WORLD CUP DAY 18: Round of 32 predictions and England update

0:05Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. This is day 18 and on today's show we will attempt to work out who makes the final, previewing and predicting the rest of the round of the 32 after Canada's win against South Africa. and we'll also be reviewing the moments and the great fun that we had in the group stage too. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm joined back in our lovely studio by the former Millwall, Marseille and Island striker, Tony Cascarino and the former Nottingham Forest and Scotland under 21 international, Gregor Robertson.

0:40Chaps, lovely to see you, lovely to see you in the flesh. Gregor's forgotten what you look like, so handsome, not on a screen. Religious and lack of sleep there, Tom. No, no, I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine. What a privilege it is to be here. Also, great listeners to have, you know, two former internationals of two nations, not in the World Cup anymore. So, you know, it's fine. How many World Cups you had, Tom? I played in the same amount of World Cups as Gregor. Good answer. So, on even footing. Did I tee Tony Cascarino up for that gag? Maybe. We'll work that out later on. Anyway, let's get straight into it.

1:18And I wanted to start with just a bit of fun because I'm loving this World Cup. I'm really enjoying it as much as I would hate to admit to Gianni Infantino and to the FIFA mob. I am loving it. So I wanted to just pick out some of our favourite moments because I think there have been loads and loads of great moments. Kaz, we've not heard from you for a few weeks because you've been doing talks about comms and all mad hours and things. But what are some of your favourite moments that you've seen from the group stage? Well, most definitely the rowing by the Norwegian fans. I thought that was hilarious.

1:45Just find it funny every time and the timing of it as well. and how it just caught hold of everybody. I found that. It's such a simple thing as well, isn't it? It's the noise as well. Everyone gets involved in it as well. You've seen loads of US fans and things in Times Square and stuff. They attempted a world record as well. I think they had the most runners at one time. Yeah, so it was great. I think Bielsa's meltdown with Uruguay. I just was like, that's what's coming. You can just imagine, apparently, what's happened in their camp is nobody's business. But that was mad. I think player-wise, early on in the tournament, and I watched Australia take on Turkey and I thought, oh, this would be interesting because Turkey were a really decent side.

2:23I watched Australia beat them and there was the Harry Suter, who was a League One player, now with Leicester, literally went every header. Every time it was flung in the box, it would be Ed Nick Clear. I loved that. Probably adding Steve Clarke's reaction, as in Steve, I played with a Chelsea and watching him get spiky, which I'd seen in the dressing room before, by the way. Yeah. And that was... That's entirely in character, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steve had a bit of a beonies on it about certain things. And he'd done it earlier. He took down the honourable thing. He stepped down straight after, which I...

2:59Yeah. You know, there's not many managers that do that, that would go, I'll sign a new deal. And by the way, maybe he thinks the reaction back in Scotland is not what he felt was right. He's gone.

3:09Gregor Robertson: Yeah. Gregor? He's got a downer on things earlier. I was going to say, where's your shirt, mate? Where's your shirt? They're packed away for four years now. Come on, four years. You think you're qualified for the next one? I don't know, actually. It's a fair point. Exactly. Last time you were in here, Tony had his big shirt on. He was all excited. They've won all the warm-ups. I'm sorry, mate. I'm sorry. I couldn't have myself. It's been a few days now. It's time to make it light-hearted again. What about you, Gregor? We've discussed a few of the moments on the show so far, but there's plenty of them, aren't there?

3:35Gregor Robertson: Yeah. Look, Kate Verde's story, we've said many, many times, has been the story of the tournament for me. The shirts are on order, by the way. Perfect, perfect, perfect. And I love the Ecuador-Germany game and Sebastian Becachete, his reaction on the touchline. He was going from, you know, on a certain dismissal. Apparently the manager before him, his predecessor, was sacked in the changing room immediately after a game. So, you know, he was ready and waiting to the joyous scenes and, you know, Spider-Man climbing up the stands. It was great watching, wasn't it? You were like, where's he going?

4:08Gregor Robertson: Yeah. And he was there for a long time hugging everyone all his family so that was a great moment what about the centre half at Cape Verde oh Pico Lopez yeah the Irish Shane McRover it's so good I was speaking to Ian Whittle on the podcast and he was talking about how it's brilliant to be with him and listen to him speaking pretty good Portuguese and then flip to speaking to the English or British media and then this Irish accent comes out this Dublin accent comes out and you're like this is very jarring but he's a new hero in Ireland that's for sure it's not the World Cup 90s the people will be in Ireland going what the hell Why didn't we let this happen?

4:41What's going on? What's going on? Any others, Greg, that swing to mind?

4:45Gregor Robertson: I mean, to be honest, a lot of it has been the joyous scenes in the stands when an underdog, and there've been a lot of good underdog stories. And Congo is part of that, so we'll come to them. But seeing Congo celebrate their win and their draw against Portugal and the scenes in the stands has been brilliant. Yeah, absolutely. You haven't mentioned the Tartan Army. No. I've mentioned that a lot. Have you? Yeah. You've just got to leave. that you've got to let them just drift away again for a couple of years now, Tone. But I'll just echo that, Gregor, with something we mentioned before, but Iraq's goal against Norway in the game, they got smashed, but a brilliant moment.

5:19Wilson Isidor's goal against Haiti, not only a great goal, but their moment, because they hadn't had a moment. They'd lost to Scotland, they'd lost to Brazil. Score two brilliant goals, particularly that second one, they were fantastic against Morocco. Referee Ivan Barton's performance in Paraguay against Turkey, This is probably one that most of you wouldn't have seen, but you'll have seen the clips afterwards when he sends off Almiron for the red card. Yes, yeah. A moment that's now been turned into like a dance music classic by some people. Decision, red card. It's brilliant. Erling Haaland.

5:51I know I keep banging on about Erling Haaland, but the guy is absolutely box office. Tony, his goals, I loved the goal, and I thought of you as well, everything you talk about, about being a good striker. His goal against Ivory Coast. I think he'd either got the ball and it'd gone away from him, and then he like stropped and did a little sulk and then he saw it might come back and he went switched on straight away and then volleyed it in I was like that is the obsession of a goal scorer oh absolutely like you have it was in a microcosm he had a strop and then woke back up again as soon as he realised oh I can get the ball back I can get the ball back it's a weird one with strikers I've played with some that wouldn't even want to go out in the second half if they you know something that hadn't gone their way they would just sit there I mean Clive Allen refused to come off the bench when I was at Chelsea it's Sunderland away in a cup tie because he thought the manager should have brought him on earlier so he says to him get warmed up and Clive went no but you know the obsession with forwards and one thing that surprised me with Ireland as well that he actually felt like he probably did mind but he didn't play in the third game and he's probably looking at the golden boot and then he's well I'm not playing I did wonder that I did wonder that I didn't know whether he was trying to tease him and throw him on for 20 minutes but then I guess he's playing against France you're like I don't know whether you need this Yeah, loads and loads of really fun moments.

