WORLD CUP DAY 19: Paraguay stun Germany

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 19 of our daily World Cup shows and, well, shocks, shootouts and Brazil turning up the knockout stage really is up and running now. On today's show we'll discuss Paraguay's stunning upset of Germany on penalties, Brazil's last gas win against Japan and we'll hear from Paul Hirst with the Argentina Camp 2. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined for part one of today's show by the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson. Well, mate, listen, it's less than 24 hours from when me, you, Tony Cascarino were all back in the studio predicting all the round of 32 and I'm delighted to say that we've got the first two wrong.

0:45I think I'm pretty sure we ended up settling on Japan and Germany. Despite the fact that we said Brazil were decent and me and Tony, I think Tony Cascarino did pick Paraguay, but we outvoted him. There's a lesson. always listen to Tony Cascarino

1:00Gregor Robertson: and he was he was he was picking up the Paraguay goalkeeper as well and you know that proved to be to be very prescient too because what a performance and particularly in the penalty shootout yeah but I like Japan it wasn't a bad shout and we showed they showed us showed why you know it was they put in a really good I don't think we've disgraced ourselves I don't think we've disgraced ourselves there's nuance to all these things we'll come on to Japan against Brazil and what a fascinating game that was in a minute but let's start with Paraguay I were recording this not long after midnight. The game's just finished.

1:32A remarkable game in so many ways, so many things to cover. I think probably one of the key things to maybe start with is that that VAR call for the foul, or I don't really know what it was, the kind of brushing of sleeves on the Paraguay goalkeeper with the Germany player that ruled out Jonathan Tarr's goal. I'm assuming as a former player and former defender who didn't mind a bit of contact in the box, you're thinking that one's a little soft?

1:57Gregor Robertson: or are you going to surprise you? It's worse than that. It's not soft. It's just, it's pathetic. It's a nonsense. I mean, I don't know what else to say, Tom, to be brutally honest with you. Valdemar Anton kind of turned. That's all you need to say? He kind of turned in the box as the ball came over and brushed the goalkeeper, the goalkeeper fell on the floor, got back up and was still in a position to make the save. Like, there was absolutely nothing in that and it's a nonsense. If it was a German, I'd be feeling pretty aggrieved by that but I still actually would be feeling more embarrassed by how my team played.

2:30Yeah, absolutely. And let's get into that. I just wanted to set the stall out. I do think actually, we talked about it on today's show, but I'm not sure Jalal Jeyed had his best game as referee. Towards the end of it, it felt like he'd lost complete control. Jamal Musiala is probably very lucky to have stayed on the pitch as well with a slightly ridiculous tackle. But anyway, let's get into the game and what a brilliant defensive performance it was from Paraguay and Gil in the goal. what did you make of it? As I say we did tee it up myself and Tony Cascarino said look Germany are in for a scrap here and boy were we at least right on that one even if we didn't get the score right it was an amazing display of resilience wasn't it?

3:07Absolutely yeah

3:07Gregor Robertson: I mean the two centre-halves Canale and Gomez were just absolute warriors like it felt fitting that Canale was the one to dispatch the final penalty the winning penalty after all the madness and the chaos just in a penalty kicks but long before that yes it was clear from the off what their approach was going to be and then when they took the lead they doubled down on it and it was a great goal, it was a really really good goal a good combination with Almiron and Galarza out in the right to get the cross across for Nciso and a good header and as good as Paraguay were in terms of nailing their approach and being really solid defensively Germany were just awful awful awful awful mind-bendingly bad they've just no energy, no zip no anything nothing really, they showed nothing they had no, they didn't really look like they had any sort of coherent plan or strategy or any means of getting the ball forward that wasn't just throwing it into the box and ultimately that's what got them back in the game it was a good ball by Wurz and a crafty header by Havertz but it's just astonishing how how little Germany had in a creative sense and and it actually in a sort of energy just complete lack of energy as well it was it was really really striking yeah it was a remarkable performance I mean they've been poor this tournament I think the kind of group stage finish you know suggested things that were better than they really were when you watch those games in detail.

