Will City or Arsenal stay unbeaten?

0:00Business is booming, but you know what really helped? Zero. The accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think unpaid bills were just part of it. Ugh. But batch payments? Wow. Automated accounts payable? Even better. All in one place? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business. And search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Fresh air. Longer days. A chance to reset. This season, let therapy be part of your spring cleaning, clearing mental clutter, shaking off stuckness, and building something better.

0:42Grow Therapy helps you get there. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan.

1:19Visit growtherapy.com slash start now today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. GrowTherapy.com slash StartNow. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:57Chelsea, the Merseyside Derby, Tottenham's dropped points, Morgan Gibbs White, a thriller at Villa and loads, loads more. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the reporter who covers Arsenal and other London clubs for the Times, it's Gary Jacob. Good morning. The football reporter who covers Chelsea and clubs in the South, it's Peter Rutzler. Really enthusiastic. Yeah, yeah, I'm enjoying the new introduction of the good morning, that's good. I'm stablish her off, aren't I? Yeah, absolutely, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual. Morning Tom. There you go, that's Nice, isn't it?

2:27Never happened before. Loads to discuss. No more intros. Gary, thank you for setting the tone there. City Arsenal. It was a cracker, wasn't it? What a really, really great game. I was on the editing floor for The Times yesterday. Everyone, we were all nervous about this, weren't we? We thought it was going to be a bit of a cagey game. It was a really, really good game. Gary, let's start with just some general thoughts, because you were there at the Etihad with Paul Hurst, Martin Samuel and Charlotte Dunker for this one. Before we get into title races and what it all means, a really good game how did you see it pan out was City's win fair do you think small margins yeah and the margins went against Arsenal yesterday you know the chances and probably the two goals are sort of slight well certainly the second goal the slight luck on the goal but I think also overall we've really pleased they attack well unlike the final where he kind of set them up to be a bit defensive and he couldn't play through and he actually set them up to be attacking yesterday and they caused City problems with the press they created chances and they looked threatening and they weren't overroar you thought you'd go there and maybe City would overroar them but they actually had a lot of confidence on the pitch and actually to play and I think the Arsenal fans have been wanting the technical players to be playing in the team not necessarily sort of Martinelli or Trossard wanting Eze to be playing because then you can start playing through them creating chances and he did that and he got the rewards the flip side of course as he kind of, you could look at Eze maybe for the first goal and you could look at Martinelli for the second goal, overly pressed and then Nico O 'Reilly bombs down the side and I suppose they got a little bit of fortune with the cross which went past Rodri.

4:03But it was, I think, you know, Arsenal will look at those chances and it feels like the same as last year to an Arsenal fan. They will say, well, we haven't taken those chances at the killer moments and Haaland does. Yeah, absolutely. Gregor, Pete, would you agree with that assessment generally before we get into the kind of praise for City, Arsenal, what's to come? I was impressed with the way Arsenal set up. Like you say, you expect these games to be tight. The fact that they were front foot, the fact that they were aggressive. I think Gary's right, there were those fine margins, but you just saw two teams in different states, I think, in April.

4:37And I think there is an art to finishing strong. There is an art to being very effective in the springtime. Pep Guardiola's long in the tooth with experience of that. I was just thinking, you know, you look at PSG suddenly just coming into their own at this time of the season, Bayern. Like, that's the very best can do that. And you just feel that Arsenal have, even though that they seem, even when they set up right, it's just to swing those margins, to have that little bit of quality, you just, you need that fluidity. On the Eze point, he's such a strange kind of Arsenal fit in a way. and I did wonder when he came off and you're looking at Martin Odegaard and you'll have watched a lot more than Arsenal than I have and you just think Odegaard is not quite at that level that he was in seasons past and there are a couple of moments there where if you can inject that kind of quality that we saw from Scherke that can tilt these kind of contests Towards the end Odegaard was coming and getting the ball wasn't he?

5:36As if he was about to unpick City but you never actually think he was going to do it that's the thing Gregor, as much as Arsenal were good and I'd agree with the chaps that they were good here there was still a swagger about City wasn't there quite telling that Haaland and Cherki scored both their goals Cherki's in particular fantastic goal and they both just kind of swagger off chest out as if to say yeah it's us we're the title winners here yeah it's a bit jarring actually that we kind of you know we've started the show seeing how good Arsenal were and we'll be pleased with you know the fact that they weren't overawed by going to City like this is that a reflection of where they were is that a reflection of where they were of course it is but it still feels a bit weird and yeah they played well like they started on the front foot and even though City came really flying to the blocks they almost scored Arsenal responded really well and in the second half I think City started to really take control and actually even after they took the lead we've spoken a lot this season about how they've not suffocated the other team by keeping the ball and they did that for quite a long period then Arsenal came back into it and had a couple of chances as Ezi hit the post obviously Havertz's header at the end like my god heart and mouth stuff but I don't know there wasn't a great deal in it it's true there were fine margins but I still feel that like it's a funny it seems it kind of says everything that Arsenal we're talking about Arsenal coming away from this being quite pleased that they weren't like roundly thrashed and that's true for the mood going forward but it still says a lot about how Arsenal came to this game they set up.

7:10You know, we're so, we're used to, with this Arsenal-Arteta team being so, just functional enough to get results and they play on these margins and that's an overarching criticism, right? That you, if you do fall short the fact you're playing so close to them, you'll get found out. But also, I think with, with this, with this Arsenal team and actually Johnny Norcroft's piece previewing this weekend talking about the freedom that Guardiola is offering, Xerchi, as opposed to as I was mentioning earlier, really sort of set the tone quite well for the way these teams are at this point in the season.

7:42I think there's a reference in there to Sir Alex Ferguson with United and the team talks he used to give and just letting the players get on with it, not overdoing it, not overselling it. And you just feel with Arsenal, it's that desperation to get over the line that almost Arteta's kind of, I want to say micromanaging, but the fire stuff in the week and just adding thoughts to players. I think that the whole principle of that, Gary, you'll know this best to me, but was to sort of burn stuff that wasn't, you know, the negative words. In the process, you're actually putting that into people's minds.

8:14You're actually making them think about that kind of stuff. Whereas you look at Guardiola and sort of the way he's adapted to using Cherki and just letting him play and just allowing the team to sort of, without overcomplicating it, you know. I think maybe the point is as well, to Gregor's point, and Gary, this is maybe one for you, the Arsenal fans and the players and the team will be looking at this and going, well, if we just played like this against Wolves in the second half and against Bournemouth, we wouldn't be here. Absolutely. I think that's what they would say. I think probably as well, because Pete's pointing about the end of the season, I think Arteta said it last week, what has he learned from all the title races?

