WORLD CUP 2026: Scotland special - Craig Levein

0:00Craig Levein: You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over$900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99 % of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings by$946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025.

0:34Craig Levein: Potential savings will vary. Business is booming. But you know what really helped? Zero. The accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think unpaid bills were just part of it. Ugh. But batch payments? Wow. Automated accounts payable? Even better. All in one place? That's a big one. and I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is the first of our special World Cup preview shows.

1:16Craig Levein: I'm Tom Clark and I'm delighted to introduce a special podcast recorded by our colleagues in Scotland previewing their team's chances at this year's tournament discussing just what it means for Scotland to be going to a World Cup for the first time in nearly 30 years and hearing from a former player and manager of the national team Craig Levine. Craig joins our sports reporter Mark Palmer and our Scottish football correspondent Michael Grant. Michael, over to you.

1:46Mark Palmer: Hello and welcome to the First Times Scotland World Cup podcast. It's been 28 years since we've had the chance to do this. This room has been ready. These guests have been sitting in these chairs. I've been here. The script has been done. We've just waited for the team to deliver. And it finally has. My name is Michael Grant. I'm the Scottish football correspondent for The Times. I will be going to America to cover this tournament. Scotland's three at least games. And I'll be joined by my colleague, Mark Palmer, who will be with me for the games against Haiti and Morocco and Brazil. And we're also delighted to have the special guest of our former Scotland player, former Scotland manager, now a man who informs and amuses the nations on podcasts like these, Craig Levine.

2:35Mark Palmer: So we're going to have a kick around all the kind of major issues that are facing the Scotland fans, the Scotland journalists, the players, the managers at this tournament and I guess Craig, the pressure, the excitement, it all builds, it all grows we qualified months ago, we had that brilliant night against Denmark, the Scott McTominay goal, the Kenny McLean goal the Kieran Thune goal Shanklin's tapping we had all that and it's now it's becoming real now isn't it because we're just about there

3:11Michael Grant: Yeah, it's been quite a wait, isn't it for the summer to come round and the tournament to start but yeah, it's the greatest show on earth as they say and I firmly believe that I was fortunate enough to play in Italia 90 and the whole thing was just such an amazing experience

3:30Mark Palmer: You've been in a winning Scotland team at the World Cup I don't know if you can say that

3:35Michael Grant: No, that's true I suppose I'm not happy about that but there was only one I'd rather we qualified every four years and it would be much harder

3:49Mark Palmer: Mark, I'm old enough to have been at that game when he was playing in Genoa against Sweden Beat on 2-1 you're a young whippersnapper comparatively but it's exciting isn't it the whole country is getting completely wrapped up in it

4:03Craig Levein: that was my that was my first real World Cup that one I've still got the sticker boot in my top drawer at home and then obviously we missed out in 94 France 98 was a great experience the opening game and everything that came with it, all the Rasmatais and putting in a really good show that day as well, a good showing against Brazil and we're lighting the game for much of it and then you kind of think well this is just what happens and I've imagined for years of edition it's even more like that because we did qualify every time and then there's just been this desert and many years within that where it felt a million miles off like it might not happen again so to have it now on our doorstep or not on our doorstep in terms of it being on the immediate horizon is just a really special feeling I've found for the whole country

4:49Mark Palmer: When you were the manager Craig were you very conscious that the country had already even at that point been waiting a long time and was there a lot of expectation within the SFA of getting back or pressure to get back?

5:01Michael Grant: Well, I think there was a need to get back. I mean, financially, of course, it's worth a hell of a lot of money to the SFA. And of course, that then can cascade down to other things in football. I have very fond memories of obviously playing in the World Cup. It's every manager who gets the Scotland's job that you have to have this inside you that you've got to try and get to tournaments. That's the job, basically, you've got to get to tournaments. and I think Steve's I know it was a little bit disappointing when the Germany situation but the fact that we've been and we know what it's all about and a lot of the players who are going to be going to America and Canada have experienced and I think that is absolutely vital, I really do because experienced players who have been at the tournament before know all about the stresses and strains of playing in a World Cup.

