Will Amorim be Manchester United manager at Christmas?

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1:10Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Three big games this weekend and all of them finishing 3-0. What are the chances? On today's show, we'll discuss big victories for Arsenal, Tottenham and Manchester City and a draw for Chelsea as all four sides prepare for Champions League action this week. Liverpool and Newcastle are also playing in Europe and they picked up wins too. And we'll also talk about Bournemouth's win as they introduce us to a new defensive star. I'm Tom Clarke and today I'm joined by the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson and joining us down the line from Manchester is the football reporter Paul Hurst.

1:49Hurst, hello. Hello, good morning. Welcome to the new studio where you're beamed in at us. Alison's first time in the new studio. Looks like you're on a different planet. Yes, we're in a very, very green planet in the studio. Alison in the new studio for the first time, excited, enthused? Yes, like being on Mars. Like being in a different world altogether, but it's very exciting. and Hirstie, thank you very much for joining us because we're going to start in Manchester. After more box office stuff from Ruben Amorim, it's very, very tempting to start not on the football in any way, shape or form.

2:18But let's start on the match and talk about what was a good City performance, Paul. Would you say 3-0 was the correct result? I would say so, yeah. I think that obviously City were the better team. I don't think it was a horrendous Manchester United performance and I have been to a few of these fixtures over the years where you turn up and you think, my God, we could be in 5-6-7 territory for Man City when Man City have been at their best. But this is a City team that only got three points from their first three matches, so they weren't exactly brimming with confidence, had a lot of injuries, but they still found it relatively easy to turn United over.

3:00I thought Haaland was exceptional yesterday, and Phil Forden, obviously, as well. Donald Rummer had a huge part to play as well he played very well, very authoritative on his debut I thought United played reasonably well first 10-15 minutes of each half, particularly the first half they looked pretty solid but then they just keep making mistakes that lead to goals and they couldn't finish their own chances so they only had themselves to blame really they've just got so much more quality Man City up front than United have and you look at the amount of chances that United have created this season and they haven't put them away.

3:39I was reading that they created more chances in the first three matches than any other team but they've still only won one of those games. Again, we come back to this question about Ruben Amrim. Is he suitable for that job? Does he have the actual drive himself to do it? Because every time he appears in front of the cameras he looks like he just wishes he was further away. He just wants to get away from United and go back to how things were before he started this really disastrous reign. Yeah, we'll definitely come on to Ruben Amarin, but I'm just very, very keen to make sure we do cover some of the City points.

4:20Because as you say, Paul, Erling Haaland, absolutely terrific. I saw some stats over the weekend. He's now got more Premier League goals than Didier Drogba, more Manchester Derby goal involvements than Wayne Rooney, more Premier League hat-tricks than Robin Van Persie and more goals in a single season than Alan Shearer. He's not doing too bad, given that we've got, what is it, another 7, 10, 9 million years of him, Gregor. But just on the game, Gregor, would you agree with what Hurstie said? Did you think 3-0 is about fair, United okay in parts, just before we get into the bigger issue type points?

4:49I think it could be more, quite easily. Alan's missed that absolutely jaw-dropping sitter where he kind of somehow managed to post. Rinders cleaned through as well United became more and more stretched In the second half I think it could have been more quite easily Arsenal's right, United were pretty Solid and orderly In the opening stages But so little adventure So little commitment to Getting players forward And any kind of Real combinations I thought You just keep coming back to the system and Amorim keeps kind of being he seems sort of like getting really annoyed about the fact that he's being asked about every single week but it does seem like it's not working so he's banging his head against the same brick wall so I think the other thing that kind of jumped at me is that there's players that have gone off the boil a bit or just dropped below their standards for City Rodri's returning to fitness still Guardiola had a drop off last season same with Diaz Silva I think they've all kind of in this game certainly you just saw that their players are like stature ready to perform on this big stage and Phil Foden I thought I could tell he'd been listening to all those stupid football podcasts during the international break saying he's not good enough for the England team who was that Gregor?

6:15that wasn't us was it? definitely not but he looked excellent didn't he Hurstie? I mean he loves this fixture doesn't he obviously as a Manchester lad and a City fan but he looked really really on it He's such a big player, Foden. You get a lot of players who shy away from the big games, but he just revels in them. Remember him scoring in those tight run-ins with Liverpool, remember him scoring at Anfield and scoring in the biggest games for City, the Derbies particularly as well. Like you say, being a local lad, he's got that extra motivation to beat United. I thought that was his best performance in a long time yesterday.

6:52I just love the fight that he got in him. I noticed after he'd scored the goal and he went and celebrated in the corner that after the restart, Bruno Fernandes was giving him some lip. And Foden was just shouting stuff back at him. And I'd love to have known what was said between those two. But he just doesn't shy away from a battle, Foden. He's really tenacious. When he's in that kind of mood, he's one of the best players that England have got, the best players in the Premier League. So it was really nice to see him at his best again. And he was completely different towards the end of last season.

7:35I remember talking to him after the FA Cup final, and he looked really down in the dumps, said he'd had an ankle injury. In fact, they picked up against Man United, the Casemiro injured him in April, and he'd been struggling with that towards the end of last season. And then we got to the Club World Cup in America and we spoke to him then. And it was just like that difference between night and day. He was so confident, really cocky, really sure of himself again. And you could see that in his game yesterday, little tricks, little, you know, trying things that he just wouldn't do towards the end of last season.

8:06So he's heading back towards his very best form again. Yeah, I think Bruno Fernandes was going, the game podcast, Phil, they don't rate you. They don't rate you. They've not even got you in the England team. Send Morgan Rodgers, it's better than you, mate. that might have been what it was i feel like a little bit like a politician trying to keep everyone away from the big topic that everyone wants to talk about by talking about the actual football weird so stupid so let's talk about reuben amarin he is box office for a journalist and for any editor i know my colleague joe hair was editing yesterday and he's just going he just comes in and delivers the quotes yet again a headline on the times website now reuben amarin you'll have to change the manager if you want a new system.

