Will Man City's stars leave? And is Bellingham as good as Zidane ?

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1:25Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Manchester City have confirmed their appeal against the guilty verdict for the charges of breaching Premier League financial regulations. What now for the biggest story in football? Will they get a punishment this season or will the saga overshadow a league campaign which restarts this weekend? On today's show, we'll discuss all of that and analyse a spectacular win for England in Croatia as Alex Scott makes a compelling debut. Jude Bellingham gets even better and England fans get excited for the future once again.

1:59We'll also wrap up the rest of the weekend's action and incidents. And joining me, Tom Clark, for all of that, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the former Chelsea, Marseille and Ireland striker Tony Cascarino. Loads and loads to discuss team, but joining us down the line for part one of the show, On the Manchester City latest, we have our chief sports correspondent, Matt Lawton. Matt, thank you very much for being with us. A huge story, as I mentioned, it's developing all the time. Just recap for us, just to start off for listeners, where we've come since the last podcast on Thursday with that appeal being confirmed, as I mentioned, on Friday.

2:35Yeah, so they have indeed, and we always knew they would. They've submitted their appeal. I actually think they probably did it on Thursday. Yeah, they intend to fight this clearly, that they're not backing down the sort of public statements they continue to make, you know, protesting their innocence. Yeah, we have an idea, a story that we wrote earlier in the week, we have an idea of what that appeal is going to be built around, which is this whole question of where the money came from. Was it the owner's money or was it, as they're going to argue, the government's money? We have to remember that Etihad Airways is a state-owned airline.

3:13And in the same way, Turkish Airlines, who sponsor Liverpool, are owned. I think about 50 % of Turkish Airlines is owned by the Turkish government. Qatar Airways, who sponsor Barcelona, they are state-owned. And their case will be that this money was actually from the parent company of Etihad Airways and not from Sheikh Mansour's company. Now, it's important to point out that that evidence has already been dismissed by the Commission, but it will be resubmitted for the appeal. And just in terms of that appeal process, what does it mean in terms of the time that this might now take? Just for listeners who would obviously have been, as all of us, shocked by the outcome, the guilty verdict, what does it mean for the time that this might now take?

4:00The short answer to that is we still don't know, because obviously Richard Masters, the Premier League Chief Executive, when he issued that statement, he talked about, you know, this being a matter of urgency and let's get this thing finished as quickly as possible. Lisa Nandy, the Secretary of State for Sport, has said the same thing. There is a pressure to get it done. No one wants this dragging on much longer. and actually there is a rule that Maen Ziegler alluded to in some of his coverage with me in the Times is that there's this new rule where they want to try and get these appeals done within 12 weeks.

4:37But we all suspect that in the background City's lawyers are saying well hang on a minute one this case predates that rule coming in you know by a number of years as we know and given it did take commissioned 19 months to reach a decision on this, you can quite easily see that they'd be arguing that, well, hang on a minute, we're not getting this done in 12 weeks when it took 19 months to rule on the first one. So simple answer, Tom, we just don't know. And one of the difficult things about covering this story is that actually there's very little briefing going on and it's particularly around those points.

5:16you actually asked the Premier League, can you tell us when's the sanction hearing happening? Is it going to run simultaneously with the appeal hearing? Now, I've always thought that that can't actually be possible because you've got the same set of lawyers. They can't be in two rooms at once unless they sort of do an hour of that and then they do an hour of that. But we don't actually know when the sanctioning is happening and is the appeal hearing going to happen first? We just don't know. You asked the Premier League comms guys and they're very good and they're very helpful, but every time you ask them that, it's, sorry, I can't tell you.

5:50Matt, in terms of talking about that punishment, and we'll come back to the appeal and punishment and just hearing you talk about 12 weeks takes us to the end of the year and the idea that it might take even longer, quite remarkable. What was your reaction to City's appeal from both in what they put out and what we've been told by people in terms of the fact that I think a lot of fans looked at it and thought, well, all you're doing is saying the same thing you've already said to other people. how how is that going to work i'm fascinated by it because i'm fascinated by the situation because if they have got you know as i say we have to remember that that this independent panel has already dismissed this stuff i think they use the word concocted right so it's pretty explosive stuff and they and they accuse the witnesses of you know these government officials of lying uh it you know it's it's a it's an interesting situation it wouldn't be loved to be in the room And, you know, as I understand it, they'll be saying that they've got evidence to support this, that they've got this evidence that Khaldun referred to when he put out that statement, the evidence that Soriano referred to in that video address where he talks about this whole, their whole case being built on one false accusation.

7:02well if that is evidence of bad transactions of actual i don't know bank statements i'm assuming yeah you know because the way i look at it tom is that you know if i was being investigated by hmr city or by the police or whatever for some kind of financial illegality i would assume that if i produced my hsb city bank account documents that they would be accepted as reliable evidence so i don't actually know how this thing works i don't know if there is a particular bank that the government uses and there's these back statements they've printed off and and there you see it 14 million pounds the 12th of november 2014 so etihad's account you know i don't know if it's that simple but if there are documents to support this claim that the money did indeed come from the government and not from abidabi united group which is the parent company this Mansour's company that owns is the para company for Manchester City.

8:03That would seem to me to be quite compelling. But as I say, with all of this, we're kind of living on the sort of scraps and trying to piece this stuff together. You know, we were party to the evidence that was presented in that 12-week hearing back in 2024. You know, it is one of the great frustrations for me, and we've written about this in the past, the fact that these things are private, I think this is another example of why these things should be public. It should be like a court case where you've got a gallery full of journalists, you know, and we're able to report on this stuff and we can actually make a judgment on the evidence for ourselves.