5:59Michael Grant: And that's what it is because it's so different to what you're doing at club football. Even the moving around bit for different venues, you've got the temperature, which is going to be difficult. And there's so many variables. And if you know nothing about it, it's so much more stressful if you've experienced it before. And that's where I think guys like Andy Robertson and Kieran Tierney and Grant Hanley. Hanley, yes, sorry. And so there's a whole list of players there that you could look at and go, he's been in the World Cup, he's been in the World Cup, the Euros, World Cup, whatever. And I think that those guys are really, really important.

6:42Michael Grant: Really important. And then we've got the other ones who we've seen grow in the last sort of four years or so. And McTominay in particular has been a great success story that's been for him, you know, leaving Man United and then going across making his name in Italy and he won the player of the year. So when was the last time we could boast that we've got a player who won the player of the year in whatever league, you know, it's been quite a long time.

7:17Mark Palmer: It's interesting though, I mean, Steve Clarke, during that campaign, he became the longest serving manager we've ever had. He's now in something like, he's in the mid-70s in terms of international games, seven years in charge. I mean, God, that must feel like a long time. Genuinely, to be in charge of the national team, it must be. Yeah, I think it is.

7:36Michael Grant: But I mean, if you go back before that, and I was one of the guys that tried to get us to the World Cup, but there was quite a lot of other managers couldn't get us to any of the tournaments. And I mean, that in itself for me, I think is more about all of these managers aren't terrible managers that have been in Scotland but it's the quality of the player that makes the team and I think, yes of course a manager has the sprinkle of the magic dust when it's needed but it's the quality of players and if I look at where all those players that we've got are playing right now, there's very few of them that are not in top leagues you know I remember my time back 2010-12 I think it was I was down watching championship games in England on a regular basis watching the old firm I wasn't flying out to Italy or you know wherever it was you know to watch our guys playing tough light football well listen it's just cyclical isn't it you know and I mean Steve's done a fantastic job absolutely brilliant job he's got a great I suppose great cohesion in the squad and you can tell by looking at it from the outside and how much they enjoy playing for Scotland.

8:54Michael Grant: To be honest, I know that there are some players during my time as manager who would rather have an injury and not come along to play. And again, that probably reflects quite badly on me because I've not created an environment where they want to be coming along. you know so but I think once the thing starts to build a little bit of momentum and it gains speed and then even qualifying for Germany and at Occhi it was a big disappointment but as I said to you it's layered another experience for those players who've been there and there's a lot of them to be able to feel that they can handle the situation a little bit better that's what I'm hoping

9:38Craig Levein: that's my big hope and there'll be a feel there as well from that experience one of those guys who know they probably didn't give a full account of themselves at either of those tournaments. There was a frustration to go out and say, well, this is who we're actually all about, what we're showing in the qualification campaign rather than at the tournament.

9:53Mark Palmer: It's interesting though, I mean, Steve has done what no Scotland manager has ever done, taking the company to three tournaments. As I say, longest serving manager that there's ever been. So that's an honest credit to him and that'll be remembered forever but fans are impatient aren't they and so it's like okay what's the next thing and because we didn't play that well at the two Euros so far now the pressure is okay now let's stand up and let's perform sort of thing and that will be the kind of expectation we're getting at the tournament brilliant to be back fantastic to be back but now let's see

10:35Michael Grant: but we want we want that expectation yeah you know and I think the players now are ready for that expectation you know so I am very confident

10:43Craig Levein: I think that comes naturally as well with the other factor with this new format that you know that in itself you don't need to drill down too deep into it to know that there are more opportunities for countries of our size and stature to be you know to be progressing there so that that layers on another level doesn't it yeah

10:59Mark Palmer: well there is that that's the old Scottish attitude well done well done we're doing this I said that to you before we on the way up that the AT game worries me because it's there's a lot that's favourable it's the first game, it's in the evening in Boston so the temperature might be a little bit more forgiving for Scotland it's against the weakest team on paper on the rankings and so on but there's so much resting on that game because the next two games are so difficult do you see it that way or do you just think here's the opportunity to land three points straight away.