4:47It is an amazing record. Since winning the 2014 World Cup, Germany have failed to reach the round of 16 in their last three World Cup appearances. They've done group stage, group stage and now round of 32. They've only done a little bit better in the European Championships, reaching one semi-final since then. It is extraordinary to go from that World Cup glory. There's also another stat that I saw someone share on X that says that the World Cup winners in 2006, Italy, 2010 Spain and 2014 Germany have all failed to win a knockout tie since lifting the trophy which is absolutely crackers but of course Italy haven't barely been there I mean absolutely mad um stats like that when it comes to this Germany team it then breeds into the idea that they then lose their first penalty shootout in a World Cup does that play a part you know we've seen so often teams finding a way to win and then winning on penalties but even going into this game when going into the penalties sorry you didn't feel like Germany was suddenly going to win you felt like Paraguay were the favourites because they had the confidence in the way that they'd played yeah it's funny I mean

5:49Gregor Robertson: listen to the the commentary and it's like it's Germany and a penalty shootout we kind of it's almost like it was a foregone conclusion and then you saw Havertz doing his stuttering run-up and and it was one of the kind of I don't know the almost the cockiest saves I've ever seen in a penalty shootout by Olanda Gill they kind of he stands there and looks huge and he's clapping his hands and then he dived and just thrust up a hand really casually to palm it away, he could have palmed it as well it was brilliant and he thought he's confident here and that completely shifted the whole dynamic and then after Voltemar his miss as well, again another kind of stuttering, paused run up, this has been a bit of a theme of the tournament and it's not really working a lot of the time, another save and then Paraguay passed up two chances to win it, the drama was extraordinary and then Tad blazed it over the bar to give him a third opportunity to win it and Canale made no mistake and the scenes were brilliant more joyous scenes in the stands of tears and just absolute euphoria it was great to see and you kind of felt although they play really let's be honest negative football, like backs to the wall batting down the hatches hoped to take the lead and hold on to it and they managed to do that in a couple of games you still felt they deserved it because they did what they wanted to do, they set out to do and they did it better than their opponent and Germany obviously have a much more talented group of players but they didn't show it, they really didn't show it Musiala showed some gumption at the end and you're right, it almost spilled over into into kind of recklessness he was perhaps a little bit lucky to stay on the pitch but beyond that really Sani looks like a complete like an absolute shadow of the player Verts really you know he's trying things but very rarely were they coming off and he doesn't look like a£116 million player or whatever it is his transfer he was really really really poor Germany team and yeah I think you know we were drifting towards existential questions with Alisson the other night about England like this is full-blown existential crisis time for Germany now Yeah, I was going to say, I mentioned on the show yesterday that I'd got Konstantin Eckner, our German expert, to write two pieces about whether Germany are any good or not.

8:12I think we know now the answer to the question, no, they are not. But in those pieces, he's asked plenty of existential questions himself. We'll have to get him to write maybe a third piece at some point in this tournament on the Times website. and just on that Jonathan Tile miss I'm reminded of you and Tony Cascario talking about what penalty shootouts can do to people because watching it back I mean he genuinely looked like a player who'd never kicked a football in his life I mean it was remarkable for a very good and experienced player is that just nerves is that the pressure is it you shouldn't have been taking the sixth penalty like

8:43Gregor Robertson: yeah he looked he looked really tight I think it did look like pressure it looked like it looked really stiff and sort of inhibited so he was you know there was no freedom in the way he struck the ball at all and that was the result he was kind of seized up and pulled it over the bar so yeah that's what pressure can do and even if you are a player who is a defender for Bayern Munich and plays in some of the biggest games in Europe this is a World Cup knockout and you've got the weight of your entire nation on your shoulders in that one moment and you can understand why you feel the pressure but he didn't he didn't appear to deal with it very well yeah I think this game is also a reminder that we have a long way to go still in this World Cup there's lots and lots of things that can happen you know we had good fun mapping out who we think there may be some throwaway predictions on yesterday's show but I mean I've watched all the games Paraguay were not very good against USA they were ponderous against Australia in that draw they basically just played really really defensively understandably with 10 men against Turkey after taking the lead after two minutes and then they've done the same against Germany and they're into the round of 16.