8:48And he said, the one thing is you need everyone fit in April or May. And I think Odegaard's come back from injury and he's not fully firing. Habits is not fully firing. And I think they've had too many of these things and people say, okay, they spent a lot of money last summer on players to get that depth. But I'm not sure about some of those players and that depth are good enough for that kind of the big occasion. And I think they're missing someone like Calafuri, where you saw the way that Nicky O 'Reilly ran up. Calafuri would have given him that sort of outlet to kind of actually put some doubt into City's mind about where is he going to be?

9:21Is he going to roam? And he's technically a lot better than, you know, he can cap his play well and certainly defended Semenyo well, but coming out with it is not as good. But I think you're right. they haven't whereas you look at City results they can beat teams 3-4 Arsenal haven't beaten enough teams this season by good enough margins you know the squeak the Brighton game a few weeks ago you've got the Wolves game like you mentioned Brentford they eke over the line so the bigger picture thing is I think if Arteta's going to learn anything is that perhaps he should be less cautious which is what Pete was saying yeah well we'll come back to kind of going forward in the next five games and things for Arsenal but let's talk about some of the individual performances in this game Gregor, I wanted to ask you about Erling Haaland against Gabriel.

10:07From a defensive point of view, and Gabriel, you've heard so many defenders down the years, and Jamie Carragher was one when talking about Didier Drogba, he always said when facing him, don't wind him up, be nice to him, chat with him, how's the family, all that kind of stuff. We know this about Erling Haaland. He says all the time, I love the battle, I love the scrap. Gabriel just kind of get himself too wound up for this fight, or is it just a great modern Premier League rivalry that will always be like this? it's a great modern Premier League rivalry and that's the way Gabriel is as well he's you know I've said many times this season he's like Arsenal's warrior spirit and I don't think there's any other way for him he's not going to back down or he's not going to like tiptoe around Erling Haaland he wants to wrestle him and fight him and battle him and and rip his shirt yeah and you know lucky not to be sent off though I think probably yeah I wouldn't like personally I don't want I don't want that to be a red card but I think given what is a red card these days it is a red card and Erling Haaland himself has said you know I could have gone down and I would have got him sent off I will never do that and you know Erling Haaland's got this personality about him but yeah he's right but I still like deep down don't want that to be a red card it's a great battle it has been for a long long time you think of like the ball getting bounced off Gabriel's head after the game a couple of years ago some of the scraps and yeah that image of him with kind of I don't know how he got his underarm yeah I don't know how that happened out of his shirt yeah brilliant brilliant battle it was interesting I've even been talking about Gabriel Saliba and Haaland also for long spells in that game had really tough battles as well because you'd have Gabriel just chasing Scherke and this was part of how Arteta set up really aggressive man for man there were times where Scherke would drop so deep to the edge of the city penalty area Gabriel would be with him you could really see the intent at least to cause problems obviously that resulted in the goal for Havertz just being that aggressive and trying to be opportunistic but to go back to Gabriel I consider him player of the season because of the way he's evolved into that role.

12:06To see him go up against Haaland and to relish that battle, and ultimately Haaland wins it, doesn't he? Is that kind of embodying this kind of battle between the two sides? Because when you think about some of the players that we've mentioned, Gary talked about no Calafiore, O 'Reilly offering something more than Hincapie. You've got Cherky, brilliant at this stage in the season, able to unlock. He looked like he could unlock any team, whereas Arsenal may be not quite having that from their players, Eze not quite at the same level. You've got Bernardo Silva producing a captain's performance that was of a far greater level, in my opinion, than Martin Odegaard.

12:40Is it just that City experience, quality, talent, peaking at the right time? A bit of all those things, I think. This is an Arsenal team that we've said are the best squad in the league, they've got one of the best squads in Europe. How has it come to this pinch point where we're just looking at City and going, oh, they're just ahead of them in every part of the pitch? How have we come to this point? Partly because, as Gary said, Arsenal have some of their best players missing. Like you were saying, just the little percentages. I was thinking back to Myles Lewis Skelly's performance in this game when he scored and he did the celebration of Haaland.

13:15And how he's just fallen away this season. And this season, Nico Riley has emerged from Man City. And Gary's right. The difference between what he offers going forward to Hincapi or even to Calafiori is really important how many goals has he popped up with recently how many assists many times that one in the second half where he stepped into midfield and he got the pass from Gehi and he just took it in a beautiful movement the bit of skill on the byline as well yeah that was ridiculous but that one was so intelligent he took it in one movement and then he just took one touch to pause while I think it was Doku made a run down the outside and then slipped it inside the fullback there's players as you say when Arsenal are kind of playing within themselves but they're not playing with great freedom there are so many players for City at the moment who are doing that and Silva was Silva was outstanding Rodri was outstanding Gehi and Kusunov have suddenly created this really formidable partnership and although I don't think Doku and Semenyu had great days they're still just always offering that threat and holding the width They were better in the final than I think yesterday Arsenal sort of locked them up a lot better yesterday but then also look at someone like Nonny who's been inconsistent since he's joined him and I think the performance yesterday, end product could have been better they've really suffered from not having that outlet one on one in those wide areas and you sort of wonder whether Arteta with a temptation it's good to bring on Dalman earlier, bring on a guy who does the unexpected because no one knows what he's going to do and he's kind of completely fearless.

14:55As you sort of wonder in the running whether he will have a much bigger role than he's had just since he's had. You feel like they're holding him back because they don't want to kind of expose him too much but in the running when it's going to be about getting goals you're going to have to go for it. There's a management element maybe. I was just thinking as you were talking there Gregor about Scherke hasn't played every game, right? He was in the team for a little bit. Pep Guardiola's working on how do I use this guy who clearly isn't going to be just robotic. Phil Foden sat on the bench coming on for 10 minutes at the end, But then he's thrown him in the last few weeks and he's been fantastic.

