WORLD CUP DAY 11: Cape Verde joy and Rashford's renaissance

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0:52Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. It's another World Cup daily show bringing you the latest news and reaction from the 2026 tournament. This is Day 11. I'm Tom Clarke and we are all Cape Verde. Later on we'll be hearing from Ian Whittle who watched Spain win and we'll catch up with Matt Lawton for the latest from the England camp. But now it's one in the morning and I'm joined by Cape Verde superfan Gregor Robertson. Gregor, I think some listeners probably know you as the Mr Sensible of the podcast, the measured former professional but when we were discussing when to record this show earlier listen i'm the one staying up through the night not you but i said look we can do it after belgium iran and listeners this man believed this man believed in cape verde he said i'm staying up to watch my boys let's do it after that and we were rewarded with being rewarded the game of the tournament

1:46Gregor Robertson: isn't it that 2-2 draw with uruguay i think so i looked at whether it's the game of the tournament it's certainly close so far but this is the story of the tournament there's no question about that this wasn't a one off you watch this after the draw against Spain which was remarkable in itself you watch the team play and they've got so much quality all the things about their heart and their fight and their remarkable defending on the other side they've got some really good players really really talented players Pina the midfielder is a great player so much energy, so much drive and like this kind of uncanny knack for being able to win the ball back in any sort of situation and he scored a beauty and when you got to the final throws of this game they were the team that were pushing for the winner, I mean there was a few hairy moments at the other end which I'm sure we'll come to but absolutely magnificent, magnificent game and as I say the story of the World Cup so far yeah and that's the thing isn't it you're watching it going oh my god this is not like this is not a fluke this is not you know some underdog story they're really good like they could have won this game you know at the end there the counter attack I was in the living room trying not to wake the rest of the flat up and jumping up and down going shoot pass the ball I mean Benton Coeur made an amazing tackle right at the end but I mean they could have won this game and the goals they scored were terrific yeah and like you know you look into their players stories a little bit.

3:20Gregor Robertson: Of course they're not players who are playing in elite leagues but they're playing for teams like top division teams in smaller countries. I'll go through some of them but left back Lopez Cabral plays in Turkey for Trasbon right back who was unbelievable plays for Columbus Crew in MLS. Pina plays for Krasnodar in Russia. Ryan Mendes plays for a team in Turkey, Igdir. He's mid-30s now but he's played for Lille, Le Havre, he spent a season alone with Nottingham Forest in the Championship Jovan Cabral he's played for he's played in Portugal now, he's played for Sporting Lazio, Olympiacos Vareja who came on and scored the second plays for Maccabi Tel Aviv these are decent clubs and good players and it also fascinates me to sort of see you know when they're matching players at the World Cup like matching nations like Spain and Uruguay they'll all have fascinating stories themselves each one of those players as individuals about why they've not quite been at that level their whole careers and part of this is undoubtedly the story of Cape Verde's rise and when they kind of, a few years ago they cast out to try and tap into the diaspora and get some new players on board and clearly it's a remarkable feat of management too by Babista to gather all these players from far and wide and create a real team sort of ethos and spirit and you can see with the commitment and the passion that they play with that they've all totally bought into this and seen it as an opportunity of a lifetime and they're absolutely desperate to grasp it.

5:09Yeah, I've got a couple of remarkable stats here that I've just been sent. Optor always sends some stats after the game, one of which this one Cape Verde have conceded only five fouls in the World Cup so far I genuinely to the point where you were talking there and I've just had to check it but they have only conceded five fouls in two games the fewest across opening two matches of any team in a single tournament on record since 1966

