other little things like who's the Arsenal player that has gone down injured more than anyone else this season? I think I saw statistics out there. Is it Gabriel Martinelli? Right, it might be. Who's the guy that tried to drag Connor Bradley off the pitch when he was genuinely injured. So there's all of these little things that don't make them particularly appealing to the neutrals. I get it from an Arsenal point of view, and I get it if you're an Arsenal fan, you can go, I don't care, we just need to win the league, but you can't make everyone love you.

15:21Just come back to that in just a second. Greg, I wanted to come back to the idea about the game generally being broken and stuff, because the other thing we've seen is people criticising kick-offs this week. We saw it on Tuesday night. I think it was Brentford and Everton both tried the kind of rugby style flick it up in the air and then boot it we've seen that loads and I mean to me that's no different than a quick pass pass to the left back who launches a diagonal that maybe goes out for a throw in or doesn't we need to be careful here don't we that we don't conflate a load of different things into either right and wrong, left and right, bad, good you know a lot of this is just little stylistic things that will come and ebb and flow with the game are right?

15:58Yeah I mean you know there's been this sort of narrative that the game's broken in the last week or so and I think that's nonsense it is a chapter, it's a good way of describing it, and we're seeing trends and sometimes one trend will sort of make another trend more acceptable, like the kick-offs is one example, I've said this before PSG are the best team in Europe and they put the ball straight out from kick last season in particular they did it in the Champions League final they took it and put it straight out you go, oh, it's okay for them to do then we'll do it, so that's like you know, that's part of it, it feeds into it, and it's the same thing with Arsenal, as I said, they are a team that people look up to because they've been successful up to a point make that point clear and you see what has got them there, and people try and emulate it, so there are these trends and influences, absolutely but the idea that the game is broken is nonsense, and there are things, yes referees can do they can just use their their powers.

16:57They already have the powers. There's no need for new laws. There's no need for I don't think there's need for countdown clocks. I don't think there's need for all these things that IFAB are trying to concoct now. Just give the referees I can't handle the rules they've got. Why do you want to give them another five responsibilities? Just give the referees the power to use their powers more. The freedom. The freedom to make calls. Like we said this beforehand things about set plays as well it's hysteria about the kind of tugging and stuff so the referees can use their powers but then you'll also see like Chelsea did when they left three men up I think it was in the cup game three men on the halfway line we were discussing earlier there was a game I think could have been started this week but five men on the halfway line like down way down the leagues could be great people come up with ideas there was Pep Guardiola I was reading a piece this week like cause of man to man pressing that's another thing Arteta's referenced that people are so good defensively now and they're so disciplined and they often utilise man-to-man pressing.

18:00Pep put Bernardo Silva and Rodri on either side of the six-yard box and started goal kicks with his two midfielders there. Well, that's really common now. Yeah, yeah. Not the two midfielders. Two midfielders. So he's trying to disrupt the other team's notion of marking man-to-man. You can't mark them clearly and it's like pulling people from pillar to post. so people will think up solutions to what we think are problems now they're not problems they're just areas that you have to try and confront Yeah we should say as well style was a big issue in Sunderland's win at Leeds as well and also Kit Shepard reporting on the Times website that a law change addressing potential time wasting by goalkeepers feigning injury will be trialled next season in the WSL I wanted to just finish by coming back to Arsenal Martin, you've touched on it a couple of times about this perception that we have and that general football fans have how will this make them viewed as potential title winners?

18:59I think if they win the league, and I think they will, and I thought they would from quite early on, they're the best squad in the country by a mile, and they're the best at executing their game plan by a mile. I think they will be the most controversial champions of the Premier League era because this is not seen as a conventional way for champions to play. It would have been far less controversial before the Premier League. If you think of George Graham's Arsenal team, it had a really tight offside trap. It was more direct. Before that, Harold Kendall's Everton team was quite a direct team. Kaz mentioned Howard Wilkinson and Leeds.

