WORLD CUP DAY 23: England kick off farce and Cape Verde drama

0:05Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 23 of our daily World Cup shows and what a night of drama that was. I'm Tom Clark and on today's show I'll be chatting to Martin Samuel about England's clash with Mexico. But first let's run through a night which included a FIFA fixture farce and more Cape Verde magic. Now, you might have gone to bed after hearing the news that FIFA were considering changing the kick-off time of England's clash with Mexico by around six hours, bringing it forward to 7pm British Standard Time due to worries about thunderstorms and mad weather in the area of the ground.

0:46Well, just after midnight last night, that move was called off and the original kick-off time of 1am British Standard Time was reinstated. Matt Lawton, as ever, our chief sports correspondent was across this story and he sent me this summary of the situation. Well, what an extraordinary few hours in the history of the World Cup. It must have been 2, 3 o 'clock in the afternoon in Kansas City when news first emerged, actually in Mexico, that there were discussions being had about a possible change to the kick-off time at the Azteca on Sunday. The first the FA knew of it was when English journalists actually contacted them, having seen these reports in Mexico.

1:34It sent them into complete disarray. Even as they were leaving their Kansas City training base to fly to Mexico, they were unclear as to what was going on. All they did know was that FIFA were indeed having these discussions and there was the possibility of the game being moved by six hours. Now, it seems to me that between getting pushback from both Mexico and England and possibly even Brazil and Norway, because the six-hour move to midday in Mexico meant a clash with the Brazil-Norway game, a broadcasting clash, and therefore the possibility that they may too have to move their game, it seems that that, sort of those objections, combined with what I understand were logistical problems, given the sheer amount of people that work at these games, from the stadium staff to volunteers to the military to the police, you know, you're talking an absolute logistical nightmare.

2:42Now, look, there were legitimate reasons why they were looking at this. There are storms forecast for Sunday afternoon in Mexico City. And as we already know at this tournament, that can be problematic. But for the news to come out the way it did, for Mexican reports to emerge before the FA and indeed the Mexican FA had even been notified, is just a huge source of embarrassment for FIFA. as it is, as we say these plans have been abandoned the kick-off stated it is Thomas Tuchel will be relieved about that because they prepare very meticulously for these games the fans who are flying in who were fearful that because they were arriving on the day of the game that they may now miss it given all the money they've spent to be at this iconic game at the Azteca they're going to be relieved I feel a little sad for the people the children back in the UK in particular, my kids among them, who were very excited that they were now going to be able to watch the game, because of course it was going to be at 1am UK time.

3:48Indeed, it is now at 1am UK time on Monday morning. So I feel sorry for them. Excuse me. But yeah, just a mad few hours. Ended up reporting from a plane to Houston in the end. Houston, I should say, not Houston. Yeah, absolutely bonkers. Rarely in my eight World Cups have I had to cover a story quite like that. So as Matt says there, the kids are off to bed and the pubs will be busy. Matt's summing up one of the more remarkable stories of his career. Then just an hour later, around about then, I found myself stood in my living room with my hands on my head in disbelief. Sidney Lopez Cabral had just scored one of the great goals of this tournament, maybe one of the great World Cup goals ever.

4:38go and check it out this morning if you've not seen it already that goal put Kate Verde level at 2-2 with Argentina a truly incredible moment and though Argentina went on to win 3-2 in extra time Kate Verde put in another incredible performance I cannot begin to tell you how close they were to one of the great shocks of all time and proving if it was in any doubt it is no longer. They are the story of this World Cup. Paul Hurst was there for us at the ground and he sent me these thoughts on what he saw. Hiya Tom, just got back to the hotel in Miami and well what a night, what a game. It was just something that I didn't see coming with Argentina.