5:34Gregor Robertson: I feel like I saw this as well after the Spain game it might have only been one in the Spain game it was only one four tonight and one against Spain but the fewest I mean also the way they play in that respect is remarkable they're also the first debutant country to go undefeated in their first two World Cup games since Senegal in 2002 I mean it's also the nature of the teams they're playing as you've already mentioned you know they've got a genuine shot of progress now they've got a final game against Saudi Arabia with a chance of going through they could get five points it's an unbelievable story yeah it's extraordinary extraordinary and like we've gone through some of the individual stories Vazinha's been discussed a lot and you know you had a very hairy moment which we were messaging about oh please God please God when there was the Varchek for offside because he kind of panned the ball and it was a bit of a fluff, a fumble but thankfully you know his remarkable story didn't come to a bit of a tragic end and Pico Lopez who you know is another one who's made huge headlines what a performance again alongside Borges the two of them are just have been outstanding like in the way they read the game in the way they throw their bodies on the line for everything makes remarkable blocks in fairness Moreira did as well the right back right at the end like and he was up and celebrating you know I don't like that but I'm totally I was celebrating that myself that was a that was fully deserved yeah everywhere you look there's been there's just so much it does them a disservice to say to talk about just commitment and passion and all that because while that is true and it's striking there's so much more than that because when they win the ball back they go forward and they're brave and they play with purpose and they commit men forward and great counter-attacking team so it's funny because both games have been obviously large periods understandably where they've been camped around the edge of their own box and they've defended backs to the wall kind of stuff but there's also been vast swathes of both games where the game's been so stretched and open.

7:43Gregor Robertson: Again, against Spain and Uruguay. And that's because of their bravery and their threat and the danger they pose going forward when they win the ball back. So, yeah, brilliant. Absolutely brilliant, brilliant night of football. Yeah, you're right picking out Pico Lopez in the defence. I just love the way they were always, if there's a ball there to be won, they're always out to try and pinch it. Always on the front foot, trying to pinch the second and third ball all the way throughout the team. There's none of this like camped in banks of four and five and things. It's like, let it pass. No, if it's there, we're going to try and win it.

8:16We're going to try and score. I mean, Helio Varela's goal, like it's very easy to like put that down to like a Uruguay mistake, but to take that touch and then shoot in basically like one motion from that distance and then his celebration at the end. And I think as well, I heard on commentary, it's his first international goal. Imagine that being your first international goal.

8:37Gregor Robertson: I think they said it was basically his first touches as well. He came on in the 50th minute and scored a few minutes after that. So extraordinary, yeah. And you're right, it was a great finish because to do that in kind of one movement, the interception, the ball, I think just about bounces and he hits it on the volley first time before the defender, Oliveira, recovered. Great, great finish. And great scenes. Same with the first goal. that was like you know there were great scenes against Spain because they didn't concede a goal but to score a goal is something different that's our detonation of joy and you saw it in this in the stadium you heard the sounds and you know the whole bench running onto the pitch pour on spilling onto the pitch to celebrate um and then they had it all over again and yeah absolutely brilliant stuff and the character as well that they showed because I think you know you and I were messaging and I was messaging Will Rogan who's our sub-editor who's working in New York to cover the World Cup and you know the three of us are all messaging and like when Uruguay go 2-1 up we're a bit like ah oh poor lads never mind but like that second half they were the better team by a mile by an absolute mile absolutely fantastic Kate Verde I'm buying my shirt I'm fully bought in now they need to go and win this final game against Saudi Arabia I wanted to bring in Iran now Gregor they got a brilliant point against Belgium some brilliant defending a bit more backs to the wall in this one but again you know playing the right way a lot of times still ferocious, still pressing.

10:02An amazing performance from their goalkeeper, Ali Reza Berendvand, getting absolutely clobbered in the opening minutes by Romelu Lukaku and then making some astonishing saves in this match. Belgium had 23 shots in this match, their most without scoring in a World Cup game since 1994 against Saudi Arabia when they had 28.

10:27Let's just talk about Iran first. I was going to make a bigger point, but what did you make of this game? I mean Belgium have been incredibly poor in the two games that I've seen. You know this very much I don't know what the chapter is after the end of an era but they're in it. They're definitely in it with this team. But Iran were brilliant weren't they? With everything they've had going on off the pitch preparation blighted by you know politics off the pitch what a brilliant performance and what a brilliant story to have two points from there in two games.