9:56In remarkable fashion, because I think a lot of people would have been looking at it on paper going, ah, well, Paraguay aren't very good. But it's just a reminder, isn't it, how tough tournament football can be.

10:05Gregor Robertson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, looking through their squad and a lot of players playing at a good level in South America and Galarza, for all his kind of dark arts and his tussle with Musiala late on in extra time was actually a good player. He was really cool with his penalty kick, like ice through his veins for his penalty kick. As I said, he linked up really well with Almiron for the goal and he always offered something going forward on the left and had a good left foot. So they have like... Another thing, you know, if you think about how much I've spoken about Scottish woes, no one makes a mistake we kept shooting ourselves in the foot no one made an error that was really costly and if they did someone else would make up for it they looked like a real team very well organised really disciplined and very hard to break down and they're always finding a way to get a goal too so whoever they face next I think it could be France, is that right?

11:15Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I mean, that's going to be a whole new kind of test, but it'll be very interesting to see how long they can hold off that France forward line. Yeah, exactly. If France get past Sweden, then you could have Alise, Mbappe, Douay and all the rest going up against this Paraguay test. There will be nothing more challenging than that. But congratulations to Paraguay and all your fans who might be listening to this podcast. I hope you get some celebrations in before that round of 16 clash. You mentioned Scotland there, Gregor. maybe it was an extra kick in the teeth for Michael Grant because we've sent him to this game so maybe he was sat there thinking if only Scotland could have defended like Paraguay but he's just been in touch he's just been filing his copy and he sent me these thoughts from the ground Wow, what have we just seen?

11:57We have just seen Paraguay bring down the first of the big beasts at this World Cup Absolutely incredible, incredible game incredible conclusion to it we don't see Germany losing penalty shootouts but we just have. First time since 1976, the famous Panenka European Championship penalty shootout. But the story's Paraguay. I mean, they played a kind of rope-a-dope tactics. They just defended, they dug in, they sat in, they let Germany play around, play in front of them. They took the lead. It looked like we were going to see something truly remarkable and then Havertz equalised for Germany. We then had a VAR intervention right at the end.

12:40It looked like Germany had a good goal to me, but VAR intervened, saw a foul on the goalkeeper as the corner came in before Jonathan Tah headed it in extra time, which is total dominance by Germany in terms of possession their stats at the end of this game were ridiculous, nearly 800 passes over 300 in the final third, crosses, emptying crosses, emptying shots but still a kind of impotence about them, and they're down and they're out, I mean they're They're not like in Italy because they're still qualifying for tournaments, but they're just not making an impact anymore at World Cups Germany. And now the story is Paraguay.

13:21I mean, they're likely to play France in the next round. It'll be France or Sweden. We would think France will get through. I dare say Paraguay will play the same way. France have got more about them. But let's see. I mean, it's just one of these great stories you get at World Cups. Germany are out. Paraguay are through on penalties. Incredible. Michael Grant there wrapping up his tournament with that game if you're a timed subscriber make sure you subscribe to our World Cup newsletter Michael's done a really fun end of tournament wrap up from him and talked about the mad moment of being at the Portugal Colombia game and trying to report on that whilst also dealing with the breaking news of Steve Clarke resigning it's a privilege and a pleasure this job but it is also crackers sometimes so if you've got that newsletter keep an eye out in your email inboxes today let's move on Greg I guess to talk about the other game that has already happened so far this evening.

14:10It was another big game to come as well. You're wondering why I've not mentioned Netherlands against Morocco. I'll be chatting to Tom Olnot about that game in part two, so stick with us for that. But Brazil-Japan kicked us off, and it was a cracker, and probably the ultimate definition of a game of two halves. James Geerbrandt was there reporting on this for us and sent me these thoughts.