8:44You know, we are kind of slightly operating in the dark here and trying to work out what they've got. But as I say, if they're claiming that they've got evidence And as we understand it, it's evidence that the lady claim proves that the money was from the government. I think it's fascinating how these three different panel judges and they're going to be, you know, say the appeal panel will be different to the commission panel. And they will be selected from retired judges who have operated at the very highest level in our legal system. They will be high court judges. And it'll be fascinating to see how they respond to this evidence, given that you've got to remember as well that this is Lord Panic and Paul Harris, Casey, that are walking in with this stuff.

9:28You assume they believe it's true. There is some hope for fans who are worried that this is going to drag on and the status and reputation of the Premier League in that legal experts say you can't use the appeal process to regurgitate what you've already put forward. that is not allowed. And from what you've explained, unless there's some radical new evidence that for some reason was not already been submitted, it does sound a bit like a regurgitation which is not allowed in an appeal. Well, look, we're not lawyers, but as I understand it, they think they can go back in if they think it's been unfairly dismissed, if they think the commission have made a mistake.

10:11Yeah, but Alison's point is... It's on their ground. I think Alison's point, there is a case that the other side might be true of where their appeal might be dismissed equally as quickly. Would that be fair, Alison? Some legal opinion I've heard has indicated it could be dismissed quite quickly. Yeah. Especially as you've already said, Matt, they've been through this and the evidence they're saying the funding has come from the government, it's been concocted after the event. Because there's a body of evidence that contradicts that, which is the original emails and the leaks. and absolutely absolutely but that as I understand it is the basis of their argument so yeah you Alison you might be right and then they might they might not they might not get much traction for what they're trying to do but if they feel that the if they feel presumably they attack it on the point that they believe the commission has made a has made a fairly fundamental error in dismissing that evidence in the first place yeah Matt you mentioned government a few times we've seen this story moving from the back pages onto the front pages it's always been a huge story but over the weekend, the Sunday Times, the Financial Times, talking about councils, governments, influence within Manchester as a city itself.

11:19That's another part of it to me that intrigues me in terms of the time that this might take. We've all been sat as sports fans and as football fans and as sports journalists waiting for this verdict, waiting for this outcome. And actually, we didn't maybe realise that when it came, the ramifications for the wider world might be such that that would allow it to drag on. Would I be right in maybe having a suspicion that that might be the case. I don't think it makes it drag on, Tom, because I think actually what we saw last week when Andy Burnham sort of made that slightly sort of blundering intervention and then number 10 had to issue a statement sort of slightly retracting what he'd said about his concern around, well, you know, let's not lose these guys.

12:00They've built half of Manchester sort of thing. And I say that as someone that's seen that for myself. You know, I started my national paper career working in an office with Matt Dickinson in Ancoats. And yeah, it was a pretty deprived area and it has been transformed. So I kind of, you know, through the lens of, yeah, Andy Burnham was clearly looking through the lens as the former mayor of Manchester when he made those comments. So I think they were ill-advised. But I think the one thing that told us is that, look, he can't get involved in that and the government can't get involved in that. We are talking about cheating in sport here.

12:39And as a journalist that has spent a lot of my career focused on that part of sport, this process has to be concluded without that kind of interference, for sure. But there is no doubt that the implications of this story go way beyond the borders of the Premier League. This is just such an enormous story because of the relationship that Abizabi has with this country. the investment in this country you know we saw it with qatar as well you know when we were you know when we were writing about the world cup and you know their influence and and their presence here in the uk is is considerable i guess that might be making certain people queasy but as i say i come back to the fact that they can't they can't get involved in in basically um implementing sanctions in what is a sporting sporting issue as i say this is cheating in sport you know we we have to believe that that that is properly regulated and properly dealt with and and that you know if if if this if this whole process does end with with city losing the appeal that the book is thrown at them because it has to be because in the same way you know david walsh was comparing it to lars armstrong at the weekend you know other people have said that to me you know and i actually think that the really interesting comparison with the lars Armstrong case is actually how professional cycling dealt with that, in that they simply decided they didn't have a winner for seven years of the Tour de France.

14:10Yeah, you look at that, you know, going back to 1903, the winners of the Tour de France, there's three points when there's no winner. There's two World Wars and there's Lars Armstrong. Yeah. Matt, I want to ask you a question because, I mean, there's a lot of unknowns here, but because of my experience in Marseille where they were found guilty of match fixing and bribery, which is different from City. But one thing happened at the football club that there was a starting point where they had the sanctions put in place. But over the course of my first year there, lots of things hadn't been resolved and it continued.

14:40And then there was other sanctions put on Marseille afterwards. And then a huge number of players left the football club because obviously Marseille couldn't keep them. Now, loads of people are asking me about where do the players stand in this scenario? Again, is that very much an unknown, whether they'll stay, whether, you know, if Man City can keep them or their agents will look to move them out from the club? It's a good question. And I've said, going back to Alison's point about legal opinion, you know, I've seen different legal opinions on the position that the players would be in. You know, the first weekend after the story broke on that Friday that they'd been found guilty, I contacted one of the top law firms in the city to get legal opinion on whether they could tear up their contracts and leave.

