WORLD CUP DAY 21: Harry Kane rescues England

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 21 of our daily World Cup shows and England are through to the round of 16 but only just. 2-1 winners against DR Congo thanks to two brilliant comeback goals from Harry Kane. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm joined today by the football writer and Times columnist James Gheerbrant and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson. But first, let's get some reaction from Atlanta. Matt Lawton is part of the Times team covering the game and he sent me this report just after full time. Well, that was as torturous an England performance as you'll see.

0:41Harry Kane, absolute legend. Somehow, the power he produced from that header to equalise from Gordon's cross and then just an extraordinary winner. Three Congo players around him somehow created the space. Absolutely brilliant. that goal takes him above Pele with 13 international goals I think it's 72 for this season which is, I don't even think players like Cristiano Ronaldo manage that England, look, they need to improve Mexico's going to be such a difficult game I think Tuka's got a massive problem at right back now Jed Spence just doesn't look like the right player one can only hope from England's perspective that either James or Quanta comes back Perhaps he has to think differently.

1:28Perhaps he looks at Rice in that role as well. I thought he was brilliant when he came on. Tuchel's changes, again, decisive. He's proved himself a brilliant manager under pressure. But again, that England performance overall was, I think, disappointing. Just showed great spirit in the end. Got there. But now comes the real test for me. Mexico in the Azteca. That's going to be such a tough game. only four days to prepare but England go on. James, Matt Lawton summing things up pretty nicely there I've got to say. You've seen some great knockout games, you've seen some great group stage games in fact which we'll discuss later on in part two.

2:09What did you make of England's win? Well I think we've all come down a bit from the high of the Croatia game haven't we? I don't think anyone is feeling as good about england as we were three matches ago and and where i really agree with matt is i think tuchel's squad selection has has got us into a bit of trouble which we can talk about later but performance wise i mean obviously you know matt matt was there matt was at the game you know so take my take my view from a from a dallas english themed pub with a with a pinch of salt but um i didn't think england played that badly i thought they played quite well i mean we all know that tournament football is so so conditioned by you know the state of the game and you know it's it's very easy to play well in a group game where you score first and you know in torn in a knockout game where you concede early and you're kind of staring elimination it's a very different kettle of fish i although inside we were probably all feeling like it was iceland 2016 all over again or even like it was you know a bit a bit like slovakia at the last euros for me i thought the performance was much you know was was a far cry from those games i thought england basically created a lot of good chances you know and pesi clearly had himself a day in the congo goal he was brilliant england kind of kept going created in the end i think over sort of 2.1 xg i was actually a little surprised it wasn't even a bit higher than that i'm actually more worried about england's defense and how kind of vulnerable they look in certain kind of defensive situations than i am about their attack i thought the attack was fine you know it's a game of like patience isn't it and just you know keeping going and i thought they did that pretty well.

4:05Gregor, listen, with Alison Rudd at Wimbledon, James Gearbrand has slotted into the Alison Rudd slightly contrarian take role beautifully, hasn't he? Let's be honest, he's stormed in, he's put a marker down, he said, next time Rudd skips town, I'm right here for you guys. What did you think, Gregor? Let the Scotsman have his say. Dire? Awful? Not bad?

4:26Gregor Robertson: I mean, for the first half an hour, I thought it was dire, yeah. I thought it was inhibited, it was listless, it was shorn of ideas, it was one-dimensional, it was all those things and it was Iceland 2016 vibes for me and as actually as the game kind of progressed and the keeper kept making save after save he thought yeah this could be another Iceland and I was wondering where it would rank in that sort of list of ignominy. So look Harry Kane got you out of jail I think if he hadn't come up with those two moments then that would be the conversation that would be the way that this conversation would be framed because Hamza tweeted something after the game that England crossed the ball 38 times and I don't think they had any other ideas, it was just swinging and cross after crossing at the box and some of them were woeful and a few of them were decent and Bellingham got on the end of one or two, the header in the 30th minute stoked the embers a little bit, the one that Mpazi saved brilliantly down I think it was down to his right that was a great that was a moment that sort of got England going a little bit between then and the end of the half but I think there were even a spell in the second half where they again looked really really kind of lethargic and until the kind of until the hydration break and then Thomas Tuchel was really like very animated and you know must have been laying it out that this is your last chance guys and And you did see more.

