WORLD CUP DAY 13: England thwarted, Ronaldo invigorated

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0:37Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is day 13 of our daily World Cup shows. In part two, we'll discuss Cristiano Ronaldo's double in Portugal's big win and preview Scotland's huge game with Brazil. But first, let's talk England. It was, well, I mean, let's be honest, it was pretty boring. A 0-0 draw with Garner, four points but struggles against a low block and determined defensive display. We'll try and make sense of all of it and ask what next for Thomas Tuchel's side. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm joined today by senior sports writer and Sunday Tice columnist Alison Rudd and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson.

1:15But first, let's hear from one of the Times team who was in Boston. Our chief sports correspondent Matt Lawton sent me this note full time. Frustrating outcome for Thomas Tuchel. we know Carlos Quiroz is a naturally defensive coach and Ghana clearly set out there to defend and secure another point that takes them to four points and puts them in a very strong position to progress to the knockout stages of this competition but England threw everything at that created very few chances given how defensive Ghana were they had so much of the ball I think the last I heard it was north of 70 % and yet they just couldn't make that breakthrough O 'Reilly hit the woodwork.

1:56But I think we're going to be talking more about Jed Spence snubbing Thomas Partey before the game. There seemed to be some kind of altercation between Jude Bellingham and the Ghana bench at half-time. And overall, I think Tuchel will reflect with frustration, as I say, because he now has to pick a stronger team for the final game on Saturday of this group against Panama. because I think really he wanted to secure the six points tonight, probably top the group, depending on what happens in the game later on, but top the group and then actually take this opportunity to rest players, given that once they get to the knockout stages, assuming they do, England are going to be playing every four days because of the fact that they didn't start their tournament campaign until June the 17th.

2:46They've got the most condensed journey through this tournament of any team other than Croatia. And that is not what Tuchel had in mind when he was really pushing his players to come out and perform in this game, much as they did the second half against Croatia. Unfortunately, Ghana had other ideas. it's a draw, it's a goalless draw and they now have to make sure they finish the job against Panama in New Jersey. Guys, Matt, they're summing it up pretty nicely. Alison, lots to unpick from this game. What did you make of it overall? A frustrating night for England. Well, Matt sounded quite exasperated, didn't he?

3:31And I think a lot of England fans would be, as would neutrals tuning in to see what the next phase two of the Thomas Tuchel experiment was going to be. It was almost the inverse of what happened with Croatia in that there was lots of texture to that first half against Croatia and Tuchel made some intelligent substitutes and England grew in stature and confidence and were entertaining. in this game there was it was as if there was nothing to hold on to from the first half so you it was harder it was much more difficult for the substitutes to know what to do um so i think the lesson learned from it was that patience is not always a virtue it might it might have been a good idea to create some chaos of England's own um to to you know the mantra was after that first game that you know lose on lose or win on your own terms and it felt like um England allowed Ghana to set the agenda and the philosophy of the game and that if they were patient enough the game would eventually open up and then the the the the the superior players would would shine now that that almost happened um England did get you know did get some um chances towards the end as the game did expand but you know there were plenty of minutes before then when England could have just created chaos in the area um got some crosses in uh just mix things up a little bit so i i i found what i find difficult is to see what step two of the tuchel master plan is from this game although maybe he's just a hostage to england history because this is this is something england does do they do draw nil nil the second game of a world cup campaign so maybe he's fighting against forces much bigger than him.

5:46But I felt overall it was disappointing. Full credit to Garner, but I don't really see why a team boasting the talent that England has and the depth of talent that England has, why you let Garner set the agenda so strongly. Yeah, as you mentioned those substitutes, I wanted to bring in Johnny Northcroft's intro to his match report that we've just sent to the presses in the Times offices. Johnny writes, on when the substitutes or finishers, as Thomas Tuchel likes to call them, and on when England's torture, that excruciating experience when you dominate but cannot terminate. They had the possession stats of World Cup contenders and, until the very final stages, the XG of a fourth-place group team.

6:28Welcome to a hell that Thomas Tuchel, for all his smarts, has struggled to solve as England boss, the low block. The nuggety, committed, determined, organised underdog who parks themselves in front of goal and challenges you to find the wit and patience to get through. beautifully summed up there by Johnny who was alongside Matt in the ground Gregor, welcome to your favourite part of any international tournament Game 2 after England and everyone's lost the plot after a bore draw this is what you've, never mind Scotland-Haiti this is the moment you've been waiting for isn't it?