19:51That's the year before the Premier League starts. They were quite a direct team as well. So I think before we get to the Premier League era, it's not uncommon for a team to have a direct style. I'm not saying Arsenal have got a particularly direct style. They haven't. But to have, say, a direct style or to be very good at set pieces or very good at corners, free kicks or whatever. in the Premier League era without a doubt title winning teams have moved away from that Listen I think Martin makes a good point that the general football public will find it particularly controversial They're champions elect It's a little unfair this isn't it We think they're champions elect We've seen champions elect before we've had plenty of seasons where at this stage in the season and you're thinking, right, this is the team that's going to win it.

20:49I can't remember a team, a club, a champion that has got so much animosity from other fans around them. The incredible thing, Manchester City have got 115 outstanding charges against them and you'll get people going, I'd much rather Man City win it. And you're thinking, this is incredible really. Which is remarkable. They've turned Man City into the good guys. And I'm not saying, this is not my opinion, but you do go out and you do speak to football fans and people talk to you about football. They're not well-liked. They're really not. Do we hope, Gregor, potentially that, you know, Arsenal can kind of blow a few teams away as they head towards a couple of trophies towards the end of this season and that this will just be a period where they're kind of grinding out games.

21:37Kaz said it himself, you know, got to get over the line. Does it matter? Is it unfair? No, they can do it how they want. and like I totally no I think Martin makes a very valid point I don't think they'll be popular champions and I think if you look down through the list of of winners of the Premier League title there's usually a fondness for them even if you're neutral you think you enjoy watching that team football or you really admire them or you see the two best teams in the country going head to head and you think wow that's a thrilling spectacle even think I'm just trying to think back to anyone who would not even when Chelsea won the title under Antonio Conte there was the there was the tactical tweak you know chasing three at the back and he got up that's good and you know they were transformed that was a they weren't like a joy to watch all the time but that was like there was still an admiration for the way they'd done it there's not I think from the neutrals it's to be clear like the Arsenal fans I totally take well not give a damn but for neutrals there's not that much to feel a fondness of there's there's individuals like everyone everyone loves Declan Rice everyone loves Saka everyone really admires I think the defenders and as I keep describing like this warrior spirit that they have but I don't think there's much fondness felt towards Arteta and I don't think there's much felt towards them as a team see what you said earlier it's true that you know Conte's Chelsea were a clinical team Jose's team was a clinical team but also brilliant you know I remember watching early Is this Arsenal team not brilliant as well?

23:08No I wouldn't go look if you were going to compare the Invincible They could do the quadruple. Yeah. They could do. I admire them and I don't, I totally, I never want football to go one way. And that's how you have to play. And I just don't like the idea at all. I think it's just, it's impossible. I just feel watching this Arsenal team, I understand why people feel the way they do when you watch them. Because as champions of many countries, whether it's Bayern Munich in Germany or whether it's PSG, you're deemed or you're meant to play a certain way, which they don't quite fulfil. But I can't get away from, they are the best team I've seen so far this year.

23:47And you called it from the start, Tony. You said they were going to, I haven't forgotten this, you said they were going to win the league before the season started. Absolutely. And they will do it deservedly. So Arsenal fans, and sorry Martin, go on. I was going to make one other point. So it's like Gilchrist. Yeah. So if they've got Thierry Henry up front, if they've got Thierry Henry up front, people are looking at it going, I don't really like this. What a player. Then Bergkamp. Bergkamp. What a player, Thierry Henry. I'll pay to watch him. But even their centre forward and he's doing all right now.

24:27He's doing all right and he's a handful and I thought we had a great game against Tottenham the other week. Yeah, we did, absolutely. But even Gilker is. He's not delightful on the eye. He's not a Thierry Henry or Bergkamp or even Ian Wright or whatever. And it all bleeds into this idea that this is quite a sort of functional set-up, that this isn't actually the balancing the ball on your nose that you're meant to be doing if you're the champion. But as I said, I also think it's important to say that the wider sort of feeling in the Premier League feeds into this as well, I think. like this idea that the Premier League has taken a step an aggressive step and Arsenal are like the totem of that that's where I think it's unfair on Arsenal I do too I do too there's nothing wrong they're carrying the can a lot of the stuff they're going but they're the top they should be better exactly Artes is like shut up we're just better at it than you are Declan Wright is a better corner than your bloke and Gabriel heads the ball better than your bloke and leave it out they're the second highest percentage of goals from set pieces this season, Arsenal, or they were going into this round of matches, so it's Crystal Palace at the most and then it's Arsenal bottom, and bottom by some distance is Manchester City bottom.

