Women’s Euros 2025: Will England defend their title?

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2:16focused on the big women's tournament this summer. I'm Tom Clark and joining me on this first preview show we have the women's football reporter for the Times and Sunday Times Kit Shepard and I'm delighted to welcome to the game podcast for the first time our special guest for Euro 2025. She played for Everton, Birmingham, Manchester City and Lyon winning the FA Cup, Women's Super League and the Champions League and won 31 caps for England. Izzy Christensen, welcome to the game podcast. Thank you very much. Always nice, that introduction. Yeah, you know, Kit, we need to work on your introduction, mate.

2:49I'm not going to lie. It's not quite stacking up quite as well as Izzy's, I've got to say.

2:52Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, I don't have Champions Leagues and England international appearances in my locker yet. Not yet. Not yet. There's still time for one so young. There's still a lot to achieve. Izzy, we are so excited to have you. So delighted that you're joining us for the tournament. You're out in Switzerland already. Me and Kit are still back in London. Kit's joining you very shortly. there's loads and loads for us to talk about but let's start with England the first half of this show will be all focused on England and before we get to the squad and what we can expect from the tournament I wanted to ask you about the narrative that has dominated so much of this build-up England's preparations players like Mary Earps dropping out of the squad retiring saying they're not going to be part of this team big big players big characters who formed part of that success only the couple of years ago what what do you make as a former pro as a former international who's been in these dressing rooms what do you make of the kind of build-up and what that's been like for England well it's always interesting going into a major tournament because there is always an inevitable amount of turmoil or some controversy or something that headlines you know each nation's preparation and that comes in ebbs and flows leading into the tournament as a player you want to make sure you finish the domestic season in good shape and you know carrying no sort of niggles or injuries into the off season as you start to prepare and get into that tournament prep with your national team and it has been interesting for England specifically with with Mary Erpes retiring from England duty she's had a superb career played with her many a time And, yeah, her rise to where she got to as England's number one and what she's achieved has been spectacular.

4:37You know, like many of us out there in the nation, I think it was a real surprise as well. And I think the timing of that news, which probably caused the biggest kind of ripple, what was the Mary Earps retirement? the timing I think has helped England and the fact that it's happened weeks prior to their real serious preparation has helped England and I think the way that Serena Vigman has handled it and managed it in the media and clearly studied the ship, I think it's been very admirable and England move on and Hannah Hampton goes into the tournament in terrific shape as England's number one I'm interested, you mentioned there about Serena Vigman, this is something that I discussed with Kit on a recent show.

5:22I just wanted to check with you what your view on her as a coach was, just generally before we get into this tournament, because you mentioned there her management of this situation. A hugely experienced coach. She's won international tournaments. She obviously came into the England job and gave this country its first major trophy in so many decades. I mean, there's no surprise with the calm and collected way she handled this situation, was there? There wasn't. And Kit will know Serena better than me, I would imagine, with the number of press conferences that you will have sat in, listening for Serena Viegman, speaking pre-post-match, in the build-up to games.

6:00And her record speaks to itself, like you said there, Tom. And my biggest sort of feeling around Serena Viegman is that I'm absolutely gutted I never played under. And she has been, I mean, the way I personally see football is the way that I see Serena Viegman's team set up. And for anyone who watched the Jamaica game, the last friendly before England head out to Switzerland, I just thought they looked so good. You know, the attacking, the forward play, you know, the combinations in the final third, they were slick. The players looked really fit, physically in great shape. And that's all with Serena at the helm.

6:39And you've got to remember Kit, I mean, I can't remember exactly when in terms of timeline. There were people not necessarily doubting Serena in the build up to this tournament. But there were people asking questions.

6:50Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, absolutely. There were people doubting Serena and they were in particular doubting her during that kind of chaotic nine days we had where Earps and Kirby retired and Millie Bright withdrew. And I think it's a marker of how good of the head coach she is and built on the things that Izzy has said that after those nine days, she kind of came out with her reputation enhanced. She was able to pay respects to the three players that had dropped out without, while still defending her own leadership style. She kind of managed to walk the tightrope perfectly. So she's fantastic at that side of the job, about the messaging.

7:33Izzy Christiansen: She inspires players. So many of this England team have come out and said what Serena has done for them as people. and then something that Izzy will be able to explain it in more granular detail. She's also a fantastic tactician. He's done it with different groups of players across different countries. And I mean, the FA are enamoured with Serena Vigman pretty much across the board. And you can understand why, because she is the complete package when it comes to head coach, it seems. Izzy, just before we move on to that Jamaica game that you've teed up already, just coming back to that point Kit makes there about tactically Serena Viegman is at the very top of her game and you mentioned that you were gutted to never have played for her just tell us a little bit more about what you admire so much about her tactical acumen generally just before we get on to the more specifics of the tournament yeah it's um the way that she plays for what she sets the team up with with a really nice balance of control aggression and almost sort of a of rooflessness around the players and I think she creates that in the environment you know that she builds and when she took over the helm of England she had to sort of iron out quite a lot of issues you know internally in terms of the space and where the team was at and where they could go because the feeling in that sort of transitional period in the last sort of five or six years with England was that always have the talent why have we never won and it's almost like She came in with a board rubber on a whiteboard, and she just rubbed everything out and started again.

