WOMEN’S EURO 2025: England v Netherlands - it's crunch time

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1:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. This is our Euro 2025 show and well, we said it wouldn't be easy, but did England make it hard for themselves? Serena Vigman's side began their defence of their European Championship title with a 2-1 defeat against France on Saturday night. And on today's show, we'll be analysing that match, discussing some controversial decisions and previewing a must-win clash with the Netherlands. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me we have the women's football reporter for the Times and Sunday Times, Kit Shepard and the former England international and Times columnist Izzy Christensen is with us too.

1:41Right then, Izzy, loads to discuss so let's dive straight in. Firstly, there's lots of topics I'm sure we're going to come into now. We're recording this on Sunday, bit of time to reflect but just let's put this in context. let's go to the expert England I think we're beaten by the better team overall would you agree?

1:59Kit Shepard: Yeah yeah without a doubt on the night I mean we said before the game so much anticipation and sort of lead up to England's first game and obviously the extra noise around being the defending champions and for the players if you just put yourself into their shoes it's a long wait to wait to play and I just think obviously same for the French team in terms of it being a long wait I just think France, the way they approached the game from the very first minute, they were aggressive, they won the midfield battle early on and I think that gave them a real foothold in the game to do what they then went on and did and I thought they could have scored more in the second half.

2:36Kit Shepard: So we had a late fight, but yeah, it just wasn't enough in the end and there's a little bit of a mountain to climb. Kit, would you agree with that assessment, just the kind of lay of the land, England beaten by the better team?

2:47Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, absolutely. England started pretty well and the last 10 minutes when they got the when they pulled it back to 2-1 were pretty good but everything in between was was not so good I think France just kind of overpowered them in quite a literal sense of that word they just seemed faster stronger more dynamic and yeah England couldn't really cope especially in that kind of middle I guess 70 minutes of the game. Izzy you said England had a long wait for this game do you think there's a bit of pressure maybe got to them here, the defending champions, a lot of attention on this team, an inconsistent build-up to the tournament, some off-field issues.

3:26Did it feel like it was all getting to them or do you think it was more just for purely football?

3:33Kit Shepard: Purely football for me. I think the camp felt, looked, heard, really settled leading into that game and it still is. It still will be. I think we all know in football one game doesn't define you. And the same for France. that win against England doesn't define who they are as well. They've got their own journey to go on and progress with. But I think for England, it was just around the game. I think France was sharper, more aggressive in the midfield and almost like caught us off guard a little bit. And I think that's where their game plan was really clever. The France camp had a little bit of controversy leading into the game.

4:10Kit Shepard: I thought all of their players who featured performed performed to a really high level collectively. And I think, you know, spotlight on Delphine Cascarino and the captain on the night, Karshawi, who played in that middle role, kind of, she was basically given a free role in central areas to go and dominate the ball. She carried the ball, she dribbled the ball and she fed Baltimore and Cascarino, the two wide players for France. And England just couldn't deal with it. And I think the way I'd describe it for England was a bit of a splash of cold water in the face. and yeah, there's a chance now for them to put it right and I'm sure they will have addressed that this morning.

4:46You mentioned there Cascarino down that right-hand side. We picked it out in the preview show. You mentioned England's defence, that left side. I think you both discussed it. Is there a bit of naivety there on England's part, on Serena Wiegmann's part, is he? Or is it just France doing what a good side does and exploits their strengths and the other side's weaknesses?

5:06Kit Shepard: I think both. I thought Diani would play on the right wing for France but Cascarino got the nod and it's one of those which raised a few eyebrows before the game when the French team sheet came out and it's one of those where you can just safely say the manager got the core spot on because the way that Cascarino performed up against Jess Carter she had Jess Carter on toast and we go back into the England camp and go who's the best left back and Jess Carter had a good warm-up game against Jamaica and it seemed like she was edging ahead of Niamh Charles in that position. And we spoke about it in the column that Kit wrote.

5:44Kit Shepard: I said the words for Kit wrote it brilliantly, that that was an area where England could be exploited. And clearly the French manager thought the same. And the supply line to the two wide players for France was too easy. And then that puts Jess Carter and Lucy Barnes as fullbacks in a very vulnerable position. And that's where both the goals came from. Yeah, Kit, Izzy mentioned there that supply line. The midfield felt like to me, obviously you guys were there watching it far more closely. I was just watching it on my telly, but it looked like that midfield battle was one that England lost and proved crucial.

6:16You know, Kira Walsh, Georgia Stanway, absolute stalwarts, absolute top level players, superstars of Euro 2022. It felt a little bit like if they're not absolutely on their game, England are in trouble.