10:55Gregor Robertson: Well that's it. The context is so important here. everything that they've been through and the sort of way they've been treated you know coming to America for this tournament has been shocking really and you know I think you could see some sort of defiance in it and I think it looked like Toremi was trying to when he scored that goal that was offside he was trying to do some kind of celebration that was going to make a point and then players were like no no no no there's a lot of kind of resentment built up in there and you could understand it as well and yeah they had some good chances going forward Toremi forced Courtois into two fantastic saves and then they obviously had that that goal that was offside but really really crafty kind of free kick routine that was very narrowly offside that was a shame and yeah the goalkeeper was brilliant I mean some of the the save in particular from Max de Kuyper Brighton's fullback who had a funny game he was kind of he kept making these runs inside Trossard who was a left winger and just making a beeline for the box it was clearly a ploy and he got so many promising positions and openings and he had two great chances in the second half and that one that fell to him after De Bruyne had plucked the ball out of the sky beautifully managed to keep it in cut it back little kind of deflection and it's just there there's a goal gaping and like you've got to give credit to the goalkeeper but the Kuiper has to score that even on his right foot and that was that that was the moment where you thought my god I ran I'm gonna hold on here and then obviously the whole game pivoted again on the on the sending off of Nathan and Goy and and that was a kind of a moment you'd be embarrassed with in the school playground you know when you kind of clip the ball accidentally with one foot as you try and play it with the other and then just about it was just not quite a fresh air shot but he clipped it like barely and and to remi was through and then he held him back that was just sort of an instinctive move and yeah then they had an opportunity to try and take and they didn't really take it in fairness they like i think they were better suited to more comfortable to defend them for their lives and hold them like being camped around their own box than they were when they had the man advantage and they saw an opportunity to try and win it because it was Belgium we were still coming forward towards the end so yeah really like great story for Iran and you saw the manager's quotes I saw Pete Rutzler reporting about this saying that he's the quotes were kind of saying this will be remembered for like generations when you think about as again how important the context is as a you know country at war and from Belgium's point of view, they need to do so much more.

13:44Gregor Robertson: It still is a confusing team. You're right, they're in a funny situation. Kevin De Bruyne is turning 35 soon. Lukaku has barely played any football. I think it was something like 45 minutes or 64 minutes or something like that all season before he came into the World Cup. Really hardly any football. De Bruyne missed about four months with a hamstring injury. They're two big players. Lukaku's goals per minute ratio for this country is ridiculous. like unrivaled but they still have talent they still have some really good players they still have you know Thielemann's in the midfield and you know De Kuyper's a good player so they've got some talent but it's just not it's not been happening for them it's all been really laboured and slow and they've not had not had any real purpose to their play nowhere near enough so been disappointed from Belgium so far Yeah the bigger question I wanted to ask before we talked about the game in specifics is you know I was watching Curacao get a brilliant point against Ecuador last night.

14:43That wasn't on yesterday's show because it was such a late game. But, you know, they were brilliant in that game. It finished 0-0 and I think probably people waking up would be like, oh, you know, battling point for Curacao. But it was much the same. You know, they could have won it. You know, Eloy Roam's 15 saves, the most in a single match in a World Cup on record since 1966, joint with Tim Howard against Belgium in 2014. But that match went to extra time. I mean, this is one of the great things about this World Cup, because it's some of these smaller nations, particularly some of these debutante sides, really competing and meaning that we go into these final games with so much on the line with the third place and things like that.

15:21I mean, dare I say it, FIFA might have got this format right, but the teams themselves are the ones. He's not happy with that. He's not happy with that. Let's focus on the teams then.