5:22The first three group stage games, they were so good, they were almost flawless, just really worked hard for each other and then Messi was coming up with goods as well but today at the start of the second half they just just gave up a little bit they just sort of thought they'd they coast through the second half and then after after Messi had scored the opener obviously but it just wasn't like that Cape Verde is so good on the counter-attack so good down the wings and Argentina are so vulnerable at full-back I think I mentioned this in the preview podcast a few weeks ago they're so vulnerable at full-back they just not got the the skill there with Medina and Molina at full-back and Cape Verde really profited from that they really targeted those full-back positions and the first equaliser was was a you know a great move from the right hand side two nutmegs involved which we all love to see and then even when Argentina were ahead again the the second call from Sidney Lopez Cabral was just probably the best goal of the tournament so far.

6:32Just pinged it into the top corner from 20 yards. And it was incredible scenes in the press box. The Argentinians are usually really kind of boisterous in there. And when they scored tonight, they were up and celebrating. But as soon as that second equaliser went in, it was just complete silence in there. And it was complete silence in the stadium as well. because everyone was shocked by what happened. Yeah, unfortunately in the end, because I really did think it would, I quite fancied it to go to penalties, wanted it to go to penalties. Argentina came up with a winner, Cristian Romero, heading in from close range, from a messy corner in extra time.

7:13But even after that, Cape Verde just didn't give up. They kept throwing everything at Argentina and they were equals for a large part of this match. The goalkeeper was just outstanding, 40 years old, making a number of top saves like that against Messi and some of the other attacking flair that Argentina have got. So, all in all, very disappointing, very sad for Cape Verde that it's come to an end this way, that they came so close and Argentina will go home tonight thinking they were very lucky to still be in this competition. they're up against Egypt next and they can't afford to be as lax when they face them in the next round so a lot of thinking for Lionel Scaloni Kate Verde, honestly what a story the party is not over my shirt is on order and I might have bought one for Gregor Robertson as well lads, I will never forget you you might be out but I am a Kate Verde fan for the rest of my life the night had begun with penalty shootout drama as Egypt edged past Australia bit of drama in this one as well Australia changed their goalkeeper made a goalkeeper sub just before the shootout took place but had absolutely no effect James Geerbrandt saw this all unfold and he sent me this report just after full time well I think ultimately it was a deserved victory for Egypt I think they were the stronger team I think if you looked at the team sheets they obviously had players of the calibre that Australia don't really have.

8:54Having said that, Australia made it a difficult game for them in some respects. Pat Beach, the Australia goalkeeper who's had a really strong tournament, was brilliant really, and he had a terrific save right at the end of normal time. and at that point Mo Salah hadn't really done very much but he obviously seemed to be playing well within himself and due to you know I think a hamstring injury but it was sort of amazing how he kind of you know at a point where he really looked kind of exhausted and not really fit and you're thinking how is he going to get to another 30 minutes but he weirdly kind of got better and better and better as the game went on, almost as if kind of summoning it sort of through muscle memory somehow.

9:45And in extra time was sort of really kind of like quite influential, although he wasn't able to create that Egypt winner. And then the decision to sub off Pat Beach and put on Matt Ryan. I'd just been in the press conference with Tony Popovich. And to be fair to him he he he gave a you know a very good you know honest uh answer on that question which was just the he felt matt ryan's experience was was the reason why he made that call he said that you know pat beach is a young keeper and matt ryan's very experienced keeper all of which was true but it just seemed to be a very odd decision in the moment with beach playing so well he's three inches taller than matt ryan as well and you know bringing in i've always felt that bringing in a keeper cold like that is very you know it's a difficult position for the keeper to be in just as difficult as as you know bringing a taker on cold like that when you're not in the rhythm of the game and it was a it was a call that didn't really pay off the two center backs missed for australia as well including the 18 year old herrington so yes possibly australia will have some regrets about the way they approached that shootout.

11:01I do think that if we're looking at which team is going to potentially give the winner of Argentina v Cap Verde a better game, it probably is Egypt. So maybe in that sense, the right team went through. And it's just coming up to 5am. The final match of the round of 32 has just finished. Colombia beating Ghana 1-0. Ghana again, not for the first time in this tournament, offering very little. Now, I know some teams just don't have it in their locker, but I think when you've got Antoine Semenya in your team, you could offer a little bit more than they do under Carlos Keros. Colombia, very good, well worth the win, and probably should have scored more.

