Will Alexander Isak stay at Newcastle?

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1:55Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. On Monday's show we found out how clubs in the North, West and Midlands were getting on and we enjoyed it so much that we thought we'd head north to hear about Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds and Burnley on today's show. We'll also talk to our man at the Under-21 European Championships where Lee Carsley's England are into a second successive final after a 2-1 win against the Netherlands. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the former footballer and writer Gregor Robertson as usual and for the first half of the show we have the Times Northern sports correspondent Martin Hardy with us as well.

2:30Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Martin, hello. Hello, how are you? Are you okay? Yeah, good mate. I just realised I've got you and Gregor on this show which I've basically made myself a Southerner now. It's an absolute disgrace. You're a bit Southern anyway to be fair now, Tom. You've got dual nationality. Oh, here we go.

2:44Martin Hardy: He went home last weekend for his birthday and he came back sounding really salford.

2:49Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Yes, I've finally done so many bad Scottish accents over the season. I've finally baited Gregory into doing them. Now he's Southern again, so let's move on. One from the Manquan. Listen, I can do it if you want. Hello and welcome to the Game Podcast. But no, let's focus because we've got loads and loads to talk about. And Martin, that is the reason you're here. Let's start with Newcastle United. A big story from yourself this week about the future of Alexander Isaac. and Newcastle's plans, hopes, dreams to keep their star striker. Tell the listeners all about it. Yeah, Newcastle have one of the best young centre-forwards in the world, in Alexander-Izac, 25, 62 goals in England in three seasons.

3:29Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Three years left on a contract that is one of the better paid players at St James' Park, but certainly not the best. Interest that we know of from Arsenal, Liverpool, perhaps if they had the money, Barcelona. and I would suggest pretty much every football club in the world if he was to become available. Newcastle are at pains to point out that he's not available, but they do, which is our story. They are preparing to offer him the contract that will make him the best paid player in Newcastle United's history to fend off any interest from those clubs who are perhaps eyeing movement in July once clubs get even more money to spend than they are spending at the minute.

4:08Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: He's seen as the outlier in the fact that you can move him above the payment of the likes of Tonali and Bruno Goumeras because he is in a unique position that he's a centre-forward, a goal scorer, and they are just in such scarce supply these days that the other players will not necessarily start knocking down the door. Newcastle's problem in all of this is the limitations of PSR. So PSR-dominated Newcastle United centre-forward called Isaac could perhaps sign a contract between£150 ,000 and£200 ,000 a week. that remains still very light for the likes of Liverpool who pay more Salah in excess of£300 ,000 a week.

4:44Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: It is why there is a level of consternation. Liverpool are keen to say that we are not actively looking at a number nine. However, who in their right mind would not be interested if there is any encouragement whatsoever from either Isaac or the Newcastle United about a potential move. This is Newcastle's plan to try and fend off all talk. They're in a good position at the minute. It's three years left. However, 12 months in football disappears very, very quickly. And if we're having the same conversation in two years and he hasn't signed a new deal, his value then starts to decrease rapidly. So they are keen to have that conversation to fend off what they see as growing interest in this 25-year-old centre forward.

5:24Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Part of our story, which I think is very important, is that Alexander is that wants to play for a competitive, I am told competitive, Champions League team. Newcastle hope that being a Champions League team will be enough for the time being. and the player thus far has not intimated that he's unhappy. But the talks in the summer when he comes back will be very important to see where he's at and whether there is any unrest from himself ultimately in terms of seeking to move clubs. Absolutely fascinating, Martin. Just to clarify on some of the figures, and I know it's incredibly difficult for you guys to get exact figures because clubs are always vague and things, but just to give the listeners a sense there.

5:59Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: So it's the likes of Tonali, Bruno Guimaraes, Anthony Gordon that are currently the best paid players on around what exactly? Around you won£40 ,000, won£50 ,000 a week. Alexander Izzak, who signed his contract three years ago when he moved from La Liga, is on a bit less. And this is seen as one deal that would catapult him above them and there would not be a queue of other Newcastle players knocking on the door saying, I think I want the same money because I'm as good as him. The argument is, I think Alexander Izzak signs that deal because nobody else can play like Alexander Izzak. Gamera and Tonoli, two very, very good players, could perhaps be seen as more replaceable, whereas Izzak has that element of, we can't find another Alexander Izzak anywhere in the world, which is why his value is currently so high and why we talk about him quite a lot.

6:51Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: But at the same time, he has one Champions League goal in his career. Those two players you would probably group him with, Erlen Haaland and Kylian Mbappe, have, I think, 48 and 63 respectively. You can see why that phrase, I want to play for a competitive Champions League team, becomes so important. The new structure of the Champions League may help. Aston Villa went deep in it last season, a team without any recent European experience. You create that frenzy at home games and before you know it, you're heading into the latter stages. Everything now rests with Alexander Izzak. Very interesting.

7:26Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Gregor, what do you make of Martin's points there? The key one to establish, isn't it, is the agreement that he is one of the hottest properties in Europe, in world football. And as Martin says, because there are not that many out-and-out superstar strikers out there.

7:40Martin Hardy: Yeah, he is. I mean, he's the most exciting to watch in the Premier League. Actually, I mean, part of that has to do with the team he plays in. You know, Erling Haaland is a force of nature, but he always seems to be kind of neutered a bit playing for Manchester City. Isak seems to fit into Newcastle's system and really kind of in-your-face, dynamic style of play brilliantly. And he leads the line. He can do that and he can also create a goal out of nothing. That's priceless. If somebody's a finisher, you can get on the end of things, be it from Anthony Gordon or Harvey Barnes or anyone. But he can also just create a moment of magic.