11:41Michael Grant: I think it's very difficult in international football. It's not like you're playing a team who you play four times a season and you've been playing them four times a season for the last five years. You're coming up against unknown quantities. That's where the research and all the matches that are watched by the coaching staff and all the video analysts and all of that stuff's going on behind the scenes to build a picture of what we're facing. and it's Steve's job to then pick a team that he thinks can counter whatever it is the opposition are doing and that's all been played out over the last five, six, seven months so I think a lot of that work's already done and the players just require for me the knowledge of who they're playing against get to watch some footage you don't need to overdo it and you don't need to talk too much about the quality of the opposition I think it's just about finding things and evidence so you can show the players look this guy does this, this guy does this he's not very good at this, he's not very good at that and then you get your back line together defenders together to talk about these things and try and get everybody on the same page

12:59Mark Palmer: On paper the Haiti squad is okay, I mean it's got a couple of players that play in the English Premier League for example we're the last company that should be dismissive of anybody but would you worry maybe that the greater unity they have about national pride and they haven't been there for 50 years I guess that in itself could be quite a force that we'd have to deal with

13:21Craig Levein: Yeah, it's powerful but then it's how you can at the end of the day you're still leaving the guys on a pitch so whoever they've read up on and have been imbued with by their people is kind of you know still their football inability going up against our team's football inability you know without your negative hat on I think it's a great opportunity to to hit the ground running I mean you know when you're going up you compare it to last time out of the Euros when you're going up against the hosts in their in the opening game when the whole country's going mad for it you know that's a terrible terrible scenario in a lot of ways even the Czech game at Amden I don't know no crowd and whatnot but you know they are an established quality side whereas here we are a good side now as well so you should be going out with the attitude of a good side to say right well it's a game we should be winning so let's expect to win it I think we should embrace that

14:10Mark Palmer: What did you make of the qualifying campaign? Because it was strange wasn't it?

14:13Craig Levein: It's up and down a little bit wasn't it? Greece were the best team in that probably weren't it? The sweeper team Yeah

14:19Michael Grant: I mean there's certain things I think that give me a little bit more hope this time round I mean I love McTominay I think he's a talisman you know he's somebody who you look at the size of him and his pace and his strength and his power and the quality that he's got in his finishing which is something that's improved enormously over the last three or four years and he could be like he could be one of the best players at that tournament and then you've got Ganondoke you know who's obviously completely different but he's a speedboat isn't he you know what I mean and I don't care who he's playing against you know and these are things that we haven't had you know for a little while how far back we need to go to find a winger you know so we've got little things in there that I think elevate us a little bit just a little bit each time

15:20Mark Palmer: looking back one of the sore nights that you had was in Wales when we were winning. Yeah. And then Gareth Bale scores two and it goes and it turns it around and it beats 2-1.

15:32Michael Grant: Funnily enough, I remember that. Saw your eyes glazing over.

15:37Mark Palmer: But the point I was going to make was, I remember back then we were talking about, you know, God, who's our superstar?

15:44Michael Grant: But that's something that we haven't had for a long, long time. Seriously, especially in forward areas. We've had good players, don't get me wrong. a lot of good players but not the top, top players and I think you need four or five of those and let's be honest about this, our aim, or Scotland's aim in my opinion is to get out of the groups that is, whoever does that whoever's the first manager to do it, whoever the players are, they're going to be absolute heroes forevermore you know and you want to play for your national team to go to big tournaments to elevate yourself and give joy to the Scotland supporters.

16:33Michael Grant: So, for the first time in going to the team, I think we've got players who can do that, who can excel.

16:48Craig Levein: This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

17:08Mark Palmer: Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind?

17:12Craig Levein: Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

17:54Mark Palmer: Well, you know, you didn't have a McDominay or an Andy Robertson, a McGinn, you know, guys that are...

18:02Michael Grant: Yeah, I keep forgetting about John as well because I'm a huge fan of John McGinn. I mean, his legs are like tree trunks, you know, and he's one of the strongest players I've ever seen. He's quick, he's composed, he's cute. You know, I don't mean Luke's or anything.

