WOMEN'S EURO 2025: England’s last gasp heroics

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1:21Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. England are in the final of the European Championships again. There was a remarkable comeback again. a late Michelle Adjumang equaliser again, a Chloe Kelly penalty again, and let's be honest, a bit of a poor performance again. I'm Tom Clark and joining me to try and make sense of it all, we have the women's football reporter for The Times and Sunday Times, Kit Shepard, and the former England international and Times columnist, Izzy Christensen. Izzy, no questions, no big, big sweeping statements, just your reactions to yet another bonkers game of football.

1:56well uh you can't really say much more other than uh as per lucy bronze's instagram caption which is are you not entertained i've got people back here at home in manchester asking about the game who hadn't even watched a game before the fever is well and truly here and everybody is absolutely entertained and it's just absolutely magical so many underlying connotations of elite sporting mentalities happening all over the park for England. And yeah, it's been one hell of a ride so far. Just before I go to Kit and ask him how it was in the stadium, is there any sense with you? I was watching this game going, I think they're going to win.

2:41Even at like 91, 92 minutes when they were losing 1-0, I still thought they'd probably score or at least get a good chance to score. You mentioned elite mentality then. Do you think there's a bit of that with this England team? The belief is so high. A bit, a lot. I think, you know, people probably questioned, again, the timings of the substitutions. But hindsight is they are absolutely perfect. It just needed one opportunity for Adjumang. And obviously the ball in was brilliant. I think it was Lauren Hemp with the delivery coming in, which it was interesting probably getting to it in more detail around the Chloe Kelly substitution as well, around the side in which she played.

3:20So many little subplots to look into. but I'll be honest with you, I sat on my sofa watching it last night and I was texting my mum and toward the end of the game, I said, this could be a bridge too far for England. So I'm very happy to admit how wrong was I and how stupid and foolish was I to write England off at that stage. You definitely wouldn't have been the only one. Kit, how was it in the stadium? Another bonkers night. These games seem to be following you around already in your young career. Yeah, it was crazy. I'd say it was just disbelief almost. So that's how I felt when Michel Adjouman got equal.

3:55I was just like, really, she's done it again. I just cannot quite comprehend that England have got this 19-year-old who wasn't really in the conversation to be in the squad six months ago is now saving their skin almost every time she steps on the pitch. It's amazing. And yeah, it was a very, very memorable night in Geneva. and yeah we go on to Basel for probably the ultimate test against Spain or Germany. Yeah absolutely we'll come on to that in the second half of the show. Coming back to this game Kit what's your assessment of this England performance because I intro'd there saying it was another not very good performance again.

4:36Is that fair? Was this better than France you know better than Sweden? Where do you think this performance was for England? I don't think it was much better to be honest maybe it didn't have the calamitous nature that parts of the france or sweden game did but england made a bit of a defensive lapse down the left side for italy's goal um i don't think they defended badly overall but they got caught out there but then after that they just didn't seem to be able to break italy down consistently They were being frustrated. They were being stifled. The chances that did come were missed. And I might disagree ever so slightly with Izzy here.

5:21I thought the substitutes came a bit too late. They came in the nick of time in the end. But I think, yeah, Wiedemann cut it very fine, bringing Kelly on in minutes 77 and Ajumann in 85. So, yeah, again, it goes back to this feeling of disbelief. I don't think England have played that well in this tournament. apart from maybe against the Netherlands and Wales, but they're one game away from immortality. Izzy, a couple of points to pick up there, but just firstly on that very basic premise from Kit and myself there, that England haven't played that well this tournament. What would you react to that?

5:55I think they've been patchy. I thought the ball domination in yesterday's game was brilliant. I thought that was, it's a very interesting system, the way that the Italians played a 3-4-3, a back five, a three and a two in the pressing areas when they were pressing high I thought their wing backs were exceptional I thought Olivier in particular was clearly on for a right back of the tournament award with Lucy Bronze but I think that Italy's shape really disrupted England's flow I thought they played that system well they have a very kind of large sense of unpredictability about them and I think they were really deservedly in front in that game.