7:06Qatar's late equaliser against Switzerland. I could talk all day about my favourite moments of the work. But let's get into a bit of detailed analysis. And Gregor, we've mentioned Congo. I wanted to talk about them in a second. But let's start with England. That is obviously one of the big round of 32 games to come. Tony, as I keep mentioning, not had you on the pod for a couple of weeks. What are your general reflections on England and their group stage performance? Well, I think for me it's been typified in the paper today. with fragile England are the mercy of righteous fitness. Talk from Martin Samuel and Jonathan talks about now it's time to prove.

7:39And what surprised me is how much change is happening in the team in the through-group games. You know, you're looking at Madawake's start in Anthony Gordon. Now it looks like Anthony Gordon probably won't have another minute unless he comes on as a sub and Rashford's got in. You've seen a lot of change. Mark Gay not playing and then suddenly coming back in, John. It feels like he's nowhere near the 11 he's preferred to want to play. And now you've got the issue at right back. So it feels like they're really spinning plates on England's first team. Yeah. First 11. Well, you mentioned the right back.

8:09We've had some messages from listeners. Jolion from London says, Gregor, it seems the only ego allowed in the England set-up is Thomas Tuchel. Will it cost England the tournament now that Rhys James has a hamstring injury? I think the fans deserve to know what his beef is with Trent Alexander-Arnold. Because, I mean, he's right. A lot of England fans are thinking. and as Tony said there's been a lot of changes which yes all this chat about fitness and things but I mean Matt Lawton was saying to me on the podcast the other day it's been interesting how England haven't really played in any matches where the conditions have been really at their most you know played in pouring rain the other day what do you think to that point about Thomas Tuchel from the listener there?

8:48Gregor Robertson: Yeah well specifically in relation to Trent I said this the other day after the England game it just seemed ludicrous to me that Gerald Kwanzaa He's not even really a right back. He's playing right back for England. Even if, I mean, it's not, I remember it feels kind of a bit ironic now, but you had Rhys James kind of saying, you know, it's getting a bit annoying, a bit boring to me about people always bringing up my injury record and then he gets injured. It's like, well, this is why we're bringing up Rhys. But, you know, it wasn't a mystery. It wasn't, you know, it was clear that this was a risk.

9:20Gregor Robertson: So to hang your hat on Rhys James and Liverpool Mento's the same. He's been really injury prone. So what the answer was next after that was never really entirely clear. And for it not to potentially be Trent Alexander-Arnold, I think probably at some point in the future, Thomas Tuchel does have to explain why that is the case. And if it comes back to being someone who's willing to sit on the sidelines and be satisfied with that, and he doesn't believe Trent would be that, and I'm not sure that's entirely fair. I think Trent Alexander-Arnold has been willing to do that in the past with England and I think he would have been willing to do it in this tournament and he would have had his opportunity now.

10:08Gregor Robertson: So it does feel like a big mistake. Well, that's where you get, for a manager, you're either a genius or an idiot, right? And there's no middle ground on this one because if it falls foul and England really do struggle and they have looked poor on that side of the defence, on the right side as well. There's been a few occasions. The goal was disallowed the other night as well. It was a hairline. The difference of a goal or not. I think that that's where Thomas Tuchel is going to... He's got to get them calls right. If you're going to make these big decisions and leave out certain people, you have to prove everybody wrong.

10:40Yeah, he's got nowhere to hide, has he? No, because... We said that with that squad, wasn't it? I said it to Johnny Northcroft after the Ghana game. I think it's right until it's wrong. And when it's wrong, it's very wrong very quickly in lots of areas and people can start picking it out. In terms of Tuchel and some of, and mentioned that Garner game, Simon has also got in touch saying that, I think Tuchel's a brilliant manager, but do you think he's decisive enough to make changes during a game when things aren't going well? He did it in the first game, but I thought he was slow to act against Garner.

11:08And as you say, Tony, it's clear that Gordon's getting nowhere. What do we think about that idea that he's making lots of changes between games? Does he make them in games enough? Is he making two games, not too many changes? He's made a lot of changes. Not enough changes? Yeah, he's made a lot. And look, the counter argument to that is they were top of their group, which was the first objective. Yeah. Get to top. You get through to the next range. You get a decent game. And the Archongos are going to be a challenge in itself, which we'll talk about in a minute. But high knockout stages. You're going.

11:40The strangest thing is World Cup being there. I can remember being there in Italy and literally a day and a half later travelling home. and you're there thinking you might get an hit on me. We were in the quarterfinals, so it was a tough gig winning against Italy in their own backyard. But actually being there and knowing that one defeat, now you're going home. And you can be going home to a great reception, which we did in 90, but you can also come back to a reception that's muted, difficult. England have had that a few times. So that's the line, the line in the sand of players knowing. A lot of players, and I know this is fact, especially with England.

12:20If they've had a really poor tournament, they don't even go back to England. They go on on to. They want to go back to England because of the price that, you know, criticism or... And also the way the seasons pan out these days. Gregor, sorry.

12:31Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I think, like, I think all the question marks about the squad selection and team selection and the sort of clear uncertainty that there is now about what England's sort of best team is and what Tuchel's best team is are all valid. I think in game changes, he has done, he's tried to make, and they worked in the first game and less so in the second and third games. But we kind of know what his changes are going to be. This is what he's done with the squad. He's made it like he's even said that I've got 15 players who are starters. And so that inevitably means we know he's coming on if they've not started.

13:07Gregor Robertson: So the curveball would be an Ivan Toni. Even Ollie Watkins obviously got some game time, but it's going to be limited because Harry Kane will stay on the pitch. and I think we're also in a World Cup you're so quick to write off a player like Anthony Gordon I don't think he's finished I think he can still have a big say in a game it might be from the bench I still don't think there's much between him and Rashford yeah he didn't light up the World Cup when he had his opportunity as a starter but that doesn't mean his World Cup's over and I think the same's true of Madueke he had a poor sort of cameo in the last game but I think he did pretty well in the first couple of games he was direct and Jed Spence you were worried about him after the last game though I'm a little bit worried about him I just feel like you're getting a sense that the manager and possibly even some teammates don't entirely trust him and that's not a good place to be when you're a member of a back four who haven't got much relationship as it is at a World Cup entering the knockout rounds that's not a great place to be but we've also seen what he offers and he can offer a hell of a lot going forward so like for me I'd still play personally I'd still probably play ahead of Kwanzaa but I can see the dynamic about Nico O 'Reilly is allowed to go forward more if Kwanzaa comes round but I would say I wouldn't hang our hats on Kwanzaa because he saw his ankle roll and it's a quick turnaround I'd be surprised if he's a fit person He was berating wasn't he?