8:45It's quite remarkable, isn't it, Alison? I mean, you've all been in many, many press conferences over the years. Alison, been in thousands probably. Yes. This is, for a Manchester United manager under pressure to come out and say this after a Derby defeat in September, we are at an absolutely bonkers stage, aren't we? Yeah, but he's succumbing to the sunk cost fallacy, which is what people do when they put money into a scheme that isn't working. And they think, well, I've already put£5 ,000 in. If I take it out and put it somewhere else, I've wasted£5 ,000. So I'm going to follow up that£5 ,000 with another£5 ,000.

9:25And that doesn't work. And you just cannot extricate yourself from it because you feel you've already committed. It's too far along the line for him to say, it's impossible now for him to say I was wrong or I might have been right in my head, but it's not right in practice and I'm going to change. He's gone too far down the path. So I'm not, I was, I mean, the weird thing is I wasn't surprised he said it because it's very, he's very consistent. But I wrote in my column on Sunday, one of the biggest mysteries of football is why a club like Manchester United decided it was clever to appoint someone who was so wedded to one way of playing.

10:05And that was it. that was the thing about him. There weren't other things. There really weren't. Well, he did it very well. He did it very well. Amicable and having some success in Portugal. Yeah. His thing, and I get very cross when people call it a philosophy and when he calls it philosophy, it's not a philosophy to have one system. That's really weird. That's just a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny part of football. Philosophies go much deeper and bigger than that. But I wrote, the biggest mystery in football is why you would appoint somebody on this basis. It's like owning a bakery, having a pastry chef who says, I am only going to bake pan au chocolat, but you have a kitchen that never stocks chocolate.

10:48So Manchester United are a croissant. Absolutely. Ding, I need this bell for Alison Rudd analogy. That is top, top notch. We're only in September. That's already the analogy of the season. Go on, Gregor. I totally agree with that. It's like you think of something like Russell Martin last season. at Southampton and that that was that was a philosophy whether you know how foolish or doomed it was it was like it was a commitment to a certain way of playing football this is not a way of playing football there's no evidence of a way that Manchester United under Ruben Armour are supposed to be playing football all there is is a shape and it's a shape that's flawed is there any sense you know Paul was saying and I agreed with him you watch them sometimes in these games for the first 10 minutes of both halves and I'm not saying this is a defense of him but it does kind of talk to some of the things he said about oh you know the players need this rigidly drilled into them where for the 10 minutes after he's spoken to them just before he's spoken to them they deliver exactly what he wants them to do and then the game kind of pans out and you get to 20 minutes and it all gets a little bit messy is that because I mean Hurst you may pick up here because you were in the ground but and you made the point initially is that what it is you know you hear about you and Charlotte talking about being on tour and watching him walk the players through training sessions with cones and mannequins and stuff, is it that he almost needs to be on the pitch with them going, now you go, quick, now now, now, what is it?

12:10Yeah, he's very present on the touchline and he's not got to the stage where Mourinho was shouting to Luke Shaw, instructing him for every kick, do you remember that when he got to that level, but he's so stubborn he is so stubborn and I remember when I was doing a background on him last November when it became clear that United were going to appoint Amirim, spent a week or so in Portugal and talking to everyone there at Sporting Lisbon talking to agents who've got players at the club and one of the agents said as part of the piece I wrote he said his main attribute is his stubbornness, his self-belief but it is also his biggest downfall and that has become so clear here you look at the it's not i don't think it's just the system either i think the system there are patches this this season where they've looked quite good they played quite well against arsenal first half against fuller milked all right and they in the end you know they've they had loads of shots sitting against burnley that ended up winning in the end the the main point i the biggest concern i would have if i was a man united fan was will be that these players have being coached by him for nearly a year now.

13:27He's had a full pre-season to deal with them. And this season, he's not got any midweek games, not until, oh sorry, he's not got any non-Premier League games until January, because they got not entirely cut by, Carabao cut by Grimsby. So he has got the maximum time that he could get with these players, but they don't get it and they're still making silly mistakes as well. You look at all those three goals yesterday, They're completely avoidable, all three of them. I don't think any of that came down to the system. It just came down to a lack of skill or composure or concentration. And that doesn't reflect well on the players.

14:09It doesn't show that they're of high enough quality. But surely, as a manager, it's your role to make these players better. and if you've got five, six training sessions with him a week, they should be pretty well drilled. Even if you're coming up against Erling Haaland, he should have a fair idea of what he's good at. He shouldn't give away the ball on the halfway line for him to leave 50 yards of green grass for him to run onto. So I just think it's, as time goes on with Amram, there are fewer and fewer excuses for him. I just think his stubbornness at the start was admirable, you know, on my way or the highway, you know, get another man if this isn't working.

14:56But it just clearly isn't working, is it? So I just think if he would be able to change a little, then maybe that would help her, you know, give her a change in direction. Even look at Ange Postacoglio last season. You know, he was the most kind of like wedded to his philosophy manager you've ever seen. but in that Europa League final against Man United admittedly one of the most terrible games I've ever witnessed live but as soon as Spurs went 1-0 up they didn't look like they were going to concede they didn't go helpful ever for two or three or four goals he changed his philosophy as they say and just kind of like held on to the lead but how many more do that it's just and to me it just seems it's just the weirdest it's just the strangest hill to die on it is yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:46He's frustrating seeing it because he can... And he is going to die on it. But are you suggesting there that there is potential that if they change system, they would be better? Because that's your point. And Alison's saying he can't change now, he's gone too far down the line. Are we all saying that if... Just, you know, chill out, Ruben. Go on, do 4-2-3-1 for a laugh. Just one game. Let's see. They'd suddenly be great. Is there a machine? Is there a machine where you can put in the players... Here we go. Another analogy. No, it's not an analogy. is there a machine where you can put in the players and then convert it to a better formation, say 4-2-3-1 it's called Football Manager I think and then what happens then?