6:01Gregor Robertson: And undoubtedly, you just watch the game again and you think, Bukai Osaka's on the pitch. A world of new possibilities opens up. It's just a totally different game when he's on the pitch. The way that when he's running at a defender, it's just a totally different feel to what happens when Madueke's running at a defender. You feel that he can go both ways, but he can also just link up blink play and he can drive inside. And he's just much more imaginative, basically. And that's not a real criticism of Madueke. kept trying and trying and trying and some things came off, some things didn't but you just realise that in these clutch moments you've still got like, you know after recent games it's been Bellingham, Bellingham, Bellingham, Harry Kane again, he's an absolute legend but Bissaka again, I think he changed the game a bit for England and those three guys rice if he's fit, you have people who step up in those moments, I thought actually Elliot Anderson did towards the end, he had a couple of surge in runs and the way he played Bellingham through for the passage of play that led to the goal was just a moment of like taking responsibility.

7:06Gregor Robertson: That's what you need. You need people who are going to take responsibility and risk when all the weight of pressure is on top of you. And it took so long for England to do that. Yeah. You pick up a lot of themes there that I want to come back to and some players in certain positions. But Johnny Northcroft's match report has just gone live on the Times website. This is the intro. He writes, With the great ones, the thing is you know what is coming. And Harry Kane is a great one. England's Michael Jordan, certainly the best footballer to represent the country since 1966. The rest of the team, the doubts that whispered after Ghana and spoke louder after Panama came screaming at you at the Atlanta Stadium as by hook, crook and Harry, Thomas Tuchel's team somehow made it to the last 16 of the World Cup.

7:48I must say, James, I've been slightly flippant with my cheeky response to your thoughts on the game. I'm probably at the slightly advanced Slovakia stage in terms of my assessment I was watching this thinking advanced advanced Slovakia stage it's quite a spectrum beyond Slovakia I'm not quite I'm nowhere near Iceland I was watching it thinking listen they're creating chances it was close to Iceland mate no I think I think it was I think I was going like I thought it would be Drew Bellingham equaliser an extra time is what I thought I agree the first half was bad and I actually thought after half time as you say Gregor before the interval mid-half interval in the second half, England actually got worse and then they got better again.

8:27But listen, let's talk about one thing that I'm sure we can all agree on. Harry Kane, as you mentioned there, Gregor, and as Johnny introdes in his piece. He scored 10 goals across his 11 major tournament knockout stage appearances. That's three more than any other European player in the same period. Kylian Mbappe is next with seven. Kane is also the first England player to score twice in a World Cup knockout stage match since Gary Lineker against Cameroon in the 1990 quarterfinals. James you know you've seen some of these great players at this World Cup Kylian Mbappe you've seen Vinicius seen Erling Haaland this was Harry Kane being on that level dragging England through wasn't it the header as Matt Lawton said managing to generate the power and the positioning to get it in the bottom corner and that second goal I mean yesterday on yesterday's show me and Greg I spent 20 minutes waxing lyrical about Michael Alise and Kylian Mbappe and I opened by asking Gregor is there anything left to say about these two players harry kane is a man that you've written about a lot have you got anything left to say about harry kane no he's just he's just clutch isn't he like i mean as johnny i completely agree with johnny's match report he's you know the best england player since this i mean of my lifetime which is all i can really you know go on it was it was nice to see him have a moment of you know where he really just like produced an absolute screaming finish that sort of made you go, wow, because I think often in major tournaments, you know, he's sort of just got that knack and you sort of go away from it thinking, well, you know, he just finds himself in the right place and he's just, you know, he's got that ability.

10:02But for him to sort of offer a reminder of the fact that he is actually an unbelievable technician, you know, as good a ball striker as there probably is in world football, really, I thought it was, you know, it was nice for him to have that moment. It's interesting that you compare him with those other great names. I think that we've obviously talked a lot about how, you know, it's the World Cup of Messi and Mbappé and Haaland. But I think what's really interesting is that all those three players in particular, Messi, Mbappé and Haaland, are all quite limited really in their sort of contribution to overall play.

