WORLD CUP DAY 25: England's epic win in the Azteca

0:00This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. The agents wrote the copy and managed the timelines, while our human creative director made sure it all made sense. Easy. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. This podcast is brought to you by Thomson Reuters. The best don't just do their work, they change what's possible. Cases won, audits completed, jobs saved. Behind every one of those moments is a professional who needed to get it right and did. Thomson Reuters builds the technology that sharpens insights, speeds up decision-making, and powers the outcomes that matter.

0:36So when professionals act, the impact is felt by everyone. Be a changemaker. Visit tr.com forward slash changemakers.

0:50Well, as you can hear, I'm still inside the Azteca Oasis plane in the background. That was one of the most remarkable performances I've ever witnessed. Probably the finest one in my lifetime.

1:07Hello and welcome to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is day 25 of our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clarke, I've got Gregor Robertson and Peter Rutzler with me. Later we're talking Norway and suspended red cards. But first, what a game. The game of the tournament, one of the greatest World Cup games ever, one of the great knockout games ever. England beating Mexico in the Azteca, 3-2 with 10 men. An incredible performance from Thomas Tuchel's side. Just, just brilliant. I'm recording this at 4.30 in the Times offices and I've absolutely lost the plot. I sent Matt Lawton, our chief sports correspondent, the challenge of trying to sum that up.

1:49He was in the Azteca and he sent me this 60-second thought. Well, as you can hear, I'm still inside the Azteca. Oasis playing in the background. That was one of the most remarkable performances I've ever witnessed. Probably the finest one in my lifetime. Incredible the way they've dealt with everything that was thrown at them tonight. Not just the altitude, but the way that Mexico put them under so much pressure. Not least after losing Jarrell Kwanzaa to that red car. Sunday special is happening here at this World Cup with England. They go on to Miami, to Norway. It's just extraordinary. I can't believe how well they've played tonight, how much resilience they've displayed.

2:36The fitness levels, the composure, the quality of the performances, the way that people like Anthony Gordon and Jude Bellingham have just run and run. An extraordinary performance. astonishing managerial display by Thomas Tuchel my word, well done England Gregor, you could hear the atmosphere behind Matt there Matt calling it one of the greatest England performances of his lifetime we'll do analysis in a minute we'll do switch to back fives in a second what a game, what a game Epic, epic stuff an epic performance any doubts or question marks or anything about this England team now just need to be consigned to the bin because the size of their cojones, my goodness.

3:22Like to go down to 10 men after everything that had gone before and hold on in the Azteca, in that atmosphere, it was just an extraordinary, extraordinary performance. So many enormous, huge performances. And yeah, you're in with a chance on that showing. In with a chance. Even the Scots are on board, Pete. Can we believe it? Pete, you're out there in America, of course, joining us for this show. What a game. What a game. Oh, absolutely insane. I'm absolutely shattered. I think they put us through the altitude experience by just putting on that brilliant display. I was just around the corner from my hotel watching it there in a sports bar, packed, obviously, with a lot of Mexican supporters.

4:09And there was about three of us Brits in there really trying to just, you know, fly the flag. But it was absolutely phenomenal. Absolutely sensational. It's the greatest. I'm trying to think, and obviously, you know, I'm quite young, so I can't really claim to say firsthand about performances before I was born, but it's surely the greatest win since 66. Just considering everything that they've gone through in that game, the level of some of the performances, the right decisions made at the right times, and just an absolute rollercoaster. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. and really fantastic atmosphere.

4:47I mean, it was brilliant out here. And I think a lot of people are certainly getting behind the sport and absolutely packed out and really getting involved in games like that that do wonders for Inchester. So, yeah, amazing. Amazing display from England. Honestly, it's so weird to say that. So weird. Yeah. I mean, throughout this tournament, even like I've watched in the games, I'm just so negative. And I've made some home saying, oh, classic, just so negative. Can't pick out the positives. yeah this is this is a slightly disorientating new experience isn't it uh feeling such overwhelming positivity but also pride like real pride in what we saw there yeah it was amazing wasn't it as you say pete we're probably similar kind of generations as well we all saw you know argentina in 98 red card for david beckham route wayne rooney red cards against portugal i was watching that game thinking i know how this ends i've seen this story before so the idea that england had it gregor you talked about Cajones there.

5:41I mean, how impressive is that? We're going to come back. I'll come back to talk about good football and Jude Bellingham and things. But just that character from England and from all the players and from Thomas Tuchel as well with his changes, you know, Matt mentioned it as well. Like how impressive was that for England in the Azteca? So much has been made of the Azteca and you could hear it on your TV screens. You could hear it in Matt's voice note there. That is some serious, serious balls on this England team, isn't it? I mean, yeah, the fact that Quanta was sent off in the 54th minute and obviously then you got the, you earned the extra kind of cushion, getting another goal, getting the penalty through Gordon that Kane dispatched and you needed it.

