WORLD CUP DAY 22: Ronaldo through and Spain look strong

0:29We'll see you next time.

0:37Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 22 of our daily World Cup shows and the round of 32 stage just keeps delivering drama and big name performances. I'm Tom Clark and in part two of today's show I'll be chatting to Johnny Northcroft about England's preparations to face Mexico. But first, let's discuss the overnight action. It's 6am now and Switzerland have just wrapped up a comfortable 2-0 win against Algeria. And in the first game of the night, Spain beat Austria. I'll be hearing from Pete Rutzler in just a moment. But the match of the evening was undoubtedly Croatia 1, Portugal 2.

1:19In fact, not so much a whole match, just one bonkers brilliant half of football. Definitely go and check out the highlights this morning. Ian Whittle was there for us and sent me this match report not long after full time. I'm speaking from Toronto Stadium a few minutes after the final whistle of what was by some margin an absolutely incredible, I was going to say second 45 minutes, with stoppage time it was well over an hour in the end. But a fairly interesting but largely forgettable first half made way for this carnage, for want of a better word, in the second half. The highlight points were that in the 94th minute it looked as though Portugal had won the game, only for Croatia to storm back and Manchester City defender Jasko Gvardhial to score what looked like for a split second, an equaliser 13 minutes into stoppage time.

2:08You can imagine the scenes on the terraces and you can imagine the scenes from both benches, but VAR decided eventually, and I think we'll probably agree ultimately, that whatever the sort of ethics of it, they got the decision right, the goal was ruled out and Portugal advanced to take on Spain. And of course, in the middle of all this was Cristiano Ronaldo, depending on your point of view, the greatest footballer of all time or certainly in the conversation for that, who has largely kind of been an afterthought at this tournament, I think you'll agree so far. It's as if Lionel Messi has been getting all the attention along with new books like Kylian Mbappe, Erling Haaland, Harry Kane, not a young book but certainly has been getting more attention than Ronaldo until tonight where Ronaldo ended his record of never having scored a knockout goal at the World Cup with a very well taken penalty which was actually an equaliser after Croatia had taken a shot lead.

3:01Both sets of fans were absolutely into this game I didn't see a neutral fan or shirt in the stadium it was all either red and white checks of Croatia or or maroon red of Portugal and the reaction from Croatian fans after their 103rd minute equaliser was ruled out was pretty disappointing. A lot of plastic missiles, glasses, bottles thrown onto the pitch, which created a slight delay before restart. But at the end of it all, it's Portugal who advance, it's Croatia who go out. Luka Modric, unfortunately, almost an afterthought in this in what was surely his last international game. Plenty to talk about, plenty to debate, but this tournament, I've got to say, just keeps on delivering.

3:41Yeah, Ian there, summing up nicely. You can read his report on the Times website now. Honestly, listeners, Cristiano Ronaldo through, but he owes it all to snick-o-meter technology in the World Cup footballers, ensuring that Croatia goal was ruled offside. What a world we live in. I cannot wait to hear Gregor Robertson's view on that particular development. I must say, whilst it was the correct decision to disallow that late leveller for Croatia, I can't help but think of all the joy and drama we are losing from the game when a microchip in the ball is deciding whether or not it brushed a player's head or maybe I just wanted another 30 minutes of a great game to watch in the early hours of the morning and plenty of rumors by the way surrounding Cristiano Ronaldo's future international level before this game suggesting that once this tournament has finished he will retire from international football but he spoke briefly to the waiting press after this win and he said, I don't make reckless decisions.

4:40I will decide after the tournament, not now. Up next for Portugal and Ronaldo then, as Ian mentioned, it is Spain. Peter Rutzler was there for us to watch their win against Austria and I had a good catch-up chat with him about that victory and also USA's hopes for their clash with Belgium. Pete, you join us from a very sunny Los Angeles, which is, I'm not going to lie, pretty tough to take when I'm sat in a dark living room at midnight, but you know different strokes for different folks at this World Cup. Loads and loads to talk about with you. Two big games for you in two days but let's start with Spain.

