Why Bellingham isn't a Tuchel player, Irish joy and Ronaldo woe

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the times England might have qualified for the World Cup with a perfect record, but it was Ireland and Troy Parrott who stole the headlines this weekend by securing a dramatic last-minute playoff place with a 3-2 win against Hungary after that brilliant victory against Portugal too. On today's show, we'll discuss Ireland's miracles, Cristiano Ronaldo's final role as a pantomime villain, and debate the tension that exists between Thomas Tuchel and some of his benched superstars. We'll also look at the other big stories from qualification and finish by hearing about the former Premier League stars now playing Sunday League football.

0:39I'm Tom Clark and joining me today, we have the reporter and European football expert, Tom Allnut, the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson, and the former Republic of Ireland striker and Times columnist straight from the pub and into the studio. It's Tony Cascarino. Called off the bench. You knew, didn't you? I never saw the sort of night. I see Tom's on. I've even said to me, missus as I'm on the set, I'm going, I'm doing the podcast tomorrow. So just to be clear, this is Tony Cascarino conforming to type, being a former footballer, a bit of a prima donna. He wasn't originally down to do this show.

1:11No, you dropped me. Yeah, I left you on the back burner for Thursday. I wanted you to come in with the big insights, but then I thought, no, we're going to have to get you in. Tony says that the 1990 World Cup WhatsApp group has been going wild. Yeah, it was hilarious watching the game. You must be getting it. I mean, it's the 1990s WhatsApp group. It's all the players, obviously, that were there. And it was just pinging left and right as the game's going on. And then when I listened to Ray Houghton on RTE's commentary, and he's saying 15 minutes to go, just get it in the box. I'm telling you, they're literally telling everyone they're going to score.

1:41And it was like, is he a genius? As he's doing commentary. It was just so funny and what a night. It's sending tingles down my spine already because it was just like fantastic. And Toto Parrot, because there was Toto Scolacci in Italy. We've got Toto Parrot. I hope I had that one, eh? I mean, this is what is wonderful about Irish sport is that like for a long time, and you must say that this is not, it's not been going well this qualification campaign until these two games you know we you throw me under the bus i'm going to throw you under the bus now tony last week when you were talking about coming on thursday's podcast i was like well they're not going to beat portugal are they and you went no i don't think so so you know listen we've not expected this we didn't see this coming no but it's an amazing turnaround because they had a draw with hungary in september that was a last minute equalizer as well and then lost then losing to armenia then lost to portugal and and only just beating Armenia 1-0.

2:33So going into these two games, that all adds to it, doesn't it? I mean, that's a very Irish football way of doing it, leaving it to the last minute, being the complete underdogs, and then pulling off two remarkable wins. Well, I'll throw you under the bus, because I did say after the Portugal game, we need to talk about Troy Parrott. Yeah, we need to do a column on Troy Parrott. Look, let's just both say sorry at the same time. Now we start, at the very start of the campaign, I was on Irish radio, and I was very optimistic about Ireland's chances because I just felt they were a great mentality of the group.

3:09And then what happened was completely derailed by the Armenia result away. That totally changed. No one saw that coming. We saw some good performances, obviously hungry, 2-0 down at home. We get back to 2-2. And there were signs that it's starting to look like more of a team. Seamus Coleman come back in from that Armenia result. and Seamus is as good a pro. I don't know him personally, but if you look at him as a professional footballer, he's just such a great pro for Everton and the Republic of Ireland. And there was just something in the Portuguese game. Again, I did a radio on Friday night and I just said, there's something about this group I just really love.

3:49And the Troy Parrott stuff is just really interesting. What do you think it is? Is it spirit? Well, it's that. And I also think credit the manager. Yeah. Harold Grimson, you know, he recognised that they had to go hell for leather after a dreadful start. By the way, Dominic Slavislaire was going to be absolutely gay. He was the best player on the pitch by a mile, and he's not going to the World Cup. But they take in an early league. Great goals as well. You've got to say Hungary's goals were brilliant. The two goals. Obviously the corner for the first, which was a great, you know, well-worked drill, which, you know, was just a great, just a balling from Slough Slough.

4:28Anyway, and then Vargas' goal. But the fact that one thing that struck me is that, and I'm going to mention Troy Parrott again, because I, and I'm saying to Gregor before we come on air, that he's a set, there's centre forwards that are playing in the game today that need a partner, that need someone to feed them, give them service, be on the knockdowns. And when he gets the goal from the Scales knockdown and he gets into that area and gets across the keeper and just tips those in. This is the winner, isn't it? Delicate touch. That's a predator's goal. And Robbie Keane done that a lot. But he had Noel Quinn, and I played with Robbie as well.

5:02Robbie was that, and he's the all-time record goal scorer of Ireland. And that type of goal he could do. And I know that Parrott can do them sort of things in front of goal. And he's had loads of injuries. So, you know, if you take the Tottenham days and through Millwall, Milton, Keane's Dons, and with Gregor again, we were chatting about his career, and he'd been blighted by injuries. But there's also a big thing of when you get to 23, 24 years of age, there's lots of examples of players who suddenly, who weren't good enough, become good enough. Even if you want to go to the ultimate king of that, it's Mo Salah.

5:35Mo Salah at Chelsea at 20, 21 wasn't good enough. But by 23, 24, he was. Just on parrot then. So as you say, he's 23, started at Tottenham, made his debut under Jose Mourinho in 2019, had loan spells at Millwall, Ipswich, MK Dons, Preston, Excelsior. finally getting a run of games at the kind of those last two loan spells moves permanently to AZ Alkmaar in the summer of 2024 for around£7 million scored 20 goals in 47 games last season this season has got 13 in 14 not including all these goals he scored for Ireland so as you say it's just starting to click for someone I was at the Palace game when they visited and he didn't get a touch and we should also point out he wouldn't have played if Evan Ferguson was fit so it's like his greatest opportunity but what Tony said is right because he's been around for a while he's been in the consciousness you know any Spurs fan or anyone who knows about Premier League football knew he was such a huge prospect for a long long time and really highly thought of and I go oh Craig he's still only 23 and I thought he's right like people develop at different rates and this could be a completely like you know game changing moment I don't think he needs a partner I just think I would have said that Eddie Nketa is the type of player as well that he's not a striker because he's not big enough to lead the line and he's not quick enough I mean he's sharp but he's not blisteringly quick like Izak would be.

