WORLD CUP DAY 24: England braced for Azteca and France survive a kicking

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1:13Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 24 of our daily World Cup shows and England's clash with Mexico is just hours away. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined by Gregor Robertson on today's show. We will preview that huge round of 16 match in the Azteca Stadium and discuss Morocco's win against Canada and France's escape mission, surviving some atrocious behaviour from Paraguay and the referee to reach the next round. But first, let's talk England. A massive, massive game for Thomas Tuchel and his side. I caught up with our Chief Sports Correspondent Matt Lawton who is in Mexico to ask him about England's preparations.

1:55Matt, great to chat to you again joining us from Mexico. We're going to get into altitude and vibes and feelings and everything in just a second but we're recording this on Saturday evening and you are just about to break a story on the Times website which by the time this podcast is out will I'm sure have been well read by Times readers. Tell us more about it. Yeah, it's not the biggest story in the world, but we've been told that Rhys James will not be joining the other England players for the proper session this afternoon. It's supposed to be a session at four o 'clock Mexico City time. Thomas Tuchel, as we know, James ended that game against Ghana with one of his troublesome hamstrings giving him a problem.

2:41he's missed the last two games missed the Panama game missed the Congo game and before that Congo game Tuchel did say that he said he was close and we rather hope that he would be he would be fit for this one but it doesn't mean he's out of the game but the one thing I know for certain is that he's not participating in what will be their last proper training session before the game against Mexico tomorrow night and that suggests to me that he uh he's not ready if you're going to take a gamble on him it's going to be tomorrow night but it doesn't sound terribly positive yeah i think a lot of england fans probably not expecting reach james but a really interesting development because as you say if he's going to play you probably want to be part of that training session how's the rest of the team looking been conversations around deck and rice's fitness obviously in the past couple of days this is a huge game for england they need they need all their best players don't they how's Declan Rice looking what's the latest that you've heard yeah I'm hearing he's okay um the fact of the matter is as I understand it his problem that he does experience these issues in his hamstring but it's all back related it's all sciatic uh and as as a veteran of sciatic problems for about the last 25 years uh I think that's why he can keep playing because it's not actually damage to his hamstring it's a nerve issue that sets off the hamstring so I imagine what he's getting is kind of cramping his hamstrings, which is why you sometimes see him limping.

4:09But it's a back problem that can be managed. These things can be managed. So he's fine. The one thing Tuchel has said is that he will not be playing at right back. I think it's a really interesting question. I was having a text exchange yesterday with Phil Neville, our columnist, and he would be inclined to go to a back five for this game. and I wonder if in the absence of James if he's not playing Rice at right back and if he's got concerns you know if Kwanzaa still isn't ready we don't know if he is or not for certain just yet we might know in a couple of hours if he's training but you know I don't think Jed Spence is up to the job there I think he's struggled therefore I wonder if he went to a bat five Tom whether he would look at maybe playing Saka on the right as a wing-back with Stones, Konza and Dort Gey.

5:04And that way you keep Anderson and Rice in the middle. You have Saka as a wing-back and then you play Kane, Belliam, obviously, and then either Rashford or Gordon. And that's how you get all those players on the pitch and give yourselves a little bit more security. but that that's just you know that was kind of phil's idea um i'm taking it seriously because in his last column before the congo game when the team came out i realized he'd basically called it absolutely spot on um so so so yeah phil former former england women's coach she's picking the same team as thomas tuchel at the moment so let's see let's see if phil's right this time yeah it'll be really interesting when that team is announced it's an interesting prospect as well I'm sure listeners wouldn't mind if England mixed it up as long as they get through.

5:58I mean, this is a big, big moment, isn't it, for England and Thomas Tuchel? It does feel slightly to me, having been part with all of you guys in all the prep and all the previews, both in the written word and on this podcast, it kind of feels like England's tournament starts now. It both starts and potentially ends now with this game, doesn't it? You know, Mexico last 16 in the Azteca was talked about for so long when people have used the times predictor and mapped out their routes to the final and things. So if England win this, it's suddenly, wow, quarterfinals. But it's a big if, isn't it?

6:32It is a big if, and it's a massive game. I've been very lucky in my career to have been to some monstrously big games from the 99 Champions League final to Liverpool in Istanbul, covered three World Cup finals as a chief football writer. Obviously, they're a bit of a different role these days, but I've been very fortunate. But this one feels to me like one of the biggest games I'm ever going to have been at as a journalist. And I was sat with colleagues, I think I turned to Hamza last week, and said to him when England were 1-0 down, I said, I'm not ready to go back yet. I really want this game in Mexico against Mexico.

