WORLD CUP 2026 DRAW - REACTION SPECIAL

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is our World Cup draw reaction special with me, Tom Clark, and as usual, I'm joined by the former Scotland under-21 international and football journalist, Gregor Robertson. And for the first five minutes of this show, we also have the Sunday Times football correspondent and the man who will be following England next summer, Johnny Northcroft. Now, Johnny, unlike FIFA, we're going to keep this snappy and short, as I know you're writing a reaction piece which listeners can read on the Times website very soon. But just a few quick questions.

0:36Firstly, your reaction to England's Group L drawn against Croatia, Panama and Ghana. How do you think Thomas Tuchel will feel about that one? Yeah, well, Tuchel was impassive when the camera went to him in the arena, but I think he'll be secretly pleased. He won't be ecstatic. It could have been a better draw, but it could have been a lot worse. I tend to try and look at the detail of these things because England tend to get through their groups. So it's more what does it mean for the tournament? And, you know, a couple of things. England start very late. Group L is the last one to start. It strikes me that it's going to mean a really long camp, which is a test for one of the England factors that we've seen during previous tournaments.

1:25So from when they arrive in Florida to play the warm-up games, it could be something like during the first, it'll be 16 days before the first game. but avoid you know the big guns until I think this round of 16 could play Brazil possibly Argentina in a semi-final but the last two teams that England lost to in tournaments Spain and France can't play until the final the group itself I mean it's on paper Croatia are the best team they could have drawn from part 2 and they you can never write them off. They always surprise us by how well they do at tournaments, but they are a really aging squad. I think they've got Modric still playing.

2:11He'll be 40. Perisic will be 37.

2:17It's a noggity, but familiar foe. Panama, you can't really get much better than that. Managed by a former Leeds manager, Thomas Christensen, which is interesting. But England, you know, beat them 6-1 in 2018. I think England will be quite happy. Ghana's a bit of an unknown factor. They haven't been doing quite as well as their talent pool suggests. But, you know, Mohamed Koudas aside, you know, when Jordan Ayoub is your top scorer, you shouldn't be too worried. So it could have been a lot worse. It's not a group of death. It's not an easy group either. As I say, the other factors are the things that interest me the most.

2:58But maybe I'm just thinking about how long I'm going to be away from home before we actually see a game played. Yeah, exactly. You're going to be in camp for a long time too, Johnny. As I say, at the start of this show, we need to let you go and write your analysis piece on the Times website. But it'd be silly of me not to ask you as a proud Scot how you feel about Scotland's group of deaths. You just mentioned England potentially not having a group of deaths. It's not the easiest for Scotland, it must be said. Group C against Brazil, Morocco and Haiti. What are your thoughts? I love it, actually.

3:27I absolutely love it. I mean, I won the 98 World Cup and I almost thought I was back in 98 with Brazil and Morocco coming out. But it's an opening game against Haiti, I think on the Eastern Seaboard, New York or Boston. Brazil last, so you know, we'll have qualified by then. That'll be a glorious thing. And chance to get revenge against Morocco. Morocco and Brazil are really, really formidable. Haiti, Scotland have got a terrible history against teams at that ill kit tournament, but come on you can't get much better than that and I think it's a good one for the fans given the games as England's games as well are sort of Eastern Seaboard which I think is good for both the fans conditions rise for the players and probably for people back home in terms of what time kick-offs will be The perfect summary to kick us off on this World Cup reaction show Johnny Northcroft will let you go to write that piece that I just mentioned thank you very much for joining us Thanks Cheers guys Johnny Northcroft there and he and the rest of the Times team will be the top team to follow in the next year and going up to the World Cup next summer.

4:32Make sure you're following them all across social media and following the Times Sport account as well. Gregor, now this is a tough one for me. I've got to say, because I'm tempted to ask you all about Scotland straight away, because I know that's all you care about and all you're thinking about. But I think we have to talk about England because that's what our listeners will care about. But just for a bit of therapy, how about like a maximum five-word reaction for Scotland's draw? or Johnny said he loved it. Five word reaction and we'll come back to it later on. I will take it. I will take it.

5:02That's a lot more positive than I thought you'd be, I must say. So I'll keep that theme in mind when I bring up Scotland again in the second half of the show. And just coming back to a couple of the themes that Johnny mentioned there with England's group Gregor, Thomas Tuchel's got to be very happy with this, hasn't he? I mean, I think so. And when you look at the, who could have been pulled out from the respective pots? Johnny's right, Croatia a nation that you've I don't know, they just always seem to find reserves from somewhere to produce in major tournaments but they're not the same force that they once were Panama, you know I was looking through the squad and there are not many players you recognise it's not, it's that's going to be a point of difference in itself and I'll probably give England some issues, some problems that are a bit unexpected but again from the teams that could have been pulled from that pot that was a winner and Ghana have got some really good players and a lot of whom we're familiar with so I look at England's group and I think it's not exciting but it's a bit sticky Croatia are a sticky team I reckon Croatia it's not going to be an exciting game they will suck their life out of it and and trying to match England physically, which will be one of England's big strengths at this tournament.