6:42I don't necessarily think England were bad. They weren't their normal slick self, but I still think they moved the ball well. I still think... I think the biggest glaring thing about the England performance last night for me was whenever they did get the ball into wide areas and crossing positions, they had no numbers in the box, ever. It was just Russo, you know, lone ranger inside the box and it kind of played into Italy's hands a lot because they had three centre-backs on the pitch and they were able to get massive overloaded in defensive zones. So they were able to deal with England's threat and I just thought it's such a strange kind of concept that England's players had a tendency to drop out of the box and kind of go and support the player on the ball instead of getting in there, which kind of made sense to me as to why England didn't actually score until the very, very, very last minute.

7:34where it came from across, getting numbers around Russo. Sorry, it wasn't Russo. It was Agui Beaver Jones involved, wasn't it? And yeah, the finish was brilliant by Adjeman. Double nutmegs. Very, very cheeky to break the Italian heart. Yeah, I mean, Kit and Izzy, we've mentioned Michelle Adjeman so many times on this podcast, but slightly in passing and kind of just at the end, oh, and brilliant from Michelle Adjeman. She really stole the show. Izzy, just very quickly on that finish, you mentioned it there, but for a 19 year old in that moment because the ball dropped to her and I screamed shoot I'm sure everyone probably screamed shoot so just to take that touch that tees you up perfectly to pull off that finish through a crowd she's got some serious serious like mental strength hasn't she and just composure for a 19 year old or is it actually just that her youth gives her no fear whatsoever Probably the latter because I actually think looking at it back, it wasn't the best first touch I've ever seen inside the box.

8:35And she's got the kind of sharpness and athleticism to kind of compensate for the fact that her first touch wasn't perfect. In and around the box, you don't get that much time. I thought the touch was somewhat heavy, but equally the way that she then managed to hook her body around and fire it in, and I think in that situation, probably 90 % of players in that moment in the context of where the game was at snatch at that and sky it or don't find the composure required but she did and she hits it so true and clean and obviously it's gone through the defender and the goalkeeper's legs but still everything about it was like poetry in motion and yeah it was just it was really incredible you can't deny it was just the most amazing moment and probably one of the best moments ever in England football in history to get us to the final again.

9:29Yeah, absolutely. Kit, I'm going to give you the huge credit here of throughout the WSL season and in the build-up to this tournament, you had said to me on many occasions, Michelle Adjumang off the bench could be the one for England. I'm happy to reveal that. Kit Shepard, the Oracle, he sees it coming an absolute mile off. As I say, just tell us a little bit more about Michelle Adjumang as a player and her story in this England set-up because she is becoming now a household name and as Izzy says, an absolute hero among England fans. To be fair, I think I started, I joined the clam of Rajamane after she had scored a screamer of a volley 41 seconds into her debut.

10:06So I had evidence behind my hunch, but yeah, that's a good place to start. She's been at Arsenal since the age of six, but she's been on loan the last couple of years. She was at Watford last year, Brighton this year. England debut came last April in quite kind of nondescript fashion, it seemed. She was an injury replacement for a fairly low key game against Belgium. And England weren't playing well. And she came on and scored, as I say, scored a screamer with her first touch 46 after coming on. So that was the first sign that she was she was capable of the scarcely believable. We didn't see her again in an England shirt until the first game against France of the Euros where she came on and very nearly snatched a draw for England.

10:58And then again, she kind of went back on the bench and then resurfaced, as we know, against Sweden, got the equaliser there. And then got the equaliser again last night. It's unbelievable. It's then four England caps, all off the bench, all coming on in the 70th minute or later. And each time she's changed the game. It's unbelievable. And I want to talk to Izzy about the lob that hit the bar in extra time, just before England scored. Because A, I think I might have passed out if that had gone in because it was just ridiculous. But also it just looked like she was playing with kind of under 12s or something.

