Will Postecoglou work at Forest and should England drop Bellingham?

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1:16Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. We are back. So are England and so is Ange Postacoglu. Honestly, who says international breaks are dull, eh? England and Thomas Tuchel finally showed what they can do with a 5-0 win in Serbia and Evangelos Maranakis showed what he often does by sacking a manager. Nuno Espirito Santo out at Nottingham Forest but replaced by the returning Postacoglu back in the Premier League just months after winning the Europa League with Tottenham. On today's show we'll discuss all of that and loads more including the return of league action this weekend.

1:51I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the football correspondent for the Sunday Times and Football Journalist of the Year Johnny Northcroft and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is in the studio with us too and down the line we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Martin. Samuel, Johnny, Martin, you were both out there in Serbia for the beginning of the Thomas Tuchel era. Finally, we are off and running. Myself, Gregor and Kit slightly disparaging on Monday. I was starting the Sir Gareth back bandwagon. We had listener Sam get in touch with me on Tuesday to say, well done, Tom.

2:25You lasted 17 minutes before you started harping on about Sir Gareth, but no more. We don't need to anymore. Johnny, Thomas Tuchel is off and running. Gareth who? Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Gareth is probably raising a wry smile because he'd been on the England hype train for all those years and now Thomas Tuchel's on it. But it was that step change performance. It's always impressive when someone under pressure delivers what they tell you they're going to deliver because in our industry we get a lot of hot air from coaches and players sometimes and their actions don't always live up to their words.

3:02But it did for England. And this was what Tuchel promised that he's been building towards. And he didn't, that never seemed an empty promise because it was always clear that England hadn't played a team that was going to come out in any way, give them space to attack. A better team. Maybe even hadn't played a game where there was any real jeopardy. So, you know, you go into those games in a different state. And the reaction was exactly what you want to see of a team that wants to contend at the World Cup. The way they handled the big occasion, the tactical elements of how they unpicked Serbia.

3:37I think you could see some Thomas Tuchel football that we've witnessed down the years. And my biggest puzzle had been, where is it? You know, where is this guy? I know how good he is, but where is this guy? We hadn't felt like a Thomas Tuchel team, really. Albeit that you could see traits. I thought the Andorra game, Villa Park. I mean, dear old Hamza had the screen grabs out was showing me the improved build-up structures and stuff. And you could see the traits, but it hadn't really come together. It did in Belgrade. I thought the second goal was the signature goal, and Tuchel was, I spoke to him afterwards, as he left the stadium, he was purring about the goal.

4:18And it was, if you go back and watch it, and you watch Chelsea's Champions League final goal against Manchester City, you'll see a lot of similarities. Deep build-up, working the ball into an overload, bringing it back in the middle and then a direct pass down the middle of the pitch to release some pace and a one-on-one finish and that is the sort of hybrid I think that Tuchel's made a success of in his career that kind of, the positional play Prince Spolsky's a big Guardiola fan of a good build-up structure but then exploding into something that's a bit more Kloppian let's say because that's his background that ability to direct a goal with a great transition.

5:01So there was a tactical signature there, but there was just an overall improvement, a vast improvement in the team play, the connections, the speed of the game, everything you want to see from a top team. So one swallow and all that, but that is why there's a sudden change in all of our outlook for England. Yeah, and there's lots of players that I want to talk about in particular, and also players who weren't there as well because they're conspicuous by their absence, I think, for the future. But Martin, your reaction to some of the points Johnny made there and also your reading of the game generally.

5:36There's nothing to knock about the result and very little to knock about the performance other than it happened with a team that you look at and you think, right, is that our team for the World Cup? Is that anything like our team for the World Cup? People are writing down their team for the World Cup. how many of those players get in there. So you come away and you feel, you know, absolutely lifted by the performance and then you're sitting there thinking, right, now we've got more questions than answers. Yeah. Because you haven't actually got... Greg is chuckling next to me in the studio, Martin, as the Scot who says, you bloody English all the time.

6:19I know, mate, we want, you know, we want the world. but what I mean is you haven't got a comparable game there was nothing now until the World Cup, that was it, Serbia away was it because we've already beaten 5-0 so Serbia at home, no one's looking at Serbia at home now and thinking oh this is a test because it's not we've beaten 5-0 I touched on it there Martin in asking you the question and you've brought it up then to kind of answer your own point about the dilemmas and stuff and me and Gregor and Kit talked about it on Monday had lots of listeners get in touch with what their team would be.

6:56What are you looking at with that team? I do have people like Noni Madueke and Gordon talk themselves into a team. If you were picking a team now, Martin, could you pick a team? If I was picking a team now, I think you've got to find a way of getting Bellingham back into it. I think we have quite short memories sometimes about Mikhail Saka and about what he brings to England. But whether you change the flank that he's on, I know he never plays on the left, but he's left-footed. So whether you change the flank he's on as a way of getting Maduweki in or whether you change Maduweki's flank, if you think he's the guy, then you're leaving out Cole Palmer.