25:54Very interesting though, let's bring them in then, because the only reason they're talking about seven points clear, we had a big chat about style Arsenal fans and neutrals, get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk tell me what you think, whether we're right about the perceptions of Arsenal this season. But speaking of City, they scored a very Arsenal corner last night against Nottingham Forest. Lots of blocking in the box, everything like that. But dropping points against a very well-drilled Nottingham Forest side, I thought they kind of waited for their moments. Morgan Gibbs, White, what a player when he fancies it.

26:23Goodness me, he was doing like little backheels around City players and you're probably City fans thinking, should we sign him as well as Antoine Semeny? Elliot Anderson with a terrific goal as well. Erling Haaland a little bit missing in this game. was this the kind of performance Gregor I thought of you while I was watching this where you'd said this is not the City team that we've expected in the past this is still a bit disjointed you know Antoine Semenya has been a brilliant signing and I actually thought Mark Gay played well as well but I'm actually watching them in recent weeks going Christ if you hadn't signed them you'd be really in trouble yeah you just I just don't have the same degree of trust as I've had in City teams in the past and yeah Foros deserve a lot of credit for the way they defended and you know as you say two players a red pollers on the whistle report actually on the website last night and he was describing it as one player they overlooked in the summer in Gibbs White and then a player who they're strongly linked with in signing this summer Elliot Anderson are the teams that possibly put Seti's title bit to the sword although probably there's a third player in there Murillo with the clearance off the line I'll tell you what that was exciting watching that in the office as the editor last night thinking what's the narrative going to be what's the back page of the paper going to be Arsenal had won, Arsenal had finished.

27:37You think City score here, it's the neck and neck still. And it was one of those moments where you're just going, oh my God, oh my God. Absolutely remarkable clearance. Remarkable moment. I think City overplayed.

27:52Needed Cascarino just to clear everyone out, bald man, everything in the back of the club. No, I tell you what stood out for me, because it was like when Manchester United went to Arsenal and they won 3-2 and Dorku and Cunha got two great goals, It reminded me of that game where the two goals, I mean, Morgan Gibbs-White, the back heel. Great cushion header as well. Yeah, great cushion header and then sets. But to him be able to do that and do it with a sort of confidence knowing he can and then Elliot Anderson's finished where he bends it around and Kunyad did that at Arsenal, didn't he? That bended.

28:23There were two great goals. And City don't find themselves that often on, you know, conceding goals that are that good. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you normally have to work your way around City but I just thought it was a big moment last night and City are a very good sidebar like Gregor I just think they're going to drop points I just don't feel the same about them yeah absolutely well it was a great point for Nottingham Forest we're going to talk about the battle at the bottom in the second half of the show but it's time for a quick break it's time for an FA Cup related quiz question we're not going to mention too much of the FA Cup in this show we'll save that for Monday but it's Port Vale in action this weekend against Sunderland who helped Port Vale knock Tottenham Hotspur out of the FA Cup in 1988, and six years later was part of the Wimbledon side that beat Sunderland in the same competition.

29:10Find out after the break.

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30:31Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson, Tony Cascarino and Mr Quizmaster himself, Martin Samuel, who was in with the answer to the quiz question, which was? Only once it was given as a multiple choice, but it's Robbie Earl. Robbie Earl is what it is indeed. Yes, that's coming from Bill Edgar's quiz, which you can do every week on the Times website. Some fiendishly difficult questions. I had a 10 last week. There was one last week. See, you love the quiz. Absentmindedly. when you're sitting here waiting for something or whatever.

31:04No, you love it. And I was quite impressed because people put in their results in the comments, which I think is quite strange. And, you know, no, I've got 8 out of 10. I think I've got 8 out of 10. You love the effort. I should maybe do this for a living. You love Bill Edgar's weekly cruise almost as much as you love the kit in this room with your chair that moves up and down. The chair that moves up and down. All the time. Freezing cold air conditioning. Keeping you on your toes. Let's get back in to the football because there's loads of other great action in the midweek fixtures. We're recording this on Thursday before the big game.