10:43I would almost argue that, I mean, it's hard to say Cade is more important to England and messiest to Argentina, isn't it? But his all-round contribution, I think, is almost greater because as well as being the absolute clutch guy, the world-class, dependable star that you can count on to put the ball in the back of the net, he also makes quite a big contribution to England's all-round play. He can drop into those number 10 positions and play good passes as well. Gregor Harry Kane, more than on a level with some of those superstars that we've mentioned at this tournament, really delivering for England.

11:20He is an absolute superstar, isn't he?

11:22Gregor Robertson: He is, yeah. And, you know, just I think since he's completely switched to Bayern Munich and, you know, gone up another level, I think the sort of global renown is sort of a sword as well. And his reputation is up there with those guys. And I think that's where he always wanted to be. And he always felt he should be testing himself and trying to put himself up with those kind of players among the best in the world. And he just keeps coming up with moments and he keeps delivering on when either his team or his country needs it most. And the second goal was just outstanding. It was like to turn and to move the ball into that little kind of pocket of space that was just in front of and in between the full-back and the centre-half where almost neither of them were really committing to coming out and closing him down and stopping him from getting a shot off and whipping it with such force in that motion into the top corner.

12:24Gregor Robertson: It was just like the symmetry of it all was just absolutely perfect. There was no, you know, it was very hard to turn and get a shot away there. He's marked so well for a lot of the game by Twanzebi. Twanzebi was brilliant. And that one moment, he just found the pocket of space that no one was really sure. It was their responsibility to go out and close them down and he punished them ruthlessly. It was an absolutely magnificent moment. I think one other kind of framing that's kind of interesting to put on Kane is from an England point of view, I think it's been very rare, again, certainly in my lifetime, it feels like all the really top players England have had have been at their best for England at major tournaments in the first half of their career.

13:09you know you think of players like David Beckham Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney obviously the really really obvious ones who were sort of at their best probably at their first couple of major tournaments and then never you know touch those heights again Frank Lampard is brilliant at Euro 2004 and then you know probably again that was his best major tournament he didn't you know didn't get any better for England Kane is the one really who stands out as someone who has got better and better and better he's been he's a more complete player and he's been able to translate that completeness to his performances in an england shirt past the age of 30 he's got better and better and better and that is a bit of an anomaly for recent kind of you know world-class level england players who have tended to get worse at major tournaments basically from a kind of high bar to get worse yeah England will certainly be hoping he keeps getting better at this tournament as we're recording this show actually Sam who's a listener has just emailed me in saying that given the total reliance that England have on Harry Kane he thinks that maybe it's time to start a campaign to change the national anthem to God save the Kane rather than God save the King I think there might be an idea in there you never know Sam if England keep going and if Harry Kane keeps scoring and they're the positives let's come back to some of the points that Matt made and that some of you two guys that you've touched on there one thing which is more of a kind of broader thing we're four games in now and so much was made about this thomas tuchel squad two players for every position etc etc i'd say this is fairly unique james you're just talking about you know other similarities with other tournaments i'm not sure england have ever been in such a position where we've got no idea what the best team is other than the fact that declan rice is vital jude bellingham is the 10 and Harry Kane is the world-class striker basically every other position on the pitch is up for grabs isn't it especially now the problems are right back Anthony Gordon and Marcus Rashford both seem to be better off the bench you know it feels like one of them has to play 60 minutes okay and then the other one will come on and do brilliantly as Anthony Gordon did with two assists for these goals I mean is that a problem Gregor at this stage or you know it's tournament football you just roll with the punches and find a way to win doesn't really matter I think both things can

15:29Gregor Robertson: be true there Tom excellent lovely ding ding ding no I mean like ultimately your last statement there is the truth this is knockout football and you find any way you can to win but it's far from ideal that you don't know who your right back is you certainly don't know who's going to be going into the next game against Mexico and yes I mean I think it's less of an issue about the wide players than some people like I don't think it has to be nailed on it's fine that there's not much between Rashford and Gordon and you can choose one or other depending on the opponent or who's, I don't know, who's been really good in training, who the manager ultimately, who decides, feels is the most deserving of the place.

