WORLD CUP 2026: BIG ENGLAND PREVIEW

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1:07Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is the first of several special World Cup preview shows and this one is all about England. Has Thomas Tuchel picked the right squad? Who will be the key players? What is the US base and backroom team like? And crucially, can they win it? I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today to discuss all of that, we have the Timesport team who will be with England for the whole tournament. We have the Chief Football Correspondent for the Sunday Times and Times and Current Football Journalist of the Year, it's Johnny Northcroft.

1:37The Chief Sports Correspondent for the Times and Five Times Sports News Reporter of the Year, Matt Lawton. And the Football Reporter and Current Sports Data Journalist of the Year, it's Hamza Khaliq Lunat. Team, welcome to the studio. Welcome to YouTube if you're watching at Times Sport. Let's just get a sense before we dive into the analysis all about England. How excited are we about this? We've got a mixed bag with you three. Hamza, this is your first World Cup on the ground. Then Johnny and Matt, this is your eighth. Is that right? Going all the way back to France in 98, how the world and the media and journalism, football has changed since then.

2:11How excited are we? Matt, I'll start with you. Look, you come into this business to go to things like the World Cup. Yeah. And yeah, Johnny and I have been incredibly lucky to now be going to our eighth. It's the pinnacle. And actually, I always say this to young reporters, was there is nothing like covering England at the World Cup. Well, stop. In terms of professional kind of just the appetite for information, the appetite for copy, the appetite for stories, it's, as you know, Tom, I love the Olympic Games. Yeah. I also feel very fortunate to have done a few of those, but nothing compares to England.

2:52You know, Euro 96 was brilliant, but nothing compares to England at the World Cup. Yeah, absolutely. Now, Johnny, don't worry. There is going to be a Scotland preview as well. So you can get as many Scotland references in there. But yes, as Matt says, it's a real privilege to cover these tournaments, isn't it? Whether you're at home like I will be or for you guys on the ground. There's nothing better. Matt's right. I was sort of joking a little bit. I've covered Scotland at one World Cup. That was pretty big. But there is a, I guess it's an appetite. It's a scale of news story, of profile that you get with the England national team.

3:27And each World Cup's different. Each World Cup's got its own narrative. It's never quite what you expect. The settings give each a little flavour. And after all these years, this feels like a venture into the unknown. Even now, it's going to be really exciting. We are going to be... I mean, we're going to be working around the clock, but we're going to enjoy every minute. I know that from tournament experience. Just those games, like every game, especially the knockout matches, every game in the World Cup's an epic when you're reporting on it. And you remember them, you remember them years later.

4:04So can't wait. Hamza, you've covered England's under-21s and some of their triumphs in recent seasons. Now going to follow the senior team. A lovely journey for you as well. Yeah, England under-21. They won in 2023. The Euros then in 2025. So maybe I'm the good luck charm. You're a good luck charm. There we go. 100 % record. Until England go out in the group stages and I return back to the M21s. You've been the missing piece all this time. Matt and Johnny, you talked about the appetite for these stories and for everything England related. Nothing shows that better than, you know, last week, Thursday, Friday, and the announcement of Thomas Tuchel's squad.

4:39I was on the editing desk and Matt and Paul Joyce, our colleague, did brilliantly, basically getting the entire squad before Thomas Tuchel had the chance to name it as a lot of our colleagues around the industry was doing as well. I want to come back to that in just a second, Matt, because you've done that kind of a story so many times in your career. But, Johnny, after all the kind of controversy, hot takes, anger online, you and I had a chat on Friday and actually ended up going, I think he's nailed this, hasn't he? How are you looking at it now? We're recording this on the Tuesday after that World Cup squad was announced.

5:10How are you looking at it now? There's still some names that I'm sure listeners are thinking he should be there. Yeah. But it's a good balance, right? Yeah, look, it's not a perfect squad, and I'm sure we'll get into some of the detail. But, yeah, on Thursday, when the names were starting to come out, I was getting very exercised about Harry Maguire, for example, and I based a piece around it, you know, why is Harry Maguire not going? He's been the best English defender in the league, apart from Mark Gahey, and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe, you know, why is Ivan Toni going? And then waking up on that Friday morning and just trying to take stock, and I thought well you know Harry Maguire is the fourth or fifth choice centre-back so is that really a big problem?

5:50Ivan Toney's the wild card pick as a striker you could go with a different one but you know I think I think if we're coming down to worrying about who the third choice striker is or the fourth choice centre-half okay it's a bit harsh I think by and large it's a pretty sensible squad as we mentioned on Friday Tom it's it's what he's been telling us he's going to do all along two players per position wild card in each department we know who he likes you know we shouldn't have been surprised that Dan Burns going for example or Jordan Henderson he's been signaling that for a long time I think there's one my one I'm worry about it is by not picking Trent not picking Palmer not picking Wharton I think that player who plays a different type of pass, that creative sort of spark to break open a tight game.

6:46I think he's gone without that one type. I think every other base is more or less covered, but that's my worry. In that tight knockout game, has he got that tool? But, you know, there's never a perfect squad. And what he did was he avoided the mad Capello, Ledley King out of retirement or the Sven, Theo Walcott thing. So not bad. I'm sorry, I'll come on to some of those questions that I think a lot of readers on the Times website and listeners were maybe asking in a minute because you did a brilliant piece kind of breaking down some of his decisions. But Matt, Johnny mentioned there some previous squads of the past and how we were always kind of slightly caught off guard with some mad decisions and the news breaking as it does.

7:24Were you surprised at the kind of level of reaction from the England fan base? The one thing that was consistent is that you often find out about these things by piecing it together. The people that start to leak are often the ones that have been left out. You'll get the angry agent, you'll get the angry representative. The point is we knew that there were 55 players that were in this provisional squad and there were 55 phone calls to make. And at that point, once those phone calls were made and as much as the FA wanted to do this kind of new show on their new app, we've got a job to do and we did our damnedest to find it out.