6:29Izzy Christiansen: yeah and if uh Lauren James not a full fitness is going to effectively be the third midfielder you're in you're in even bigger trouble um James was quite a big focus in the post-match analysis I thought of her kind of level of contribution defensively playing in that number 10 was she getting back enough was she working enough off the ball probably no was was the short answer I I don't think that's because she wasn't trying or anything very facile like that. I think it's because she's naturally an attacking player and she's played 90 minutes in the past three months with 60 of them coming yesterday.

7:08Izzy Christiansen: So yeah, England's midfield was light in that sense. You had James, who's a very attacking midfielder. You had Georgia Stanway, who played below her best, I would say, and is also coming back from a long-term injury herself. and that left Keira Walsh very isolated and a France midfield with its pace and with his very clear game plan and just had a field day and England couldn't adjust in time, couldn't react quickly enough and got punished. I'd be curious to ask Izzy, we kind of knew this was coming from France. We knew they were quite a direct team. We know they've got so many just fast, powerful physical attacking players and physical midfielders.

7:54Izzy Christiansen: So it didn't feel like a massive surprise the way they played and the threats they posed. So why do you think England couldn't stop them?

8:03Kit Shepard: Well, I think that, you know, the game, early on in the game, like first five minutes, I noticed how, I say the word again, aggressive the French midfield was. And that is such a key area of the pitch when a game is so tight. and I think the more duels that France won, the more that they grew into the game and the game plan for France was so simple. Be aggressive in the middle, bully England in the middle of the pitch and feed the wide players as soon as you get the ball and that's exactly what they did early. They eliminated any sort of build-up play playing out from the back. They were like, no, we're going to lull England into a sense of they're playing through the midfield because we know that's what they want to do and as soon as the ball goes into Stanway or Walsh's feet, They just swarmed them like bees.

8:48Kit Shepard: They won it and then they went forward. And I think Cascarino's form, the way that she got the best with Jess Carter, wasn't as a result Jess Carter's poor defending. It was just how quickly in that situation you'd expect any top-class winger to dominate a fullback because the attacking player has always got the authority in those 1v1 situations because they know what they're going to do. The defender's guessing. And yeah, I think that was where the game was won and lost. Can I just return to the Lauren James point, Kit, and Izzy? I'd be interested in both of your views because I was watching and thinking, obviously, as Kit, as you said in the live file that you could read on the Times website, it was a huge call, slightly surprising.

9:29Ella Toon had been brilliant in that warm-up game against Jamaica, scored twice. You're making the point there that maybe defensively Lauren James was lacking, but I was also watching it and thinking, we need to get the ball to Lauren James. This is the only way anything's going to happen if we get the ball to Lauren James. Are you suggesting that, you know, hindsight's a wonderful thing, but was that a wrong call from Serena Vigman, maybe to get more energy to start the game? It was a bit of a gamble that didn't pay off. Kit, start with you.

9:57Izzy Christiansen: I would have, with the caveat of I'm not a manager who's won the last two Euros, and with hindsight as well, which is handy, I would have started Lauren James on the right in a more advanced role instead of Beth Mead, because you're right, Tom, In the first 15 minutes was almost a Lauren James show. When we thought England got 1-0 up with the Russo goal that was disallowed, James just created that, picked up the ball in her own half, ran 40 metres, chopped inside one player and played out to, I think it was Mead. And that led to what we thought was England's first goal. So I think in the first 15 minutes, James kind of proved she was ready to start and ready to make an impact.

10:42Izzy Christiansen: However, was she ready to play quite an industrious midfield role? I'm not so sure. I think it would have been better to have her kind of stationed out on the right, obviously roaming a bit as she does, but have the chance to just stay forward and kind of be the player that makes things happen for England in attacks. That's where she's best, not particularly tracking back, although she can do that as well. And I think that's often overlooked, but she's better with the ball at her feet and going forward. Izzy, what do you reckon?