15:28He's found that balance with Bernardo Silva dropping a bit deeper. And you just wonder, even with Timber's injury, for example, with Arsenal, and then Ben White comes in, I think he got injured, didn't he? Straight away, yeah. And it's almost like trying to use players when actually it might be better to take you out and play him so that they come in a little bit sharper. So that when you get to these moments in the season, actually the team is sort of kind of better set because Nico O 'Reilly hasn't played every game, he's had spells out and then he's come back in again I mean O 'Reilly's a unicorn player isn't he particularly in this modern era with how you use fullbacks and you see them inverted, he's got the technical ability of a number 10, you know one of the questions you always ask when you see obviously I cover Chelsea so I'm watching a fullback play in a number 10 position is the fullback's characteristics playing in the 10 role right, but Nico O 'Reilly is that he's come through the academy he is an attack midfielder so when he inverts he's got that but then he's got the physicality of a box crasher and that makes it so hard to deal with as an opposition defence to kind of play you're trying to track him it makes a massive massive difference and you wonder it's fitness isn't it but it's also managing players into form at the right time so that you don't get into these games and you're playing someone who's not quite there and can't actually make those differences Gary pick up on a second but also maybe in Arteta's defence you know they are still in a Champions League semi-finals whereas Manchester City are not and City are still in the FA Cup and you know Arteta is they've still got the Champions League they're still in the Champions League and they're still in the league race and they're still very much in the league race but to Pete's point about management of players is there anything in that in terms of what Arteta's done Gary?

17:07I suppose he would say I think certainly in this case of Zubumendi he could have rotated more I mean they brought Norgard in who was the Brentford captain and you think okay that's not a bad deal why isn't he playing and he's played I think like 56 minutes of league football which is nothing. So why isn't he playing against your Burnley's and your Wolves? He's surely good enough to play against the lesser teams. Maybe you don't get him into the top teams and then he gives Zubimendi a break or you give him half an hour at the end of the game and he hasn't done that at all. He's pretty much played Zubimendi all the way through or Rice all the way through.

17:36And so I thought of all the squad depth that Arsenal got I still think Arteta doesn't trust enough of those players in sort of things. Trust is a key word, right? Trust is a key word. Everything we've talked about with Arsenal so far, a little bit of trust. Are you trusting this team to get over the line? The fire in the training round. It suggests you're not trusting them to deal with the noise outside. Are you trusting the ones you're bringing in to play in these moments? Can you do that when you've never done it, though? Can you do that when you've never done it? When you've fallen short so many times and you've not quite got it.

18:08We talked about it with Klopp's Liverpool, didn't you? They've not quite done it against City and then they finally did. Can you just do that? Can you do the Sir Alex Ferguson thing you referenced before and going, go on lads, go and enjoy yourselves. Go and win this title. It's very difficult, but it does come back to that as a shirky example where Pep Guardi goes, I can trust, I'm going to trust what I've seen before. And Arteta won't, I don't think. Because it's difficult to break that until you shake the... I think as well, I mean, obviously this game might become pivotal in the end, but when you look at the whole of the season, Arsenal should have been points clear by now, really.

18:40I think that's the bigger picture. Arsenal should have been much, much clearer, should have taken advantage of all City slip-ups and then they wouldn't even have to they could have gone there even if they lost it wouldn't have made any difference and I think that is a thing they will look back on as all those other games, same as last year the 14 draws and then it's too many. Let's throw it forward then because we've teased some thoughts about the upcoming title race in the coming weeks but Greg I just want to come back to you because Gary and Pete and myself and Martin Samuel in his match report and generally most people I think watching that game were coming out of it going Arsenal played well Martin Samuel used the line in his online report it was the right way to lose this game whereas Arsenal have had these moments before where they've lost these games particularly at the Etihad and gone that's it there's no coming back from this do you not agree with that then because you sounded like you were a little bit sceptical of that in your opening analysis I understand that everyone was kind of seems keen to praise Arsenal for having a go but I think that in itself is quite remarkable quite damning Well it's possibly damning of their approach in recent weeks And their approach for swathes of the season Not all of the season but large parts of the season And I think actually if we get to the end of the season And you look back on it and Arsenal haven't won the league That will be the biggest thing that everyone criticises Arsenal about How can you have this team with this quality And this amount of talented attacking players and not let them do the thing that they like doing the best the most more frequently and like and it's not that's oversimplifying it too it's actually about there's so many times I mean earlier in the season even or in seasons gone by where particularly at home Arsenal would smother whoever they played they'd always play really high up the pitch and they were their pressing was outstanding it was impossible to play against or play through and like the centre halves would be squeezed right up into their you know so but I don't know where has that gone where has that gone in recent weeks and recent months it's not really been the same it's not been as effective and it's not just all about who you're playing who the opposition is I know you've got to have a different game plan if you're playing against Man City but I think the fundamental thing when we come to end the season and look back will be why have Arsenal been so cautious but is the point then that we is it not that we saw those things that you highlighted in this game and so that us in the media and fans are going we've seen it we've seen that they've got it back whereas after Bournemouth we were like where have this team gone there's only five games to go and there won't be top of the table in two days time well let's get to those five games to go and just finish a wrap up with looking towards the end of the season I'm going to start with some quick fire questions then we'll delve into it a little bit more but yeah just give us your snap answer to these and then we'll go into a little bit more detail is the title race over Pete?

21:29no Gary? no Gregor? will Arsenal win all five of their games Pete? no definitely not Gary? no Gregor? therefore will City win all six of their games no definitely not no

21:45maybe maybe right who wins it Gregor I think City now do you think they're going to beat Everton and Bournemouth those games are tough they're really tough and they've still got something to play those are the two I would look at if I was an Arsenal fan and go I'd also go on continue just to finish it yeah so you've got City I think so now Gary

22:06I said Arsenal away long just and I'm going to stick with it. Pete? I think Arsenal still. Wow, fascinating. So let's go into it then. Well, not Bezos. Well, yeah, so let's go into it then. So we've got, you both, Gary and Pete, you've both said neither of them will win all their games and you've both got Arsenal just. So how do we get to that point? So City will overtake Arsenal, right, this week. They should do. They should be Burnley. But doesn't the fixtures work that Arsenal then will play twice before City then play again? So there's every chance that Arsenal will ever play. So Arsenal's remaining fixtures, we've got Newcastle on Saturday, then Fulham, West Ham away Burnley at home to be booked in and then they finish with Palace away at the end of the season so you know you're saying they're not going to win all of those games but what are you thinking they're going to be I just think the timing of the fixtures will allow Arsenal to then get back in front and then City will have to chase again and I just think the nature of City's fixtures are they're difficult so after Burnley they've got Everton away Manchester City then Brentford at home Bournemouth away Crystal Palace at home and they finish with Aston Villa at home which is a good omen for them because they finished with Aston Villa at home a few seasons ago and won the title.