18:22Michael Grant: he's a talisman as well for us he's often come to the rescue

18:28Craig Levein: and beyond that there's a layer of guys like Lewis Ferguson guys who again are playing at a very high level

18:34Michael Grant: who have yet to be given as many matches to be able to say look here's what I can do

18:42Mark Palmer: because if you remember the campaign obviously the kind of the whole fireworks of the Denmark game at home but the Denmark game away the 0-0 draw in Copenhagen was a terrific result

18:53Craig Levein: it was a terrific result it was like that

18:56Mark Palmer: was the other sign they were capable of at their best but then again the Belarus one was thinking and Steve said that himself you know

19:04Michael Grant: yeah I mean you're right there was this kind of rollercoaster wasn't there but I mean that doesn't matter now it doesn't matter there's enough things you can take out of there if Steve wants to to show the players and just keep them in a positive frame of mind. That's really important to get across the end as everybody's focused.

19:24Mark Palmer: You two have got us beating Haiti comfortably. I never said that. Morocco in the second game I think they're 8th in the rank.

19:37Michael Grant: What's the temperature going to be like for that game?

19:39Mark Palmer: Well again it's a 6 o 'clock kick-off in Boston so it will be hot but not hopefully not apparently but I mean they are such a fine team, Hakimi Diaz, the Real striker I watched them in the final of the AFCON against Senegal and they were an incredible game, it's still they lost it then they were given the tournament and now Senegal are appealing it so a lot going on there but they're a really substantial team aren't they absolutely you know we know from 98 not to take Morocco's likely because they've spanked us now yeah

20:21Craig Levein: and that's why you know without Puyallin-Breschner that first game is so pivotal isn't it because that is the clear and obvious opportunity to get three points on the board and that could be enough in and of itself you know the supercomputer is firing out different predictions depending on which title you read but that could well be enough to get through so So, you know, it would relieve a lot of pressure at that point, wouldn't it? Because that second game is going to be, you know, potentially in its own way just as tough as Brazil, isn't it? So, as you say, a quality side from back to front and playing a way that we've not necessarily gone up well against, you know, tactically before.

20:58Michael Grant: Do you know what Brazil just now in the FIFA rankings?

21:03Mark Palmer: Oh, they're high as well, six or something like that.

21:06Michael Grant: So then Morocco's eight. Yeah, so. So we need to get a point. We need to get a point at least. If he can win the first game.

21:13Mark Palmer: Yeah. I wondered what you think about that. Because if we do beat Haiti, I kind of think that I could see us ending on four points by taking a draw against somebody else. You'd have such a tailwind, wouldn't you, going into that second game. Maybe that's something we lost to.

21:26Michael Grant: I think that in my eyes, what spooked us in Germany was the first game. Yeah. You know, this way we're starting with a... I don't want to call them minnows because they're not. But I mean, they are...

21:39Mark Palmer: He'd probably say the same thing. Yeah, well, they won't be.

21:42Michael Grant: They'll be looking at other three teams as us being the weakest. So, of course, that's natural. But we're starting with an opportunity to get three points on the board. Now, that's not just three points on the board. That's three points on the board and all of the confidence that comes with that. And then we become, I think, more formidable to go into that second match.

22:07Mark Palmer: Yeah, I think that too. and also Mark I mean if you if we do get onto three points immediately it it lengthens the tournament for us because it gives us a chance of finishing third minimum doesn't it because of this format now of eight of the third place teams going through three points might be enough so at the very least after the Brazil game you're still alive if you're on three points yeah it would we've not really been in that territory before no

22:36Michael Grant: no it's difficult to say we haven't even really been that close have we I know no

22:41Craig Levein: and it's why you just cannot get away then from how huge that first match is because either way it's going to set a tone and open up a path or shut down a path very quickly so it's not all or nothing but it feels like it might be

22:54Mark Palmer: I want them to drag you two down over the course you usually manage it and then the final game obviously it's the kind of the Hollywood game isn't it against Brazil we always play Brazil at World Cups or so it seems I mean I suppose if you're to look on the bright side if Brazil have already qualified the third game is a good game against that it's Miami the heat will be greater than it's been in the two Boston games we might be dying on our bums to put it it becomes