8:05What I thought was really fun and interesting about Thursday, what was the fact that they wanted to do this big reveal and they wanted to protect their content and we were all going to find out on the show. Like Dominoes, one by one by one, the names came out. But I felt that things were going quite well from an FA point of view until Harry Maguire went rogue. And the minute he did, and you were having a lot more of those conversations than I was on Thursday, but the minute he put his statement out, it just felt like the gloves were off. Johnny's right. It's once someone sees that, and again, because it's all so public now, people see it, then others started to...

8:44There were very few players who had had the nice phone call that actually, I think, to my knowledge, only one was confirming that he was in. So it was about learning who was out and then working it out. One out of 26 was briefing that they'd been picked, to my knowledge. Right, interesting. And the thing I liked about it was, I think by Thursday night, we had 25 of the 26 and Friday morning the task was to get the last one and I thought it was going to be Lewis Skelly I was wrong on that one I think there was a bit of a thought it might be Trent nobody looked in the direction of Jed Spence it was like nobody made the phone call to Jed Spence exactly well that leads along nicely to Hamza you wrote a really interesting piece on the Times website in the immediate aftermath of this talking about decisions like that that Johnny said you know why Jed Spence just give us give listeners and viewers a little bit of a run of some of those kind of talking points.

9:35Why is Jordan Henderson in? Why did Jed Spence get the nod over some other players? What else was there in this excellent piece in terms of players, some of the players that missed out, some of the players that are in? Just give us a little run through. Why no Gibbs White, for example? Some of the things like that. Let's start with Spence. This one's nice and easy because Thomas Tuchelik signed it himself. He said he's the fastest player in the squad. Having that top-end speed is very valuable. We don't need to look at the Premier League this season in all the past five or so seasons to see the importance of physicality, whether that be your size or your speed.

10:10Clubs often look to these qualities now. There's a group called Skill Corner that collect data, and they have been very important and influential in popularizing recruitment based on physical qualities. So when you see a player that's got high top-end speed, that gives you a game-changing ability. And this isn't a new thing. Kyle Walker went to the 2022 World Cup. That ability, Gareth Southgate thought about a lot. If in a big moment, in a big game, the ball is in behind, who can save you in that moment? The fast guy will. And sometimes it's that simple. There is more beyond that as well. Tuchel likes the way that he can play on both sides, so that gives you versatility.

10:54So that gives you depth at left back and right back. That gives you the ability to keep Konza, who can play right back as well, or Gerald Kwanza, the ability to keep them as a centre-back option to give them a little bit of freshness. So, yeah, you've got those qualities. And he also said, this is Tuchel, that he really loves the way that Spence loves defending. That one was the one that I was like, I didn't realise that. Tottenham fans probably agreeing with you as well. When was it the Latvia match, we saw Spence pull out a Rabona cross. I really enjoyed that. Yeah, that's what I like to see from my fullbacks.

11:33But never when watching Spence, if I go, oh, that's someone that I think loves one-on-ones, those sort of contests. But when you get to work up close with someone in training, that dynamic is completely different, right? Yeah. And when you're winning against Latvia and you cross the ball, then yeah, sure, whatever. It looks cool. But when you get to work with someone closely, you see what they really like. And having a right-footed guy on the left, that means that you can set up against a winger who plays on their opposite foot. So yeah, that bit is about tactical versatility. Henderson, Thomas Stuckel has been really keen on Henderson throughout his time.

12:07Because this is the one that ultimately sums up England fans and maybe even England journalists not listening to the manager. In reality, we knew Jordan Henderson was basically the first guy on the plane, really, despite whether he was playing well or not. I think, Johnny, you said to me on Friday, even if he'd not been in the squad, you'd imagine he'd have gone as part of the coaching staff. It speaks to a manager who's very keen on having some leaders in that dressing room, doesn't it, Hamza? There's a moment, I think it was in March last year that really stuck with me. Harry Kane spoke with us as part of an England thing.

12:39There's one line, he said, we're a little bit light on leadership at the previous Euros, in Euro 2024. And that really sort of stuck with me because you thought about all the stuff that Gareth Southgate had done to develop the group. And then that slight change that he made with the squad itself, He took out players like Henderson and so on. And I thought it was really telling that Kane actually offered that up himself. Now, bringing someone like Henderson back in helps in that respect. He has led Liverpool, had led Liverpool to the Champions League, the Premier League, made three title tilts with them.

13:18That experience is quite useful. And it's good to have a group of winners in the group, in the squad. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean anything, as these two will note. As in, like, you can go back. Exactly, right? I spoke to Paul Joyce about this exact same thing. He said the same thing as well. He said, yeah, that didn't help in 2006, didn't help in 2002. You had all these winners then. But I think when you look at previous squads, so the 2022 World Cup squad or the 2024 Euro squad, you go, actually, not that many players in that group have actually won big trophies, such as Champions Leagues or Premier Leagues.

13:52So in 2024, you would have had John Stones, Phil Foden, Karl Walker, and then Trent. That's about it, yeah. The big ones, of course, is FA Cups and League Cups and now some under-21 Euros guys as well. But I think that experience does help a bit. So yeah, he's someone that Jude Bellingham in particular works really well with, looks up to. and I think being able to keep your big players happy and training well is really, really important. You only need to look at the videos that Mohamed Salah put out recently about how people like James Milner or John Henderson kept up the standards in training and in this potentially eight-week block, you need someone who knows when to dial up the intensity and also when to ease off a bit.

14:41So having that liaison between the coaching staff and the players that are playing lots is important. Yeah, I think there's a number of qualities that Henderson offers beyond the stuff on the pitch, which makes me a good pick. I think he's an interesting selection, though, because I was talking to Phil Neville. He's always one of our columnists for the World Cup. The reason for that is because he's been coaching the MLS for quite a few years now and knows as well as anyone the challenges of playing in the US. and I think one of the factors even though and I assume Henderson is still incredibly fit but I think one of the factors in Tuchel's thinking will be actually about fitness and about athletes he needs athletes in America because even though we think the game is going to be a bit slower and because people have got to deal with the conditions it's still going to be incredibly demanding physically and actually because England start the tournament so late the last game starting on the 17th of June if they do go through the tournament, they've got less recovery time than other teams.