7:46Now, the problem with Cole Palmer is he's played about 45 minutes in a year. so you can't really look at Cole Palmer and go well he is absolutely integral to us because he's played 45 minutes in a year so that is a dilemma do you play Palmer coming in from the right but then that is not the way that Tuchel wants to play Tuchel wants two wingers that are on the wing he doesn't want everyone to keep coming in he wants people, he wants those crosses that's the crowded problem that Gareth Southgate found, isn't it, when he had all these players moving into the central area and things. Johnny, scribbling down your team in a second, but I just want to come to Gregor on one point that I think is quite interesting.

8:32Well, two players, I think, Gregor, would you agree that in recent weeks we've gone from so many right backs and now Rhys James looks like England's perfect right back in so many ways. There's still a big if for them. Still a big if, but you would agree that if he's fit. Yeah. I think just a reminder that he's been asked to do a lot of more inventive, imaginative things for Chelsea in terms of stepping to midfield and you can do all that and even Thomas Tuchel tried that with him and with Myles Lewis Skelly I'm sceptical about doing that in a major tournament and Tuchel keeps talking about how little time he has in the training ground, don't overcomplicate things and we saw James his value and skill as an attacking right back who can get interact well with a winger and get beyond them and take up positions where he can just open up and whip an unbelievable crossing like as good as Trent Alexander-Arnold at that so yeah he offers more defensively than Trent if we're talking about who's his competition there we spoke beforehand Liveramento you know we were picking our team I picked Jed Spence because I think he's a brilliant athlete one of the best defenders as a fullback in the Premier League but there's a value and I think Gordon should play I picked Gordon in earlier whoever we're talking about coming back in I think he's the best player who's playing in his position We had a few listeners get in touch after Monday talking about Lewis Hall at Newcastle of course injury problems permitting but would be a left footed option at left footed Well the thing I was going to say about Livermento or Lewis Hall but I'm not sure quite as much about Lewis Hall he's developed enormously as a defender but I still wouldn't be quite as confident and it's just me about him in that position.

10:22But those guys having a relationship in club football is big and it was the same, although they didn't play a lot last season because Rhys James was injured, but it's the same with him and Madueke on the right. So these things are valuable. But ultimately, what you saw was a team that was as good as the sum of its parts rather than falling short of that. And that's more powerful than any individual with a small caveat about Jude Bellingham because of some of the ridiculous things he does. So it's a fascinating sort of conundrum that is kind of thrown up now. But the intent, the speed of the play, the kind of just like commitment to getting the ball and looking forward was completely different to anything we've seen before.

11:08And a big part of that was Elliot Anderson, in my view. Yeah, well, I was going to say that's the other, they were the two people that I was going to say Elliot Anderson has gone from the Gregor Robertson fan club to basically guaranteed first name on the team sheet. isn't he next to Declan Rice Johnny is he in your team would you seek quickly on Elitian? He's in my team but look I think we need to look at this a different way and I think this has been English football's problem in all the time I've covered and that's 25 years now 30 years actually nearly and maybe throughout history instead of thinking what names do we need to get in you need to look at it like a club manager would look at it like a club team would look at it what principles do we want to get in what traits do we want in the team what do you want to keep in the team sheet as it were, that we saw in Belgrade going forward, and it was the connections it was the speed of play it was the pressing it was the structure with the left and the right was well balanced that's what we should be looking at, the individual names, sitting here going how do we get Jude Bellingham how do we get Cole Palmer in that's the wrong way to look at it, and that's how English football's been looking at it for so long, I wrote about Stephen Gerrard and Frank Lampard today 72 internationals together created one goal for each other one goal in 72 games including under 21s football because Sven kept thinking I have to get these two guys in the team instead of thinking what do I need from my central midfield and how does that work for the rest of the side so yes I mean Bellingham's and Craig Martin's right we can't have short memories and pretend Jude Bellingham's not one of the best players in the world he is but a role has been defined in the team now at number 10 that Morgan Rodgers played superbly well and it's up to Jude Bellingham to show he can play in that style better than Morgan Rodgers not for Jude Bellingham to show he's a better player than Morgan Rodgers yeah can he do what the team needs in that area and you know his ceiling's so high that surely if you're Jude Bellingham you'd be pretty confident that you could let's have your team then so okay so look he's been scribbling away listening while Morgan and Gregor are talking well look I think it's obvious that Pickford and Kane and Rice that's your spine I think Mark Gahey joins them in terms of he's just above everything else but I mean I go back to the fact that it's not the names it's what they do it's what they represent and I do think Anderson and Rice as a central midfield has got such balance they put England on the front foot a lot more than we've seen in years they can both win the ball back both great athletes they can both pass it both get forward and seem to just two players who instantly seem to understand each other you saw the value in Rice being able to go forward more how many shots did he have in the game absolutely he's so unlucky not to score but that was because of the balance you talk about yeah and then look I think the positions up for grabs are left back definitely Livermento Lewis Skelly Spence probably if Luke Shaw is ever fit again maybe but then he's left back at United Rashford Maduecki Gordon on the left but the important thing again it's not the names it's we saw Liv Rimento and Gordon connect brilliantly, club partnership really well in tune support each other at the right times really dynamic so you're looking at what does a left flank provide not what names to be putting together and then it's probably Saka v Maduecki on the right and again we know Saka's slightly light on decisions because Because that's the point, though, because we're not starting with the names.