14:30You could see Tuchel berating

14:31Gregor Robertson: Jed Spence Yeah Jed Spence during the game and that isn't a good thing because it wasn't just once and you know you're giving information now it was continual for a while and then that that would be my one concern for Jed Spence because he's incredibly quick I mean, I've been lucky enough to watch him probably about four or five times at Spurs this year. And you can see he's one of them defenders that because he knows he's so quick, people get the other side of him. Now, against a very elite, you might not catch that player, but he catches most. You know, Kyle Walker had that in his game for a while there.

15:04Because he was so quick, someone could have two yards on Kyle Walker. He'd recover and get there. But when you're up against the very best, and there are some, we know that Vinicius Jr. is like that. that he's one of them. You know, Yamel is a similar one. There's a few of them out there. Luis Diaz, I know he's on the other side, but he's, again, he's one of them that's going to run you. Yeah, absolutely. You might not have that half a yard to catch up. I also just wanted to ask, Tony, about Ivan Toney. Gregor mentioned it there. We've discussed it a lot. A bit surprised not to have seen him thrown on.

15:33Him and Harry Kane. Do you think we might see it? Or do you think he's going to be one of those players, Kobe Maynou as well, who's maybe just going to sit on the bench for England the whole time? I mean, Ivan Toni is meant to be this wild card, isn't he? To make England play differently. And gives you something that you always talk about. Two strikers. Strikers love playing together. So what scenario do you use Ivan Toni? Well, I thought you'd use him in 15 minutes when you're looking for a goal against Ghana. OK. So you're trying to unsettle and redirect the ball. That's the idea. When you put centre-forward on a big centre-forward, is that you can now play diagonal balls where you can get runners in from midfield that can come into the penalty box and join you.

16:12So you can do that with Ivan and Tony and you make Kane drop a little bit deeper. That's the idea. When it was gone, I thought it was screaming out for a different direction of the pass. Instead of going into there and out to there and going either side, you're redirecting the ball to a different area. It poses different problems, Tom. Yeah, well, it might be that he might be needed against DR Congo because while some England fans might be looking at that game going, well, nice DR Congo. I got news for you. DR Congo are good they are a very very impressive team at this World Cup so far even in defeat against Colombia I thought they played really well in that game and Pasi in the goal were putting a brilliant display so there's no guarantees here England fans absolutely none whatsoever Gregor what have your thoughts been on DR Congo in the games that you've seen yeah I think

16:56Gregor Robertson: they look really really disciplined defensively got a really good structure and some some solid you know Premier League players Twanzebi Wan-Bissaka Masuaku's played for a couple of Premier League teams No Sadiki in front of him in midfield He looks a real player He looks like a classic signing Obviously went to Sunderland Quite a lot of money Very young Few fans thinking Gosh that's quite a lot of money This tournament I've looked going He's good He's got£80 million offer from Chelsea Incoming in a couple of years Yeah he's been brilliant And Xhaka Yeah If they don't get Xhaka maybe I think he could have played for Belgium and there's sort of, you know, there's a piece in the Times today about it's another nation about how they've kind of cast out into search for the diaspora and he committed to Congo and a lot of people in Belgium are thinking, Craig, he would have got another team now.

17:49Gregor Robertson: So, yeah, he's been excellent and Wissler's really stepped up, like, so, I mean, delighted Newcastle fans. Yeah. It's a bit of good news, isn't it? He's been clinical, hasn't he? Newcastle fans are wondering where that's been over here. I made that joke the other day, Anthony Alanga looks good as well for Sweden. They might be losing Tonali and Gimarese and everyone, but don't worry Newcastle fans, a couple of these other lads have turned out to be alright. He just looks like he won't need many opportunities. He's in that mood, he's in that frame where even his second goal in the last game on Edge of the Box, that's a great finish.

18:23Gregor Robertson: He's kind of almost facing away from goal and he's turned it into the far corner. It's a great finish. And as I say, looking back to the first game against Portugal in particular, Portugal were really labouring to try and break them down. That's the kind of worrying thing for England is that you've had a couple of games like that already and you're going to face a similar kind of opponent who are happy and probably, you know, at their best, being really obdurate and disciplined like that and then offering a threat. Off they go, yeah. And that's the thing. Even, you know, Panama got in behind England a couple of times.

18:55DR Congo will take the chances that maybe Panama missed, won't they? Yeah, well, I was going to add in, I did the Portugal game against DR Congo and like Craig I said, three out of four backliner Premier League, experienced players. Twon Zaby's a really good player. And bar injury, he would have had a far bigger career than he did. Yeah. If he's fit, and they've got Mbemba next to him. Jansel Mbemba, yeah. I think a lot of fans will remember him. Absolutely. Doesn't miss much in the air. So they've got that. Look, the unthinkable is what sort of reception would England get coming back if they got beat by Congo?

19:29Because quality alone, England have got way more. Of course, yeah. But this will come down to typical knockout play in a tournament where if after an hour it's nil-nil, anything's up for grabs. And England, I just haven't convinced yet. Even the most optimistic England fans are thinking, we haven't quite got going. That's what they're thinking about their own team. Yeah, well, we're getting some predictions for the round of 32 in the second half of the show, but just wanted to wrap up a few more bits from the group stage. Gregor obviously mentioned the Scotland shirts have gone away, but we have got another question.

20:02from Roger, who's a listener, who just wanted to ask. It said, Tom, as we inevitably rake over the coals of Scotland's exit, I'm wondering why Olly McBurney hasn't been mentioned. Scotland lacked any sort of strike threat, yet a man who scored more goals in the season than Dykes, Adams and Stewart combined didn't make the squad. Thoughts?

20:20Gregor Robertson: I mean, I don't think Olly McBurney would have changed a lot for Scotland. He's still not the kind of mobile striker that we desperately needed. He's had a really good season, hasn't he? And I know he was on Steve Clarke's radar. clearly he would be after that number of goals but I know that actually there was contact made with Olly McBurnie through other players members of the squad to see whether he would be up for a return because he had a difficult time in the Scotland jersey when he played for the country a few years back so would he have offered something different? Possibly but I don't think he would have been a starter I don't think he's massively different in profile to Stuart and I don't think he's someone who would have raised the bar.

21:05Gregor Robertson: So, he's a bit lucky not to be in the squad but I don't think it would have changed much. Greg, of all the things that happened during the tournament, what disappointed you the most about Scotland? How long have we got? No, the things that disappointed me the most are just the way that almost the surreal experience of what, you know, all the excitement, all the build-up and you watch the game against Morocco and you can see the goal after 70 seconds and then you watch the game against Brazil and you gift them a goal after five minutes. Like, it's just, my goodness, guys, can we just like give ourselves a chance?