5:163-0 winners against Austria. That's where you've just been. Quite an impressive performance this one from Spain in my opinion. They've still not conceded a goal. Quietly flying under the radar behind France and Argentina, the favourites aren't they at the minute? Yeah I think they are flying under the radar a little bit. I think the fact that they drew with Cape Verde in their opening game probably set the tone and painting a picture in everyone's minds about how good they are. I think it's remarkable that this win is their first World Cup knockout win since they won the tournament in 2010. I mean, that's absolutely crazy when we consider how we've seen Spain, particularly in the last few years, winning the Euros in 2024.

5:57Obviously, they went out in the round of 16 in Russia and Qatar. But no, I agree. I think this was a really impressive performance. Possibly, yeah, certainly their best so far, I'd say, at this World Cup. They sort of grew into the game. They just sort of suffocated Austria, to be honest. You know, as the game sort of started, and you know about Ralf Ranić and the fact that he was an architect of Gagin Pressing and the way he wants his Austria team to play and he's really changed the style of football in the country, really, really done a holistic philosophical switch for the country. You thought, OK, well, maybe they'll press them quite well, maybe they'll get some openings.

6:45I mean, in truth, they lacked the requisite quality in the final third, not just in terms of chance creation, but just speed, movement, dynamism, a bit of quality. I mean, Mark Arnautovic is their record goal scorer and he's 37 now and he was on the bench and they looked better when he came on in the second half, but you can't really be relying on that. So that's obviously a caveat. But you just assume that it would cause Spain more problems but they were totally in control. That combination of what we're used to with Spain which is complete dominance of the ball, that sort of metronomic configuration they have in midfield where nobody misplaces a pass, the precision on the ball is exquisite, the weight of every pass is brilliant.

7:26And then just the cutting edge really. I mean they've got Lamin-Yamal who's just speaking, we've just been in the mix zone now and saying that he feels almost 100 % and he's starting to play his best football, which is probably pretty ominous because he's looked all right so far in the tournament. And today he was fantastic. I mean, Austria's best player is Conrad Leimer, the left back. He's quite influential when he gets on the ball. He was run ragged. He was nutmegged twice in the first half. He had Marcel Sabitzer, another key player, like doubling up just trying to contain him and they couldn't uh and then for the second goal when Pedro Porra sort of burst into the box that's that's Sabitz's man but it wasn't like oh he's lost his man it's just the poor bloke's knackered and I think when you have a player like that it creates space for everyone else and when the team's so good on the ball it's it it makes them really hard to contain I mean the the defensive stats for Spain are ridiculous they haven't conceded in this tournament they haven't conceded they haven't conceded six shots in the last six World Cup games, so going back into 2022 as well.

8:30They're 34 games unbeaten now, and they're not full strength. I mentioned Jamal, he's not been fully fit, so he came into the tournament with an injury. Nico Williams came into the tournament with an injury, didn't even play today. He picked up a knock against Uruguay, and it was those wingers that made Luis Dila Fuentes' side so impressive at Euro 2024. And we haven't really seen the best of that, so I think that the one another criticism might be their cutting edge. I mean, they show plenty of that today, but if those wingers start getting up to speed as well then they look like the complete package Yeah it's pretty ominous isn't it I mean two goals for Ayasbal up front you know you've got Pedro Porro a player that maybe English fans will be thinking God he's in the Spain team he's the starting right back crikey but I mean Kukurea as well at left back was fantastic I thought that assist looked very silky for the second goal you know as you say you've now got Jamal joining this team Pau Kubasi in defence 19 years old looks pure class doesn't he I mean where would you rank them where should listeners who you know we're at the we're heading towards the round of 16 stage we're getting to the real business end now so much as I said in my intro has been made of France and Argentina but are Spain just behind them for you?