15:47And Phil was making the point, we're going to have our first proper chat this week about the column. But he was making the point that even when it comes to things like, if England do end up in Mexico City playing at 8 ,000 feet, he certainly, his experience is that the older players, the less athletic players, you see how much more they suffer. And there's actually a 20, his physiologist up in Portland, they talk about a 20 minute line. Right. And everyone has to get to the first 20 minutes. The first 20 minutes are really hard. As in, of a playing match. Just dealing with the oxygen, the difference in oxygen levels.

16:28Yeah. And then the fitter players will actually, once they endure that first 20 minutes, will kind of start to acclimatise and get used to it. but the less fit players the older players often it's like they've been hit by a bus Interesting and I think some of his selections are over fitness I want to come back to the heat and the climate and stuff in the second part of the show but Johnny picking up off that No so one of the things that made the squad announcement so meaningful I think actually is because of these factors he's going to have to do more rotation than Gareth didn't rotate a lot did he but I think this is going to be a World Cup for rotation it's going to be a World Cup for special plans.

17:08So there's a lot of in-game, he called them special teams, almost that American football approach. But I think he's, what I mean is we're going to see the bench used a lot. Interesting. For special moments in games, scenarios, set pieces, chasing a game, protecting a lead. And that tight turnaround means you can't play Rhys James twice a week, I wouldn't have thought, for example. So of that 26-man squad, with the exception of the goalkeepers, I think they'll all get plenty of pitch time. Interesting. That's really, I think a lot of listeners and viewers might be then jumping on the back of that and going, well, that's where I have the problem with the squad.

17:44Hamza, you mentioned winners there. You mentioned Jude Bellingham. A year ago, I'd have expected this show to be dominated by who plays number 10, Phil Foden, Cole Palmer, or Jude Bellingham. Well, two of them ain't going. So I think that's where maybe a lot of the reaction to the squad comes from. So I think people will be interested, Johnny, to hear you talk about the bench. because as Matt, as you said, with those midfielders, Thomas Tuchel and your analysis on the Times website was about two for every position. Yep. And three wild cards, Dan Byrne. Eze. Eze and Ivan Toney. And like, that's all great.

18:15But then your two midfielders, when it's not Declan Rice and Elliot Anderson, is Jordan Henderson and Kobe Minou. Yep. Which in a World Cup might not quite cut it. And then also you then look at players like Phil Foden, Cole Palmer not being there. These are big calls, which if they're right, Thomas Tuchel's going to look great. But as our colleague Martin Samuel wrote in the Sunday Times this weekend just gone, this is where he'll be, you know, this is the stick we'll beat him with, as if this is proved to be wrong. So, I mean, what do you all think about that mode in terms of maybe reflecting on the past and Gareth Southgate, but also on this idea, if you all agree with Johnny, that we're going to see a lot of rotational tactics.

18:54Johnny, I'll come back to you first. Yeah. No, he's given us plenty of sticks to beat him with, hasn't he? if England don't succeed. Although Matt and I both got experience of World Cups where England have picked the stars and haven't picked the squad team. Yeah, quite right. And it's gone wrong. So this is a different approach. I think composition of the squad, the one thing that struck me is, and this is maybe him being uber-germanically logical, he's talked about it being, we've got a 4-3-3 formation, therefore we've got a 9-7-7 squad, which is nine defenders, seven midfielders, seven forwards.

19:29Very few teams have gone with nine defenders. So I think there might be one too many there. And that's where the selection could have been. That's where you could have had a Cole Palmer. Or a Gibbs-White. Or a Gibbs-White. Or a Fodor. They're the people that would be people who sat on their couches, weren't they, or in the pubs going, why is he not there? Why is he not there when we need someone to change a game? And he's going to try and win these games by team pattern. But I'm sure Martin would make this point. sometimes you need the individual to come and do something. So that's where he's, in this set-up, he's just gone a little bit light there but I think it is because he's looking at rotation all the time and keeping his blueprint pretty much the same by doing that.

20:11Matt, what do you think about Tuchel in that guise then as Johnny explained it there? It's been very clear cut in terms of his explanations. He's quite strident in his press conferences as he has always been. You know, relations slightly frostier with Jude Bellingham previously in his tenure on Friday came out and said, Cole Palmer, not good enough. Bill Foden, I don't know where he is anymore. Like, as the editor of the day, Johnny was ringing in and I was going, brilliant, amazing, great lines. I was going to say, never criticise a guy for being candid. Absolutely not. Not in our job. But it's quite striking, isn't it, when you think about not only the choices he's made, but how he then backs them up.

20:44Is this slight freeing thing of, you know, German guy in charge of England and he's like, I don't care really, I just want to win the game. It's certainly very different to Gareth Southgate. Yeah, but there's a bit more Fabio Capello. You always felt, and look, these guys have won the European Cup, right? But you always feel when you're in, and these two spend more time in Tuchel's sphere than I do, but you always feel when he sits with us that he thinks he's the cleverest man in the room. But I think when you're England manager, you need to think you're the cleverest man in the room. So I don't have a problem with him thinking he's the cleverest man in the room because let's be honest, he is the guy that's guided Chelsea to the European Cup and, you know, Champions League.

21:26And so I like the fact that he has such conviction. I like the fact that he is, you know, that he hasn't necessarily just judged it on reputation and previous trophies with their clubs and so on. I also share all the same concerns that everyone else does. you know I'm not going to name names but I had I had representatives of players who are in the squad contacted me last week going oh my oh my word what has he done really you know so so so because because there is we've all been talking about it that game and we've seen so many of them where England are just up against the brick wall and and and you just need someone to change it and And I do worry, as I think everyone does, is that he will look at that bench and not be entirely sure where that's going to come from.