21:38Gregor Robertson: Because we know our limitations and those kind of two moments in particular were really hard to take. So, I've had a few days to kind of process it all. I'm still in the same sort of position. I think Steve Clark deserves enormous credit for the job he's done and, yeah, we could have been a bit bolder possibly but you look at some of the nations we're talking about now who've progressed playing with a very similar approach to what Scotland are trying to do. They've battened down the hatches and they try and offer something on the counter. They didn't give gifts away. They didn't give gifts away.

22:11Gregor Robertson: We've given the gifts away. And probably actually, in truth, in all honesty, don't have the same threat on the counter. So Steve Clarke was always working with a very difficult hand, very limited in central defence, very limited in attack. and the bits in between didn't even really perform as we'd hoped. Have you got any tissues? That's what was playing in my head. Stiff drink at the break. Let's just wrap up the other matches that we didn't do on Sunday's show. Argentina, another, I must say, a little bit of a procession for them. 3-1 against Jordan, particularly that Lionel Messi goal. I mean, I really want him to play someone good.

22:54Like, listen, he's no doubt the best player in the world. like he's amazing but they're kind of fawning around these goals he scored a tap-in the other day and the commentator was like it's genius what a guy for goodness sake I mean it was a clever free kick around the wall but I mean come on you can do better than that we'll mention Colombia in the second half of the show we've discussed how brilliant DR Congo are Algeria, Austria this is I was in the office on my own watching this game after the England performance against Panama had a lovely moment actually didn't we Tony when I'd finished my shift at about quarter past five have walked out the offices.

23:26Who was coming in? Tony Cascarino. What perfect way to finish your shift and give you a little boost before a deadly night bus home in London. But that game, Algeria-Austria, absolutely bonkers finish. It was really fun for a long time and I thought it was going to be stale. It was really fun. And then they all kind of went, oh no, stop being so fun. And then Riyad Mahrez scores a brilliant goal. And I don't know if any of you have seen this. There's a few of his teammates are coming over to him and people making jokes but they're going over to do that for we're playing spain now you idiot christ send austria go up to the end and score um maras's comments after the game he said it was a bit awkward to be honest we were playing wide and they were sitting but in the last minute someone plays a ball he turns and i have to make the run i have to respect football the ball arrives in front of the keeper and i have to score i have to try to score i know it's an awkward situation but it's football and I have to respect it um I mean when you're saying it it sounds awkward Riyad like just like if you're having to say it out loud it makes it worse I think I mean I appreciate all the comments um and then he said and the good thing well the good thing for them Austria is that they score and they qualify we both qualify and that's the most important thing today he says not for Iran fans who are sat with maybe one of the more heartbreaking exits in World Cup uh history in and then out several times as well given their very very close offside call the other day I mean, what do we make of this?

24:47I don't want to get into conspiracy theories and stuff like that because, as I say, I think for 60 minutes this was a really entertaining game. But it was odd to then have 25 minutes of them literally passing it sideways and backwards and then to score. It was all very strange. Yeah, I mean, I was listening to it on the radio coming in and I've been in that scenario myself with the Netherlands back in 1990 where we literally played out the last 15 minutes of the game and I was told to stop chasing and closing down and so was Noel Quinn because we're both trying to battle. Actually, me and Noel Quinn are playing together.

25:18Twin towers. Literally that scenario. And when we scored, and then I remember Ronald Koeman saying, calm down to me and Quinny. And I was like, what for? I'm thinking, what for? We'll calm down. Because we're both through. So he was playing against you? Yeah, yeah. And he said to you, calm down. Calm down, yeah. And he was coming from the sideline. I remember looking at the bench and they're going, stop. Really? Literally that. Because we were both through. So you'd have been giving Riyad Mahrez a clip then, that's for sure. No, look, it's hard because the message doesn't get around us altogether that we're going to just stop.

25:52It gradually goes from one to another and suddenly, like you said, once it gets to the position, they're both through.

25:59Gregor Robertson: Yeah. Yeah, they both set out to... You set out to win a game of football and then you see how the game develops. And then, as you say, you got to that stage in the second half where you're like, OK, this is... State of affairs we're both probably comfortable with. And then Riyad Mahrez, as much as his honesty was kind of a bit jarring, it's the truth. You know, he gets played through. You're a footballer. You're on the pitch and you're in front of goal and you've got a shot and you're going to take it. What else is he supposed to do? Yeah. So it's the awkward situation with these kind of knockout tournaments and particularly this format.

26:34Gregor Robertson: You saw the same kind of thing in Australia's last game. The lowest expected goals. Don't get me started about that game. I was very upset. But you do not think with all these games, Tom, I mean, you know, we're playing way more games than we've ever had in the tournament. You were always going to have more than one of these scenarios where teams, because there's so many groups. Yeah. You just start. I know. This is not World Cup 1930 when there were 13 teams in the tournament. And I'm not, it's also, as Greg has said, you know, I've seen, we've all seen league games as well, haven't we, at the end of the season where we're like, this is fine.

27:04This is fine, everyone. You know, blow the whistle now, ref, let's get to the pub. And just one other comment from Riyad Mahrez that was particularly striking and much more enjoyable is highlighting with great pride that 9 out of 10 of the African nations made it through to the round of 32. It was lovely to hear Riyad Mahrez speaking with such pride about that and we're going to talk about... The odd one out? Yeah. Tunisia. Tunisia. Well done. Who definitely didn't deserve to be anywhere near the round.

27:28Gregor Robertson: One of the few teams that were washed in Scotland. Yes, absolutely. They definitely were. They definitely were. Who were the worst? I thought Uzbekistan were the worst I saw. No, Tunisia were worse than Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan were decent in moments in the games I saw and they scored a great goal. They scored a great goal. Tunisia were absolutely dreadful. Truly, truly awful. I mean, I actually thought South Africa were pretty bad until the second game. But we'll talk about South Africa, Canada after this quick break. So stick with us.

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28:42welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times these are our daily world cup shows i'm tom clark and i've got tony cascarino and grego robertson with me and just before we get into the predictions and mapping out the route to the final grego i've got one more question which i think is right up your street uh from phil who says when so much effort is being made to keep the game flowing which i think he's right uh has been happening at this tournament why do referees hold up play at every corner to warn players about making contacts if they foul give a free kick or penalty but please stop this ridiculous charade at every corner

29:15Gregor Robertson: here here yeah i agree and i asked this very question when i uh attended you know i'm doing this kind of player to referee yeah course and and following a group of former players who are training to become referees and i'm one of the one of the seminars they show they show games on the screen and you're kind of supposed to analyse the action and this very thing happened. There was a referee intervened and said there was some grappling in the box from a corner and a referee intervened and warned the players and then the same thing happened and he gave a penalty. And the question was, was this a good process?