9:40Yeah absolutely they know they're amongst them not just behind them I genuinely think it's because it feels a bit more understated and it feels very familiar with Spain and you have those periods where they're just so, so dominant, it's not quite as exciting. I mean, they have Jamal and he is the spark, he's vibrancy, he's loud, but everything else is quiet and understated and sophisticated and well-structured and that doesn't grab you in the same way. Maybe that will change as Jamal, like today, was so impressive. If he didn't score, I mean, he was man of the match, but he didn't score. Maybe if he starts to grab a couple, that changes.

10:19I mean, Oyathabal, you mentioned, I mean, he's a very understated figure. He's playing as a striker. He's not always been a striker. He scored 17-17 for Spain. He scored two today. Really intelligent player with his movement, technically brilliant like they all are. That's probably why they don't grab the spotlight in the same way. But as we go into these knockout games, I mean, obviously it's Portugal or Croatia next. That'll be a big, big game. I think people will sort of sit up and take a bit more notice. But yeah, they're absolutely contenders. yeah really really impressive stuff from Spain just flying under the radar but not for much longer and Pete let's talk about the other big game that you were at and of course regular listeners will know you've been with the team USA for the whole tournament as well as dipping into other games as you've just done a big win for them against Bosnia and Herzegovina yesterday but I think we have to start with Florian Balogun's red card you and I were chatting over whatsapp message and things I was stomping around my living room in a rage what's the reaction to that red card there's been so much on social media I've had various listeners and people engaging with my comments on social media some of them saying look it's a red card it's dangerous, what was the reaction been like in America because you know the American press the American public, they can get behind a bit of controversy yeah it's a core celeb, yeah no they've firmly got behind it in terms of a real sense of perplexion at the red card I'm like you it wasn't a red card for me and it's been quite interesting with social media and the sort of reaction you get and everyone looks at the image of I think it's Mohamedevich his ankle, I mean they'd had a great battle throughout the game and it looks bad and it is ugly, it's an ugly contact but when you watch it in real speed and we watched it at the time it wasn't anything it's him trying to trying to plant his foot so there's a lot of upset there's a lot of anger particularly about the fact that they can't appeal so there's no mechanism within FIFA's rules that would allow the automatic suspension to be appealed I mean FIFA's disciplinary committee can look at it and extend the ban and they may well do that and if they did do that then you can appeal but the fact that you can't appeal didn't go down hasn't gone down very well at all I mean in the mix zone afterwards.

12:43Tyler Adams said, typical FIFA, and Christian Pulisic was like, it's ridiculous that to say something like that, you miss a game. So there's a lot of frustration, and I think that's partly because Balogun's had a really good tournament. He's been really impressive. Obviously scored two goals in the opening game against Paraguay. Scored again last night in Santa Clara. Had a goal ruled out. His movement, his running, he combines really well with Tillman and McKinney and Pulisic. They've got this really lovely understanding and the rotations they do are brilliant. So he's a big miss and I think that's what's compounded it.

13:17Richard Pochettino was unhappy about it as well. He said it was never a red card. Obviously there's a comparison to the Lionel Messi one. I mean they are slightly different but it's a similar sort of action where in real time you're stepping your foot. I mean Messi's one looks worse I'd say because of where he is in relation to the Algeria defender. but that's been brought up as a comparison. But yeah, general frustration and I think mainly because of the impact that has on the last 16 and not having Balogun available for Belgium. Yeah, we'll come on to that Belgian game as a final question in just a sec but it was still an impressive performance.

13:52I mean, Bosnia were always going to park the bus to use the cliche and they certainly did that but Team USA, they were impressive. Pulisic back on the pitch, we've just been speaking about Jamal and injury-prone wingers who are so important. He's such a vital part of that team and the fact that they got a win with 10 men again shows how impressive they've been at this tournament doesn't it yeah I think Pochettino was particularly happy with the last half an hour obviously going down to 10 men the pressure's on it changes the dynamic I mean the US and all of their games have scored inside the opening 15 minutes and so the fact that Bosnia managed to get through that period put them in a quite a strong position and a bit of uncertainty because we didn't know how the US would react but I mean they grew into the game they got their goal with that slight element of fortune where Tillman's past feeds into Balogun's feet.