31:36Tottenham against Crystal Palace. We'll mention the battle at the bottom in a second. Chelsea Villa. I'm really falling for Liam Rossini, everyone. I've really got to say I don't know whether it's all an act, but the guy's got vibes, man. I really like it. There was a moment when I think it was Aston Villa's quite controversial goal that was ruled out offside by a knee, Gregor. I'm sure you enjoyed that one. But as Villa a counter-attacking, because I think Chelsea gave the ball away, there was an image of him on his haunches on the touchline, you know, like going oh no, he couldn't watch, and then the ball goes in in the background, then it's disallowed.

32:07But I thought Chelsea were excellent in this game. Cole Palmer back, obviously helps when your star striker scores a hat-trick. What do we think of Chelsea generally, not just in this game, obviously Brasini has made lots of headlines for lots of different reasons. Chelsea have been under pressure as a club this season. They're still probably not where they would want to be, but what do we make of this time in charge so far Martin that last night is the high point isn't it that's the high point of it and I know that Villa are on their way down at the moment and maybe you look at Villa and you wonder whether they might be better trying to get into the Champions League via the Europa League than the Premier League who knows but that's an impressive result to put four past Aston Villa is an impressive result whatever form they're in and no that's good that's good he's had a you know it's been the odd match where it really hasn't worked for him or whatever but that's that's a good result if he can get him into the Champions League this season if he go if he can maintain that Champions League position because let's be honest yeah Enzo Muska it wasn't like they were tenth or anything like that if you can maintain that Champions League position then that's a good start isn't it and then he's got a full season to go at it.

33:26Yeah, I mean, our old colleague, Tom Ruddy, who works for Chelsea, I was at the Chelsea game and he said, say hello to, you know, Rosinha, come up, Liam, Rosinha, say hello, you know, and he said, you'll be really impressed and he's a really impressive guy for a young man that's coming to a job that's totally unexpected. I'd say one player that's absolutely excelled since he's been there has been Enzo Fernandes. He's been frighteningly good. His ability on the ball I know he's a£100 million player, but boy, he just does so many good things in a football match. I just look at their heart, their defence, and it's a common theme.

34:05If they fix that, Chelsea would be, they've got so much, you know, wingers, he can pick and choose. Garnaccio comes in last night and plays, you know, he's had Neto, but they've got so much choice in them wide positions. Pedro's just settled in. I think now he looks way more like a striker. when I first saw him at the start of the season I thought he was more he was playing like a 10 role so often but now he looks like he wants to be a predator get into certain areas and Chelsea are doing doing it really well watching last night because I flicked between that game and Arsenal and the times I flicked over and watched Chelsea I know we're going to go back to the old comment but it was like watching a different game the way they play how fast they move the ball and they get on it and they look for the they all go don't they they all fly we've got Malo Gusto everyone flying forward all playing with purpose and I know they lost the three games against Arsenal the two in the cup and obviously in the league but apart from the first one the other two were really good games where Chelsea played really well so Chelsea are not far away I just think they haven't got a they shouldn't be far away shouldn't they when you think what they did last season they shouldn't be far away and the money they've spent or whatever yeah we've said they're not far away for a while like I just you were watching Last night you think Maybe two or three players Like as you say Central defender Still maybe a goalkeeper And like just someone Who's a bit A bit of a leader Maybe still And I know they think That they're cultivating This and what not It was actually Garnaccio's Probably Garnaccio's Best game for them as well After Rossini Had defended him In the press conference as well And said You know Backed him a little bit I thought that was quite Interesting man management You know Talking about him As a vibes person That before the game Defends a player Then picks him You know It's kind of Very basic man management isn't it but it worked it seemed to work yeah no he was good he gave matty cash a torrid really in the in the first half and uh and he was like always making those runs villas high line was just like crazy and you know it's what they do you know for for good or bad and this is a bad night this joining though gregor wasn't it wasn't it got caught a few times yeah but he was always kept a couple of offsides where he's he's not in line with the defense at all yeah but garnacho was always the one trying to make those sort of those like arc and runs uh and yeah i was impressed the way he dealt with the uh red card thing as well early in the week yeah early in the week what he said where he talking about discipline yeah set down a set of standards and you know yeah seemed as if he was going to address it rather than um just sort of keep excusing it keep excuse which is what you said on monday's show isn't it as a former player you kind of got of both tackle it but also give the players the responsibility of saying this is this is on you on Villa then there was a moment that I think kind of summed up their situation now I think it was Morgan Rodgers trying to kind of twist and turn and get himself that space 25 yards out where he was banging them in around Christmas and I think it was Malo Gusto just kind of wrestled him 50-50 eventually nicked the ball referee gives a free kick against Rodgers he boots the ball into the hoardings and gets a yellow card and you just thought this is where they're at you know they're they ran a really good race for a while.