16:07Gregor Robertson: That's okay. The other side, we know who should be playing, but he's not fit. And you see how crucial it is that Saka is fit and firing at his best. And you could say the same about Rice. He's a warrior, but he's not in the best shape. I think we can tell that. And he was kind of cramping up towards the end, despite going to right back and doing a job. I think the same is true for Saka though. There was a point where I think he turned his man and there was open field in front of him and he checked back and you're like, that is a guy that's not prepared to like put the afterburners on and sprint full tilt.

16:41He's not fully fit. So I just don't, I'm not sure England are going to get that from Bukayo Saka. I mean, on the right back situation, is there any, anyone think in a world that Declan Wright starts at right back against Mexico facing Julian Quinones, one of the players of the tournament so far, scored a brilliant goal against Ecuador. We'll talk a bit more about Mexico in a second. But do England lose so much by taking Rice out of that central area? James? I mean, I want to talk about the right back situation a bit because I mean, I'm a big admirer of Thomas Tuchel. I think he's a great manager.

17:14I think, you know, he's of the highest class, but I do not understand the situation that he's got himself into with the squad that he selected. he had Rhys James obviously is the first choice right back I think that's fair he's a great player but he obviously has his well documented fitness issues and you've got yourself in a situation where the backup right back who played here is a guy who played for the team that nearly got relegated last season and finished 17th playing mostly at left back not at right back playing with a broken jaw like I mean is it any wonder that he didn't look very good But I mean, you know, come on.

17:56Like I know, and this is nothing personal against Jed Spence, by the way. He's a good player. But like I cannot conceive of a legitimate argument for that situation being preferable to having Trent Alexander on or the Zubak up right back. I know he's not a perfect player and that he has some, you know, his defensive side of his game is not as good as the attacking side of his game. but he's not a bad defender in a back four. He really isn't. There was a season when Liverpool finished with the fewest goals conceded in Europe and he played every game in a back four. Come on, the guy is not a terrible defender.

18:36Gregor Robertson: And as you saw cross after cross going into the stands or out for a goal kick or out for it, you think, you did cross your mind, my goodness. If your strategy is, let's get loads of crosses into the box, it'd be quite good to have like one of the best delivery takers of a you know sorry delivery of a cross in world football basically in your side in a moment like this and it feels even more inexcusable and incomprehensible to be in this situation where you know 10 years ago the norm was for it to be a 23-man squad now managers have three extra places at their disposal how have we ended up in this situation where of course and not everyone appreciates and understands the value of having good glue guys, good squad men, good travellers in the party.

19:24But come on, you can't tell me that Jordan Henderson is adding more value to this England team than Trent Alexander-Arnold would be if he had that 26th place. You can't tell me that Dan Byrne is adding more value than Trent Alexander-Arnold would be. Come on.

19:37Gregor Robertson: I totally agree. One thing I would say is I actually would have still picked Jed Spence. I would have taken him ahead of Liveramento. and partly because Livermanto is almost as injury prone as Rhys James so when you hang your hat on someone the backup's got to be reliable and that's what is also I'd even broaden that a bit you know the whole there was a lot of there's a lot of sound logic and reasoning behind him you know picking guys who he thinks are going to be solid citizens and like is Cole Palmer going to be happy sitting on the bench is he going to be someone who's fitting into his vision of turning England into a Premier League team but when you're only two options on the right really are Saka who's nowhere near fit and then Madueke I think he's left himself short there too They're quite similar players as well There's not a real point of difference I think Saka is better than Madueke so you have that I guess but if Saka was the starter and you're bringing Madueke on There's just been too many of these issues if Rhys James Rhys James is injured and Saka's injured.