14:47Martin Samuel's nearly jumping through the screen at you here, Johnny. You've got to pick some names. No, no, no, you don't have to pick names. That's the whole point in English football. You don't have to pick the names. It's not picking a team of principles. You've got to pick what you want. What do you want in these roles? And then who can fulfil it the best? And we don't know at this stage. But who would you be picking if you were picking now? based on what you said if you were picking if the World Cup started tomorrow based on what you saw and you make some very very good points about like principles and what do we want if you're picking a team tomorrow if the World Cup starts tomorrow I'd give that team another go of course you would why wouldn't you why wouldn't you why would you that's what a club manager would do Martin everyone fit John you would play the same no because Tom's just said if the World Cup starts tomorrow yeah but if everyone and then give you the people who are fit.

15:42Tomorrow, if it's tomorrow, I've been trying to give myself a little bit of wiggle room in time, but I've been trying to explain... No wiggle room on this show, Johnny. I've been trying to explain how managers pick football teams in club football, but we keep coming back to, no, no, but this is England, what names do we get in? No, no, I think you make an excellent point. Go on, Martin. No, but what I mean, no, John, all I was saying was you named three people on the left. Who would you have on the left? Right now? Yeah. Yeah. Andy Gordon he's brilliant I'd have Libermento and Gordon without a doubt they showed and I think that's what Tuko's trying to say they're the guys in possession come and dislodge them and would you say genuinely Jude Bellingham's fit and Morgan Rogers is fit number 10 I think that is the hardest one because I'd also throw in that Serbia suited Morgan Rogers a game where a lot of physicality was going to be needed but right now how could you drop Rogers after that performance Johnny does make a fair point though he makes a great point we just need him to pick a team that's all the theme he's talking about is absolutely true in that what you need is is Bellingham to be as good a connecting sort of player as Rodgers demonstrated like which was so valuable rather than just the talismanic figure that England that's going to score an over a kick in the 95th minute or whatever it is when you're 0-0 against was it Slovenia?

17:01yeah Slovakia, Slovenia? yeah one of the Slovs do you know what I mean? England don't need that they want to be 3-0 up when you're going into the 95th minute because there was a lot of good patterns of play and movement so that's a totally fair point but still you've got to nearly close to the match No but it's fascinating what this performance has done and Johnny you are making an excellent point about international football and it working on the pitch regardless of the players which is a problem that Gareth Southgate had for so long Yeah look there's one other point to make actually which is and again this has always struck me about English football and I compare it to Scotland the drop off is almost never catastrophic you know if you're talking about the difference between Jude Bellingham and Cole Palmer and Morgan Rodgers you're talking about the difference between three brilliant players it's not you're not dropping off a cliff with going from an incredible candidate to somebody who's not very good they're all good players they're all really good players and I just think if we start trying to think of the team rather than the names that's simply where I'm coming from Absolutely.

18:03No, and I think you make an excellent point. I'm just with Team Martin. You've got to pick at some point. I have to say, I'd have to face the press. If I dropped Jude Bellingham, face the press. That's a good point. It's a big call. Absolutely. There's a couple of other names that I just want to bring in. It's not the press. It's not the press. If you drop Jude Bellingham and get knocked out by the first team you play, everyone is going to say, well, what was all that about? Look, the only thing I would say with all this, it was fantastic. It was absolutely fantastic the other night. Really, really great performance.

18:37However, we have, in our qualifying games, had this before. Right. You know, there is often a standout performance in qualifying where you go, we want more of this. So, Croatia, can you remember who was the standout performer when we beat Croatia 4-1 under Fabio Capella? I can. It was Theo, wasn't it? Theo Walcott, hat-trick on the night now, where was he in the 2010 World Cup? and what happened to the 2010 World Cup? absolutely, so should they have carried on playing do we think that Theo Walcott was better than say Wayne Rooney in that position? not Wayne Rooney but when England got to the 2010 World Cup they played with nothing like the speed and effectiveness But I think your point about the names is a good one with that, isn't it?