8:16Martin Hardy: Remember the goal against Arsenal. Was that in the cup? I can't remember. He makes a run, such a blisteringly quick kind of moment that the defender's completely gone. and absolutely lashes it into the roof of the net. It's just so like, bam. And like, there are not many players who can do that. So yeah, I'd be interested actually, Martin, to see where you rank him in the sort of pantheon of strikers you've seen at San Jose Park. I mean, there are obvious ones, but like,

8:44Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: where would you put him? Where would you think he is? For listeners who can't see this video call, that's how difficult. Martin has just thrown his laptop across the room and flick the V's at Gregor and said, why have you asked me that question? Right, where do we start? Andy Cole, Les Vernon, Alan Shearer. The more recent one, Denver Bar did very well. Oh, come on, he's better than Denver Bar. He's better than Denver Bar. I am just making the list of players, first of all, that you're comparing them with.

9:14Martin Hardy: They're all a long time ago too, so it's also very difficult to make those comparisons. But they are huge figures in Newcastle's history.

9:21Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: No, no, no, exactly. I'm just quickly racking my brain to make sure I haven't forgotten any of Newcastle's big centre forwards. In terms of everything that he has, you'd probably say it could be the most exciting of all of them. And this is where you'll get lost in the mind. You should have asked me a question about Newcastle United because Newcastle United probably got Alan Shearer, prime Alan Shearer for one season before he suffered the really bad injury. So the Blackburn forward that scored 30-odd goals every season for three years running in the Premier League to break the record, was that St James' part probably not meant to be harsh for one season and then Shearer suffered a terrible injury that would have finished many people in broken ankle, broken fibula, I think it was.

10:01Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Kim comes back, still scores stacks of goals but he's a different player and when he retires, admitted I had to change my game, I'd lost a bit of pace. You then throw prime Les Ferdinand with Gillespie one side general to the other. He's all about power. You've got Andy Cole in a newly promoted team in 1993-94 with Peter Bezzi who is on fire in his electric, but perhaps does not have the all-round game of Alexander-Izac. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses. Izac's weakness is probably that he has the physique more of a middle-distance runner, and he has to face the likes of Gabriel and Saliba trying to batter the hell out of him.

10:36Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: So you have a physical weakness that Newcastle have really, really done well on to get him playing more or less every week. He misses the game at Anfield when Newcastle lose 2-0 18 days before the League Cup final. It shows what they miss, but it's also because he has a problem with these coins. So there is a physicality that Newcastle have really looked after well with Alexander Izzak to get him to play so many games. But in terms of excitement, that dribble on the byline against Everton where he beat about five players and still didn't get the assist, I think it was a Jacob Murphy score, he can score goals from 30 yards.

11:08Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: The goal against Liverpool in the Premier League in the 3-3 draw is just an absolute wonder strike. Close range, can take players on. There is a hell of a lot to his game. I'm not going to decide who Newcastle United's greatest number nine is. And by the way, he isn't a number nine yet. He's a number 14. But certainly in terms of excitement, right, right up there, you always read all the fans will march on St. James' part if they sell a player. They don't. They will be annoyed for a bit and then they'll say, right, who are you going to replace them with? That's how we all know football works. But certainly the manager, Eddie Howe, does not want to sell them.

11:42Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: The board are showing no signs of selling them. Piff don't want to sell them. and yeah, the supporters would definitely not want to lose Alexander Azak at the minute. Such an exciting player, but he has been developed a great deal by Eddie Howe. Of all these things, I always go back to conversation with the likes of Rob Lee, who I really enjoyed playing and was a brilliant player, 20 caps for England. And he will talk about that period at Newcastle when it was Kevin Keegan and it was finishing third, sixth, second, second and four successive seasons. and he said the one thing is you loved going into work, you loved your job, you loved playing football.

12:17Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: That sometimes gets underestimated when you're talking about a footballer's career and happiness. He's happy with the players, he's happy with the squad. It would be a big gamble to leave, but at the same time you may double your money, you may win 10 more trophies, your agent may be keen on that move too. So there are varying factors to be taken into account, but he does seem happy as it stands. That slightly chimes with me, Martin, and I was listening to you talk before about that kind of goal, you know, 25 you're outlining now, as you said, been developed a lot into this superstar forward. There's part of me, slight echoes of the whole Cristiano Ronaldo at Manchester United thing of like, oh, you know, one more season, you'll get your move eventually.

12:54Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Like, I don't see a world in which Alexander Izak is suddenly a crap at football at any point. So there's part of me that's like, go on, Alex, just, you know, at least one more season. Go in the Champions League, the new format of the Champions League, take this Newcastle team forward and then see where you're at. Well, then, kind of several points to jump on there. One is, if Newcastle Sunday go right, we've got a new right side, a centre forward, we've got a new forward. The modern game, I think, that we're watching with PSG and Barcelona, who were the two teams that I enjoyed probably watching most last season, was you have a front four or five who can press, who can dribble, who can score, who can assist.

13:30Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: You have really powerful four or five players who don't necessarily play the full 90 minutes, but the game is moving towards that element of everything is on the front foot. I've seen it in a couple of other sports as well. So therefore, if you go to Isaac, right, here's Joe Pedro, here's Alanga. We've already got Tonali, Joe Linton, Gameras, Anthony Gordon. This is going to be a very fun for a team that won't offsuit you and can, as you say, maybe gets its top four finish and has a good run in the Champions League. The one thing in all of this is you realise it's our job. you do something on Manchester United or you do something on Liverpool, they are two clubs on a different stratosphere to a Northeastern club and Newcastle fans will get annoyed by that.