14:28Tom Allnutt: Well, it was a great match, one of the games of the tournament so far, possibly. Japan I thought played very well in the first half especially so when you consider that they were without three of their top players really Endo and Mitoma who were ruled out before the tournament and Takekubo who missed this match they played some great football I think putting Brazil under, really trying to hit Brazil in the transitions and obviously doing so to great effect with a goal by Sano at half time it really did feel like Brazil were in danger of being on the receiving end of what would have been a huge World Cup upset but I think Carlo Ancelotti obviously had a I think he had a fantastic game in terms of the changes that he made they all came off really the decision to and of course the change that wasn't which was to leave Casemiro on when I think a lot of people would have taken him off he was on a yellow and not playing well they stuck with the strategy of crossing the ball in but Ancelotti brought on Endrick at half time and then told Vinicius to hold a slightly wider position and I thought in the second half Brazil played what you would call very effective football you know it wasn't necessarily you know it wasn't necessarily always like watching Brazil but sorry Tram just going past in the background but i think they but it was very effective football they penned japan back in their own third and i thought uh denisius played really well again um it looks like he's really feeling it in this tournament and bruno guimaraes i thought was outstanding he really does you know he really is having an excellent tournament so brazil move on i still don't think that they're among the favorites i still think that you know france and argentina probably probably seemed to be a level above at the moment.

16:30Tom Allnutt: But Brazil just seemed to be building something. And if ever there was a game to validate Ancelotti's kind of extraordinary big game nowt, then this was it. Gregor, James there outlining how much of an enjoyable game he felt it was, and also quite rightly picking out the kind of mad, hot-take nature of modern football. At half-time, everyone's written off Casemiro. by the end he ends up man of the match and a pretty important part of Carlo Ancelotti's plan which fantastically for Brazil turns out it's just like watching Brazil is actually just like watching a League One team from back in the day with Vinicius on the wing get it wide and get it in the mixer

17:09Gregor Robertson: I know yeah it's like watching Brentford just get Tiago up front and it really would be yeah there were 12 crosses in the first half and 28 crosses in the second half like it's not Brazil like that's the reality this is not the Brazil that we know and are accustomed to I said that before the game, I said that particularly after watching them against Scotland, the idea that they would just sit off and allow us to have the ball, there might have been logic to it it's just not something you expect to see from a Brazil team and they're so passive without the ball, they were really really poor out of possession in the first half like terrible and Japan were the exact opposite.

17:55Gregor Robertson: They were tenacious and brilliant with their press and a real threat in those transitions when they won the ball back and clearly, although the goal came from that situation it was also a big mistake from Danilo a really loose pass inside and he was punished brutally. Japan were great in the first half I don't know whether they'll feel some sense of regret about, did they have to kind of sit so deep in the second half and try and soak up the pressure is that even fair? Do you give Brazil more credit for really taking the game to them in the second half? I think both things probably are a little bit true there and like also the manner of the goal that they conceded right to the death too, that came from a Tanaka mistake which was pretty rare and they were punished so yeah I feel a little bit sad for Japan to have gone out because they've gone out in really unfortunate circumstances for several tournaments in a row now in very fine margins and this is a nation that's really desperate to take another another step forward and they're not fine they're not kind of getting the rub of the green to do so so really sad to see them go out but Brazil yeah they're not Brazil.

19:18It's Carlo Ancelotti we'll come on to them in a second but I was just pondering the Japan thing and maybe it's my frustration at having decided to side with them in our predictions despite fancying Brazil to come good at some point under Carlo Ancelotti but you know can you be can you be disappointed in a dark horse I was pondering this earlier you know if dark or if you're a dark horse do you get a bit more bandwidth do you get a bit more space to let you let people down I was really disappointed with Japan in that second half and you know James highlights some of the players that are missing but you know in this tournament so far they've and such great energy, tenacity.