19:35Because it wasn't 2010 when they tried to get Scholes out of retirement and all this kind of stuff. Just before they named the Scholes, they panicked and went, oh, Christ, let's get all the old lads back in. Fabio had no faith in the team, did he? He certainly had a crisis of confidence about three weeks before the tournament due to start and thought, I haven't got the quality. So, you know, that's all I'm saying. we can get very fixated on a great performance equally you can get very very fixated and we are fixated on dropping your best player utterly because in 1966 we dropped you know Jimmy Greaves didn't get back in the team and we won the World Cup you look how quickly once it starts going wrong everyone wants a centre forward drop everyone wants Harry Kane out the team Olly Watkins at the last European Championships all we heard was Olly Watkins Ollie Watkins, got to be Ollie Watkins got to be Ollie Watkins because we won the World Cup with Geoff Hurst and not Jimmy Green so we have these fixations as a nation I just think we saw it was underlined here the value of speed and directness because England started the Euros with three twisty turny players in behind in behind Harry Kane I like that, twisty turny players we wished Phil Foden I knew exactly what you meant Saka was there, they wanted another twisty turning player in Cole Palmer.

20:57Look, these guys can run and they're quick, but they don't get the ball and go, right, I'm taking you on. And that's exactly what Gordon, that's why throughout the whole tournament, I was like, get Gordon in the team, because also you don't have a left back who wants to advance up the pitch. You're playing Kieran Trippier there. So there is a huge value in having guys who, that is their reason for being in the team. It's not all about the connective play around the edge of the box. I mean that has value but it's not as devastating as this Having pace outside Kane is absolutely fundamental 2022 probably Gareth's best World Cup Rashford was at his best Euro 2020 was Sterling providing the pace on the left so yeah having quick players out there and not having twisty turnies is essential but I can't sort of let this go without I don't want to come away from this as a man who's dropping Jude Bellingham because I just want to say that...

21:53I dropped him on Monday, Johnny. It's fine. Look, he's a sensational footballer. I'd be confident that if you challenge Jude to get into this team and you said these are the roles that you can audition for, he's good enough to do it. Absolutely. In fact, he might fancy himself to dislodge someone else in a different position than number 10. He's fantastic. But that's the way round it's got to be. Do we do this very quickly on Jude Bellingham because I'm going to bring in some listeners' teams at a minute. Chris, our listeners, got in touch saying he'd pick Rice and Bellingham next to each other, do the Rice and Bellingham in midfield thing do you think Anderson has shown maybe you're better off letting Declan Rice go forward all the skills we talked about and have Elliot Anderson or Wharton sat in there next to him well look there was great balance there in theory there's no reason why Rice and Bellingham can't balance out as well because Rice would just have to be the one who's a bit more conservative and Bellingham going forward is more valuable than Rice going forward but there is a bigger picture to look at too and it's about how well they protect the back four and how much...

22:53Bellingham's all... He's Mr Action Man. He's not... You wouldn't say the word that screams out when you talk about Jude Bellingham's discipline. And you need a bit of discipline in the middle of the pitch in a World Cup. So that's my only kind of concern. And also his biggest value is getting close to it. Absolutely. And then another one, a listener, James, got in touch to say, you know, lots of people talk about John Stones and his experience, but the best pairing has been Gehi and Konza. and I think they then played pretty well before this James Gatchy got in touch before the match he got in touch after Monday's show that centre back pairing Johnny if John Stones is fit does he go straight in or is it Konza and Gay is now I think Konza and Gay are in possession but I mean God John Stones is a great footballer and brilliant in tournaments but he has to dislodge Konza doesn't he and then interestingly both of the listeners that I just mentioned had players that we've not even talked about Phil Foden I mean Phil Foden what a narrative arc Phil Foden's having it's obviously a full season ahead at Manchester City and another one with James Grealish Jack Grealish James the listener got in touch to say that if he has a good season for Everton he would have him on the left wing are these guys, no?

24:01Greg is shaking his head you'd have pace that's it again think how club football works you have squads and you have tools and you use them in different settings, use them in different games, you bring them off the bench at the right times and what we're seeing in the club game by the way is increasingly the top end of the pitch almost like rugby, they come off after big multiple substitutions after an hour get the finishers on yeah replace the front three, you see that a lot but I think we've got to start thinking more like club football Martin just final word from you on that and some of the players I talked about there mentioning the likes of Jack Grealish and Phil Foden and people, you know, we've got more international breaks to come.

24:47Yeah, Jack Greenish is in great form, which Phil Foden isn't. Phil Foden's not playing. Look, I'll tell you what's going to happen. We're going to get to a tournament and then we're going to see what's real and what's not. And we're going to see what players are real and what's not as well. And it could go fabulously well. and then, you know, and then everything the man does is... So that's... Yeah. If you get knocked out in a disappointing fashion, let's say, you know, the old first good team you played, which is often was the story of England, pretty much until Southgate came along, really. First good team we played.