11:40She was just quicker than everyone, stronger than everyone, and then had the skill to nearly lob the goalie from 20 yards. Is that how it looks to you, Izzy? Do you know what? I totally forgot about that. And I mean, that was so good. Watching the slow motion replay back, the keeper was absolutely beaten. And again, just the technique attached to it. I mean, you can't really argue that she is one of the most natural instinctive finishers. that I've seen in a long time. Like, you know, things inside the box just seem to be so natural for her. It is such an art scoring a goal and her awareness and vision to try that lob and the way she catches the ball perfectly on the timing of the bounce.

12:32I know, and that would have been so special if that would have won it. And obviously she's buoyed in confidence after the goal anyway. but yeah that was Tom you're right it just looked like she was playing you know completely you know out of everyone else's depth Is that maybe what makes her special because it feels like you get these young players who might be really amazing athletes or they might have just a real natural finishing quality but Ajeman seems to have both is that kind of pairing of those skills make her potentially special? Yeah, I think so. I think it's, you know, fragile. She's so young and we had a really nice conversation about her on the Monday nightclub with Five Live on Monday evening, you know, head of this game against Italy.

13:25And, you know, it's going to, her role in the future in an England shirt will look totally different to this. But we are entering an era where strikers for England, And Agui Beaver-Jones, Michelle Adjuman, Alessia Russo, who's still absolutely there as England's number nine. We're entering a very competitive era and undoubtedly there will be more players coming through our pathway. But I think that she is something special to have that level of awareness, composure, audacity at that age to then come on and not be overawed by the stage or the occasion. I think it also speaks volumes of the environment that the England side have created as well, both players and staff, around protecting her but also giving her the platform to be unleashed.

14:17She's proven to be England's saviour twice and I think to do it more than once shows that you are special. and I'm very excited, I'm sure, with many other people around the country to see how her career unfolds. But for now, enjoying the present and being where she is, it's pretty remarkable. Yeah, there's loads of issues from the game that I just wanted to go through, which we'll come to in a sec. But as we're on, Michelle Adjumang, I feel like the big talking point between now and the final is, right, Serena, do we stick or twist? And, you know, Izzy, you said that the substitutions came at the right time.

14:53And Kit, you thought they were a little bit late. I've just got a stat here from Hamza, our colleague, who said he came across this stat that he thought was fascinating. England's goal difference per 90 minutes is plus 4.03 better when Michelle Adjumang is on the pitch compared to when she is not. The player with the next highest figure is Chloe Kelly with plus 2.3. Now, obviously, Hamza then went on to say that this is obviously affected by context because when those players come on, it's when England are desperate for a goal and you're throwing balls into the box and things. But just listening to you there, Izzy and Kit talk about Ajumanga as a player, one of these natural talents who seems to find a way of scoring a goal.

15:30Izzy, do you A, understand the clamour from your average fan who says, right, get them both on at the start? And B, do you think there's any sense that there will be a change from Serena Vigman for Sunday? It's funny because as soon as the final whistleblow England were celebrating, get the shots on TV of the players doing their bits on the pitch it came into my mind when the camera was panned on Chloe Kelly it really became obvious to me that I think she will start the final but not Adjumang, I think we all know the assignment for Michelle Adjumang, she knows the assignment more importantly which is to come off and do something special and I think I just think my I don't know Lauren James had ice on her ankle at halftime you know I don't know what that is where you know where that leaves her whether it might be an enforced or tactical change but either way if Chloe Kelly did start the game and Lauren James was fit to play you've got Lauren James off the bench which would I would 99.9 % say would have a similar impact as Chloe Kelly has had off the bench in the last few games so I would say that is the only one where I can see as an obvious change.