6:52So he needs a partner to play alongside. And if they create things from set pieces like he did in Dublin, he can get across people and get goals. And so that is the really great thing. And fair play to the manager for, you know, really having a game plan by the end. And I mean, when he took O 'Brien off and he put Manning in at left back, and Manning is a deliverer of a ball. You know, Ryan Manning will get on the ball and he will just keep whipping them in. A bit like Andy Robson did for Scotland, that early ball. and hey just being in the hat is just an absolute So did the group chat keep going after full time?

7:27When's the reunion happening? I can't give you who said what but the first start of the conversation was right who fancies a Guinness? And I put back I said yeah I'm going for one who's joining me so all the other Ireland players were all around the country and they went right let's meet in Rumours well Rumours was a nightclub in Dublin and it was you know Malahide or Rumours like this is again a bar in the so we had all this chat going on and I went out and had a couple of Guinnesses last night and there's a lot of them players, John Aldridge has got a picture of a pint of Guinness in front of him like that and he's very like it's called Well Cup 90 only players

8:11yeah the only players fantastic, well I'm well here for the game podcast special where we all go for a couple of pints of Guinness and just listen to a few old tales if you want, Tony, so you can set that up. Has that been done now? I need to go back to the pub. No, you're not done yet because we need to also talk about the amazing performance against Portugal, which as well, I mean, unbelievable game. Ain't far great now. We all love VAR now. As you say, Tony, a 2-0 win, more goals for Troy Parrott, but really this game, all about one man, Cristiano Ronaldo. When is it not about Cristiano Ronaldo?

8:45Just from the Irish point of view, I did, and you mentioned Seamus Coleman already, I loved the highlights afterwards. I've liked Seamus Coleman going around, all the players trying to calm them down when you could tell Ronaldo was going to get sent off and all the crowd are going and Coleman's going around going, lads, just focus on the game. Like, come on, Seamus, for God's sake. We're winning and Ronaldo's about to be sent off. This is the best game ever. This is absolutely unbelievable. They were good enough to beat them without that happening, but it was definitely a big moment, wasn't it?

9:12Yeah, I mean, the game itself was, you know, they dominated possession. and their forward line was Yael Felix, Bernardo Silva and Ronaldo. And you're thinking, that's a three, that three. And yet, a game plan just hurt them with a direct ball because Kellenberg did it a lot in the game, just going straight from back to front. And it worked in set pieces. They couldn't defend. That was the biggest thing about Portugal. Defensively, they were all over the place. They didn't know how to defend against Ireland on the night. The Ronaldo was, I said, I was actually watching it going, I love VAR now.

9:49Just literally. Bet the WhatsApp group was popping with that one as well. Great three minutes of VAR. I mean, it is fascinating then, like Cristiano Ronaldo, like sent off for an elbow, loudly and widely mocked by Ireland fans, sarcastically applauding them back. Then Portugal go and win 9-1 without him, which really adds to the narrative. He could and probably then should miss some opening games of the World Cup through suspension. He's 41 in February. I mean, is this pantomime villain act a bit in danger of spoiling his reputation, Tom? I don't think it's going to spoil his reputation. Because in a way, I think we've known this about Ronaldo his whole career, haven't we?

10:24I mean, Ronaldo has never been a sort of a player where, you know, you can rely on him. He's the guy you like. He's always been that villain. I think he's always fed off it as well. I mean, this was a sort of a supporter's dream, wasn't it? You always have that thing where fans think they can get under a player's skin by sort of, you know, shouting abuse at them. And they think, well, you know, we'll try and get him sent off, rile him up. and usually the player completely just, you know, blanks it or there's that kind of old line when it made me play better. Whereas Ronaldo, like, delivered that lovely reminder to fans that actually it can happen.

10:50You can sort of get a player sent off just by winding them up. But in terms of his reputation, like, this is Ronaldo, isn't it? We've seen him sort of cry at major tournaments when he doesn't score goals. I mean, it was the last tournament, wasn't it, where he was sort of trying to score in that match and, you know, over and over again was taking all the free kicks and shooting every time he got the ball. Like, he is, you know, a walking legendary tantrum, isn't he? Like, that is what it is. and he has always been that. Yeah, he does. But to be fair, like, I understand this debate always about Ronaldo and whether he should play for Portugal, but he scored 14 goals in the last 15 games, you know, and I don't see another striker.

11:24I mean, you know, Gonzalo Ramos, but he's not really playing for PSG, to be honest. So it's not as if there's a sort of ready-made replacement. And I think most teams going into a World Cup, you've got a player who scored 14 goals in the last 15 games. You say, well, yeah, he deserves to start, doesn't he? The idea is you've got to get players around him that do the job that, you know, can press where he doesn't press and can play where he doesn't play. The thing that's going to happen, in my opinion, is he's going to be banned for the first game, isn't he? They're going to play brilliantly in that first game and everyone will be saying, should he start the second one?

11:49And it'll be an ongoing debate and that's what Roberto Martins has got to solve. Well, as I say, that already starts with that 9-1 win. I appreciate they're beating Armenia, but it is, I mean, Tony's still laughing. Are you sure you've not had a few pints before this show? I find the Ronaldo one because we should all be applauding him for his, you know, caps record, his goal record for Portugal and then his goals in world football, he could get Pele and he surpassed Pele by a country mile a number of years ago. He's done incredible things in the game, but there's something really unlikable about him when he just doesn't feel very humble on any level.

12:24It's like Tom said, every free kick he's taken and when they concede the first goal, he's having a go at him and you think, well, yeah, he's the captain. He's got the right to have a go at somebody. But it feels like I get the feeling that, I don't know, I can't prove it, but it felt like the appointment of Roberto Martinez was Ronaldo wants him in so he's got to be the manager because he's not going to drop me and he's not going to leave me out and he's not going to you know it's funny you say that the Martinez quotes afterwards were amazing did you see these about Ronaldo sending off well he's never been sent off before in 226 games so I think that deserves credit he just tried to elbow knock someone's head off he said it was harsh as well today I think it was a bit harsh because he cares about the team his 60 minutes in the box being grabbed being pulled I mean put some violins in after this producer Daniel Willian being pushed and when he tries to get away from the defender I think the action looks worse than it actually is I don't think it's an elbow I think it's the full body but from where the camera is it looks like an elbow in the press conference yesterday was your coach was talking about the aspects of the referees being influenced and then a big centre-half falls on the floor so dramatically I mean that could not more buy into Tony your idea that Roberto Martinez is like don't worry Cristiano all fine whatever you want sir those quotes are ridiculous aren't they?