6:20But even then, the fact that Jimenez leveled, there was still more than 20 minutes to play, plus 11 stoppage, that's more than half an hour with a one goal lead, 10 men and essentially every ball you win back, you're just hoofing it into the to the Mexico half and get ready to defend again and there were some heroic performances like I mean Gehi there was one clearance Gehi made where he kind of wrapped his leg round it might have been Jimenez I can't remember to clear it it was epic and Conta as well you know moving out to right wing back and just when the ball is getting shuffled from left to right back and forth back and forth he's the one who's doing the doggies out to shut down the Mexico left back to stop the cross and then get back in to cover round and Jimenez is coming up and doubling up at the back post.

7:12He's got to be so alert and so he looked like he was running on fumes but he just, and there were so many of them like that. They just kept going and they kept going and they kept hoofing it into the half again and get ready to defend again. And it was just like, I'll be honest, I was watching a thing, they can't hold on doing this. They can't hold on doing this. I doubted that they had this in them and they proved me wrong and probably a lot of people back home in England too. And it was amazing to watch, wasn't it, Pete? Now, this is probably a vindication and a moment where you go, that is Thomas Tuchel and that's why England and the FA went to go and get him for that exact moment.

7:47Because you saw it, didn't you? When that red card was issued to Gerald Kwanza, the camera immediately turned to Thomas Tuchel and Anthony Barry on the bench and they're in consultation. And what happened after was amazing to watch. You have to remember Mexico got their second goal from a penalty and we'll talk about that decision in a minute. but really, you know, a couple of saves to Pickford, lots of balls into the box, but actually England defended brilliantly and all those tactical changes, his subs again, Thomas Tuchel deserves huge credit for this, doesn't he? Yeah, he does. And I think it, I mean, you know, I still have my doubts over elements of the selection, but it's certainly vindicated some of those decisions when you consider how the last half an hour played out.

8:29Because you look at that last water break, the changes he then makes, he introduced Jed Spence, he introduces Dan Byrne, goes to the five. It's basically saying to Mexico, right, this is all you're going to be able to do in this last half. It ended up being 40, 45 minutes. It's absolutely astonishing when you consider the stoppage time. I just basically said, go on then, load the box. Try and beat us in the air. Try and create playing in that way against us. And yes, I mean, Dan Byrne was phenomenal. I mentioned Margehi, Jordan Pickford. in a tournament where we don't know, we haven't really seen keepers necessarily dominate their box like that.

9:06Pickford was unbelievable in his command of the penalty area. But it was also the structure. It was the way in which they were intelligent with the way they were closing down crosses. They never allowed space, never ever committed to allow themselves to be beaten, particularly in fullback areas. And a lot of that's to do with the work rate as well, which you can't forget. But specifically for Tuchel, I think you're right, Tom. You know, I mean, when you go down to 10 men, even just psychologically, knowing that you've got so much time, you're playing in that environment, you are already shattered.

9:40I mean, during that last 20 minutes, you're looking at all of them individually and just like, oh man, he is absolutely gone. He is absolutely knackered off. Yeah, he is done. And yet they just kept going and going. I mean, Jude Belling, Jude Belling is honestly a performance for the ages. I've never seen anything like it in an England shirt not just because of the goals but the man kept running he just kept going I thought at some point maybe he'll collapse he's going to go at some point but he did everything it was sensational but it wasn't just him Anthony Gordon Anthony Gordon, my goodness I mean both sides of the game because he had the instincts of a striker to follow the knockdown from Kane to get in to win that penalty.

10:28He did the thing that everyone's been crying out for in the first half about beating a man on the outside down the line, getting crosses in. He was involved in the second goal in terms of, I think Elliot Anderson won the ball back, but he kind of scrapped to keep the move alive and won it. And then for the whole second half, really, his defensive discipline, his work rate, he's basically playing like a full-back as well. you know it's almost like they had two fullbacks on the left and he was just tireless with his run-ins so like yeah that was a that was a big another big tick for Tuchel in terms of that selection because you know there's been it's been a toss of a coin between him and Rashford but this game suited him suited him for because of I think because of the discipline he shows in in his defensive side of the game and boy did they need it yeah well because of the changes as well I mean it's a bad bit of editing for me Martin Hardy our colleague had written a brilliant piece about Anthony Gordon and after the two assists off the bench I said I was like let's publish it now he might be on the bench again but I've gone too early for Christ's sake we need to bring it back a lot of people are like this tournament's really done it's like no no there's nothing a lot of people writing England off as well I mean in terms of this performance as well just thinking about the Croatia game and this tournament as a whole like England being fun England being crazy you know is there something about this team that maybe it suits the big occasion Thomas as Tuchel has said, will play better against better teams.