16:51I could be totally wrong, but I think Chloe Kelly has done. It's not really about working your way into the starting XI like club football is. It's more about what's required. You know, tournament football, we all know is very different, but I think it could be Chloe Kelly time from the start against either Germany or Spain. Do you think that comes back to a point you made earlier about Hemp switching to the other flank and Kelly and it a bit more two wingers who maybe this is very simplistic but have similar attributes of beating players and being able to put balls in the box that maybe it's a simpler way of playing where the other way of Lauren James on one wing and Lauren Hemp on another wing you have that modern football thing of two wingers who are very different players and that actually England are better off with a Kelly-Hemp combination is that is that what is that what you're getting at there do you think i think i think against italy when chloe kelly came on she came on on the right um so she was cutting inside on her left and then delivering the balls with her left foot and i just didn't think it was having the desired effect whereas they actually switched and it was interesting because hempo then came out to the right and that's where the goal ended up coming from because if i remember rightly adjaman kind of ended up with the second phase i I think Beaver Jones was in and around.

18:08It involved first contacts. But it came from Lauren Hemp's in-swinging delivery. And, you know, Lauren Hemp is naturally left-footed. So the fact that they switched, I was all for it. Because if you think back to the Sweden game, Chloe Kelly's huge substitution impact came from the left-hand side. So I was like, okay, we're better now. Chloe's out on the left and Hempos come on the right, which tendencies are that she's going to cut inside. and that's exactly where the goal came from. So I would like to see Chloe, I think Chloe would start on the right and Hempo would be on the left. But I think that if something was to change, and also you've got to remember Lauren Hemp, like she is a beast because she's also missed, you know, the back end of the season through injury.

18:54She's got herself into a physical condition where she's playing, she's playing extra time and she just keeps churning out these performances. and like to think about her the back end of her WSL season it's absolutely incredible and she's been such you know so consistent for Riegemann and throughout this tournament I think massive kudos to her as well probably a player who isn't getting as much limelight for obvious reasons because others are arguably outshining in terms of goals and stuff but I think she's been absolutely magnificent as well Kit I'll bring you in in just a second but Izzy just a final point on that you talked about Michelle Adjumang understanding the assignment in relation to Alessio Russo then are we seeing a bit of a parallel with Euro 2022 where of course you had Ellen White leading the line Alessio Russo off the bench again quite a simplistic take from me but again for your kind of everyman fan is that what you're saying when you say Michelle Agyman has an assignment and a role and it fits perfectly for a 19 year old off the bench yeah and if you go back to the games where Agyman hasn't featured Wales and Netherlands did we need her against Wales and Netherlands?

19:59no so she's only been called upon when absolutely desperate times calls for desperate measures and clearly that's the psych piece around her ability to enhance the team's impact in those moments whereas on the contrary to that you've also got Aggie Beaver-Jones who's coming against Netherlands and she's coming against Wales she scored and those are the games where it's more of an Aggie game and the games where it's really desperate I know Aggie got called in last night against Italy. But it was, I think, it was more due to fatigue with Russo. So yeah, it was almost like Russo, no, Russo's impact can be, the sum of her parts can be made up by Aggie and Michelle Aguiman.

20:44And I think it was kind of like a two for one deal there. Russo off both of them on. So I just think it's just great squad management, to be honest. Yeah, really interesting. Kit, your take on some of Izzy's points there? Yeah, I can see Kelly starts in the final, particularly if they play Spain. When Arsenal beat Barcelona in the Champions League final a couple of months ago, Kelly starts the game. And just, I think we've talked about it before, while she's an excellent direct runner and makes stuff happen in attack, she's also a really spiky, tenacious defender. And if you're playing a team like Spain, or even Germany, two teams that may have more of the board than England, And Kelly's a good person to knock them off their rhythm.