14:40But once they went down to 10, you know, there's been a lot of talk about how much they're together. And I've talked on this podcast about the sort of the real positive vibes in the camp. And we did an interview with Mauricio Pochettino at the team hotel. And that was a big part of what he was saying. You know, he talked about the culture that they've had to sort of rebuild, sort of strip it down. rid it of complacency and then and then bring everyone back back together again um so it's one thing to talk about all that stuff but another to to actually see it uh and there was certainly a a great amount of resilience um from the team i mean it's a bosnia team that they i think they created the second lowest amount of xg of anyone who qualified for the next round we're not talking about a team that's really going to hurt you but at 1-0 anything can happen but in the end the US managed to take it away from from them and just get through this and get get over the the line in terms of winning a knockout game it's the first knockout game that they've won in the world cup since 2002 they've matched now what they did in Qatar because they got to the round of 16 there it's now it's the point where you can write okay everything's going in the right direction and and the public seem to be taking it on I mean we've just had the figures out from from Fox for the English language broadcast it peaked audience at 31 million which is absolutely massive for soccer so I mean it was at prime time so it's the first time there's been a US World Cup game at five o 'clock eastern time eight o 'clock sorry five o 'clock pacific time eight o 'clock eastern time so that helps but it's it's a clear indication that people are starting to to get to fall in with this falling behind this team and that should that should be interesting for Seattle which is another similar time kickoff yeah absolutely an interesting game this one against Belgium Belgium beating Senegal 3-2 in a remarkable finish in their game a comeback win wily old characters Belgium is how I'd classify them I went as far to say in the knockout preview show with Gregor and Tony Cascarino that I wanted Belgium to go out because they'd bored me I think I still stand by that so I was a little bit upset that Senegal didn't make it through a little bit of refereeing and VAR intervention but what will the USA team be approaching this?

16:52it's an interesting game I would say USA are favourites having watched all the games but Belgium are a strong team with big-name players, recognisable stars. They've got Romelu Lukaku, who seems to score every time he comes off the bench. And obviously Florian Balogun is missing. So how will USA approach this? Who will be playing up front and will they be chest out or will they be cautious, do you think? Well, the US played Belgium in March and I was there for that. They lost 5-2. And I remember coming away from that game because they'd obviously beaten Uruguay 5-1 in the preceding friendly in November.

17:25and I think it was a little bit of a reality check, mainly about how clinical the best teams in the world can be. We haven't really seen the US defence tested yet by none of their opponents so far, aside from Turkey, but Turkey, Mauricio Pochettino rotated 10 players. None of them are known for what they do at the top end of the pitch. They're all teams that prefer to sit deep, soak pressure and spring counters. if they can. Belgium is a different kettle of fish. Now, it's not the same Belgian team that, you know, as long been lauded as should have gone further in tournaments like these. But it still has Jeremy Docku, it still has Kevin De Bruyne, it still has Lukaku coming off the bench and causing problems, and Juri Tielemans.

18:11So we're talking about a much stronger opponent. So I think there'll be a bit of wariness within the US camp about what they'll be facing. I think they will take some confidence from that friendly because of the way that they played in spells. There were long spells of that game in Atlanta where they were playing their patterns of play, they were causing a lot of problems, they just weren't clinical. Obviously, that makes losing Balogun disappointing for them. But they've got options. I mean, Ricardo Pepe's played. He played against Australia and did really well. He played in place of Christian Pulisic.