19:51It was so bizarre to watch them sit off. And yes, I agree, both things definitely are true. I think Brazil turned it up a notch. Vinicius was fantastic every time. He just kept going, give me the ball, give me the ball. I'm going to run at them, I'm going to scare them. But we have got this game now as well where you get a half-time team talk halfway through the half. And I thought, oh, right, well, Japan have got there now. They'll have a bit of a recheck. Gather everyone, we'll go. nothing they offered so little I just I was really disappointed in them and so as well as you being slightly disappointed for them I think I'm a little bit more pointing the finger at them and saying you got to take some responsibility for this because surely that's how they grow and get better as a nation in these big tournaments and big competitions they can't just be the dark horse forever who turns up and it's like oh poor Japan like there was the game was there they were brilliant in the first half, scored a fantastic goal.

20:46And yes, Brazil came back at them, but there has to be a counterpunch, doesn't there, if they're going to progress?

20:51Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, the one thing I would say is that they kind of, it was kind of relentless. You're right, when you've got the wide players that Brazil have and they stayed wide and then later in the game Martinelli came in as a kind of sort of, and Endrick came on at half time, you've almost got four wingers on your forward line. on the pitch and it's hard not to be pinned back in when that's that kind of that forward line is pinning you back in and it came the goal came from Gabriel the centre half stepping right in almost into Japan's third to put in that cross to the back post and those crosses to the back post there was another one earlier in the half that they almost scored from which was like a miracle that they didn't actually I think that was Casemiro again those crosses of the back post are really hard to defend against and again this is the kind of thing that you're just you're willing to give Carlo Ancelotti the credit for because he's Carlo Ancelotti like it's not just put the crosses in the box guys it's get towards the back post where we can get we can be dominant and get the ball back across goal and that happened so many times in the second half that you feel that was a ploy so you know this is the thing about Brazil.

22:12Gregor Robertson: Well, they don't look like Brazil. They also have Carlo Ancelotti and that's we don't know. We know that the value of that has been in the club football. This is the first time we're seeing it in international football. I think we're already seeing although it's been a bit I don't know. It's not been what we've expected perhaps. We're seeing its value. We're seeing that he kind of knows how to win games and it may not be the way you expect it. Yeah, it's find a way to win it's that old cliche I used to think it should be attributed just to Real Madrid but I've realised it's Carlo Ancelotti that's the guy he actually it's all about finding a way to win discussed it with Ian Whittle earlier in the tournament about how this team looks quite like a lot of his Real Madrid teams not all that convincing all the time but with some star players and they always end up at the end of the game for the victors Brazil going through you mentioned Gabriel there I'm really fascinated by Ivory Coast Norway tomorrow that could be really tight but I now want Norway to win because I want Haaland v Gabriel on a World Cup stage.

23:11We see it in the Premier League all the time. You want it in an international stage don't you? That's the perfect end to their seasons they respectively. City the Arsenal going head to head and then Gabriel and Haaland going head to head for Brazil against Norway. Sorry Ivory Coast I've changed my mind on that one. We'll leave it there Gregor. Thank you very much for joining me for part one of this show. In part two I'll be hearing from Tom Allnut at Netherlands v Morocco and I'll be chatting to Paul Hurst about Argentina too. We'll be back after this break.

23:51Tom Allnutt: If you like football, you'll love The Upshot, a podcast about the scandalous antics of the biggest names in sport. Join award-winning journalists Jack and Zach as we spill untold tales of drunken disasters, dressing room scraps and romantic adventures. From FIFA's threats to sue us to the real reason Chelsea sacked Thomas Tuchel, if there's drama off the pitch, it's on The Upshot. Just search for The Upshot Podcast, your guide to the funniest stories in sport.

24:27Welcome back to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clark and let's wrap up the rest of the overnight action. I've got to be honest, if you decided to go to bed rather than watch Netherlands-Morocco, well played. It was not a cracker. It was heading towards a Netherlands win. Issa Diop got a late, late equaliser running off the back of Virgil van Dijk. Extra time was a complete procession heading towards penalties and there were some more absolute shockers in this shootout. Morocco finishing winners 3-2 on pens in the end not a load of great penalties but some remarkable scenes actually definitely worth checking the highlights out but you definitely if there's anyone actually out there who did stay up and watch this on UK time please do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk anyway that's enough waffle from me thankfully we had a man more alert and awake in the stadium Tom Allnut was there for us and he sent me these thoughts after the game.