15:27Because, you know, if they got relegated, the Erling Haaland could turn around to City and go, well, we're here because of you. I'm out sort of thing. You know, Real Madrid have agreed to pay my wages. I'm leaving. And the view of that particular lawyer was that, no, it's not that simple that they can't simply tear up their contracts and walk. But since then, Tony, I've seen other legal firms say that, oh, no, no, that they would be in a position where they could turn around to their employers and go, this is on you guys. You know, I'm not playing in the National League. I'm not playing in wherever they end up, you know.

16:05So, yeah, I think that's a fascinating. I think at the moment, when you look at the sort of public statements being made by people like Pep Guardiola, they're all still of your belief. They're all being convinced, at least, persuaded that they're going to win this appeal. You know, that is the mantra. You know, there is no doubt that they are wounded. There is no doubt some of the reporting that we did right at the start of this, the mood of the club on that Friday was one of sort of shock and horror. But clearly the message from the top of the moment is, is stand firm, we're going to win this thing.

16:41And I'm sure that's the message of the players. Now, of course, a lot of them have been away on international duty while this has happened. So it will be fascinating when they all go, and I'm quite sure there'll be TV crews outside the training ground on Wednesday as they all turn up for work again. They'll be trying to convince them to not panic yet, Tony, is I think that will be the mantra, I'm sure. But, Tony, you tell me, how much do you think it will be getting in the heads of the players? Yeah, well, we had meetings with all the people upstairs at Marseille. And over the course of a nine-month period, many times at the training ground, they come in, they told us where we are, and that changed along the way.

17:21So it wasn't like today's this and tomorrow's. It was just something very, very different. And again, so many players. And it could be the biggest penalty of them all if players could exit the football club with no fee because these contracts could be ripped up. So that could be the hardest punishment of all on Manchester City. Yeah. See, I think one of the most fascinating things right now, you know and I read I read you know read a lot over the weekend from different journalists that I really respect and I think it was Jason Burt was right in the Telegraph was writing about how the clubs are a little bit you know not entirely convinced that that that they want to see City sort of smashed to a pulp and you know to the point where they never come back they never return and at the same time I think Johnny Norcroft wrote on our pages about you know this is this is this is the moment that David Cogan and the independent regulator need to stand up and and you know surely what is the point of the regulator if if they you know if they do lose this appeal what is the point of regulator if they don't drive these guys out of of of the club I think it's really interesting is how what do people want here what does the Premier League want here what do the other clubs want here do they want city to be as i say sanctioned to the point where they never come back that the owners leave that they whether they pick up their ball and go home or are ejected by the independent regulator do you end up with another sheffield wednesday is that what people want i think it's a fascinating balance that possibly people are trying to strike here in terms you know because at the end of the day the premier league will make a recommendation in this sanction here to what they want the sanction to be.

19:06Yeah. Yeah, their legal team will. And I think that's one of the most interesting aspects of this whole story is Mark Ziegs has talked a lot about it, hasn't he? He keeps speculating that it will be a massive points deduction that means that they can't, even if they win every game, that they can't survive. Yeah. What would your instinct be then, Matt? Because that is the big topic that fans ultimately come back to all the time, both fans of Manchester City and of all the other clubs. anywhere in the pyramid? What's your instinct? With so many unknowables, as we said, but as a man who's worked these stories.

19:39The problem is, Tom, it really depends who you speak to. I had somebody from one of the big clubs last week go, mate, they're going to get kicked out of the league. They're going to get expelled. Now, as we know, that requires a vote, right? Yeah. That requires 15 clubs to go kick them out, put them in the National League. My sense, even among the four clubs that have put this marker down so they can go after compensation, I don't get the sense from them that there's this kind of massive desire to absolutely kill them. Right. What would not absolutely killing them be then? What are we talking about?

20:13So many of the guys last week talked about... 60 point deduction. 60 point. So they can't survive. Right. So they get relegated to the championship. Just a one-off though, as in one this season. Because Tom Allnott, I think on previous shows, talked about continual incremental points deductions every season. I saw that. I saw that. Yeah, so that they just can't win the league for 10 years or whatever. Yeah, that's an option. As I say, we just don't know. Honestly, I don't know. But I think, because I do think, it comes back to Tony's point, I think if you do expel them and they have to, like Rangers, they have to come back in multiple leads down, I think that's the end, right?

20:51I think that's the end. The end of City or the end of the Premier League? Yeah, the end of the club as we know it now, because the players won't stick around for that. You might be able to persuade the majority of them to do one season in the championship. There's no way they stick around and, as I say, playing down the road at Altrium. My gut is, I'm with Ziggs on this, my gut is massive points deduction, massive fine. I think the really interesting bit is whether they keep the titles or not. Yeah, I know just finally on that gut instinct, because it has to be, do you think we'd see that this season?

21:28whatever the punishment will be do you think we'll see that I actually do I do I think it's done before the end of the season but I don't think it's done before Christmas really interesting Matt Lawton as you mentioned there loads of strands to keep investigating we'll let you go back to reporting on this massive story you can read the latest from Matt and Martin Ziegler and the rest of the Times team on the Times website and in the Times print pages too Matt thank you very much for joining us well loads to unpick we are going to get to England 7 Croatia 0 listeners and viewers I promise but loads and loads to unpick from this one Alison, Matt made so many points there.

21:58Great questions from both of you. What's your overriding reaction and feeling now as we sit here on Monday? You know, we've been kind of 10 days on from story breaking. Yeah, I mean, my feeling is what does this mean for the reputation of the Premier League? Are we going to have a situation where teams have played City when they've been completely acting as normal and playing very well and everyone's been, you know, a normal, high-achieving team in the first part of the season, before the first international break? Do we then have teams who are facing City in a state of limbo, where they still have all their expensive players, but they may or may not be feeling discombobulated?