21:28Frankly, that's what she did in that Champions League final. On Ajiman, it feels tantalizing to me to star her. And it's probably just simplistic, but I just fear if we go with the same formula of the courts in the semifinal, where she's come on as the saviour, England may be leaving it too late. again especially if it's against Spain you can see Spain is so good England could be two or three down by the time Ajman comes on um and that might be even beyond her to bring her back so I don't know am I am I am I getting ahead of myself saying screw it you need to go Ajman from the start rough him up even if she gives only 45 minutes is that just is that not how professional football actually works she can't she won't start she won't start sorry and if she She does brilliant, happy days.

22:25She's deserved it, but you don't always get what you deserve in football. Is there an element with Wiegmann not protecting her, but just managing her as someone who managed? We've talked so much about squad. You mentioned squad management, managing these players that you saw Serena Wiegmann with Michelle Adjomang at full time with an arm around her shoulder, both of them smiling and kind of gritting, like it's the perfect plan. It's like they've kind of planned it this way all along and that actually maybe disrupting that would upset the balance of things. Yeah, I can't. I don't know. I know football fans around the country would be like, she scored twice now, she deserves to play.

23:04It just doesn't work like that, unfortunately. It's like, go back to the men's heroes in Germany last summer, like Oli Watkins scores the winner against the Netherlands, takes England to the final. It's like, oh, Oli Watkins should start the final. No, no, no, Harry Kane plays. And we all know that. and it's the same sort of situation really, you know, but obviously fast forward a year and different personnel, et cetera. But I just think that like, Angyman might not get on in the final. Like that's the hilarious reality of the situation this team's in right now. And I think just a quick one on the evolution of the England team.

23:42You come into the tournament with a massive target on your backs as being the holders of the competition and everyone wants to beat you. everyone finds extra 10-15 % in their performances to play against you, to dethrone you. Italy came seconds away from that and they obviously failed. And then I think fundamentally England have had to do something different in order to evolve. And to me, the most obvious evolution that we can all see is the Adjimang impact from the bench is absolutely Serena Regan's wild card. And it's just worked, hence why we are in this situation. where they're embarking on another European final on Sunday night.

24:20Absolutely fascinating. Loads more still to come, but it's time for a quick break and a quiz question. Who started at left back in the 2022 final against Germany, even though it wasn't her preferred position? Nice and easy one for you this time, Kit. Find out after the break.

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26:52Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Izzy Christensen and Kit Shepard with me. Kit, you're on fire. Like Michelle Adjumang, straight in with the answer to the quiz question, which was? It's Rachel Daly. Rachel Daly. I feel like the fact that I've got one quiz question wrong in all these podcasts has really been held against me. I wasn't going to bring it up. I wasn't going to bring it up. You brought it up. It's clearly, it's got to him. It's living in his head rent free this, isn't it, Izzy? He needs to let it go. Speaking of someone who wasn't phased by a potential failing, we talked about Chloe Kelly in the first half of that show in relation to the final and the things she brings on that wing.

27:33we have to talk about that penalty Izzy up she stepped again the routine again and I'm watching it going surely she's not going to miss surely she's not going to miss and she misses and then taps in the rebound and then still wheels away with the calm everyone calm it's okay I'm here I'm here and a brilliant celebration by the corner flag I mean we talked about her being iconic in the last show she is remarkable in terms of her stature and personality isn't she? Yeah lives for it live for these moments. Yeah, the three likely sources to take a penalty, Lucy Bronze, Alex Greenwood, Chloe Kelly.

28:10And as the referee was arguing with, or should I say, the Italian players were arguing the decision with the referee, Lucy Bronze holding the ball, Alex Greenwood being involved. If you're the goalkeeper for that minute, you're probably thinking, right, well, you obviously are going to think who on earth is taking this penalty. Yeah. Bearing in mind, Lucy Bronze's previous penalty. Alex Greenwood, solid penalty taker, despite the one she missed against Sweden. And then, of course, there we go. How could we all forget? Chloe Kelly steps up. Will that have been, as well as that gamesmanship, sorry, and game management, that's a bit of protection, isn't it, for Chloe Kelly from her teammates, isn't it?