6:28I still think England will get beyond that and I think England will obviously win the group. I think they will. But I just think I look at it and I think it's a bit sticky. That's the word I would reach for rather than exciting. Yeah, sticky is a good way of describing England's group. I've got to say, I enjoyed Johnny talking about Croatia being an ageing side. I feel like I've been in sports journalism 15 years and Croatia's side has always been aging. I'm very excited. I'll know I've completed football journalism and World Cup history when Croatia are going into a tournament with a young and exciting side and not aging and sticky.

7:02Just on a point Johnny mentioned there, Gregor, in terms of the players, Johnny talked about England having a late start to this tournament and being a long camp and a long build-up. As a former player, how do you think that will affect them? It's a long season, a long build-up that starts now to this World Cup and then they're one of the last teams to get going. I mean, there are two ways you can look at it. Obviously, you know, Johnny's right, that's a long time in camp and the further you go, the more that becomes, the further you go in the tournament, the more that becomes possibly an issue.

7:31But it's also more time, when time has been very, very precious and he's always spoken about that. You know, he could count the days from day one in the job, the number of days he had in training with them and he often referenced that. And so it gives him more time to work on the things he feels are important on the training pitch so I think there are two ways of looking at that and I think actually you know I would lean towards it being possibly being a positive because the further England go in the tournament I don't feel like fatigue mental or otherwise will be an issue you're at a World Cup where you're among the favourites to win it and that should be motivation enough Just before we take a little break Gregor how did you enjoy following this draw obviously with Scotland back in it and also the professional side of things preparing for this podcast I mean, they always drag these things out, don't they?

8:20But this really took the exception. I mean, it was a phenomenal bit of time wasting. It really was. My God, yeah. I mean, you don't know where to start, Tom. Like, the kind of loving with Donald Trump at the start was worse than you could ever have envisaged. Yeah, you knew it'd be bad, but my God. Yeah, and then just continually cutting to kind of former legends of the game and they're not even having subtitles so when many of them were speaking in Spanish it was just fair enough but you know a lot of viewers just settling in the UK wouldn't know what they're talking about and they kept doing it even in between groups and in between when the draw finally got to go and they kept doing it so yeah it was extraordinary and like FIFA are just beyond the pale really are the thing that was just struck I had to remind myself of while it was going on is that football always kind of, despite all of that and all the noise around it and all the nonsense, football always steals the show.

9:21So we've got to remind ourselves of that while we're enduring this nonsense. Yes, I can't wait for the football to steal the show. I've got to say, I was following it with my wife and she was like, what's the problem? Nicole Scherzinger, Robin Williams, Kevin Hart. It sounds like great fun. And I was like, yeah, but it's meant to be about the football. This is like going to the Mercury Prize Awards and then making you sit through like FA Cup third round highlights before you get to like the singing. It's absolutely bonkers. Anyway, we're going to take a little bit, a little short break now, but we're going to come back and talk a little bit more about Scotland's tricky group.

9:53And we'll look at some of the other groups that were drawn today as well. We'll see you in a sec.

10:12Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is our World Cup draw reaction show with me, Tom Clark. In the first half of the show, we had the thoughts of Johnny Northcroft and we've got Gregor Robertson with me too. Now, Gregor, let's talk a bit more about Scotland because we talked about it briefly at the start. You said, I'll take it. Johnny said he loved it. You're lying. You're both lying. Come on, let's be honest. You're both fuming. It's the second half of the show now. Some people might have switched off. this is a safe space it's just me and you chatting, you're fuming let's be honest.

10:46Look I was fuming actually with the way that the draw unfurled because as we said it was so convoluted and the fact that two nations from the same confederation couldn't be drawn in the same group kind of meant that a litany of African nations were drawn and couldn't go into this group because Morocco were in it and I said before we came on I was looking at the group with Canada and Switzerland and the group with USA in Australia, I'm thinking, yeah, that would be really nice, would like that and then I even let the listeners into this message into our group saying, Scotland are getting the Brazil group, a few seconds later how'd it come, so it was like it seemed nailed on, and when it was Brazil and Morocco, you think, oh god, for several reasons one is, it's a rerun of 1998 which is the last time we were there, and it didn't end well we played Brazil in the opening game of the tournament and lost 2-1 and played really well actually and then we lost 3-0 to Morocco which was not a good one after a draw with Norway on that occasion but then when Haiti even pulled out it just sort of put a different complexion on things for me I mean like for all that Haiti is a remarkable story and you know the first time in like half a century they've made the World Cup you know all the kind of turmoil in that nation for them to have done this is a brilliant story but Scotland should beat them Scotland should beat this should be 80 listen look there's a lot of things Scotland should have done even in my time of following football if there's anything more nailed on than Scotland opening their finally back in the World Cup here we go boys losing 2-1 to Haiti then I don't know what it is I was just reading that they're trying to persuade Wilson Isidore the Sunderland forward to come out to join them before the World Cup so he's guaranteed to bang a hat trick and something like that will happen I know Tom but this is a time where you try and be positive for a little while yeah of course Morocco Morocco were a great story in Qatar you know Portugal Spain the France game was epic like they were a great story but that was a while ago and I'm looking through the results and they're a sea of sea of greens sea of wins but they're not I would say they've really been tested greatly and I don't know they were right to live into the world for a reason they're a good they're a good team with some very very very good players but I think it could have been worse Brazil's just a glamour game.