7:16It's an absolutely huge moment in English football history for me, but also a huge challenge. You know, I think we were very much ahead of the game in writing about the altitude issues here. And I think that does make it a huge challenge. And as I said in my piece the other day, one of the toughest challenges England have ever faced. And I certainly think it's the most difficult game they will have until, well, to get there, they reach the final and meet this French team. I think France are the best team in the tournament and it would take something very, very special for England to beat this France team, I would suggest.

7:57But I think this will be tougher than a quarterfinal against Brazil or even a semifinal against Argentina. What was the draw to play out that way? I think, you know, yes, I take the point that Mexico's record in this stadium was it two defeats in 88. you know we have to factor in the fact that they generally don't play top teams um because they often play in central central american teams but there's no escaping the fact that mexico looked good in this tournament and however fit these guys are and i take piers morgan's point on on x earlier that he's getting slightly tired of watching portly british journal british and journalists plodding around local parks trying to tell us how hard it is to be for england players we are not elite athletes uh and i've uh i've quietly put my camera away um work for when for when i do go out for a run a bit later thank you piers you've stopped me you've saved me from myself there um but anyway but no it is i you know i've written a piece for the sunday times where I'm talking to elite sports people about what it's like up here.

9:12And it is hard. And the thing about it, Tom, is one of the things I was chatting to the guys on the plane here last night. It's not just about fitness. You know, it might be that, for argument's sake, Jude Belliam's the fittest guy in the England squad, right? For argument's sake. I don't know if that's true or not. but he might suffer here more than Declan Rice does yeah you know I I've talking to colleagues you know I was talking to somebody at the FA this morning they've had a splitting headache since they got here I've had a very mild headache since I got here it feels better now than it did when I went to bed at sort of one o 'clock this morning and I only went to go the one o 'clock because we only arrived at midnight yeah um so so you know everyone's physiology is different and and people might respond differently so we might see as i say we might see harry kane absolutely bent over double after 15 minutes whereas um you know esri konza looks absolutely fine uh jordan pigford will be standing there wondering what all the fuss is about because he won't be running around at all but but you know it's um yeah it affects different people in different ways but i think that does make it such a hard challenge as will the atmosphere you know i think it's going to be phenomenal to be honest you know the azteca i've never been the azteca can't wait to get there gonna go this afternoon for the press conference but yeah it's look it It feels big.

10:42Even though it's last 16, it feels like a moment in time. Yeah, absolutely. And I should say, if you search Matt's name on the Times website, you'll find not only that piece he's just mentioned, but lots of pieces on altitude and the effects that it can have on top athletes. Matt has really been ahead of the curve, as he says on that one. And crucially, no videos of him running, as he mentioned there. Matt, I'll let you go, because as you say, you've got to get ready for this press conference and things. Just finally, what's your gut saying? You mentioned in a couple of your answers and on this pod, you know, your experience in these big tournament moments.

11:14England of recent years have found ways to win these games under Gareth Southgate. England of yesteryear found ways to lose these games. It's really on a knife edge, isn't it? My gut says to me, England will find a way to win this game with the quality players they have. What do you think? On paper, on paper, yeah. you know the mere fact you know with the greatest respect to all the other players and in particular people like Declan Rice a team that has Harry Kane and Jude Belliam can beat anybody in this tournament you know they are that good you know Tuchel is blessed with two absolute world class talents if not three or four you know and as I say I would bracket Declan in that group really because I think he's you know he's mega as a central midfielder.

12:04And for that reason, England should be able to find a way. And I guess what we will find, if they do it, we will discover two things. We will discover that unlike some of my colleagues who are, as I say, plodding around Mexico City at the moment, that, you know, however fit we think these guys are, they are at a level, you know, an incredible level of fitness. um but but secondly um that they just have tremendous fighting spirit to actually overcome the conditions and actually because a lot of it's psychological you know there'll be a slight shock and they'll experience it today when they train there'll be a shock to the system that they'll do one run and they'll think crikey you know you know i was talking of for this piece that i've done for the sunday times you know i was talking to john barnes this week about it and yes he only came on as a 74th minute sub.