9:08And the tactical way that she sets the team up is normally in a 4-3-3 system. And what I love most about it is the simplicity, but also the variation that that formation allows. And the way that she finds that variation is by tweaking and adjusting personnel in the team. And we have so many talented players within our England pool, and it's how you use them. And I just love what she's done with the likes of Beth Mead, Chloe Kelly, Lauren Hemp, Lauren James in the forward line. You know, you add layers now to the striking force that we've got. You know, Alessio Russo will inevitably lead the line, but Aggie Beaver Jones can play that.

9:47So can Lauren James in that role. And an area of the pitch which my eyes always, you know, go straight towards is the midfield and, you know, the emergence of Grace Clinton, the use of Jess Park in Manchester City and Kira Walsh being that sort of really understated pivot. I heard on her podcast, I really loved it, because the Euros in Switzerland, they described their number six for the Swiss, Leah Valti, who Arsenal fans will be very familiar with. She's a superb older midfielder. They described her as the Matterhorn. And I love that because Kira Walsh is our mountain. Now, I can't think off the top of my head what the highest mountain in the UK is.

10:26I should really know that. She can be our Scarfell Pike, Izzy. You know it really well. There we go, yeah. I should have thought, yeah. But that's what Kira is. She is our mountain in midfield and she's able to dictate the game. Yeah, I just think what Serena Egan's done with the team and progressed it is superb. And the final thing I would say, as Kit will know this as well, is she's actually really open to adapting as well, her system. A lot of coaches get very fixated in this is what we do. And fair enough, they believe in it. But also having the nows to tweak and any England fans will have seen that.

10:58at the World Cup in Australia a couple of years ago that she switched from a back four to a back three. And that had a huge impact on the way that England progressed in the tournament. And I thought that was genius. And they got to a World Cup final as a result.

11:10Izzy Christiansen: I just want to add one caveat to the, we are rightly having a bit of a Serena loving here and that's absolutely fine. She's a fantastic head coach, but it's always worth emphasising, especially as we go into a major tournament, which is inherently random, that football is a fickle business. And if England don't make it out of their group, which is probably unlikely, but certainly possible, given France and Netherlands are in there, then all those criticisms about Wiegmann's, all those questions, I should say, maybe not criticisms, about Wiegmann's woman management, about how she maybe treated the likes of Earps and Bryce and Kirby, they will all come up again.

11:51Izzy Christiansen: So it's results business, as the cliche shows, and Wiegmann has the credit in the bank. and you'd back her to pull it off. But if this time she doesn't, if things don't go England's way, then there will be a lot of questions and some criticism coming her way again. But we'll see what happens. Kit, you're a tough man to please. We're only 11 minutes into the first Women's Euros show, and he's already got Serena Viegman in his sights, honestly. I've said she's great. I've said she's brilliant. But results dictate all. Absolutely. Well, if results carry on like they did against Jamaica, England and Serena Beegman will have no problems.

12:28Izzy, you mentioned some of the many, many talented players they've got. 7-0 win against Jamaica. Goals from Beth Mead, Agui Beaver-Jones, Alessia Russo, Georgia Stanway, Lucy Bronze and two for Ella Toon. Obviously, this is a match that England were expected to win, but it is a big boost for them, isn't it, Izzy, to go into a tournament with a commanding win like this. And as you said, it was an exciting win in terms of the way they attacked. Yeah, I think if you could write how you want your last preparation game to go on paper and then revert back to it at the end of the game, which essentially is a game plan, isn't it?

13:03They certainly achieved that, England. The way that they handled the game, approached it, Jamaica were sort of stubborn in terms of the low block. And it's actually really difficult at times to play against a team who drop off and almost confine themselves to a third of the pitch. So you have to be really patient. And I thought that the way that England moved the ball, it was slick, it was sharp. there were some absolutely wonderful passages of play, you know, sort of evading pressure in the midfield and tight touches from Kira Walsh, Elethoon, and George Stamway in particular. And yeah, I think that the attacking, you can see what they've been working on.

13:37I think that was probably the biggest thing I took from the game. There was a lot around support movement, you know, providing the player on the ball an option to play with, whether that be a close range or a long range pass. I just thought England had it all. and I don't want to get too excited because I know Kit will come in and dampen it. But I just thought they looked really sharp. Now, the ranking difference between Jamaica and England is rather large, but you've got to beat what's in front of you and I just thought that England looked good, without a doubt. Just on the specifics of some of the things about supporting players in tight areas and giving passing options, you were particularly interested in some of the moves of the full-backs, weren't you, Izzy?