20:47Gregor Robertson: The right flank is a massive drop-off collectively. And that was always quite foreseeable because Saka entered the tournament injured. Rhys James entered the tournament with a terrible injury record. So I just feel that to not take Trent, to not take a Palmer or someone else who is like a bit of a superstar and has actually, Palmer actually did deliver in the Euros. He's came on and scored in the final. to not do either of those things just leaves you it's extraordinary it leaves you with Jed Spence and Nonny Madueke as your right flank I don't think that's anywhere near England's best right flank yeah it understandably will be the question that fans and journalists keep asking Thomas Tuchel but the squad is what it is so I mean there was head shaking at the idea of Declan Rice at right back our pal Tony Cascarino was on TalkSport bigging it up before this game actually so kudos to him that this was actually the solution that Thomas Tuchel went to and he got a bit of stick about it as well actually we should see and he was right Cass loves a bold prediction listen he said Paragra were winning on Monday didn't he Gregor we should have listened to him before we picked Germany but I mean what do we think the solution is the question I posed at the top was England don't know their best team I thought Eze looked half decent off the bench but I don't know whether this squad is full of a load of players that actually look half decent off the bench when England are playing a bit crap like you can't you need some kind of it's all well having a squad packed with finishers but where you start us Thomas you know what what is the solution if you think in Rice and Anderson does Konza start a right back as I say we're going to talk a bit about Mexico in a second but Julian Quinones looks like a man possessed on that left wing for Mexico you know he's big he's physical he's quick they play the ball in over the top every single time whoever plays right back has got a proper game on their hands who's playing Gregor?

22:29Gregor Robertson: Well look the issue is part of the issue is that Thomas Tuchel has also kind of leaned towards having playing one or the possibility of playing one defender who will tuck in and almost make a back three and so you're going to have one of your fullbacks who's more courageous, shall we say, in possession. So I think playing Nico O 'Reilly on the left and Jed Spence on the right in this game was a bit too much to say it was bold when you were playing DR Congo and you expect to win the game. But it was braver than a lot of people who were trying to predict the team or call what the team selection was going to be.

23:02Gregor Robertson: It was bolder than anyone thought. So there's also an argument that Jed Spence is your best 1v1 defender in those situations. so if he's coming up against someone who has got pace and is having a really good tournament, you just wonder where his mind's at now because you can drown out the noise to a certain extent but you'll know that he's at his opportunity and people are this is a big issue now and people are talking about should he be playing in the team, he's not really done the job and you can see there was that moment in the second half when Tuchel was berating him on a touchline I don't know whether that was about just leaving Madueki in a 1v1 situation against the fullback as opposed to getting and round them and crowding out the space.

23:40Gregor Robertson: I'm not entirely sure, but he was really going at them. And there's been a few of those occasions. You just feel that he doesn't really trust them. And to be brutally honest, I come back to it. You look around the England team and I think there are a number of players who, either it's new to them or they're just not really, really stepping up under this. What we should acknowledge is extraordinary pressure. but not stepping up to the extent of the match winners. It is a conundrum. If you're asking me, I think personally, Spence is still your best option given the opponent and also given the fact that you don't have any other alternatives.

24:24Not Konza. James, thoughts just very quickly before we go to a break. I would be tempted to go for Konza but obviously that very much depends on how fit John Stones is but I think if you go Konza, Stones, Gay, O 'Reilly as your back four, and that means that, you know, Rice can stay in central midfield. Yeah, I just think after this game, I would just have a bit more confidence in Konza as the right back. He's obviously a bit more of a defensive option. Yeah, I'd have a bit more confidence in him personally as the right back than Spence if it's a kind of decision between those two. Yeah, really interesting.

25:01A couple of days to debate it before the weekend. If you've got views on who England should play all that performance against DR Congo do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk we're going to take a quick break we'll be back to chat about Mexico and some of James' tournament highlights just after this

25:31Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times These are our daily World Cup shows, and I'm Tom Clark, and I'm joined by Gregor Robertson and James Geerbrandt. England then, facing Mexico, in Mexico, at 1am on Monday morning. Everyone's going to want to stay up overnight now, aren't they, eh? They left me all alone for two weeks. Everyone will be joining me now. Oh, I'll be up. I'll stay up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fine. Finally ready to join the party. If you'd stayed up last night, you would have seen Mexico beat Ecuador. a very very impressive performance we'd said on Monday's show Gregor that I thought they had the easiest group so I wasn't really prepared to commit how good they were but my gosh the first half they absolutely blew Ecuador away amazing front foot football it genuinely it sounds like a cliche but it felt like the entire stadium was driving them on so England are going to face a real test in this one but just thoughts on that game from both of you James you were watching it I believe you said before this game, before this podcast, sorry, you watched the England game in an English-themed pub.