28:53So that she doesn't have to stand there with the ball thinking about it. That's what Lucy Bronze was doing, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. That's what they're doing. They're just holding out, holding the moment for her. And I think the time that Chloe takes to, she kind of made everybody in the stadium believe she was the referee because she had full control. In that moment, there must have been a good 15, 20 seconds where she waited, you know, since spotting the ball. She stood over the ball. She stepped back. I would have bet all of everything I own that she would have scored. And then, of course, Kepa chooses the right way and she reacts quickly to the rebound and there we go.

29:38The rest is history. But a little shout out there as well to Ella Toon. You watch her run back to run into the box to get the second ball. She was also there to tap it home as well. Chloe just beat her to it. But, yeah, it was such a huge moment from a huge player. who's absolutely loving life right now. Yeah. Kit, what was it like in the stadium? I mean, actually, just very quickly, for all of us, are we definitely going with a definite penalty for this? Because I think, you know, in a tournament where I would say the referees have been letting challenges go, you know, think back to that France game and that challenge on Leo Williamson and stuff, it can be just a yes or no or on the fence.

30:16Is he definitely a penalty for you or a bit fortunate maybe? A bit on the fortunate side. Yeah. But yeah, you can't do that in the box. But I am hedging to a lucky penalty, but I wouldn't quite say lucky. I'd just say like little bit lucky. Little bit lucky. I'd agree with you. I think little bit lucky is a good way of putting it. Kit? Yeah, soft, but didn't think it should have been overturned. Yeah, soft but a foul. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but I think if I was Italian, I would probably be thinking there were probably 10 of those fouls in the game that didn't get called and then the ref decided to call one in the 170th minute maybe.

30:55But I don't think it's a huge... This is not a travesty that was given. And then on the penalty kit, we're talking about Ella Toon steaming in there. You were able to call that it was Chloe Kelly that got that? I mean, I think there were a few people struggling to work out who'd got the final tuck. Nah, I thought it was Ella Toon for a good two or three minutes and then watched the replays and thankfully noticed in time for her to file anything. The challenges of the press box. Yeah, Toon kind of wheeled away. It looked like she was celebrating, I think, yeah. I think, as Izzy says, you know, when you've played all, you know, not gone off, she played 120 minutes or whatever, and she's reacted first.

31:35I think Ella Toon's well within her rights to run away celebrating because she's got there just at the same time. She wants to be part of it as well. Fair play. Yeah, she times her run from the outside of the box brilliantly, to the point where Italy were asking the ref to check for any encroachment, which thankfully that wasn't, again, just for the sake of my match report, if nothing else. But yeah, Kelly got the final touch. And I think she can even make missing penalties look cool, was my conclusion from that. The way it's just like, yeah, calm down. This was always part of the plan. So yeah, another very, very memorable and stressful moment.

32:13Yeah, absolutely. Izzy, you talked about Lauren Hemp in the first half of the show and it made me think that it's worth maybe just giving you and Kit the floor to talk about some players, maybe some slightly unsung heroes and impressive players from this tournament so far. Esme Morgan, of course, starting this game and playing the full match and looking pretty assured for most of it. That's just one example from my point of view. Any players that you think deserve a shout-out that aren't necessarily grabbing the headlines in the way that Ajumang and Chloe Kelly are? I would go down the route of Alex Greenwood and Kira Walsh.

32:48I think in the first half in particular, Kira's, if you watch the game deeply, like I do, like her manipulation of the Italian midfield was exceptional. Now, when you play in that role, you obviously help a lot in the passing out from the back and things like that. And she was killing off the Italian kind of midfield and press really well with a lot of her movement and a lot of her one-touch, two-touch play. So I think she was brilliant. And I think Alex Green has been absolutely outstanding. I think her consistency, her variation, her adaptability has proven really important for Vigman. And yeah, I think those two are the ones that I'd probably give a hat tip to because they've not really been mentioned much as well.