14:21Yeah, I did. I thought, I noticed that. I remember pinging over on WhatsApp to you guys, you know, early on in the game, because I've noticed that with England and their sort of naturally wide wingers in Beth Mead and Lauren Hemp, who started that game against Jamaica, they want to get chalk on their boots and hug the wide areas, pull the opposing fullback out, so that they then create the space in that sort of inside channel into sort of the area between the 18-yard box and the edge of the pitch, either for themselves or for a late run forward and saw Lucy Bronze and Jess Carter you know Lucy on the right Jess Carter on the left making those runs with impeccable timing and I remember saying to you guys that it's actually really difficult to mark that when the timing is so good because you know you can imagine Lucy Bronze running like a train into that inside channel getting on the end of balls and I just thought that was really clever and the thing is teams know that England want to do that but when you've got players like Beth Mead, Chloe Kelly, Lauren Hemp, Lauren James who are just so good at 1v1 forward play if England don't use those spaces for late runs from fullbacks or midfielders those players are more than capable of going 1v1 and beating the fullback and creating an offensive moment in that instance so I just love the variation and the sort of different sort of dynamics and relationships in and around those creative areas and like I said I thought England looked really slick and sharp and Lucy Bond just fine wine isn't she.

15:49Izzy Christiansen: Kit your view on the game you were reporting for the Times? Yeah you know Jamaica that's as he says 40th in the world and Bonnie Shaw wasn't playing so not much to read it You've got to be careful Kit you don't want to set yourself up as the pantomime villain just yet we're only 15 minutes in we're not even started the tournament yet this is your chance to get back on side come on no it was about as as impressive as it could be um they scored seven goals what was it six different goal scorers i think off the top of my head he says having been at the game yesterday um and yeah they played really well they look sharp they're attacked in varied ways as is he said i think it's really important how they're using bronze um because again to echo Izzy she's just a fantastic player kind of in in every sense she's not your traditional fullback that stays that wide she can go everywhere on the pitch so that was great and then most importantly more importantly than the result was the fact that no one got injured because that's the one thing you don't want to happen and these send off friendlies we had a very scary moment right at the end when Beth Mead went down clutching her knee, but she managed to get up and finish the game and actually score England seventh and then confirmed after the match that it was just a bit of knee-on-knee contact and nothing more serious.

17:12Izzy Christiansen: So, yeah, it couldn't have gone much better for England yesterday, but Sterner tests are to come. We are going to discuss those Sterner tests just in a minute. Don't you worry, Kit. But in terms of the mood in the camp, Kit, if you like, we talked at the start of the show. I asked Izzy about that build-up and all the narrative around, oh, this is chaos, this is a disaster, this is terrible preparation, peddled mainly by pesky editors like myself. But in terms of this game and being in the mix zone afterwards, Kit, and in the press conferences, presumably it feels a little bit like a new chapter for England after that difficult period, ready for the start of the tournament.

17:49Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, I think ever since we had that packed press conference, the day the squad was announced, which was the day after Millie Bright withdrew. And in that press conference, Serena quite famously said, I don't go around the bush, to use the exact word. Since then, England seem to have steadied themselves. It's been a lot calmer in the last three weeks or so. The players would have had a bit of a holiday. The staff, I assume, would have done the same. And they've come back, they've looked refreshed. They know what the squad is now. Now there's, we assume, going to be no more unexpected dropouts.

18:28Izzy Christiansen: And yet they kind of know what they're working with. And yeah, being in Leicester, the mood felt very relaxed. They seemed very prepared. They did a little kind of acknowledgement of the crowd. And Leah Williamson said a few words to the crowd after the match. And everyone was very kind of upbeat. So yeah, they're going to Switzerland in a good state, both physically and mentally. Izzy, Kit mentioned Leah Williamson there as a captain. As he's brought it up, I wanted to ask you about her now, in terms of her role as a captain, obviously an outstanding player as well. I remember back before the last Euros, when they obviously went on to win it, the conversation around, oh, should she play at centre-back and all that kind of stuff.

19:05You played alongside Steph Houghton, one of the great England captains as well. What do you think of Leah as a captain in terms of leading this side? Yeah, I think she's really kind of level-headed with it. I think she's handled it really well in terms of taking over the captaincy and, you know, being the first captain to win a major trophy with England women. You know, it's an incredible achievement. And to be so level headed about it and to be so focused and calm in the way that she comes across, I almost feel like it's likely scenarios that Serena Megan has had a really positive impact on her leadership skills.

19:47and you can kind of see the sort of the cohesion between head coach and captain. And I think that's always a really healthy place, you know, to be looking at it from the outside. And I think, you know, having not played with Leah Williamson as a captain before, obviously my experience as being around the dressing room, that she's very punchy with her communication. And I remember doing a podcast a couple of weeks ago with Five Live, and we were talking about how Mark Chapman believed that she makes you believe what she says. And I think that's a sign of a good leader because you have that faith and that trust.