7:00Gregor Robertson: No Tom, I don't know what you've been waiting for although it is quite amusing to see the world fall apart after a 0-0 Listeners, he's been laughing the whole way through this opening five minutes Honestly, we'll have to remember this when we come to Brazil tomorrow. No, please don't. Yeah, look, I think Johnny makes a serious point in his intro there. These games are really hard. They are really tough, and Ghana were great. Ghana had a game plan, and they stuck to it. And actually, they started to become a bit more adventurous as the game went on, and they were more dangerous on the break, and their substitutes made a difference.

7:37Gregor Robertson: So I think you have to give Ghana credit. it. From an England point of view, they just struggled desperately for a moment of inspiration or a creative spark from anywhere. There were moments in the first half where I was looking and seeing Bellingham in little pockets of space and no one was really brave enough to punch the ball into his feet. So that was like an avenue close. And then you would give it out to Madueke and he wouldn't beat him down the line. I think I looked and it was the 37th minute before he actually went past him on the outside. Both Gannis fullbacks, by the way, were outstanding.

8:14Gregor Robertson: Anthony Gordon had almost no impact on the game at all. Elliot Anderson didn't really have any. He was kind of stuck in between because Rice was trying to push higher up alongside Bellingham and he, I don't know, was trying to get the ball off the centre-halves and create, but it was just like it was more congested in front of him. It was really, it's just a stodgy, difficult, difficult night and not until the last 15 minutes and I think a few of the subs made a difference. Saka made a difference. Morgan Rodgers tried to do things and then I don't know, there were even I have to like, I'm not trying to be wise after the event because I actually love Jed Spence and I think actually when we named our England teams maybe six months ago this apart from Saka was the team I named I put Spence at left back and I think he's great and I think part of the logic of playing him is that the further you go the more important his speed and his defensive nous is paced against some of the best wingers, against a Yamal, against a Dembele or whatever will be vital so I see that but after five minutes he's thought this is a game for Nico Riley because he's someone who can come into those tight spaces and look comfortable.

9:32Gregor Robertson: Spence isn't that. Spence wants open spaces. And even Nicarrelli can make a late run into the box and score a goal and he almost did. So that was one call I think probably that Thomas Tuchel got wrong. As I say, I see the logic in it but when you look at Ghana's possession stats from the first game against Panama you knew how they were going to approach this. If you look at Carlos Cuero's position stats as an international manager I think they said on commentary it's 35 % possession overall, overall the nations he's managed you knew what your challenge was going to be here so I think this was a game for Nico Reilly who's comfortable stepping in to be that extra man in midfield or whatever so yeah I mean difficult night and it isn't a night to lose your heads over because all is not lost.

10:27Listen, what Carlos Kairos does is do defensive brilliance well, Gregor. What English fans do is lose their heads over after a second draw, nil-nil draw in the group stage. If we were three Garnayans discussing this match, we would be quite livid that VAR did not seem to look at what looked like a pretty clear, not reasonably clear penalty shout against Konza. What I don't understand is was that a mistake in the VAR because they sort of didn't understand when the flag went up or when there was an infringement because the foul was before any infringement. It definitely deserved to be looked at.

11:11Player was taken out. The ball was not touched by Konza. So therefore, at the very least, you expect a VAR review and for the referee to look at that again. I don't understand. And also we would be thinking, England got a bit lucky when Jordan Pickford came out of his area. That was one of those decisions on a knife edge that could quite easily have gone against Pickford and he might have been sent off. I mean, this isn't a game of just one storyline, which is that Ghana were defensive and that was all they did. There were some jittery moments for England and we could quite easily be talking about a 1-0 England defeat if that penalty had been reviewed.

11:55Yeah, there's certainly other incidents in the tournament when I think back, having watched as many games as I have, you know, the Argentina-Austria one as well, players kind of scissoring in from the side with their legs and chopping down on the ball like that. It seemed quite similar to that. In terms of back with England, I've just got a couple of stats here. 78.8 % possession. That was England's possession figure in this game, which was the most on record since 1966 by any side in a World Cup match without managing to score, which basically sums it all up. We could just wrap up the podcast there, couldn't we?