25:30Tom Allnutt: Hi Tom, yeah what a game, I'm just walking back around the stadium here at Stadio Monterrey and maybe in the background you can still hear the sort of Moroccan fans cheering and shouting and a real sort of carnival atmosphere honestly. I mean we're walking around and it's the brutal nature isn't it of kind of the World Cup, Dutch fans sort of kids in tears and just next to them you know grown Moroccan men sort of chanting and skipping and jumping and I mean that is what it is um amazing match honestly like a sort of real kind of wild night um it wasn't the best quality game in truth i mean for a long time it kind of looked like it was destined for extra time and penalties after a nil nil draw and then i think when cody gacbo scored that goal it sort of to me anyway it felt like a winning moment you know it was uh it felt like the kind of game where only a goal might win it and uh you know it was a it was a really poignant moment for him you know after a week of real personal tragedy you could tell you know he was almost overwhelmed I think by the emotions at that moment and as I say it felt like it was going to be the winner but it wasn't to be Morocco just wouldn't lie down you know and he said do your heads in in uh in added time there wasn't really much in it in penalties a brilliant Verbruggen save um an extra time and Somerville as well went through and nearly scored but there was a fantastic tackle and then to penalties and it was probably one of the worst penalty shootouts I mean, it hasn't been a good day for penalties today.

26:54Tom Allnutt: And this was another display of, I don't know, lack of technique, lack of practice, not sure. But they all seem to be sort of dragging it left, hitting crossbars, hitting posts. I guess it's just the nerves, isn't it? It's professional footballers. You expect to be able to deliver that kind of skill just under that pressure, suddenly turn into human beings. And of course, it's Mel Saibari, you know, stepping up for the winner and tucks it away just to continue what has been a brilliant tournament for him. And Morocco are at it again. You know, it feels like, in truth, I feel like they deserved it.

27:27Tom Allnutt: You know, I thought they were the more attacking team. I think there'll be a lot of questions for Ronald Koeman now about the way he set his team up in this tournament. You know, I think tonight was another kind of example of quite some defensive, pragmatic football from the Dutch team. I don't think they like that. I don't think this has been a good tournament for Koeman. I think it's probably the end of the road for him. But for Morocco, they keep going, you know, and after that brilliant run in Qatar four years ago, it feels like they're capable maybe of another maze run here i mean they've got a tough uh tough quarter final possibly against france um but you never know you know they've got good players they play with speed they've got athletes and they've got a guy up front who's scoring goals so um let's see another fantastic night for for african teams in this tournament and uh i love it i think morocco brings so much to the world cup and and i think it's great for the tournament they've got through.

28:18Tom Allnutt: So that's it from here in Mexico. I'm going to dash to the press conferences now and I'll leave you guys to try and make a bit more sense of it than I have. Tom Allnut there reporting on Morocco's win, a big win for them and a big win for Africa as well to keep one of their strong nations in this competition. Some big teams going through then, some big teams crashing out, but the holders, Argentina, looking pretty, pretty good in the group stages. I caught up with our man Paul Hurst, who's been with the Argentina team for the whole tournament and he says the Argentina fans and the press are feeling pretty confident that their team can go all the way once again.

28:54Hurstie, thanks for joining me. You had one of the last games of the group stage, a comfortable win for Argentina, a much-changed Argentina against Jordan, although Lionel Messi's still coming off the bench to get a goal. I like how he seems to be strolling through this tournament to the point now where he is literally just passing the ball into the net, even if it's a free kick and he's got a wall and a goalkeeper in front of him. Quite bizarre and remarkable scenes. What did you make of that game just to catch us up with Argentina's progress through the group stage? Yeah, even when he's not shooting, he's walking.