37:15And that maybe, as you say, Martin, they've got a choice to make now where they're going with this season. I just wanted to ask quickly on Morgan Rodgers, and we mentioned Morgan Gibbs-White, Cole Palmer playing in this game consecutively. Are we ending up in a kind of fascinating conversation around England and number 10s and attacking players where you're like, I don't actually know who the best person is at the minute, in terms of the situation as we head into an international break. I'd be giving it Morgan Gibbs-White on the basis of last night's game but I mean is it still Morgan Rogers' shirt?

37:47I'd say so because of because of his performances for England you're right he's had a bit of a lull recently Foden has had a lull a lull of a season really Bellingham's injured yeah you're right it's a a position of like embarrassment of riches but you're still not sure which one is going to be the one you hang your hat on I don't think That's always the case, really, until you get right up to the end of the season. You see who's in form, you see who's fit. That's always going to be the way. But Rodgers probably does need to have a stronger end to the season to be really everyone saying he's the one.

38:25It's a weird one because if you look at Villa's last six, seven matches, I think it's only Chelsea were in the top six. And they lost to Newcastle in the Cup at home. They've had a real indifferent period against teams that you'd think, of course Villa could get a good few results here they haven't, it's gone the other way completely Yeah, difficult times for Aston Villa fans a good win for Newcastle United against Manchester United, loads of controversial moments in this game, we had Jacob Ramsey sent off for a second yellow card for a dive that probably wasn't about as much of a dive as Matthias Cunha against Crystal Palace, I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks that, but Newcastle hanging on really well, not a great night for the old Michael Carrick, give him a contract as long as he wants, I would say Martin, 10 men, 1-1, bringing on Ugarte and Malassia.

39:12It's one match, isn't it? I mean, everyone loses one match. I seem to remember that last season, Liverpool got beat by Nottingham Forest at home in about Arnie Slott's third or fourth game or something like that. Didn't have 10 men, though. No, but it's Nottingham Forest, 1-0 at home. Not a good result. You can lose a game. You can lose a game. they probably haven't been great since the West Ham game West Ham I thought they were very ordinary at West Ham then they were obviously beating Everton, kind of hanging on that was the night where everyone was really tearing their hair out about the set pieces and the box Palace, they were poor until sending off, that changed the game they haven't been great for a few weeks but they've been finding a way to get a result and they almost, again, pretty fine margins Willis-Hula coming off the bench and scoring an absolute worldie A great goal, yeah.

40:06Terrible defending by Tarek Malassi, though. You've got to say, he didn't look like he'd forgotten how he'd play football. He'd not been on the pitch as well. He looked like he'd forgot he'd been brought on. Yeah. Because he came on and got totally lost in the moment. Bruno Fernandes carrying Manchester United again. Tony and Martin, I just wanted to ask you about your potential Player of the Year contenders. We discussed this on Monday's show. Gregor, we had a few listeners get in touch to say they were upset that we hadn't mentioned Bruno Fernandes. He's definitely a candidate up there. Who would you be picking now?