11:40That means, listeners, we have our completed round of 16 matches. Very, very exciting indeed. Later today, Saturday, 6 o 'clock, we get going. Canada against Morocco and then at 10 o 'clock Paraguay against France the meanest defense against the most mesmerizing attack then Sunday Brazil against Norway oh what a tie that will be Gregor Robertson has written a piece about the excitement he is feeling about Gabriel against Erling Haaland the World Cup edition and then 1am Mexico England it is 1am if you're planning a slightly madder's trip to the pub and you booked a day off on Monday as Matt Launton says that is still back on unfortunately you do have to tell the kids that they are off to bed then Portugal Spain god the crackers just keep coming don't they Portugal Spain 8 p.m on Monday the 6th of July early hours of that night USA against Belgium this will be a really intriguing clash Belgium I must confess slightly frustrating me in this tournament and they were very lucky to get past Senegal I thought USA though without Florian Balogun as I was discussing with Peter Rutzler on a recent show that'll make things very difficult for them.

12:54Then finishing off, we've got Argentina, Egypt and Switzerland against Colombia. That completes the last 16 at this World Cup. What a tournament it has been and loads more drama still to come. I might be sleep deprived, but I'm absolutely loving every minute of it. A dramatic evening then, and that is without, I've got to say, listeners, the 20 minutes that I spent locked out of my flat at around 2am. First major cock-up of this tournament, I've got to say, but thank goodness for having a baby daughter who is always awake and ensuring that my wife could let me back in, which is why I'm able to be recording this podcast for you now.

13:29Before all that drama, though, I did catch up with Martin Samuel to get his thoughts on England, France and the tournament as a whole. That chat will follow just after this break.

13:54welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times these are our daily world cup shows i'm tom clark and in part two i'm delighted to say that i'm joined by the times chief correspondent martin samuel uh martin loads to discuss loads to catch up on um since the last time you were on the show um but let's start with england uh you were there in atlanta for that win against Congo. We've had Johnny on since then. Myself and Gregor and James Gearbrand have been on. A few listeners have been in touch. And I'd say the mood is split between, well done for getting through a knockout game.

14:29It's the World Cup. It's about winning. And a few other people, Gregor, you will not be surprised to be here as one of them, being quite critical of Thomas Tuchel's side and that performance, particularly in the first half. A couple of days on now, how are you reflecting on it? Mate, look, tournament football's about getting through and they got through. but it's also about playing well. The biggest cliche, and I've heard it at so many of these competitions, is, oh, well, no one will mind if we win the World Cup playing badly. Nobody wins the World Cup playing badly. No one. No one has ever won the World Cup playing badly.

15:03You have got to turn up eventually, otherwise you'll walk into one. And it's happened to England in 2006. 2006, oh, no-one will mind if we win the World Cup playing badly. And then we play Portugal and we lost in a penalty shootout. But we were going to get beat by somebody sooner or later. And I've seen it. I've seen it at many, many tournaments, this idea that you can somehow, not fluke, fluke would be a wrong word, but you could, you know, even in the last Euros, if you think about it, England didn't really play well, played quite well against Holland, against the Netherlands in the semi-final.

15:45But then they come against Spain in the final and Spain beat them. So, you know, you've got to turn up. I don't feel, apart from one half against Croatia, that England have really turned up at this tournament yet. It's been the usual sort of quite painful at times, watching, other times very nervous. and that's that's how it felt against DR Congo and then you know but what England have got is they've got one or two absolutely exceptional footballers that would get into just about any team here just about maybe even France uh maybe even you know Harry Kane would edge somebody out of that French line, I don't know.

16:33But he's a fabulous, fabulous striker. And the way he decided the match in Atlanta, what you look at there and think, well, we're never really out, unless we're like three goals down or whatever, we're never really out of it. Because while we've got this guy, there's always a chance that no matter how ordinary we may think we're playing, this guy could pull us out of the hole. Jude Bellingham to a certain extent as well. I thought Jude Bellingham was good against DR Congo. I don't know why no one calls him Dr Congo. Do you know why anyone won't call him Dr Congo? Because it seems such an obvious bit of japery.