15:31Gregor Robertson: Yeah, no, no. I think there's, you know, we're in probably and both things can be a true territory. We're entering it because like, while you're right, opportunity for more of these smaller nations to be playing in the World Cup has been a success so far, no doubt they've all put a really good account of themselves in front of the whole world and there's been some brilliant, brilliant stories from that but there's still something, I think, sort of inherently wrong with the fact that you're playing all these games and only losing eight teams and there's also sort of something this is probably with my Scotland hat on about the fact that we're going into the last round of games and some teams will know how many goals they might need to progress whereas other teams had played like days earlier and didn't have that privilege so it's complex it's pretty complicated and there have been some as I say I'll say it again there have been some great stories to emerge from this new format you know patients who wouldn't be here otherwise but it's still I think we're still going to see probably in the next round of fixtures that it's complicated and this number of teams is not, it doesn't fit it doesn't fit into I saw someone saying today that you might as well make it 64 I think Martin Samuel's written about this in fairness for a long long time and yes your eyes widen and I agree but to make it a kind of to make the format fairer and still just make it so that two teams go through from a group there's actually probably more logic to that but I'm sure we'll talk about that more as the week's gone yeah it sounds like you're asking for a kind of champions league style final night of I'm absolutely not everyone plays I mean do you know what I think my wife Amy would be fully on board with that given my mission to watch all the games if we got a big raft of them out away all on one night I think that might help help my mental state let's get back to the action then earlier in the night almost completely bypassed it now because Lamin-Yamel was in action got his world as Spain got back on track with a 4-0 win against Saudi Arabia.

17:38Ian Whittle was there for us, reporting for the Times, and sent this note on what he saw. Hello from Dallas, where Spain have just beaten Saudi Arabia 4-0 this afternoon. And really, it was the exact polar opposite of that goalless draw with Cape Verde, which was a great game for the neutrals, but which seemed to send Spain and the Spanish media into a terminal decline over the weekend. Everything that went wrong then went right for Luis de la Fuente today. not least of all, the first start at a World Cup for Luminiumal. A couple of incredible attacks in the opening 10 minutes. Could have laid on a couple of goals.

18:12Did score the opening goal after 10 minutes. And from there, really, it was just a question of how many Spain would win by. But it ticked every box, really, for De La Fuente. Pedri and Olmo in midfield were great. Rodri also, he described Rodri afterwards as spectacular. Said he's the best player in the world. And crucially, a lot of injury questions are getting answered now. Now, Nico Williams also came off the bench and looked very good. Even Mikel Oyasebal, who was ridiculed by his home media after that first game against Cape Verde, because he went the first 30 minutes without touching the ball, the first time that's ever happened since he started keeping track of that record in 1966.

18:49He was brilliant today, scored two, hit the crossbar, could have had a hat-trick, would have deserved it. And really, it was a complete and utter 180 from that Cape Verde disaster. The media afterwards were full of praise for De La Fuente and every decision he made. So a slight overreaction, possibly an overcompensation from that first game. But certainly Spain are worthy of our attention again. And who knows? They've got a long way to go in this tournament. But I made a point in a piece I've written for the newspaper back in the day. We looked at Pele in 1958, Kylian Mbappé in 2018, who sort of announced themselves on this stage and went on to win the World Cup.

19:26It's not a bad, outrageous bet to think maybe Luminiumal could join them before this tournament's over. Gregor, your thoughts on this game then? Important for Spain to get back on track. I don't think anyone particularly doubting that they would against Saudi Arabia. A very impressive first-half display. So your thoughts on this game, but also maybe thoughts on some of the bigger teams. You know, we've had a lot of love for the starts made by France and England, Argentina. Then there's Germany that we haven't really mentioned, but they've got six points from two games. Spain are back on track now as well.