13:39Ridiculous. David Walsh's column was good as well at the weekend he used the little story at the end about General Franco's death and there was like the civil service were in session and they were like pass it on, Franco's dead and pass it on and it got round to the foreign minister twice and he was like yes I know but who's going to tell him? And it's like it's the same sort of thing, who's going to be brave when I have to say Ronaldo, that's you done. I loved it when he said this will be my last World Cup, like oh you're going to the World Cup but yeah that's Ronaldo of course he's going to say that he knows he is and there is a valid point that Tom has made I mean the goals that he's got and in qualification but you are clearly watching a sportsman that is nowhere near as good as he once was but can still be a player in the 18 yard box I just don't think against elite opposition he'll make the same impact I just don't we definitely think FIFA are going to walk through see through this suspension do we Tom by the way because I mean he should be he could be he should and probably get two games but they'll find out they'll follow Roberto Martinez's reasons that it was the full body and not an elbow.

14:38It can be one, can't it? It can be one. It should be two. They'll go down the middle of the road. It should be two. He should be missing the first two games and then probably not playing again. That's what should happen, probably. Yeah. Because Portugal will win the first two games. I've still got too much ban to serve. Is that why you knocked it on its head? Well, I retired at Turkey and then I got too much ban so I could never be called up again. Should we start a petition? If they make it to this World Cup, should we start a petition to get you back in the squad as like a 27th man? I'd love to go.

15:05Get all the boys involved as well. Just a little bit of funny geekery I noticed in the two team lineups as well from the Armenia game. Portugal's forward was G Ramos and Armenia's forward was G Ranos. Love that. Really love that. Really love that. Very interesting as well, just very quickly on Italy, beaten 4-1 by Norway. Erling Haaland scoring twice, Italy into the playoffs and therefore in danger of missing their second World Cup. I mean, the only thing that slightly redeems Italy for me is the fact that the manager is Gennaro Gattuso, which I think is fantastic. And that would be a fantastic thing to see at a World Cup.

15:37But Tom, I mean, this would be basically scandalous, wouldn't it, for Italy to miss two World Cups, which from our point of view is a neutral, but also in that country, that would be disaster. Is it scandalous? I think it is. Italy don't play at World Cups anymore. I'm so upset about the idea of Italy not being there. That blue kit, everything about them, just watching players go and do the, you know, well, come on, ref. It's not a World Cup without Italy there doing that. But they've missed the last two. I mean, you look back now and you think that Euros win they had against England just feels like a complete asterisk, doesn't it?

16:06In the middle of this period of 10, 12 years now of Italy, where the national team has been a complete disappointment all the way through. They had this one brilliant tournament where they sort of happened to beat England in the final. But otherwise, Italy have been struggling for ages now. They're just not really producing the players they used to. I mean, you look at the squads that they're delivering. You know, I mean, even the players playing in the Premier League, like Calafiore, there's some good players, but they're defensive players. Tonali yeah Tonali they're not really creating the sort of same you know where's the Baggio you know where's the Totti the Del Piero's you know the players they used to produce in the 90s where they would just had forwards coming out of their ears it's just a lot of I think quite samey players at the moment and you look at like all the kind of I mean they won the under 23s and the under 19s in the last three or four years so there is some talent kind of coming through lower down but I just think this has been a real sort of miss of a generation for Italy all the way through yeah it would be a shame I think anyone else no one else upset by the idea of Italy and missing a World Cup.

17:00Definitely care as long as Ireland get there. Tascarino. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you'll be Italian for that one. I'll be Irish. There'd be no mean feat in a 48-team World Cup as well. Oh, it'd be... Yeah, that's what I mean. That's where the scandal would come, surely. Basically, everyone can get there. We're going to come on to the idea that Scotland might even get there in a minute. But speak too soon, Tom. Didn't they lose out last time to North Macedonia? Yeah, they did. I mean, that was the one they got in the knockout. I think they could get them again. I might be wrong. I've read that somewhere.

17:25They could possibly get them again. Yeah, Ian Hawkey wrote an excellent piece on Italy's woes on the Times website over the weekend. Make sure you dig it out. It explains it in even more detail. As I said, Gregor, Tuesday night, the big one. You think Tony's had a big time. You're going to be celebrating like nobody's business if Scotland can pull off the most unbelievable shock ever and qualify direct for the World. No playoffs, just straight there. Scotland v Denmark, a straight ahead to head at the top of Group C. A win and Steve Clarke's side will reach the World Cup for the first time since 1998.

17:5498 listeners the look on Gregor's face as I'm saying this he's wincing pure terror pure terror there's so much conflict going on it's like there's still the idea that we're becoming lucky but there's still a game to go we can still become unlucky again you know revert to time quite easily so yeah it was like I think you kind of think we've been used to you know inglorious failure and it's like are we gonna be inglorious you know success now is that a little pivoted to and it's but we're still not there yet so before you were like you know plucky and heartbroken and now you well in Lewis 2. Crap and lucky.

18:25Yeah. I'll take it all day long. All day long. Because my God, we were crap in that first half. Yeah, yeah. Awful. Awful. And then first half injury time came along and we were, we've got three chances, missed them, and then started the second half brilliantly. Missed in a bunch of sitters again and then they scored two goals and you're like, that's that done. And then just bonkers, absolutely bonkers the second half when you found out what was going on with the Belarus game and, you know, they were beating Denmark and then we got a goal back and then it was a draw and then basically just to find myself like refreshing the screen on my phone for like five minutes at the end to find out the score and confirm the draw So you've got Tony Castrino sat chatting with the boys going, we're off to the World Cup, lads he wants a pint and it's just you sat on your own going oh my god, what's happening with Belarus?