33:35We have mentioned her, but Hannah Hampton's worth shouting out big time, I think from last night, she made a incredible double save in about the 85th minute, the second when she was on the floor. And obviously it was one nil at a time. If that goes in, that's bye bye England. She also, there were a lot of awkward crosses and free balls that she dealt with brilliantly. I think the fact that we're just accepting that standard now for Hampton shows how far she's come on as a goalkeeper and what an excellent tournament she's had. So yeah, big shout out to her. And yeah, as you said Tom Esme Morgan first major tournament starts in a semi-final hasn't played loads at all for Vigman in the past year or so came in obviously it was an eyebrow raising cool with with Jess Cart having to make way after all she's been through but Morgan played pretty well maybe slightly at fault for the goal but calm under the ball a bit more mobile than maybe what England had before and yeah you probably expect her to start the final as well.

34:41Now we're recording this show on Wednesday before the big game between Spain and Germany. So we can't talk about who England are definitely going to be playing in that final. But Izzy, it's the classic podcast host, TV presenter host question, who would England rather play? And the answer is, well, you know, either, neither, both of them. Is there an answer to that question? Everyone seems to be leaning towards Spain as the favourites for this game and Spain as favourites for the tournament. but Germany obviously were brilliant in that game against France. They'd both be difficult tests for England, wouldn't they?

35:11Yeah, I think who would England rather play? I'd probably say Germany. Right. Why is that? Who do I think England will play? I think they'll be playing Spain. Yeah. I think the German races run. I think they hung on by a thread against France, albeit France, my pre-tournament dark horses, absolutely failed me miserably with how... I think you're all right there. Incompetent they were at breaking down a 10-player block. I think you're all right there. Don't worry. I think you're all right there. Yeah, I think people will still go, no, she knows what she's talking about. France looked excellent, I thought, throughout this tournament.

35:48Oh, I don't mind. And absolutely did a job on England. So I think you're definitely within your rights. Oh, that's very kind, Tom. Very kind. No, I'm very happy to admit I'm wrong on that occasion. but I think I think Germany had just been weird I don't know I'd be really surprised if they beat Spain but I also think this tournament has shown that absolutely anything can happen I covered Spain's quarterfinal match against Switzerland and Spain were so poor by their own standards so it's like how much can they raise upwards so yeah I can't wait to watch it tonight it'll be an interesting game but I fully expect Spain to be England's opponent Agree I think Spain are the best team in the tournament at least on paper I think they'll win tonight against a depleted Germany team and yeah if it was a Spain v England final there'd be fairly significant favourites wouldn't mean England couldn't win they obviously beat Spain at Wembley last February but Spain have superstars everywhere.

37:02It's actually quite similar to the kind of great Spain team on the men's side of about 15 years ago. Yeah. Real core of Barcelona players, ridiculous midfield depth, proven winners in pretty much every position. They're the team to beat for a reason. But as we say, this tournament's been unpredictable. I thought at least England would coast last night. So you never, never know. and yeah, as we've said throughout, England definitely can win this. Yeah, as we can't. Whoever they play, whoever they play. And as you say, England can win this because they have this winning mentality. And I just wanted to finish with a word on Serena Wiegmann.

37:40She's someone we discussed obviously at length on this podcast throughout the tournament. But last night's victory means that this is now her fifth major tournament final in a row. Absolutely bonkers achievement from a manager at any level of any walk of life, any part of the game in any sport. That is an unbelievable achievement, isn't it, Izzy? It is very, very impressive. I don't know. We are very lucky that she is so... She's transformed football in our country. We know that, women's football. And she's sort of taken the baton on from the previous managers and the previous set-up. And what she's done with this team is just defied odds at times.