29:53Gregor Robertson: And I said, why warn him in the first place? I totally agree. I don't understand why a referee has to warn a player for committing a foul. it's the only scenario in the game you do it and the answer was well you'd be chaos otherwise no no it wouldn't you just give the foul or the penalty and that would nip it in the bud I mean that seems to always there always seems to be a bit of a reluctance in officiating to actually use their power sometimes to to stamp down on something yeah it's like we've got to warn or we've got to you know create a new sort of protocol or whatever just give a foul and so I totally agree I feel like it's a waste of time and this whole idea as well about it from corners you can seem to commit so many fouls because the ball is not live and and that potentially changing is really interesting yeah it could be a decisive if that comes in maybe they'll change the rules halfway through a tournament that would be very uh refereeing like let's get into mapping out every round of 32 game then uh loads of thoughts and predictions to come but let's start with one that's already taken place uh canada beating south africa 1-0 um there is actually another question from a listener brian who's in toronto who said how will be how big will home advantage be to usa mexico and canada in the knockout stages well canada they weren't at home in canada for this one but there were lots of fans in the stands uh and we'll come on to usa and mexico in a second but thoughts on this game i mentioned just before the break that i thought south africa were pretty poor in their opening two games um i think they improved and they a lot of fight a lot of effort in this game but a lot of nothing too a lot of passes around the back a lot of i've got some stats here south africa's ronwyn williams their goalkeeper made 77 successful passes the most on record since 1966 by a goalkeeper in the world cup which i think when he when your keeper's making the most passes it says everything um after having the game's first shot on target after just six minutes south africa didn't register another attempt on target for the remainder of the match and they also recorded an expected goals of just 0.13 against Canada, their second lowest ever in a World Cup match since Mexico in the first match of the tournament.

32:01So, I mean, we had a South Africa fan get in touch, who I mentioned on the show the other day. I think they did very well to get this far. I'm not upset that they're out because I really like Canada. I really like what Canada do.

32:12Gregor Robertson: They weren't good in this game, but I agree. I've really enjoyed watching them in the knockouts. I've got to remember the context. like before this World Cup the record was played six lost six like the draw against Bosnia which they should have won was their first ever point and obviously thrashed Qatar the Switzerland defeat was big because as you say it took them away from Canada and that they felt like it did feel like there was kind of extra force behind them in those games even watching them on the TV you could appreciate how good an atmosphere it was so that was a big kind of disappointment for them and they weren't good in this game what I've liked about them as we said this in a recent show is that they play with so much energy and sort of dynamism and they press high and you know Jesse Marsh this is the kind of football he likes a bit like Premier League football you didn't really see that in this game it's hard against South Africa because they knock it around the back and don't do anything with it but they just found that one moment of quality Stephen Estacchio like it was a great finish and it was a great moment for Canada and for for everyone involved really yeah They'll be out whether they get the Netherlands or Morocco in the next round.

33:20Do you not think they'll give them a game? I think they'll give them a game. Give them a game, they'll get beat. Morocco or the Netherlands will beat. We'll come on to that in a second. I just wanted to ask Tony quickly about the penalty not given at the end of the first half. I thought of you with that because you often talk about strikers running across people, getting the clip of the legs and things. We've got a striker and a defender in here. I was watching it thinking, I mean, that's a penalty. And then they went back to the studio, Karen Khan. I mean, they made arguments about them touching the ball and stuff.

33:46and I was like yeah but he's taken him out like he's stopped him hasn't he I mean I don't know I've quite liked a lot of the refereeing decisions and how clinical they've been and how no nonsense but there have also been some clangers I think you know Haibu in the Ecuador game Conce England very lucky I think France didn't get a penalty when they definitely should have I think Mbappe got taken out I'll give you those two

34:09Gregor Robertson: I wasn't even having the Germany-Ecuador one because again for me it's one where we've said this so many times it's about even when there's that excessive force kind of challenge too. What are you supposed to do? The ball's there to be won and the best way of winning it is to raise your foot. And he did it. He didn't kick his head. He kicked the ball and the player headed his foot. For me, I get everyone saying I'm in the minority here, but I'm happy for that one not to be in a penalty. This one too, I think it's such a grey area. It's when a player's trying to get himself in between the defender and the ball and the defender stretches out a leg, it could have been given either way.

34:48Gregor Robertson: I'm happy for it not to be. See, if you run across the line, if you've got half a, not even half a yard, you know, six inches in front of a defender, if you just run across him, the defender can't help but foul you. Or say foul you, but catch you. Connect. That's why the touch on the ball is important for me. Yeah, exactly. Even though it's so really minuscule, having getting any touch on the ball was probably what saw in his favour. You just cannot avoid the challenge. Yeah. So it's an easy one for a forward to do. Interesting. Great. Well, there you go. Let's get into it then. I've got the Times' brilliant predictor, which you can play online or on your mobile app.

35:25I've got it up now. So let's map out and work out who we get to the final. I know the answer already, by the way, but I'm not going to reveal it. Because actually, once you start playing it out, it is quite obvious. But we've got some really exciting, really exciting... Unexpected things do happen, Tom. They do. They do. But I bet you're going to agree with me in a minute. But anyway, we will see. Starting tonight, Brazil-Japan. What a great game this could be. And fascinating. Japan have been brilliant. Lots of people quite rightly praising them. Brazil, I am fascinated to see which Brazil turn up tonight.

35:55Because I think in that group, we discussed it. They played in first gear against Haiti and Scotland. Morocco was a difficult game. You felt like Ancelotti was still working out his best team. Is it all coming together? Brazil-Japan. Thoughts?

36:09Gregor Robertson: I think I'm not convinced by Brazil yet. I agree with you it feels like they've just done what they had to do the Morocco game certainly the first half was pretty chastening and I don't feel like they have quite the right balance in midfield enough legs in midfield they're remarkably passive without the ball but that's clearly our tactic it's a ploy Carlo Ancelotti is saying you don't have to go and hound and harry and win the ball back just sit off and when we win it back then we'll go so they're kind of playing counter-attacking football a lot of the time but Japan are a good team and Japan beat them in October in a friendly and I think some of their kind of some of their patterns and Maeda's goal against Sweden was one of the best moves of the tournament beautiful playing a little turn inside bounce pass and an incisive pass into Maeda's feet I like Uedi the Feyenoord striker as well yes We've got a lot of players we know, Tanaka, Kamada, Tomi Asus, Ajax now.

37:15Gregor Robertson: I think I wouldn't be that surprised if Japan won. Now, I mean, watching Ryan play right side for Brazil and Kunia's position has sort of changed and got into the team and you've got Vinicius Jr., there's danger there. They're all terrific players. I do feel when I watch Brazil, they're not... Have you ever said to me 20 years ago, or all of us, like Japan playing Brazil in this stage of the competition. It's just a slam dunk, isn't it? It's going to be Brazil. It's not that. Japan are a team, and that's their biggest quality, that everybody is committed to every position on the pitch, defensively, midfield, and attack-wise.