25:36Then you're going to go back and in 10 years' time And when people look back on the era, they're going to go, how did we not play Foden? How did we not play... How did we not play... Just on that, Martin, are we not... In the way that we look back on Paul Scales? I picked his team. No, no, we're not picking his team. I'm just talking... It's an interesting thing that Johnny has brought up and thinking about, you know, my mate Sir Gareth and all of his great traits, but he didn't make many really big, brave calls with selection. He did get to the end and he was just lobbying all the names on. He did at the start.

26:07He dropped Wayne Rooney. Yeah. But he moved away from that. And then he finished by having all the twisty-turny names on, as Gregor said. So, Martin, you're quite right that we'll end up, when the media are going, oh, I can't believe he dropped this guy and we lost. But you're kind of looking at it and going, if Thomas Tuchel's going to actually implement Anthony Gordon as England's starting left winger, because he wants a style, Johnny, is that not better if we then end up not having Jack Grealish and the like? Yes, it is. And Martin is right to bring up Jimmy Greaves. If Alf Ramsey hadn't won the World Cup, what would we be saying about him, the man that kept the great Jimmy Gavis out of the team?

26:44Yeah, so it's the result, isn't it? It's the result, yeah. You know, everything, I know it's just such a simple thing, but everything is sailing through the prism of the end result. Yeah, well, and it was a pretty good end result in Serbia. Just very quickly before we take a break, another listener, Gregor, Sam in Sydney, got in touch to say, Tom I've been reading a few pieces on the Times Sport website lately and I've noticed that a couple of Gregor's colleagues have used his immortal phrase that both things can be true is there some sort of bet going on at the Times Sports Desk? I don't know whether there's a bet we should be trademarking this shouldn't we in very divisive times both things can be true just like get everyone on side Gregor's going to heal the world if there's enough people get in touch for Gregor Robertson both things can be true t-shirts I'll make it happen how many do you reckon we need to get in touch three one your mum my mum and a few others yeah perfect we'll see what we can do but do get in touch if you've got views on Gregor's trademark t-shirt or on anything we've had to say about england tom.clock at thetimes.co.uk we're going to take a quick break in the second half of the show we'll talk all things Premier League and you can play Bill Edgar's weekly quiz about the weekend's fixtures on the Times website every week so I thought we'd test Gregor Martin and Johnny now with one of Bill's questions.

28:06Newcastle face Wolves this weekend and in 2004, Carl Court left Newcastle for Wolves for£2 million. What was the name of his younger brother who played in the Premier League with Stoke City and Burnley? Find out after the break.

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30:14Welcome back to The Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Martin Samuel, Gregor Robertson and Johnny Northcroft with me. Johnny was waving his pen in the air before I'd even finished asking that question. The answer to which was, Johnny... Who could forget Leon Corr? Leon Corr, absolutely. That's one of the only ones I got right in Bill Edgar's weekly quiz take part on the Times website. Now, chaps, the other big story of the week. Further proof, as ever, as journalists, we think, oh, it's the international break. Oh, might be a bit quiet. You know, we'll be talking about England's selection for a long time.

30:46Along comes Evangelos Maranakis with a huge story, sacking Nuno Espirito Santo. Gregor, just when we were starting to be convinced that it was all going well at Nottingham Forest, the huge, huge story, it's obviously progressed massively across the week with Ange Postacoglu being brought in. We're recording this on Thursday. By the time you listen, Ange Postacoglu will have already spoken in his unveiling press conference. Charlotte Dunker is there for us, so go and read her words on the Times website now. But chaps, let's go back first to that sacking of Nuno and your reactions to it. Anyone surprised a little bit?

31:20I've got to be honest, I'm naive when it comes to these things. I was a little bit surprised. Johnny? My reaction was, I'm glad I'm not Rob Dorsett from Sky because poor Rob, if you think about his Monday England press conference travel to Serbia England press conference then there was a Manchester City APT story and then he was having to do quarter past midnight the statement came out another big story and you're just like oh my goodness who's got the stomach for this all in one day was I surprised? no not really I think since that Nuno press conference since he laid bare the breakdown in relationships and in a way that almost challenged his own eye.

32:03So I thought, we can see where this one's going. In fact, that looks more and more like a kind of last ditch effort to sort of, you know, last resort thing that Nuno did to try and keep his job. Am I surprised at this wild swinging sort of style with the appointment? I mean, I would be if I was expecting logic, but I don't think that's how... But in terms of Nuno going... No, no. Just the plain fact of everything is itchy. No, it's nonsense. From a football point of view, it's nonsense, yeah. I mean, as I stated, obviously he returned the club to... The club that finished 17th last season, avoided relegation after inheriting a team that were on the slide under Steve Cooper, or even low, there was still a lot of warm feeling to Steve Cooper.