29:27This is walking football, Lionel Messi style, but it is productive. Six goals in three games. There's been, let's be fair, there's been a couple of instances where the goalkeeper's not covered himself in glory that was the case the other night against Jordan. The keeper had already kind of committed himself before Messi had even taken his free kick. But yeah, he was only on the pitch for half an hour. It was a chance for Scaloni to make a lot of changes to get a lot of minutes in the legs of the fringe players who've been desperate to play. And one thing about this World Cup is the matches are so staggered, or they were in the group stages, that these players weren't even...

30:11You know, there were six days between the games, so they were just not getting a game for nearly three weeks, basically. So they were happy to get on the pitch. People like Nico Paz played very well in the Messi number 10 role. Ezekiel Palacios played at right back. He's a central midfielder. He played very well, very aggressive. Jordan, obviously not an amazing team, so it wasn't a real test, and it was a dead rubber for both teams, so it was kind of a bit like a friendly, really, but when you've got that 100 % record, it really does wonders for your confidence going into knockout stages. You look at some of the other teams that have stuttered through this group stage, like Portugal, Belgium, etc.

30:58That will have an impact on their confidence, but Argentina have just been at it from the get-go. So yeah, they're all very confident at the moment. Yeah, we'll come on to that confidence later on because it's looking pretty ominous, I think in terms of mapping out the routes to the final for various teams but just in this game, so much of the narrative has to be about Lionel Messi, of course it does but you wrote a piece after this game about some of the players around him stepping up and your belief that maybe there is one player who's now made his case that he should be playing alongside Messi over some others, who's that?

31:34That's Lautaro Martinez for so many tournaments, so many years, I've never really thought I've never really known how good he is, Lautaro Martinez I just thought, is he one of those players that really gets a lot of hype when he doesn't deserve it? Certainly in the last World Cup, he was pretty poor he didn't score in any of his performances and in fact, it was the decision to take him out of the team and put Julio Alvarez in the team that actually benefited Argentina and gave them that extra kind of push that rectified the mistakes of the Saudi Arabia defeat and then pushed them on to victory, that and bringing Enzo Fernandes in the team.

32:12And then, yeah, Lautaro, he played very well the other night, scored his penalty, took it very well. And from that moment on, you could tell he was just a monkey off his back because that was his first World Cup goal and he was taking pot shots from 25 yards after that. And I just didn't see that from him in the first two games. and if you look at Alvarez, there was one pass that he made through ball that Filos Celso, I think it was, who scored but he was offside. But other than that, he didn't really do anything, Alvarez. He looked a bit off the pace, really. I don't know whether this talk of the Barcelona transfers getting to him, but he just didn't really see him with it and for that reason, I could just see Scaloni sticking with Lautaro for the rest of the tournament.

32:57Yeah, interesting one, isn't it, about how transfers, rumours and talk might play a part, but it's about the only distraction that this Argentina team have got. Cape Verde up next, the kind of great David and Goliath clash, this one, the holders against the team, the underdog team of the tournament so far. I mean, how's that gone down in the Argentina camp? You know, you've told us so much already in this tournament in both the Times newsletter and on this podcast about, you know, you getting to live it through Argentina eyes, really, aren't you? Me and Gregor have bought our Cape Verde shirts.

33:27We're fully behind them. But, I mean, how has this tie gone down with the Argentina camp? Are they thinking, ah, book in the park? Scotsman going against Argentina, that's Korea first, hasn't it? Yeah, there's, well, inevitably, Scaloni was asked about it the other night, and he said, yeah, we can't underestimate them. And he was quite forceful when he said it, you know, and he was pointing out that they caused Spain trouble, caused Uruguay problems as well. So he's going to say that, isn't he? But, you know, they are going to be overwhelming favourites. It's just a case of not allowing that complacency to creep in.

34:08And then, obviously, look at the knockout games that have come so far. I've just been watching that Japan-Brazil match. And I know Japan are on a completely different level to Cape Verde, but it was a shock. This has been a World Cup where we've seen plenty of shocks so far. So Argentina, the coaches will be telling the players that, reminding them of that this week, just to make sure that they are prepared for what's to come. But they'll be overwhelming favourites and that's for a reason. You mentioned Scaloni there. He's a fascinating character in that he very cleverly, slightly flies under the radar, I think, for a lot of neutral fans.