12:26But England v Ghana is also the first match of this World Cup not to have a single shot in the first half. And I've got to say, having had the privilege, and I mean privilege, of having watched every single game so far, that was the worst one. That was the worst one. I've got to say, Gregor, you'll be delighted to hear that it pips Scotland-Haiti in terms of excitement levels. But yeah, it was definitely the worst one. Matt mentioned an interesting point, Alison, about the Panama game and how that takes on a different meaning now because they will undoubtedly play probably in a similar fashion to Ghana.

12:57And as Matt said in his note there, Thomas Tuchel now has to approach it in a slightly different way. Six points means you can rotate the entire team. You can change everything about it. You can relax. Four points, you can't do quite exactly the same. You know, England are still in a very strong position. Does that change things going forward as well? Because England are in this part of the draw where their schedule gets very condensed now. Do you think that's a worry for England at all? Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure there's so much attention to detail in the planning of this. They were very aware of how condensed their tournament was going to be.

13:31And the best way to manage that was going to be on rotation. And if that is limited going into the final game, when your next game following that, your first knockout game is quite quick, then that that that will have an impact I think I don't think it forms the basis for any excuses in advance though because of the depth of squad that England have it's phenomenal and also it the other thing to say is that yes Panama might play similarly but they won't do it as adroitly if that's the road they go down and also once you get into the knockouts it's pretty unlikely to be quite that cagey. Ghana were very, very happy to get the point.

14:21That's all they probably thought they needed. I mean, going into the game, this is a huge result for them. It's not going to feel like that from the knockout stages onwards. They're going to, the whole agenda will change. So it's not like England are going to look back on this and think, oh, did we learn the lessons? You're not going to really need the lessons from this, except to say that it just seems pretty odd that this inner flamboyance and faith in entertainment seem to go out the window pretty darn quickly when faced with a team that can defend well. That's odd. there will be other teams that aren't that aren't as keen to have so little of the ball as Garner but who will defend really well and you have to think what do we do in those instances create some chaos, we have players who can cross the ball, we have players who can finish give them a chance just create something I don't even know that I know the reason why you would say let's not create chaos because sometimes that is the very, we see it all the time in the Premier League and that's where most of the players are based.

15:38If you create chaos, things will happen. Don't just stand back and pass and pass and pass and wait. Don't do that. Yeah. Gregor, on that theme and thinking ahead to future opposition that England might face, I was watching this game and, you know, as Johnny mentioned and as Alison has discussed, the finishers, they all came on. Rodgers came on, Saka came on, as you mentioned, and I agree with you, look brighter on that right wing. England will definitely be better with him on. Rashford came on. But Ivan Toney and Olly Watkins didn't come on. And I found that quite interesting in relation to what Alison's saying about potential chaos.

16:09Ivan Toney outlined by Thomas Tuchel as one of these three wild cards in the squad. If there were ever a moment for a wild card, surely it was the last 10 minutes of this game, wasn't it? Put Ivan Toney next to Harry Kane and maybe change the game plan from pass, pass, pass to stick it in the mixer. What do you think about the idea that both those strikers didn't feature in a game where England were looking for a goal?

16:28Gregor Robertson: I have expected to see a big Dan Byrne pop up as well and really stick it in the mixer I don't think I think he still thought that because they were good at defending the box in fairness on the few occasions where there was one in the first half where Anthony Gordon kind of

16:51Gregor Robertson: a rarity bamboozled the right back and cut inside on his right foot and played as a good in-swinging cross with his right foot. And Thomas Partey was in between both centre-halves to head it clear. It would have found its way through to Bellingham. So they are very, very good at defending the box and defending crosses into the box. So I think maybe he looked at it and thought that's not the way through here. I see what Alison's saying about that as a way of creating some chaos, but so is forming combinations out wide and getting to the byline, like that move that happened in the first half with Madueke and Rhys James making the sort of under lap run and he played him inside and he got to the byline and cut it back that was like inches away from the defender had to stretch out a leg to stop that fall into could have been Bellingham, could have been Anthony Gordon those kind of combinations are what he really wants to see this team doing in the future so maybe there's an eye on the future in that sense as well yeah but in fairness none of the like the subs made limited impact Saka was the only was the main one and there are also moments in the game where you just think this is you need Saka you realise that the uplift you get from having Saka on the pitch there was a moment in the second half where I think a free kick went into the box and it was kind of half cleared fell to the feet of Madueke it was a good chance on the edge of the box to kind of get a good shot off and he put it high and wide I immediately thought that Saka is a good chance, that's a goal or he's really testing the keeper he's making the keeper make a good save those moments of elite level kind of quality have often been so decisive for England so having him back and fit, fully fit and in the team will make a big big difference but there's probably truth in saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one player to create a moment against Ghana and not even a very obdurate side like Ghana.