17:17So, yeah, so that's where we are. That's where we are. You've got to get better. If you don't get better, you're going out. It might not be this round, but it'll be at some stage. If you don't get better, you'll go out. But you're in the last 16. I'm watching the last 16, and if you've got Harry Kane, you've got Jude Bellingham, you've got Declan Rice, you've got a puncher's chance. You've always got that puncher's chance because you've always got that possibility that one of those guys defines the game for you. There is a chance, one chance, and it falls to that guy, and that guy buries it for you.

17:51your piece after the game talked about harry kane quite rightly but it did frame it very interestingly around thomas tuchel and you know the security of his job you've talked a lot um both on this podcast and in the times pages about thomas tuchel being this kind of gone for hire until he got a new contract with the job of winning the world cup i've reflected really you know pondered really interestingly on the live event we did the podcast we did with times readers and subscribers a lot of kind of skepticism around Tuchel's position that night I think from a lot of people in the audience you talked in this piece about Kane's not only saving England but saving Tuchel's job going into Mexico and round of 16 it is his job still on the line do you think I talked with Johnny about no the England's progression and it felt like Johnny settled on okay well this World Cup quarterfinals against either Norway or Brazil is about par Would you agree?

18:47Do you think going out to Mexico would put Thomas Tuchel's job under pressure? No. Two things can be true. This podcast we call Two Things Can Be True. One, I don't think there is a chance that the FA would sack Thomas Tuchel. If Thomas Tuchel was to leave the FA's employee, it would be his decision. It wouldn't be. Mark Bullingham is not going to make that. He can't believe he's working with Thomas Tuchel. He can't believe that England have got this manager. So there is absolutely no chance. England don't sack managers after World Cups anyway. If you think about it, Roy Hodgson's job was guaranteed, I think it is within two minutes of England going out of the 2014 World Cups.

19:32because we didn't go out on the day we lost to Uruguay. We went out the next day when Italy failed to beat Costa Rica. And then we went out. And within two minutes of the final whistle, the FA had issued a statement guaranteeing Roy Hodgson's job. Fabio Capello didn't go in 2010 after our backsides handed to us in a high hat by Germany. Sven didn't go in 2002 when we considered reaching the quarterfinals. quite a success. Glenn in 1998, we don't sack after the World Cup, nor should we. Nor should we. If you're going to have Thomas Tuchel, what you've got to think is that it will be better the next time.

20:21I think there's elements of the squad, of selection, that absolutely mystify me. But I think, you know, you've got to think, I always thought Capella would be better at his second tournament. Yeah. He never got the chance for that. But I always thought he would be better at his second tournament, that he would learn more, that he would know more, that he would, certain things he prioritised the first time, he wouldn't prioritise this time. Certain things that he overlooked the first time, he would be on a lot tighter the second time. I think that's probably true of Tuchel as well. I think he's learning as much as anybody.

21:03Having said that, if you employ a guy to get the second star on the badge and all this old nonsense and you get knocked out by Mexico or in the quarterfinals, well, then you can't say that's par. I don't agree with you on that. I don't think that's par. No, that's over par. That is definitely over par because you employed him, You know, he didn't take over. You think of Southgate taken over after we got beat by Iceland. Thomas Tuchel has taken over the tournament after we've reached the final of the European Championships and lost to Spain with about five minutes to go. Yeah. He's taken over a team that lost the 2020 European Championships on a penalty shootout.

21:48Yeah. He's not taken over, you know, this isn't training the overs that he's managing here. So, no, I don't think it would be a great success or par or well done you know we're certainly on the right track because actually this wasn't even meant to be a two tournament job this was meant to be a one tournament job so the minute they made it a two tournament job they completely changed the parameters of what success were uh what success was because success was winning the tournament and it was win win or bust i can remember when tukul came in it was win win or see you later that was it yeah and now it's all you know oh How could we possibly have expected to play at altitude?