23:31Michael Grant: because of the amount of players that are available you know I think that injuries fatigue maybe the heat effect and we've got not always completely comparable but we've got good players to bring on to make a difference in the matches as well so the heat because there's so many was it 30 players or something

23:59Mark Palmer: 26 to actually go but I mean

24:03Michael Grant: I don't think it was as many as that certainly when I was so there's extra players there that's my point and it might be that we need to you know rotate a little bit

24:14Mark Palmer: but also the point that you made earlier about having been at tournaments before now obviously the heat isn't the same in the tournaments we've been at but I know for a fact that the SFA are all over how to the sports science element of all this and how to keep players hydrated and you know electrolytes and glucose and all that sort of stuff so we're not suited to that temperature and those conditions but you would hope that they're prepared for that at least

24:38Michael Grant: Well, maybe the guys in Italy are a little bit better Well, exactly You know, prepared

24:43Craig Levein: I was overseeing Lewis Ferguson recently and he said that not only is it already roasting for a lot of games that he's playing at this time of year but they've been given specific kind of heat chamber work to do each of the members of the squad just going back to their club with a programme that's, you know, sauna's cryo chamber but from the opposite, yes, from the SFA so, as you say that's all in the hand as you'd expect and we've got

25:05Michael Grant: how many players do we have playing abroad now because Jack Henry's still abroad somewhere isn't he

25:09Craig Levein: half a dozen

25:10Michael Grant: Ferguson, Gilmore, McTominay Adams Wyndon, Mellon yeah half a dozen in Italy yeah where is Jack Henry Saudi Saudi so he's going to yeah so there's 7 you know I don't know where the if we've any more or not but yeah

25:27Mark Palmer: there was that great picture on social media isn't it of McTominay as he looked at Manchester and he's a kind of scrawny white tail-faced boy and now he's swarthy sun-kissed Mediterranean looking. There's a wasting in there for a solar thing isn't there? But yeah so I mean that there is um that that will be a factor they've got to deal with the and the humanity of.

25:49Michael Grant: And then the other part of course is

25:51Mark Palmer: the sprinkling of luck yeah yeah because you need it but you need it everybody needs it you know

26:01Michael Grant: and you're looking at goalkeepers making saves at crucial moments in matches

26:06Craig Levein: goalkeepers are what, France 98 it's a scrappy OG that does this eventually doesn't it?

26:12Mark Palmer: Under the 90 it was a late goal it was 1-0 with a late goal it is hard breaking obviously I mentioned it earlier but that Italia 90 campaign got off to the horrible start because we lose at home we lose two Costa Rica and then with all the pressure of the world on us beat Sweden 2-1 the game that you played in and brings everything alive again it was one of the great Scotland Knights at the World Cup it was fabulous

26:43Michael Grant: honestly it was an amazing experience even from arriving at the stadium and walking down the tunnel and the place just erupted you know you're going to go out with these shell suits remember the shell suits and you've out on the pitch and I managed to spot my family up in the stand. The atmosphere during the game was incredible.

27:08Mark Palmer: Was that old stadium in general?

27:10Michael Grant: That's right, Louis Ferrari.

27:12Mark Palmer: Yeah, it doesn't seem to be as prominent now because of the way the clubs have gone, but it was a brilliant kind of boxing stadium. I mean there was a big Sweden support but the Scotland support seemed enormous.

27:23Michael Grant: It was fabulous and we were so unlucky against Brazil, you know. that's as close as we've got to getting out of the group stages and you weren't able to play