18:57Yeah, Bikai Osaka getting some important minutes there. We'll hope to see him against Panama. Alison, I wanted to ask you about another point that Matt Lawton made in his note from the ground about an incident before the game took place, Jed Spence appearing from footage that we've seen to refuse to shake the hand of Thomas Partey. Thomas Partey, of course, a subject of your recent column in the Sunday Times. I wanted to ask you about that column and also what you made of this incident in the game in relation to Partey's appearance at this World Cup. Yeah, thank you. My column was basically saying that if it was any other workplace than football, if we were talking about banking or teaching and a member of staff had been accused of rape and the authorities had deemed it worthy of going to trial then they would be suspended from work and I don't see why just because it's football that those players are not suspended because it makes life difficult for everybody else involved.

20:03I mean, it's not paying any attention at all to how the plaintiffs might feel, how women in general might feel. Women are often just overlooked as opinions that matter in these situations, and yet they're half the population and a large proportion of those in the stadiums and viewing it are women. It's astonishing that it's not even discussed really and i so i felt i just expressed disappointment with the um football authorities um of morocco and ghana for not suspending the players as this is not suspicion this is not a rumor this is this is these are serious allegations that have been assessed by the legal prosecutors and they've decided there is a case to answer and it will go to trial that you know that's pretty darn serious stuff you by suspending the player you're not saying oh i think we think he's guilty you're not saying that at all it's due process it's sensible it protects everybody involved and what it doesn't do is protect in this instance any England player who might feel uncomfortable sharing a pitch with a player who's facing multiple rape charges in the case of Thomas Partey and it means that that one player that we think did snub him in the pre-match handshake gets all the attention because he was the only one who did it and we may not find out the reason for that.

21:38It may be Jed Spence spoke to the women in his life and they said we we think it's it would be the right thing for you not to acknowledge him actually he may have just come to that from a contemplating the morality of the situation on his own it would have been really helpful I think if as a team they'd all decided to back him if he'd let them know that's how he felt but we we don't even know if they had that conversation it was it was left up to them as individuals to decide rather than it being an FA ruling yeah But I do feel quite strongly it's slightly, slightly bizarre that for some reason the football has a different moral code in terms of it being an employer.

22:19A really interesting column from Alison Rudd and a really interesting talking point at this World Cup. We should say, of course, that Thomas Partey does deny all charges made against him. You can find Alison's column on the Times website now. I just want to wrap up part one before we get into more of the action that's happened over the last 24 hours. Gregor, I wanted to ask as we move into part two, we're going to talk about the final round of group matches. Kit Shepard, our colleague, made an interesting point on Twitter about this game, saying that this is the 48 team format close to its worst.

22:53There is very, very little incentive for Ghana to try and risk winning this game. And they are playing exactly like it. It's a theme that you have mentioned a couple of times as we've progressed through this tournament. And maybe I have got very excited in my delirium about how brilliant it's been and all the goals and all the incidents and all the fantastic action that we've seen. What do you make of that idea that in this game, maybe a nil-nil against Ghana was all England fans could ever expect? Because that's exactly what Ghana could play for because the format dictates that they don't need to try and win.

23:23Gregor Robertson: Yeah, look, the format's clearly flawed and it's becoming more and more apparent the closer we get to the end of the group stage. And you're right, when there's little incentive to win, this is probably the result. And then it's going to be very interesting to see how the teams who have qualified already after two games treat their third game, which obviously opens up a whole new discussion about the fairness of them playing fielding a weaker team against another nation and how that affects everyone else, essentially.

24:05Gregor Robertson: It's astonishing, really. I don't know how hard it is to put together a group phase and then a knockout. It's not that difficult and they're making it really difficult. and all the things you've said in recent days are true, like there have been some great stories and there's been a lot of value added from having new nations and you know, the sort of sense of discovery you get with that and when they achieve something remarkable the joy we all share in seeing that that goes without saying so you know, I think Martin Samuel's written a column as well about this, saying that, as I said the other night, you might as well bump up to 64.