22:36As in in the next month, for example, before the next international break? And then do we have a set of teams playing at City when they've lost their appeal and they know they're not going to be able to, whatever day they do this season, they can't possibly win the league or qualify for the Champions League? or do we have a certain number of clubs who play City when they're against the odds, it seems, have won their appeal? Matt talked about it's interesting whether City keep their titles. Whoever wins the league this season will have an asterisk next to it because it's in the most ridiculous circumstances.

23:09Yeah, and it could well be City if the appeal is not sorted and the punishment could be the farcical situation. Tony, lots of points made about players. I just wanted to come to it and can do this in kind of quick fire. This will have undoubtedly been hanging over this entirely. If you're a City player, and I was watching the Portugal-Norway game, fascinating moment at the end of Diaz and Haaland doing that. I know every player covers their mouths these days, but you'd imagine going, I'm not playing in League Two. This will have been in their minds the entire time, won't it? Absolutely. And they'd have been on to their agents and they'd have been given information whether that's true or not.

23:43They'll be in a really vague period for them because I, and this isn't as big, this is way bigger than Marseille. And Marseille were demoted twice because a lot of people didn't know that. We went down once and then when we got relegated, even though we got promoted, we stayed in that division. So there are, look, they played Liverpool this weekend. You can imagine what the atmosphere is going to be like, what the chants are going to be like. Oh, could you, honestly? No, it's just incredibly, the only thing I really feel bad about this, and maybe I'm a bias because of Marseille and what happened with them, that some of the brilliant teams that were put together, the recruitment team who had no idea what was going on upstairs, the players that joined the club who would have had no idea as well, and they put these teams together.

24:29And yes, I understand they used certain finance to entice these players to come, but the brilliance that we've seen on the pitch is going to mean nothing now. Yeah, and that upsets you. Do you think you can still enjoy the brilliance? Well, no, I'm not going to ignore the brilliance because I'm a little bit where Rodri said of what they'd done on the pitch, the football pitch, and how they played. Loads of clubs have spent lots and lots of money, and City have been up there with the very best of spending. But also, we're forgetting how great teams were put together by people that, for me, would have been absolutely, had no idea what was going on.

25:03Two quick questions for you that I saw in my time off amongst former players. One about the City players from this period who won all these medals. Some suggestions from former pros, I'd be getting rid of them put them in the bin what would your reaction to that be if you'd been in a team because you were at Marseille whilst the scandal was happening you weren't there when it had happened I'm not throwing them in the bin there weren't enough to throw anything in the bin but I'm not throwing them in the bin it still would no not at all it would still mean to you for having done it it meant a lot Alison's piece at the weekend about Aguero and that great goal and that moment I don't think Aguero would just say well that don't exist no more that's gone well you mentioned that brilliantly we're going to come on to that in the next point But then the follow-up, just to finish, on the kind of playing side, what about the players who finished second to this City team in this period?

25:49If you were a player like that and there have been plenty, you've come out and said, I want my medals, I want my Premier League medal, I want my FA Cup winner's medal, where would you stand on that? I would stand, played against Manchester United in the FA Cup final, and if they did wrongdoings, which they didn't at that particular time, they beat us 4-0 on the day. And for me, I don't want to accept an FA Cup winner's medal because of... So that's a hypothetical. But that's exactly where City are. I wouldn't be okay with being second and saying, now we lost on the football field. We lost them football matches.

26:20If they were the winners, I wouldn't be comfortable with that. It's impossible to calculate. Stoke City, for example, if they hadn't played Man City, would have played Manchester United in that final. And the odds are Manchester United would have won that final. So they wouldn't have been FA Cup winners. This is not like, Tom, this is not like a 100 metres final where it's the individual and Ben Johnson and he takes off Carl Lewis. This isn't like that. This is way more complex. And they're teams that have played against each other. Yeah. Well, Alison, just to finish then on your column in the Sunday Times, one of a number of excellent pieces in the Sunday Times, Matt mentioned David Walsh's piece, which I thought was really interesting, talking about the Lance Armstrong comparison and this City doubling down on, no, no, you just haven't heard us right.

27:01You haven't read our excuses properly. David Walsh saying, what I see now is City's owners and executives playing the role that Lance Armstrong did back then, feeling that you've told a story for so long you've got to keep telling it. A really interesting piece from him. Johnny Northcroft, as Matt said as well, talking about the regulator, that if this isn't the purpose for the football regulator to step in and involve themselves in this scenario, then quite frankly, they're not fit for purpose. But Alison, your point about one of the most emotive, maybe the most emotive and exciting finishes to a Premier League season ever, the Sergio Aguero moment, you now believe is the most tainted game in Premier League history.

27:35Because it was the greatest game in Premier League history, I think QPR losing 3-2 at Manchester City. And let's not forget, QPR thought they needed to at least draw to stay up. The Man United game finished first, so City had to win to win the title. I mean, these things are, you wouldn't make them up. It is, I think, indisputably the greatest Premier League game ever with the greatest piece of commentary ever. Yes. And all the way through, it's Martin Tyler's greatest ever match. He just completely captured it. Is it possible now, was my question, Is it possible to recap that game, go through the highlights, think about it, think about the players who were there, how they were bought?