13:01But, you know, after those runs that he made that people will remember, you know, putting the cross for the goal for Lineker, putting another cross that had Lineker got on the end of it would have been an equaliser and taken the game into extra time. But yeah, it really hit them. And remember, the 86 team had that pre-tournament training camp in Colorado, you know, house two training camp. They were much better prepared than this England team. because of the circumstances of the tournament.

13:34So it's going to be hard, but it will be a real measure of them as athletes and as competitors if they win this game. Yeah, really interesting. Matt Lawson, we'll let you go. Thanks very much for joining us and we'll hope to get some live reaction from you from the ground on tomorrow's podcast as well. So we'll chat then. Pleasure. Cheers, Tom. Gregor, welcome to the show. Half midnight. we're desperate to get stuck into France and that referee but I'm afraid I have to ask you about England first, lots of listeners will want to know, I know you've got the tequila at the ready, you've got your mariachi band ready to join you for tomorrow night, you've got your sombrero Don't Tom, you'll get me in trouble We've got to talk England If you don't put that sombrero on for tomorrow night's recording I'm going to be very upset But a couple of really interesting points made by Matt there Firstly about the big question right back Julian Quinone is one of the players of the tournament so far and Mexico's best player scores some brilliant goals that is a key area of the pitch Matt saying in his discussion with Phil Neville the Times columnist about the suggestion it always comes up at every tournament it should be on the bingo card shouldn't it England are the back three poor Saka as well

14:45Gregor Robertson: it's always seems to be poor old Saka who's getting sacrifices poor old Bacayo stuck out as a wing back thoughts though? personally I wouldn't I wouldn't think that would be a good idea. I understand these things can be slightly imbalanced as well so just because he would be nominally fielded as a wing back doesn't mean he would have to play like a wing back for several reasons. One is he's not he's clearly not 100 % fit so playing him in a position where you've got more defensive responsibility at high altitude and all the rest doesn't sound the wisest move to me but secondly Thomas Tuchel spent a long time trying to define what he wants his England team to look like and what he wants them to be and to throw all that out the window because you've got an issue at right back and it's an issue but it's not an insolvable issue you have options they're just not the options that you had like 12 months ago or you thought you had or it's in a position of the field that you've normally had such extraordinary strengths so it feels unusual and it feels a little bit like a self-inflicted wound.

15:55Gregor Robertson: That being said, Ezri Conte is a very good option and Jed Spence is a really good defender. Yes, he's having a challenging World Cup overall and he's been questioned a little bit but he's a very, very good defender and if you're, you know, we said this on a recent show after the win against Congo, I personally think he's probably their best 1v1 defender out of the options available but Ejikon says is a kind of reliable solid citizen so I think he probably will lean towards that and bring him back in John Stones for some experience so that's what I think Tuchel will do and I think it's probably the right thing to do as well Interesting I was pondering this game and obviously thinking about some of Matt's comments in my chat with him earlier and I know we don't like to talk about football in four quarters now but that is unmistakably what it is at this tournament and I think this game probably does come down to the first quarter of this match before that first hydration break having watched the Mexico game against Ecuador they were absolutely amazing in that first 23 minutes 24 minutes or whatever it is the crowd are absolute the definition of raucous and probably beyond that it's going to be a remarkable sight even watching on the telly in the early hours what do you what would you gut say about this game you know where you're leaning in terms of how it might play out.

17:13Gregor Robertson: I think England are a far better team than Mexico. Mexico, there's a lot has been built up around this game for obvious reasons. Yes, it's a knockout game. There's echoes of a game England played there in the past that probably everyone's heard about. There's also everything about the altitude, which we're hearing an awful lot about, like maybe slightly too much about, to be really honest. And then there's the crowd and the fact that it's a host nation. So there's a lot around the game that makes it a kind of a bit of an intimidating place to walk into but if you remove all that england are a far better team and mexico have grown into this competition and you see you've seen them like there's the fact that they've not considered any goals the fact that they've won all four games that uh certain players have really improved as the tournament's uh has kind of developed all of that kind of adds to this idea that mexico are are going to be this monumental force to try and get past England are a better team than Mexico so I think you're right, I think that first quarter is really important about, I mean yes there's a scientific reason for that I think you kind of, your body acclimatises in those early stages as well a little bit to the altitude but also just to try and kind of dampen that crowd and that force of energy that they have there and start to play England's own game and then if that happens I think I'm going to win the game Yeah, a late night you're going to be all jokes aside you got the tequila in you got some mates all your Scottish pals who you watch games with they're all piling round to the house to watch this one No, we're still still wallowing in our own misery after Scotland's exit so no I'll be I'll be up and watching but I'm probably struggling to stay awake sometimes Tom so give me some tips Yeah, well it's funny you should say that I mean I have written the Times World Cup newsletter tomorrow for any readers who might be joining me for the first time in a bit of late night World Cup action.