38:27she is a genius and I'll stand by that. It's very strong words, but I think she is a tactical genius. I think the way that she's got this team equaling on some of its parts, quite often you see managers unable to get the best out of what they've got. And I just think she just continues to have this, such a clever, intricate eye for the game and how to piece together the future, if you like. By that I mean being a manager is like predicting the future. You've got to predict how a game is going to go, what's going to happen, who you're going to need. Preparing for a major tournament is the same.

39:03She always, always gets it right. To think I've heard people questioning her role at times is just absolutely hilarious. She's an absolute inspiration, a role model for many people. and she has, you know, everyone knows how lucky we are that she's the head coach of the English team. Okay, she maintained even through all this drama in the post-match press conferences and things, her kind of composure. I've really been enjoying Serena Vigman on the touchline in this tournament, I've got to say, through the kind of stresses of those moments when England have been behind to the euphoria of the victories and those goals.

39:43I think she's been a fantastic watch, if you like, for a viewer on the sidelines. Is she still keeping cool when it comes to these post-match debriefs? Yeah, for sure. She's very calm when she speaks to media afterwards. Even last night, there was obviously a question trying to bigger up, say fifth major tournament final, have you done it? And she gives a very humble answer saying how great everyone else is. That's her style and a big reason of why she's been so successful as it's never about her. and I do think perhaps this major tournament final of the five it might be the sweetest because she was under scrutiny before the tournament after what happened with Herbst and Bright and Kirby people were saying is does she have any flaws in the way she manages players and then at the start of the tournament after the France game it was did she get her tactics wrong I think there are probably some valid criticisms within there, but she's proven most of them wrong and she's proven that she's still an outstanding, outstanding manager.

40:48And if England win on Sunday and that's three Euros on the trot of her across two countries that haven't really done much else when she's not been in charge of them in the women's game, that she has to go down as one of the greatest international head coaches we've ever seen if she's not in that bracket already. Absolutely. Izzy, I'm sure you agree with that. I'm going to go with Spain because you both said how confident you are in Spain against Germany. England have played Spain twice this year already in the Nations League, a 1-0 win in February followed by a 2-1 defeat in June. If it is Spain, Izzy, can they do it?

41:26And how much better will they need to play than they have been? I do think they can do it, yeah. I can say that with confidence because Spain have really disliked any team that kind of gets up in their grill in their faces um this tournament they've wanted everything their way and they haven't looked as slick as they normally do and i would say neither of england but england have found that grit and that nastiness about them and have the like we said the impact from the bench as well and spain yeah they've got so many players that can do something special so so do we as well um so yeah i do i do believe we can do it um but i think there'll be a lot of tired legs in that england camp and having the extra day before the final than the opponent who played tonight those little things have a physical and a psychological advantage as well um so i think england will take great sort of positivity from that as well.

42:30And I'm sure Regman is doing everything with her staff to just manage emotions and expectations now in the lead up to the final and most importantly patching up some players and getting them ready to go and perform for what could be another 120. Absolutely. Gosh, I hope not. Kit, a final word from you? Again, if it's England, Spain, if, if, if, it feels like all logic points to a Spain win but this England team, they're getting pretty good at defying logic They should be home by now. They should have gone home last Thursday. They know how to beat Spain. They've got the players to do it, both of course at country level, but also the Arsenal lot can take some heart from beating Barcelona.

43:15So it can be done. It can be done. And maybe this is a tournament which England are just a team of destiny. It's starting to feel like that. And if it is Germany, it'll be a really interesting game as well because that'll be two teams that have defied the odds to get here so yeah England against big scary Spain or another good old fashioned England Germany final both pretty good ways to spend a Sunday evening Absolutely I'm excited and nervous already perfectly summed up by Izzy Christensen and Kit Shepard thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening make sure you keep your eyes peeled on the Times website for Izzy's latest column and the latest from Kit and the England camp We'll be back very soon and we'll be back to analyze and dissect that final.

44:00Gosh, I can't wait. We'll see you then.

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