22:29I don't know if Mexico's got bigger in the last, if it's got taller in the last couple of years, because I always thought Mexico was at altitude. It hasn't grown as far as I can see. So I don't see why suddenly altitude is the reason, oh, well, how could we possibly have expected to win the tournament whilst playing at altitude? Well, we're always playing at altitude, mate. But do I expect Tuchel to be dismissed by the FA? Absolutely 100 % not. Should he be dismissed by the FA? No, because they've changed the parameters. They have, you know, no, not at all. You've got this guy in, you keep the guy.

23:02Truly huge day for Gregor Robertson's catchphrase now. It's reached Manhattan, Martin. You've taken both things can be true all the way to Manhattan. A huge day for the branding of the game podcast. You mentioned the squad and the makeup of the team. It's been such a big topic at this tournament. I mean, it is kind of remarkable. I reflected on this with Johnny and a man of your experience will know even better. it is kind of crazy to have played four games with so many changes and to be going into a round of 16 game not really knowing what the best team is yes carrie kane yes declan rice yes dude bellingham and yes i think elliot anderson has had a very good tournament so far but after that it's all a bit confused isn't it i mean one of the big topics is declan rice and his position in the team with the right back slot another player that you've been quite rightly praising for a long time england would lose something in midfield if he were moved to right back wouldn't they yeah i think they would yeah i think they would no i think i thought paul joss made a brilliant observation um the other day that if you looked at the team against uh the possible team against mexico if we're all sitting there with a piece of paper and going right this is the how many players are actually guaranteed their place how many times you go right well there's jude billingham and he will play at number 10 and there's nothing that could possibly change But there is, because if they moved Eklund Rice out, then you'd have to change Bellingham's position.

24:25And I think Paul came up with, was it four players or five players with Pickford? He said, well, Pickford's not changing. Harry Kane is not changing. And then so much of the rest of it. Elliot Anderson is not changing. Mark Guehi is not changing. And now you're bigger. Or Nico O 'Reilly. But you're talking about four or five players. You're talking about four or five players that you can actually look at and go, well, there is no way anybody but this guy plays here. Because if he does have to change Bellingham to play alongside Anderson and Morgan Rodgers comes in, that takes away a guy that you would have thought is one of the absolute mainstays of this England team.

25:11If you did end up pushing that, you know, what was it called? The do or die. You're turning over like the do or die card in cold. it's the ball game if you've ever played it and putting Declan Rios at right back well then what what does that say about the way that the squad was formulated or whatever you know and you can't even say oh but he's had some bad luck because it's sort of foreseeable bad luck you know it's sort of foreseeable bad luck you know if you go above you know if you walk out in a thunderstorm someone with a piece of lead piping over your head, you don't really go, oh, it's ever such bad like he got struck by lightning, that chap.

25:50You know, you'd go, yeah, he was sort of risking it, really. I mean, and that's sort of Rhys James' hamstrings, isn't it? You know, that's, you know, not bad luck that Rhys James' hamstrings. Yeah, every England fan has said the same. Yeah, he said shock horror. Who saw that coming? So, but you wouldn't be moving Declan Rice to right back. Who would you be going for, do you think? Do you think you'd stick with Spence or go Konza? No, I think you'd have to go Konza. I think you'd have to go Konza. I mean, they're best players on the left. Yeah, Julian Quinonez, he's had a great tournament and he's very quick, physical.

26:23Quick, physical top scorer in the Saudi Arabia Pro League and we can all make our own judgments on that achievement, but it does mean he scored more goals, say, than Ivan Toni whilst starting on the left. So he's going to come fly. He's won man of the match in two of their four matches so far as well. The first one and the last one. So he's like the opening game and the last, so two of their, if you're ranking them in order of importance or whatever, the first game and the last game, the two big ones, man of the match both times. He's going to be flying at the right back. So Esri Connors doesn't seem the worst solution to me.