13:10Brazil's like, you know, that's one side of what you want when you've not been in World Cup for three decades. Exactly. You want to play against Brazil. Yeah, absolutely. Until it's 5-0. Yeah. Until you've lost both the first two games, 6-0 and 4-0, and then you're facing Brazil. I mean, listen, there is also a part of me that thinks, you know, Scotland, Steve Clarke, if they were in a group, much as I'm making the jokes about Haiti, if they were in one of those groups that you cited, either Group A or Group B, Mexico, South Africa, South Korea, and one of the UA for playoffs, or Canada, Qatar, Switzerland.

13:46You know, everyone would be going, this is their chance. And then they'd ball it up. Actually, you'd probably better off going into it with people thinking they've got no chance here. And almost with the style of play as well, potentially. We'll look at, like Michael Grant teed up this draw brilliantly in a preview piece that I said in the podcast the other day. He summed it up, he said, like, oh, Argentina? oh, just think what they could do to us. And then it was Haiti? Oh, just think what they could do to us. So, you know, that's the truth. There's this bit of fatalism sort of deep within the psyche for good reason.

14:21And like no matter who we pulled, there would be a bit of that fatalism. So it might as well be a glamour game against Brazil and then the ultimate kind of game that we should win against Haiti. Let's see how it goes. Yeah, you've convinced me Scotland have actually got the best draw they could possibly have got. maybe that's the cocktails I've been drinking on holiday. Let's just have a quick final look at some of the other groups. As I mentioned there, Group A is potentially where Republic of Ireland could end up along with Mexico, South Africa and South Korea. Group B is potentially very interesting as it could have Wales or Northern Ireland in there alongside Canada, Qatar and Switzerland.

14:57What are the other groups that have caught your eye? One of them for me, I've got to say, Group J, Argentina, Algeria, Austria and Jordan, for no reason other than it sounds nice. genuinely that's the only reason I thought that just sounds a little bit different and Group K Portugal Uzbekistan Colombia and another one of the playoffs Portugal Uzbekistan and Colombia just sounds like a party to me that sounds like a good old laugh what about you what caught your eye France Senegal and Norway I mean that's three very good teams Senegal obviously having beaten France in previous World Cup like that that's that's England very recently as well yes it did that looks like a a really strong strong group to me I like the look of Germany Ivory Coast and Ecuador I think Ecuador I've got a really really good young group of players in their squad and I think could surprise one or two when Ivory Coast are a really strong team so yeah like I say I looked at I looked at the draw and you say you know if Wales and Northern Ireland got in with Canada Qatar and Switzerland that's a great draw it really is and the same would have been true of the United States, Paraguay and Australia so I'm a bit jealous there but yeah it's one of those where you kind of cut to the cameras cut to the managers of the nations like you saw Ralf Raniak when he pulled out and Austria pulled out Argentina and I was sure he said there's Messi I don't know those games where kind of Austria were really impressive as well in the Euros and you know they're possibly another kind of they're one of the nations that have been labelled dark horse for a while so that would be a really interesting game against Argentina yeah which do you think the group is that most qualifies as like the hipsters group you know the one that as you approach it you know your mate down the pub who thinks he really knows like European football or South American football starts going nah nah lads this is the one you want I can't decide whether it's Netherlands, Japan, Tunisia and one of the playoff teams or maybe it's Spain, Saudi Arabia, Uruguay and Cape Verde.

17:11That sounds quite hip to me. I mean, yeah, Cape Verde's story as well is extraordinary. So that could well be the one. Yeah, I'm not sure. I think Japan, Tunisia, no, it's not exciting. Netherlands always underwhelm as well. But they've got a great kit though. Yeah, they do. Got a great kit. Netherlands, Japan, there's two great kits right there. I think kits are important to a hipster draw, that's got to be said Yeah, look, Mexico as well, I think another part of this is of course the locations and seeing Mexico and South Africa and Mexico City, the colour and the noise and the vibrancy of that is going to be remarkable, like a proper assault on the senses so there are going to be some sights to behold as well and that is a big part of it where the nations are being drawn in the eastern side of the country is good for several reasons like good places to visit for the fans also good for the time zone and some great stadiums as well to play at so yeah it's all very real now Tom it's getting exciting Yeah it's exciting indeed now the ceremony's finally over we can get excited about the football and it's time to finish Gregor with maybe the most stupid prediction I have ever asked you for who is going to win the 2026 World Cup oh my god just say Scotland for a laugh why not no I mean let's be honest it's probably Spain Spain I'm going England there you go I've said it I've said it now and I'm going to say it every single show until next summer we'll leave it there if you that's the way you get Scotland switching off exactly listen this is what you and Johnny are for you've got to cater to some of the England fans as well Gregor Robertson and Johnny Northcroft thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening if you've got views on the World Cup draw whether it's Scotland England or any of the other nations get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk but we'll leave it there and we'll be back on Monday we'll see you then