11:10Kit Shepard: Yeah, it's an interesting one. Hindsight is wonderful. But I was really set in my head on Grace Clinton starting the game. Interesting. And I only say that because if I had that group of players and I'm picking a team to play against this particular French team, I would have gone, okay, profiling the central areas of Jean-Francois or Sandy Talletti, Jean-Francois of Chelsea got the nod. Gray Oro was a pretty nailed on starter. She's a physical, powerful player. Karshaoui physical powerful quick ball carrier natural left back comes inside into that midfield area and plays and then Jean-Francois has got the experience of playing up against Kira Walsh because they probably do it every day in training at Chelsea so there's a little bit of savviness there from Bonadé the French manager but I would have gone with Clinton and I just merely say that because I would have matched them up in the midfield and throughout the whole of this season WSL and at times in an England shirt throughout the Nations League campaign I've seen Grace Clinton compete physically to a level I've not seen before of her and I think when she when she plays like that she could be a real asset for England and I thought okay this is going to be a game for Clinton to nullify the French midfield and I have that attacking threat as well in the final third and then it's going to be a game where Clinton might come off after 60 55 60 minutes and that's when you release Lauren James I do slightly disagree on using Lauren James out wide in that game against France because of their threat in the wide areas and the tracking back that Lauren James would have had to have done um Beth Mead and Lauren Hemp did a lot of work backwards towards their own goal which says a lot about the French threat in the wide areas and then it nullified England going forward we didn't get the bodies up close enough to Alessio Russo to support the attack but I still stand by what I think should have happened and that was Clinton in the sort of number eight position number 10 position alongside Stanway and Walsh but you know hindsight's a wonderful thing yeah very interesting we'll come back to Grace Clinton and some of those other subs who came on to the game when we look ahead to the Netherlands match just just coming back to the the match and some of the things that went wrong I mean the passing The passing for me was pretty stinking in large parts.

13:26Kit, I don't know whether you'd agree, you guys would agree, maybe I'm being a bit harsh. I just found myself screaming at the TV. How can we not find feet every single time we were giving the ball away, it seemed?

13:35Izzy Christiansen: There are a few occasions. I think Mead had a couple, Stamway had a couple. I'm sure other players did as well, wasn't it? Those two, it was just like simple 10-metre passes that were just off and going straight to a blue shirt. and I know I'd be interested to hear from Izzy, is there a reason for that beyond just very sloppy play? It just seemed very, very basic errors.

14:00Kit Shepard: Yeah, I agree. You know, there was a lot of loose passes and you just need to look at France's first goal from Cototo. You know, the ball is released on the right-hand side for France because the pass is intercepted. Really loose pass from Georgia Stanley, very uncharacteristic. If you go back to, you know, watching that goal back, when Georgia Stanway pass out to Lauren Hemp the intent behind the pass threat pass to play but completely the wrong execution and that is so uncharacteristic of Georgia Stanway who prides her game on authoritative passing and I think moments like that happen far too often there was a couple of there was a really hairy moment in the second half where Beth Mead released the ball I think it was Gras Gaioro who was the highest player the midfielder and she went through one-on-one with Hampton and she should have scored and that should have been 3-0 so that's all come from England being slack in possession which I think will probably be the thing that troubles or annoys Serena Vigman the most because it's something which the spells against Jamaica in the warm-up friendly last week the passing was so crisp and that will be something that Serena Vigman prides herself on, it's something that the players pride themselves on and to not execute on the big stage, it's nothing alien for them to play on the big stage it just seemed that they were getting lulled into the traps that France were setting and I think that'll be the biggest kind of thing that England will assess and go right we have to be sharper in possession against the Netherlands on Wednesday night and if we're not we're going to be punished exactly the same way as France did Yeah we're going to again come on to some of the things we're going to have to do against the Netherlands on Wednesday night another thing which I think you know we've got how long have we gone we've gone for 13 minutes into this show without mentioning the other thing that I was screaming at my TV which was about the decisions of referee Tess Olofsson obviously the first one is not so much her it's the video assistant referee with that offside that kit mentioned already i found that incredibly frustrating i'm just going to say that for any listeners or who else who found that frustrating even when we saw the var we were sharing it on the whatsapp group going anyone explain this offside to me kit am i wrong to be am i being naive in modern football do i need to grow up and get on with it uh yes i thought i thought yes was coming then i knew it it wasn't on about var either yeah yeah it's um it's it's part of the

16:20Izzy Christiansen: game if you're gonna if you're gonna play with var and semi-automated offside you're gonna get these slightly strange and somewhat unjust var calls because because they they do have to draw the line somewhere and the technology revealed that i think it was mead's shoulder and i've I've heard some people say it was a hip. Some part of Bethnead was a millimeter offside. And so it's offside and it's frustrating. It feels unfair for England. It stifled their momentum. And you can understand why they're a little bit hacked off about it. But you have to react when you have misfortune. And England reacted in completely the wrong way.

17:03Izzy Christiansen: It really felt like the game just completely turned on that moment. in the 15 minutes before, England were on top and after that, it was all France. Izzy, do you agree with that point about the mentality in that moment of having a bit of bad luck go against them and it seemed to affect them?