37:54And that's the intriguing thing, because a lot of people are going to watch this and think, they've got a chance, Japan. They really have. It's going to be really tight. It comes down to then, we've got to pick one. There's part of me that's thinking, I keep looking at it and go Japan say Japan but there's something that says Brazil in your head the whole time when they've got Vinicius when they've got him he looks I mean he's looked electric even in like first gear in my opinion in this tournament I think he looks like he could be absolutely he's on four goals already Tom hasn't he I think Cunha has looked good I think they've found a good role for him and Vinicius I agree with you about midfield but at the same time Bruno Guimaraes is a top level midfielder and I think we've not seen anything out of the fact they've got two of the best centre-backs in Gabriel and Marquinhos they haven't got a lot of legs in their midfield who are we going I'm just leaning towards Brazil just and I'm not quite sure why because everything else says to me Japan but come on I'll happily go with the group I'll go Brazil but I think it will be via sort of extra time penalties I would see Japan

39:01Gregor Robertson: I think clearly you're right they have match winners Kunio's been really important for them and Vinicius is Vinicius but I think Japan look like a real team right let's go Japan it's more fun if we go Japan I'll go Japan I'll regret it Germany Paraguay um I mentioned this game in our World Cup newsletter today I think a lot of people will be looking at this and looking at the stats from the groups and thinking this is a slam dunk for Germany they have got a fight on their hands in this game Paraguay are scrappers if there's dishing out random awards for this World Cup, scrappers of the tournament are Paraguay.

39:35Absolutely. They got through, I mentioned it already, Almiron sending off and things, but they were brilliant. So tenacious in that 1-0 win against Turkey. They scrapped and fought and gamesmanship and rolling around and absolutely everything for 45 minutes. And it ain't pretty, but it's what you've got to do. And this Germany team are fascinating me. Konstantin Aitken has written a piece on the website about, he wrote a piece beforehand. I asked him, you know, write a piece, how good are Germany? and I commissioned him again at the end of the group stage to say, we still don't know the answer to this question, do we?

40:05How good are Germany? Neuer looks a weak spot. They've got some talented players like Musiala, but if they don't scrap in this game and Paraguay get a goal, maybe. I'm going to go for Paraguay. Really? I'm going to go for them. I mean, also their goalkeeper's been, which is, you could say that's not a good thing, but I thought he's done with it. Orlando Gill is their goalkeeper and I thought he's had a really good tournament. Six foot six, really, one of them great shot stoppers. And I just think that there's something about Paraguay. I go back to World Cup 98, and I was saying to Gregor before, there's something about the Paraguayans in World Cups.

40:41If you ask any French player who won the World Cup that year in 98, the hardest match they played, they'd say Paraguay. Because they played 10 men against France for nearly 80 minutes. That's without extra time. And Paraguay beat, sorry, France beat them in extra time in Laurent Blanc scoring. Now, okay, that's a long time ago. But there's something in their DNA that what you just said, that scrapping, fighting for everything, I don't think the Germans are that good. They scored in the second minute against them. Yeah, yeah. There's a long time to hold on to that lead. Yeah, and the thing is, when they scored, you could see them just going, that's enough, that's fine.

41:14We can lock this down.

41:16Gregor Robertson: Yeah. I mean, I think Germany will get through, Gregor. Yeah, no, I totally take on board everything you're saying, but I would go with Germany still. I don't think there's a great atmosphere in the camp. Like, Konstantin's mentioned that in his piece too. and Nagelsmann's kind of looked a bit spiky and some of his decisions are being questioned now, particularly Neuer. They don't have a kind of great chemistry and attack yet, either, like Sane's kind of... Flirting in it now. Yeah, it doesn't look like he's entirely... He's certainly not at his peak. Undav, he seems reluctant to start despite him coming on and scoring goals.

41:54Gregor Robertson: And Musiala and Wurz are kind of flattering to deceive a bit. So they don't look like a coherent side, but I don't know. I still feel like they'll manage to get through this. We'll just go Germany, because it only gets tougher to predict. Netherlands, Morocco. Tone? Morocco. Gregor? It's tough. It's tough, isn't it? It is a tough one. It's one of the toughest. The opening four games, in terms of order of time and when they're coming, because we'll come onto Ivory Coast, Norway in a minute, I think that's the most difficult to predict. Gregor, Netherlands, Morocco? I think Morocco. could be like the penalties really I've been impressed with the Netherlands like I think what's interesting is they've played a lot they've been great on the flanks yeah like a lot of direct kind of old fashioned wing play and Morocco's full backs are Masraoui's playing on the left and often drifts inside as a midfielder and Hakimi who plays like a number 10 so like that's going to be an interesting dynamic their biggest threat is going to be almost trying to keep them pinned back in so I'm going for Netherlands gosh so do we need to do a team one I think Morocco have that again that dynamism that we just talked about with Paraguay but also have real quality yeah I think I'm just leaning Morocco partly because I want it to happen okay go Morocco I think but I agree with you about Netherlands because also Morocco striker his name escapes me just at the minute but I mean big brilliant strong he's coming up against yes Saibari he's been fantastic but when you look at Netherlands back four you think well Van Dijk Van Hecker Van Der Ven you know they're all big lads with decent levels of pace.

43:26But I'm going to go Morocco. I think we should go for Morocco because I think it would be a great story for them to go deep in this competition. Ivory Coast, Norway. Anyone got a shout over this? Because I haven't got a clue. I think Ivory Coast have been great. Norway have been fantastic, but then you know. The art wing is that when they lost to France, it was basically the second 11 of Norway, wasn't it? So they've had a good rest up and they're playing the long game, aren't they, Norway? But they bit, you know, Senegal, obviously Senegal and Ivory Coast are not just linking them because they're African nations but I'd say they're at similar kind of levels that was 3-2 that was a really tight and entertaining game with Norway I think Ivory Coast are one of the best African teams I've seen in this competition

44:05Gregor Robertson: they were unlucky to lose against Germany yeah obviously beat Ecuador and they've got some really good attacking players like Dior Mandy looks like he could be going to join PSG Pepe's Pepe looked good Pepe's been really good for his country he's got a really good goal scorer he's had a great season with Villarreal as well and obviously he's remembered here for being a bit of a flop at Arsenal but he's a good player his actual goal record wasn't that bad at Arsenal no you know Ahmad Ahmad as well is a threat and he popped up with a really important goal in the first game so

44:44I started looking at this game and thought ah Norway and then I've been increasingly leaning I'm going Ivory Coast I think Norway looked great

44:50Gregor Robertson: do you think? I think Norway have been really good from set plays as well and I feel like Like, they're the land of the giants. They've got many ways of scoring goals and winning games. I think Haaland will ultimately make the difference. Also, for Alison Rudd doubling down on Norway winning it, we need him to go past the round of 32, don't we? Let's go for Norway. France, Sweden, I think this is an easy one, isn't it? Sweden. No. We could lack lyrically about France. They have just got so much. Yeah, we'll maybe talk about France as we keep progressing through this mapping out. Mexico, Ecuador is another really interesting game.