24:50Gregor Robertson: That's a whole new conversation again, which maybe we'll have later on in the tournament. But as I said just before we came on air, that even Scotland, we were going to come on to talk about, say they lose 2-0 to Brazil. We might have to wait until Sunday, until everything's wrapped up, to know whether we qualify as one of the eight third-place teams. That's all ludicrous. And because we're early in the fixture schedule, other teams know what scoreline they will need to progress. So it's a bit of a mess, really. And, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the result is a 64-team World Cup. Yeah, well, we're going to talk about Scotland in part two.

25:38A huge boost, listeners, there for me personally as a sleep-deprived man on day 13 of this World Cup to have Gregor Robertson say that I'd said something right. What a massive boost at this stage in proceedings. But let's take that huge lift into a quick break. After we come back, we'll talk about Cristiano Ronaldo. Stick with us. Thank you.

26:24So you can outthink, outpace and outperform. PwC. So you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.

26:47Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. Let's turn our attention to the other big game of yesterday. Portugal beating Uzbekistan 5-0. Two goals for Cristiano Ronaldo, 41 years old and still delivering the team and captain producing the goods after an opening draw with Congo. Tom Allnut was there for us and he sent me these thoughts. Portugal off the mark and very much Ronaldo off the mark as well. The relief was very much palpable in the stadium. I mean, as always with Ronaldo and Portugal, you know, it felt like a cathedral of Cristiano Ronaldo.

27:27But I think even more so today, you know, everyone felt that kind of pressure and noise that was very much around him in the last few days and weeks. And even for him, you know, we know that Ronaldo is a super confident character, but you could tell from his celebration, you know, he ran over to the subs on the side. He was kind of mobbed by the whole entire Portugal squad. sort of punched the air, slapped his chest. You know, it was a sort of, you know, very much out of the ordinary kind of Ronaldo celebration. And I think, you know, it's been obviously been weighing on his shoulders as well, you know, and he very much felt like he answered his critics after the match, stared down the camera and said, I'm back, just in case people forgot.

28:10He said it had been a dark week, that it felt almost like he'd retired from football, but that he is very much back. and I guess you know listen two goals at a World Cup you have to kind of hand it to him you know he's very much joined the the World Cup of Stars right Messi, Vinicius, Haaland, Mbappe, Kane all now with two goals or more and Cristiano Ronaldo added to that list so that's where he wants to be I mean quite clearly I think you know there's a there's a massive caveat here which is that Uzbekistan are the 50th best team in the world and they look like that today you know I mean they're very much in the bottom bracket of teams at this expanded World Cup and I think there's an argument to say you know in terms of quality of opposition Uzbekistan are probably a bit more like a World Cup qualifier than they are about than they are a World Cup group game and that's just the the reality of it you know it was 5-0 they were 2-0 down after 17 minutes three down at half time it just it wasn't a it wasn't a serious test for Portugal and I think those caveats very much applied to the Portugal team more broadly as well, which isn't to say that Roberto Martinez can't draw encouragement from the performance.

29:20It was definitely more fluid, definitely much less predictable than the one they put in in the draw against DR Congo last week here. I thought Jalfelix did pretty well, actually. They brought him in on the left wing and he added a bit of extra spice and craft, which is what he can bring. Bruno, I thought, was in midfield a little bit more, found better spaces. So it was a much better performance and I think that is obviously what Portugal needed. We're seeing, aren't we, in this World Cup that yes, there are some fairy tales, but also we're seeing a lot of hammerings. And I think that's what Portugal and Ronaldo very much wanted today.

29:56The group is still open. They've got Colombia now at the weekend on Saturday in the final game, and that's going to be a much more serious test. I think if Ronaldo, for example, can carry on the form and deliver again in that game, then that adds a lot more weight to his argument and more importantly for Portugal as well to top the group because don't forget that this is the group at the moment that as it stands even though it's impossible to predict who plays who but as it stands third place in Portugal group plays against England who are you know if they if they win their group so that will be a a really interesting dynamic going into the final game but a big win for Portugal two much needed goals for Ronaldo I think it's fair to say that in Houston Space City Portugal got some lift off here Gregor, Tom summing it up so nicely there as he often does really important for Ronaldo to score I think in this game and it was a good performance from him I thought I don't know about you but I think never mind the goals the most significant thing he did was his kind of wonderful acting for that free kick from Nuno Mendes brilliant stuff brilliant he puffed the cheeks out He did the stance.