14:14Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: But the size of these clubs is absolutely phenomenal. In football, there is always generally a bigger club than you, apart from perhaps Real Madrid. So to go back to Cristiano Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo is at Manchester United, arguably the third biggest club in the world. And they have to say, can we have one more season, please? Because there is a bigger club going to sign you for£82 million. and as you said he did and perhaps that is one of the solutions for Newcastle give us 12 more months Alex see what we're going to do you get on so with the players you've developed as a player you'll still only be 26 it's just that if he does sign a new deal with no clause he's therefore tied to the club for longer so that might be one of the discussions that takes place this summer in terms of can we protect Isaac in the short term but can you give him an option of leaving in 12 months time Martin in terms of the rest of the squad then obviously we're talking this is kind of the biggest news so far about Newcastle that's come out this summer and it's about retaining one of their star players you know Gregor myself and Martin and Johnny Northcroft I think had a conversation which I discussed with you during last season about how good this Newcastle starting XI was you know you have written at length on the Times website about a need for depth and things they had an amazing season last season finally won that trophy qualified for the Champions League How does the rest of the summer look then?

15:30Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Is it about this kind of a deal? Say, keeping players like Isaac, Tonali, Anthony Gordon, keeping them, keeping them hungry? Or is it about refreshing the squad? Or can they do both? Because for the Isaacs of this world, they'll be looking around and going, well, who are you bringing in, guys? Who are you making? How are you making us better? Yeah, that goes back to Alanga or possibly Jao Pedro is an improvement on what your castle have and it makes the attacking options greater. at the same time they are limited by PSR and people don't like hearing it we will come to the statistics of transfers I suspect in the course of this conversation which is doing my head in that fans are obsessed with spending hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds it doesn't always correlate that that will give you a successful season Liverpool and Newcastle spent next to nothing last season and Liverpool walked the league and Newcastle won the Carabao Cup so that idea that you always have to spend at the same time Newcastle did which we have reported in the Times sold Lloyd Kelly and Miguel Almiron in January.

16:30Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: And privately, it was very much, we may have been faced with another June PSR crisis if we hadn't done it and we'd be selling. One of the phrases I've heard mentioned is headroom and that they don't necessarily spend every penny that they have this summer. But at the same time, the head coach wants to give new life, a new injection and a deeper squad. They will have Lewis Hall coming back. They will have Sven Botman fit, Joe Linton fit, three huge players who didn't play for the last couple of months of the season or Bottman did a little bit. But you've just got to be careful without spending too much because this time last year, Newcastle were in a really, really difficult position and desperately trying to offload players.

17:06Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Those in charge of the club will say, look, all the A-list has stayed. So all you need is a couple more to take this club at the next level and obviously keep your fingers crossed a little bit with regards to injuries. But those players we mentioned before, Tonali, Gameres, Joe Linton, Gordon, for now Isaac Bottman, Livermanto who's been linked very heavily with Manchester City following an excellent number of 21 championships these are top top notch players that Newcastle have signed developed and now certainly for the immediate effect have kept inside the football club.

17:40Martin Hardy: Yes our point is an interesting one though because we've spoken about this before where yes with how difficult it is for a Newcastle or a Villa to break into the kind of elite banding of clubs generate the same sort of revenues that the biggest clubs do, which enables them to spend more on the pitch. But the kind of other side of the sword there, a lot of those teams are also quite hamstrung by profit and sustainability regulations, and they've not been able to spend the kind of money that ISAC would go for on their kind of rivals' best players. That's kind of not happened as frequently because of profit and sustainability regulations.

18:15Martin Hardy: So, you know, the figures that we're talking about for ISAC, there really aren't many clubs who would be able to do this. Liverpool have obviously taken their spend to£200 million already. How many teams do you think can actually realistically put together a package that would be able to get Isak?

18:31Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: I think all top clubs would find a way to enter those discussions and to find out what Newcastle, this is very hypothetical, to find out what Newcastle were asking and to find out what Isak was asking. And by that I mean Arsenal, Liverpool, nobody's mentioned Manchester City I guess because they are fine with Haaland, they don't need to do that and then you're looking abroad probably Real Madrid don't necessarily need him because they have him back by Barcelona can they sell another television station within the football club to fund another brilliant player probably probably if they really wanted to so I would say but you're talking a salary doubling is not something to be brushed away in one sentence that's a lot of money the likes of Newcastle are absolutely stuck in terms of competing at that level a turnover I think the last I looked was 320 million less than half of what Manchester City turnover it's very very difficult for a team that's in the North East to expand its revenue streams to get anywhere near that which is why there is the continued talk of moving ground or doing X or doing Y to try and increase that there is a slight worry on my part about throwing away or losing the soul of a club but you understand it because at the minute they can't compete at the level they want to because of the constraints of PSL, which people find boring, but they are there.

19:50Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Very interesting. Martin Hardy will keep you up to date with all the latest news around Alexander Isaac's future and whether or not he signs that new contract with Newcastle. Martin, let's talk about some of the other clubs in the North East. Let's start with Sunderland, of course, Newcastle's local rivals. Obviously a fascinating and fantastic achievement and season that they had last season. But I would say not the most exciting start to the summer for Sunderland and indeed the other promoted clubs. Jude Bellingham leaving the club and going to Dortmund. That was trailed quite well by you and lots of other journalists in the North East as something that was likely to happen.