20:26And the fact that she, with pitch geography, she's at the back, she's a defender, she's a centre-back. So notoriously you get to see more of the pitch in that position and you can communicate from the back. And she does that so well, often with her communication, but also with the ball as well, in the way that she passes the ball, she always sends the pass with a message on it as if to say, go forwards or give it to me and I'll move it to another space. So I think as a footballer, I've never seen her play better than in the recent Champions League final in which Arsenal won. She was a real kind of, you know, she was at the epicentre of everything that Arsenal did to a really high level.

21:06And I think that confidence, A, getting your hands in the Champions League and be back to her absolute best will give her so much confidence coming into this tournament to wear the armband again. And she looks like she's in a really good place. And if she has a good tournament, England have got a good chance to win it. Kit, your view on England's captain?

21:26Izzy Christiansen: She's got an aura, which is difficult to describe, which is hardly ideal on a podcast. But when she speaks, again to echo what Izzy said, you believe her and it's something that not everyone or not I think most uh captains or managers that I've spoken to in press conferences have I'd say Leah has a I'd say Emma Hayes has it that's that kind of quality of just sounding really powerful and compelling um I'm not sure Serena has it which isn't a massive criticism it's just just the way she is but Leah definitely does She is absolutely inspirational. I think to go again, go back to one of our Pat St.

22:11Izzy Christiansen: George's Park press conferences about a player not playing for England. After the Earps news, she did the press conference and kind of every question that came to her about Earps, she kind of just gave a little smirk. I thought almost as if to say, yeah, you're not going to. There's no question too difficult for me. Don't worry. And she answered them all fine. So in kind of the off-field side of her responsibilities, she's excellent. And then, yeah, she's a big game player. I really don't think, I think I said this last time I was on the podcast, I don't think you can overemphasise how important that Champions League final could be because that was scarcely believable that Arsenal won that game.

22:57Izzy Christiansen: and that was an Arsenal side full of England players against a Barcelona side full of Spanish players and that could be important this summer. And Williamson was probably the best player on the pitch. So yeah, she's going to be very important for England this summer and she's another one that seems to be tracking really nicely. Kit, I just wanted to finish this part one talking all about England by talking about the players and the playing squad and I think it's probably important to put it in the context. We'll have a lot of people listening to this who are avid women's football fans, but we'll probably have some people listening to this who are coming to this first time and excited to follow the Lionesses defending their European Championship title.

23:36Give us a sense of the team and how the squad is set up. Is it, after all the drama with Earps and Millie Bright and everything like that, is the starting 11 fairly set? Where are the positions that are still well and truly up for grabs going into that first game?

23:50Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, I think we can predict the starting 11, what, five days out, six days out with a decent amount of certainty. Izzy, feel free to jump in and correct me on this, but I think it'd be very similar to the team for the Jamaica game. So it'd be Hampton and goal. It'll be bronze, Williamson, Greenwood and Carter. Is it back four? The midfield would be Walsh, Stanway and Ella Toon. And then the front three will be the same as against Jamaica. So Meade, Rousseau and Hemp, unless Lauren James is fit and then she'll come in for Meade. Izzy any thoughts on that first of all I am yeah I think it's hard one with Chloe Kelly the form she's been in you know since moving to Arsenal in January you know she's finished the season so strong and she's looking good but she has a little aura about her that I think Serena Regman uses correctly in terms of she drip feeds her in and out and I think Beth Mead is more of her Serena Regman's consistent you know right winger whether she uses chloe kelly or beth mead will probably largely depend on how big a threat she deems france to be on that left hand side um yeah i i agree uh with you kit but i do think grace clinton might come into that midfield as well oh yeah and instead of elatoon yes yeah i think so yeah elatoon you know she was terrific against jamaica she's got herself into a really nice position.

25:19She looked free. She looked clean on the ball. But I think that Grace Clinton's physicality in that midfield will be really beneficial alongside Georgia Stamway and Kira Walsh. And Ella too might be a sort of a finisher in that game, but I could be totally wrong, but that's what I'd go with.

25:37Izzy Christiansen: Fair enough. And I think that's a good link to maybe some of the lesser known players that could really break out and be stars for the Lionessers at this tournament. Grace Clinton, certainly one of them, had a pretty good season at Man United after an excellent 23-24 season on loan at Tottenham. And she's a midfielder with shades of Georgia Stanway, I'd say, in the sense that she can kind of roam around and do everything. She's only 22, so she's a really exciting young player. And otherwise, players that could shine for the first time, you're looking at the kind of reserve attackers. So Aggie Beaver-Jones scored on Sunday and is an excellent finisher for her age at 21.