22:20But as I say, what I like about Tuchel is sometimes I think he goes too far. I think he went a bit too far with his comments about Bellingham at the time. And he obviously regretted that. And there was a little bit of a second language factor in that. but as I say journalists should be the last people to criticise someone for being blunt I love the fact that he's blunt keep it coming Thomas all the way through the World Cup Hamza just your final thoughts on some of the points the guys have made there particularly maybe Johnny's assertion that this could be the World Cup of the bench of a lot of changes of maybe systems and tactics for specific scenarios I think we actually got a look at what one of those scenarios might be in the Japan match England needed a goal and they turned to Maguire and Byrne.

23:08If anyone read the live blog, you would have just seen me saying this is a disgrace or whatever. Yeah, I remember. I was sitting next to Martin and neither of us thought this was successful for an elite football side. But nonetheless, you can win matches like this and you can win tournaments like this. And as England played for corners and targeted the six foot seven bloke and I'm sorry, I don't know Harry Maguire's height, but he's pretty tall. He's not sure. You could see the routines at England we're using in terms of blocking and how they use out swingers and in swingers to create space for those guys to attack the ball that right there was just a classic example of that's the plan there's another example I mean Ivan Tony for flick-ons took on mention this but as in again if you are chasing a game it's late on and you need to kick long you're going to play into Ivan Tony and he'll bring teammates into play one of the worst things you can do is when you kick long and however many, you'll see this every week or when a team chases, they've got short guys up front and they'll kick long and you're thinking, what are you doing?

24:09You've just given away possession needlessly. But when you're under pressure, you make those mistakes. Having Tony there means that you can bring someone in and then you get a flick on and you play to Kane and then you get shot off in the box. So I think we have a bit of an insight to how these things work. But to be fair, I mean, England have done stuff like this before. You take the goal that Jude Bellingham scored at the 2024 Euros. That was a throw-in routine that they'd worked on. That finished with an overhead kick, though. What you're lining up for me here is Iron Tony Flickons or Dan Byrne at the back post here.

24:40The finish itself was, yeah, cool. But as in England had worked that routine, they wanted Kyle Walker to take long throws in that situation. So, yeah, I think you see how this stuff works, but everyone knows that the Mike Tyson quote, right, you can have your plans, but you get punched in the face, then all those really well laid plans can go to waste and that's probably where you think okay but who would respond when they've been punched in the face and then you go well Cole Palmer looks like he wouldn't care right or Adam Morton Scott McTominay but you can't put that second gratuitous mention of Scotland from Johnny Northcroft on the England pod so just very quickly then are we suggesting that this is not the general preview this is the England show but I feel like I have to ask we feel like we might see in this World Cup Hamza and Johnny a little bit of what we've seen in the Premier League this season and increased physicality in set pieces?

25:31It depends on the referees, and I think we'll find out very quickly how the referees are approaching it. And I think I remember at the previous World Cup as well, there were a few blocking routines, and very quickly the referees were keen to stamp that out. If there is space to create a meat wall of players in front of the goalkeeper, then they will do that because it's really, really effective. But there's also space to be really imaginative. And if you look at recent goals by, for example, Arsenal against Fulham, the Jokers goal, Aston Villa against Liverpool, the Rodgers goal, Aston Villa in the Europa League final, there are ways to be really inventive with set pieces that don't rely on excessive physicality.

26:14And what you have here with England are players that have access to the best domestic set piece coaches week to week and are bringing that all together with the national team. but there'll be other teams as well that have that experience we'll see more long throws won't we and I'm just thinking doesn't the ball travel further at altitude who's the England long throw guy who would be on the long throw good question who do we think that's a we need to check that maybe maybe he'll go full Roy Hodgson stick Harry Kane get Harry Kane Lawrence Shankman does it he does strikers can do it anyone that watched that match would have been looked at when I say that match I mean the the Hearts Celtic match last game of the season and see Lawrence Shankland near the halfway line picking up the point.

26:59What is the striker doing there? Let's not get Hamza upset about positions. Feedback Lee of Scottish football. Absolutely. Really fascinating insights so far. We've got loads more to come in part two, but it's time for a little break. Time for a quiz question. We've got an England-themed one for the guys. Going back to the 2014 World Cup, when it comes to England's squads at major tournaments, what do Frank Lampard, Adam Lallana, Jordan Henderson and Trent Alexander-Arnold all have in common. Find out after the break.

27:38Since he got out, bad things keep happening. Cape Fear is streaming on the 5th of June on Apple TV. Why would I want to hurt you? Starring Academy Award winner Javier Bardem. And Academy Award nominee, Amy Adams. He is coming after my family.

28:02Cape Fear. Streaming on Apple TV on the 5th of June. Subscription required. A BetterHelp ad. Hold on. One second. I just need to...

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29:02Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

29:17Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is our special World Cup preview show all about England. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm joined by the Times Sport team who are going to be with the England camp throughout the tournament. I've got Hamza Khalid Lunat, Johnny Northcroft and Matt Lawton. Matt, very cautiously going for the answer to the quiz question, but you did get it right. What united those players, Lampard, Lallana, Henderson and Trent squad numbers? Yes, I didn't get the number. No, I was being kind. Number eight. Number eight. Everyone forgets Trent Alexander-Arnold that last year has worn number eight in one of Gareth Southgate's desperate attempts.

29:50One of the great examples of what the guys were talking about in the first half of the show, cramming in those superstars. Matt, I wanted to talk about the England base, the England camp. I keep referring to you guys being in the England camp. It's going to be in Kansas. You've been there. You've visited it. You've done a brilliant piece for the Times website. You did a lovely video on the Times Sports social channels as well. What a pro. Tell us a little bit about the location, what England can expect, why they've picked it. And then we'll get into a little bit of why this is so important and how much time governing bodies spend on this.

30:22But tell us a bit about Cam's. Look, the key reason they're there and the key reason that Argentina, the Dutch and Algeria are there is location. If you look at a map of the US, it's slap bang in the middle and the teams clearly take the view that being in the middle and trying to cut travel time, depending on which direction you end up going across the whole of North America and Mexico is that because everyone thought and actually when we were talking to the hosts the guys that are hosting England everyone thought that Messi was going to want to be in in Miami right yeah into Miami's training ground and that's not the case they they they too have chosen Kansas City and it makes a lot of sense to me because it's quite a small city it's the smallest of all the host cities.