27:02And then you play John Stones and Mark Guhe and your worry is John Stones played against Croatia and hasn't been invited to start since. because he looked like a guy that had been short of football. Well, scary premonitions for England fans of England's tournament ending in Mexico with Dan Byrne, with Dan Byrne on his knees. Mate, mate, I think we'll get through. Yeah, do you? I don't think Mexico are quite... Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. I don't think Mexico are quite the team that everyone thinks. I might be wrong. I think you're right. They've not been tested yet, I think, I would certainly say, having watched the games myself.

27:42I think they had quite a pedestrian group and they were excellent in the first half an hour against Ecuador. They really blew them away, but partly with the home crowd behind them. I think if England can, if it's, you know, we hate this idea that the game is now played in four quarters, but it is a sad reality of this tournament. If it's nil-nil at the first hydration break, I think England would be in a good position because Mexico tired for the rest of the game. So yeah, I think it's interesting, isn't it? I think a lot of people are making a lot of altitude and of Mexico's performance so far.

28:12Well, that's what you don't know, isn't it? That's what you don't know, Tom. I've never been to the Azteca. So I really don't know how, you know, I know the stories, the altitude stories. I know the great story about Maradona and Argentina in La Paz where they have to play La Paz in his qualifying, in La Paz, they have to play Bolivia in his qualifying, tournament i think for the i want to say for the 2010 and maradona had shall we say an individual approach to uh management and people were saying about uh going there and you know acclimatizing although i know the accepted sport and science wisdom now which i will be following is get there as late as you can and you know get the hell out yeah people saying are you going to go get yourself acclimatized it at maradon's nah nah nah nah nah you know i've played in the pairs i've played you know bolivia before you know basically we get there we kick their asses we come home again and you know that's what we do with argentina so they they say oh you're going to have a training said nah we're not going to have a training session you know we're just going to go we're going to see the ground you know so they know what the ground's like and then get a good night's sleep and come there, keep your arses going, and that's what we'll do.

29:31So anyway, so they play the game, they get beat 6-0. They get beat 6-0, half-time there's about three players on stretchers, on oxygen. I want to say Batastuta, I want to say it was Batastuta, but it was carnage, it was absolute carnage. Now I know La Paz is a lot higher than Mexico City, I do understand that. But, you know, altitude is I was saying to someone the other day, I've been at Joe Berg, I've never seen a problem, I've never felt a problem there, I've never had a problem there. It's about 2 ,000 metres higher than that. Oh, okay, that might make a difference, I don't know. So I don't know what to expect either.

30:13So it's very hard to factor in the crowd, very hard to factor in the altitude because you experience neither. I just look at our team and their team and think, well, I fancy that, I fancy our team. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of Mexico fans will be thinking the same thing. Martin, just two more things before I let you go and get cracking with your day. As well as the privilege of travelling around seeing England, you've also had the privilege, as we were discussing on the phone the other night, of watching this France team in action, in the flesh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, me and Gregor were chatting the other night, trying to work out what there is else to say about Kylian Mbappe and Michael Alise and the lads, but you managed to find words to write a brilliant match report about them.

30:52It's a treat, isn't it, to watch them in the flesh? It's wonderful. What I like about it is that he's played them all. He's played everybody. This guy that everyone said was too conservative and didn't know how to get all these players, didn't know how to make it work, has found a way of making it work. It turns out Didier Deschamps, a World Cup winner, knows something about football. Who knew? And it's just great to watch. It's great to watch. But what they have got, and I think it's a big, I know we were talking the other day about everyone being the best version of themselves and I think it's a very good observation that Kylian Mbappé turns up and it's almost like you're looking at him and thinking yeah, yeah, yeah, this is absolutely the player that you don't always see for Real Madrid he's been fantastic sort of drawing the comparisons with England where sometimes you would think where is that guy when he puts on an England shirt where is that guy we see from Man City or Chelsea or whatever so you know there there is that where everyone is he is the best version of themselves but there is also this this ability to change and that's the one thing that worries me about england is that you know the changes that we make you're sort of like for like all the time you're like for like whereas the other day you saw you know france's late substitutions the game was one it didn't really make any difference.