26:35You watched the Mexico one in slightly less glamorous circumstances. Well, I mean, yeah, just a less successful watching experience because I watched it at a restaurant in Dallas. Dallas obviously has like a big Mexican community, so all the sports bars were packed. But the stream in my one was about two minutes behind. so I just heard these like huge roars uh which made it very clear what was about to happen so yeah kind of a suboptimal viewing experience I would say I've got to say as an editor I actually never mind that because you're always doing other work so you're not always like necessarily fully watching and the weekends when the premier league's on I actually find it very helpful a couple of sub editors desks their their screens are mile ahead so goal and I get to look and then And I'm like, oh, brilliant.

27:21I'm all over this. But Gregor, on that performance by Mexico against Ecuador, the much-touted potential dark horses Ecuador were made to look very ordinary in this one, weren't they?

27:31Gregor Robertson: Yeah, yeah, I watched this this morning. And you're right, the first half an hour in particular, it was electric. Mexico were outstanding. Played with such pace and bravery, actually. You know, they built, kind of, played the ball through the thirds. And the first goal in particular, it was just a great sequence I really like Luca Gilberto Mora as well, the little 17 year old who was giving his first start I think it was, or no he played in the last game and he kept his place you can tell why there's a lot of big hope around him and you're right I've watched previous games and you did question the level of the opposition you know the opening game against South Africa as well was dire really and I didn't really see much in this team but they've grown and grown and grown and now you've got four games into tournament you've not conceded a goal you've got a 100 % record you've got as you say this enormous energy behind you and that's inside that stadium that even comes through the television and you've got players who are really kind of starting to step up I like Alvarado as well the right winger he's not got a great pace but he's quite elegant he moves gracefully with the ball and he's got a great delivery as well when he cuts in onto his left foot and Jimenez leading the line really well too I think Montez, Cesar Montez the centre half is a big threat from set plays he almost scored a couple of goals in the second half so thoroughly deserved win against a disappointing Ecuador and it's going to be tough England have got to improve haven't they James You might have been impressed in parts with this performance against DR Congo, but they've got to raise their levels, haven't they?

29:20Yeah, it's going to be a really, really hard game, definitely. And I think the altitude is going to be a factor. You know, Mexico, obviously, are used to playing at altitude. England aren't. Yeah, I think it's going to be a really, really tough game. Yeah, absolutely. Next game have looked good. Yeah, you mentioned the altitude there. Matt Lawson has done a really fascinating piece that's on the Times website now. 7 ,220 feet above sea level, this one. So the high altitude is going to be a big factor. England haven't been able to prepare for that. So we'll see the physiological challenges that Thomas Tuchel and his team will have to face.

30:03Gregor Robertson: There's the record at the Aztec as well. It's something like they've lost two out of 87 games ever. Really? Wow. God, I didn't see that stat. It's extraordinary. So, yeah, you've got a few hurdles to cross before, I don't know, just in the whole view of the game. It's going to be an intimidating place to enter and try and beat a host on home soil. Yeah, and we're worrying about who's going to play right back. Never mind. There's plenty more analysis on England's com. We'll be hopefully catching up with Johnny Northcroft, Matt, and the rest of the team in the coming days before that match. Let's wrap up today's show by chatting to James.