19:13I can't take this anymore Basically, that's what Scotland reduced me to So not confident in any way, shape or form Home match? one thing I loved though was Steve Clarke at the end he basically seemed like we've got to believe in ourselves more and he's right I'm like good luck Steve good luck with that you just told him crap well we were and he said at the last game he said because he became the manager of most games he went past Craig Brown in the last camp and he was like this was the worst of my entire tenure and he's like I'm scratching my head I don't know what's going on but he said he had a quote after this game He's like, we need to play with anticipation of success and not the fear of failure.

19:54Like, that's quite poetic for Steve Clark. And he's right. Like, we need, he's really, what he's doing there is trying to G up Hamden because Hamden booed in the last thing. And that's never happened. Like, we're like, we're kind of used to the possibility. Indeed, we're used to getting to tournaments now, you know, for a couple of euros. And he's saying to Hamden, we need you. And he's right. Like, if Hamden is in, you know, the Hamden Roar is in full force, and Scotland like play just play with a bit of the freedom we did in the second half then we've got a chance because Denmark are stinking as well at the moment I've got to ask you Gregor was it 98 the song is we'll be coming home soon was that the Scottish song?

20:35Don't come home too soon that was it well not that miserable you say you've got one point in UK moments soon yeah well that's what happened to me again that's the other point is there any you know the Irish are in good mood this morning aren't they you're not there yet either Tone celebrated like you were that's again the brilliant thing about the Irish fans is that all the memes and everything on social media are like we're going to win the World Cup absolutely fantastic well even the songs we had was going to win the World Cup we actually did a song we were singing it because you have all these songs like in England they had Back Home in 70 and had World in Motion I remember we were singing it and we were going to win the World Cup and it was like as we were singing it we were laughing is this the official songs for like 1990 Oh, yeah, we had one in 90.

21:20And yours was... Give it a lash, Jack. That was in 1990. Give it a lash. And he's on our house island, which on our house, it means he's on your back. So if someone... Because when I first played for Ireland, Paul McGraw was shouting at me, saying, he's on your house, he's on your house. Right. And I remember saying to Paul during the... What do you mean he's on my... He went, on your back. As in, right, man on. Yeah, yeah, man on, yeah. But that's how they say it. They say it is on your house. So, Ireland, that was a song that was done by Larry Mullen, who was the drummer of U2. Fantastic. Honestly, we could have just listened to Tony talk about it.

21:56No, it was hilarious, because even today, literally, we'd gone from the pub to sing the song. He said he'd want to get you in the mood to sing a song, so we went to the pub then. I see. Those were the days. That was Ireland in 94. They don't make him like that anymore. Where are you going to be watching tomorrow night, Gregor? On my wall. At home. In the dark. In the dark, on your own. Always, yeah. I was burnt by doing that in the last Euros. Went out to, you know, found a Scottish pub at Kings Cross and met a couple of mates and stuff and were just absolutely awful. It was the most depressing night of my life.

22:25So on my own in the dark. On your own. It's a bit dark. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. Scotland put you through it like that. One of the happiest moments of my, like, recent memory was the Serbia game. And again, this was during COVID, so you had no choice. This is the penalty shootout, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember like, we just had a little girl and she was asleep upstairs. And I was up punching the air on my own in the dark. It was so sad, but everyone else was like doing the same thing. That was almost, that felt safe. Have you ever seen him so happy? Yeah. Honestly. Lovely memories.

23:00Great moment on my own. Let's hope for more joy on your own in the dark. That's what football does to you. Yeah. It does. It does to all the fans, you know, England, Scotland, Wales. What's been so lovely about this international break is that everyone's saying, oh, I can't wait for Premier League football. And I've actually feel like I'd love another international weekend. As long as there's jeopardy. We love the jeopardy, don't we? Yeah, the jeopardy. This is the reward for all the previous international breaks when we've been like, oh my God, how's this going? This is when you get to the good stuff, as you say, Gregor, with that Serbia penalty shootout, Ireland making the playoffs.

23:34If Scotland can do it, I mean, it'd be amazing. I'm looking forward to hearing about your celebrations in the dark on your own. On Thursday's show, Wales, we should say, They are also in action on Tuesday night with a home game against North Macedonia. They are on course to finish second as well. Loads more still to discuss. We should talk about England, of course. So we're going to do that after a quick break and it's time for a little quiz question for the guys. Nice and easy. We need to get Gregor Robertson back into winning ways. England have qualified for the World Cup without conceding a goal.

24:02But how many teams have achieved this feat before? Find out after the break.

24:19welcome back to the game at football podcast from the times i'm tom clark and i've got tom allnut gregor robson and tony cascarino with me tony was too busy chatting to the boys on the whatsapp group to answer the quiz question tom and gregor both made guesses split the difference the answer was three teams have previously qualified for world cups without conceding a goal italy in 1934 turkey in 1915 yugoslava in 1954 england are the fourth Spain can be the fifth to do so. So none of them went on to win the World Cup? No. So what you're saying is you're just calling it that. It's a stupid statistic, doesn't it?

24:52Most of them are. Someone a little bit upset that he didn't get the answer to the quiz question. All these journalists on this show, very competitive. But another win for Thomas Tuchel's side, Tom. Another clean sheet. It is a very impressive qualification record, regardless of what you say about the opposition. I think it's eight games, eight wins, 22 goals, four non-conceded. whatever you want to say about their future prospects that is a good way for qualifying for a World Cup yeah and it's got better and better I think to be honest the first three or four games in this kind of campaign I think everyone was a little bit underwhelmed has to be said they were struggling for kind of creativity and I think they've kind of building a bit of a crescendo I think these last two or three matches you can see what Tuchel's trying to do the lineup is there I would say there's only two three possibly four spots now available in the kind of starting 11 perhaps and you can you know okay the opposition is is is obviously very middling very poor England should be beating these teams with the options they have but I think more important than the results and even that record even though it is impressive I just think is the rhythm that England feel like they're building um I think that continuity for a team like this is really important and and even you know in this game I feel like the debates around for example Harry Kane I mean you know he's in the form of his life arguably you know and this is the kind a match where you know you take Harry Kane out of this team and it's a sort of slightly niggling slightly awkward sort of game that's drifting a bit two goals end of the match it's done you know he's a killer like that and that's the thing that England have I think there's all this talk about Bellingham and Palmer and Foden but ultimately if Kane is fit and he's firing and he's playing in the form that he is in the moment where he scored what like something like 26 goals in 20 games a season or something then they're going into a world cup with basically the form player in the world in my opinion right now and I mean this game was it was a great example of that so there are questions.