17:22Kit Shepard: Yeah, again, very uncharacteristic of the England team because they know that nothing worth having comes easily and if a goal is chalked off from a VIA decision, no matter whether it's clear and obvious or whether it's marginal like it was against France last night, it's still the decision and England know that everyone knows now with VAR modern football you have to almost psychologically prepare differently you know you almost have to expect the worst and then you're not disappointed with the outcome of a decision so it would surprise me that England crumbled after that moment mentally and obviously they only know the answer to that we only see what happened and the way the game prevailed from that point onwards France then naturally gathered a foothold in the game because psychologically it also benefits the opposition if you know the team you're playing against has a goal chalked off you know you're naturally going to be buoyed by that moment so it's a really interesting dynamic the VAR adds to the game it's nothing new we're not you know inventing this conversation here um it's it's been around for a while um I would worry if that from an England camp perspective if that derailed them because they know better than that they're experienced group of players and not necessarily in age but you know we've played champion players and played in champions league finals over the years and it's nothing new for them so I can't really have that as an excuse yes it was unlucky um but the the bigger one I'm sure you're going to come on to it Tom was was the next one was the decision in the build-up to Sandy Baltimore's goal which made it 2-0 yeah absolutely um that is exactly where I was going to go next see whether Kit thinks I'm being soft on that one as well but Izzy you've got the floor so you go to me to me not foul um sorry no oh my god why Why did I say that?

19:02Kit Shepard: It is a foul. It's a foul. It's an absolute foul because if you watch it back in slow motion, it was Lacroix on Russo, top end of the pitch, really high risk tackle, but high reward for France. And I just think Lacroix goes in with the wrong foot the way that she tackles Russo. And that means she's off balance. She falls to the floor, takes Russo with her, and then her right foot that she lunges in with touches the ball into the path of, I think it might have been Gras-Grayor or Jean-Francois, I can't remember who it was, in that advanced position at that moment. But they fed Baltimore with the ball and then England are caught on a transition and Baltimore, you know, gets a little fortuitous and sticks in the back of the net.

19:46Kit Shepard: But for me, it was overly aggressive from Lecrasse and I'm really surprised that VAR awarded that.

19:52Izzy Christiansen: Kip? Yeah, I don't think you're being soft on this one, Tom. Oh, thank God. I think it was a foul as well. Thank God, I've won him over. I think it was a foul. I think it was right on the borderline of clear and obvious, which is sort of why I don't like VAR, because it feels so much jargon and so much grey area. But this is my frustration with the offside. The offside is, you know, we're sat here going, and you are saying, oh, maybe it was a little, a millimetre of a hip, or we're doing this exact science, and then that tackle is just given on a complete opinion of a referee in that moment. There's no exact science for that.

20:31And yet if we were applying the same stringent tests percentage-wise, it's a foul, isn't it?

20:37Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, our friends at the PGMOL or the IFAB would say that offside is a black and white issue and therefore there's no kind of clear and obvious threshold whereas fouls, there's more of a grey area. So that's what I imagine what they would say. But yeah, I think England were. they're unfortunate on both and on the second one it probably was a foul and again they had a right to feel a little bit aggrieved and Serena Fegan was very expressive kind of uncharacteristically so after the the goal had gone in however it it doesn't excuse kind of what happened it doesn't excuse it but that foul yeah it is a case of you know we mentioned I think it was Izzy mentioned earlier France winning a lot of 50 50s and I talked about misplaced passes and things but there was also lots of moments where the ball just didn't quite bounce for England I know that's I know I'm now making excuses for them but there I did feel for them in some ways with those decisions going against them and I mean in the second half there was the foul by Karchawi on Leah Williamson which I was watching going in any other game that would be a red card on VAR yeah am I wrong England were unlucky no doubt about it and I think that was actually the worst of the three decisions.

21:54Izzy Christiansen: I thought that was a red card. So yeah, England did get unlucky and probably deserved to lose the game. Both things can be true, as I know someone sometimes says on this podcast. Yes, our pal Gregor Robertson's favourite catchphrase. Just before we take a quick break, we still have loads more to discuss. Let's just finish on some positives, if there are any, and it's fine to say there are not. Any positives, Izzy, from England's performances, be it players, be it substitutions, be it tactics changes, that last 10 minutes at the end?

22:25Kit Shepard: I would say cobwebs have been dusted off. Splash of cold water in the face, on the chin, to take it front up. And now England have the opportunity to bounce back. And I think if there was to be a performance like that, good to get it out of the way early on. We know that this is a difficult group. Netherlands and Wales present, you know, very much different challenges to France. But I just think it's, I can't really put it any other way other than splash of Cold War in the face, wake up call. And they know that they were not at the levels which they know they can play at, which I guess is the exciting part of all that.