26:20Izzy Christiansen: Michelle Ajiman, 19, is the big wild card. And then she's well-known, Lauren James, but she wasn't part of the Euro 2022 squad and her 23 World Cup was mixed, to say the least. So she's another one with a point to prove and who could really kind of make herself a national icon of things go right this month. Izzy, just obviously, I was interested hearing you to debate the team there. I mean, the key takeaway for any England fan listening to this is we're in a great position, aren't we? The classic cliche of any football coach is good problems to have. Serena Viegman, by the sounds of it, has got great problems to have if she's thinking, oh, how do I get Chloe Kelly in?

27:03I've got all this talent on the bench that Kit's mentioned. It's a really good position to be in. yeah it's funny because um you know there are there's a whole book you could write on football cliche and i'm sure i've been one to say in the past you know want to give the manager a headache it was interesting i heard jess carter say it um had the the jamaica game in a press conference she said something along the lines of want to give serena beekman a headache and you know normally it's just sort of a passing sort of comment listening in and you sort of are another footballing cliche but do you know what i actually took that i don't know why i took it took great interested in the comment and I thought you know what if you're Serena Vigman and you've got a headache at night time when you're trying to switch off it's probably where she wants to actually be and because it's not a clear and obvious team selection and you know the harder you have to work for your thinking it's probably exactly where you want to be as a coach and the opposition does somewhat come into that as a factor in terms of which player she's going to suggest for a particular game.

28:08And I think the left-back debate is an area where England, probably not quite sure, and it might be a hybrid role between Jess Carter and Niamh Charles. Jess Carter got the nod against Jamaica and she played really well. So I think that's her shirt to lose now. But yeah, it's an interesting one. I just don't know why I took that comment and actually thought about it instead of just in one ear and out the other. But it's certainly where a coach would like to be ahead of a major tournament. Yeah, definitely. And also, you know, fans need to remember Ella Toon and Chloe Kelly both started on the bench for that final against Germany three years ago and both came on and made themselves England heroes.

28:43Izzy, just to finish, we're going to talk in part two. I said we were going to talk about England's opponents. We will, of course, talk about them in the context of England's clashes with them. Just from you, you and Kit have picked out tactical choices for Serena Wigman. who do you think are going to be England's most important players, Izzy? Oh, gosh. And you're not allowed to say all of them. That's the only... It's a loose rule, but I'm enforcing it right now. You can pick three or five. I'm going to go Alessia Russo. Yeah. Do you want me to explain why? Yeah, I'd love you to, yeah. I think Russo, she's playing some unbelievable football right now.

29:25as a forward if you've got the ability to run in behind I call it don't cringe here guys last line nines that as it rhymes but the nine is you know normally the the striker I know Lesley Russo wears the number 23 but that is the position on the pitch where if you can run in behind you know off the back of defender's shoulders but you're also just as good coming in to the midfield and linking play then you become so difficult to play against and Alessia Russo ticks both of those boxes and the obvious comparison is Harry Kane on his day and I see elements of Alessia Russo in her game as I do in Harry Kane's and I just think Alessia Russo if she's on it like she has been all season with Arsenal she's going to be so important for the way that England want to play and the other player I'm going to select is Lucy Bronze I think when she's on it England are on it she's still got the ability to change a game with a turn of pace or equally the other way defending you know defensive moments she's got the ability to get people off their feet and let's hope England not doing too much defending and she's going forward but her role the way that she manages the balance of getting forward and staying back will be really key to the balance and how open England are.

30:45There'll be lots and lots of men and women, Izzy, around the country who listen to this podcast who will now be in pubs during this tournament going, look, there's a little bit of last line nines there. I told you, see what? They'll be stealing that one, I'm telling you. Kit, just final word from you on one or two players that you think will be key for England.

31:04Izzy Christiansen: Yeah, if Hannah Hampton gets injured or suspended, then in all likelihood Kiara Keating who's a very promising goalkeeper but is only 20 will be making her England debut at a major tournament maybe in the knockout stages who knows are you trying to get us worried again Kit what's going on I I just I just state the truth sometimes um that's Hampton's crucial after the weather's gone she's the only capped goalkeeper squad and she's had a great season for Chelsea she she was number one before Erps made her decision which is important to emphasize however injuries happen suspensions can happen at any time and I think if she went down England England would be in real trouble because as I say it's as solid as Keating or Anna Morehouse can be that's a huge ask to make your England debut imagine came in a quarterfinal against Germany or something.

32:05Izzy Christiansen: So Hampton's really important. And for a similar reason, Keira Walsh, England, I don't think have a obvious replacement for her either in that number six role in midfield. So I would say Hampton and Walsh are the players to wrap in cotton ball and tell them not to get sent off either. I've got, I've got a just quick one on that. In my head, the contingency plan for Keira Walsh in midfield is Lee Williamson. Yeah. Interesting. So someone would then step into defence and she'd move up? Yeah, that's what I would do. But who knows? Serena will probably come up with some ingenia. Interesting. Well, let's hope she doesn't have to deal with those problems.