26:35I still think, obviously, that when we've seen England against elite opponents, for example, Senegal, the Serbia game was a good statement win, but we haven't seen much evidence in terms of what they're actually going to face next summer. So they can still mess it up from here. Let's not lie about it. They can still go to the tournament and stick the place out. But I think this qualifying campaign has been impressive, and also I think they go into it now with a very clear idea about what Tuchel wants and what the team could be. Gregor, would you agree with that? yeah I mean it's clearly gone from strength to strength and there's players who've kind of who are emerging too O 'Reilly's like was brilliant in both games I thought he can do kind of all things that modern left backs are expected to do the thing about Miles Oluskele he's like oh he can step into midfield but O 'Reilly can kind of there's times he was popping up at like number 10 there's times where he can do the overlap he can you know command the flank as well he's like brilliant really comfortable on the ball so that's been a huge bonus is he one of the ones then Tom said you said what three or four places up for grabs what do we think they are then number 10 obviously because that's been the biggest talking point for so long but also left back left wing Tony's showing me messages from John Aldridge on his phone I'm trying to concentrate the players only World Cup 90 messages are coming still coming do you know what we're just on Tony we're talking about England now just leave it Tony if you want to head off thanks very much for joining us Tony Cascarino go get around him go get around him before Guinness we'll be down in about 20 minutes Anyway, what was I saying?

28:01I've completely forgotten. Now the idea of... Well, O 'Reilly. Miss O 'Reilly. The idea of having a pint. Oh, yeah. So, Tom said it there, didn't he? Talking about the places up for grabs and the spots in the team. So, number 10. I think it's left back, the other centre back, left wing, and number 10. So, you say the other centre back, the other centre back alongside Grahi or alongside Stones? I think alongside Stones, if he's fit. Konzo would be... Konzo or Grahi. Ahead of gear. Konzo or Grahi. Oh, sorry. Yeah, Konzo Gai or Stones will, whether they go two at the back, which I'm sure they probably will do, won't they?

28:33O 'Reilly's done, as Greg has said, brilliantly well. I go back to what Tom said earlier. One of the biggest questions that I think England have to do is play elite teams before the World Cup. I think it's imperative. You know, beating Ireland 5-0 in a friendly and beating Latvia 5 and beating Serbia 5. Yeah, fantastic in qualifying campaign. But you want real stone. In the warm-up games. Absolutely. Stern tests, you've got to have them because you're going to learn a lot more from them type of games, even though they're going to be friendlies, about who's really on top of their game. I just feel that it's needed.

29:11You can't keep whipping everybody. Then suddenly you get to a tournament and yes, you'll probably get through the group phase, which England were nine times out of ten, I would imagine would do. But then suddenly you come up against a really well-drilled team and know exactly what you're about and then give you different problems. England have to face that before that. I think when France won it in 98, they played, I think it was Italy away and lost 4-1 or Germany away. And I remember, I'm going to name drop here. Emi Jacqui, his son was at Nancy when I was playing at my final years in Nancy. And he came and we were sitting in the dressing room talking and he said, I want tough games before the tournament in France.

29:49He said, we've got to have it. We've got to play very good teams before we play. because, you know, to win it, we've got to find where we are because you can beat a lot of these teams. England have had an absolute stroll. I've never known a campaign where it's a thing that England haven't conceded. Is that not because they are one of the best teams? I mean, they're going to be one of the favourites, aren't they, for the World Cup? Yeah, of course they are. Of course they are. I mean, it'll be a massive challenge in America because of, you know, how the African teams will get there and what they'll be like and what the South Americans and then the top European teams.

30:22You've got to have tests. You have to have stern teams to play against who are going to give you problems. And the heat. I mean, we're going to talk about the heat a lot, obviously, in the next six months. There's going to be all these things. It was a nightmare in 94. We played Mexico at 12 o 'clock midday. How hot? It was 112 degrees at 12 o 'clock. I mean, I'm sure that because of the Club World Cup last year that they are recognising that certain games are going to be scheduled differently. But there's still problems. The weather is very changeable and very hot and very rainstorms and, you know, different issues to deal with.

30:56So I think there's a lot to be said for England having a tough amount of games before they actually go. It's even a good thing not conceding a goal because you go to the tournament and suddenly, you know, you concede a goal in the first 20 minutes. You don't know how to react. We haven't done this for 18 months. You know? I know, it's a silly point, but it's that kind of thing where you're not used to kind of game situations. It's part of it. What do we do now? What do we do now? Yeah, this has never happened before. Greg is sitting there thinking, as a vendor I was waiting for the question I mean to be fair they gifted him a few opportunities against Alpena Dan Byrne did in particular I mean I don't want to be down Dan Byrne but I don't think he should be going to be honest no his kind of narrative trajectory is a strange one isn't it picked at the start big guys and oh my god Dan Byrne's in the England squad and you're like by the end of it thanks Dan cheers mate nice Jordan Edison's a little bit there now as well isn't he where he's he's in the squad but he's there but you don't feel he's going to play.

31:52There's so many other players. Which has often been the thing with Henderson. He's there for the, you know, leadership off the pitch and in the dressing room and all that kind of stuff. So just going back then, which other position? Left wing? For grabs, Marcus Rashford against Anthony Gordon. Is that the kind of... I think so, and possibly Eze. But I think Eze's more of an option off the bench. You know, coming on, he did bring him on to the left wing and he obviously did great in the game the other day. But I think as a starter, you want that width, which obviously we know from the previous tournament, you really need that, you know, left footer as well.

32:21I think Gordon hasn't had a great start to the season, so I think Rashford's probably the one with the shirt, if you like. But I think if Gordon has a good end to the season, then he can also bring it there. Anthony Gordon fan club over here, Greg. No, no, I think Gordon would be the one if the World Cup started tomorrow and everyone was fit. I think it would be Gordon, yeah. I was thinking about the point you made on last Thursday's show about Gordon's effort defensively and his work rate being slightly better than Rashford's, you know, that being the concept. But surely in the group stage, we might be playing teams that England are going to want to be front foot.