18:50a similar forward but does like to drop a little bit deeper he scored 19 goals for PSV Eindhoven last season as they won the league so he's in good form there's a lot of high hopes about him Prochettino's spoken really warmly about him in press conferences said he can be a really top centre forward globally so I imagine he'll get the nod they've also got Haji Wright he's just come up to the Premier League with Coventry so they have options it's not like there's nothing and I think actually for the US I mean, historically having a centre-forward has been, you know, it's been a bit of an issue for them.

19:24So they do have those options, but it's going to be a really difficult game. I mean, Belgium, they haven't overly impressed me, but I think once they get Doku up to speed, he can win games on his own. And that's really what he did in Atlanta when the US played them in a friendly. So, I mean, I saw them against Iran and they were a bit loose at the back. I mean, they didn't win that game. so it's not a terrible draw really for the US I probably would be more concerned if Senegal had got through because of their overall qualities and also the more athleticism they have in the group and the better balance I think to their squad but no it's they'll be under no illusions this is the first proper test of the US and certainly we'll get to we'll put them under the microscope and if they win it I mean they'll be it will set it will certainly ramp up the excitement yeah absolutely and you'll be the man to capture all that excitement Peter Rutzler thank you very much for joining me from a sunny Los Angeles we're going to take a quick break now we'll be back with Johnny Northcroft to chat England in just a second stick with us

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21:21welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times i'm tom clark and i'm joined for the part two of this daily world cup show by our chief football correspondent and the football journalist of the year johnny northcroft johnny we're 24 hours on from england's win against dr congo uh mixed reception i'd say on the pod yesterday um gregor very critical of this england side and their performance. James Geerbrandt a little bit more reflective. Since then some listeners have been in touch. Andre thought we were a bit harsh on Noni Madueke. Ruben actually thought England played pretty well against a very good Congo side.

21:56I'd say we definitely didn't give them enough praise yesterday. I read out your intro to your match report which quite rightly praised Harry Kane. What are your reflections now, 24 hours on? Yeah, it's interesting hearing those different reactions Tom and I suppose it comes down to the different expectations people may have of England. It was a kind of glass half full, a glass half empty day. And it was a very, I found it quite draining actually. I was really drained when I got back home last night. I felt I'd been through the ringer a little bit and I was only there in a professional capacity.

22:31But yeah, look, to start with the positives, I mean, Harry Kane, I think, gave the best performance I've ever seen from an England player. And I was there in 2001 when Beckham had his famous solo performance against Greece. I saw Waza at Euro 2004. I can't remember anything like what Harry Kane produced. It was a privilege to be there. It was absolutely stunning. And I do think we're seeing a player ascending right to the very top of not just the English pantheon, but of the great strikers in front of our eyes. That's amazing. And it's uplifting to watch. And there are other performances like Drew Bellingham, who again, he was a bit emotional at times, but I thought he forced the issue at times really well.

23:19And, you know, there were flashes from Elliot Anderson that were good. So it wasn't a performance without merit. And actually, when you think of two or three key players being in that kind of form, you can take a lot of hope from that. But Congo were fantastic, first of all. They surprised England, I think, by putting far more players in the front line than England expected. perhaps England even expected a back five and didn't get one there was a sort of fearlessness there was a resilience about them they played some good football at times we've got to acknowledge that as well but we're moving into the last 16 of the World Cup and I think the traits that concerned me were I think as I said in my intro traits that sort of whispered a little concern against Ghana and spoke a bit loudly against Panama and seemed to scream yesterday which were that open midfield for a start.

24:15England have ended up playing a version of 4-4-2 because they need goals and only Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham at the moment seem capable of providing them. So Jude's being pushed up into that front line. But that's leaving a 4-4-2 basically and an old English trait in these tournaments and I've seen it in action since 1998, first time I covered England in a tournament, is that open midfield of an undermanned midfield against continental sides or foreign sides who tend to put more prayers in that area. Then you talk about the, you know, I talk about dysfunction. I think on both flanks, you're struggling to see proper connections being made between fullback, wide player, and then the midfield are helping out.