34:49he obviously has the gargantuan task of managing Argentina as holders at the World Cup and you know Argentina in terms of football fever is right up there with some of the biggest nations in the world what's he like in press conferences you know I always think it's fascinating for me as an editor and for listeners to hear you guys sit in these rooms with people how does he manage it what's it like is it fevered is there hundreds of people asking him baying for questions about Messi are you going to win it again is the pressure really on is he a cool character he's one of the most chilled coaches I've ever come across in this job, particularly when it comes to World Cups.

35:25And like you say, it's such a huge job. There's so much pressure on it. You know, Argentina fans, the population, they live for World Cups. You just have to see how many people have come over here. They've been following the team and they're literally hundreds of thousands. I mean, I got into Miami yesterday, so I've not had a chance to get around much, but apparently this has been the epicentre for all the Argentina fans throughout the World Cup. Wherever I've been, Kansas City, Dallas, they've been there in numbers. They've been represented, I'd say, 80%, 90 % of the crowd in all the games that they've had so far.

36:02So it's remarkable that he does stay so calm, under pressure. I think that comes, obviously, with the experience of winning a World Cup, of having the trust of his players. he's kept quite a large majority of the players that were in the last squad in the squad for this time as well so he trusts the players, he knows what they're capable of and vice versa so it's that kind of bond that they've got that kind of trust that they have between each other that really makes them such a tight unit and that's another reason why he's so relaxed if they were to go 1-0 down you wouldn't see him pacing around and banging a chair or kicking a bucket or anything like that.

36:46He would be completely zen about it because he knows what's required in certain circumstances. So he's very, very relaxed. The other reason he might be relaxed, Erste, is that he's maybe been playing the Times World Cup predictor and plotting Argentina's route to the final and realising it's basically a shoo-in. I mean, I've done it maybe 10 times. Maybe 10 times and I can't not get Argentina to the final. You know, they've got Cape Verde and every game is tough and there are shocks along the way, but it could be Cape Verde. It could then be Egypt. It could then be Colombia, who I think are a very good team and will give them a good game.

37:20But you'd say Argentina are favourites. It could maybe be England in the semi-final if England book their ideas up. But even then, I mean, is there an expectation amongst the Argentina fan base and the press pack that you're with that actually the route does favour them reaching the final at the very least? yeah I think they to be honest they were so they've got so much belief in the team that I think they would have backed them to get to the final regardless but this draw now is just incredible isn't it if you've got Cape Verde then you're probably looking at Egypt or Australia aren't you and then to be fair Colombia will pose them a threat if they beat them in the quarter finals but because there's obviously a little bit of history there they play each other quite a lot so they know what's each of their strengths etc but But compare that to, I mean, we're all looking forward to a quarterfinal between Messi and Ronaldo, weren't we?

38:12Portugal were going to be the quarterfinal opponents if Portugal had topped their group, but they didn't, obviously. So that brings along the idea that they can play. Is it Colombia, Algeria, Switzerland, and someone else? I can't remember. So is it Ghana, maybe? I don't know. Yeah, Ghana, yeah. But yeah, you back Argentina to beat any of those four, certainly. And then even when it comes to the semifinals, I'd love England to go all the way, but for me, they've not been that impressive. And Brazil just scraping through there against Japan, they would be the other two semi-final opponents. And I just think Argentina had beat them.

38:52They certainly fancy the chances of beating them. Really interesting. It could well be a rerun of Messi v Mbappe in the final. That's certainly how it looked when we mapped it out on the game podcast with Tony Cascarino and Gregor Oatesman. But listen, we also said Japan would win, so what the hell do we know? yeah it was pretty close it was pretty close but listen it's an unforgiving game this prediction business thirsty and i'm sure we will hear from you again paul hirst thank you very much for joining me on today's episode of the game podcast world cup daily shows thank you too to gregor robertson and the rest of our times team who joined me earlier in the show we will be back with another episode tomorrow we will see you then Thank you.