32:49Would you not then go Rashford and then maybe have Gordon as the option for when you're playing the tougher teams? No, for me, I don't think their approach will change dramatically in terms of they'll still be trying to press high and that's what Ducal said. You want to be great in the opposition's face and press very intensely. So I think Gordon is a big part of that. And I think he's so positive when he gets the ball too. He's direct and got a lot of drive. So I think you saw that with Bellingham too. like we've had this whole conversation about Bellingham for so long you just see that every time he gets the ball he wants to make something happen yeah like even for the second goal he could have possibly been a foul but he won the ball back and then he didn't just play a safe pass he looked he played that kind of I think it was into Foden wasn't it and Foden got on the turn every time he gets the ball he looks forward he wants to make something happen every single time even when he's playing like there's times when after the uh the first goal went in last night where they're just playing little, like Elliot Anderson come on as well, and they're just playing little passes, like little triangles and stuff.

33:53He's always one touch really quick. It's like even those things are played with purpose. It's like, let's keep moving them quickly around and then space will open up. Always so much purpose to everything he does. Look, there's form in November and October and there's form in March, April, May. And that will count for some of these players because some of them won't be playing as well and there'll be others that'll be playing way better than they did in these months. look, there's a high bar there. England have got an unbelievable luxury of players. You know, I look at the England team and think, you can literally double treble up on every position.

34:26I mean, probably the left back is probably the exception. You'd probably look up O 'Reilly. Who would we pick his left back? Luke Shaw. If it was starting tomorrow, who would we pick his left back? Well, I think because of what Greg has said about O 'Reilly, I think the Tuchel's probably gone. There's always one player that breaks the door down, you know, comes in and goes literally, suddenly he's in the team. Bailey Anderson's done it, too. there's been a bit of discovery in this campaign too there were problem positions, now you've got a couple of options there Warton obviously played and he's so classy, he just doesn't quite get around in the same way I don't think he's not quite as dynamic as Anderson Anderson's an interesting one isn't it because it's that thing where we've been talking for decades about how England are lacking that kind of controlling playmaker in a midfield and particularly with the heat in a major tournament I always think that's basically been the one thing that England have lacked in those big knockout games.

35:16But it's a different thing controlling a match against Armenia than it is controlling a match against Spain, you know, in a semifinal. Can Anderson, you know, when he's got all that time on the ball and you're playing a dominant match, can he dictate when he's got Zubemendi next to him? You know, like, or Spain pressing in Pedri there. You know, that's a different thing. I don't think he's expected to. I don't think England don't have that player. I don't think he's come in to be that player. I think he's being, he's a kind of hybrid 6-8, but he's got really good defensive sort of instincts and nous and biting the tackle and he reads the game well and he keeps possession so many stats in the Premier League this season he's at the top of, he's so all-rounded, multifaceted, skillful player, so I think that's going to be his role and it also frees up Declan Rice a little bit more to go forward so it's about having balance, I don't think England don't have a player who can control and dictate the tempo, he's not that player no one should expect that but he's he's the best option you have in that position you dodged my question on the left back Mr.

36:13Left Back pick one starts tomorrow O 'Reilly yeah strange amazing he's never have you know he's made a big impression in these two games and to be fair over the start of the season I think a lot of times we've seen him and he's been really impressive he's grown in stature he looks like he's quite good defensively as well that's your only question mark but on the ball he's so comfortable and as I say he can do all he can he can step inside He's a big lad, isn't he? He's very tall for a fullback. He opens his legs, he gets away from people. Yeah, physicality a big thing for Thomas Tuchel as well.

36:47Coming back to Jude Bellingham, Gregor, you talked about his desire and his commitment all the time. And we're probably seeing that a little bit with the story on the Times website today about Thomas Tuchel talking about Jude Bellingham being subbed off, Morgan Rodgers coming on, all these players not being happy. I actually thought Thomas Tuchel's post-match press conference on ITV, I think it was, was absolutely brilliant. He's talking with a smile and saying, yeah, yeah, it's fine. Jude's not happy. Morgan wasn't happy. No one's happy. We don't want them to be happy. Do you want to play good football?

37:15And I'm like, you've nailed it, Thomas, actually. This English madness and panic that we have about, oh my God, who are we going to play? Just needed a German bloke to come in and go, it's all right, lads, it's fine. Just win the game. You're not happy. Score the goals. It's okay. Don't worry about it. I mean, that is... I mean, that wasn't the narrative just like a week ago. It wasn't. About Bellingham. It wasn't. His attitude towards Bellingham. But the point is, Thomas Tuchel's right, isn't it? Jude Bellingham is a fierce competitor who wants to be England's number 10. Yeah, that's the answer.

37:42That's it. That's the answer to that question. I mean, there were slightly different tones that we were talking about before with the written media because he was sort of acknowledging the reporter's concerns about, you know, does this mean he's not really showing the collective first sort of attitude? Because of the way his arms were in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a minor thing. I mean, I understand the question being asked, but I don't think he's going to be making much of that. Like that's not, that's not the same sort of, it's not part of the same sort of conversation about someone almost sort of intimidating your fellow teammates with your sort of drive and passion.

38:18If you can, if you're like, I don't want to come off. Everyone, no one wants to come off. That's the right answer. There's very few happy substitutes when you walk into the, you're shaking their hand. There's very few that are happy. Yeah. You'll tell them, stop waving your arms. Please, Jude, like you're not making life easier for either of us. just don't do that I know you don't want to come off no one wants to come off please don't wave your arms around that's it, easy I think there's more to it than that I just think this Tuchel Bellium thing is going to run and run yeah, that's doudust but do you not I don't think that I think there are two types of manager I think and there's one who takes the big personalities and the players and says okay I take that you're a great player I realise you've got a big ego you're a bit of a pain in the arse but actually that's fine light touch Ancelotti style I can accept that it's worth it Southgate style Southgate if you like fine the kind of light touch managers Tuchel's not a light touch manager the other type of manager is the ones who are interventionists who want to be over everything you know they want to be the big name to be honest in the dressing room they want to be the one who's in charge of everything controlling every single little aspect the Tuchel Bellingham dynamic there I think is I think if Tuchel was a club manager I don't know how long that would last with Bellingham I think he would he would say he doesn't fit a collective system that I want to have and I think that's the tension we have here at the moment and the Rodgers-Bellingham kind of duel for this position I think is almost like it's perfect because Rodgers is a Tuchel player.