32:52Kept him up the next season, returned him to Europe for the first time in 30 years. and in the summer I don't think we'll ever know unless Nuno really explicitly says it and I don't think he's the type of manager who will but he was at the very least sidelined in recruitment decisions and felt that was not a just reward for what he just achieved and at worst he maybe got a sniff of someone being lined up in the background Ange Postocoglu so as I say only Nuno can really tell us that but it wasn't really a reward for his achievement and yeah like the idea that the thing about Forrest now is that the rise has been extraordinary and Martin wrote a piece not so long ago and we discussed it about you know it's good for our owner to be elbows out and to be really protecting the club and have ambition and all these things but the Forrest fans are having to either overlook or even worse get behind some pretty unpalatable stuff in the process and like one of these things one of the things is having to just bid farewell to someone who you've grown really attached to like on a whim at the click of a finger but some of them seem to be listening to radio phone-ins and things some of them seem to bid farewell in quite a ruthless manner that's the sad thing about modern fandom they kind of they're just like they buy the line they buy the line that you know it was fed to we're getting into things maybe we shouldn't talk about here but there was you know reports that Nuno was trying to engineer his own exit I would rather take the view that Johnny did he was trying to make a stand stand up for himself say I don't think this is the way I should be being treated after last season but the fans just look at what at the club's rise and Maranakis' name as I said the other week has been sung at every single game along with the words he does what he wants and that's the truth that's the state of play at the club so a lot of the fans will get behind it because look where they are but there's some other stuff along the way that if I was a Forrest fan I wouldn't like Before we get on to Andrew Postacoglu Martin, Greg a reference there the piece you wrote earlier in the season about Evangelos Maranakis and his personality as an owner your reaction to this decision before we come on to Postacoglu and what now for Forrest?

35:21Well, the only thing I would say is, look, you know, Nuno's done a great job. Nuno shouldn't be out of a job. I didn't think Steve Cooper should be out of a job, but Nuno then took them on. So, you know, I don't think Nuno should be out of a job, having said this. Maranakis brings Edu in.

35:45It's seen as quite a coup. Edu is seen as someone who did a good job at Arsenal everyone's raving about the fact that Tottenham have got someone from that same era you know in an executive position now and oh look at this it was fantastic so they get Edu in for a club of Nottingham Forest size that's seen as quite a coup it becomes perfectly obvious very early on that there's a clash between Nuno and Edu well something's got to give you can't have a club where the manager and the sporting director or the head of global operations or whatever title the man's got you can't have a club where those two guys aren't on the same aren't on the same page so something had to give so as much as I think Nuno has been harshly treated given the job that he's done at Nottingham Forest, which is a fantastic job, I have a small degree of sympathy for Maranakis in as much as I don't think he did that to try to oust the manager necessarily.

37:00I think he genuinely did try to improve the club, to prepare for this bigger Nottingham Forest. You've got to think what they would be Morgan Gibbs-White as well, a situation where normally Tottenham would come in and pluck their best player, as they did with Brennan Johnson. And this time, Maranac has felt strong enough to push back. So all the time, he's got big plans for Nottingham Forest. He sees them as a much bigger club than we all do. Yeah. And I think what he was trying to do was take them forward again, and it's backfired. but once it backfires you've got a decision to make that's all I would say it's backfired in the sense of you've brought in someone who clashes with the manager and the director of football and it apparently was very obvious very early that Nuno wasn't having this guy and he wasn't going to the training ground and all of this so you've got a decision you've either got to let the head of global football operations go and back your manager and start again which suggests that the manager runs the club which Maranac is never going to really be too happy about or you've got to go okay then we'll get a manager that can work with this guy and that's what I think has happened and I'm not saying it's fair I'm just saying that that had to happen one way or the other but the other thing I would say about that is that like Nuno for in his last two press conferences which I was at spoke very hopefully about sitting down and ironing out their issues and having talks and you know trying to create a solution that would meant that the club could move forward and everyone wanted the best for Nottingham Forest he never even got the talks that tells you everything about Maranakis and how much he really wanted to either either how much he wanted to keep Nuno or Or how much...

39:08I do, you mean. No, no. No, no. How much you want to keep Nuno. Nuno. Or how much... There's no chance if you ever, like, cross him in the slightest terms, there's any going back. Oh, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. Both of those things are, like, abundantly clear to me, like, by the fact that he didn't even get the phone call. Would you not think, Gregor, that Nuno might have been, let's say, more conciliatory in public than what's happening in private because what you hear about what was happening in private, there's no way you can run a football club like that. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of the David Moyes situation at West Ham where Indian Steiton couldn't...

39:51Now, I'm not saying... I bet David Moyes over Steiton every single time, but Indian Steiton wasn't at the training ground. He couldn't come to the training ground and things like that. You hear these situations at Liverpool, Brendan Rodgers clashing with the recruitment department and Jurgen Klopp being willing to listen to them and work with them changed Liverpool. Yeah. Changed Liverpool. So that's all I mean. I totally get what everyone's saying. And I do think that Nuno deserves more or deserves better. It is. At the same time, I see it from the other point of view as well. It is the kind of ultimate example of the modern day football where the manager is kind of, you know, they're no longer the be-all and end-all at a football club, are they?