30:40An amazing tournament for you, James. you've seen so many teams we were just running through it before some huge names some of the smaller teams as well in the group stages um by answering this question give listeners a quick run-through of the games that you've seen but finish it by saying what your favorite game was right okay so we we started off with uh brazil v morocco in new york at the the stadium that's going to host the final um that was yeah that was that was a really good game and um sort of you know gave some that that was possibly brazil's i've seen brazil three times yeah and i've seen i've seen them probably get a bit better with each game i would say i've sort of seen um so they're the team i've seen the most i've saw their game against morocco the game against haiti and the last game against Japan.

31:32And I think they probably played better with each round, albeit they were still mighty close to maybe losing, maybe going to extra time against Japan. I've seen Norway a couple of times, where they're a group match against Iraq, and I saw them play Ivory Coast yesterday. um uh they're kind of um you know i find erling harland absolutely fascinating to watch it's such a kind of minimalist expression of what sporting superstardom can look like you know we were all we were all there in the press box kind of counting touches we got to the first hydration break and we're like has he touched the ball he had he had one but with his head so not with his his his first five touches four of them were with his were with his head including sort of two defensive headers just you know amazing to have you know be one of the you know best footballers in the world and i just yeah i just think it's you know i sort of imagine maybe american viewers who maybe you know don't know that much about soccer sort of turning on having seen all the adverts about oerling holland one of the best soccer players in the world sort of turning on and thinking, wow, this guy is going to be amazing.

32:48And, you know, it is so interesting because obviously he is incredible. I'm not at all diminishing what a brilliant player he is because at the end of the day, he's got 60 goals in 53 internationals, which is the fastest anyone has ever got there before. He's scored in Norway's last 13 competitive matches. And this was actually the only one of the last seven where he hasn't scored twice. so he you know scoring goals is the most valuable and difficult thing in football he's pretty good at it probably better than you know pretty much anyone else to be honest but he's you know he's just he's just such a he's such an interesting he's such a genuinely he's such a genuinely interesting player to watch you know it's such an interesting interpretation of the the center forward role and um yeah my quick kind of rundown of my other games i also saw Sweden v Japan, Spain v Uruguay in Guadalajara, and I saw the France-Iraq game, which was paused for two hours because of a thunderstorm.

33:55Which was your favourite? If you had to pick one, what's the one that sticks in the mind at the moment? Best game, probably Brazil v Japan, I would say.

34:01Gregor Robertson: Yeah. And just quickly, James, for me, I want to ask, as Tom said, we were waxed and lyrical about France. What was it like to watch that front four in the flesh? Yeah, I loved it. Have you seen anything better? in the flesh uh no i was like so i i think i think uh best individual performance i've seen probably michael elise in that match and you know it probably wasn't even his best you know i'm pretty sure it wasn't his best performance of the tournament but yeah he's he's an amazing player to watch i absolutely love watching him um and that was in the center the senegal game james the first one was that or was that that was that was france france france france france the game that was paused for a for a thunderstorm um i what i think is amazing about elise say is like it's his confidence and what i mean when i say that is he is a guy who two years ago had never played for france had never played a match in the champions league now he's playing his first ever major tournament alongside the guy who is the reigning ballon d 'or and the guy who is, you know, I think quite possibly one of the top five international footballers of all time.

35:15If you paused international football right now and said who are the top five international footballers of all time, I think you'd have quite a fair case for picking Kylian Mbappe as one of them. And yet Michael Alisse somehow seems to be the most confident, kind of spontaneous, at-ease member of that team. and his relationship with Mbappe is just a lovely thing to watch. They clearly really, really enjoy playing together. Yeah, they're a brilliant, brilliant front four, aren't they? And as someone who watched France a lot in the last Euros, where it was quite a painful experience at times when they had this remarkable statistic if they reached the semifinals without having scored any goal that wasn't a penalty or an own goal.

36:07Yeah, I forgot that. It's like crazy. Yeah, I mean, it's night and day, isn't it? You know, Alissé has been the kind of catalyst for them to look like a much, much kind of more irresistible attacking force.

36:21Gregor Robertson: Mel James, we started off disagreeing, but we absolutely agree on that. Come together at the end. James, I wanted to ask on that theme as well, because as you say, you've watched France a lot. You're well-versed in French football. Didier Deschamps, we talked yesterday, me and Gregor, about this idea that, as you say, his previous tournament football has been effective, successful, but not as glittering and magical as this. Is it just the Lissé? What is it that's changed? Is it just the Lissé? Is it that final piece in the puzzle? Because if they keep going like this and if they were to win it, this would be the most remarkable last dance as we've termed it.