28:14They were bought with dirty money, allegedly. Well, that's what the commissioner said, you know, sham contracts. Can you now listen to that strangulated, wonderful Aguero moment and not think that is tainted? And you can't. I can still see, like Tony was alluding to, you can still see the brilliance of the player. The players do not stop being brilliant, but the emotion of it is sullied. It's like when you, I mean, I likened it to standing in front of a Paul Gauguin painting in an art gallery. He's the most arresting artist, but he had a terrible private life. And you can't help but think that at the same time as you watch it.

28:55And so you're better off not looking at it. It's the same with the Aguero goal. Instead of giving you pure pleasure, and I think it gave pleasure to people who were not City fans. It was a standalone, marvellous moment in football. Now you know he was only at City because of sham contracts. And so then, because Matt made an interesting point when he talked about that listing of the Tour de France and what they do with the titles and things. What's both your view, just to kind of wrap us up on that aspect of it? There's so many strands, so many opinions from fans on what should happen. But those titles, what's your view on when the punishment is decided?

29:32Should they be stripped of titles? Should we have a big, long list of Premier League winners? with a big load of gaps where Manchester City were? I think it's different from Lance Armstrong, and I just touched on why, because it's an individual thing. As in his was an individual? Yeah, and he got stripped because of an individual sport, where this is involving a lot of people who had absolutely no idea, in my opinion, of what was going on at the football club. They don't know they signed sham contracts, or all they would have been confronted with, this is what we're offering, you're probably delighted to go.

30:02A lot of money. They got paid, yeah, we're getting loads of money. I think it's very different in that respect. I don't think you can make the declaration and let's assume that City lose the appeal and then you say definitively their success was all built on breaking the rules and sham contracts and then say they can still be awarded the titles. I wouldn't give them to anyone else because of the butterfly. You'd blank. I know what Alison said. I wouldn't want it to be taken away. Right. But there is that middle ground of, well, no one's got them. No one will win us that year. That feels really hard one to take as well.

30:42Do you know what I mean? Hard to take if you're a city player, obviously. But what about for all the others? I don't think the players of other clubs, maybe some will. I mean, we all have different ideas on this. I don't think they'll be, okay, we're champions then and all this. I just, then you go down the road of legal and then bonuses and all the money. Because that can happen to Marseille. we all got emboldened bonuses for staying up and the lads were like well do we get our money and we did get promoted absolutely you know it gets very very complex the strands are absolutely endless and we'll keep reporting on them on the Times website and on this podcast as well Manchester City fans I would love to hear from you with your views on this story tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk we're going to keep podcasting about it we're going to keep writing about it we want to hear what you've got to say and what you think about it as mentioned the Premier League is back this weekend we're going to be keeping eyes on training grounds and players returning.

31:35The big game is, of course, Liverpool against Manchester City, but there are a few other clubs in action as well. So I just thought to wrap up part one, just a quick mention for a game or a player away from Manchester City that you're looking forward to this weekend. I'll start us off. Coventry against Newcastle on Monday night, with a game probably no one's thinking about other than Coventry and Newcastle fans, but Coventry got their first Premier League win before the international break. They've got a home game on Monday night. And as someone who grew up in the 90s, Coventry Newcastle just has a feel of like that first era of the Premier League when I was falling in love with football.

32:06So I'm very excited to see whether Coventry can follow it up. Guys, what about you? What about elsewhere in the Premier League? I'm really excited to see if this is Brighton's year. Because they ended the international break with a fantastic performance against Arsenal. They look like a team where everything is clicked. But the problem with Brighton has been, we've been here before with them, where they've hit the heights and then they sink. and then they hit the heights again and then they sink. So at some point, if you believe that they're a well-run club, and I think we all do, and they've got faith in a very good young manager, did that win signify a new era for them almost, where they will break into the top four?

32:47Wow. And, you know, so I'm looking forward to it. I mean, it's a way at Sunderland. And the old Brighton would probably draw to all that. You know, can they lift their game for the less glamorous, occasions. It's just compelling whether this is their moment. Arsenal because of what happened to Brighton playing Leeds. Daniel Farker would probably watch that game 10 times after getting beat by Brighton and thinking, yeah, we can do a number on them. We can get a result at the Emirates. So I'm looking forward to that. And Arsenal's reaction to that defeat because that would have shocked them. Not only the manager, the fans would have been in disbelief about what they witnessed on the day because it wasn't a 3-0 and, you know, Brighton got lucky.

33:29No. This was a 3-0 that was just one-way traffic and could have been more. Yeah, absolutely. A bit of early pressure on the Premier League champions. Alison, you mentioned Brighton there. They're the subject of the quiz questions. Take us into a little break. Brighton are the first club since Bournemouth in January 2025 to win all three Premier League monthly awards in the same month. Fabian Hertz, the winning manager of the month. Pascal Gross, the player. And Lewis Dunk with the goal of the month. But can you put those individuals in order, oldest to youngest? Find out. after the break.

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35:34welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times i'm tom clark and i'm with Tony Cascarino and Alison Rudd. Delighted to say both of them got the correct answer to the quiz question. I asked to put Brighton's Stars of the Month in order age oldest to youngest. And we've got Pascal Gross at 35, Lewis Dung at 34, and Fabian Herzler, the youngest of the three. 33 years old, capping a brilliant month for Brighton. As Alison said, we'll see if they can keep that form going against Sunderland. Let's talk about some actual football, shall we? And there's quite a lot of actual football to talk about.