31:12It makes it very easy to get around. The journey between their hotel, despite the fact that it crosses a state line, which is hilarious because as I said in the piece, you can actually smoke dope on one side of the line but you can't on the other. Neither Matt nor the England team. I was going to say Team Times will be stubbing out their joints every time we go there. It's about a 20-minute commute, but they won't hit any traffic. It's a really accessible city. The city centre's quite compact, but very nice. I stayed in the hotel where Travis Kelsey and Patrick Mahomes actually have a restaurant.

31:52Didn't get to eat there. Did go and eat in the England team hotel, now having terrible trouble getting that through expenses because it was over our limit. You put it on YouTube now. You're going to get it through now. Anything guaranteed. The accountants don't understand that I had to eat there for the piece. It was expensive. For journalism. For journalism, guys. You didn't need to have the lobster. I didn't need to have three courses and a couple of beers, admittedly. But, you know. But it was very nice. The hotel is lovely. It's very open. As someone that went to, was actually, you know, I was one of the handful of journalists that stayed in the infamous Wags Hotel in Baden-Baden.

32:30Right. Yeah, because most of the media were in another very nice hotel. Baden-Baden's a beautiful place in Bavaria. Most of the media were in this other hotel. That was like the official media trip. But some of us didn't want to be on the media trip. And actually, it was quite by accident. We booked this other hotel, the Brenner Park, and then subsequently found out, and some of my colleagues who actually stopped this from happening, when the WAGs found out that we were in the team, they tried to have us kicked out. Really? Yeah, it's true, yeah. Outrageous. But anyway, they failed in that bid to have us turfed out of our hotel.

33:05So we all ended up in there. And it reminded me of that because the thing about the back of the Brenner Park was that it was these lovely gardens and then there was this river and then it was more parkland on the other side. The funny thing was that after a few days and the paparazzi were taking all the pictures of the wives and girlfriends and family and Neville Neville and all these people, that they had these screens put up. But actually, such was the desire to be in the media that their wives and girlfriends then asked for the screens to come back there. But anyway, and it was utter bedlam, utter bedlam.

33:39But it will, obviously, that's not going to happen here. We still don't quite know where families are going to stay. It was very interesting. I was at a police, football police press conference ahead of the World Cup last week. and there are going to be 1 ,000 friends and family members at every England game. 1 ,000? 1 ,000 people. Just linked to the playing squad and coaching? Yeah, friends and family. So when they broke down the numbers, it was like, for each game, the rough breakdown was about 3 ,000 members of the official England travel club. Right. So 3 ,000 official fans. Then they reckon about 7 ,000 or 8 ,000 expats, So people that live in the US that support England.

34:26But yeah, the most staggering number was 1 ,000 friends and family that the FAA have told them about. And I don't know where they're going to be. They can't stay at the Inn at Meadowbrook. It's only got 55 rooms. But it's a lovely little hotel in the most gorgeous neighbourhood. We're just up the road in a house in a slightly less salubrious area. But we are actually on the same road. It's Times HQ. and it's just it's very close to where Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift live and I was told, I probably shouldn't be saying this but I was told that if you pay 90 quid for a round of golf you can virtually see into their back garden because they're on this gated community near a golf course apparently, I don't know where it is All the insights But no, so it's in a near area called Leawood and Prairie Hills that's where it is So if you imagine that the sort of team hotel's there and then the Swope Village where the training ground is, it's sort of up there, city centre's there.

35:26You do cross the state line, which I find hilarious because it is actually, it's called State Line Road. Right. And so you've got houses either side. So there literally are different laws. For the person that lives directly opposite you, that you might pull their bins out everywhere. That's great fun. They actually live under different laws. So as I say, you can smoke cannabis on one side of the road, but you can't on the other. There's certain things about buying alcohol, on one side of the road and on the other. In terms of then the trip as well, just back to your piece as well, because you talked about the hotel, you go to the training ground as well, had a look around?

35:57Yeah, the training ground, no. So because I'm sure they'll make it nice by the time we go back, but because England aren't playing in Kansas City, the teams that are, i.e. in particular the Argentina and the Dutch, they got first refusal. So England are actually in the training ground that was once occupied by the Kansas City Chiefs, then was the MLS team's training ground. But since they've built this super-duper$75 million training ground, which the Argentinians have snapped up, the Dutch are in the women's team training ground, which was part-funded by Patrick Mahomes' wife. She's a big investor in the women's team.

36:43And that training ground is really nice. and the one that England have is actually now occupied by the Academy. England are in the hand-me-down training ground. As I said to the guys earlier, when you stand out on those pitches, they're lovely. They're exactly the same as everyone else's pitches. They're all made with the same Bermuda grass. And actually the environment where England are playing, I prefer. It's very green, very lush, lots of trees. Whereas the Argentina training ground, it feels a bit like you're on a junction of the M25. It's sort of on a highway, very accessible. but not as pretty.

37:16I think actually when you're out there on the pitch with the balls, the England one is nicer. It's just the facilities aren't as modern. They're putting in, it hadn't been put in yet. There's going to be this massive marquee with this state-of-the-art gin. I think it'd be fine. And because it's so easy to get back to the hotel, things like the hyperbaric chambers, they'll all be back there. All the food will be done back there. The one thing about that meal that I had, those chefs won't be there. They're all getting turfed out. The England, they're all being furloughed for a month. England will have their own chefs.

37:51But it's a lovely environment. I get why Tuchel's picked that hotel. When you're describing it there, Matt, it made me think of 2018. Rapinoe was a very small kind of, wasn't the fanciest hotel? Yeah. The Forest Rest, I think it was with three stars. Yeah. Quite a modest training ground as well, if you remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what they went for was a bit of seclusion, a bit of peace and quiet, intimate feel. I mean, Al Wakra in Qatar was quite similar as well. It wasn't a great training ground, but they again went for a smaller hotel that they could customise. I mean, they've been doing this for so long now, the FA have got a special team of people who go in.