19:54what are your thoughts on those, that kind of category of team? Well first of all

19:58Gregor Robertson: this game it was a reminder of why Spain are the favourites and how important their wingers are in particular Luminiumal and it was just mesmerising at the start the focus and the energy that he draws to any opposition and in the stadium everyone was just there to see him it seemed and he's got this I've seen it many many times but I just was watching the start of this game think the dummy he has it's like he has this you know a lot of the best players are the like the real creme de la creme have their own sort of calling card and he has this dummy where he just run he almost runs a yard or two past the ball like it's such a an extravagant dummy like and the defenders just kind of crumple on the floor and it's completely sold by it if you kept it's easy to say like in practice you know in practice or in theory sorry keep your eye on the ball but you can't, you're just mesmerised by his movement around it and like, as I say he runs all the way past it the defender's gone and then he goes the other way and it's like the speeder he does it the speeder literally does it as well it's just spellbinding so yeah, you're just reminded again having him fit and obviously they wrapped him in cotton wool, took him off at half time Neco Williams came on for, again, got some minutes in the bank, and I've got to say Ayarthabal as well like stepped up and he's you know I was reading his goal record for Spain has been brilliant and like he scored I think he got 12 goals and 6 assists in the 11 games coming into the tournament so there was that stat doing the rounds after the Keith Verde game where you know I think he didn't have a touch for 30 minutes or something it was ridiculous and you know this was a good riposte to that so on Spain yes we're reminded why they're one of the favourites and the team I'm going to go to immediately is the Netherlands because I think we finished our last preview show and I think I said in reference to Spain actually for so many years we said how have Spain not won this how have they not been more successful over the years and we said the same thing about the Dutch team and you just need something to click and I don't know whether it has but they were great against Sweden they really were and they looked there was so much pace and purpose in their play Gakpo was excellent he's often been really good for the Netherlands midfield engine room with De Jong and Gravenberg great midfield some of the best defenders in the world at the back and Brobe is a real surprise as well I kind of forgot, I'll be brutally honest I kind of forgot he had a great season with Sunderland you know I don't think it was a bit of a surprise that he was selected but he's he's a real physical presence he's difficult it doesn't make it easy for any defenders so potentially with him leading the line as a bit of a kind of breakout then that's another positive for the Dutch so yeah really impressed by them Yeah hugely exciting night but reminder perhaps in Gregor Robson's analysis there and in Tom Allnuch yesterday there is an awful long way to go in this tournament some teams have still got to play a second game we're going to see a lot more aren't we there's lots of you know people keep saying to me oh you've watched every game you know who's the favourites who's going to win and I'm like no idea there's so many more games to come you know there's so much more to come isn't there and and the opposition like we have to remind ourselves you know about who they're playing against I mean in fairness I was thinking that Spain's thrashing Saudi but Saudi are ranked 61st in the world by FIFA and Cape Verde are 67th like there's weren't much in that so but there are other examples of you know you don't want to take too many hot takes because someone's thrashed Tunisia for example it's like yeah you're right it's very early very very very very early there's an extra round an extra knockout round so it's double early um and I'm sure there'll be you know there's plenty of teams still to grow into this competition yeah plenty more to come from this World Cup and plenty more to come from this podcast as well, but we'll leave it there for part one.

24:10Gregor Robinson will let you get to bed. I'm off to watch New Zealand v Egypt, but stick with us in part two. You've got Matt Lawson with the latest from the England camp. We'll be back after this quick break.

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26:46Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clark and I'm delighted to say that I'm joined for part two by the Times Chief Sports Correspondent Matt Lawton. matt you've been with the england camp for the whole tournament um just prepping for game two against ghana now we heard from you from the ground at that win against croatia but since then just give us a summary of what the mood in the camp's been like we heard from johnny after the game as well but you know we've had thomas tuchel taking shots at fifa over their cameraman policy we've had him throwing baseballs it's it's been eventful hasn't it yeah they seem like they've had quite a nice time.

27:25I think, you know, it was such a big deal to get away so well with that first result to get the three points against what we assume is the hardest team of this group. And, you know, since they got back, while they're obviously training and preparing hard for Ghana, they seem to be taking quite a lot of time off as well, been enjoying themselves. They've been of the baseball um we heard from dan burn the fact that he'd been to some kind of um country music show um the baseball was an interesting one because um while we were sort of loosely told they'd had an invite um they didn't tell us it was happening um and um we were all actually most of the english football media were at a reception with the kc 2026 hosts and it was only because I knew one of the guys from the local paper that they said, oh, do you know, by the way, that Tuchel is throwing the first pitch tonight?