19:16I've got three tips for you Gregor. One, no boozing. As much as you might want to make yourself a margarita or get some tequila chasers going, don't do it. Because if you're not prepared for it, you don't want to have popped a bottle of wine and it's 2.30 and Jude Bellingham's just scored an overhead kick and you've missed it because you've nodded off. Secondly, if you want a replacement for the booze, I can heartily recommend some ice lollies. I have been absolutely hammering the ice lollies. It's been a bit hot, bit of a sugar hit and listen when can you say you've been sat on the couch eating a cornetto at one o 'clock in the morning it's it's a lovely treat so much so that i've actually been doing daft posts on my social media challenges about the ice lollies i've been eating each day and now my targeted ads the other day hit me with all the offers that are on at asda and sainsbury's so naturally i steamed straight in it worked we worked a treat um and my final sponsorship

20:00Gregor Robertson: sponsorship oh my god it's the game sponsored the game podcast sponsored by cornetto fabs do you know what i actually bought a box of fabs the other day i haven't had a fab for many a year and you know what they still absolutely slap they are absolutely banging and my final tip do not get ready for bed do not get ready for bed the worst moment i've had in this marathon effort to try and watch all the games and work through the night is morocco against netherlands i made the mistake of starting to clean my teeth when it was one nil and I was stood in my living room brushing my teeth as the cross went in and Issa Diop scored the equaliser and I mentally had checked out.

20:41And I had to go and I'd written the podcast intro. I'd got my note ready for Neil. I was like, great, bed at four, fantastic. I can get a couple of hours kit before the baby wakes up. Diop heads it in, extra time and penalties. I was struggling. I was flagging big time. So don't put your PJs on. Don't get ready for bed. Stay fully dressed. put the kettle on and you'll be fine this could be a long slog it could go to extra time and penalties so there's my top tips for staying awake and duly noted as well as england's big game uh which we are very excited for the other game tomorrow night is an absolute cracker brazil against norway um another game i'd say that was come too early in the competition this this one screams quarterfinal round of 16 i'm not quite sure it's fair brazil norway is a quarterfinal of the World Cup in every shape and form you have written a great piece about the great narrative of this game Erling Haaland against Gabriel that's on the Times website now but it is more than that isn't it it's more than that battle it's going to be a fascinating clash it is yes

21:45Gregor Robertson: I mean that battle is a big part of it because they're two two big figures who know each other very well and they've got a bit of history and it kind of even even in the the kind of Premier League title race running, it reached new heights when Haaland literally had his shirt ripped off his own back and Gabriel could have been sent off so that will be a fascinating subplot but I mean there's a lot about this, I mean Brazil are still being questioned I think in some quarters, although they've improved as the tournament's progressed, there's still doubts about the sort of legs they have in midfield and whether there's a sort of bit of a reliance on Carlo Ancelotti's sort of being a tactical mastermind or just someone who always finds a way to win and whether that is sustainable that kind of that seems to be the feeling and Norway it feels like there's more in them it feels like they're not ready to go home yet and you know I think Noosa on the wing is a real threat a huge threat from set plays Land of the Giants Haaland, Sorloth, Ayer at the back Sander Berg even and Martin Odegaard looks really fired up for the World Cup and yeah the last time they met as well it was in World Cup 1998 and Norway won so they've got that little bit of history as well on their side so it promises to be an absolute cracker because it's not really two teams who, I don't know, they don't really have a definitive style it's strange to say that about Brazil but it's true, they play every game as it comes and Norway have mixed up they've been direct at times and sometimes they try and control the game and other times they've been happy to let the opposition have the ball but they've always got that threat with Haaland I know it's a cliche but it's the truth and when it's him up against Gabriel as well it promises to be box office stuff I think It's going to be great fun we've mentioned Martin Urdegaard a couple of times on this podcast and I agree he's been absolutely fantastic and he's driving his energy I've just realised we've had the play in the Anfield in at the training ground we've had Wynn the dog I've realised what Mikel Arteta's next gimmick's going to be he's going to buy Martin Odegaard a drum he's going to get Martin Odegaard a drum isn't he?