38:31Really. They'll make it nice. In Qatar, they put up... As in, so they go over beforehand and change the hotel for England. They'll make it home from home. Yeah, so in Qatar they came with all these artworks. So there was like, you know, Bakayo Saka on the unicorn in the swimming pool, a kind of bit artsy picture of that and, you know, artsy pictures of Kane and Rashford and so on. And they built a basketball court, they'd put a juice bar in. They were very, they loved sort of the outdoor dining vibe. That's always been big for England. so they put in a patio area for them to play Uno and watch Love Island or whatever it was.

39:12I'm sure they'll do the same. I'm sure it'll be a takeover of that hotel. So when they walk in, and Tuchel spoke about how in America it's quite difficult to find hotels that are under 200 rooms, under 400 rooms even. So to find something that's small was a massive thing. They think it's a bit of a coup to get a hotel. And it is. And there's a park. It's a residential neighbourhood. It's obviously very posh. But there will be people that can sit on their balconies. Because it's like there's lakes and there's a park. And then you've got all these lovely apartment blocks. And there will be people sitting on their balconies going, oh, there's Jude Belly and Mamma Coffee.

39:55It'll be that open. Interesting. But they do think about everything, don't they, Johnny? And Jude Belly and Mamma Coffee is part of it. because one of the points of having a small hotel with grounds is that players can leave. They can walk out and have a coffee in the garden or whatever. If you're in one of the bigger kind of more sort of five-star but, you know, lifts, elevators, city centre, players can't even get outside. So just being able to do all that sort of stuff. It's a big operation, isn't it, in terms of moving around as well the tournament. Hamza, just tell us a little bit more about, because these squads that go out there, it's not just about 26 players, Thomas Tuchel and a couple of coaches.

40:36There's a raft of other people who are going out with them as well, aren't they? England will be preparing for everything. Yeah, you've got, you have lorries full of stuff. I mean, Matt has already mentioned the gyms, right? Because there's a gym there, but they want their own stuff. So they will take the stuff that they have at St George's Park and that will be... They'll take their own gym. They'll take the St George's gym to America. Matt can explain the gym better than I can but as in you'll have your Watt bikes all your equipment like that Just stuff they're used to basically Yeah They'll then they tend not to fly stuff where possible because stuff can get damaged in fact they like to drive stuff but obviously you're going to have to fly stuff from the UK to the US and you usually have there's a kit man called Pat Frost who has been doing England for a long time and does a lot of the Premier League teams as well.

41:29So him and his team usually take care of this sort of stuff and they will drive across the US. And they do it for the European matches. They will leave one, two weeks before a match to get their stuff all the way over to Albania or Serbia or Latvia to pick up three matches that England played in European qualifying. They must get through some podcasts, eh? I've got some good playlists. But as in, just to return on what you mentioned earlier, and I think Matt, again, might be better positioned to explain this, but as in, you actually lose performance for every hour loss to time zone change, right?

42:09Your HRV, heart rate variability. Ideally, you want high variability, I think. Yes, that's right, yeah. But for every hour that you move from your time zone as you fly, that decreases. and that means your sharpness goes. Matt, again, you might be in a better position to explain this. What you're saying is absolutely right. It does. Yeah. I actually... My brother, who's a doctor, explained this to me just the other day because I flew back from Kansas City, didn't sleep all night, then woke up on the Saturday morning with my body clock saying it was 1am and went out with my mates on the bike and I felt absolutely like I was dying.

42:48Right. and he actually explained the sort of biology behind that. So, yeah, Hamza's absolutely right, and I should have said that. Another factor is minimising how many time zones you cross when you go to every game. Fascinating. I totally get why they're doing it. I think they're really smart. Really prepped. In terms of the heat, just to finish then, we've discussed it in the first half of the show. Do you think they've done enough to prepare for this heat, or can you just never prepare for this heat? Don't know. That's fascinating. I mean, the FA gave us a presentation. They talked about the work of Steve Kemp, who's a sort of performance head and has really been hot on this.

43:22But we don't know because nobody seems to really crack that science and altitude in this setting, in this tournament setting. They're going to be doing a bit of work with, you know, people who've worked with the British Olympians. They've did sort of biometric tablets last year when they put players in kind of sweat tents, got them pedalling on the bike, gave them... It's essentially like a digital thermometer in a pill that you swallow and then it beams back your core temperature. So they did all that work on the players that were out in Spain last year with all of this in mind. And one of the sort of buzz phrases that the FA have been talking about is, this World Cup will be one in the planning as much as the playing.

44:13so they've gone massive on this. Interesting. But part of me just wonders whether Argentina would turn up with just give the ball a Messi and not do any of this. So the under-21s, they played their European Championship last summer in Slovakia. Again, it was really hot. They also had heat tents and one of the things that the FA were and people at the FA were quite keen on stressing was that they believed that they would grow into the tournament and if you look at the... That was also because of the tactics and some players were unavailable because of the Club World Cup and so on. But if you look at the way that the team played, take the second match against Czech Republic, super hot, tough conditions, very slow, sluggish, turgid match.

45:00And then you look at how fresh and well they played when they picked up a bit of momentum later on in the tournament as they built through it and the players had acclimatised and adjusted and they had all that, they had those sessions in the heat tents. I think there is a logic to that as well, that you can develop through a tournament, you can acclimatise. It takes a little bit of time, as Matt has explained before, to adjust to altitude specifically, but as you get into that rhythm in a tournament, you can build towards it and usually you will try from a sports science perspective to build in some sort of peaks and troughs.

45:37There'll be slower days and there'll be days where you are ready to, you're primed ready to attack them and i think that we'll try and set them up so they are primed for the knockouts let's just really quickly the the point of the the heat tablets is that everyone's body's different so it's established that every person's going to need a slightly different program i mean the proof will be in the pudding of course but it sounds like they're pretty well prepped this england camp and they have been in this guise for a long time this was this is the legacy of gareth southgate the world has moved on a lot since peter reeb was chugging back trying to Chase Maradona.