40:33Obviously, a long way to go. recency biases aside if you're picking a player of the season Declan Rice Tony I think Semenya has done pretty amazing the Bournemouth fan look if Arsenal go and win the title it's different but there's been I tell you there's a few I've been really impressed with and I said Enzo Fernandes the fact that Chelsea not challenging for the title is a bit of an issue but he's been terrific for them obviously Gabriel Arsenal's had a terrific season it'll be between Declan Rice and Gabriel for me Bruno Fernandes So definitely a candidate, I would say, given his performances for it's at times struggling Manchester United team.

41:09Let's talk about another one of the big results in midweek. West Ham won Fulham nil. Martin, the survival's on, isn't it? You've said it so many times on this podcast. West Ham are down, they're done, they're dead and buried. It's looking very interesting at the bottom. It's looking very interesting. Very interesting. Season finished tomorrow, West Ham are still well against. But only just their level on points now with Nottingham Forest, both on 28. as I've already teed up Tottenham against Crystal Palace taking on even greater significance with every game that passes they've kept another clean sheet though and so often on the show this season they're keeping clean sheets they're battling one feels confident about the way going into games, you don't feel confident about West Ham winning going into games but you're not I've been on here and gone they're gone and I do think I mean Nuno's done a fabulous job they look like a Nuno team now yeah he's really done a fabulous job because when he took over I genuinely couldn't see what 11 he could pick to get West Ham out of jail I didn't think they had 11 players there and I know they made some sign-ins but Pablo is injured and some of the other sign-ins were kids and all of this like Magasa and he's he's turned it around and he's turned it into an efficient team.

42:34Somerville is in exceptional form at the moment. You're even overcoming the fact that Bowen looks exhausted to me. He looks absolutely dead on his feet, poor sod. But they're still finding ways. You know, even shipping five against Liverpool. Now, every time Liverpool went forward, you know, you fancy them to score. So that was not a good way. not a good way to win a game that but they didn't play badly they didn't actually play badly they created chances and I mean this is a significant win isn't it particularly in light of Tottenham who went to Fulham and lost at the weekend to go to Fulham, Fulham have been in fantastic form I've got to try and not get excited you know, you sort of feel very invested in it because it was the team you grew up with and everything, so you feel very invested in them not getting relegated but at the same time you've got to be realistic you know a lot's got to go right at West Ham and a lot's got to go wrong elsewhere you know Nottingham Forest has just got to draw at Man City we don't know what Tottenham will do tonight I mean they can't play as badly as they did at Fulham surely well you never know you might be listening to this on Friday morning and they've done just that but I say for all that like you know hair pulling and teeth gnashing about the about the football this season like you've got a great relegation battle I've got a title race although it's like yeah it's it's changing from week to week and a real a great battle for Europe as well like you know there's just been this narrative about football being broken and and like the spectacle the spectacle being it's like but he's streaming he's right no no no I don't I'm disagreeing with you it's also fun there's also different things there's also different things you want from entertainment too it's like you want for a whisker so many things got me so many storylines so many aspects of this season to latch on to yeah but there's like if you know it's not just about the football on shore for the 90 minutes it's about how even the league is how some of these tactics are actually levelling things up if Tottenham were to go down for instance that would be one of the most remarkable stories of the last 30 years well there's a question have you said who's played in the last month the worst of all Tottenham they've been the worst team for me watching them do you know Tony who's one of the teams playing best of all Wolves Lincoln City Wolves don't you start about Lincoln City Lincoln City don't you start about they're second they're second they're not tommies we're glad you missed the EFL show that happened earlier in the week but Wolves are playing some of the best football yeah yeah eighth wonder of the world if you want to talk about things that would be the most exceptional things they are obviously a long way off safety still 12 points behind West Ham and Nottingham Forest is just 16 points for the season, but they've won the last two games.

45:29And looking at their fixtures, these are their fixtures, okay? Brentford away, Monday night in a week's time. West Ham away. Then they've got Leeds, and then they've got Tottenham. They've got Sunderland. Sunderland's season by this point, probably, you know, Brighton the same. They've got Fulham at home and Burnley. Anyone? Anyone having it? No? It's wonder of the world if they stay up. No chance? No chance. No chance. What? Even the way they're playing in the minute? I'm not. They beat Liverpool. They drew with Arsenal. They looked brilliant in both those games. We've just had a conversation about...