27:36Mark Palmer: in the Brazil game, you played the 90s

27:38Michael Grant: I'd come back from I'd been out nearly three years on and off with injury and Andy Rochsburg gave me my first cap in I think it was January against Argentina, January 1990 90 I got my first cap and because I'd been out for so long at hearts I'd been training Monday Monday Tuesday and then resting for the rest of the week and doing a wee bit on Friday and then playing the game we had this seductive problem that as a result I'd been out for so long I'd strained it and it meant that during the matches I had to come off and rest and then I probably wouldn't train again till the tail end of the next week of play and I was getting by doing that but I understand I said this I don't know if I'm going to make I understand that Andy Roxburgh and Craig Brown were desperately keen to know that I was absolutely certain to last the 90 minutes so they did Craig Brown took me for a test basically rolling balls to me kicking them with my leg that had the adductor problem and I must have hit about a dozen balls and then I felt it just you know and then that was I knew from that moment that that was me out and I was annoyed that I had to go and do that but listen in some regard you become a manager and you understand you know could they afford to put me on the field if I was close to breaking down as a substitute used almost for me I thought I could play and I said that I said I think I could play but just let it settle down I think I can play but I thought we did well against Brazil you know and I look back I never thought for a million years that that would be the closer to it would come almost for this length of time it's crazy

29:42Mark Palmer: yeah I remember coming out of the ground in Chirin that night and I think from memory there was still a possibility of us going through a goal difference because obviously we had one of the three games. There was, yeah. But other results seemed always to be the way then that other results went against us and that was it. Just kind of briefly, Craig, on what the experience is like as a player being at a tournament. It's very different, isn't it? You're away a long time. I guess there's more to amuse themselves now than they did.

30:13Michael Grant: Yeah, probably. We went to Malta if I remember correctly. I think we did for a pre camp, you know, and then we flew into, was it Rapallo or somewhere? And I mean that trip went sort of really well, I mean you're so excited to be, you know on the bit for the squad in the first place, you know, I was obviously I didn't play in the first match

30:47Mark Palmer: Put a bit distance between yourself and Costa Rica Of course.

30:52Michael Grant: What would you do?

30:58Mark Palmer: Some record action when you think about it. You play one World Cup game and we won. There you go. 100 % I mean, are you excited about the Brazil game to finish with?

31:10Craig Levein: I've borrowed you half. I've got a trepidation around that because you always feel the worst potentially now and back in. So much of it will be how you feel going into that with the term about what's gone before. I mean, it could be a free hit if such a thing exists at a World Cup but particularly with Ancelotti there they've seen that they underperformed the last couple of tournaments but that's a serious operator who will get the best out of that squad isn't it so you've got to expect a Brazil kind of at the peak of their powers I would suggest

31:37Mark Palmer: You wouldn't really fancy Vinicius Junior running at you in the heat of Miami would you? As a defender? Not now Not for that injury you're carrying but it is great I mean we always get them there is something magical there's no doubt it's magical

31:54Michael Grant: it is the greatest show on earth there's no doubt about it the Super Bowl and you know you can go to the Grand National or whatever Football World Cup for me is the best tournament

32:07Craig Levein: and if you're a member of that of Scotland if you're anywhere near it you think in terms of career highlights Brazil win Miami at a World Cup it literally doesn't get any better does it

32:15Michael Grant: You know, another thing is that there's not many tournaments that have so many, you know, countries involved in the beginning, you know what I mean, before the qualifiers and all that. So everybody's involved, yeah, all over the planet.

32:29Mark Palmer: I mean, do you think that we've missed out a lot as an ASA? You talked earlier about the kind of finances that we've lost and how that kind of cascades down through the grassroots game. I mean, there must be tens of millions of pounds we've missed.

32:45Michael Grant: there'd be much much more than you I would have thought

32:47Mark Palmer: there's a consequence of that in terms of coaching facilities it becomes a cycle of decline almost

32:55Michael Grant: and if you look back through in recent history I know we've got some really good young players just now but for a while we had a real dearth of any quality in the kind of 16 to 20 Kieran Tierney maybe was one that came through but around about that time there wasn't like it wasn't like we were producing loads of young players but now we're doing better we're doing better yeah I mean I'm going into this tournament with extremely hopeful like Steve knows what he's doing he's been over the course now two or three times he knows those players like the back of his hand and I just think that we're probably peaking because after this tournament you're getting drop offs of some of them you've got Andy and Jermagand and you know like this so this is their last one now for me that's a huge motivation for them you know for them and don't get me wrong everybody thinks about the team but you want to be a player who's in the first team to qualify out of the group stages and they're all 30-ish still in good nick and this is the one, I think, this is the one.