24:04you know the whole Emirates do the rule never mind North London forever they're going to have Martin Odegaard with a drum in the centre circle aren't they? that would be an improvement keep an eye out next season Arsenal fans just before we go to a break Gregor I wanted a final word probably not a final word actually on this tournament because we'll be doing wrap-up shows and things on our mates Kate Verde what a staggeringly amazing performance it was against Argentina we were both messaging and we heard from Paul Hurst on yesterday's show I tried to do it justice on yesterday morning's show but staggering staggering we're about to talk about Paraguay in part two and how not to do the underdog approach this was how to do it wasn't it throughout the tournament to the point where they were going out and I was actually gutted on a footballing level not on a romantic level not on a storyline or narrative level on a purely footballing level I'm so sad they're not there anymore because they were fantastic to watch they were we've said it

25:05Gregor Robertson: so many times this is the story of the world cup uh the biggest and best and most exciting and engaging and engrossing story in the world cup and who would have thought it and it just I thought it had another extraordinary, extraordinary, remarkable twist. And it came so close. Like, you're right. It's not just, you know, you talk about a plucky underdogs and you talk about their energy and their fight and their unity and all these things. And there's been the individual stories, Vazinha, Pico Lopez, and, you know, all the players who've had pretty remarkable journeys even to get to this point.

25:43Gregor Robertson: All of that is actually a side issue. It's watching the way this team performs and the way they can change in a flash from being a team who's trying to, for a good reason, trying to kind of sit behind the ball, sit deep, sorry, and soak up pressure and play on the counter to being a team that kind of stretches, somehow manages to stretch the game against the best opponents in the world. Like you're talking about Spain, you're talking about Argentina. And suddenly they turn the game into a game of basketball against these teams. and it's just the bravery they have when they win the ball back and also the subs that Babista seems to be able to make you also think, you know, when you watch when you watch them in the first couple of games this is a great, you know, they've got a great group of players but there can't be much depth behind it but no, he's often made like three or four changes between games and in-games that have changed matches so it's been brilliant, absolutely brilliant and the scenes like when Cabral whipped in that goal and was running into the crowd to try and find his family and you're like there's still a game to play it was extraordinary stuff and I was just desperate for it to go to penalties just so there was a bit more drama and maybe Vazinha could get another 50 million Instagram followers but it wasn't to be and even the way they reacted at the end I think told a story this just wasn't like oh you know we've done well lads we've come this far you know well done well you know let's enjoy this moment nonetheless they were absolutely crestfallen they believed that he could have done something and they knew they came close to doing it so brilliant brilliant story yeah the shirts are on order hopefully they'll arrive before the end of the world cup so we can put them on for an end of see end of tournament sorry review show that will be on youtube just before we go to a break i've just had a message from listener andy arrive in my inbox made a couple of lovely points about the world cup fever that he is seeing in america he's in chicago but he's traveled around for some games he said the netherlands tunisia game the fever was mad there but an interesting note right on the end he says tom as a mexican american mexico is my team i'm incredibly neutral in watching practically any sport but mexico is the one team i'm completely irrational about this matchup with england is seen by mexican americans are so favorable for mexico and then he talks about the Azteca he says there's just the mysticism about the stadium my dad and many other Mexicans firmly believe that they could have won the 86 World Cup or at least reach the finals if they had played every match at the Azteca so there you go England fans that's probably the most ominous note that I've had so far never mind about the journalists talking about the altitude and Andy big respect as well for your 14 month old baby as well and watching the World Cup thank you for getting in touch it is time for a break but when we come back do not go anywhere because you've got two very upset podcasters about to absolutely lambast a shocking refereeing performance.

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30:06Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson with me. And Gregor, I can tell you, there's been a couple of times I've been sat in this living room during this summer, very excited to chat to you about various parts of this World Cup. This one is right up there because what we've just seen in France v Uruguay is one of the more remarkable things I've ever seen on a football pitch. and I've seen a lot of football in League One and below so that's quite a thing to say. Was it a Royal Rumble?

30:35Was it an MMA match? Who knows? Just before we get your thoughts, Ian Whittle was there for the Times and Sunday Times and he sent me these thoughts just after full-time. I'm just checking in from Philadelphia where we've just watched France advance to the quarterfinals in a game against Morocco after a 1-0 win over Paraguay in the last 16 game. It was, it has to be said, in a tournament that's given us a lot of memorable games so far one of the least memorable, if not the least memorable of the lot we've had so far. A lot of that down to Paraguay, who engaged in what we like to call the dark arts, a lot of negative play, a lot of petty fouls.