23:11So Gary picking up some of Pete's points there, you'd think both teams are going to drop points and that Arsenal are squeaky. The Everton, the Bournemouth, the Villa, not easy games. And also, perhaps it's not an unfair thing to say, but it was only a few weeks ago City were drawing West Ham and drawing and dropping points and people were going, they're not the City of Old. And so they've done it in two games against Arsenal in the final yesterday, but there are plenty other games but they've not done it this season which Gregor Robinson is a point you've said all season this has been yours has been the slowest pivot the slowest pivot round to City right in here you've held off so long and now it's finally come and you know the guys are still saying Arsenal you're looking at it with a clarity about Arsenal's fixtures that they don't deserve they don't warrant it because are we sure they're going to beat Newcastle at home Newcastle are in a funk but Arsenal at home at the moment is not a happy I don't think Arsenal win every game.

24:07I definitely don't. It's time we're fighting for the Lays. So just to be clear, Pete, you don't think Arsenal win every game, but just because Gary's picked out Everton, Bournemouth, Villa, are you saying the same thing? Are you at this kind of every game's a tough game? You know, this City team that suddenly looks like they can beat anyone. It's a fool's game to predict every result and say they're going to win every game. Because it's going to be incredibly close. It's going to be very, very tight unless one of them completely falls off. And if one of them's going to fall off, it will be Arsenal.

24:33but I just I just think just given the next week two weeks three weeks it can work in a way that Arsenal can use but as I've literally been talking about the whole time there's no guarantee that Arsenal will do that Just final word from you Greg and then on this idea so you think City you think that they will look at these games and go they could win all of them because that's what some people are saying now that they look at them and go City is just going to win everything I'm not sure they have to You don't think they will You think it's more about Arsenal than it is about City Well clearly both but yeah I mean like I just at the moment I understand Arsenal like come away from it thinking if there's a good way to lose then we've just done it but they still lost they lost at home to Bournemouth like there's context as well to consider about City's final two games Aston Villa might well have played a Europa League final four days before they could be drunk Crystal Palace we're still not sure when that game is that might be five days before they play a conference league final so that might work in their favour they might have to make rest Arsenal are playing Palace on the last day as well I know that might work in both of them they've both got Burnley so they both might look at those and Burnley are the worst got the worst defensive record so they're both looking at how many goals have we been getting against Burnley it'd be good if it came down to goal difference wouldn't it final shootout on the final day if it had been one all year so it could have potentially gone to a shootout oh that would have been really fun that would have been an appropriate way to end the season it still sounds like it's on a knife edge though so listeners and viewers if you've got ideas about how the title race might pan out do get in touch with me tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk it will not be the last time we talk about City or Arsenal on the podcast this season just behind them in the Premier League table Manchester United in third looking to cement that place in the Champions League next season that was with a win at Chelsea at the weekend Pete you were there for this one this game probably actually more of it I've introed it talking about Manchester United but it probably is much more about Chelsea isn't it they are in a real, real bad place at the minute.

26:31Yeah, than a really bad place. I mean, the whole afternoon pointed to that. You had a protest that felt more coherent than, I mean, they've had a couple of other previous protests, but this one, they got the Strasbourg Ultras in as well. It just felt a bit more, there was more meat to it, and then you go to the game. Does that translate into the ground? Not so much. Not so much. There's very much a sense of still getting behind the team. I mean, in the second half, you got the smatterings of the same chance against Clear Lake. majority partners in Blue Coat Consortium. I think Roman Abramovich's name got one outing as well.

27:06But because it was a tight game, they're trying to get the team back into the result. But yeah, I mean, that's stemming from what we're seeing on the pitch now with Chelsea. And they're now closer to 14th than they are to the Champions League places. and the ramifications of that are massively significant. You only had to see their finances that were published last week to know what that will mean in terms of the recruitment that they want to do in the summer. The club is still confident that they'll be able to do work on the squad. But I mean, I can introduce Gregor at this point to talk about their recruitment.

27:48Don't let him do it. But I mean, in the game today, I was more focusing on what they did last summer and just placing ourselves back after the Club World Cup final where you looked at the team and go, okay, you're actually going somewhere here. How do you build on it? They spend£250 million and we have this. Now there's been context, there's the change of manager, which yes, there's the conflict with Enzo Maresca and it's also about the manager as much as the club in that regard. But you've also got the Club World Cup and the injuries. I mean, you can go through the new signings and they've all had hamstring injuries.

28:19Esteval went off after 15 minutes with a second hamstring injury. Jamie Gittens has done his hamstring twice. That's really hurt them. But you then look at who they brought in and you look at the struggles of Alejandro Garnaccio. A lot of this felt kind of predictable in some ways. You're now looking at a team that's really, to be honest, in danger of not qualifying for Europe at all, considering how congested it is. It's been pretty surprising that no one's actually leapfrogged them. I mean, we were talking before about Brentford, the number of draws they've had. They really should be above them by now.

28:49Well, as you say, just to be clear, Chelsea in six with 48 points then Brentford and Bournemouth behind them on exactly the same number of points and then you've got Brighton and Everton just a point behind them Sunderland just two points behind them so that battle for the European places after the Champions League is incredibly tight and there is a world in which Chelsea finish ninth, tenth They haven't scored in the last four league games they've lost all four of those they're not scoring they haven't scored in any of these games and I think they've taken loads of shots but they're of low quality I think reflecting on this game in particular you know Chelsea dominated the play but they didn't they never they felt like it was in United's hands felt like they had control and I think I think the XG per shot and I know people have their own opinions of XG but it does tell you that the quality of the chances to creating with their third lowest of the season so then we're not talking about them having clear-cut chances yes they hit the woodwork twice one's a De La Peta and the others I think a Maserawi header that's deflected onto the bar for Liam Rossini you know he had when he initially came in it was you know he's had no time to work with the players but the last couple of weeks he's had the time and actually they're starting to look worse.

29:50So that's not reflecting very well on him either. Does he just look more than ever like what a lot of people thought he was, which was just a temporary, long-term, interim, whatever mad title you want to give him in the first place? Liam Rossini is a blue co-appointment. He's come from Strasbourg. He knows the sporting directors really well. The idea with him coming in is that he can speak to them and they can work better. If Liam Rossini doesn't work out, it absolutely focuses on those who have appointed him. It's almost like this is the last one, you know, before you have to go why is there no one else taking accountability When you say last one do you mean kind of rip it up and start like rip up the whole plan basically Well we're already getting a sense they're going to have to change the plan which has been you know I think it's not taken away it's not a surprise is it we've all been saying the same criticisms There's been noises from the players even Cole Palmer's interview this week last week sorry saying I've spoken to the owners like so Rhys James spoke to the owners there's no reason why he signed why he signed his contract he's been told what the plan is.