16:30do they start winning? that's what I'm asking you lot I'm asking the former footballer this is the infuriating thing about Manchester United you go round we've gone round in circles for years now they still have a squad that's well below their opposition at the weekend. Yes, you know, Hurstey was saying it's the job of the manager to improve the players. It's also his job to give them a platform to be able to do the things they do well. And this system does not do that. Like, I don't... It's so specialised. Again, we've said this so many times, like, the need for such high-level wing-backs is, like, it's extraordinary.

17:09And they don't have them. They don't have them. Yeah, you're right. Also for pretty specialised midfielders I don't think they have them either Also you need very athletic Defenders I think they've got One of them maybe And maybe heaven if he's fit But De Ligt's not that At least he's been okay De Ligt would rather play in a back four No one could dispute that Luke Shaw can do a job there But I don't know if you're going to hang your hat on him either Just now And they need to send another goalkeeper again so like there are so many we go around in circles all the time so many issues but you come back to you know you could probably sweep a few of them under the carpet if you were just a little bit more pragmatic and willing to sort of look at your players and think how am I going to get the best out of this team, this squad Gregory he'll know better than me on this but the wing back situation for me is, I know again we've talked about this a lot so apologies for for repeating here but again when i went to watch him uh went to watch amurib sporting he had four four wing backs right who he rotated and they're all pretty quick but i remember watching as soon as they lost possession they the full backs would would run back sorry the wing backs if they were in attack which they not often were would run back and sort of become part of a five right five man defense so they retreat but they wouldn't like leg it back you know a professional term they They wouldn't spring back.

18:40They'd sort of like saunter back. And they just, just because they know. But I remember sitting there thinking, and this is a Portuguese cup match, I think I was watching at the time. I can't remember even who they were playing. But I remember thinking, that will not work in the Premier League. You can't have full back with your wing backs going suddenly from attack, attack, attack to, you know, just jogging back, you know, like really kind of slowly. It just won't work. You'll get hit on the counter so quickly. the pace of the Premier League is so much quicker so that for me was an alarm bell already and the other one that I think two big errors he's made this season is taking Bruno Fernandes the best player in the post-Ferguson era admittedly a low bar but still a pretty good player and moving him out of his best position and playing him deeper and to the point where like yesterday, Phil Foden sort of just like walked around the back of him and headed the goal in.

19:40You know, when he was supposed to be clearing the ball in the, Fernandes' role was supposed to be clearing the ball in the box. So he's done that, he's taken the best player out of his best position. Maybe the only world-class player that United have got on his day, but he's not moaning at referees for getting his path while he's taking a penalty. And the other one is the goalkeeping situation. I could have understood getting rid of O 'Nada if they had brought in Martinez and Lamont. But now you're in a situation where, Bay India, God bless him, he's just not good enough, is he? He's not. You know, at the start of the season, at the start of the summer, right, United offered, I can't remember the exact numbers, but they were supposed to have offered, from IA, they'd offered a Bay India to, they gave like an agent a licence to, the mandate to offer Bayern around Turkey and this is a point where Fenerbahce are looking for a goalkeeper and other Turkish teams you thought would have been interested in a Turkey international which he is but they didn't sign him and then at the end of the summer you end up losing Onana who despite his faults is better than by India, and he goes to Trabzonspor, who are willing to offer him more money, etc.

21:09So now you're left with a keeper who's worse than your number one, and a 23-year-old Belgian kid who may be brilliant in two or three years' time, but they don't need results in two or three years' time. They need them now. As soon as Haaland went through yesterday, I might as well have started writing third goal's gone in. He was always going to score, wasn't he? A, because Haaland's brilliant, one-on-ones. But B, Bayern Deer is just not good enough for... He wouldn't keep that shot out, would he? Second goal, he went to ground too easy as well. I mean, when you've not got a goalkeeper who radiates confidence to the back four, back three, whatever, he just sets a really bad...

21:56It's a really bad starting point for your team. and you can tell that they've not got confidence in him. He's just not good enough, is he, Bayern Deer? I mean, Lamens is, you know, he's, you know, United fans will be desperate for him to come in. But, you know, if he comes in against Chelsea and Cole Palmer fancies it, he might score four or five next week. And then Lamens' confidence is back down to zero. But that's an interesting point, Paul. Because is Bayern Deer just full stop a below-par keeper? is he getting worse because of the situation at United? Because I agree with you, that's one of the poorest goalkeeping displays I've seen.

22:37Like when you play tennis, you don't hang around in the middle of the court, you make a decision to go to the net or you're at the back and he's in the wrong place all the time. Yeah, and if I was playing against Man United, if I was one of these set-piece coaches or whatever, or just a coach for planning for a game against United, you just put crosses in every five minutes because you just can't decide when to come for crosses and I don't think he's progressed at all I think he's played 15 games for United now I think he's only won two Premier League games one of them was the 3-2 against Burnley and the other one was the 2-0 win over Aston Villa on the last game of last season when I met Le United really good but Villa pretty much you know they just didn't turn up did they yeah so I don't think he's improved at all I think he's regressed so which is why when you offered him when they offered him around to he was bothered yeah so it's that Manchester United vortex again Paul I've got to say we're always thinking about what clips we could put out on social media by and dear God bless him might just be the only one I think that's you could just do five seconds of that I think we all feel sorry for him in some respects.

23:54I thought this was going to be a really pointed question just to wrap up the Manchester United section, but I think it's the most obvious answer in the world. I was going to give Ruben Ammer until Christmas, but I'm tempted to ask you whether he'll be in a job come the next international break. Guys in the studio, just a snap answer, will Manchester United have a new manager at Christmas? And then Hurstie will let you have a little bit more detail. Alison? They'd be mad if they didn't have a new manager. Mad. But I wouldn't put it past them for the sunk cost fallacy issue to just keep going I think they'll keep going for five years I think Reuben Amarman will still be in charge at Christmas Gregor?