31:12I mean, I don't think there was ever an intent to, malicious intent to harm anyone, but there was a lot of petty stuff, a lot of verbals. Deschamps, the France manager after the game, was very upset with some of the comments that had been made in his direction from the Paraguay bench. so a lot of unpleasantness about against that you have to say I have a degree of sympathy I'm not sure what Paragraia were meant to have done because they certainly couldn't compete on a level footing with France it remains to be seen whether any team can compete with France on a level footing at this tournament so they resorted to those dark arts I was talking about they were helped by a referee from Uzbekistan who somehow didn't book any of them while booking three French players which was baffling to say the least and left Deschamps very baffled as well.

31:58In the end, the one true quality player on that French team, I mean, there are several, but the highest quality player, Kylian Mbappe, made the difference scoring a penalty that the referee had almost missed but needed VAR to make him look again and award it. It was undoubtedly the right result. It was a game that left a little bit of unpleasantness and all this against the backdrop of Philadelphia being at the heart of America's 250th anniversary celebrations on the 4th of July. Philadelphia was an incredibly buoyant town all week, or city all week, the town centre, the city centre was incredibly vibrant all week.

32:36This game wasn't, unfortunately, but France march on. Well, Gregor, as Ian says, France through, but actually this match has ended up being all about what is, quite frankly, a truly awful refereeing display from Ilgiz Tantoshev. and what I felt like and we were messaging about this before recording the pod and during the game you got 20 minutes of going wow Paraguay, amazing defending and then after that it all just lost the plot it was madness, what did you make of it?

33:06Gregor Robertson: Yeah I mean it was one of those games and you don't ever like to have this feeling where you just fear that someone's going to get hurt and when you're talking about this France team that we've all been lauding throughout the World Cup for producing the most magical football joyous football that fear was very real and particularly when you saw Kylian Mbappé kudos to him but for basically laughing at them and saying I am the man do what you want, there's nothing you can do that will hurt me that was his tone, that was his vibe and as I say, fair play to him for that but it was brave and you knew that i would say i was messaging saying as soon as they scored like they're going to come for them now they're going to come for all of them like because that's just that's this the team this this was and there's been you know we were we were talking about uh about this team after the the germany game and and i think i mentioned galarza who i actually admired i thought he's he had a real nasty edge and he was a good player he's actually a good player that's the thing about a lot of this Paraguay team they were good and for that first half there was a lot about their football that was really really impressive how organised and disciplined they were how they closed all the space how I always talk about defending I hate when defending is passive you know you close someone down it's just to kind of close them down and usher the ball another way they were going to win the ball back and that's brave when you're playing so deep and trying to jump out and press a team like France so it was brilliant stuff but then it just tipped into something that was disgraceful and some of the challenges that were flying in and the absolutely astonishing fact that none of them were booked in this game until after the final whistle when I think an assistant coach was is a disgrace as well and I'm just really really thankful that no France player was hurt Yeah absolutely just on that no red no yellow card sorry for paraguay no yellow cards paraguay didn't pick up a single card in a fifa world cup match for the first time since 1998 against nigeria i mean tony cascarino talked about how they play the game and listen we've praised them for it i've got no problem with people being physical it's a contact sport i've got no problems with the underdog using whatever kind of gamesmanship and s housery that they need but that went beyond the pale in my opinion like And it was a shame because, as I say, for the first 20 minutes, you were looking at it going, this is really impressive from Paraguay.

35:49This is like a textbook how to defend performance. And I think in terms of the gamesmanship and stuff, Caceres, who is a player that I think typifies the Christ you would not want to play against him. Like, he looks nasty and he looks like he's going to give you a scrap. but actually his battle with Mbappe for the first 20 minutes was actually quite fascinating and they were kind of clearly saying things to each other and whatever but it didn't tip over and then they just completely lost their heads probably because the referee did nothing to stamp it out surely that's why as a former pro that's surely what's happened here like if the referee books them Paraguay keep it at whatever 70 % S-Housery to give them the longer leash they just keep going, don't they?

36:35To the point where you've got six of them surrounding Dembele, openly scuffing up the turf. I mean, this is on the referee, isn't it?