20:29Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: But how should Sunderland fans be looking at the summer so far? Do we think there's some moves on the horizon? The noise you can hear is my high horse that I'm about to climb on, OK? I'm going to ask you two very quickly. We don't like dead air. Okay, tell me the four top spenders in the transfer window last summer. Ipswich. Was second. Chelsea. Nope. Net spend, sorry. Highest net spend. Net spend. Man United. Yep, third. Southampton. Nope. Southampton weren't far away. For the sake of not having dead air, the highest spenders last summer were Brighton with£150 million, who finished eighth. The second was Ipswich with a net spend of£123 million, and they finished 19th.

21:10Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: The third was Manchester United with a net spend of$111 million and they finished 15th. And the fourth was West Ham with a net spend of$100 million and they finished 14th. All right? It's fine, Sunderland fans. You stick with what you've got. I'm just going to gallop on my high horse. Thank you for that, Tom. This is making it very easy because Ipswich spent$123 million for their 22 points. Southampton spent$108 million, but the net was 68 for their 12 points and Leicester spent 82 million or 52 million for their 25 points. All three teams, really poor. Leicester maybe has had a good first 10 games.

21:47Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Ipswich showed a little bit of interest. But worse, that bottom three part of the Premier League season was done months before the end of the season. So that brings us to every football fan in this country going bananas about why the club hasn't spent money. It's like, calm down. Liverpool won the title, they didn't spend any money. Newcastle won the Carabao Cup. They didn't spend money. Spending huge pots of cash does not guarantee you anything. Which brings us to Sunderland, okay? Until I think they bought Enzo Le Fay, the record signing under Dreyfus, the owner's regime, was Milan Alexic, which was a 19-year-old Serbian defender, I think, for 3.1 million.

22:28Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Their model, again, I think, of the first of 25 players bought under Dreyfus the first 25, only one was over the age of 25. Okay. There is a realisation, I think, inside the club, right, we can't do that now because we're in the Premier League, but do not expect them to go bananas and do an Ipswich and spend£125 million. I don't think it would go against everything they've done so far, which is a slower progress about building the club with young players. What I would say is I think they will adjust that model so you're talking the players they're now linked with Armand Lorient who's a 26 year old the Dynamo Keeve Ford Vanat is 23 they are looking at older players but I don't think you're going to and Le Fay himself was interested in that it's a commitment to a deal that could reach 20 million pounds so there is an acceptance of a change but I don't think the likes I think if you went through Ipswich's sign and seven of them came from the championship last season.

23:32Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: I don't see someone doing that. I think they will use the countries that they've been successful with and they know the likes of France and Switzerland and Belgium for signings. And really important perhaps is that the sporting director from AS Roma, Florent Gisolfi, pronunciation could be wrong, has joined and is expected to work on recruitment with Smeekman. And that may mean that they dip into Italian football a little bit more. But I think my point is, don't go bananas and spend all your lottery winning one month because the next thing, what was that Rangers fan who ended up being the bin man, driving all the cars going, you see?

24:09Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: That's where you are sending your football club.

24:12Martin Hardy: I mean, you could look at it another way and that actually you could spend all that money and still you've got no chance in the Premier League these days when you step up from the Championship.

24:21Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: That's my point. You make a very powerful argument, Martin, there. Lovely statistics to back it up. We love that. I'd also like listeners to be reminded that I got two of the teams right and Gregor Robertson got none of them. But anyway, let's just leave that there. I do Ipswich.

24:33Martin Hardy: Ipswich were the 13th highest spenders in Europe. Don't bring your facts now, mate. Don't bring your facts now.

24:38Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Nobody's asking that. Don't bring your facts now. No one cares. You missed your chance. But Martin, as much as you're quite rightly pointing me out for being the reactionary editor that I am, I'm also a cynical editor. And I would then say, well, are they just going, well, the last two seasons, particularly last season, have proven that even if you do spend all that money, as you've just highlighted as Greg has just said oh well you've still got an absolutely massive mountain to climb so why don't we go in with the same philosophy the same roughly the same squad add a few and have a crack as the complete underdogs is that what is that what's potentially going to happen not just for Sunderland but this applies to Leeds and Burnley as well

25:15Martin Hardy: Leeds will never think they're underdogs

25:16Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: you need to go to Alan Rohn use the word underdog and run for your life I'll do it send me in I'll do it I'll put my man's accent on as well are you Tom especially now are you man are you I'll put my manc accent on alright lads how's it going being underdogs see how I get on I don't I think Leeds perhaps are further down the line than Sonnen and that they are still a club that had parachute payments coming in Sonnen was the unexpected probably the most unexpected team to get promoted and there may be surprise inside the club to do that no I I think that when I said about realignment I think they'll want to do their best to do So, yeah, there is an argument to say, right, stick the money in the bank, we'll have that next season, the championship.

25:59Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: But I don't get the impression anybody is doing that whatsoever. I think there is still ambition in some, and it's just, it's different, and it's aligned to a different model now. And they can say, look, this model is working. On top of everything else, we've just sold Tommy Watson for 10 million. We've sold Bellingham, who cost 1.5 million two years ago for 30 million. So they are trying to make the club sustainable without necessarily, which it will, all a million, the Premier League, relying just on television money. what I think you will look at now is they will remain to be want to be cute in the market you may see loan signings but the fact that they are looking at older players and more experienced players now and as I said Le Fay shows that if there is a good deal and Le Brice was a football head of football director at a football club in France for many many years which means he's come across a lot of players in a different guise to a manager and has great relationships so whether he becomes significant again in the market, we will see.

26:55Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: But they won't want to go down. It's just they will not want hemorrhage money like perhaps some other clubs coming up do. And the definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect different results. And if clubs are spending fortunes and getting relegated, then you think, right, we have to be more clever here.