31:04He did a little stutter walk-up. Amazing, amazing stuff. Really, really Oscar-worthy. What did you make of it? What did you make of this game?

31:14Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I'm not having that. I've never seen anyone take so much credit for a goal he didn't score in my life. He was running away, tapping the side of his temple. Like, as in, yeah, yeah, soldier there, guys. You know? He did, come on. Winking at people. The guy's narcissism knows no bounds. it's like yeah it's a good look it's a great story particularly you know Messi just keeps banging in goals Haaland Mbappe like it's been brilliant brilliant stuff so to you know it's great for the World Cup to see Ronaldo as he says back you know as he made a point of saying to the camera I'm back that's great to see but my goodness like you know even when he scored the first goal and you know ran over and celebrated with the bench and all his teammates.

32:03Gregor Robertson: I thought, that's nice. It's like, you know, it's a bit of a collective moment and he's sharing this. The guys have supported him and all that. It's brilliant. No, two minutes, two seconds later, you know, you've still managed to run off for like a couple of yards and do the zoo, do his big move, his celebration after celebrating with all his teammates. It's like, oh no, you still remember who you are. That's his PR people behind the bench going, Cristiano, you've not done it. You've not done your thing, your daft thing. You've got to do it. You've got to do it. I think you're being a little harsh on him there, Greg.

32:35I mean, the guy that's been under the spotlight, under the cosh. Towards the end of his career, as you say, Messi, Mbappe, Haaland, even Harry Kane before tonight, you know, producing. He was under pressure, scores two goals. And listen, I'll let him have the theatrics for the free kick. Alison, what about you? I think they're the most important goals that he scored in his entire career because he was in danger of his legacy becoming a laughingstock. Let's not forget those universal, you know, I mean, not hatred exactly, but, you know, people were really scoffing him. Mockery, universal mockery, wasn't it?

33:12Well, it was, wasn't it? And people love having a go. We love building people up and knocking them down. And this looked like it was going to be a classic case in point. So you've got Roberto Martinez just being told he's a manager with no balls and guts and who's running the team. I honestly feel if he'd had a similar match, it would have just wrecked his career. But can I just point out, there is a flaw in all of this. There were two free kick routines which involved acting from Cristiano Ronaldo. and they were both incredibly clever. One led to a goal, one did not. The one where he ran through the middle and into the box and then the ball was lofted to him.

34:03It was very clever. It was, again, based on the assumption that everyone thought he was going to take the free kick. But why waste these ingenious routines, which need the element of surprise? Why waste them against Uzbekistan? Surely you save these very, very clever, now you see me, now you don't, what's he going to do? You save them for a knockout game, for a game where you're in jeopardy. Maybe Austin McPhee's got a big raft, a big stack of ideas. He might, well, he probably has, he probably has, but he hasn't got the element of surprise anymore, has he? Potentially not. What if the next idea is that Ronaldo goes and stands next to the corner flag when they've got a free kick on the edge of the box and everyone will be going, what are you doing over there?

34:53Where's he gone? Maybe there's loads of great plans to come. I mean, listen, we're being slightly silly about Ronaldo, but A, I thought those free kick routines and the corner as well were brilliant to see. I mean, I know our pal Hamza doesn't like set pieces, but I think when they're done like that, I think it's really inventive and fun. I think that was a brilliant part of this game. But Portugal as well, we should say, and Tom Allnott made this point to me in the preview, this isn't just all about Ronaldo. This was about this team and this team who for many people were seen as favourites or one of the favourites, sorry, probably not favourites is a bit strong, but Gregor, they performed as well, didn't they?

35:26Bruno Fernandes looked at his best in this game. The midfield looked stronger. And yes, look, they were playing against Uzbekistan, but listen, they were playing against only Congo in the first game. So it was important for Martinez, Ronaldo and this team to get a convincing win, wasn't it?