39:41You know, he presses, he runs, he's part of the team, he's not kind of all big name, big lights. You know, he'll do all the stuff that Tuchel wants him to do or you've got Bellingham who's a genius who can basically win you a tournament in a big match on his own. I think Tuchel will go for Rodgers. Really? See, the only thing I'd say, Tom, on that is I get the feeling that Tuchel's going or trying to get him to understand there's more in you. I want that to come out. You think it's like a fire in the belly thing? I think he's questioning him about certain things and say, I need to get more out of him because Jude is capable of more.

40:12And I think he senses that. And by the sort of undermining him slightly, he's hoping he'll react in the right way with performances because Jude is a talent. And I totally agree that, you know, there are certain aspects of Morgan Rodgers that a manager could like. but I'm looking at the guy and thinking I think Jude gets the nod I do I mean look again there's a long way to go between now and the end of the season but if you get a bit more out of Jude Bellingham because one thing he has got we've already seen he can score goals in big tournaments yeah team Bellingham Gregor I think so I mean you see look the pressure was on him and he came on made a really telling impact in the as a substitute in the first game and he tried to make things not everything came off like sometimes he was trying to run back and make up for mistakes and giving away a foul and whatnot but he's always trying something you saw it you saw his influence it's all about influence on the game how much you affect the game he always affects the game if you left him out it would be like so brave he is brave enough to do it I agree with Tom in that regard and he might start him and then if he doesn't show what he wants what he wants from from Bellingham he might take him out because he's got so many options that's possible but I think it'd be amazing if he didn't start him The international managers do have that.

41:30And again, going back to the old Ireland days, that Jack would see things that he didn't like. And going back to what Tom was saying, he just was like, I'm not going to play him because of that. He's not doing that one thing. But to the public and the fans watching the game and not seeing that, but he's looking at him thinking, he's not doing what I want him to do. But then the problem you have is a bellium won't be a good sub, really. If you look at the squad collective, you don't take a guy like that and then say, we're not playing. he's not going to be the one who's going to bring out the drinks bottles for everyone and give them out before the match, he's not going to be that kind of squad player so that's also a thing I'm not saying you don't take him at all but I think it's a difficult thing to judge because if you don't start him you're almost creating a bigger problem even than if you do I was going to say there's two things I was told to do and they're quite weird I was told by Big Jack when I was challenging for the ball against Jurgen Kola for headers when the ball was being played long.

42:26Yeah, yeah. He was saying to me, I don't want you to win it. I'm wondering, surely I've got to try and win it and flick it on. He went, no, I want you to challenge so when the ball, it just drops because I'm going to get a midfield runner, whether it's Roy Keane or whether it's Townsend, I'm going to get them to make a run into midfield. To win the drop ball. So he's telling me not to win the ball and flick it on, which I always, that was one of my biggest things. So I was thinking, as I'm jumping, I'm thinking, I can't win it and flick it. I've got to try and lean into the second half. That was one.

42:57And the second one was, when we lost the ball, I had to be a number 10. And he called me about twice, shouting at me, to get back in the 10 position. And I'd forgot one more. And he was like, straight away, Quinny, get warmed up. And he brought me off. Because I didn't get in the 10 position when we hadn't got the ball. The specifics of your role. Yeah, there were silly things that no one would have noticed. But again, with regards to Tuchel, that if he's seeing things that, I think, well, Morgan Rodgers is doing that better than what Jude is doing. And I need him to do that for the way my team works.

43:29There's silly things that coaches have in their mindset sometimes that we're only... We're just sat on the outside going, how can you not do it? But actually he's like, no, I've got specific reasons for this. I remember then, you know, you get a little bit confused and your actual role is like, well, a bit different now. Yeah. Well, only one of Jude Bellingham and Morgan Rogers had a loan spell at Lincoln City. So you'll know which one I'm picking for the spot. But listen, if you've got views on some of the conundrums facing Thomas Tuchel ahead of the World Cup. Get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk.

43:58Now, Greg, I was a little bit mean to you on the last Thursday's show. I made a joke about you not doing much work last week, but you did. You produced one wonderful feature earlier in the week. You know, I've just got to try and be nice to you every now and again. And it was headlined, My Day Watching Sunday League Team Packed With Former Top Flight Stars. Tell us a little bit more about it. Yeah, this is Withenshaw Vets. they kind of went a bit viral last month when there was a bit of footage emerged on social media it was Stephen Ireland and Papacici players with huge Premier League experience and a lot of goals and transfer fees and everything behind them, turning out for an over 35s team in the Cheshire Vets League Premier Division and yes I went to watch them last week and about 800 people turned up actually to watch them as well because news is spreading now and yeah looking at the picture now there was Cissé George Boyd who used to play for Hull and Burnley Miner Figueroa 180 caps for Honduras Wiggins

45:11Stephen Ireland Danny Drinkwater Premier League winner and then they had on the bench Jefferson Montero anyone remember? Danny drinks champagne after he's moved to Chelsea Danny drank a pint in the clubhouse afterwards as well it was really nice he spoke to Danny he was like you know you think this is funny and quirky and it is but he was like strip it all back and you know there's obviously different values in professional football but this is just as much fun he said I was going to say why are they doing it there's no pressure there's not some documentary going on behind the scenes no no so Stephen Ireland Stephen Ireland as the kind of the man behind it because ever since he retired, which I think is about a good seven or eight years ago now, he's been arranging these midweek games in Cheshire between Premier League footballers.

46:00Well, that's six a side type of thing. Yeah, five, seven a side. Well, it can be 11 a side if he can get enough troops together. But he's the man. He's like the WhatsApp admin. He like organizes the socials and stuff like that. He just can't seem to let it go. He wants to keep playing football. and he's he also he spoke quite quite deeply about how you know it's very hard when you lose when you lose the one thing that's been your identity and you're you know the thing you've done your whole life it's like this is like one little foot in that camp still about being able to you know still have a bit of banter with the lads and play football and get stay fit and you know it's good for your mental health yeah yeah so this so steven ireland is friends with a guy called Blake Norton who played for Withenshaw and last season they were a good vets team, they won 30 out of 32 games last season but they lost two cup finals and they were like, how are we going to win these cup finals?