23:04Izzy Christiansen: Kit, any positives for you? England have been inconsistent for at least six months. And some of their best results recently have come after some of their worst performances. They beat Spain four days after a really underwhelming draw in Portugal. and they then beat Portugal after losing in Belgium and after all the chaos around Mary Arps and they beat Portugal 6-0. So if we're going by that trend, then England are in for a famous win on Wednesday. So let's go up that attitude. Fighting talk from Kit Shepard already and we've only done part one of this podcast. Loads more still to come, but it is time for a quick break, which means it's time to see if Kit Shepard can redeem himself with this quiz question.

23:46Beth Mead finished top scorer jointly at Euro 2022 with which other player? Find out after the break.

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26:10Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Izzy Christensen and Kit Shepard with me on this special Euro 2025 show. Kit, are you going to tell the truth and reveal to the listeners that you absolutely bottled it in that break and decided not to give us the answer to the quiz question?

26:28Izzy Christiansen: I was just being a team player. I thought I'd let someone else get the glory. You laid it across the box for Izzy to tap it in at the back post. The answer, which was Izzy?

26:37Kit Shepard: Alexandra Pop. Alexandra Pop finishing alongside Beth Mead with six goals at Euro 2022. Now, back to Euro 2025 and that first game. And I just wanted to finish, which kind of links into the Netherlands, because Izzy, you talked about Grace Clinton. I thought it was very interesting watching Serena Vigman turn to her bench and throw on a lot of players, some of them for tactical reasons. Obviously, Jess Carter going off as well. But Michelle Ajaeman coming on, Ella Toon coming on, Chloe Kelly, both coming on in the 60th minute. And then Grace Clinton, as you said, Was this a sign that Wiegmann would have already been thinking, is he, there's other contenders here, I might be making some changes for the Netherlands?

27:18Kit Shepard: Yeah, I think so. And I think she probably will have assessed the shape of the squad this morning. You know, the substitutes who played probably 30 minutes or less will have all trained this morning. And that's what the top managers do. They assess the body language and the way that these players are training, you know, because you want to get yourself in the eyeline. of Serena Wigman and her coaches ahead of the game on Wednesday night. And of course, there'll be a game plan ready to go. And some of that might be changed depending on what the coaches or the technical staff at England thought of the Netherlands opening game against Wales.

27:52Kit Shepard: They might have been able to pick up on a few bits that they can exploit. But yeah, I think Grace Clinton entering the fray against France was really important to get her up to speed with the tournament football. I think, you know, a slight thing we need to remember is there's a lot of players in that squad who are experiencing their first major tournament. So hindsight in terms of throwing them in for the first match might have been a little bit too much for them perhaps. But then you could also argue, well, why are they in the squad then if they can't handle the pressure? But I hope that Grace Clinton will play a part in that Netherlands game because I think that's an area where England, we all said looked a little bit loose in that department.

28:35Kit Shepard: and I think Grace Klingman can come in and add a little bit of power into that midfield for England. Kit, what about you? Ajimang is someone you'd been picking out during the Women's Super League season saying she's a really, really talented player. What did you make of Wigman turning to the bench in this manner? Obviously, she was 2-0 down, but quite a statement to ring as many changes as she did in the second half.

28:56Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think Ajimang will continue to play that impact substitute role when you need a goal, partly because she is obviously very inexperienced in the international level and also Alessia Russo is not getting defroned as the starting number nine anytime soon. I think the substitutes were good when they arrived just quickly on going back to the France game. Maybe Izzy might disagree on this but I thought they arguably came slightly too late. Obviously we only had Clinton coming on in the 77th minute and no changes before the hour which is kind of Wiegmann's approach. she doesn't go away from plan A easily.

29:34Izzy Christiansen: I thought Wigman was a little bit slow there and she'll have to be more proactive going into the Netherlands game, both with her selection from the start and also if things don't go to plan once the game begins against the Dutch.

29:50Kit Shepard: Yeah, I think on that kit, just quickly, I actually expected maybe a change at half-time yesterday for England. And Wigman sent out the same team for the second half and probably wanted to give it 10 to 15 minutes to see if there was a reply, but there wasn't. And then that left the subs 30 minutes. And then by that point, the game was quite stop-start and the subs didn't really get into the rhythm of the game as much as they would have liked. I thought Beth Mead was uncharacteristically loose in possession against France. I'd be surprised if she actually plays against the Netherlands. Toby Kelly probably didn't see enough of the ball as she'd have liked to have done.