28:33And it was about 10 minutes before he actually did launch the thing off the mound. So a little bit disappointed by that, if I'm honest, that they didn't give us a heads up on that. I'm not entirely sure why, but fantastic pitches, obviously. um if you'll pardon the pun obviously different spelling um uh and yeah they they they seem to be you know having a nice time in kansas city it is a nice place um i've arrived in boston today uh they get here tomorrow boston is i think they'll they'll like the climate it's um forecast is for about 23 degrees on Tuesday, which will be perfect for them and perfect for them to sort of play the same way that they did in Dallas, this kind of all-action attacking football.

29:27So, yeah, I'm sure they're feeling quite positive about it all. Yeah, spirits are nice and high and quite right too. I wanted to ask about Marcus Rashford, Matt. He's a subject of a really interesting piece you've done on the Times website. You mentioned that all-out attack that so won over the England fans in that first game. He was a big part of that coming off the bench. It is a remarkable story with Marcus Rashford, isn't it? I mean, not just his England career, but his club career as well. You know, I've been doing my research and sat up late watching moments from England's past World Cups.

29:56And, you know, you forget that he stepped up, took a penalty in that shoot out against Colombia, I think with basically his first touch as a very young man. You know, he's someone that has worked really hard to get here, isn't it? And it's a nice story to see him back on the World Cup stage. Yeah, and it's, I think what, it was actually, it was Tuchel's press conference after the game in Dallas. And I was sitting there and, yeah, it's quite hard to get hold of the mic. It's not just passed by FIFA to the English journalists. It goes around the world. There was a question from a Brazilian journalist, a question from, I think, a Colombian journalist.

30:38and I finally got hold of the microphone with the last question of the night and um and I was very conscious that nobody had asked him about Marcus Rashford so I I basically said look and and and as I said in my piece he was kind of ready to go uh Thomas was ready to leave he was tired he'd done TV he'd done you know radio and finally he was doing the big sort of international press conference with sort of 300 journalists and I just said look Thomas can I just ask you about Marcus Rashford because it wasn't that long ago that he was out of favour with England, out of favour with his club at Manchester United.

31:15Given the impact he made when he came on in the 72nd minute, what a remarkable resurrection that he's had under your leadership. And he, as I said in the piece, he kind of settled back into his chair because it was something he wanted to answer and gave this very eloquent response, as he always does, very candid. it's why we like him he's box office really too cool particularly in an environment like this but no but Rashford is a great story because he did you know he had his clashes with Ten Hag it was the same with Amarin he you know he has to take some responsibility for the for the sort of disciplinary issues he had and that did contribute to him in falling out of favour at United but I think as someone who lives in Manchester and Tom you know you're from Manchester as well.

32:05I think if you're a Manchester United player in a misfiring Manchester United team, it's quite a difficult place to be. And I think what Marcus needed after really 20 years at Old Trafford from being in the academy system through to being a first team player, he needed a change of scenery. He needed a change of manager. He needed a change of city. and, as I say, just a bit of a reset and a restart. And as Tuchel called it, he called it a brave loan move to Villa because, you know, with the greatest respect to Aston Villa, let's forget results in the last couple of years, although actually United finished ahead of them this season.

32:51But, you know, anyone would think, oh, that might be perceived as a step down. But he went there and, as I said in the piece, he was encouraged. I don't think it takes a lot to work it out, but perhaps by a former colleague who might have played under Emery. And he was encouraged to go and was told, look, Unai Emery is brilliant. You'll find him a bit like Fergie, like Wenger. Go there. And it worked really well for him. He played well for Aston Villa. It was a successful move and it clearly secured that next move to Barcelona, which again you know it's it's I find it a little strange that um that given how much Flick loved him and used him uh and the impact he made for Barcelona they won the domestic double I find it a little odd that they didn't take up this option of what was it 25 26 million to buy him but they didn't and they obviously had their designs on Anthony Gordon and they've spent the money on him but the fact is given the way he's now playing in this world cup you know i think rashford is going to have a lot of offers at the end of this and that that does represent a remarkable turnaround in his career you know at the end of the day he's been around a long time now but he's still only 28 a lot of football to play and and i think what people really see out here as much in training as as on the pitch is how lean he looks, how fit he looks.