27:11Martin Hardy: Burnley, actually, Burnley's last promotion just kind of came to mind there when we're talking about Sunderland having this model for youth. And several players from the Belgian League, the Dutch league and often my kind of gut instinct is really you have to be so flawless and make no errors now in recruitment and then like also your approach because Burnley went up and tried to play a certain you know a kind of expansive style of football and they got absolutely whacked so you know you get the impression that Sunderland under Libre is kind of he's more pragmatic he kind of they've changed actually as the season developed so that That kind of augurs well, I think, for the future.

27:53Martin Hardy: But I don't think it matters. I don't think if you say, right, we need to go out and sign loads of experience, great. If you say, no, we're going to stick to the kind of model that served us well so far, sign young players who've got a lot of potential and try and develop them, we'll just lift the level a little bit because we're in the Premier League now, great. If you do a hybrid model, great. I still think the likelihood is you're going down. I hope I'm wrong. so what they have to be above all else whatever kind of route they take and path they choose they need to be flawless

28:22Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Yeah no I completely agree and you're looking through the Ipswich the players Ipswich sign and we forget the lap came in for 17 and a half million and you make money from him there may be one or two other players they've signed that they get money back from and you go okay well it wasn't just an outlay however the idea as you said the likelihood is if you're putting some money now you'd probably say yeah there's a chance Sunday will go down and if the The bet is£5 a statement,£5 a go down, you'd probably lean towards going down. At the same time, we don't know their squad. We don't know what they're going to look like.

28:52Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: We don't know what other teams are going to look like. Therefore, why do I spend£125 million and gamble everything on one shot? It goes against everything they've done so far. And what they've done so far has worked. And bear in mind, that was a club that had£900 million worth of Premier League money, swilled through it and ended up in League One through lack of a strategy or a plan and funny you mentioned Burnley and I like Vinnie Cumney I like Craig Bellamy that's the Wales manager and the Bayern Munich manager now that could be said that their coaching style at Burnley benefited them it didn't particularly benefit Burnley it helped their careers and as you said I think the Brist is more pragmatic and isn't frightened to sit deep not necessarily play this kind of style of football that the fans were demanding on the front foot so that gives them a chance as well and the ground will be intimidating for 10 to 12 games and at that point you have to get points on the board and their start of the season isn't that bad.

29:50Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: So do you think it is a different story for Burnley and Leeds then Martin? I think it's a different story for Leeds just that Leeds are a club that will expect to go higher all conversations with Daniel Fark in the last kind of three or four months was very much this club has been a Premier League team like once in 20 years and he's like we have to beat top 10 we are top 10 so the words coming out are different his ambition is different I think the owners want to go high quicker and will feel you know they're talking about making the stadium into 53 ,000 pretty quickly as well I think their revenue streams they will see they can boost them and compete and the signings they're looking at I think you're going to look at players coming in for 20-25 million pounds but who knows which one will work Burnley if they lose James Trafford to Nick Castle which has a good chance of happening have already signed is it the German under 20 goalkeeper so we'll see if you're one of those three clubs I guess who can we catch who can we catch Man Utd and Tottenham aren't going to be at the bottom next season West Ham you wouldn't have thought so what are you looking at are you looking at Brentford change of manager and Buemo going losing some all-star players I'm not quite sure Wolves Wolves yeah had an incredible bounce under the manager but will they be weaker next season so we'll see but I guess you've got to look for two clubs that you can catch of the three teams how many still So history has shown us at the minute that the last six went down.

31:15Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: So if one does it, that's like a major achievement now. A message of patience from Martin Hardy. Martin, thank you very much for joining us on this part one of the game podcast. Just before we take a quick break, if you are a big rugby fan and are getting excited about the Lions this summer, make sure you check out our sister podcast, The Ruck. They have exclusive interviews with Lions legends and all the best build up to the action in Australia. just search The Rook wherever you get your podcasts but as I say it's time for a quick break we'll be back in the second half of the show to talk about England's under-21s but it's time for the quiz question Gregor Robertson didn't know his facts about transfers see if he can get this one instead who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played as a midfielder with more than 300 appearances for Leeds United and also played for Newcastle and Blackburn Rovers and won 42 caps for England find out after the break Martin stop being so badly behaved you've left, you've done if you didn't hear martin hardy find out after the break or i'll just repeat it in the second half of the show we'll see you then

32:24Martin Hardy: therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough it shows up in the smallest moments you bite your tongue instead of escalating you put your phone down instead of firing off that text you say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

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33:42Martin Hardy: This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies, and making sure every order goes out on time. And Grainger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools he counts on granger to keep products moving and trucks rolling so his operation runs smoothly no matter the shift call 1-800-GRANGER click granger.com or just stop by granger for the ones

34:09Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: who get it done

34:20Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: welcome back to the game football podcast from the times i'm tom clark and i've got gregor Robertson with me as usual we did have Martin Hardy with us in the first half of the show he's now going to be banned for the rest of the pre-season after being badly behaved and shouting out the answer to the quiz question Grego which was David Batty David Batty but proof there that

34:41Martin Hardy: you uh you don't listen when you're on holiday because I asked the very same question and the

34:46Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: answer was David Batty not long ago but also proof that you don't listen to me when you're on holiday because you did David Bentley, which I did while you were on holiday a few weeks ago. So there you go.

34:55Martin Hardy: You should have really got that Google dot going. We should have got the Google dot going.

34:59Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: To be fair, not too much duplication, just that Mark Hughes clangour back in the day. Now, before we move on to a discussion around England's men's under-21s at their European Championships, we've got an exciting announcement about our coverage of the women's Euros. From next week, we'll be launching a dedicated show focused on the tournament, and we will be joined by former England international Izzy Christensen. Izzy played for Birmingham, Manchester City, Lyon and Everton and won 31 caps for England between 2015 and 2019. And she will be with us for the duration of Euro 2025, offering her expert insight as England try to defend their title.