46:09Yeah. Yeah, they're at the forefront of sports science. And as Johnny was saying, they're tapping into that British Olympic expertise because we've seen it over the years. An athlete, a distance runner as talented as Paula Radcliffe, but in Athens, when it would have been her peak time of her career to try and win the Olympic marathon, in Athens, sometimes there's just nothing you can do. Her body was not, it's just struggled in the heat compared to the way it would have, the way she could run a marathon in April in London or in November in New York. And she suffered massively. Everyone's different.

46:54And I'm sure because you, you know, the FA can't get into this. They can't tell us that certain players actually cope really badly in the heat, but they will have the data on every individual they've looked at. And I'm sure that that would be a factor in every selection decision because I think physically it's going to be an incredibly demanding tournament. Some of the things that maybe we can never know, but maybe we'll see play out on the pitch. Let's bring it back then to the players and what might happen and let's finish with some predictions then. Johnny, I'll come back to the squad and a conversation we had.

47:29We actually had it on the Snap Reaction podcast that we gave you last week on the morning of the squad being confirmed. When I put it to you that actually we're amongst this squad, I think most people, journalists and fans alike, could roughly pick the starting 11 for the team now if we could with a few question marks. And I would say we've got Jordan Pickford in goal, Rhys James at right back, shout in at any point if I'm getting these wrong, Nico O 'Reilly at left back, Mark Guayy at centre back, and then the first question mark over Konza. or Stones if Stones is fit to play but you bet on Konza at the moment but Stones might be a man that comes in when experience is needed then Declan Rice and Elliot Anderson Elliot Anderson what a journey he's had as well I think about a year ago all the question marks who can play next to Declan Rice we found the answer to that and then you've got Pukai Osaka back for Arsenal much needed for them and for England and then probably the two other question marks who is the number 10 Morgan Rodgers or Jude Bellingham and who is the left winger Anthony Gordon or Marcus Rashford?

48:29Would that be fair? I think that's absolutely bang on. I mean, I think the one that's going to fascinate everyone is Rodgers or Jude in the number 10. My money at the moment would be on Morgan Rodgers and probably Rashford on the left. I think, again, when you go back through it, the sort of ground zero for Tuchel was the 5-0 against Serbia. That's where it all started from really after his sort of teething troubles. and I think he'll go as close to that team as he can and Morgan Rodgers had his signature performance that night. Will that mean Anthony Gordon as well? Did he start that game? I think he did, yeah.

49:05I mean, maybe that one's more... Because Rashford came on and scored, so maybe... And has finished the season strong. And has finished well and he loves Rashford. I think Harry Kane might start up front, I think, or just for full clarity. Kane will probably get the nod, yeah. So that's why I think Rodgers is slightly ahead and what Tuchel likes is combinations of players. I think he thought the midfield, him, Anderson and Rice, worked really well together and he's big on trying to move the ball through that middle zone quickly to play the game higher up the pitch and I think he feels that Rodgers does that and Jude wants to have a few more touches.

49:43I'll come on to that theme exactly in a second but Matt, you're shaking your head at the notion that Jude Bellingham will not start for England. I think Rodgers has been terrific but it's all very well leaving behind players like Palmer and Foden. My word, if we're going on the pitch without one of the best players in the world. It is crazy, isn't it? I think the other, what is it, 48 teams? I think the other 47 of you think we've lost our minds. But it could well happen. No, no, I think it could. There were people I was speaking to last week that are convinced it will happen. Interesting. but I just look for all the sort of slight issues that Tuka might have had with Bellium the fact that he wouldn't speak to the media in the last European Championship that's not an issue for us that's not a journalist complaining it annoys the other players if they're not on a rotor if one player is being treated as a special case so there are slight teething problems with or there have been with Jude but I just think he's such a dynamite talent that I just the team should be built around him it shouldn't even be a for me and look these guys cover more football matches than I do I have a different job but but I just I don't get that Hamza then on that point then and bringing in that point Johnny made that Tuchel has referenced you The area of the pitch where play can get squashed and suffocated and he wants to turn and get it higher up the pitch.

51:19Explain that a little bit for us and also maybe give you a view on the Rodgers-Bellingham scenario. Let me start on the second point first. There's a coach that I know that worked with Jude Bellingham and he described him as the boy wonder. He said that how could you not build the team around him? Was there a view on him starting or not? as Matt says that dynamite quality to just take a game until every moment you saw at the Euros and you've seen the Champions League as well he gives you he wins games and those qualities it's the simplest quality to be decisive that is what separates the very very best players from the rest if you can perform in moments which are crucial then you are one of the best players and if you think about the game slightly differently and see opportunities that others don't, that also sets you apart as a great player.

52:15That imaginative quality. And I think Bellingham has both things. Your first point, sorry, was... In terms of why it might not be him and some of the points Johnny made about why Morgan Rodgers offers something slightly different in turning the game quicker, maybe not taking the touches that Bellingham takes. I think probably the best place to actually start is how they play without the ball. And Rodgers is a better presser. I was going to say, I don't think anyone will... will disagree with me saying that actually. He's more diligent in the way that he presses, more intense. He has a better regard for space around him as well and that's really important.

52:48So when you press, you've got to understand where are your teammates and where are your opponents around you? Because if you just run emotionally, then you could leave your midfielders in a 2v3 situation where you've got two players and the opposition have three. So when the ball gets bounced around you, suddenly they've got three midfielders, they knock it around your midfielders and they're breaking forward and it's a counter-attack. So you've got to be really, really diligent and smart in the way that you press. And I think Rodgers has that as a... That is the one area where he has a very significant advantage over Bellingham.

53:21You could then get into issues of who can pass better, who can think better, all that sort of stuff. That could be a whole show, Hamza. But then it's actually much closer. And whilst you'd probably lean on saying, well, Bellingham is a better goal scorer, He's a better player in terms of finding space in the box. He's more creative. You're going from a 9 out of 10 to an 8 or 7 out of 10 when you're comparing him to Rodgers. You're not really losing too much there. But when you compare the out-of-possession dynamic, Rodgers has that advantage. And Tuchel loves him. He's spoken really, really fondly about him.