34:21And Tuchel talks about his professionalism and his commitment and his intelligence, the way that he's digesting the kind of instructions, the tactical sort of ideas that they're trying to bring to this team. And he's responding very well to that. And Tuchel couldn't have spoken more highly of him. Yeah, a fit and firing Marcus Rashford is a joy to watch on a football pitch. I really enjoyed that piece, Matt. Rashford has been a subject of some kind of discussion around fitness and things for this England game. Bakayo Saka as well reports about managing his time, training away. What's the latest?

34:56How are we looking fitness-wise across the England squad? Yeah, I haven't been in training today because I was in a taxi to the airport at seven o 'clock this morning. But yesterday, yes, he came off on Wednesday with a slight sort of tightness in his hamstring, I think. But he was back training yesterday and I was part of the piece. I did speak to his representatives and they had no concerns. So I think he's fine. Saka is the only one really that is a worry, but they know what they're doing with him. And Tuchel said after Dallas that what they're basically aiming to do with him because of this Achilles issue he's had in the latter part of the season, that they're just trying to get him into a place where he's ready to start the last group game, which is interesting because, you know, if they do, and we should never be complacent and overconfident here, but if England do get another three points against Ghana and, you know, without quickly doing the maths, that would assume they've won the group.

36:05I'm sure he will use the last game against Panama and New Jersey on Saturday to, you know, he's very keen to keep the sort of second string as sharp as the first string and I'm sure we'll see a lot of changes for that but I you know I assume that that will include Saka starting yeah but of course he's got to get these three points against Ghana first yeah in terms of getting those three points Matt final question before we let you go and what could fans expect do you think you'll see exactly the same starting lineup with players coming off the bench at the end you know the starters and the finishers and things like that and and what kind of game do you think we might see from this because it's still tough opposition Ghana will give us a good game yeah yeah it's tough opposition and and and they'll have their best player back uh in Thomas Party which obviously has its own narrative uh with this situation with the um you know the the the upcoming court case back in London.

37:04But I think we'll see a very similar team that, you know, he's got a decision to make around whether he starts with Rashford or Gordon, but I do think he sees Rashford as a real weapon when he comes on, when players are tired and that kind of explosive power that he has. So that's a big decision to make. Um, Phil Neville's done a column for us where he's making the case for him to stick with stones because of his experience, his, his quality. Um, and you know, yes, looks a bit ring rusty, uh, against, against, uh, uh, Croatia for obvious reasons. He's hardly played this season for Manchester City, but Phil's point was that, um, you use these next two games.

37:55Now you've got those three points in the bag to get him up to speed. And I agree with that. And I tend to think Tuchel will agree with that. I think Tuchel really rates John Stones. I might be wrong. Mark Gay might be in the team. But, you know, he doesn't tell the players till a couple of hours before the game. So we don't know for sure either. But other than that, he will be telling Jordan Pickford to stop hitting these worldy passes from his penalty area. I think that was driving him and his team slightly bonkers on Wednesday. But no, I think it'd be a similar team and I think he'd be looking for a very similar performance.

38:39Yeah, absolutely. Jordan Pickford, the subject of some reader comments, Matt, in recent days. So I'm sure they'll be delighted to hear you reporting on that news. as you mentioned there, that Phil Nelville column on the Times website now, you can read that and Matt's copy and the rest of the copy from the England camp. Matt Lawton, thank you very much for joining me on the Game Podcast. Thank you too for listening. That's the end of this episode of our World Cup Daily. We'll be back with another one tomorrow. We'll see you then.

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