30:29Kit Shepard: but I think this could be a game where, going back to your point Kit, we could see Lauren James feature on the right wing in front of Lucy Bronze and that gives you the option to have an extra midfielder on the pitch as well. Perhaps Clinton, Toon, maybe whoever Sweeney Vigman nods towards in that department. But yeah, I think Lauren Hemp as well didn't get in the game much as she would have liked to have done. So I think there's more to come and that's where I said about the exciting part but it would be fascinating to see who she selects based on that performance and that loss against France.

31:02Izzy Christiansen: There's been a little bit of talk about maybe turning to the back three. Would you consider that at all for England or is that too much of an overreaction after one loss?

31:12Kit Shepard: No, it's not an overreaction at all. I actually had this conversation in the car last night on the way back to the hotel in Zurich from the game. around, I mean, I floated the idea of having Lauren Hemp and Lucy Bonds as wingbacks. Jess Carter, left, centre of a back three. Alex Greenwood in the middle, or maybe Alex on the left, Jess centre, Leo on the right of a back three. Two midfielders in there, Stanway Walsh, and then three attackers, probably in the form of James Russo and Hemp. I think that would look good as well, and it would disrupt the Dutch shape. I would imagine a little bit, but it again just depends where Riegeman identifies as the biggest threat that the Netherlands can pose and who she thinks can overpower them in that department.

32:00Very interesting idea about what they do next against the Netherlands. We'll return to that theme just at the end. Izzy, I just wanted to quickly ask about Alessia Russo. She was one of the players you picked out in the preview show, left slightly isolated, I felt, by England's play. You've mentioned some of the players not being good enough in possession. would that change in formation or is it change of players personnel around her because there are a few and obviously she took the goal that was disallowed incredibly well great reactions in the box like like all good strikers do there were moments when she was running at the France defense and you thought we need to you know get her on the ball or give her chances to get to you know

32:38Kit Shepard: how can England do that yeah it's interesting well England came out in the second half with a game plan, which was to pierce the ball through the spine of France's team because there was two passes I noted early on that were fizzed through from Alex Greenwood and Leah Williamson into Russo's feet. Now, what that pass does is it narrows everyone on the France team up centrally. They almost swarm that central area and then it creates space out wide for England. So, obviously, the message at halftime was something along the lines of we need to find the nine quickly and that nine being Russo who's really capable of coming into those areas and spinning you know turning on the ball and linking up in that way and I think the idea around that was just to disrupt France's shape more so you could see it was a really clear idea passed on to the players at half time but I would say Russo's at her best when she's doing things like that um coming in linking up i mean i remember describing her similar to harry kane in terms of the way he links play and um i have no qualms in comparing female players to men's players so i think it really you know helps the audience understand really what type of player that player is um and i think russo is so capable of dropping in and also spinning um and yeah we of course would like to see on the ball but she's so patient as well like she knows she only needs one or two chances in a game.

34:05Kit Shepard: And international football is so cagey at times that those touches, you've just got to make sure when you do get on the ball, you've got to be clean and sharp and have your idea ready for when the ball arrives at your feet. And just before we finish with a look at the Netherlands and some of those tactics that we've already touched on slightly, Izzy, Kit and I were discussing about the morale in this England camp. You've talked in the first half of the show about a maybe much needed, you know, splash of water in the face, cold water to wake up and, you know, get focused here. But what will the mood in the camp be like?

34:35You've been in these camps at an international level in good times and bad. What will the players be thinking, you know, on this Sunday and going into the week ahead of that game on Wednesday?

34:45Kit Shepard: Yeah, I think, I mean, post-match, listening to Alex Greenwood, Leah Williamson in particular. I mean, Alex, you know, I know her so well and she's got, you know, such an incredible winning mentality. She was really frustrated listening to her, you know, after the game. and Leah Williamson equally so and described the defending at times as emotional defending. You know, sort of a really fair, honest assessment. And I have no issue with the players being like that because it shows raw emotion and it's hard after the heat of the battle and, you know, you come off the pitch within five, 10 minutes, there's a microphone in front of your face.

35:18Kit Shepard: It is hard. But I think that the morale, you know, one game does not define the team and on the flip side, the game does not define who France are either. it doesn't mean to say they've cracked the Da Vinci code and they're now going to go and win the Euros. Like England know what they're good at. They know what their biggest strengths are. And that one of those things is their togetherness. And one result doesn't rock it, you know, too much. It's about, you know, keeping a steady head and literally putting the game in the bin. After you've analysed it, you need to put it in the bin, put the lid on and disregard it and move on.