36:08It was a magnificent win for Thomas Tuchel at England, the England head coach describing it as his best performance, and not surprisingly so. 7-0, they recorded their biggest victory since June 2023. That was 7-0 against North Macedonia, Croatia's heaviest defeat. Absolutely loads and loads to talk about, loads of strands. James Gearbrandt was part of the reporting team who were there for us. We had hoped to have him in the studio, but unfortunately he missed his flight to make it back. But he did write a brilliant piece of analysis on the fantastic Jude Bellingham, and he sent us a little bit of a note to describe just why he loves the Real Madrid star.

36:41Yes, so I mean, I've probably been going to football matches for the Times for about 10 years now and I would say that Jude Bellingham performance against Croatia, one of the best, if not the best individual performance I've seen, not just in an England game, in any game. what was so amazing about it was it was an astonishingly complete all-round performance so he for example to put it in context he created eight chances which was something that's only happened six times in the last two years of premier league football in like nearly eight games but he also scored and he also had the most touches of anyone else on the pitch and he also completed the most dribbles and uh contested the most jewels of any england player it was just a phenomenal all-round performance and bellingham is is such he's becoming such an interesting player because he's sort of he's now playing in that kind of high 10 role where he's sort of he's almost playing up top with harry kane at times in in a very sort of advanced number 10 position he's almost kind of a nine and a half he's a nine and a half who's also kind of like running the game just a kind of remarkable combination and i think that's what made me kind of reach for the the Zidane comparison that and also that rare combination of being that incredible kind of physical strength and ability to like never be never be shrugged off in a duel um you know always always be balanced and and in the duel but but also as well as that strength and this ability to produce incredible moments of grace and finesse imagination again that that to me also feels very Zidane-like.

38:29It was a wonderful performance and although that comparison may seem hyperbolic, that's why I found myself thinking of Zidane. Well, Tony, there we have it. James describing Jude Bellingham as like Zinedine Zidane. It's a brilliant piece. You can read it on the Times website now. Tony, you've played against and with a young Zinedine Zidane. Your reaction to James' description there? James said some people might find it hyperbolic. Do you think it's fair? No, I think it's a very fair comparison. Zidane, I was lucky enough to play alongside and weave in a testimonial, which is crazy. I looked back and pinched myself for that one.

39:06I'm going to ask you about that in a minute. I know, I know. The early Zidane, I remember making phone calls back to England because obviously it wasn't the sort of communication skills of what we have today. Didn't have social media clips. Well, Andy Townsend was at Middlesbrough and I mentioned him about a couple of French players and it was before 96 Euros where I played against him at Bordeaux and I was astonished how he glided across the pitch with ease and quick and how big he was. Because he's like Jude. He's big and there's an elegance to his game. His skills of, you know, the ability to run into the opponent's 18-yard box and be comfortable.

39:45Jude's got that. You know, that is a skill in itself because there's some players that get into the box. Frank Lampard had it. You know, what he could do when he made a run in the box, He could keep calm. He could pick his spot and he could get a goal. And that's what I really think the comparison comes from because Jude's got great athleticism. He's decent enough in the air. He can fill in, obviously, for Harry Kane, if need be. The connections between players was telepathic. You saw from Anthony Gordon to Saka to Kane. Bellingham had an influence on all of them three players, of Harry connected with them.

40:21So, yeah, there's... I mean, he's only 23. He's only 23 years old, which is, you know, a still relatively young man. And he seems to have an incredible confidence now. I think he's really enjoying being, you know, that hey Jude, that guy. He just seems to, he's so comfortable. It feels such a long way away from, you know, the criticism that was aimed from sort of Tuchel with involving the type of player that Jude is. I think what we're seeing now is, and probably, you know, during the World Cup, I mean, I thought Jude had an amazing World Cup. I think, you know, the 6-4 win against France and coming third and people might say, well, the French didn't want to really have any interest in that particular game.

41:04I think it's a bit unfair on England because England are now quite clearly a free-scoring team. Yeah. And that's the massive difference and Jude is a big part of that. Yeah, we'll come on to that free-scoring in just a second. But Alison, just on James' comparisons and his analysis of Bellingham, there's a really powerful paragraph that I just wanted to read here. There's something else I detect in Bellingham, a kind of healthy impatience. He plays like there's no time to waste. He won't wait for Mark Graehy to win the ball back in possession if he can make a tackle himself. His attitude, once seen as potentially troublesome, now feels like a catalyst for this England team.

41:35To imagine what he may yet achieve is all part of the fun. But one of Bellingham's best qualities is this. He seems much less interested in what he can be in the future than what he can do right now. And it does have that feeling, doesn't it, of when you're watching Harry Kane hand him the armband and him winning these Man of the Matches. this is the guy that maybe, maybe, dare I say it, before we get into the analysis of this brilliant performance, might be the guy that just drags England over the line in these moments. This is a transitional moment for English football, I think, because it's not very English to have someone like Jude Bellingham who takes the game by the scruff of the neck and who would be very comfortable to be seen as England's leading man and have that strut and arrogance.

42:15We don't like arrogance. We don't like strutting. And England have not been a team, because we're a big nation, we're not that sort of team that has one standout player. I mean, really, because we just played Croatian, and one of the reasons they were rubbish is the persisting Luka Modric. But there was a point where you saw Croatia and you saw one player only. You saw Luka Modric. There are teams where there is this standout performer who embodies the national characteristics and dictates the tempo of the play. and you know if they have a good game, they're more likely not going to win. It hinges on them.