46:01So much needs to go wrong. Yeah, everything. Everything around them. So much needs to go wrong. And the fact that West Ham won last night. Forrest picked up a point. I mean, if Tottenham won tonight, it would pretty much... They'd need... League would inform to stay up. It would be absolutely crackers, of course it would. But this season is absolutely crackers. You know, Tottenham might have three managers by the end of the season. Nottingham Forrest has had four. This is one of the most truly mental seasons I've ever worked in. It's honestly... Wolves could have gone through the entire season with a change strip of a pair of shorts.

46:32Why is that? If you look at Wolves, you look at Wolves' colours, they wouldn't have to change against anybody. All of the strips. Anybody. All of the strips. Anybody, apart from Newcastle, you'd have to change your shorts. Right. A pair of old gold shorts or, you know. And possibly Tottenham. Not the reason that they wish... Possibly Tottenham. Because Fulham, for some reason, have given up on the black shorts this season. They're playing in all white because they think they're Leeds. I don't know why. So they could have actually, if you want to save money, if you think you're going to get relegated, you could have gone through the entire season with your change trip, just a pair of shorts.

47:07Save on the washing. Joe, one small thing on the kits thing. I really like it when Manchester United play at Newcastle and wear red, white, white. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Against the Newcastle's black. Anyway, that's just a little personal thing. So who's going down then at the bottom? Obviously going into this game against Tottenham tonight, they could change it all. It's an impossible question. but particularly around Forest and West Ham they're now level on points it's going to be fascinating even if Tottenham win tonight and everyone says they're okay now who's in the better form who's more worried, who do you think hardest question of the show there's really very little between clearly they're on the same points but I mean in terms of actually the feeling I think within the camp Pereira has delivered an uptick he hadn't I don't think he's got a win in the Premier League yet but his performances in Europe were brilliant and that should have beaten Liverpool really so he has he has like elicited some positivity there and we just discussed the same as Amos with Nuno Spurs are the team in free fall it could change tonight like at the moment when you're asking me at the moment I would say Spurs with Burnley and Wolves would you really?

48:14you don't you don't see no I don't it's one of them if we come out Nuno relegates Forrest part of me would like that for the kind of chaotic next time for us running football clubs if at the start of the season imagine that do you know what my prediction is Nuno will be West Ham manager and he'll relegate Nottingham Forest at the end of the season that's bonkers isn't it yeah well sometimes these mad scenarios come up it's really hard to I mean look the bottom two are gone for me there's just no chance there's too big a gap for them but who's the other one with West Ham having that you know their wins of late they've put himself with a bit of hope I was like Martin.

48:50I totally thought West Ham had no chance of staying up. I didn't see anything in games I was watching, going to the London Stadium, watching the end of last season. I was like, wow, this West Ham team were in serious trouble. But they found something, and Nuno's got to take a lot of credit for it. He's made the goalkeeper a goalkeeper again. I mean, that's... Had a great save last time. Oh, absolutely. But that is Graham Potter's signing. and that is Graham Potter's guy that was his top transfer priority was to get that goalkeeper in and they got him in and he chucked in three goals a game and looked as if he couldn't catch a bag of cement and and now you see him and you think right they've really worked with him they've really worked with him Greg are just finishing on a few refereeing decisions some good some bad in this game Alex Uwebe probably quite lucky to get away with a handball that was quite a long quite a long way from his body Martin's taking a big deep inhale of breath there but I would say there's good intervention on the non-penalty that was given given and not given on the bleeding obvious, yeah I thought we were going to have you and Greg very upset on this one earlier today it is the bleeding obvious it is a grey area where you intercept someone whose leg is on the downswing of a shot that is given as a foul we've seen it given as a foul it was given as a foul the one outside the box so it is a bit of a grey area but I think it was right I think it was right not to give a foul bit of controversy as well in Bournemouth 0-0 Brentford 0-0 people getting 50 cuffs after that game I'm sure we'll talk about VAR again this season but loads of football as well discussed on today's show we'll leave it there Tony Cascarino Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me as always thank you too for listening we'll be back with the regular show on Monday we'll see you then

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