24:25No Hurstie? He can't carry on like this can he? There's that Mick McCarthy quote isn't he I'm going to be worse than Mick Mick can It can But like you know just from talking to people this morning at United and it was the same after Grimsby that they they're still with him they're still they're still backing him they always say it's long term projects so they as Olison says they're in for a penny in for a pound now they're really backing him the thing is if they sack him it's a black mark against Ineos isn't it it's the first black mark against them in terms of their managerial appointments they could always they always obviously argue that Ten Hag wasn't their guy and they gave him enough opportunities to prove prove them wrong and obviously ended up sacking him in the end but he's their guy they've invested so much literally in a new strike force for him this summer so they're backing him but in my mind if this carries on if they keep getting one win out of four they're not going to be they're going to be in 15th again aren't they and you can't have that for two seasons in a row so if it comes to that if it comes to Christmas and they're still in this position I just don't see any reason for for keeping him on they're 17th out of all the ever present teams in the Premier League since he got the job he has the worst record in the Premier League since he's been a Premier League manager he's not got long There we go Manchester United fans if you've got views on Ruben Amarin's future do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk Let's talk about the Champions League it's back this week with a raft of absolutely cracking fixtures I've got to say as a sports editor I'm looking at this list going yeah come on let's have a bit of this Hurstie you're going to Man City against Napoli which again sorry Manchester United fans allows us to talk about more cock-ups by Manchester United because as I quote an Italian journalist who Hurstie spotted on Twitter saying God bless Manchester United no club in the world has been better than them at ruining the talent of footballers in the last 10 or 12 years today he's talking about Napoli we saw a great Rasmus Hoyland last year McTominay led Naples to the Scudetto we can't stop thanking them and that is because Rasmus Hoyland is up and running for Napoli isn't he Hurstie scoring in a 3-1 win at the weekend.

26:46A smile on his face. You've got to either cry or laugh. It's one or the other, isn't it? But, Hirstie, back to City. Oh, actually, you can go with Napoli if you like, whatever you want. But this will be a really interesting game because we've also got the return of Kevin De Bruyne, haven't we? Yeah, and it'll be an emotional night for him. It was... You know, the send-off for De Bruyne was really, really emotional for C fans, really emotional for him. He wanted to stay for another season and he is he's very kind of again another stubborn guy who he'll really want to to prove that he's still got it i think towards the end i think it was the right decision to let him go i think he was you know he's putting in amazing performances one in every five or six when he used to do that every every game previously before his injuries but i'm really interested to see how it goes mctominy as you said is you know wouldn't seri our player of the year last year didn't he and he's firing all cylinders as well and then he got Rasmus Hoyland you know finding the back of the net yeah who would have thought it at the weekend so yeah there's a lot of subplots there and but the other the other point here is that City got quite a they've not got an easy run they've got some quite difficult fixtures so in the Monaco away is the next one um so I they don't want to end up in the situation where they were last year where they were scraping through they needed a win in the last match against Club Bruce to get through.

28:13They want to be in that top part of the table when it comes to the second round. They don't want another play-off, don't want another game in February, early March. So that'll be weighing quite heavily on their minds as well. They can't start off slowly in this competition. Yeah, really tricky. As you say, some big games this week. Athletic Bilbao against Arsenal and Tottenham against Villarreal. That's on Tuesday night. then Bayern Munich against Chelsea and Liverpool, Atletico Madrid on Wednesday, and then City, Napoli, and Newcastle, Barcelona on Thursday. Newcastle and Liverpool both getting 1-0 wins this weekend.

28:50Gregor, do you reckon? It's a good weekend. Sorry, a good week of football. Yeah, it's good, isn't it? I told you, you lot weren't on board with me when I was getting excited two minutes ago, but it's an absolute cracker. I mean, Gregor, do we think Liverpool may be the luckiest start to a Premier League season in the history of football, maybe? Do we think, yeah? It's up there, yeah. It's definitely up there. Alison, how are you doing? No, it's actually lovely. Yeah, yeah, sign of champions. It's been a lovely experience for it to go deep into a match and have no qualms that they're going to get.

29:14Oh, yeah, you're back now with the drama. This is what you wanted last season when Arnestlott was winning every game 2-0 by 60 minutes. You're back. You're happy now. But obviously, all these English teams in the Champions League, so just a little bit of fun before the tournament gets going. If you had to pick an English team who could win it, not I'm saying they will win it, if you picked an English team to win it, who would we go for? And I'm going to pick Tottenham and Thomas Frank before Alison Rudd does. they're going to long throw and corner kick their way to glory, we'll talk about them more in the second half of the show, Gregor if an English team had to win it?

29:44Arsenal Why? Their defence and now coupled with a ridiculous number of attacking options, I was at the game at the weekend and you just look at who's on the bench, who's missing and they've got the depth to compete on all fronts which is really important when you're going deep into the competition but also just that bedrock of their defence I think those two things can give them a chance Hurstie? It's got to be Liverpool for me I think you can't add that much depth to your squad and not be considered proper challenges for they came well top of the group last year didn't they and they should have really gone further so if you're adding players like top quality like Hurst and Izac to your squad then and Ekotike as well then And they've got to be, I would say, they've got to be considered favourites for the whole thing.

30:36Alison? Well, Hurstie's spot on there, isn't he? A very wise young man is Paul Hurstie. Yes, but I've mentioned Thomas Franken now. Hurstie's mentioned Liverpool, so you've got to pick a different team. I don't actually have to do anything. But no, my point about Liverpool, compared to Arsenal, they have the history and the know-how of how to win in Europe. I've just put that out. The defence? I think the reason Liverpool have splashed a lot of cash is because they saw how tired they were in those two legs against PSG and the blooming ladder system means nothing. We all know that now. It doesn't mean you'll get an easy game when it's the knockout phase.