42:50And we seem to be heading to what, given how, I can't quite believe how young Belling, to be quite honest, because he has the demeanour of a 32-year-old, let's face it. You know, there's a fine line between arrogance and I think Tuchel was aware of that initially when he took over, being seen to be, and James talks about his impatience. That can be destructive sometimes. If it is Mark Gaye's job to do something, let him do it. You generally can't win a game of football if one player is so impatient that they're out of position because they see the ball and they think, well, I'm getting involved there.

43:27Where in fact, they're not supposed to be getting involved in that sector of the pitch. You've got to keep some structure. There's a fine line between arrogance and dominance, let's say. if the mood and the vibe of this 7-0 win can be maintained it seemed to me that the other England players really bought into Bellingham's role that's the key to it all isn't it that they're joyful for him and they feel privileged to play against him Alex Scott was saying afterwards wow wow wow to see him up close to train with him see him in action to have him as a teammate is such a privilege and if they all buy into that and think when he's playing.

44:08It gives you that magic thing that England haven't had to win a tournament, which is, oh, we've got a fully functioning fit, Jubang, and we can do it. But there's so many strands that you picked up there, but I wanted to come back to that idea with the joy as well, because you can see it with his relationship with Harry Kane, can't you? Something we talked about in the World Cup, them celebrating together. I love that in the World Cup. They're doing each other's celebrations. That feels part of that bonding, doesn't it, with this team. And Tony, you talked about free scoring England as well. Just a few more stats from this game.

44:37Harry Kane is the first player to score 10-plus goals in three different calendar years for England. He's got 11 this year, 16 in 2021, 12 in 2019. England had four different players score in the first half for the first time since March 2013. They equalled their longest ever winning away run from home, nine victories in 1965 to 67. Elliot Anderson making his 20th appearance for England, only 392 days after his debut, the quickest a player had done that before was Chris Waddell in 453. All these stats suggest that this is a team that kind of is, as much as the disappointment of that World Cup semi-final second half against Argentina, which we don't need to go into, Tony, you mentioned free scoring, dangerous team.

45:19No one's going to want, not many teams are going to want to play England. No, but they have to adopt their style that was being played. Yeah. You know. Have to see this through. Well, yeah, you have to. If you've got that much ability in your forward line, absolutely exploit it with the opposition. Because I don't know many defensive teams. I, at the moment, think England are the second best team in the world. I think, obviously, Spain would be number one. And I look at them and I think, wow, that is a scary... You know, I remember watching YouTube about Waddle and playing against them sort of players and Dazza and all them.

45:49They were wonderful players. But this team has got more goals than I've ever seen any England team have in their locker. They just have. I mean, also, you talked about whether it's arrogance with Bellinger. You've got the captain who's at Bayern Munich who's so humble. Yeah, yeah. You know, what a joy that you've got a guy who's really humble. Isn't like, well, you know, you get the forward line and you think, oh, there's too many of them that are a bit arrogant. They haven't got that. They've got one player that is, I'd say, extremely confident. Yeah, and rightly so. Yeah, and a reason. You're playing at Real Madrid at a very young age.

46:22That's a good reason to be arrogant. But I think it bounces well off others. Yeah. You know, just looking and watching them. Well, Anthony Gordian is another one that you see where people are going, well, boom in a minute, Barcelona have paid how much? And then you're watching them going, ah, no, this makes sense now. Think of the four teams they play for. Arsenal, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid and Barcelona. That's the forward line. Pretty talented forward line. Tony's totally spot on to bring Spain into the conversation. Because if that Nations League defeat to Spain a couple of weeks ago had been the World Cup final, everyone would have been saying, oh, how naive were England.

46:58and how naive was Thomas Tuchel in the way he managed that game. The question is, does England now go on this trajectory where they have faith in their attacking ability so that the next time they meet Spain, when it really does matter, they can play the same way but will have improved and have self-belief that's moved on incrementally so that they can play the way they played in that Nations League game and win the game? Do they have to be deferential the next time they meet Spain and think, well, we have to be quite defensive here? That's the key. Well, thankfully, we'll find out. 15th of November, they play in Spain in the last match in the Nations League.

47:39You're not fully bought. I've really bought into the Nations League. I still think that gives you a pass because it's only the Nations League. Really? I really was with Johnny's piece from last week about how it's really brilliant. And maybe it's because I was on holiday and watching games and being able to relax. but I've seen some brilliant football in the last two weeks, really competitive games. Norway-Portugal was a really interesting, entertaining game. I think it could be fantastic. And I really hope, to your point, that England go into that game almost, I think it's well suited now that because they lost that first game, to have nothing to lose.

48:12Surely, we talk about narrative arcs and PR side of things, they've got nothing to lose by going for that game and losing 4-2 this time, but at least going for it rather than couching it, surely. Yeah, because weirdly, everyone's saying this is the way we want to see England lose. I mean, that's odd. Yes, quite. We talked about that front line. Behind them, Elliot Anderson looking continually absolutely vital for England, but no Declan Rice. But in stepped Alex Scott, Alison, with a masterful debut. Bournemouth fans will tell you that he is their favourite player and has been for a while because he is so calm.

48:47His decision making is spot on. Energy is fantastic. You can't be in that Bournemouth team without energy. That's a prerequisite. But it's his ability to read his teammates' movement, to do the boring stuff well, always with an eye on the pass. He swivels beautifully in the middle there. He's got a very good awareness positionally of where opponents are and his teammates are. He's a complete midfielder. Calling him international calibre is now proven, I think. I know it's not many minutes perhaps, but I think to not be overawed. I mean, it was lovely that afterwards he was so complimentary of his teammates, but he wasn't on the pitch overawed by them at all.