35:36Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Izzy will be with us early next week to preview the tournament and you can read her column on the Times website very soon. England, of course, hoping to win a second successive Women's European Championships. and another national team looking for back-to-back glory are the men's under-21s. Lee Carsley side into the final where they will face Germany on Saturday and Hamza Kalik-Lunat has been in Slovakia covering the tournament for the Times and joins us now. Hamza, hello. Hi guys, you alright? Yeah, good, thank you. How are you? Yeah, pretty good.

36:05Martin Hardy: It is baking hot and I think I mention it because this is going to be a theme not just for this tournament but the World Cup next year and it's really hard to convey how hot it is and how much of an effect that has. I mean, you can write in the newspaper, it is hot, and you put the temperature there, and people go, oh, yeah, cool, whatever, no one cares. You could be on the microphone talking to your studio and all the listeners back home, all the viewers, and say, yeah, it's baking hot. You could be dripping in sweat, and no one really cares. But it has a very real effect on the matches, and you can see that with England's matches and at the Club World Cup.

36:37Martin Hardy: So, yeah, this is going to be something that we're going to have to keep an eye on, not just here, but also in the World Cup next year as well. because it's impossible to press, essentially, which really changes the dynamic of matches. But so far, really cool tournament. But yeah, I just wanted to get that, like, emphasise that straight away. I'll get my little violins out for you now.

36:58Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: No, but listen, he makes a good point, Gregor. It is a big, big, increasing talking point within football and these tournament tournaments. Are the players talking about it, Hamza? Is Lee Carsley talking about it in his press conferences and things?

37:08Martin Hardy: Well, yeah. So after the Slovenia match, the second group stage match, which was played at 6pm local time but 5pm UK time. It was actually 29 degrees, so it's just below the 30 degree threshold where UEFA mandate water breaks. And after that, Harvey Elliott said it was ridiculous, it was the worst heat I've ever played in. Lee Carlsley has mentioned that there's protocols, essentially the cooling down stuff. You might have seen in the match yesterday, there were cold towels during the water break. Elliot Anderson had someone behind him with a water spray and he was rotating literally so the spray would go around his head they have all their gel packs and everything and where possible in any sort of break during the match they'll run over and top up.

37:56Martin Hardy: At the same time you also have some players that insist no it's fine, we don't worry about it but I think they are just trying to be dismissive of the fact that it does affect the game and you can see physically as in you take the match yesterday against the Netherlands, also the one against Slovenia. By the time the sun had begun to set and the shadows had lengthened and the temperature had cooled, in both games you could see the teams pressing more and there was more intensity and speed to the matches. But yeah, trying to go man-to-man in the heat, which is the trend among most teams, right, to press man-to-man and put the opponents in the pressure, is very difficult.

38:35Martin Hardy: But yeah, a few players have referenced it, some have tried to play it down, but given that the staff the managers from both the England team and the opponents that they face have all referenced it obviously they don't want to to blame it right because it never looks too good but I think it's important to communicate it in the first place but yeah it is something that all the um the the teams whether it be medical staff or managers and yeah they're paying attention

38:57Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: to well we hope the heat won't be too much of a factor in Saturday's final but Hamza it's been an interesting tournament for this England side obviously seemingly peaking at the right time but but it wasn't always straightforward in the earlier matches. Just give us a quick summary of how things have been going for any listeners who've been maybe following in a less slightly intense manner than we have sometimes for these big tournaments.

39:19Martin Hardy: Sure, yeah. So like England won their first match against Czech Republic. They drew with Slovenia and then they lost to Germany. And Germany had actually fielded a completely rotated XI. The reason for that is because these tournaments, there's a really short turnaround between matches. So it's quite intense, right? usually in senior football you have three days between matches that means you get your match day plus one the off day and then your match day minus one but in this tournament apart from the build-up to the semi-final England have had two days between matches which meant that you have to rotate and that's why Germany did it in that game the context here though is that prior to the tournament there are a few players that would have expected to start well seven actually that are unavailable.

40:05Martin Hardy: So Jamie Gittins and Rico Lewis were at the Club World Cup and the FA were well aware of their participation in the Club World Cup. So they began planning in advance how the team would sort of look without them. And that actually included James McAtee as well. However, McAtee had a conversation with Pep Guardiola and after that said, I'd actually like to play for England under 21s at the Euros rather than go to the Club World Cup. So that was a surprise, Philip. However, you had Jared Brantthwaite, the defender, injured towards the end of the season. Taylor Harwood-Bellis, the captain, injured towards the end of the season.

40:40Martin Hardy: Adam Wharton, who picked up that concussion injury, injured in the FA Cup final. So these three guys, all starters, were then out. And then you had, just in the lead-up to the tournament, well, the training camp and then the tournament beginning, Liam Dillap, their first choice striker, and Joe Bellingham, the big, strong, physical midfielder. both getting moved to Club World Cup clubs and subsequently not being available. So essentially there were seven players that could have, well, usually are starters, that aren't in the team. So in the week leading up to the tournament, Lee Carsley, the under-21 manager, set about rejigging his tactics.

41:19Martin Hardy: So from the normal system that they play, they move to a 4-2-2-2 with two false nines. the idea being to rotate out wide, bring players like Harvey Elliott on the right side in and use those opportunities to combine with other technical players and then break inside. But Karsley hadn't worked with the team since, well, between September and January because he had the senior team, of course. So he warned it was going to be a little bit clunky. But him, other senior officials at the FA, other players all sort of maintained the longer we get into the tournament, the better we'll get. And yeah, sure, anyone can say that.