45:30Mexico, obviously top in their group, fantastic, but I think one of the weakest groups in the tournament. Ecuador, we talked about them maybe coming good. Thoughts?

45:39Gregor Robertson: I mean, everyone seems to think that Mexico are a shooing for this. You know, when you're predicting who England would play next and stuff, they're like, oh, it could be Mexico and the Azteca. But no, I mean, I agree with you because they played South Africa, South Korea, who were really sorry in this tournament, and Czech Republic. and he played five changes for the Czech Republic game and they arguably look better. Played a 17-year-old midfielder, Roberto Mora, who was really, really good. The left back from Alkmaar scored a brilliantly composed finish. So it'd be interesting to see what they do with their team.

46:07Gregor Robertson: I think they lack pace. Almost all of their team are domestic-based. And Ecuador don't concede goals. They literally don't concede goals. They've conceded nine goals in Becca Chessy's 23 games. always zero or one I would go Ecuador I'd go Ecuador fine I would like Mexico to go through because I think for the listeners point about home advantage and tournaments having home teams but I think they've also won a knockout game in 40 years I think I agree with you the group is a group that you would look at and go that's one of the weakest and the Czechia or Czech Republic whatever way we want to go they were in Ireland they knocked out Ireland and I didn't think they were a good side no they were really poor this tournament England-Congo we've talked about the analysis just pick a winner England yeah oh I really wanted them to both go for Congo but we'll go for England in that one then Belgium Senegal Belgium oh my gosh they've been a difficult watch at times so I'm going Senegal because I want it to happen because I think they've been a better team and I just want Belgium out of this tournament I like they're just they're beyond the kind of last hurrah they're beyond the last dance now you know the manager turning Rudy Garcia going okay go on Romelu go on then I mean and he then scores he scores he scored twice coming off the bench and listen De Bruyne but Leandro Trossard looked okay in the last game I just Belgium I'm so tired of that golden generation and I can't believe they're still here just go away Senegal anyone upset with me going Senegal I think they'll beat them I think Senegal will beat them yeah let's go Senegal that's perhaps maybe better I just need to get that off my chest USA against Bosnia USA yeah I think it is Bosnia very very solid and got a win in the last game but not always pretty I think in Canada in that first game they are the biggest team in the tournament I would say a bunch of big bruisers Saad Kolasinac at the back actually looks like you know when you were at school and you had the rugby player playing in the team he does doesn't he he looks like the kind of big bloke you've got your mate from the rugby team go on you can do a job play left back for us you can do a job at right back yeah yeah yeah just hit him don't worry about no not that hard not that hard yeah let's go has he committed loads of fouls no one blows up against him he fouls for fun he's too scary isn't he he fought off those robbers at that time.

48:19The rest were like, oh, Christ, I'm not getting involved in that. Spain against Austria. Ah, Spain. Spain, yeah. Spain. Spain, really interesting that Spain, James Gibran mentioned this on the podcast the other day, not conceded as much as all the chat around. In qualifying, they were nearly the same, All this chat around, you know, Le Mal and they can't find goals. Actually, they're just really solid and really difficult to beat Portugal-Croatia. Portugal, ooh, I've not been convinced by at this tournament at all. I keep looking at them going, and I've got a pal of mine who listens to the show who messages me every day nearly going Roberto Martinez is the biggest con in football how has he got this job I don't understand it thoughts on this game I think they probably do have enough to beat Croatia but they're a wily old bunch Croatia aren't they they look like Belgium Portugal yeah that sort of you know they've got some great players not delivering I've not been convinced about them at all no I would go for Croatia really wow Tone yeah same one Okay, well, I'm outvoted.

49:19I think I probably would go Portugal, because I want them to be good. I want them to deliver, but yeah, we will see. Switzerland, Algeria. Ooh, Switzerland. Switzerland, I like Manzambi up front. I think he's a really exciting talent. I think they look pretty solid. Switzerland, they've improved as the tournament's gone on. Algeria, not fully sure about them at different times.

49:39Gregor Robertson: A lot of experienced players who've been in knockouts, major tournament football, Kanji, Xhaka, Froiler Rodriguez left back Vargas and Bola up front they've been here before I think they're a decent team their subs have worked brilliantly for them haven't they Benzambi the one you make Shadis come on they've got a few that have come on and made a bit of a difference when they've come on the pitch there's a fun thing of people at the start of the tournament saying it's not a tournament until Rodriguez left back has played for Switzerland and I feel the same about Murat Yakin on the touchline now it's a tournament now it's an international uh tournament and so we'll go switzerland there australia egypt this is probably the most of the round of 32 games for my book when i'm looking at some of these other matches norway ivory coast and thinking why are you two playing each other this isn't fair um i'm going egypt partly because i'm still upset at australia for that paraguay game som that's pens to me i only see pens in that game nil nil and pens no i think egypt have shown in the last game they played a bit of spark and a bit of they've made changes in the game Salah and a few others look like they've got a bit between their teeth I'm going to Egypt I agree yeah I've been disappointed with Australia after that start I know yeah and they were poor against the US and he dropped him I was so angry yeah they just kind of the last two games in the group stage have been really poor so they've got threats Sireen Kound as a threat.

51:12Gregor Robertson: I like Jackson Irvine as a footballer, but they're not of the same level, I think, Egypt. Argentina, Cape Verde. Could you imagine? Could you imagine? I've been the big centre-half. Could you imagine? Cape Verde from Shamrock Rovers. Could you imagine? I mean, it's not going to happen, is it? Imagine that. Imagine if he got the winner. Lionel Messi and Argentina. He'd never have to work again, would he? He'd never have to work again, would he? He's already at that level. It is probably Argentina though, isn't it? I mean... Yeah. Yeah. We're at the stage of buying Kate Verde shirts. If they win this one, I'm almost at the point of getting a Pico Lopez tattoo.

51:48I know... Look, we know they went on and won it in Qatar. Yeah. But if you're looking at the... I mean, also they lost to Saudi Arabia in the first game in Qatar. They actually look a much more improved Argentina. And they've got legs in there, like they had pass and others. They've got some really good energy as well. Well, I'm going to just wrap up in a minute by showing what the map out is, but we need to finish with a prediction for the last one. I think we know where we're going. Colombia against Ghana. Tom?

52:13Gregor Robertson: Colombia. Colombia. I'll go Colombia too. That'd be tough for them. Ghana are tough not to crack, as England are well aware. But they've got players. But they do. They have match winners. I've loved watching. Daniel Munoz has been fantastic. I loved watching Colombia at this tournament. I think I actually worked out who my best four teams that I've seen, and it's like France, Argentina, I think Spain actually do look quite good. And then I was like, I think Colombia are the fourth best team that I've seen overall. They were brilliant. They were brilliant against Portugal. Morocco, you've left out.