49:28So I think midfield-wise, England have a lot to be excited about. A couple of wonderful passes he played in the game. The only thing, being really harsh, is that he was up against a Finnish Modric and Kovacic who just looked like he couldn't get around the pitch as well. Well, I wanted to ask you about that, Tony. I mean, Alex Scott, it turns out, does look like he maybe picked up an injury or maybe played with an injury. We were hearing just before we started recording this, so hopefully it's not too serious for Bournemouth fans after this international break. But Tony, your column this weekend talking about Luka Modric and watching this game and thinking about a topic that you and Gregor have talked about on this podcast before, knowing when to quit and walk away.

50:08That is a fantastic topic in general this weekend and this international break. You've got the Cristiano Ronaldo situation and saga. George Jesus, the Portugal manager, saying, look, he can come back this morning, just before we came on air. Some quotes coming out, which is remarkable. Robert Lewandowski scoring a hat-trick at 38, but then got Edin Dzeko retiring for Bosnia age 40. Just tell us a little bit about having played the game at the very highest level, knowing when to walk away. Yeah, I know I've got no divine right to tell anybody when they should retire. No. But there's something, I immediately thought of Kevin Moran, who's played to his late 30s for Blackburn and he was a Manchester United striker, won the All-Ireland twice.

50:50And Kevin always said to me, when I got to 34, 35, play as long as you can. Play as long as you can. A lot of it was based on money as well because you could get, obviously you continue your career, you can get good money and the game was changing. I'm thinking, why? I mean, I had this conversation we did a piece in the summer about Ronaldo playing and clearly not the player he was. and I look at Modric and I think well he's Ronaldo of Croatian football he's the greatest star they've ever got and watching him come off and slump in the on the dugout I'm thinking why would Luka Modric keep going he's been an unbelievable player do you think there's a slight difference with the Ronaldo scenario of where Portugal actually look better without him yeah they do that Croatia would look well we don't know even worse well yeah I mean in a nice way they had that hugely successful team got to World Cup semi-finals a team that was feared by the end once they'd established themselves they were misunderstood I think maybe and then feared but you're still looking at that line-up with Modric and Kovacic next to each other Perisic on the wing at 37 Perisic at the wing back like you know is there a case of maybe Slavin Bilic has come in and gone please stay because you know you had that in your career didn't you in Ireland where they were wanting you to keep going Andy Townsend we played we played Belgium just before the 98 World Cup it was a knockout qualifier and we'd played home we drew them and then we had to go to Belgium when we lost the game.

52:11And Andy came in. I think Andy was about 35, 36 maybe. And he came in and came on the bus next to me. Now, bearing in mind I knew Andy since we were kids in the same team. And he sat down and went, that's me done. And I went, this is literally on the bus after the game. And I went, what do you mean he's done? He went, no, that's me done. He was captain. And I look back and I think, fair play to you for calling your own career up. I've done my bit. He carried on playing club football. But I look at Modric and I think, you are that great. You don't have to prove anything to anybody. But when Bellamy skipped past him for the goal, I think it was Saka, the fourth goal.

52:49Bellingham, sorry. Bellamy skipped past him. Sorry, Bellamy skipped past him. And I thought, Luka Modric wouldn't have been like that. No one of you would have gone past Modric like that. And that always stays with me, that great players deserve the right to go, I'm going to retire myself. No one's going to retire me. You know, you've seen the embarrassment around Ronaldo. I wouldn't want Luka Modric and Slavin Bilic having to, I'm going to take him out and maybe not play. I just feel he doesn't deserve that. He's that good. No, no. Really interesting. And a couple of other good moments for people under pressure.

53:22John McGinn, some suggestions. Alison, you'd just joined the John McGinn fan club only a couple of weeks ago. Some suggestions amongst Scottish journalists that his performances for Scotland hadn't quite been what they needed. He scored in their win against North Macedonia. Just to wrap up then, it was a very exciting international couple of weeks. I wrote a football newsletter for the Times saying this is going to be the exciting international way. I didn't know the Man City news was coming. But, Alison, other moments? We had the Alison Rudd derby. Denmark, Norway. That must have been a difficult watch for you.

53:51Any other moments that really caught your eye? I'm afraid I don't buy into the Nations League. You've not got it? No, I'm not. Right, cut it there then, everyone. One thing I'll give it is the calibre of friendly is better. It's better, isn't it? You get a better calibre of friendly, but I do not care. And I defy any football fan to care in their heart, you know, passionately. I defy that anyone cried over a goal or a result because it was the Nations League. Well, there you go. Get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk, if you cried or if you care about the Nations League. Wasn't that the lovely thing about the Croatia game?

54:30With all them 6 ,000 children, none of them are crying. And they're 7-0 down and they've all got big smiles in their cameras. That was a great moment. I did enjoy Johnny Northcroft reporting about their banner. You know, it's not coming home. And then halfway through the second half, I think they've put the banner away in the Times live file. Really interesting. One moment that I did enjoy, Alison, that I think you might be able to get on board with. Brentford's Michael Coyote scoring for Italy on his debut. If you've not seen it. That is beautiful. It's a lovely team move by the Italians. looking like they might, might, just under Roberto Mancini, get back and get into tournaments.

55:01That would be a nice thing, wouldn't it? At least if we could see Italy back at it. Loads more still to come this week and loads more still to talk about, but we'll leave it there. Tony Cascarino and Alison Rudd, thank you very much for being with me in the studio. Thanks to Matt Lawton and James Gearbrand for their insights too. And thank you, as always, for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. We'll see you then.