34:26Mark Palmer: I think this is our 14th tournament, our 12 attempts

34:29Michael Grant: Have we had a better group of players? Yeah, well

34:32Mark Palmer: you could argue the 70s teams were

34:34Michael Grant: I'm not going back that far I'm going back to 1990 when we qualified so I'm saying since then have we had a team good enough to get out of the group stage I don't think we have Well I've kind of format Well yeah that's true because this definitely makes things a little bit easier

34:54Mark Palmer: And just to kind of wrap up in terms of the tournament Mark there's been an awful lot of stories about ticket prices and transport prices and accommodation prices and that just to feel that fans are getting up to you you know we hope that that's not the kind of narrative that dominates this whole tournament hopefully it won't be it already is but I mean once the team's playing you hope that it's not just a case of fans going this has been horrible

35:27Craig Levein: as ever there's planes, trains, automobiles school buses go into games there's a fleet of them and it's outrageous America will big the whole thing up, you know? That bit, I think they always put on a great event, a great show. You do want it in a sort of macro sense for that too, not just for Scotland, you know, everything that's going on politically in that country around, you know, folk getting into the country. There's bound to be hiccups along the way. You know, I think that's going to be almost unavoidable, never mind Iran or whoever being there. So, but, you know, you hope that those tens of thousands of folk that are spending life savings and all and emptying the accounts to go from Scotland and have the tip of their lifetime.

36:10Craig Levein: Because they deserve it, though. They've been waiting 30 years.

36:13Michael Grant: Yeah, and the only way that's going to happen is when you get out of the group.

36:18Mark Palmer: Yeah. And who would you think are our main threats in terms of other teams that might win it as well as us? If I keep a straight face, but I mean, what are you thinking to win it?

36:35Michael Grant: England could win it.

36:37Craig Levein: Now you've really bought a day there on everything, haven't you? England could win it.

36:41Michael Grant: Because if you look at what they've got, there are some really, really strong teams out there. Brazil, you know, we even just said Morocco and stuff as well, who are in the top ten.

36:54Mark Palmer: France and Spain will be... They're about...

36:57Michael Grant: It's going to be the same contenders, you know? Yeah. the last four will be France Brazil Spain maybe I don't know Argentina just now Messi's nearly 80 now and he will be playing Devlin Devlin will get his jersey

37:22Mark Palmer: it's going to be great isn't it it's going to be great I think we're all looking forward to it it's fantastic you're going to be watching at home but you'll stay up to the middle of the night

37:30Michael Grant: I'll be watching everything.

37:31Mark Palmer: Yeah, yeah. And that's, I mean, I know it's not great for the viewers starting to set up in the middle of the night, but it is what makes a world culture, isn't it? You know, it's different. It's not suited just for Europe. It's the audience, you know.

37:46Michael Grant: And it'll be a massive tournament. I mean, it's... I have to say, the world needs this just now. You know, I mean, it's a bit of a mess, so it'd be good to get a really good tournament. Yeah, yeah.

38:00Mark Palmer: Mark, thanks very much. Craig, thank you very much. My pleasure, Michael. You will be able to read our coverage in the Times on a daily basis, at least until Scotland are out, some point in the middle of July, perhaps, if they do a run. Craig, thanks very much. It's been really interesting. And good luck to Scotland. Follow us on thetimes.co.uk and on X and Instagram and other social media accounts. And let's hope that Scotland do the company proud.

38:29Craig Levein: that was a special episode looking at scotland's chances going into this summer's 2026 world cup we'll be back with england previews our regular show keeping an eye on summer transfers and reaction to arsenal's champions league final on monday we hope to see you then

38:52Craig Levein: business is booming but you know what really helped zero the accounting platform for small businesses i used to think spreadsheets were just part of it but real-time cash flow wow invoices that chase themselves even better books that automate that's a big one and i can keep track from my phone while i get the job done no spreadsheet in sight what a life do right by yourself and your business and search xero for your free trial Conditions apply. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over$900 on average.

39:33Craig Levein: Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99 % of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. National average 12-month savings by$946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.