32:45Only the good problems of which of the attackers is she going to get in. We don't need to worry just yet about any injuries, fingers crossed. Loads and loads of brilliant analysis already from Izzy and Kit. There'll be loads more in part two, but it's time for a quick break, which means it's time for a quick quiz question for these two. We'll see if we can get the answer in the break. The question is, England finished top of their group in Euro 2022, winning all three games. But what was their goal difference after those three victories? Find out after this break.

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35:22Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. These are our special Euro 2025 shows dedicated to the women's tournament, checking to see if England can retain their crown. I'm joined by Kit Shepard and Izzy Christensen. We had a brilliant chat in the first half of the show. Kit showing all of his knowledge. And then in the break, it all went horribly wrong when I asked that quiz question, didn't it? I have no idea what you're talking about. Well, I mean, Izzy, this is a choice for you now. The answer was plus 14. Now, the question is, did Kit say the right answer or the wrong answer, Izzy?

36:00I don't know whether to throw Kit under the bus here because me and Kit have just become friends in the last few weeks, haven't we? Sorry, when anyone's... We build this on TrustWriteKit. I'm going to remain impartial, Tom. Excellent. Right, fine. Well, listeners, you can get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. if you want to know the truth as to whether Kit Shepard, the women's football reporter, knew exactly what the answer was or whether, in fact, he came in really confident but gave the wrong answer. I'm going to leave it up to you. Guys, it's nice to see you sticking together before the tournament, a united camp just like England and a united camp on the game podcast.

36:36Now, we talked just about England, just about their players, and Kit, you hinted at it in your answer about Serena Wiegmann and about the tough tests that England do face because as much as I'm harking back to Euro 2022 and those 14 goals, how wonderful it was. It could be a different story this time. England start the defence of their title with a game against France on Saturday at 8pm UK time. Then they've got a game against the Netherlands before finishing with a match against Wales. Izzy, just give a summary for women's football fans. Just how tough is this group? Well, it's labelled Group D.

37:10Yes. I think the D stands for death. Yes, there we go. We did some cliches in the first half of the show. Now we've got another big one in there. Yeah, let me continue. Yeah, it's a very, very tough group. And I'm a big fan of the sporting rivalries around the globe. Being English, we know we have a big rivalry with Wales in other sports, particularly rugby. And I think that is going to spice up the last group game. So working backwards, we've got France first, obviously Netherlands second, two top, top sides. And then, of course, the Wales game, as the third group game, could either be absolutely poised or it could be dead rubber.

37:56So we will await to find out. If you would like another cliché, you take it one game at a time, don't you, in tournament football? And obviously, we have to beat the French first. And I think it's really interesting to play a team of that level so early on in the tournament. and France are powerful and they are a threat and I think they could be dark horses to get into the latter stages and perhaps, I say perhaps with my hands up go on and win it because I do think they have the talent they are missing a few key players Wendy Renard, former captain of Lyon and France current captain of Lyon may I say former captain of France towering, powering centre-back, not in the squad.

38:45And Eugénie Léa-Somère, which I read earlier, has had the most goal involvement in European Championship history. So, and she's a player I used to play with at Lyon as well, and I think she's super. So without those two players, France looked different. They look, you know, some would argue that, you know, the older players have phased out and the squad's going to be fresh. So have they got that tournament experience? We will see. But, yeah, it's poised so nicely. I'm out here in Switzerland. I'm going to be at that first game, England against France. And to be honest with you, I never want to wish time away, but I cannot wait for it on Saturday.

39:19It's really exciting. Izzy's talked about it there and quite rightly said, it is the group of death. We were all in the office when the groups were drawn and we were like, oh my gosh, because even Wales, probably the weakest team in this group, as Izzy says, have that kind of local rivalry with England. They'll be desperate to beat England as well in that game. Just from you, a little bit more detail on why France and the Netherlands will be such a tough test kit.

39:44Izzy Christiansen: Well, let's start with France. They've beaten England recently. Both these teams are in the same Euros qualifying group and each game was won 2-1 by the away side. So yes, England have beaten them as well, but France have beaten England too. France are very strong going forward. They're quite kind of a fast, direct attack. women's Super League fans will be very familiar with some of their forwards. People like Sandy Baltimore, who had a great first season for Chelsea. Mervyn Millard's been good for Manchester United. So they'll be a real threat. And France, you could almost say they're a bit like England men when it comes to women's football.

40:27Izzy Christiansen: They're never lacking in talent, France, for one reason or another. They've never managed to put it together in a major tournament. But every time it comes to a major tournament, you think maybe this time will be different. And with the big changes they've made, with getting rid of Renard, getting rid of Le Samet, Ken Zadardi as well. Getting rid of Kit, so brutal. That's what they've done. Sorry, not selecting, but politely moving aside. um yeah uh yeah maybe those kind of really gutsy calls uh from the head coach lauren bonadai will what this team needs to make it different this time um so yeah france would be a really tough start and then the netherlands game's just fascinating and full of full of subplots just on on the touchline so obviously serena wiegman's dutch she won euro 2017 as the netherlands head coach she knows her opposite number the dutch head coach andres jonka very well and serena's assistant arjan verink is also dutch and is going to coach holland after the tournament replacing jonka so that there's a lot going on now i almost confused myself explaining it all but there's a lot of um uh subplots subplots in that game and the netherlands are a very talented team as well We know about Viviana Miedemar here in England.