52:43Yeah, Morocco, all right. I think there's more to come from Morocco. I'm excited to see that. But I love Colombia. Munoz bombing down the right. He often ends up, they often end up with like four across the front line. Oh, it's lovely to see him, isn't it? When he turned up, I was like, are you still playing? What happened? 2014, you were the top scorer. I know, it was amazing. Also, I love the fact that they just let him be what he always wants to be. You know, just rove around in the middle. Don't worry, we'll do all the running. Munoz bombing up and down. Diaz trying to get him behind. That's how I've been runners.

53:13It absolutely does. Well, let's just wrap up this show and we'll come back to talk about it. But this is the round of 16 we've ended up with then. Germany v France. Canada, Morocco. Croatia, Spain. USA, Senegal. Japan against Norway. Another hipster clash there. Ecuador, England. Argentina, Egypt. Switzerland, Colombia. Shall we just do a quick run-through? Germany, France. France? France. Canada, Morocco. Morocco. Croatia, Spain? Spain. USA, Senegal? Senegal. USA. Oh, I'll go Senegal with tone. Colombia, Switzerland? Colombia. Argentina, Egypt? Argentina. England, Ecuador? England. Japan, Norway.

53:56Oh, God. Impossible. Japan. Japan. Right, quarterfinals. Japan, England. Come on, let's work it out. This is what we want. Japan, England. Japan, England, this is potential. Come on. Just say Japan. I'm not upset. Oh, I don't know. That's a real toughie. I mean, look, we're taking a friendly in consideration. We're way down the road. This is not definitive. Don't put your house on it. I said Brazil would just get the edge of Japan. You two can answer this. That's fair. England. All right, fine. I think Japan would beat England. But anyway, Argentina, Colombia. I think Colombia would give them a great game.

54:38But Argentina. Spain, Senegal. Spain. France, Morocco. France. High scoring game, France. That would leave us with semi-finals. France against Spain. England, Argentina. Argentina. Argentina. Argentina, France. France, Spain. Who's winning that one?

54:57Gregor Robertson: France. And therefore, the answer, as I referenced at the top, is that we are getting a rerun of France and Argentina in the final. Kylian Mbappe's revenge. I can see it now. That would be exciting, wouldn't it? Well, it would be. We may have a few wrong in there. Of course we have. But I think ultimately... We've probably got them all wrong. You're probably better getting the... There's more chance of getting the lottery numbers right than getting that right. No, but even if we have a few wrong, we still ultimately end up with that final. Exactly. I've done... When I was losing sleep last night, trying to keep my body clock on there so that I can stay up for Netherlands, Morocco, I did this on the Times website it's great it's really simple it maps it all out for you and every single time I ended up with France-Argentina as the final every single time doesn't matter who I picked it got down to it and I couldn't not pick those two whoever their opponents Spain France would be a great a great semi but France look like the best team by a mile I don't know a team that could actually keep that front line out and it's not just three of them it's five or maybe even six if you put we were talking earlier Marcus Turan he's a six striker there that scored nearly 20 goals in Inter last year.

56:00Are you including Cherki in your six by the way? Well no, seven. Cherki's cameos at this World Cup are fantastic aren't they? Just strutting about on the touchline comes on for five minutes barely runs does a few keepy uppies passes it to Mbappe. I mean I agree. I don't know anyone that can keep them out. I just think there's I can't see them not scoring against anybody. Mbappe looks amazing doesn't he? Tom there was an incident in one game when he literally chased back and made a tackle and I was like, if he's up for it.

56:29Gregor Robertson: And he's on record as saying he recognised he's got to do that for the team. And so, Ben, you really are. It's a different beast entirely. Now you're 11 against 11 everywhere on the pitch. Yeah. And I think back to actually in our preview show with some of the rest of the writers who were going out to the tournament, James Gearbrandt said, look, you can easily make the case that Mbappe with the way he's going is the greatest World Cup player ever just because of what he delivers. And this was before this tournament. I mean, you're looking at it now and Messi, absolutely the greatest of all time, et cetera.

56:57but Mbappe is unfathomably good. I just can't, we're watching him going, wow, every single thing he does.

57:03Gregor Robertson: It's the speed of everything they do and it's not just about if they've got space to run into and that kind of speed, which they can be like dizzyingly faster, but it's the speed of the link up player in the box and the fluidity and we were talking before, like there was that conversation in the first game about, oh, they swapped Alisi and Dembele and that, you know, Alisi's almost the star now because he's number 10. Dembele's just like, hold my beer. Well, if you play him in the right, no problem. or banging a hat-trick in 32 minutes. And the competition that they've all got too, when you've got Barcala, I love Barcala.

57:33Gregor Robertson: And he's not always starting. And you've got Dewey and the competition is just driving them on to extraordinary heights. So, like, unless they all, you know, it's hard to foresee a fall-off that's great enough for them to not reach the final. And with Argentina, just to wrap up, I'm going to be speaking to Paul Hurst, who's our man in the Argentina camp, hopefully in the coming days. but you think they've got better than four years ago? You think they look better? Yeah, I just think they've got more energy elsewhere on the pitch and I thought they were really impressed. It's not about Lionel Messi and how great he is.

58:07We've sort of seen it. I'm still amazed that he's doing what he's doing at 39 years old. You know, that is incredible in itself but they have energy elsewhere and younger players coming through.

58:18Gregor Robertson: They look like a team. They've got a unity. They have got that same sort of desire, like collective desire to do everything that sets Messi on a pedestal to win them the game and possibly the tournament again. And they know that that's what did it for them last time. And it was like the same sort of force behind them again. That's what it feels like. So they are a tough proposition. With the caveat that they haven't really faced a big test yet. But they're not going to. They're not going to until Colombia. Cape Verde, Egypt, Australia. Colombia probably. Switzerland or Algeria, Colombia or Ghana.

58:52See, the one big question is, is there's only... I mean, we talked about Ronaldo before, but when you watch Lionel Messi, I've never seen anybody be able to walk it in the game. And he walks in the midfield area, but suddenly comes to life in that area as well. That he always runs into the space. It's not like... If you walk as a forward, it's completely different. You've got to lose markers as a forward. You get marked by a full-back or a centre-half. But in midfield, he sees the space and just goes into it. And it's literally like, wow, he's there. And then creates. And he's still doing it at 39.

59:30It's just amazing. Oh, absolutely. God, I'm excited now, aren't you? Aren't you excited now? We've wrapped it all out. Oh, gosh, it's so exciting. We'll wrap it up there, though. Thank you very much for all your messages throughout this tournament so far. It's been great to hear from you all. And we've mentioned some questions earlier. If you've got any more, do send them in to me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. We'll keep reading them out as the tournament progresses. Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson, And thank you very much for joining me on this show. We will be back with another daily World Cup show tomorrow.

59:57We'll see you then.