35:55Kit Shepard: And I know the players in the squad will be feeling okay. and they'll just want to get back out on the training pitch and get the ball popping about again and get ready for the Netherlands. Put the France game in the bin. You heard it here first. That is exactly what I am going to do. Bang, it's in the bin. I'm leaving it behind. 35 minutes of analysis. It's time to look at the Netherlands. This huge, huge game on Wednesday night. Kit and Izzy, just give the listeners a sense, because this is now a huge game. Everyone back home will be watching this game. Everyone will be tuning in. Give us a sense of what England are up against.

36:26Kit, I'll start with you, with this Netherlands team.

36:29Izzy Christiansen: Probably a side that's not quite as stacked in terms of the fast electric attack as it's France, but it's still a really, really talented team with proven winners at club and international level. A lot of readers and a lot of listeners will have heard of players like Viviana Miedema, who's the WSL's top scorer, was at Arsenal for seven years and is now at Manchester City. She looks in decent form. She scored a goal, a tournament contender against Wales on Saturday, yesterday. So they're very talented. And there's also Jill Raud, who's just left Man City. You've got Esme Brutts from Barcelona. A lot of excellent players and many more from the WSL.

37:15Izzy Christiansen: So that'll be a tough test for England. They're ranked 11th in the world. France were ranked 10th. you have an idea of they're as good as France pretty much according to those rankings. So it's a group of death for a reason. And England, as we said before the France game, are going to have their work cut out. Izzy, would you agree with all those suggestions about the Netherlands?

37:36Kit Shepard: Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, looking at the Netherlands starting XI against Wales, and like Kit said, they're, you know, full of talent. But they are the type of players who want things their own way. and I find that quite interesting. Like, I would say England, if you take what France's game plan was against England, I think England needs to do that to the Netherlands because, you know, Pelova, van der Donk, Roar, you know, they're all ball players in the midfield. Kapitain brings, you know, running power, Gronen, you know, technically really gifted and kind of provides sort of a bit more of an engine at the base of the midfield.

38:18Kit Shepard: but I think they're players who don't want aggressive high pressure so I think England need to go into the game with the French mindset and what they did to England and push them into areas they don't want to be in, disrupt their rhythm and obviously the Netherlands will have expected to have beaten Wales but we all know that it's not as easy as that and they had to work really hard to get the opening goal against them and obviously it was a terrific finish from Miedema, who's a player that, you know, if it is Alex Greenwood and Lee Williamson again at the back, you know, whether there's a shape change or not, whoever is there is going to have to be so on guard because half a yard, Miedema can do anything she wants with a football.

38:58Kit Shepard: So there's a lot of threats there, but I think, you know, the way forward is England. You need to be really aggressive against them.

39:06Izzy Christiansen: How do you stop a player like Miedema, is he? Because this is oversimplifying it, but she's almost like the opposite of the threat France poses. She doesn't really get behind loads or be barging players to the floor or anything like that. It's more technical stuff, as we saw of her goal against Wales. She kind of shifted it onto her left, back onto her right, and then just curled it into the top corner. So what unique challenges does she pose and how will England, I guess, have to adjust her game plan to stop her?

39:38Kit Shepard: Yeah, I think the ball is like a magnet to her feet. And we've seen the time and space she was given against Wales, the one way, chop back the other, shifting onto her favoured right foot. It's just an absolute snapshot of what she can do. England need to be uptight, but you also need to get so tight that you've also got the capabilities to adjust as well. And I think that's a lot. I do see a lot in the landscape of women's football around the sort of overcommitment to early and defensive actions. And we saw a prime example of that in Miedema against Wales yesterday on Sunday and Saturday. And I just think that it's the supply line again to her feet.

40:25Kit Shepard: I saw what she's trying to do is when the Netherlands get beyond Miedemaar into those wide areas, Miedemaar tends to drift back and sort of go against the flow of the tide and look for those little sort of cut-back balls on the edge of the box. So England needs to be really wary of her movement in and around the box and try not to guess what she's going to do. You have to really be aware and on guard and not let her get those moments where she can be so sharp because she needs literally a split second to find the back of the net. It is, as you said in your first column on the Times website, Izzy, it's a different game plan entirely from the France game.

41:01Let's finish then with this game plan for the Netherlands game, this huge game, this must win game. We've touched on some themes already, but I want firstly from both of you, what do England need to do better? And I've got some top level notes here. Get Russo involved and pass better. This is why I'm not a football manager, ladies and gentlemen. but see if you guys before we get into who might play and maybe tactical shape what do England need to do better in terms of what they're doing on the pitch regardless of who's playing Kit I'll start with you

41:30Izzy Christiansen: they need to defend more intelligently than they did against France I think that's what Williamson was alluding to when she talked about the emotional cheap defending was the line she used they just need to defend a little bit smarter not kind of throwing themselves into challenges as individuals as much as they were against France, I think it's really important. And then going forward, it's just being a bit more assured. It's the basics, like you said, about just getting those passes nice and crisp, first of all, and then getting your match winners into positions where they can win the games, getting James into one-on-ones, getting Hemp into one-on-ones, which they rarely did against France.