41:54Izzy Christiansen: They've got a kind of younger core coming through as well. People at Esme Brutz at Barcelona, Vickie Kaptain at Chelsea. So, yeah, it's another very talented team. I'm probably with Izzy in the fact that I think France probably did a tougher test, but two teams that have given England problems since the 23 World Cup and that could do so again this month. Izzy, this is where Serena Vigman comes back into the conversation, isn't it? As a big game manager, big game character, who knows how to win in tournament football. As Kit said there, she's won with the Netherlands, she's won with England. In these big matches, these clutch moments, the players will be looking to her and expecting her to deliver, both tactically and in terms of inspiration.

42:39Yeah, certainly. And she's built that trust with the players over a period of time where I think the players will trust and believe and understand everything that she says. You know, she's probably been using the same footballing language for a long period of time, well, since taking the England job. So the players will be familiar with her terminology, you know, the way that she proposes a game plan. Proposing a game plan, the way that the process kind of works is you build up a game plan that's based on your team and the way that you set up and your methodology, the opposition and the key threats that they pose, and then how you can beat them, where you can exploit them.

43:18And that sort of order, you know, and every club, every national team does it differently. But that's pretty much the crux of it. And it's interesting because Serena Vigman has to then prepare that game plan with her staff. And then it's almost like a sales pitch to the team. You know, you sit in the meeting room, the players, you know, you've got 23 eyes glaring at you saying, please win us the tournament. And the game plan almost is like a sales pitch to say, this is what we're going to do. And this is how we're going to do it. and I need you to do this, this and this and it'll work. But then we all know in football so much has left chance as well and stuff which is out of your control and how well you control what you have control over is ultimately, you know, how far and how well you will do in a tournament, leaving space for a little bit of the unknown and that's where player magic comes into play.

44:06So I think the players, you know, they've got massive trust in what she can do and Serena Regal can do, sorry, and how she prepares the team for those games will ultimately define and setting one up for how those results will go in those games. Just very quickly from both of you, for, as I say, the more kind of casual fan, are we saying that France is the tougher test by a long way or is that the Netherlands, there's not too much difference between them? Kit, starting with you, is that about fair?

44:34Izzy Christiansen: I wouldn't say there's a huge difference between them. I do think France is a slightly more difficult game, but Netherlands are a strong team as well. They beat England to Olympic qualification at the end of 2023. And they've got kind of Euros winning now as well from 2017. Still a few from that squad playing eight years on. So I think it's two tricky games. I would agree with Izzy that France is a tough one, but maybe not rate France quite as highly as Izzy does. Izzy, in terms of the Netherlands then, would you agree with Kit that both these two games are almost basically as tough of each other in different ways?

45:18Yeah, exactly in different ways. I think Netherlands pose more of a technical threat. They're cleaner and tidier on the ball. The players, the personnel in their starting eleven, they're all ball players. France have got a little bit more raw talent in their team. You know, a little bit of refining in the final third and in the build-up phases of the way that they play probably required, but often they're physical power and prowess almost gets them out of situations sort of technical scruffiness if you like so it is interesting how france work and operate in the in a forward direction and and how strong they are will cause england a lot of problems at the back it's just how can england minimize those moments and yeah of course the dutch will have a much different uh challenge that they'll present so uh i think england are looking very well equipped to go into both those games but um of course wales might end up being you know a huge game for england as well and that would i imagine be very difficult game in terms of breaking down a really tight low block wales look to compact the the center of the pitch a lot they play with sort of a box in midfield you know with the four players in that sort of central corridor of the pitch so um yeah they have all three teams will present a huge problem but i couldn't say england look more prepared than they did through the night yeah kitt is he's analyzed wales there quite succinctly in terms of the problems that they'll pose for england and i kind of slightly dismissively labeled them the weakest team in the group whilst i'm not suggesting that that is not accurate we should just say that it is an amazing achievement by wales to have qualified for this tournament

46:55Izzy Christiansen: isn't it yeah it's it's groundbreaking it's their first major tournament it was a surprise that they qualified even just winning the playoff to get there against Republic of Ireland in Dublin the second leg was that that was unexpected so they've done really well to get here which sounds slightly patronizing for this men as men as a compliment and Rian Wilkinson who took over as head coach in February of last year's by all accounts done quite a transformational job within that dressing room and kind of giving them renewed belief and also having the tactical analysis as well. They are the weakest team in the group, the weakest team in a tournament, if you believe, the FIFA rankings, but they have had a couple of encouraging results this year.