36:44Gregor Robertson: Yeah, yeah, scuffing up the turf, the penalty spot, I should add. I mean, that was remarkable, yeah. And Casares was, I mean, the two recoveries he made were outstanding. The one when Mbappe was played through and I think he actually hand-balled it, but he got back in time just as he was about to pull the trigger. and there was another one, Barcala went down the line, it was a rare moment where he beat him down the line and he didn't give up he hounded back and he was grappling and he got a poke on the ball just as he was about to pull the trigger as well so he was an excellent defender but they just completely lost the plot when it became clear that their game plan was in serious threat and they looked like they were going out and you're right, the referee is I should take a large share of the blame for that because that's part of a referee's job is to clamp down on play that threatens the safety, endangers the safety of the players.

37:46Gregor Robertson: And that's what was clearly happening. And there were some just ridiculous, absolutely bizarre decisions as well. Like somewhere, one on Dewey, where we'd just come on and he came dancing inside and he was chopped down and he told him to get up. I was like, wave and play on. I mean, he missed the penalty. He didn't give the penalty either, yeah. He stood right in front of it. He stood right in front of it. Honestly, crackers. I cannot believe it. And this is a mini rant from me having watched all the games. There was a bit of chatter early on in this tournament about quick decisions and no time wasting and the refereeing has been great.

38:24That's nonsense. I don't buy that narrative at all. I don't think the refereeing has been any better than we're used to seeing in the modern era with VAR and all the complications that come with it. We've had the same inconsistencies. We've had the same random shocking performances like this one in the France-Paraguay game. And I actually don't think the refereeing standard has been any good. I don't think there's any kind of, oh, we wish we could see this in the Premier League or anything like that. I actually think it's been really poor. And it worries me going into some huge, huge knockout games.

38:55you know this quarterfinal which footballing wise this tournament has been amazing I have to admit that as much as I don't want to for FIFA and Gianni Infantino and all the people that have you know made it so inaccessible for fans it's been an amazing footballing tournament but with a standard of refereeing makes me very worried about the impact it could have on these quarterfinals going forward and the rest of the round of 16 games as well yeah it's just been it's varied

39:18Gregor Robertson: widely, wildly, sorry, that's the fear and if you get the wrong referee you feel that it could really ruin a match and potentially ruin the tournament so I totally agree with you, I think people were getting ahead of themselves earlier on even talking about the way VAR was implemented we've seen some ridiculous VAR decisions in recent days and the referee tonight was a disgrace and just really pleased that France got through because there were some hairy moments too and like the fact that it took them it took Dewey coming on, I was saying this to you before, like you know imagine you're playing against France for an hour in nearly 40 degree heat and you know Barclay's been running at you, Dembele, Mbappe and then Dewey comes on and he just has that extra burst of energy and he could skip inside and he's got that little shuffle of his feet like it just took that, it took all the quality that France had actually to break them down and to get them that opportunity to win the game but I'm just really pleased that it did because if Paraguay had somehow managed to get an upset in that way it would have been a travesty if they'd done it in the way that they showed for the first half an hour in the game fair enough because they approached the game in absolutely the right way for them and they posed France a lot of problems I've never seen the Lisi lose the ball as much in a game he was trying things, he was trying to make things happen in tight spaces but he was robbed numerous occasions and Barclay had a really tough time against the right back Dembele didn't get a sniff anytime they tried to play Mbappé in behind they were playing so deep that there was no space for them to run into so they had a really good game plan and ultimately it's a good thing for football and the World Cup that France went through yeah definitely Desiree Dway that little flip flap two touches that he does whilst running at full speed is one of the most mental things I've seen like for the penalty I don't like slow-mo in football these days because of the impact it has on VAR I'm very happy for when it comes up in those moments so you can see just how skillful these players are and I do wonder whether a laughing Kylian Mbappe will become one of the images of this tournament laughing at the end as well as Paraguay players surround him trying to get a rise out of him one of the more impressive things.

41:45We keep talking about kids watching this game. If you've got any young kids who play this game, show them that because that is how you respond on a football pitch to keep your head. Gregor Robertson, well done for not mentioning the fact that Ilgiz Tantashev was also the referee for Scotland against Morocco. Good levels of professionalism there because Michael Grant was straight in on Twitter when I was ranting about it earlier. Speaking of Morocco...

42:08Gregor Robertson: John McGann penalty. Yeah, they're not over it, listeners. they are still not over it and speaking of Morocco though they will face France now in the quarter finals that is going to be a cracker that is after Morocco beat Canada 3-0 earlier in the evening James Geerbrandt was there for us and he sent me these thoughts not long after full time well it's a bit hard what to know what to make of that game really because on the one hand Morocco won 3-0 and scored three really nice goals, really clean moves. But apart from that, I thought, especially for the first 50 minutes or so, they were really quite, they were surprisingly bad.