41:56Martin Hardy: But you can actually see the improvement, especially against Spain and then against the Netherlands, where the team actually plays like they did in the League of Cardsley before. They're very fluent. They're coherent. They're impressive. So yeah, that has been the context of the tournament and how they started in the group stage. And then they had that big match against Spain. And for 25 minutes, it was some of the best football I've seen this year. they were utterly phenomenal they blew Spain off the park in that period and in the first half they're excellent and in the second half they sort of sat back counter-attacked and scored the third goal but yeah, it's been a really rounded knockout stage performance after a disappointing group stage Hamza, obviously Harvey Elliott's been the star but for me from watching some of the games there's been some really positive things in midfield as well Elliott Anderson, Alex Scott, Tyler Morton as well how much do you think that all goes well for the future and what do you think the likelihood is of some of them making a step up to the seniors?

42:55Martin Hardy: Yeah, so I think you're completely right to pick out Elliot Anderson, Hackney and Scott I've been impressed with all three after the group stage if I was going to pick out one or two players it would have been Anderson and Liveramento so Liveramento is one of the only players in the squad with a senior cap and he was told by Thomas Tuchel to get some experience in a tournament because he's always missed them essentially because of injuries and try and be a leader. And I think he showed that in the first few matches in the group stages. He's combined really well with Harvey Elliott, given the overlap.

43:24Martin Hardy: And I think he's also an option for left back as well. So that bodes really well. Elliott Anderson, I've been really, really pleased with when I've watched him. We all know he's very physical. He's strong. He's got on the ball. He's very dynamic. At Newcastle, obviously, when he came to the academy, they envisioned him as a sort of, when he came through, sorry, they envisioned him as a box-to-box number eight. At Nottingham Forest, the way that they play is slightly different. So he does play deeper, but he's still trying to be a very direct player. However, when he plays deeper for England than the 21s, he's like the metronomic player at the base of midfield.

44:01Martin Hardy: He does the combative battling stuff. He wins the second balls. He's really impressive. But take a look at that Slovenia match, if you guys have the time, the listeners have the time, and you'll see him threading loads of forward passes. He sat down as the number six and he was picking out passes of five that were excellent. It's an element to his game that I personally hadn't seen. His ability to control matches from deep midfield, I knew he was very good at picking out passes, but I didn't know he had the ability to let the game slow and set tempo and then accelerate. So yeah, that has been a real revelation.

44:34Martin Hardy: It's a bit strong, but I've been really impressed with him. Alex Scott, outstanding as well. I mean, when he arrived at Bournemouth from Bristol City, there was a lot of hype around him a couple of years ago. Injuries since then meant that he hasn't really kicked on. But in this tournament, despite having that chin strap, which he's had to wear because of that elbow from Tyrone Mings towards the end of the season that fractured his jaw, he's been really impressive. Again, combining those attacking elements with really good spatial awareness and coverage, good pressing, very good tackling. and then like you said Tyler Morton a player who was actually when we spoke to him before the tournament started he was quite downbeat about the season he spent the first part out on loan and it didn't quite work out and had some difficulties with that and said that at Liverpool even though he's got the Premier League winner's medal he's now a winner there he was disappointed just because he hadn't played enough he did some work with Sipka Hulsov Johnny Heitinger to develop his game but found it quite frustrating and had a little support group with him and Gerald Kwanza and Harvey Elliott, guys who weren't getting as many minutes as they would have liked.

45:38Martin Hardy: And then in that Spain match, he was outstanding. I said that he was like a Spanish player. And then Lee Carsley, when I said that, he sort of bristled. He said, no, no, no, that's sort of a thing of the past now. We should think of these as our own players. But the way that he sort of linked up in midfield was outstanding in that game. It was really impressive. He missed a semi-final due to a suspension, but he'll be back in contention for the final. So all three players, you're absolutely spot on to pick them out. I've been impressed with all of them. And like I said, Liveramento has been outstanding as well.

46:09Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Hamzi, you're quite right to pick out and give some hype to that midfield trio. And you've mentioned Liveramento and obviously Harvey Elliott, who are more established names. But you obviously gave that list at the start of players that a lot of listeners will have heard of and been familiar with who are missing. What players that are maybe kind of a little bit more unsung that have maybe stepped up and filled in those gaps that you've been impressed by?

46:31Martin Hardy: Yes, so obviously there's the centre-back pairing, right? Jarrell Kwanza and Charlie Cresswell have come in for Taylor Harwood-Bellis and Gerard Brantthwaite. Both started the tournament OK, but since then they have come into their own. Charlie Cresswell is what you'd call a more sort of conventional, old-school defender. Lots of physicality, very comfortable at heading the ball away, clearing. He gets into tackles. sometimes if you take a look at the Portugal match when he's put under pressure he will go long a bit too often but there have been tweaks made to sort of deal with that so take a look at the Spain match and the Portugal match so in the Spain match the Spanish were pressing onto James Beedle and what they did differently was move from a double pivot of Alex Scott and Tyler Morton to a single pivot they moved Scott further upfield that meant they couldn't apply pressure onto the goalkeeper nor Cresswell and gave Morton a bit more space.