30:48He wouldn't say that if he didn't think we were going to be challenging for coffee. But this is the crunch point when I talk about finances because there's a sense that, okay, we'll do these changes and maybe we'll bring in older players or experienced players, whatever. It's characters that they need and I think that they've clocked that because Limitin is talking about emotional stability which, it's the kind of people in there. It's not just about age or whatever. You've got to have the right kind of group. Can they actually do it? Can they actually do it without the sales? And we talk about Enzo Fernandez and he came back into the team, wasn't given the armband, which was massively significant.

31:22It felt so deliberate. He was going to buy him. PR move, didn't it? Give Caicedo the armband. It's an easy option. After the contract in the week and oh, it's all good news and we're going in the right direction and you're like, hang on, Caicedo, Fernandez, Parma, if they finish ninth, they're all going to be wanting to leave, aren't they? It's not even just about wanting to leave. I genuinely think there will be a need to. They'll need to sell one of them. Just because of what the numbers look like unless they've got another magic trick wouldn't put that beyond them either well no quite so wouldn't put some like creative parenting masterstroke to but look like everyone just sugarcoats what has what's going on what everyone who does who has this creative accountancy sort of these tricks it's cheating really it's cheating you know if you sell off your women's team you sell off like infrastructure like you know hotel or whatever it's it's cheating to get around rules that everyone else is supposed to tries their best to abide by not every other club does I understand that but they've taken it to a whole new degree and they've still they've still given themselves a future which looks really uncertain financially so I'm with Pete even if they do wise up and go we need to change we need to tweak our project a bit we need to sign some players it's not just about talent realise it's not just about talent it's about a little bit of experience and who the characters are you're bringing into the building and actually probably moving a few out who aren't the right kind of characters.

32:53So even if they do wise up to that and just decide to change their model a little bit are they going to be able to do it? Or how are they going to do it? Do you trust those who have done it before over the last few recruitment windows to do it again? I'd say no but... They might end up trying to have to go for the FA Cup to get a Europa League place at this rate. They've got the game against Brighton. Are they going to beat Leeds at Wembley on this current form? You don't think so? No. Who will go, Pete, then, in the summer? Well, this is the other big thing. Who's coming in to pay the... Because it's not just about selling the players.

33:22You've got to make sure you're selling them and they're not being booked as losses. Someone would give them 80 to 100 million for Cole Palmer, wouldn't they? But, you know, Palmer's come out and said he's committed. But then, of course, before the game, he then says to TV, you know, everything changes if we don't qualify for the Champions League. This is hypothetically, but, you know, you're going to look at those that you get for profit. And who are they? they're probably Trevor Chalibur if they can get someone to buy him you're looking at Joshua Champong Gregor will buy him Gregor loves Trevor Chalibur like Chalibur's one of the most consistent players but if you actually look at it in terms of accounting then that's what you're looking at so I've been enjoying the quick file just to finish this section then because we've still got loads more to discuss Chelsea Champions League yes or no no no seven points adrift Europa League no really wow well I mean maybe well no No, maybe no.

34:14If Villa win the Europa League and finish fifth, then it will drop to one more, doesn't it? So they could get in through seventh. I'm not saying they'll finish sixth. Who cares? They won't. They won't, really. I mean, it's not the competition they want to be playing in. It's not the competition the players want to be playing in. There's an interesting wider point. If they qualify for the Conference League, financially it's actually a bit problematic when you're a club like that. And considering their settlement agreement, this is purely hypothetically speaking, but there is a way in which they go actually we'll just break the settlement agreement we'll take an exclusion from Europe so they don't play in the conference league genuinely that I think financially that's what would make sense because the spending rules are more stringent from UEFA than to the Premier League right?

34:57that's what you're saying yes but no I'm saying in terms of the settlement agreement that they've agreed if they break that at any point it's quite strict particularly in the next couple of years coming in then you're actually looking at it and going well conference league we can just forget that and just not have a season in Europe and then reset that extraordinary in themselves. Absolutely madness. Do you think the people above will look at themselves for the decisions they've made? But that's why there's a protest, right? Do you think they would ever look at themselves or do you think the owners would ever look at the people that have been put in place to make those decisions for the recruitment?

35:28They did. Last summer. I mean, there should be that accountability there. Because as much as it could be, they could change the manager again, it is the make-up of the squad, it is the project that they have instigated. So you have to look at those that they've been higher. Who's done the higher? It's not happened many times in football, Gary. I wouldn't bank on it happening again anytime soon. A good win for Manchester United, though, as I intro'd there. And probably a good sign of the difference in recruitment between these two teams, Pete, as I was discussing that Mateus Cunha getting a goal, signing proven Premier League players and another assist for Bruno Fernandes.

36:00What a season he is having. Loads more still to discuss, but let's take a little break and let's mention Brentford, another side who failed to capitalise on a Chelsea defeat in their 0-0 draw with Fulham on Saturday, though. Brentford didn't make a single substitution. How many times has that happened in the Premier League this season? Find out after the break.

36:27Business is booming. But you know what really helped? Xero, the accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think unpaid bills were just part of it. Ugh. But batch payments? Wow. Automated accounts payable, even better. All in one place. That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Taking care of your eyes shouldn't be a hassle. That's why Warby Parker is a one-stop shop for all your vision needs. Our prescription glasses and sunglasses are expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable.

37:09Stop by a nearby store or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. Did we mention we offer eye exams and take vision insurance too? For everything you need to see, head to your nearest Warby Parker store or visit WarbyParker.com today. That's WarbyParker.com. In 2004, Andrew Malkinson was sentenced to life in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Now another man has been convicted of the brutal rape in Greater Manchester. and we can reveal the true story of what happened that night. I'm Emily Dugan from the Sunday Times and I've been investigating one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in modern British history.

37:49Listen to the full podcast series with new episodes by searching for 17 years wherever you get your podcasts.

38:04Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times I'm Tom Clark and I've got Peter Rutzler, Gary Jacob and Gregor Robertson with me. Gregor pretended he didn't know the answer to the question and then got it right with a guess. How many times has a club not made a substitution in Premier League this season, Gregor? Two. Two. Brentford were the second. Crystal Palace in their 2-1 defeat to Sunderland in January was the first time. Gregor, we mentioned on last week's show that desire to talk about Scotland. Play the bagpipes in the background. It's time for Gregor Robertson's 60-second Scotland update.

38:33Go. What happened this weekend? Nothing in the league, Tom. Nothing. As you were in the league, we'll return to that next week. But Neil Lennon led Dunfermuth to the Scottish Cup final, which was a nice... Where he'll face his old boss, Martin O 'Neill. Yes, Martin O 'Neill led Celtic there as well. So two old-timers going head-to-head soon, but back to league action, back to the best title race in Europe next week. Next week, okay. Stay tuned for that update on next Monday's show. Pete, you've got to go to speak to Liam Rossini at a press conference for Chelsea in just a second, but I wanted to ask you about Andoni Iriola, because Bournemouth and their situation is another club that you've been covering in the last week or so.