32:22But, you know, you've got Cherokee coming on. You've got Mateta coming on. And then suddenly you can go, right, here's a new set of problems. You just, you know, you just had Mbappé and Dembele and Alise and Barcola, maybe Desiree Due as well for Barcola. And now you've got, you know, an old conventional battery man striker, but a very good technical one. And you've got Ryan Cherky, who's going to move in ways and take up positions that you didn't expect. And so it's such versatility. And, you know, if England are not going to win it, and obviously that is one's allegiance, but if England aren't going to win it, you want faster winning.

33:11You know, I want faster winning because it's the best football. You know, they produce these guys. They produce so many great footballers in that country. you know and you can only admire them you can only yeah absolutely quite right to pick out ryan jerky i'm really enjoying his 10 minute cameos just kind of walking about the pitch coming on when they're three and four one up strutting about doing a few nutmegs yeah but one day he might have to do it but one day he might have to do it to win the game one day you know and it could be it could be uh it could be up next um yeah it's breakdown paraguay maybe looking like morocco is yeah paraguay yeah or you know morocco in the next one if i get through you know so one day that could be that could be the decided substitution that right yeah we bring we can't break this down let's bring turkey and let's see how we get on there and that change up is is is fascinating final question martin obviously uh been out there three weeks now you arrived uh staying in manhattan that's where you're based and but traveling around no i'm not based in Manhattan I'm based in New Jersey I'm a coach there's Manhattans out there it's because I can see it through your window that's why I can see it through your window yeah yeah yeah but in terms of traveling traveling around the country what's the kind of mood like and what's your kind of perception of the tournament it's about a week since we last spoke it feels like it's all going very well it feels like it's you know a tournament that's largely joyous yeah no it is it is it's look it's it's a World Cup and World Cup always come World Cups always come with their own logistical issues.

34:48And in a country as big as this, you know, it will be like that. It will be, you know, there will be logistical issues. But, oh, the football's great. And the three hosts have all thrived, really. Mexico, Canada, and the United States have all thrived. And I think that's very important for a tournament. I can remember being in South Africa. I think I said, did I say this the last time? Yeah. yeah i did and and and they went out and um and when they went out you just it just felt like that and so this is this place is is is buzzing and if if you uh i went out uh the other night got back from i mean all ones into one a little bit got back from atlanta and um dumped the stuff and went out and found a bite to eat and watched the america game in a bar and it was great it was great everyone very very enthusiastic everyone up for it um you know if you if you're viewing the uh the tournament through fox news you are rather sick of the uh whatever the last american win is because it plays and plays and is analyzed and talked about and this and then you're like right okay you've won a game it's it's great you know we're all delighted but you know but but we would be the same if this was a home world cup if we ever get one i wish i don't think we ever will but it is a home world cup and if we were doing well like america are doing well we you know we we'd be obsessing about it and driving everyone mad and all the scottish people would be complaining and i would understand that so they're loving it that's great it's great it's july the 4th tomorrow and taylor swift is getting married sort of somewhere over there you've got your suit ready got your seat ready martin well i think my invitation must be lost in the post because it hasn't turned up yet but she assures me it's coming and uh who was the last person who was the last rock star to get married at madison square gardens here's a question oh good quiz question i've not been doing any quiz questions on the podcast this world cup i'm not sure i'm not sure okay sly stone got married on stage at madison square gardens in the middle of a gig got married in the middle of a gig at Madison Square Gardens.

37:10Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty cool. Yeah, pretty cool. There you go. Pretty cool. Pretty cool. Well, I hope you get that invite just in time, Martin. We'll hear all about the World Cup. I'd rather have been at Sly Stones, to be fair. Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Well, we'll catch up all about that wedding and some more of the football next time you're on. But Martin, Samuel, thank you very much for joining me on this latest episode of the Game Podcast World Cup Daily. Thank you to the rest of the Times team who joined me in part one. We will be back with another episode tomorrow. We'll see you then.