31:11So you have to be ready. Your team has to be stacked with talent so you can rotate properly. And I do feel that's a big focus for Liverpool. And I think a team like Liverpool who has spent the money has the focus and the indignation of what happened last season. I think Hurst's right. Hurst Hurst is right they are favourites Hurst is right get the t-shirts in now that's the second follow up t-shirt from the game podcast Hurst is right on the back on the back in quotes by and ear God bless him Hurst thank you very much for joining us for the first half of the show it's been great to have you with us from Manchester we're going to take a little break and we're going to test Alison and Gregor's knowledge and see whether they can get any of the stats right from Bill Edgar's quiz which Gregor's normally read before we come on the show so it's technically cheating but and ask the question, who this weekend became the first team in top flight history to follow six wins in a row, which they achieved from March to April, with only one point from the next eight games?

32:10Find out after the break.

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33:34Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson. Still with me, Paul Hurst has gone off to write a piece about Manchester United. God knows what he's going to say. But just before the break, I asked the quiz question. who this weekend became the first team in top flight history to follow six wins in a row with only one point from the next eight games. Gregor Robertson. Wolves. Wolves. Not going to mention them on this show, but it's not a great start for them. It's looking a little bit worrying, but I'm sure we'll talk about them on a show in the future.

34:05Another side with a defeat at the weekend. Leeds United. Gregor conceding the most, one of the most ridiculous late home goals. I was editing on Saturday and speaking to Hamza Kaliklunat, who was there for us, and he messaged me at one point saying, Tom this game is so boring and then like any good journalist he came up with a theme and the theme was going to be Leeds' defence good on him got a point away from home promising signs for the promoted signs and then along comes Goodmanson with ever seen a more bonkers own goal Gregor? More bonkers? Yeah Have you? Chris Brass Oh yeah true I mean he wins that competition hands down But this was pretty good for the distance away from the goal and like the nature of how it hit him and everything Yeah Yeah Yeah, I have sympathy for him.

34:48Of course, we all do. You don't see it coming at all. I remember doing, it wasn't an own goal, but I remember once having the same thing, but the ball came through so late that I tried to manipulate myself to clear it and I essentially passed the ball straight to someone in the box and they scored. So I was like, there's nothing you can do about it. Try and move your face, whatever. Did you score many own goals? I don't think I scored an own goal. Never scored an own goal? That was the closest I could get to, Tom. What? show off I bet his defensive teammates would say he's never anywhere near the box anyone get in touch with me who played with or against Gregor Robertson Tom Duck Clark only the great defenders score exactly the ones hiding out on the touchline I'm a left back I don't get anywhere near the goal anyway speaking of promoted sides with good defensive points at the weekend a big point for Sunderland at Crystal Palace game listener Kenny getting in touch to say Tom I love football and why wouldn't you you're a Sunderland fan seventh with seven points absolutely brilliant start to the season from them.

35:48Bournemouth also having a brilliant start to the season. I really enjoyed James Gearbrand's report in the Sunday Times at the weekend. I'll just read you the quick intro because I'm sure for some casual fans, for some neutral fans, this might have passed them by. James said, having signed a 20-year-old centre-back whom they lost to Paris Saint-Germain and a 19-year-old centre-back who was picked off by Real Madrid, Bournemouth responded in the only way they can by signing an 18-year-old centre-back who, making his debut in this feisty South Coast clash against Brighton, gave such a commanding performance, he was named man of the match.

36:18If the task of pronouncing Vlejko Milošalvevč, absolutely nowhere near what his name is, but I gave it a go, was a stiff test for the commentators and stadium tannoy man, the Serbian teenager had no such issues, announcing himself. It's a brilliant piece by James, all about a new player who I'm sure will be joining Chelsea in about 12 months' time. You know how they do that, don't you? They say to these 18-, 19 - and 20-year-olds, we will give you Premier League football. We're not going to Cosset you And train you And maybe give you An EFL Cup game Now and again You join us Because they'll have If they're that good They will have other suitors They say to them We will give you Straight away You'll come into the Premier League And that's how they get them And that's how they develop them And that's how they get All the way up I feel like there's quite a lot To discover about Both those two teams as well Still Sunderland I think they only had Two players from Last season starting Yeah yeah yeah A lot still to learn About Sunderland And all the signings They've made And it's true of Bournemouth they're kind of powers of regeneration extraordinary yeah well Bournemouth and Sunderland fans if you've been at all the games do get in touch with me teach us something or something got a question for the guys that I can mention on the next show but we're going to talk about some of the games that we were at the ones that you can give real in-depth analysis for Gregor you were there at the big game at lunchtime on Saturday Arsenal 3 Nottingham Forest 0 this was billed as the Ange Postacoglu game he's back and Arsenal just slightly swept them aside and by the end of it you and Johnny Northcroft were talking about Zubamendi and Madueke instead but so on Forest first because I think you'd rather talk about Arsenal but just on Forest first just meh a bit meh yeah there was no there was no signs of Arsenal no fireworks no I thought not the first 10 minutes I thought oh they are pressing a bit higher yeah Murillo tried a pass out from the back that was intercepted and Andrew's clapping I noticed that but they didn't do much of that they there was a bit more pressing but actually the thing that's slightly been forgotten and in the whole conversation about Forrest is that Nuno in the first three games of the season was changing the way they played.

38:18I was at the first game against Brentford and I'd never seen them play that way. They were absolutely smothered them in their own defensive third. So yeah, it's a sign to that. The most interesting part was the last question that Ange had answered in the press conference, which was basically, you know, people were saying, how long until we see Ange ball essentially? And he was like, Wednesday. They're playing Swansea in the Cup on Wednesday. He's like, it's not going to take long. It's not a project. can't afford to this club's been on an upward trajectory can't afford to like stall that we've got two days training we've got a game which we can use as kind of to embed principles that's gold for us so according to Ange we'll see it very soon How do you feel about that Alison in relation to some of the points you were making about Ruben Amaroum about the idea of you know a formation and a philosophy you're saying it needs to be bigger than that does that sound like pragmatist Ange or does that sound like philosophy Ange?