47:44Izzy Christiansen: They've drawn with Sweden twice in the Nations League, which is a really good effort. So yeah, they can absolutely frustrate England. And I'd be interested, Izzy, considering we'd expect France and Netherlands to kind of give it a go against England because they are very strong teams in their own right. Would it be at all difficult having those two games first and then playing Wales who you'd expect to sit much deeper and play in a much different style to France and Netherlands? Would that be tough to make that transition? Great question. I think the way I look at it, I think it's in the perfect order for England because you're Going into the tournament, in terms of sports, sport periodization, which is how you plan a lead up to an event, i.e.

48:37major tournament, the players are ready and have and will, in the next few days, peak into their prime physical condition. And as the tournament goes on, it's how well you can maintain that level. And it goes without saying you will deteriorate as the tournament goes on because that's the demand that tournament football puts on you. So to play these teams, France and the Netherlands first and second, I think it's the perfect time. And then the Wales game, almost like if England do the business against France and Netherlands, the Wales game, you know, you want to win it, but there's no pressure on it.

49:13And therefore you can afford to rest players if you need to, you know, change the dynamic to sort of drop down the sort of physical graph a little bit to then bump back up it going into the knockouts. and everything's going to look different and it won't always go as you planned. But I would say if you could plan a tournament how you want it to go and you have control over the order of games and the difficulty of them, I would say England, again, have got a good draw in the way that it's formatted for them. Excellent. That's what we like to hear. Start as we mean to go on. We've talked about England's Group D, Group of Death, as Izzy put it.

49:50England, France, Netherlands, three really strong teams and then a great story in Wales. Izzy, what about the other teams in other groups? We've got Group C, he's got Germany in, Group B has got Belgium, Italy, Portugal and Spain. What other teams are you looking forward to seeing? I'm looking forward to seeing Norway. They're a team who have flattered to deceive in recent years. They've got a lot of WSL stars who perform at a ridiculously good level week in, week out for their clubs. Man United, Celine Bisset has had a great season. You know, Guru Wrighton, Ada Hegerberg at Lyon, who's, you know, in a bit of a different stage of her career right now, but she is a threat on her day.

50:33Ingrid Egan of Barcelona, recently just left Barcelona. They've got players who haven't performed on a major stage later. And I think Frieda Marnum, again, Arsenal just thought of her, what a player she is. I just think they need to show up. and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do to sort of change the narrative around the team. Very interesting. Kit, what about you? Other teams you're looking forward to seeing in this tournament?

51:04Izzy Christiansen: The one that has to be mentioned is Spain because they are the team to beat, they are the world champions and they've got the strongest squad on paper and they're always a pleasure to watch when they're ticking. So Spain are obviously a fantastic team and one worth keeping an eye on. I would also keep an eye on Italy, who are in Spain's group. But aside from being drawn with Spain, it's not the worst draw for Italy. You've always got Belgium and Portugal in that group. And Italy have had some decent results in the last two years. They've beaten Germany and Spain at different times and with their opponents at differing levels of strength, but they were still eye-catching results.

51:47Izzy Christiansen: So as kind of a more left field answer, I'd definitely keep an eye on Italy in that Group B. Very interesting. And just to finish, Izzy, you mentioned how excited you were to be there, to be in Switzerland, reporting on the tournament, covering the tournament now as a pundit. How will the players be feeling? You know, you've been in dressing rooms before huge games, both at club and international level. I presume they will all just be itching to get out on the pitch and be sick of having to talk about things, just desperate to get out there. Yeah, I think so. And having seen England's team hotel, I actually had lunch there a few weeks ago.

52:26Yeah, you'd be itching to get out there. I'll tell you that for free, regardless of the major tournament being held here. Excellent. Nice hotel, good breakfast buffet, are we talking? Is this what we're saying? Well, I didn't stay there. I had lunch there, and it was all fresh produce that's grown in the garden. It was delicious. But nonetheless, enough about my lunch. The players will be feeling, I think they'll be feeling great off the back of the Jamaica game. I spoke to Georgia Stanway briefly this morning and just say, you know, I thought of the game because I tend to do that with Georgia after most England games.

53:01But yeah, no, she seems in good spirits and, you know, looked really calm and composed and ready to head out. And yeah, I just think that they'll be feeling fine. You know, they've done it before. They can do it again. and it's just a case of finding familiarity very quickly in their nice surroundings and Zurich up on a hill with a beautiful view of the city and a tremendous looking golf course underneath it. But yeah, no, they'll be fine and they'll be ready and they'll probably just want to fast forward to Saturday. They've done it before, they can do it again. Let's hope so. We are excited now for the start of Euro 2025.

53:38Kit Shepard and Izzy Christensen, thank you very much for joining me. If you'd enjoyed listening to Izzy's analysis on the game podcast, make sure you keep your eyes peeled for the Times website. Her first column from the tournament will be available to read on the Times website in the coming days as well. Thank you very much for listening. We'll be back to discuss the first games of the tournament, including that massive clash between England and France on Saturday. We'll see you very soon.

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