42:18Izzy Christiansen: And yeah, just trying to get them the board and say, go and win us the game. Izzy?

42:23Kit Shepard: Yeah, they need to find, you know, the cohesion in the final third. But before they find that, I think they need to be aware that, you know, there is a battle to be won in the middle of the pitch first. And it's almost like a case of earning the right to play. But yeah, I think the attacking connections didn't quite click for England. I think Adjaman when she came on she looked you know sharp a threat but it's unrealistic to say England they're going to start the game playing like that long ball football you know picking up the seconds looking for drop downs in the box albeit quite effective at the back end of the France game but totally different landscape against the Netherlands and yeah I think it's about that connection and again that's Serena Wigman's eyes all on the players in training over the next couple of days to go, right, who looks the sharpest?

43:14Kit Shepard: Who's going to give me what I'm looking for? And also a big thing in football, I believe massively in, is connections and relationships on the pitch. Yeah. Who's combining well with each other and who's going to make something happen?

43:28Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, go on, Kit. I was just going to ask Izzy, we talked about it a bit in our preview column, but it's going to be such a big storyline, it's worth coming back to. So how does the fact that Serena Wigman know so many of these Dutch players, obviously being their manager for so long, how does that influence the game on Wednesday?

43:47Kit Shepard: Probably makes it easier because there's no second guessing with what they're trying to do. And she knows the players inside out. She knows, you know, the Dutch football inside out. You know, she'll know how the federation, you know, have a landscape set out for how they want to look, how they're going to look moving forward. So she's well across that. But I think the main focus for England is how can they play better? Because England will know that on their day they can beat anyone, but it's how they get to the point where they are on their day against the Netherlands. Because this game now is poised quite precariously for England to go on and either progress into the last group game with a chance to progress into the knockout stages or on the flip side, worst case scenario is, you know, it could be fatal for the tournament progression.

44:38Kit Shepard: So everything's poised. And I just think the way that the Netherlands set up against England, I think they're going to have a little bit of arrogance, a little bit of confidence about them. And they'll feel in a good place. Kit, I'm going to ask you the same question you asked Izzy. You posed the idea of the switch to the 3-5-2. Do you think that is on the table? We talked about Serena Wigman not changing from plan A quick enough. she's maybe might be forced to do you do you think it might happen or do you think it's just something that you were you were teasing the idea of i think it is certainly possible but

45:13Izzy Christiansen: i think knowing what we know about the even as we say she does like to stick with plan a and also the fact that england have played the back for i think pretty much every game since since the 2023 World Cup, apart from a random friendly against Switzerland, where half the 11 aren't in this squad. I think they'll stick with a bad four is what I'm trying to say. But I could definitely, I wouldn't be shocked if we saw them line up with three centre-backs against the Dutch. So finally then, Izzy, I'll start with you. What changes would you make to the starting line-up on Wednesday?

45:54Kit Shepard: Gosh, Tom, what a question. so difficult I think that right wing area now is a question mark I actually thought it was a question mark before the game against France I'm wondering whether Lauren James could be deployed there and then I think in the middle of the park something's got to change and I personally think Grace Clinton should come into the side, I could be totally off it there and Ella Toon plays but I think you know it could be a game for Grace Clinton to come in and stand for Mark on it

46:31Izzy Christiansen: Kit what about you? Yeah I wouldn't make sweeping changes probably just echo Izzy and I'd look at bringing in Clinton for the change would be Clinton for Beth Mead but that would involve James going to the right and Clinton playing centrally and then I think again Wiegmann needs to be open minded about the timing of her changes and they might need to become a little bit earlier than she's used to Right Right, and finally, Izzy, you thought it was a tough question asking what changes I would make. Now I'm going to ask for a prediction just to finish the show. Izzy, I'll start with you. A prediction for Wednesday night.

47:05Kit Shepard: 2-0 England. There we go. That's what we like. Kit, how about you? 1-0 England. Excellent. I'm going 2-1 England. Adjumang off the bench with a late winner. Huge drama. Izzy Christensen, Kit Shepard, thank you very much for joining me. Everyone, keep an eye out on the Times website for all of Kit's analysis from Switzerland and Izzy's next column for The Times. We'll be back later in the week to discuss a stirring victory for England against the Netherlands. Well, we hope so. We'll see you then.

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