39:10I don't know what that sounds like We've got another... A lot of exhaling on this podcast today. I did notice... I mean, I'm amazed you said you saw him applauding on the touchline. I mean, OK, I only had the TV pictures, but he was arms folded or doing nothing again. He's a very passive manager. That really winds you up. You like a bit of action on the touchline, don't you? Yeah, I do. Well, I don't know really why you earn your money. I mean, he's not been there long. Something he could do more of, if you just joined a new club, is to show your faith in the players and be looking at your iPad and looking at tactics and tweaking things and getting messages to the players.

39:53He's just an incredibly passive touchline manager, in my opinion. If it's not going the way he wants it to go, the big picture isn't there for him. He sort of relaxes into it rather than takes a more active stance during the 90 minutes. To be fair, the way he spoke about the game afterwards was like these players have all been away into national duty they come back and their world has changed it's been turned upside down we had one day to train I didn't I purposefully did not make make any changes to the starting line up apart from the enforced one because of Ola Iona's injury hamstrings are already going and he wasn't you so actually that's fair enough you know when you're thinking oh what did we learn from this game creaky it would have been extraordinary if we learned much after one training session so it is interesting that he's bold enough to say, you can judge me very soon though, and it will be interesting to see how quickly he tries to turn this around and actually by the end of it, John and I were speaking of this by the end of it, Forrest looked so unlike Forrest with all the changes they made, he reminded us, they made 13 signings over the summer spent about 180 million quid that actually there's a good chance he'll tear up and we'll see something completely different the most the most exciting bit for Forrest in this game was Dillian Bakwa who came on in the 60th minute and looked like he could be a star he signed him from Strasbourg for a decent decent sum of money really really quick-footed kind of right-winger but left-footed lots of cutting several times putting really dangerous crosses he looked really good Savona the right-back they signed from Juventus not so much my goodness he had a tough time including for the goal with Eze but as I said before the game there is a lot to work with he'll just the way he will he will shape that I think will be very different to now yeah well what we did learn speaking of new signings is that Martin Zubomendi oof a bit tasty isn't he Gregor he is yeah I mean even taking away his goals is a Rolls Royce isn't he he just strolls about he's one of those players that just strolls around the pitch and he seems to be at the same pace the whole time.

42:08You know, like all the kind of great Spanish midfielders. He looks so, so good. I mean, no Declan Rice either for Arsenal. And he didn't miss him. No, this is the thing. Arsenal didn't have Saliba. They didn't have, because of injury. Yeah. Didn't have, although Saliba I think is fit, but he said, I could do with a few more days. Don't need him. They've got Mosquera. Exactly. Mosquera stepped in and he's really composed, remarkably composed. He's massive as well. Arsenal have got to have one of the biggest like back six, aren't they? Because they're huge. he's a different frame to the other guys he's more kind of lithe and slim but he was he was you could see he was all kind of positional intelligence when he was dealing with someone like Chris Wood he was really good and I think 13 million yeah what a bargain Eze Madueke as I say there was no Saka no Rice no Saliba that's the and then Odegaard went off in the first half last season that's like an existential crisis it's like what are we going to do in fact it's an existential crisis is when Saka's injured never mind anyone else and the biggest thing you could say is that Madueke made Arsenal fans forget that Saka wasn't there who was it by the way on the Arsenal preview show that said Madueke would be a really good signing I forget was it it wasn't me no that was me wasn't it that was me anyway Gregor tell us why Madueke was so good he's just so direct he's had a great week hasn't he fantastic I said in the piece I wrote this morning you have to caveat a little bit he played Andorra he played the Serbia team everyone thought were going to be great and weren't he played against Morata left back for the first 37 minutes in this game who is a 6 foot 3 you know burly centre half not a left back he was being tortured but then Nico Williams went to left back and he's a good full back and he still gave him a tough tough time he's just so direct so committed every time he gets the ball to attacking the full back and like he's got variety as well there was one I think I think it was against I think Dan and Doy was the man who was marking him where he kind of stepped beyond the ball twice two ways so he didn't even move the ball he was just moving his body around it and then darted to the line and like it's like bewildering stuff and then often all he does is just a bit like Saka actually threatens because he's left footed threatens to do the cross inside or to you know drive inside that shifts the defender a little bit and that opens up the channel down the right and he's off and he does that run that Saka also does as a left footed player where he knocks it and he like ducks his shoulder in front of him so the offender goes oh my god I can't foul him it's going to be a penalty and he just has to let him go a really impressive performance what happens when Saka's fit then?

44:45just playing both next to each other it's so easy to forget Saka's obviously had injury troubles and when you're out of sight you're out of mind a lot about it it's so easy to forget like Arteta used the word he said he described he praised his courage Madueke in terms of as I said in this piece dealing with the stupid fan reaction when he was being signed by Chelsea someone raised a petition to not sign him part of that was to do with the fact that Arsenal keep signing players from Chelsea and they thought we need to aim higher Football fans being a bit tribal and stupid who would have thought it surely not but Arteta was interesting afterwards he said he spoke to him and Maduwecki's reaction was I can't wait to play for you and pull on the shirt and he was like right I like you and so he praised the courage for that and he also praised his courage for the way I described he just plays the way he just always gets the ball and attacks and he also said he kind of plays with a smile on his face and brings joy but who brings more joy than Saka no one no one I think he could play on the left I played four out of Chelsea's last five games in the Premier League on the left played the Conference League final on the left he's still as quick and direct and he is I know it's slightly not the done thing these days but I think he could but having said all that as he wasn't bad as he likes the left they've still got Max Daumann coming through they've got Nguyenieri they've still got Trossard and Martinelli although you think they're going to be a bit more on the periphery what do you think of Jokeres because this is very early but you know pesky editors looking for narratives already like Arsenal at home, great, Jokeres scores great, absolutely fantastic, away from home look a little bit more goal shy Jokeres doesn't do as well because we're heading into a big run of fixtures, Athletic this week, then City at home and Newcastle away or before the end of September as well as a game against Port Vale this is when we're going to find out about this Arsenal which side of those two coins we're talking about the thing with Gioca is there's two sides to this in that he doesn't do much he's a bit like Haaland he runs around he's physical he's not as physical as him but there's a kind of I read a couple of reports who were sort of just also underlining that the fact that he was just Johnny on the spot despite not doing anything and being the man to score the goal that Eze put across the box is something Arsenal haven't had so that's a positive but I just don't think he's going to be a game changer I think he is someone who has to have the service from the wide players and that might be okay but he is I don't know I'm still to be convinced that he is actually off the level but that's why I'd say as much as we're getting rightly excited about two excellent performances at home by Arsenal, they've then sandwiched them with two questionable away performances as well.