47:28Martin Hardy: So that tweak worked well for him. And then you take a look at the Portugal match and in the second half, England moved their fullbacks deeper. So when Spain pressed man-to-man, again, there was more space in field for Scott and Anderson to combine and then control the game. And that also gave Cresswell a bit more space to manoeuvre and didn't necessitate in kicking long as much. So he's been very good. Kwanzaa's improved a lot as well he's obviously had that move to Bayer Leverkusen which will be completed at the end of the tournament rumbling on in the background which can be a distraction but he's largely dealt with it well, he's stepped up I've been impressed with the way that they've improved through the tournament they didn't have the best of starts but since then, and they are asked to play quite an attacking way so they'll often be near half way on the ball a lot, dealing with opponents pressing them man to man, covering a lot of space, so yeah James Beadle towards the end of the match against Portugal made a number of big stops and claims in particular Jack Hinchwood has started to come into his own as well James McAtee hasn't quite had the impact he would have liked but it's been quite difficult for him because he's been playing as one as a centre forwards in the double false nine system and that dynamic is quite difficult because you need one person to run in behind and they don't have a natural number nine that usually does that because when that happens you as the other false nine can drop in so when they tried Jonathan Rowe down the middle who's a winger by trade that didn't quite work they used Stansfield there but he's also not a conventional number nine he likes to play off the striker at Birmingham City so he's found it a bit difficult Stansfield did very well against Spain and not as influential against Portugal when Eri has had good appearances off the bench in the Slovenia match when he started it's a bit difficult because like I said the pitch was close

49:18Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: closing in on the false squad here Hamza

49:21Martin Hardy: it's some squad I mean even the names you obviously mentioned at the start that were pulled out there's still a squad full of Amari Hutchinson who was like he was decent last season and with Ipswich I would definitely pick up Hutchinson yeah as in he's a constant runner he's really strong obviously he likes playing he was playing on the right a bit during the season and he's been on the left in recent matches really direct always runs you often hear Lee Carsey shouting go on take him on you've got your one on one like skin him all that sort of stuff. Sorry Greg I cut across to you. Archie Gray is on the bench, he's featuring towards the end in games it's a great squad.

50:00Martin Hardy: Last thing for me anyway, we've kind of managed to avoid Carsley, to win the Euros here, what a kind of you know, his character was almost kind of torn apart and like analysed in minute detail in the period he was caretaker charge of the senior team. This would be huge for him as well There was a really quite funny quote below the line in your report Hamza, sorry comment below the line in your report and said why is the first one, why is Carlsley not managing the first team and Sunday immediately replied because he tried to play eight number tens at the same time and got wasted I wondered what you would make of that First of all yeah so if he is able to lead this group that would match the achievements of Dave Sexton, the former Chelsea manager and England under 21 manager who won consecutive under 21 titles in 82 and 84 so that would be a real achievement of course he signed an extension to his contract before the tournament began which takes him through to 2027 which is the end of the next cycle that will also mean that he will have been with the FA for more than a decade and he's regarded very very highly the way that people at the FA who have watched his sessions and see how they've improved have been really impressed they like his attention to detail he's very hands-on so every match and every training session he's out there putting out the cones in the Spain and Portugal match he was actually getting involved as well so as in drills he was the guy playing the pass into the players so they could have their shots he was the guy doing the sort of being the dummy defender as the players were trying to work around him you don't usually see that from first team managers and he's supported by Ashley Cole as well who again senior officials at the FA have been very impressed with his rate of development with Lee Carley has been even better according to them so yeah as in if he wins it obviously there's a match against Germany who are very very good ahead and his reputation would be burnished and with Thomas Tuchel's contract only going up to the end of the World Cup, I guess he would be in the conversation as well.

52:17Martin Hardy: I guess another big advantage is that in 2028 for the Euros, he will have worked with a lot of these players. The current group, the previous group before that, he's worked with Saka. He's also had three camps with the current squad. So yeah, this should be a real achievement. And he has hinted that maybe further down the line he would like a look at senior football. He's very content with where he is at the moment. That's why he signed his contract, obviously. But yeah, he's really well regarded at the FA. I think doing this job while not having the team for half of last year and dealing with these seven senior players and also Dane Scarlett as well, who I didn't mention, who isn't available, is a real benefit.

53:03Martin Hardy: But yeah, I guess one other thing that could be said is that has he learnt his lessons from that Greece match? Well, it could be argued no, because he's still got a team full of midfielders. He hasn't played with a nine. He didn't play with a nine. He put Stansfield in, but Stansfield again isn't a conventional nine. Some of that is circumstance, right? But if listeners remember what I said after the Greece match, I mean, I thought it was worth it. I think you can probably, you don't always need a nine. and in fact you should probably think as Carsey says, not in terms of positions, about roles, which players complement each other, take a look at the right side for example, right, when you have Harvey Elliott as your right winger you can't really have a fullback that tucks inside because that means you haven't got an overlapping run, it's not very quick, it's not very it's not a punchy right side but if you put Tino Livramento there suddenly when you've got the overlapping run Harvey Elliott can come inside, he can combine that's way more effective, likewise when you put Stansfield with McAtee or Jonathan Rowe on the left, or when it comes to thinking about the senior side, think about your right side rotation.

54:10Martin Hardy: Which right side is going to be more punchy or effective than Bukaya Saka, Jude Bellingham and Trent Alexander-Arnold, for example, right? You've got real pace, athleticism, creativity there, loads of stuff.

54:21Hamzah Khalique-Loonat: Tough test against Germany on Saturday, but you've got us excited for it. Hamza Khalid Lunat, thank you very much. Gregor Robertson, thank you very much as well. Martin Hardy as well, thank you for joining us at the start and thank you too for listening remember next week we begin our coverage of the women's european championships with former england star izzy christiansen you do not want to miss it we'll see you then

54:49Martin Hardy: this is the story of the one as a shipping manager he's running the dock stocking supplies and making sure every order goes out on time and granger helps him stay prepared From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Grainger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.