36:56And this is an idea that actually we've set you away on potentially for a piece in the coming weeks. what what is it about Deschamps is it just Elise what else has he done well I mean they this this this France team under Deschamps they've always they've always had it in them they've always had that extra gear in them they obviously scored you know they in the last World Cup final they scored three goals in sort of the space of 50 60 minutes I guess at the end of at the end of the game um and they obviously scored four goals against Croatia in 2018 four goals against Argentina or in 2018 yeah it's funny because obviously Dachon has been in charge for a long time and watching the last year you know I think it's always difficult to be the manager for a really long time you know when you get to your sort of sixth tournament seventh tournament it's hard to kind of be fresh and inspiring and it's the last Euros it really sort of felt like everything had got a bit stale basically like they just kind of ground to a bit of a a bit of a halt um it's sort of kind of become a bit sort of lost in its own kind of conservatism i honestly i i i don't really know i suspect at least say is quite a large part of it you know i think when you integrate a kind of really brilliant player sometimes even you know i appreciate they already had you know they weren't exactly badly off for elite talent but i think elise has had yeah just a really invigorating effect on that front four in particular um yeah and they just seem to be playing with with joy but of course that's always easy to say when a team is you know doing really well and knocking goals in but they look great we'll see if paraguay can stop them as i said yesterday james just before we let you go and we wrap up this episode favorite moment of the tournament so far you because you're doing all those games you get to travel around all over the place as well any particular moments on or off the field i'm sure it probably wasn't watching that mexico game five minutes behind everyone else yeah so i mean that's it my my favorite moment off the field uh so after the japan brazil game uh a couple of us went to a sort of food court type place where they were showing um germany v paraguay the end of the germany v paraguay game full of brazil fans who are all supporting paraguay and watching the shootout and then after the shootout there was this amazing moment where all these fans in brazil shirts started chanting america latina america latina for south america just like so interesting and also obviously you know amazingly cool to see that expression of like continental solidarity i was explain this to my to my uber driver that you know that wouldn't happen in in an english pub you know you don't you just when when france when you don't get you know people in an english pub he was like he was like really do they do they not do that i was like no it's just no it's it's just different it's just different what can i tell you gregor robertson in an england shirt going

40:02Gregor Robertson: come on the boys i didn't want to chip in there i'll leave it it's obvious and yeah favorite favorite moment on the pitch i i just i i mean that's that's harder to pick but i really loved seeing the um the norway players their sort of scenes of like celebration and kind of satisfaction a job well done after they reached the round of 16 their first ever win in a knockout match the world cup which is really cool to see harland and odegaard sort of exchange like you know a kind of hug of yeah you know we've we did this and and to see harlan when someone someone put a sort of viking helmet on his head and he he was obviously they did they did the row which obviously is is class we all we all love the viking row but i also really like when they put a they put a helmet on harlan's head but more so because you could see him looking out at the crowd with a sort of expression that was kind of like halfway between that sort of like amused Haaland smirk which we've probably all seen but also part of him kind of looked actually genuinely quite moved and I really love to see that I thought that was a really that was a really kind of beautiful moment to see him looking at all the the Norway shirts and actually looking like he might you know actually quite moved by that by that scene I really like that I think everyone is getting on board with Norway at this tournament another reason why the perfect replacement for Alison Rudd James finishing with a bit of love for Norway and quite rightly so So I've got to say, listeners, if you want to get more Norway joy, go and find their social media accounts.

41:32There's some absolutely great gear on there. But we'll leave it there for now. James Gearbrow and Gregor Robertson and Matt Lawton, thank you very much for joining me on the show. Now, listeners, we are going to put this show live on Wednesday evening so you can get your England reaction early. So this is your Thursday show, and we will be back on Friday morning to discuss USA and Belgium and the rest of the latest knockout action. We will see you then. Thank you.