25:02Until Eze came on and Declan Rice went to the right back, He had suddenly those connections on the right, but they weren't there until then. And then just individually, I felt there was a lack of composure at times in the passing, too fast. The pressing was a bit heedless at times. And the defence, I think we've moved from saying the defence looks vulnerable to saying the defence is vulnerable because that Congo goal is so badly defended. It was a sequence of bad defendings. Including non-Imaidu Eki, who's not in the back four. So it's a whole team thing. But that's where I was with it. Amazing game.

25:46I'm blessed to see Harry like that. But a game that makes you think, do that against Mexico and England are out. Interesting that you list those players. And quite rightly, Harry Kane, Jude Bellingham, and then I think Elliot Anderson is having a good tournament for England. And that's not to say that Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka aren't big players. you just get the sense increasingly that they aren't playing at full tilt in the way that Kane and Bellingham are. Paul Joyce has written about this kind of theme on the Times website now about this squad, and so much was talked about, finishes. Tuchel's got a squad of finishers.

26:17He's like, OK, that's fine, but what about the starting 11? You've mapped it out there nicely, Johnny. It is kind of remarkable that we're heading into a last 16 game. We've played four matches and fans, journalists, everyone connected to England is debating what the starting 11 should be. Is that a problem? And do you have any answers to it? You mentioned the solutions that they found in-game from Anthony Barry there, moving Declan Rice to right-back as a coming on. What do you think the solutions are for Mexico? Look, the right-back slot is the biggest headache at the moment. And I guess the options are hoping against hope that Rhys James can make it on the pitch and then taking the gamble to put him there.

27:02Tuchel is saying he's nearly ready he went through the mix zone and you know it seemed quite positive last night but it would be a big call to try and put him in then you're looking at trying Jen Spence again I don't want to beat Spence around the head with criticism because he's a he's been put in a difficult position in this tournament and he's tried his heart out and he's got qualities, but I just don't think he's really at the highest level, either defensively or in possession. You know, he's not a regular starter for Tottenham, so that tells you that. You could try Esri Konza out there, which she's done for Aston Villa.

27:46Then you're having to put John Stones in the middle, and Stones doesn't necessarily look fit or in his best physical state. And the other option would be Jarrell Konza if he's back. but again he's got those injury issues that's the biggest headache but as Joyce in his piece kind of points out because he's chosen this idea of starters and finishers and you've got to factor in the vibes men as well he's kind of left himself as he's been telling us with a squad of 15 starters and the rest are there to finish games or they're there to help culture and that's quite a narrow pool to choose from and it would be fine if you had 15 to choose from but you get your 11 at the start of the tournament and things are great, but they're not.

28:36So he's trying to use those 15 players to solve a lot of problems and I do think that's an issue. The teams that tend to win tournaments they might grow during the group stage and make some changes like we saw with Argentina in 2022 but they're not chopping and changing all the way through. They hit their stride coming out of the group games and that's a concern with England especially when there's so many issues, I mentioned right back but the left side hasn't kind of settled down yet either. Who would you go for at right back Johnny? I've had to push you for a name. Gregor argued that he'd give Spence another chance because he's the best one on one defender probably going up against Julian Quinones for Mexico, having a great tournament.

29:26James Gebrant argued for Esri Konza if you were picking a name from that unideal bunch. Yeah, I'd go for Esri Konza. I'm not sure about Jez Spence being this great one-on-one defender, quite frankly. I'd go for Esri Konza. It's the best of a bad set of options. I do it because he has done it for Villa. He is a good defender. It wasn't his best game against the Congo, but I don't think he's had many bad games for England. He would be able to tuck in and become a third centre-back in build-up. And Stones is a concern fitness-wise, but he has got that wealth of experience. So you're ending up trusting.