39:09A brilliant win for them at Newcastle. Again, this amazing scenario where Bournemouth are one of these clubs that we've just talked about chasing a Europa League of place and Andonio Iola has said, I'm off. You were at his press conference on Friday and detected a man that was actually not quite sure of the decision he's ended up making. Yeah, really compelling really to see someone basically be put to him. You know, you're 12 games, I mean obviously 13 now. chasing Europe for the first time in the club's history you know, why would you leave? And he goes, yeah, I don't disagree with any of that to be honest yeah, I'm not going to convince you but yeah, so obviously he's decided to leave Bournemouth have moved quite quickly and it's like they're going to appoint Marco Rosa former Leipzig and Dortmund coach he's actually a coach that Iriola once praised his style of play so there's clearly a synergy there but for Iriola But yeah, it's kind of trying to work out why he's made this decision.

40:05And I don't think he is motivated in the same way or motivated in a way that's all about climbing up the ladder as quickly as possible. He seems a very thoughtful guy considering. His argument, I think, was that, you know, people get used to the same faces. I want to end in a good way. I'd rather make the mistake of going a year too soon than a year too late. Right. I mean what he has done he puts himself very firmly in the marketplace for what's going to be a hugely interesting summer very much summer but there is that sense and as you said I did get the first question it's like are you absolutely sure you know and he said there's a Spanish saying that only a fool is certain of anything wise words he's a wise guy but you do wonder if they did sneak into the it'd be amazing as he drops to six enjoy it I mean, we talk about that kind of managerial merry-go-round that everyone's predicting in the summer.

41:07We've already got Oliver Glasner saying he's leaving Palace and now Iriola as well. I mean, how good do we think Iriola is, Gary? Do we want to see him back in the Premier League? Do we want to see him at one of the traditional big six clubs? We're just talking about Chelsea. Do you think he could manage City if Pep goes? I think that's too big of a step up. I think the style difference would be quite interesting. I don't think he would fit City. I mean, he seemed to be open to anything. He's talked a lot about not being a coach forever, that he's aware of his family's sacrifices. He has two daughters, and I think he knows at some point he will just step out.

41:42He said he doesn't think that's now, which made it very interesting to think why he's in Bournemouth. But then he talked about, you know, I have no idea what my next job is. The assumption is, oh, Bill Bauer have got a vacancy this summer, and he's a club legend there, sixth all-time appearance holder. from what I understand I don't think he wants that job I don't think he's that's what he's looking at yet I think it's something he could do at some point but not yet Palace were looking at him but that's not this so where do you think he might go? This is it he talked about oh I could coach on another continent okay that's unexpected I could coach a national team it's like okay that's different Honestly sounds like he's making it up as he goes along in this modern age he said he didn't have a job lined up and he's right I believe him Yeah, this was a decision about whether it was right to continue at Bournemouth.

42:28And obviously you sort of need the question, OK, what's wrong with Bournemouth? They've obviously sold a lot of players, a significant number of players. Like last summer, you don't want that kind of open heart surgery to your squad every year. They've replaced quite well. They've got a proven track record of being able to replace quite well. And obviously he's done very well. So is that a fact? No, not really. I understand how the rules work and I don't think there's a ceiling. and I think he just genuinely felt that this is a good three-year cycle and I want to look for my next project now. So I don't know.

42:59Genuinely, I don't know. But as I say, there are going to be vacancies, aren't there? Well, one of them could potentially be at Newcastle. We keep talking about it. Eddie Howe's position in this mad season that Newcastle United are having despite having Champions League action. Earlier in their campaign, they're on a terrible run of form. They've lost eight of their last 11 Premier League games with only Tottenham losing more games in the competition in 2026. I mean, anyone see changes at Newcastle, Gregor? I mean, or pick up on the Araiola point where you'd like to see him go, where do you think he could fit in best?

43:28It's hard to see where Araiola fits in. I mean, part of it is because, as Pete's kind of outlined there, you feel like there's more than just, in Araiola's sort of viewpoint, than just like taking the next step up the ladder. I don't think he wants to see somewhere that's going to be a good environment for him to be a success. And you look around a lot of Premier League clubs that are going on vacancies, and he might not see that with Eddie Howe like well we consistently say I think Newcastle will be mad to part of the company with Eddie Howe we consistently say that the fans are now starting to see it differently and like not just a few there's not just a few dissenting voices you hear it now at games like the boos and the the upset with with the way that Newcastle are playing and how they just don't look like the same team like you look at the underlying data and they're still they're still working hard I mean there was that question point that question that in martin hardy's report where he was saying like you said that the the kind of the fire is still within you to you know every day to to try and make this team better do you think that's reflected in the players and he took seven seconds to answer the question which is quite telling and he said well i'm not you know it's difficult to speak on behalf of other people but i think it is yes and all the underlying data and stuff suggests that they are still working really hard for him but it's just not clicking and it's not they've missed big players like Bruno and all the signings we keep coming back to none of them really have, maybe Malik Thiot at the back he's had a few FA games but he's been pretty good on the whole but otherwise Alanga, Wissa Voltamada, even Jacob Ramsey who I think is a really good player in any other circumstances Villa wouldn't want to sell him, it's not happened for him there so it's been a disastrous window in terms of recruitment and that's fundamentally the reason for Newcastle's malaise yeah very interesting isn't it to think about the point you made Pete about your Iola about oh it's better to leave too soon than to wait too long and then become the guy that's not liked and then you think of Eddie Howe as well in that scenario you don't see many managers waiting to answer that question do you they're usually quite affirmative on that type of question yeah that's a good point I mean being in all these press conferences seven seconds is a long time right guys why is he so he knows he's going to put doubt in by actually with the honesty and transparency.

45:42The question is, why does he want to do that? Or maybe he doesn't. Maybe he genuinely doesn't know the answer to the question. Maybe, or maybe he was just being so honest at the time. But you don't see it. Maybe he's just considering his response. On the reaction maybe from his players. Because if you come out and say that, I don't think they're working hard, you're hoping you get a reaction from that. But it can work the other way. And he's also, he's had to be a politician in the last year too, because of all the change above him. And, you know, clearly there was a disconnect between what he wanted to happen last summer in terms of the recruitment and what actually happened.