42:56This was not a good performance for the first, certainly not for the first 55 minutes or so, as I say. You know, when you consider that they were up against the second lowest ranked team in the round of 16. And this is a team of, you know, real pedigree. This is a better team than Canada and we're expecting them to impose themselves. And they really, really struggled in that first 55 or so minutes. You know, at the point that they scored, I think they'd had only one touch in the Canada box and they created 0.02 expected goals. I just really, you know, not got into any sort of attacking rhythm at all.

43:41They did get better and they did end the game very strongly. And once they scored that very good, very nicely worked first goal through Unahi, they were obviously able to kind of hit Canada in transition a little bit more. And they picked them off quite nicely at the end. But I think if you were, you know, a French football fan, this was not the sort of performance that would have you you know quaking in your boots to say the least i think it was a match that demonstrated as well for morocco that um although their first 11 is very strong the depth below that first 11 is a weak point for them certainly compared to some of the other nations in their fifa top 10 of the rankings and ismail saibari who's been so impressive at centre forward in this tournament he suffered an injury and he looked quite distraught and and it was seen at the end getting helped down the tunnel at the end of the match again his replacement Sufjan Rahimi although he did score at the end you could tell he's just not a player at that same level so yeah I think of course Morocco will have a chance against France but for me this was not one of their more impressive performances in the tournament.

44:55yeah Greg firstly I would say not a 3-0 game this one and I think quite a for all the kind of fraught layers of France-Paraguay this is maybe quite a simple game to analyse and quite a happy outcome I think Canada I have enjoyed them a lot at this tournament I've talked about them a lot on this podcast and in the Times newsletter I think they've done some great things I think this level round of 16 is a great achievement and they can you know bow out very happy Morocco just keep impressing me. They just keep impressing me. I think there's so many things to say about them. You know, the goals they score, the way they work as a team, the way they defend as well.

45:36Like this is not some kind of upstart. This is not some kind of dark horse thing. These guys are a proper, proper outfit. I mean, you know, Saibari goes off, substitute comes on, scores, plays really well. Like honestly, just really impressive performance. France are in for a proper proper game and a completely different kind of game as well to the Paraguay one aren't they

45:58Gregor Robertson: they are one thing I would say is Morocco haven't been the team I thought they were going to be in that first game against Brazil because they were they were so dominant and so like dynamic and they suffocated they suffocated Brazil in the first half in particular in that game and I haven't I haven't necessarily seen that in the games that have followed. They certainly, obviously they started brilliantly against Scotland, but Scotland could have possibly nicked a draw on that. The Haiti game was a bit of a basketball game. They won 4-2. The Netherlands game was a physical duel, more than actually a game where either team were brilliant in a footballing sense.

46:41Gregor Robertson: And in this game, the first half, again, it was a kind of physical battle and a bit of an ill-tempered game. And Canada, I think, ruffled their feathers. it was not until Unai scored in the 50th minute with a really well worked free kick that you really saw their quality show and that was possibly a bit to do with the fact that Canada had to open up and come out a bit more but the goals on the breakaway were really good so yeah I agree with you, they're a great team and they're a team that as I've said on a couple of occasions, it feels like they're greater than the sum of their parts as well they have some really good individuals but they are a team but they've not quite lived up to what I had hoped to be brutally honest, I've seen them in that first game against Brazil, so possibly when we see them against France and it's just going to be two teams that like to attack and are brave, and look yes, Morocco are going to have to do a lot of defending and they're also happy to do that but they've got a lot of attacking talent and I think that could be an absolute cracker Yeah, maybe they've left some in the tank.

47:49Maybe they were just baffled about having to face Scotland at a World Cup. Who knows what the reasons are for Morocco's suspicious displays at this tournament so far. We will leave it there. Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me as always. Thank you too for Matt Lawton, Ian Whittle and James Gearbrand for their contributions. They've been brilliant throughout this tournament to hear from our reporters on the ground at this World Cup. It's also been great to hear from all of you, so do get in touch with me if you've got any thoughts on England, Mexico or any of the other things you've seen at this tournament, especially if it's the oddity of France getting three yellow cards and Paraguay getting none, the email is tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk.

48:26We will be back to review England against Mexico tomorrow. We'll see you then.

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