40:38They're far from it. They can be interchanged just like that, regardless of success, Johnny. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we've just seen, I think Ten Hag lost his job after two games because he couldn't work with the hierarchy at Dortmund. But in Germany, that's logical. They're used to that system. The hierarchy runs it. At Leverkusen, yeah. At Leverkusen, sorry. There's a pattern, right? So Steve Cooper, who I agree with Martin, shouldn't have lost his job when you say shouldn't we're kind of talking about fairness and the good job that he did but Maranakis isn't a man who wants to wait so the credit that he bought for taking the club up didn't keep him in the job very long when Maranakis decided he wanted to push towards the top of the table and now the credit Nuno bought in getting towards the top of the table hasn't kept him in the job very long because Maranakis wants the bigger forest so he runs the club of course he runs the club and Eddie was never if you think of Eddie at Arsenal enormously popular operator and you hear good things about his style of working but he was never a strident front of house guy I think he's a facilitator of Maranakis' ambitions he's not the strong, it is Maranakis running the club is what I'm saying it's not the director of football running it either or the global operations as Maranacis.

42:02Yeah, yeah. Even though I think he told UEFA, he, you know. He had nothing to do with him. Yeah, exactly. He didn't even know who they were. Taking a step back. We can head down the route of talking about Maranacis too. But I want to talk about the appointment and Postacoglu. I don't think I've ever been so simultaneously sad for a departing manager and as excited about the return of a man. Both things can be true. Both things can be true. Exactly. Absolutely. Get your own lane, Johnny. Get the t-shirts printed now. But Gregor, it's true, isn't it? I mean, I am so buzzing for Ange Postacoglu to be back, but it's going to be fascinating to see how he deals with this Nottingham Forest team and squad and the challenge of Europe this season.

42:44It's certainly going to be fascinating, yeah. I mean, I'm just slightly confused by the whole kind of, like, this idea that his idea about having one style of play kind of was it was shown not to be true by the way they played in the Europa League to win the tournament and that showed he's got an element of pragmatism he's the one who kept banging on about having only one style of play like it's not a mystery where this came from and he said he's going to have his press conference this afternoon but he's already spoken to the Clubs in House TV channel and he's like he says it's no secret I like my teams to attack I love my teams to score goals that's sometimes misconstrued as me just playing one way but the reason I want my team to play that way is because I love winning things and that's what I want us to do here that's confusing too you do want them to play that way this is going to be the thing that intrigues everyone about the appointment partly because it's such it's basically turning Forrest's style play on its head because Nuno Nuno played an effective brand of football low or mid block counter attacking like it worked Spurs under Postacoglu for a long time played football that was just like rooted in ideology and it didn't actually do there were there were great highs and really really kind of deep lows and then he chucked it all in the bin when he had some injuries and when because he somehow feels that league football and cup football are totally different I don't see the logic in that either there's no logic in any of what Postogoglu has said for about six or eight months something like that like it's just it's completely confusing so like but I would be astonished if he doesn't go back to trying to implement the football that we saw when he arrived at Spurs and Mark and I were and a big seller at the back from Selva is that what you were going to say yeah exactly yeah yeah we were chatting in Belgrade when you remote you can never get the nuances yeah yeah no no Malinkovic yeah no we were just talking on Tuesday night about when's the last time you saw Harry Kane outpace outstrip a defender but he did with Milenkovic you had to chase him down and hack him so good luck with the high line for him That was the Forest Player of the Year last season Yeah Do you agree Johnny with Gregor's points there about the confusion are you similarly confused about the These are words these are just words from Ange he'll go back to his style of play you know he's done it for 35 years and you know it served him really well and he's probably saying what he thinks he needs to say at this point but I'd be stunned if he continued to play the type of football we saw Spurs win the winning Europe with I think he'll go back to you know high lines and running but just to be clear I think that's a mistake like you go back you know that football served him well up until they arrived in the Premier League yeah and it didn't serve him well in the Premier League but it served him well for the first season yeah we're top after 10 games It served them well for 10 games and then actually if you look at Spurs' form over the course of the rest of his time there it was more like mid-table form they won 8 of the first 10 games so it was a blistering start and everyone was like wow this is great but then reality struck you can't work the players that hard the speed and preparation and level of all of his opposition is far greater than anything he's ever faced before you're not necessarily the strongest team and that was with Spurs now he's with Forrest as Forrest has said in my piece of a really talented squad there are some players like Murillo who you think match made in heaven Gibbs White, Anderson, brilliant but the bigger picture is his football will not work in the Premier League Martin, your thoughts on some of the points the guys have made?