46:11And a lot of that was to do with the Isak saga. A lot of that was to do with who was going to replace him. And it was very difficult. And he kind of, without wanting to criticise the way the club has been run around him, like he kind of had to, you know, tiptoe around that issue. It's not all his fault. Because you're going to have three players at least who are probably going to want to be out the door. Yeah, absolutely. So they have to decide, is he the one who's going to kind of do the recruitment to replace the three or maybe more? Yeah, well, big questions for Newcastle. Newcastle fans, get in touch with me with your thoughts on Eddie Howe's future.

46:46Tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Pete, we'll let you leave to go and speak to Liam Rossini and ask him the important questions. Thank you very much for joining us. Well, chaps, it's just the three of us now, but I wanted to ask next about the Merseyside derby. A really intriguing game, this one. 2-1 Liverpool, Virgil van Dijk winning it for them late on. I wonder if Arnie Slott likes corners now, by the way. seem to become a big part of his game. But speaking about Chelsea earlier, I'm going to talk about Aston Villa in a second. Liverpool look like, despite this very challenging season that they've got Champions League qualifications secured, would we say?

47:16Just a kind of quick one, I think. Absolutely. Yeah, Gary? Yeah, there's no one else going to get it. What do you think? You think it's more about that no one else is going to get it rather than that? I think I probably agree with you. I think there's still things that you see there from Liverpool, you know, finding big moments. Virgil van Dijk, you have to say, amid all of it, still does keep delivering in big moments in these games. It was actually quite nice to see Mo Salah score as well. You know, a traditional Mo Salah goal, left-footed finish and run away. You know, for everything that's happened at Liverpool this season, it'd be actually quite nice if Mo Salah got a nice farewell.

47:47It would. Yeah, I think that would be really important. So yeah, good news for Liverpool fans. Let's talk about Aston Villa though. As I say, an absolute thriller at Villa Park. Gregor Robertson, you were there. Best game you've seen this season? It's right up there. Entertainment-wise? Yeah. and like it was a great it was actually a great game until the the minute of madness arrived in the 86th minute because like Watkins scored after 98 seconds I think and then but Sunderland responded straight away and like any time they had a setback they responded they were always in the game like it even when it went 3-1 right at the very start of the second half Morgan Rodgers made it 3-1 Sunderland were still in the game they were still probing and like they're a really really accomplished team it's extraordinary that Sunderland if they'd won this game would have leapfrogged Chelsea, they have a chance of making Europe as well so there was a lot for them to play for, clearly Aston Villa with the Europa League semi-final coming up want to get the Champions League plays done and dusted and they are tied on 58 points with Manchester United now so it looks like it, they've got a 10 point buffer, looks like that's pretty much done, but my god they did their best to throw it away it was extraordinary and extraordinary for Jadon Sancho as well like he came on in the 80th minute and like Unai Emery you have to say defended him but he got a pass in his own sort of penalty box and was a bit slow to kind of get to it and dallied a little bit and try whom pounced robbed possession, whipped in a great finish 3-2 and then straight from centre he tried to dribble Dribble away And Enzo Lafay Great tackle Pearson passed through the middle For Wilson Isidore Boom Suddenly 3-3 It was like There was just this state of Absolute shock and disbelief Inside Villa Park And Unai Emery was going ballistic On the sidelines And he almost gave it away Well he did give it away again Tancho It was like Deep in the Sunderland half Another kind of Attempt to dribble He's trying to do something But lost the ball And this time Siddiqui I think it was No Diara was cleared through and 1v1 with with martinez and martinez stood up when he tried to dink it and he saved it and it was just thinking why have you tried the other thing i thought about the dink was i wouldn't don't even think it would reach the net anyway yeah it was a poor a poorly executed polite little dink just smash it between his legs four three game of the season what a comeback and instead up the other end and villa win it yeah what a what a ding dong end it was extraordinary yeah like you just you know that that moment when when diara was through like Diarra apologised in the game afterwards.

50:27Le Fais admitted afterwards he kind of came in and said I'm really sorry to everyone because that would have been a huge, huge moment for Sunderland's season as well. I mean you've got to question whether Sunderland are ready to go into Europe having just been promoted from the Championship and done something remarkable already. But as you say, Tammy Abraham popped up got an end of Luca Dini's brilliant cross and all was well, it ended well for Aston Villa. All set to be a fantastic season so far for Aston Villa Champions League qualification and they do have that Europa League semi-final against Nottingham Forest who picked up a brilliant win against Burnley.

51:02It didn't look brilliant all the way through this game but one man really stood out, Morgan Gibbs-White with a hat-trick. A fantastic performance from him in this game, Gregor. There's some games this season where I've watched him in that draw that they got at Manchester City as well. This guy is a big game player to me. I mean, how good do we think he is? How good is Morgan Gibbs-White? he's as good number 10 as there is really in the Premier League I think because he can do a bit of everything the thing I love about him is his kind of competitive spirit as well, he snaps into tackles, if he's playing for a team that really want to press high he can lead the press and he's got that just touch of class as well in those clutch moments and you start with the first goal, his touch was beautiful to control it before finishing his second was a great volley and his third was a brilliantly executed.

51:51The header. He's great. He's really good in the air. He scored a lot of good headers. Even trying the header though. A lot of people might not have even thought I'm going to jump from this far and like point it into that corner. No, he's really good in the air, yeah. And he's in double figures now. He's been a huge player for Forrest in a difficult season. He's got to say, there's been a few moments where, you know, how many times have we seen like the reports about Evangelos Maranakis has consulted a lot of, you know, senior players and about the manager and then a few hours later he's sacked.

52:21He's one of those players. I think he's not being shy to say, we're not feeling it. We're not feeling it. Is that not, you know, this is a guy who could have moved in the summer. Lots of clubs interested in him. Tottenham, of course, was the kind of big one that nearly got done and then he ends up staying. Manchester City as well, Gary. That says everything about how good he is. He's like, no, no, I want to be playing in Europe. I'm this good. Do you think he'll go this summer? I've said all season, I think the chaos that Nottingham Forest they've experienced this season will make a lot of their best players question their futures at the club like even if they go on to win the Europa League and they stay up like that you know that'd be a glorious end to the season to a mad season for them I think they'll look around and say is it ever going to be calm here?