47:33So you're not like, oh, fully convinced that this new Arsenal is back. Depth. The depth has never been the same. Well, as I said a couple of weeks ago, I would think there's a good argument to be made that maybe Liverpool have the best team, best starting 11 of talent, but Arsenal have the best squad. So we'll see Arsenal a big couple of weeks ahead for them. There's loads more still to discuss. So I want to move on and talk about Tottenham, who got this Alison Rudd, president and CEO of the Thomas Franks fan club, I was on the editing floor with a couple of our colleagues who are Tottenham fans and I said before this game West Ham a struggling West Ham Tottenham going there full of promise full of hope in the sands of time in the history of football this would have been 2-0 West Ham wouldn't it?

48:14At any point in the history of football but this is Thomas Frank isn't it? Getting the job done looking very efficient and just winning these key games for Tottenham and they're sitting in third Yeah it was really I think this is such an important result for Spurs given how they were completely outclassed by Bournemouth in their game before the international break. And, I mean, I just can't stress that that had to be a blip for him as opposed to anything meaningful. And he doubled down on his methods. Paulina, what a... I mean, that, to me, sums up what Spurs will be under Thomas Frank. I was a huge fan of Paulina when he was at Fulham.

48:53and in a way he's a player who goes to a team in Bayern Munich who are trying to play more expansive football and there's no room for him. So he comes back to the Premier League, play for a manager who rewards graft and energy and turnovers and winning duels. I mean Spurs had none of that grit and determination about them under Postacoglu. They seem to forget that you need to win the midfield and he's there battling away, giving Spurs the right to deliver from free kicks and corners and throw-ins, which is what Thomas Frank is very good at drilling. And let's not make him a one-dimensional manager.

49:34This was still an attractive performance by Spurs. Just because your goals might come from set pieces doesn't mean what happens in between isn't attractive. I obviously made that joke when we were talking about the Champions League, but I did think it was striking watching them for 90 minutes. And as I said, colleagues who are Tottenham fans are saying, God, it's a bit like Arsenal, this, isn't it? piling on the goalkeeper, but it's very effective. I don't mind it at all. I support a team in League One, I take what I can get, but there's nothing wrong with it at all. That isn't all it is. No, it's definitely not.

50:02They were playing some beautiful stuff out from the back as well. But what I'm saying, as I said at the top here, Tottenham don't win these games all the time. West Ham away for so many years. They've dropped points. I think it was a stat, I think maybe Mourinho was the last Tottenham manager to win West Ham away in his very first game. And everyone's like, this is it, we finally cracked it because they won West Ham away. It's a significant moment. Gregor, to Alison's point about style and ideology, you don't mind not lumping it into the box, do you? No, I mean, look, this has obviously been a theme of the start of the season in terms of long throw-ins.

50:33We already knew about set pieces. Frank is a kind of pragmatic manager in stark contrast to Ange Postacoglu. And even City have evolved under Pep Guardiola. like they signed a massive number nine that was another theme of the transfer window big strapping number nines like physicality Leeds signing team of Man Mountains like there does seem to be a bit of a shift to some of the basics what would historically have been basics in football yeah yeah yeah I'm very simplifying it by saying stupid things like lump it in the mixture and stuff no no there's still a tweet with intelligence you've got a specific set piece coach who's working on the throw-ins and things like that but I don't think it's a bad thing I think possibly we maybe got slightly bogged down In the Guardiola era And sort of everyone Clearly that was the style of football The brand of football that yielded the most success And everyone then tries to emulate it Tony Cascarino made that point in his column at the weekend People try and clone what the best do Perhaps some of the things that were always very effective and effective at countering any brand of football, we're kind of lost in the free.

51:50And I think Keith Andrews was really good at speaking about this actually at the weekend. Perfectly brings us on to the final game we're going to talk about. Brentford 2, Chelsea 2. Alison, you were there talking about Keith Andrews. Don't know where to start with this one. A really interesting game. Brentford taking the lead. Chelsea coming back into it with Cole Palmer and a great goal from Moses Caicedo. And then Brentford getting, dare I say it, a very Thomas Frank-esque point against the big London rival. What did you make of this game? Come back to that question that I often ask. Was 2-2 the correct result?

52:18Yes, absolutely. It was a very, very late equaliser from Brentford, but they deserved it on the balance of play. And they surprised me. I went there thinking this is going to be boring and I'm going to miss Thomas Frank and Brian and Boomer. It's going to feel like an empty shell of a place. Did you have a little T-shirt on saying, I miss Tommy? Yeah. You're just a T-shirt shop now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to push this. It's branding, mate. That's how you get the real money coming in. Come on. And then the team sheet didn't help because five at the back, you think, well, I can see what your plan is, Keith Andrews.