46:54We need to be invincibles so yeah, he rang Stephen Ireland and he was like you need to get down here and he's like, okay, I'll see if I can round up a few because Blake Norton plays in the Tuesday club as well sometimes, so he knew a few of them, so he started off with Pap Sisi in Ireland Sisi just keeps scoring like 6 or 7 in every game he had the most incredible game the afternoon I was there he had a stinker in the first half he turned up just before kick off he was getting a lot of stick from the lads ammled up to the warm up they were like oh nice of you to join us there's a good vibe as well even though they're all these stars they get stick from the rest of the lads and first half he blazed one over the crossbar he had a penalty he missed the penalty and then he took the subsequent corner and he just he shanked it straight out into the side net and he didn't even make it like onto the pitch and everyone was like someone shouting Paps have you played before?

47:50and like you know second half he scored seven and some good goals as well he just needed to warm up exactly so so the big question is did they need a left back and are you no they've got a figure oh you should see the shape he's in oh I was going to say yeah honestly he's 42 he's got his legs are like tree trunks because he looks in better shape than ever. You're 42, aren't you? What's your excuse? 41, Tom. No, he looked in great shape. Ireland did as well. Ireland looks in great shape. Yeah, it could grow arms and legs. I mean, it already has a little bit. There's still, there's other players.

48:23How old's Stephen Ireland now? 39. 39. I was going to say, yeah. There's other players like Julian Lescott's played, Emil Heskey played in other weeks. Nedim Anuaha, Omar Nias, he's played forever. and there's about 10 of them signed up now and I think there's talk of them trying to get Rooney as well for a game and there's talk of them going to play Conor McGregor team in Ireland and stuff like that so it could grow our arms and legs but it was nice just being at a local game this is a Sunday League game over 35s football and actually also seeing the other you'd think maybe the opposition would be like oh the noses put a joint in a bit what's this all about but they loved it I was going to say that one of the big advantages of Sunday League football Or is it like you hope you're playing against a team who are turning out with nine men or like haven't got their goalkeeper or their star player?

49:10But I presume every single opposition who's playing against this lot bring out their best players and full squad. Yeah. We need to level the playing field a bit, don't we? We need to get a few other teams in the league ringing around some of the boys. I couldn't think of anything worse. I was going to say, did you not? You never fancied it? No. No. You never have to retire. I was delighted to hang my boots up. Honestly, I was delighted. But not even... So was some of the fans. Not even... No, you've got like six a side, five a side. It's funny, there is a divide in that. It's true. Like I watched it and I was like, I take my heart off to these guys, but I don't think I would want to either.

49:43I don't. Really? Yeah, I mean. So you weren't watching it and I'm not joking here, but you weren't watching it thinking I could play this. I could play. I could play here. Yeah, of course I could play. But you didn't want to? No. Like I watch professional games and the thing I love and miss is the competition. You can't replace that. This isn't really competitive. I mean there are competitive moments and it's like the guys both teams want to win but they won 13-0 like that's what I'm saying you need to go and join a rival team and get a few of the lads involved they're doing this for the fun professional football wasn't always fun it was like it was like it was worth it was about winning see I know if I played I'd be outstanding the problem is everybody else would be out running very good very good very good sorry that's an old run you've definitely had a few pints before this absolutely I couldn't think of anything worse, Tom, honestly.

50:35Really? I'd be now, I watch, I watch, and I'll have a drink. So from you retired, you never played any form of football ever again? Yeah, I did. Five a side, six a side? I got asked to play for Marseille against PSG, right, in a friendly. Right. There was 20 ,000 people there. Well, like a Legends game. Legends game. I'm playing up front with Jean, I'm going to name drop again, Jean-Pierre Papel. Oh, I love it. Me and Jean-Pierre up front. Yeah. He scores a hat-trick in the first half. How old were you at this point? I was 39. So like a couple of years after your time. 39, stroke nearly 40. He scores a hat-trick in the first half.

51:08And then we got one of our players who won the Champions League with Marseille but played for Paris Saint-Germain. So he said he was going to play for PSG in the second half. And Jean-Pierre Papin said, well, if he plays for them in the second half, I'm not going out. Good on him. See, he can be competitive. And I'm saying, Jean-Pierre, it's only a Vets game. And he went, if he's going to play for PSG, I'm not going out. And he got a hat-trick. So I said, well, if you don't go out, I might get an out-trick. And he went, I'm going out then. He scored seven in the game. Seven in the game. And he was like, honestly, and I knew a bit about Papin because players had told me at Marseille, said he was the type of striker that if Marseille lost 3-2 and he scored two, he'd be a big smile and he'd dress him and happy.

51:48But if we won 3-0 and he hadn't scored, he'd be literally moping in the corner. And he was the typical striker who is the most selfish, but he was an unbelievable goal scorer. but that was the only one I really played Tom and that was that's a pretty good vets game to play in Paris PSG Marseille with Jean-Pierre Papin that's a pretty good reason to get the boots on Tom if you were Sunday league teams who would you want Gregor or Tony in your team I don't like Tony's attitude to be honest too big time I'm more of a too cool Sunday league manager I know that Gregor would be there helping the nets he'd put his socks in the right way out he's a bit of a prima donna you know Tony's one of the The guy's like, chuck muddy socks in.

52:30He's trying to make a statement. He's nailing me. Leaving the big name out. The advantage with Tony is, though, that he can cut everyone's hair before the match stops. That's why I'd go Cascarino. Quick short back and sides for the lads. Tidy everyone up, and then he'd go out, and he'd score seven as well. I'd go Cascarino over Gregor every single day of the week. Listen, if you want to choose between Gregor or Tony, for your Sunday league team, we can petition to make it happen. Did you play non-league, Gregor? No. I played non-league before I played professional. Yeah. You were more of a grafter, worked your way up, didn't you?

53:00I could have. I hung my business up and came here instead. Thought I'd be a journalist for the Times instead of being a footballer in non-league. But yeah, as I say, get in touch with me, tom.clark at the times.co.uk. We'll see if we can make it happen. There's a special charity game, no guarantees, but we'll leave it there. Thank you very much for joining me, Tom Allnut, Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson. Thank you two for listening. Me and Gregor will be back with an EFL show in the week and we'll see you for the regular show on Thursday. Thank you.