53:04Is it ever going to be kind of you know steady incremental progression? Are we really going to be just straight back to competing for to get into the Champions League as they did in that remarkable season last season? I don't think so and that's because of the man who owns the club so I think he won't be alone in looking around and assessing his options Luke Forrest will play hardball as they did last summer but what do you think would someone have to pay to get him 80 million is he worth that the question is whether his new contract has a release clause isn't it you'd imagine not after last time but I mean what would you would he sign it without them well also none of us also know whether there was a gentleman's agreement done at that point and said look just sign this contract stay free good luck got the gentleman's agreement but why is he signing it apart from the fact obviously some naughties perhaps went on in terms of what information Spurs and other clubs knew about their release scores why is he signing it so a bucket load of money a bucket load of money yeah but there has to be something in his favour apart from I agree I think if he really wants to leave this summer he probably will yeah speaking of the summer as well we should say World Cup places on the line lots of contention around England's number 10 spots I just got some stats from this season comparing Gibbs White with Morgan Rodgers, who's obviously kind of got the shirt at the moment.

54:19They've both played in all competitions, 48 games. Roughly the same number of starts. Gibbs White has actually started fewer games, but has got 15 goals to Morgan Rodgers' 12. Rodgers has more assists, 8-5. Their stats are pretty similar all along the way. Chances created, 67 for Rodgers, 60 for Gibbs White. Morgan Gibbs White, he has to go to the World Cup, in my opinion, if he keeps playing like this. Gregor? it's just a really really competitive congested part of the pitch for England and he's not Phil Foden not in the team I wouldn't take Phil Foden out of form Eze looking struggling of late Tushel likes Eze doesn't he even Morgan Rodgers has gone off the boil of those five players Morgan Gibbs-White is the form player of those five right now I agree not bringing Jude Bellingham into it I'm talking about Premier League players but of those five he's the form player but does he pick form players or does he pick players he knows what he's going to get Would he go for you, Gary?

55:14I'd probably go for Rodgers. And leave Gibbs-White at home? Yeah. Yeah, look, I think Cole Palmer is just probably a level above in terms of his creative spark. Right. And Morgan Rodgers has shown that he can be almost on that level with Palmer. He did that earlier in the season. He's also got a lot of credit in the bank because of his performances for England and that kind of flourish they had just in the last year. and I don't know Gibbs White has been given opportunities and he's never really really grasped grasped one in England's shirt he's not been given many opportunities we have to say that I don't know I don't think I don't think he will go like I think he like totally within his rights to feel very unfortunate not to go and in other eras he would he's a brilliant brilliant player and he's also someone you just feel he would never be overawed by this stage like he would he would relish it yeah and I think he'd be a great substitute I think he'll be someone who would come on an impact game so I'm talking myself into taking him but I don't think he will go Do you think he'll go Tom?

56:18I think he should go I don't think he will, no I think I agree with you all the points you've made I think they will pick the kind of experience I think he would go Watkins as well over some of those forwards but I would absolutely have him in there Watkins over Welbeck I'd have Watkins over Welbeck and I'd probably try and get Gibbs White in somehow because I think as you say Greg a half an hour with him on the pitch he might make something happen I should just say as well for listeners and viewers that I have got him in my fantasy football team. But maybe that's why the Morgan Gibbs white bias is coming in.

56:44Let's just have a very, very quick look at a huge story. Of course, the relegation battle. We're going to come back to this on Thursday because of tonight's massive game, Crystal Palace against West Ham. But it was a draw for Tottenham, a win for Leeds. Leeds' victory taking them to 39 points after 33 games. No team has ever gone on to be relegated from the Premier League after getting 39 plus at this stage of a 38 Premier League campaign. So therefore, are they safe, Gary? I think it's Tottenham and West Ham now is it? It's between Tottenham and West Ham Gregor would you agree? I agree up to a point Forest have a difficult running now and as I say the Europa League semi-final two legs to contend with but I think Leeds are safe Yeah obviously a lot resting on tonight's game about West Ham which is why we've not talked about it as much but Tottenham getting a draw against Brighton but you say that this should have been a win shouldn't it conceding goal just before half time and then right at the very end.

57:38Can you look at Tottenham's pictures, Tom? Which ones do you think they're going to put points in? They've got, what, walls? I'm one of these people, Gary, that has been saying all these weeks they're going to get some points at some point. Tottenham are going to win. You know, they get four points. And then they just, you know, Saturday's game was one where I was like, oh, they're 2-1 up. You know, I was following the game along. It was 2-1 up and they've lost it again. They've dropped the points again. I'm starting to come along to what Greg has been saying for the last couple of weeks. Listen, the reason we've not delved into it is because tonight is huge, isn't it?

58:03Crystal Palace at home to West Ham. That is absolutely massive. But regardless of tonight, Tottenham must beat Wolves. Yeah. I mean, I think of all the games in the running, that's the one that's... That's three points. That should be three points. The other ones... So you're saying if they don't beat Wolves, they're down? I think very difficult. I mean, West Ham's running is not easy either, by the way. So, you know, West Ham have got a tricky running. and the one thing West Ham have got is momentum and the one thing they've got is probably less of a fear factor. I mean, the fear factor is at Tottenham, isn't it?

58:40The nerves. The nerves. How can this happen? Why are we in the relegation zone? West Ham have kind of, you know, they've been there a few times in the last year. It's not as low as this, but under Moyes, they kind of experienced the kind of ways to get out of it. COVID year, they were in the relegation zone before COVID struck and then they got out of it. I think they've got people there who kind of can kind of deal with this. And I think Nuno, he can set them up. Whether they can get enough wins, that's a typical West Ham. We should say we'll probably leave it there, Greg, because this time last week, we talked up Monday's performance of Manchester United against Leeds and then Leeds went and won.

59:18So we shouldn't talk a bit too much. But just a final word from you, Greg, on the relegation scrimm. I mean, I think the thing with Tottenham, this is a bit like the Arsenal conversation, is you're seeing some green shoots out of a really disappointing result. Like, obviously, what's interesting is that De Zerbe has clearly worked with the players now for a few weeks and gone, we have to be on the front foot. And you saw it. You saw energy. You saw total buy-in, high pressing. You saw the stadium responding to that. That was a real positive. and it was clearly a massive gut punch at the end but you saw that it's going to be an exciting way that they're going to try and do this, achieve this.

1:00:03It's a minor miracle now. I think they'll probably need to win three of their five games. It'll be good fun for everyone except the Tottenham fans. As I say, we will come back to the relegation battle after we've had this big game on Monday night on Thursday's show so we'll leave it there for now. Peter Ruxler, Gary Jacob and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll see you then.

1:00:52We'll see you next time. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. We have launched Operation Epic Fury. Stop being a proper country. When everyone says they're right. Who do you believe? None of us knew the depth of that relationship. If the lines are blurred. Can you read between them? The depth of the relationship. When the story breaks. Who brings perspective? The mistake I made. If you want to understand the issues that define our times. It starts with listening. Times Radio. On your smart speaker, on digital radio, or the Times Radio app.