30:06The gamble with that is trusting Stones to be able to execute, I think. And I think he's got enough caps behind him in body of work that he'd make that gamble. The only fact is we don't know what Rhys James' state is in. And if he is in a condition to play, even if he's 75%, I think I'd have to gamble on it. Really interesting, isn't it? The possibility that if England get past Mexico, there's a chance they might be facing Brazil in the next game. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think they might have a bloke called Vinicius who plays down the left wing. But I mean, you know, that won't be a problem for any of these right backs, will it, Johnny?

30:41Anyway, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I'm going to let you go in just a second, Johnny. Just two pieces that have just gone live on the Times website as we record this in the early evening UK time. The first one is from your colleague Matt Lawton out there with you, of course, revealing that England are actually delaying their arrival in Mexico rather than going and trying desperately to acclimatise to the different altitude. Why are they delaying their arrival? This plays to something that we're pretty high in our minds after the whole Middlesbrough-Southampton playoff, but spying.

31:16There's a couple of factors. There's the sports science factor, which is that rather than fly straight from Atlanta, which would take them into the kind of danger zone in terms of acclimatizing to altitude. Because if you go to altitude, you either have to go two weeks before and properly acclimatize or leave it as late as possible. And if you do something in the middle, three days or more, then you're probably at its worst. So they're trying to go as close to the game as possible, but they're also trying to make sure that they can do their last tactical training session, which will be tomorrow, before they go to Mexico because they've got a pretty secure base here in Kansas City where they're confident they won't be spied upon.

32:06Having to go to do it in Mexico, they just couldn't guarantee that. So that's what Matt's been writing about. That's her motivation. It seems quite sensible to me. There's that slight oddity that they'll be training in the morning in Kansas and then going straight to Mexico on match day minus two, which is just a bit different to what they've done so far. Yeah, and then finally, a piece from yourself with some comments from Thomas Tuchel. Listen, he's been under pressure on the pitch and with squad selection and things, but he's talking a good game at this World Cup, Johnny. I've got to say, Matt Lawton always praises him for giving some box office quotes.

32:41He talked before this game about impressing the kids who were watching their first matches. Then he followed up by saying the kids have got to stay up till one o 'clock to watch this one. It's been announced that the pubs are staying open as well. Everything's geared towards England for this game. But just before we let you go, tell us what he's been saying about the Azteca and about playing in Mexico. Yeah, look, Thomas is an absolute jury to deal with as a journalist. Sometimes you just want to put him straight onto copy. He's so good. And one thing he's projected is how much he is loving being a World Cup manager.

33:10And his love of previous World Cups and football history really sort of comes through when he talks that way. so I was among those who spoke to him last night after the game about Mexico 1986 his eyes really lit up he was 13 um a sort of football mad kid in Bavaria that was his first sort of big tournament and he's sort of reeling off some of the the tea that he remember the Russian team and all that kind of stuff but when it comes to the hand of God he said it it's not only the English that it It means something to everyone. It made such an impression. And when asked if he thought that, you know, that history, the hand of God, would be hanging over England when they play there, he said, yes, but I believe in karma and I believe that we will get something back.

34:01So it's a positive bit of psychology, isn't it? That we're going to see England change their luck in this stadium. and look I want to end on a positive note because I do you know I've listed lots of problems and blah blah blah but I do come back to the fact that they have got a brilliant manager they've got the best striker England have ever had and one of the best I think we've seen I think we can say that they've got Jude Bellingham there's a lot of room for improvement in the England team the underlying statistics are still good compared to maybe what we're seeing Congo were brilliant and England overcame a psychological test so look it starts now doesn't it this is the business end I think the round of six being onwards is really when you get to judge international teams and yeah that's anything could beat Mexico for all the issues they're well capable of winning that game yeah a brilliant positive note to end on Johnny Northcroft thank you very much for joining me on today's episode of the game world cup daily thanks to the rest of the times team too for joining me earlier in the show if you've got views on england and if you're buoyed by johnny's positive comments do get in touch with me tom.clark at the times.co.uk we'll be back with another show tomorrow we'll see you then

35:40We'll be right back.

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