54:00But yeah, I think the key bit is how he plays out-of-possession and understands a role and also how he understands his role in relation to Kane's. That he gives Kane space and that he links with him is really important. If you go back to the 2024 Euros, there weren't many passes between the two. And you look at the Albanian match, I think the two passes between them, Bellingham and Kane, you want a good number 10, number nine dynamic when you've got a nine like Kane. And this is a point, you know, if we're talking about building teams around players, this is Harry Kane's team and that's how Thomas Tuchel sees it and fascinatingly he was talking about bringing in Ivan Toney partly because Kane said I like playing with this guy so again when it comes to the choice of the 10 I think Harry Kane's kind of requirements or that would be one that would be almost the first question Thomas Tuchel asks is what suits Harry?

54:56Interesting Chaps we could keep talking about this for hours as I said we could have done Morgan Rodgers v. Jude Bellingham for an hour but got to wrap up with a couple of quickfire things firstly I'm now convinced that Dan Byrne is the most important player off the bench after Hamza's comments in part one. Any other suggestions for players that could be key off the bench or maybe in these games that we're talking about for rotation? Who are the key players from rotation for you that you're looking at in that squad, Johnny? Well, we've covered Tony a little bit for special plays. I think Eze, we haven't mentioned him.

55:23Now, given he's left Palmer and Foden behind, Eze's arguably gone ahead of those two. Not Rodgers and Bellingham. were always going to go. And we've seen him transform Arsenal at a key point where they needed that little something. So I think he could be the hidden wild card. I mean, funnily enough, looking at the squad today, people like Jaro Quanzo is going to be quite important, I think. You know, Tino Livermento, it's going to be the unsung guys and the squad might stand or fall by how well they can, not starting games, but just how well they can go in and relieve the other guys and give them a good half an hour here and there.

56:11Any other guys? It sounds like Jude Bellingham's the ultimate impact south. It could be, yeah, though. 20 minutes off the bench for Jude Bellingham. 100 million pound impact south. Fantastic. What could possibly go wrong? Hamza, any such outs for you? I think Kobe Maynou is going to be really interesting. That he hadn't played much earlier this season meant that he is one of the few players that will actually be fresh coming into this. Just compare him to Declan Rice and Elliot Anderson, who've played half the season. He's got perfect World Cup preparation. Yeah, because they've logged 4 ,000 up to 5 ,000 minutes, which is just a lot in the legs.

56:45Mainly he hasn't. He's done a lot of work with some coaches recently on building his speed as well. So he noticed that that was a weaker area of his. So if you look at him now, he's bigger he's stronger despite everyone thinks he's a small guy because he was 18 but he's quite tall as well and now he's faster as well so I think he will become a genuine option at number 8 I do wonder though if they've got enough cover at 6 because Anderson like I said he's in the red zone already and the red zone is a sports science term about which relates to your physiological load the cover for him is Henderson as we discussed before older players might struggle a bit in heat and altitude and Henderson actually at Liverpool had this record where if he averaged a certain amount of minutes over three matches in a week he'd usually pick up an injury right oh god so you then excuse me think about who's the cover player there I'm not sure that Maynard can cover as a six then you could move Rice there but you lose a lot of quality that he brings as a number eight there so I think that's going to be a really interesting dynamic and it would be a bit of a worry area, actually, if anything to me.

58:02You started off saying it's important and now you've got me worried by the end of it. We'll see if that goes the same way with this one. Let's finish with our predictions. I'm not going to... How far can England go? Every time I've done the Times World Cup predictor on the website, I've had England basically get into the final and then I can't quite bring myself to click on them to win it because they're either facing France or Spain. I think they've got a great chance in this tournament. Guys, how far do you think England can go? Matt, I'll start with you. my big worry is if they do win the group and I think that's a big if because you know I was watching the FA Cup final and thinking blimey we're playing that that bloke's going to be up front for Ghana you know and then I feel it's a bit like when we went Totti in 2012 we wouldn't be right about this 40 year old genius who's still playing for Croatia yes but no I I think the big hurdle is going to if they win the group it's going to be 8 ,000 feet against Mexico I think it's going to be really tough I know on paper you should beat Mexico but I think at the Azteca stadium against Mexico at 8 ,000 feet and it sounds like we're just going to drop in there and think we can deal with those conditions you know it's a story we need to get into to try and actually understand how they're preparing for those challenges but I think that's going to be really difficult.

59:19Hamza? Backwards logic is never great but let's do it anyway England are ranked 4th in the world so I think the semi-final should be the minimum that they aim for for this to be considered a sort of successful tournament. From there, well, if you win a semi-final, you win the final. Let's finish with a perfect bit of journalistic impartiality by finishing with the words from a Scotsman on England's chances at this World Cup. Johnny? We've talked about Tuchel and his character earlier. I think the thing with him is he can win it or it could be a disaster. And that's one of the fascinating things about covering him.

59:56That's been his whole career, but he does give England that ability to win. As I say, he also, it could be a capella all over again. I think Matt's, it's a really good point in terms of like the draw. I was looking at it again today and maybe hadn't fully digested how difficult England's draw is. You know, win the group and it could be Senegal in the round of 32. Senegal, pretty decent. Mexico, Mexico City. Brazil Argentina Spain or France I mean Doddle I don't know where the problem is It's in the bag It's going home But You know Tough If you write a prediction Last four but that's it Last four but that's it Triumph or disaster Was the other line I was enjoying from there Johnny Because as journalists That's what we love Triumph or disaster We'll have to leave it there Hamza, Khalid, Lunat Matt Lawson And Johnny Northcroft Thank you very much For joining me Make sure you're following All these guys On all the social media platforms and keep up to date with them on the times website as well they are the best team to be following england at this tournament thank you very much for joining us and listening make sure you're following us as well we'll be back with some more world cup preview shows very soon we'll see you then

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