46:37Right, well all very valid points and you know look I've always come at this I've always come at this in a site that it's meant to add. It's meant to be fun. It's meant to add to the deity of nations. I don't really care whether it works or not. I'm going to, you know... Nottingham Forest fans, Mike, though. Nottingham Forest fans, good luck. That's fantastic. If you want to do an hour on West Ham, I'll call you a lot of everyone. We'll have no listeners and, you know, enjoy yourselves, everybody, right? So, forget Nottingham Forest fans. I'm just talking about... Yeah, yeah, no, no, I'm with you.

47:18The one adds to the gaiety of nations. This adds to the gaiety of nations. You want a big bag of popcorn, let's see if this works. Let's see, you know, in front of the telly, Arsenal, 12.30, Saturday morning, good luck with that. So, you know, it'll be great. It'll be great. The league is more fun with Anginic. Absolutely. That we can all agree with. You know, that is, and that's the way I see a lot of football. I really do you know all the stuff when I'm writing about accountancy and stuff oh what about this I don't really care about that I just want it to be fun it's meant to be for the entertainment of the working class this ball so let's have fun 12.30 Saturday morning Arsenal away off you go Johnny you're going to be there on Saturday so you must share Martin's enthusiasm for this game oh I do Saturday seems a brilliant game to be at and yeah Ange Ange is an inimitable presence, a unique story in football.

48:23And I actually, you know, I hope, the romantic in me hopes he does somehow succeed with this. But I share a lot of Gregor's reservations. Very interesting. Lots of all the big games this weekend. The Manchester Derby, of course, on Sunday. Potentially new goalkeepers on show. Or will it be Altai Bay and Deer for Manchester United? A big exhale from Johnny Northcroft. No, but who's in City's goal as well? Well, exactly. Who do we think it'll be? It'll be Donnarumma. Surely you can't spend all that money, can you, and not start someone of his experience? You'd think so, yeah. You'd think so. That will be the way Pep goes now, won't it?

48:56We talked about this when the signing came in a few weeks ago, but that's where we're going to head now, aren't we? James Trafford is a bright young thing, but you can't sign Donnarumma and not play him as your number one. No, no, no. Of course you can't. I'm still confused as to why he signed him. We're all very confused in this second half of the show about lots of different things, very confusing things going on in the Premier League. Yeah, I mean, Pep's old future is another fascinating thing now that I've had time to ponder in the first international break. He was off watching the tennis in the US Open.

49:30He was watching the golf. He's doing things that you wouldn't necessarily have seen him doing in the past at a time like this when you've just lost two of your first three games of the season. And, yeah, if he signed Donnarumma he's not going to be asking him to play football out from the back after seeing James Trafford make these mistakes I wonder whether he's thinking pressing in football is too much now we can't do this anymore I wonder if that's a part of it but who knows, again, time will tell Very interesting game Also with Donnarumma you don't get Donnarumma to the club by saying Manchester Derby you'll be on the bench behind James Trafford.

50:13Yeah, no. Donald Wilmer isn't coming to a club. No, I don't see it either. They should put him in the first team. I don't see it either. Will we see Benjamin Sesko actually start for Manchester United? They're already starting to look a little bit worrying. They have to. They have to. I think they have to play him. They have to play him into form. But he's a kid. I mean, that's the other thing. I think there has to be an acceptance that they've signed the one for the future rather than the one for now. But it's Man United. they never have time do they definitely already excited for the Erasmus Hoyland renaissance at Napoli Martin you joked there about doing an entire show on West Ham but just very briefly on West Ham they've got a huge game as well on Saturday home against Tottenham it's one of those games that we talked about already this season you mentioned it I think this idea that West Ham lift themselves for matches against local London rivals and things I've never said that in your life which they certainly didn't show against Chelsea early in the season But for Graham Potter, having made some signings in midfield, which has been much needed, this is a big, big game for him, isn't it?

51:15The midfield had to get quicker. I mean, basically, because it couldn't get slower. It really couldn't. I mean, so the midfield had to get quicker. It was quicker against Nottingham Fires. The fella they got from Southampton looks good. Yeah, I mean, look, that was a big result at Nottingham Fires. 3-0, it really was and there are good players there Pacquiao is a good player, Gerard Bowen is a good player the defence will give you kittens every single time and we'll see, Tottenham are a much better team than West Ham at the moment, they really are and nobody was more surprised I would think than anyone who followed West Ham by the Nottingham Forest result, you know it really wasn't You just looked at that and thought, well, where did that come from?

52:09I mean, if you had to have, you know, my mother, who's a West Ham season ticket holder, was texting me the odds for Nottingham Forest and saying it's the bet of the year before that match. And I hope he didn't have it. But, you know, you looked at the price and you're thinking, well, they've messed that up. That should be a lot, lot shorter. turns out the bookies knew what they were talking about it turned out you don't see too many poor ones no absolutely we've got a fascinating weekend in store and whether we'll see Alexander Izak for Liverpool as well you can keep up to date with all the latest from the guys on the Times website across the weekend we'll leave it there for now Martin Samuel, Johnny Northcroft and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday we'll see you then

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