35:41Gregor Robertson: Yeah, it was important for all of them. And you only need to look at their team and you know they should be amongst the favourites. That midfield duo, Neves and Vitinha, is just brilliant. It's one of the best in the tournament. It's got so much bite and creativity. They can control a game really single-handedly. And then Neto's pace. Gio Felix came in and looked lively. I don't think the Ronaldo issue is gone. It's not over. It's not finished because he scored a couple of goals and says he's back. Not for me, I think. we've seen too much evidence of what having him leading the line has done to this Portugal team and you know how many times have you seen him release them behind a back four like he was by Bruno for that second goal it just doesn't really happen he's never very rarely has that opportunity so yeah I still think it's going to be an issue for Portugal moving forward.

36:47Gregor Robertson: And I would love to be proved wrong. I really would. As much as I'm saying how much Ronaldo loves himself and it's a bit difficult to watch at times, he's an absolute legend. And if he's making big stories in the World Cup at the age of 41 alongside all these other greats, centre forwards at that as well, it's all the better for the tournament. So I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think the Ronaldo problem has disappeared overnight because of two goals against Uzbekistan. Gregor, can I just ask you, you said you found it difficult to watch the narcissism involved, but on the flip side of that, if he really was so self-absorbed and not a team player, there was actual joy on the faces of every single teammate.

37:40And he's giving them the ruffling of the hair, they're giving him the hugs, They looked like, to me, they looked like a proper team where they were pleased for him and recognised his genius. So if his team and the fans are all buying into his cult status, if his teammates and the fans don't mind, do you think it matters that people who are looking on find him a little hard to stomach sometimes? Isn't what matters how he fits into the team?

38:15Gregor Robertson: yeah no no of course it doesn't matter what I think but maybe not the best thing to say on a podcast but it's the truth what matters for me is is his impact or effect on the team like there's a clear parallels between how Argentina are setting up to get the best out of Lionel Messi and that's working that has merit it's clear he can come alive and win in the game and he of games and win them the tournament. That's not going to happen with Ronaldo. So it's about, his narcissism is holding the team back. He still thinks he can be the man who will win them the tournament. I don't think that's true anymore.

38:56Gregor Robertson: And as I say, I would, I'd love to be proved wrong. I would, but I don't think I am. Yeah. Interesting. Listeners, if you've got any views on Cristiano Ronaldo or any of the big name players and how they're delivering at this tournament, do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. We do like hearing from listeners and Alison I wanted to ask you about a message we had on Spotify from a listener Dave suggesting that maybe your boys Norway with their rowing celebration delivered so emphatically after their win against Senegal your mate Martin Odegaard with his drum all the players on the pitch all the fans in the stadium as well I mean this was pretty class wasn't it I mean it's hard it's hard to mock I think you've got you I've thought about it I thought about trying to take the mick out of it but you can't can you I mean it's just it was fantastic wasn't it no it's well it's fantastic partly because this is the theme they've settled on they they they set off their goodbye their farewell as they traveled across to America was the big photo shoot where they all lined up with long boats dressed as Vikings and they're keeping that vibe going we are the Viking team and they've got an inventive um way of celebrating that with with the rowing and the drum and so on and it reminds me of iceland and the thunderclap celebration which is still my favorite ever of all time because you'd walk down the street and little kids would be be doing it and you're not i'm not saying we're not in reikovic you know in southwest london it was it was it was contagiously gorgeous that and this is approaching something similar and I think it's I think it's quite clever actually because it it lends an identity it sort of stops Norway looking like interlopers you know they've they waited 28 years to be at a world cup and I think that status has held people back from thinking of them as serious contenders in the world cup and just embracing it in this way and this image of them you know it's a good image isn't it the viking image is a good image it's a strong image it's be afraid of us and i love the way that the the norway players are buying into it i said on the previous podcast i've not seen the famous norwegians looking quite so just so delighted to be playing football and wearing the shirt they're wearing ever before there's something very seductive about the way Norway as a people are approaching this World Cup and I stand by my prediction that they will be a team to beat They've been brilliant in the games that I've seen One of the great joys of this World Cup we've talked about some of the difficulties of it but Erling Haaland delivering has been one of the absolute joys I just absolutely love him I think as much as we've enjoyed the addition of half-time analysis and also water break analysis and Anthony Barry chatting.

41:53I think some British broadcaster needs to buy up Erling Haaland's broadcast interviews with Norwegian TV because they are absolutely class. I saw a clip during the rounds earlier of where he was asked about the fact Mbappe had scored and then he'd scored and he went, I don't care really, they'll probably win it, won't they? He's just so good. He's so good. He's such a wonderful, wonderfully weird footballer. I think he's brilliant. But Tom, am I imagining it? Doesn't he look different in a Norway shirt on the world stage to you? He does a little bit, yeah. There's kind of a slightly bit more freedom to his play as well.