52:53It's going to be just seeding possession and not having much imagination and hoping to catch them on the break. But in fact, they were bold and clever, Brentford. And yes, not quite with the sort of calibre of player of Wisser and Mbumo, but they had personality and they were confident going forward and Chelsea made the mistake I don't know I mean I had a little bit of a I wouldn't say an argument with Enzo Maresca but I disagreed with him when he said he wasn't thinking about Bayern Munich because he clearly was Interesting He said no He said no If I was thinking How did you think so? What in the intensity of the way they played?

53:34Team selection Team selection and intensity and attitude I mean it was a poor very, very passive first half with players looking like they didn't really know what they were supposed to be doing. They had two world-class full-backs on the bench, Cucurella and Rhys James, and if you were really thinking that Brentford was all that mattered, you would have been playing, well, you would have been playing them, starting at least one of them. It just, for Fahner and Gittens didn't work. It was definitely, to me, seemed like one eye on the sexier match coming up in the Champions League, a trip to Germany.

54:08and he said, no, no, no, you're wrong. If I was thinking about Bayern Munich, when Charles Pedro said to me he wasn't fit, I wouldn't have played him, would I? But I played him even though he wasn't fit because it was very, very important to win in the Premier League. Slightly false logic to me. Why are you making a player play who isn't fit if you think you can get away with it against Brentford? Isn't that what you're really thinking? So it was definitely a game of two halves from Chelsea's point of view, although they need to be, I don't know, they switched off a bit having taken the lead and miraculously Brentford seem to be a team stocked with people who can take very, very, very long throws.

54:49It's not just like they've got one person. So Kevin Sharder, he's there for his pace and he's finishing. He's there taking a long throw, which I think surprised Chelsea. Just very quickly on him because I want to feel like we're on Chelsea as a theme, but Thiago and Sharder up front, Obviously, Brentford have had this kind of change in their strikers, you know, only a couple of years ago, Tony, Visser and Bumo. How did they look as a front two? They've also got Utara, who they signed in the summer. Is there promise there for Brentford that by Christmas and in the new year we'll be going, oh, this Sharda guy's good, oh, Thiago's really good, actually.

55:20You know, he's obviously had injuries and things. There was this moment, there was a long punt upfield. Well, it might have been a very clever diagonal ball, who knows? But it was a very long pass, ball high in the air. and Thiago didn't just cushion it, he did a cushioned pass into the path of Sharda with it and Sharda looked so absolutely gobsmacked at the skill, he didn't, he froze for half a second and lost the moment. So the partnership's not quite there. But it will be there, it will be there once he realises he can do that. So it's a classic case of, and he has a tormenting personality, Thiago, as well.

55:54You sort of feel like defenders don't want him running at them. Ding! He goes marauding. He's marauding. And it's one of those players whose personality shines. So he was the cover on the Match Day programme, which was hilarious because he wasn't wearing kit. He was wearing casual wear. And it just looked like he was on the cover of some... GQ or something. Yeah, like modelling some sort of new style. And what about Keith Andrews? What did you make of him in press conferences? Again, I wasn't expecting much. I don't know why. I was obviously biased because he's not Thomas Frank. But he was, I mean, obviously he was in a good mood because he'd secured a point that his team deserved.

56:36He'd seen his team play well and their heads not go down when they lost the lead. And he was just very articulate. Just every question he answered with depth of thought. And you felt before he spoke, he really listened to the question and then he answered it properly as opposed to saying what he wanted to say I love managers who do that that's like Thomas Frank absolutely huge weekend for Keith Andrews then forget about the point he's won over Alison Rudd that was arguably his biggest challenge as Brentford manager just the final question then on Chelsea because Alison you brought it up the idea of Champions League Keith Andrews one thing and I like this this is the same theme as well almost every week now he's got this old school sort of flavour about him as well like and lower league he's had an eclectic journey in football first I was at this first game against Borist you said they were dreadful yeah and he said we didn't do the basics people say basics we use it like it's a dirty word so he was kind of quite cutting about his team there against Villa the 1-0 against Villa he was like it was scrappy it was ugly he was like and I loved it and then in this game he was like talking about the snobbery around long throws he was like if big teams do it it's clever and stuff but we've been doing this for a long time so I think he's like he's also a good fit in that terms in that sort of term as well because you know Brentford's journey not too dissimilar to his and the guy he's replacing he's obviously worked alongside him but they kind of they have an appreciation of like what fundamental things are in football that get you rewards and success and like you can you can you know talk everything else up but those are the first the most important things and that's you can see that clearly is sort of style of management former defender with more than 300 games in the Football League banging on the table that's when you know Gregor Robertson's excited about football Alison just very quickly then coming back to Chelsea final question for you do you think that Chelsea fans are heading into a potentially frustrating season with the Champions League and all the allure that that has after the Club World Cup success of going well we could be title contenders or actually we need to get through in the Champions League are we going to get more of this do we think from Enzo Mariska?

58:52I got the impression what matters to him right now is the Champions League. And the more he denied it, the more I believed it to be true. So maybe that's unfair of me. But it's quite the leap, isn't it, to go from conference league. And I know that some of that was assuaged by winning the Club World Cup to a degree. But still, that was a slightly embarrassing season for Chelsea. and having to divide the club in half. So they almost like pretended they weren't really there because the players who were playing in the Premier League, they had nothing to do with the team that was playing in some far-flung place where no one's ever heard of in the Conference League, where, you know, the Chelsea team cost more than the entire budget of all the clubs in the Conference League.

59:40It was such a mismatch. So I feel they're back now, Chelsea, where they belong. and if there's more of this to-ing and fro-ing and I don't think the juggling worked well enough, Maresco is going to have to juggle better than he did last season to make it another top-full finish and do well in the Champions League. We'll see if it's worth it against Bayern Munich this week in the Champions League. We'll have to leave it there. Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for Paul Hurst. Thank you very much for listening. I know I say this all the time, but do get in touch with me if you've got any questions or points you want to raise to theguystom.clark at thetimes.co.uk.

1:00:17We'll see you on Thursday to talk about the Champions League.

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