42:29There's a little bit more joy. He smiles a little bit more than he does for Manchester City. And that's not a dig at Manchester City. That's nothing against them at all. There's just a slight, there's a kind of, you can feel like a camaraderie as well. And you feel the real pride as well in representing his nation as well. It's a wonderful thing to watch. And I would say, actually, Alison, the same for Martin Odegaard as well, to give equal billing to two players of top Premier League sides. I've been watching him thinking, Christ, Arsenal fans would be thinking, where the hell have you been all season, mate?

42:58Like, with pace, driving runs. And I'm thinking, could have done with a bit of that against PSG, Martin. Anyway, we'll digress on to other things. But, I mean, the listener commenting on Spotify wanted to ask us who we thought the best fans were. So I think Alison's made a good case for Norway there. Gregor, any other fans that you've spotted in the stands? we've talked about a few already any that you think are worth a mention?

43:20Gregor Robertson: The Scottish fans are quite good aren't they? Oh he's done it I can't believe I can't believe he's done it Alison I give him the opportunity to be classy and he's wasted it There was a good crossover I think between Norway's fans and Scotland's fans in Boston and there's like I think a lot of pubs a lot of videos taken in pubs of them all doing the rowing because you know two teams united, two nations united rowing in a pub so yes and who else, I think Congo I was just going to say Congo and Cape Verde as well of course you're seeing whole new levels of joy I would like to give a special mention to all South Africa fans who've had to travel all that way and spend that money to see absolutely turgid performances from their team absolutely dreadful stuff So a special mention to South Africa fans who've been partying in the stands.

44:15Let's wrap up by moving into round three then. By the time you're listening to this, we'll be heading towards six games in a day. I've got to prove to Gregor Robertson once again that you can indeed watch two games at a time. He says you can't. He's shaking his head at me from North London. But you can, Gregor, you can do it. And I'm going to prove that you can. Because at the same time as I will be watching Morocco against Haiti, I will also be watching Scotland against Brazil. How are you feeling?

44:43Gregor Robertson: I take it Scotland and Brazil will be on the big screen, yeah? No, no, Scotland and Brazil on the little, maybe I might even put it on the phone. Okay, how am I feeling? Like, I'm terrified, obviously, but at the same time, just kind of, we're playing Brazil in Miami at the World Cup. Like, these are great days. These are great days. days I've not seen in my adult life so I was reading Michael Grant's preview beforehand and there was some great lines in that like, samba music against Adidas sambas, snake hip dancing Brazilians against joyously boozy Scots putting traffic cones on the heads of statues like, yeah, I'm ready I'm ready for it now and like you know, some little nuggets in his piece as well, he kind of, it does feel like we always play Brazil and we do it's the fifth meeting in the World Cup like you know I was even thinking back to I was talking with one of my friends earlier and saying I remember in 1990 when we lost Jim Layton fumbled the ball like late on and we lost 1-0 and we went out and I was getting Ness and Dorma and crying my eyes out I was I was sick I was sick yeah but I do remember that and then the next you know the next World Cup I remember in 98 when we played in the opening opening game in France and I remember that and we ran home from school to watch it early and then there's just this barren period in between and now we're playing Brazil again so I am terrified but I'm also really, really excited and I have a glimmer of hope which is, as ever, is what kills you.

46:20Yeah, a glimmer of hope. Where are you going to be watching? On your own with some pals?

46:23Gregor Robertson: I'm going round to one of my friends and he's got a little boy as well who's going to be experiencing this like we once did for the first time so I hope he's not crying behind the sofa full-time as well. Excellent. And you're going to join me for a podcast afterwards, win, lose or draw, whatever, yeah? At the moment, I'll commit to a yes, but we'll see. If it's really embarrassing, then you might have to get someone else, Tom. Okay, you'll have to get your mate's son to come on instead in your place. But we'll leave it there for now. Gregor Robertson and Alison Rudd, thank you very much for joining me.

46:55Thank you too to Matt Lawton and Tom Olnutt for their insights from the World Cup. We'll be back with another daily World Cup show tomorrow. I'll see you then.

47:27Thank you.

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