11:53What do you think, Gregor? And Gregor, I'll come to you first and then, Pete. Well, yeah, there's always truth in the idea that a team who wants to play against England will make England look better. And while that was true in this game, there was also so much more than that. The game was fun because it was wild. England were actually really disciplined when they had to be, and that's even before the madness ensued. That's like in that first 20 minutes or so until the first water break, where you had to try and kill the atmosphere. You had to knock it around. You had to buy fouls, which Gordon actually did brilliantly as well on a number of occasions.

12:26You had to do anything you could to slow down the game and to make it just to dampen the atmosphere. And you did that brilliantly. And then you got the goal and then you got the goal again. And that was like a kind of just massive counterpunch. And yeah, so like that was intelligent play as well. It wasn't like, you know, because Mexico were coming out, you were dominating the game. Actually, he didn't. Nexler got a lot of the ball and you were really smart at the moment you jumped and won it back. So, yeah. And I think, you know, Tuchel has said that throughout. He said that, you know, the further we go, the better we'll get.

13:03And, you know, we've obviously got another sort of different proposition now in Norway. I'm sure we'll come to that later. But it's, you're at the stage of the tournament now where the opposition aren't going to be like a Ghana or a Panama. It's going to be, it's going to be a team who also wants to try and come and win the game. We're not going anywhere near Norway yet, mate. We're not going anywhere near. We've only just done 12 minutes of hype. I've got at least another half an hour in me. Pete, your thoughts on that same question? Yeah, I think this is a moments team. I was really heartened by the two goals that Bellingham scored, the way that England constructed them.

13:37I mean, it's the first goal where Rice covers all of that ground. Am I right? I'm such a blur. The memory of it's so close. Declan Rice bombing down the right wing and then giving it to Saka. But just the way that move was constructed, you mentioned, Gregor, Gordon's movement because it takes some of the defenders up away and then Bellingham comes in and he's on track. The way they constructed those goals was appealing because for me, the performances we've seen from England haven't been particularly great. And even the Croatia game, that was 45 minutes and that's all we've seen. Even this game, God, I don't want to be negative, blimey, I was straight away.

14:10There's always an inner England fan in you, isn't there? Don't do it, don't do it. No, but this was about resilience and character and structure and being intelligent. And it had those creativity, which is what I was pleased about. It's just we haven't... It's the patterns when we do dominate the ball in those kind of games. And to an extent, we kind of got away with it. Got away with Congo because we had moments. We had Harry Kane twice, basically, against Panama. Got there eventually. Moments. I think even Croatia in that second half was to a degree a bit like that. But those are the games where you need more lockpickers.

14:44And I don't know if we have enough of those lockpickers. And that's fine. But this is the team that he's built. And I think Greg is right. Once you go into the knockout phases, the games are going to be more dynamic. And I think the way we've seen in the other games, how tight they are, how much the field can be leveled by things that aren't always to do with football. Like Paraguay, France the other night. That's a significant degree to do with the officiating. has leveled that game to a one-goal margin that required a penalty for an attack as good as Prague's to win. Here, it's Mexico City. It's the Azteca.

15:20It's altitude. And it's how you respond to all of these scenarios. It's the mental fortitude. It's the resilience. It's the character. And that's what Tuchel has built. And now having seen this, coming through this, having that under your belt, coming into the next games, I think that does so much and I'm I'm I'm yeah I've had a full U-turn on where we're going so I'm I'm all in He's drunk the Kool-Aid everybody he's fully behind the Thomas Tuchel hype train Gregor I was just going to say you know we keep saying these words character resilience Mexico's response to going 2-0 down was outstanding at the end of that first half like the the free kick it was a great delivery and Concec and a half cleared and it was smashed in and like oh my god they've shot straight back then Jimenez flashed that shot wide just past the post then they had a header that Pickford like leaped out you know tipped over the bar Bellingham's clearance with Montes at the back post you forget all these things now because so much happened afterwards they had a lot of chances and they kind of and England held on they held on to the lead so that they showed resilience even at the end of the first half and then after the way the second half started they started brilliantly and could have extended the lead and then you're down to 10 men and the game changes again.

16:39So there were so many ups and downs and wild oscillations in this game and you managed to see it through. That's the thing that this team did that so many teams in the past haven't and you managed to get over the line. So, so thrilling. Honestly, I'm still buzzing just listening to you talk about it on this podcast. I mean, we've only done 16 minutes. I've watched every game of this World Cup. I'm already excited about watching that one again. That's how good it was. and thinking about my friend Sam who's got his five-year-old son, six-year-old son Milo. They've not watched it. They're going to get up in the morning and watch it.

17:11I'm so excited for them. Imagine watching that with your kid. Absolutely incredible. A couple of bits of maybe quick analysis actually on some of the decisions. Two huge VAR calls. Jarrell Kwanzaa, red card. It can be quick in this answer. Greg, I'll start with you, former defender. Yes. Just when you go over the top of the ball like that, I think Alan Shearer said in the commentary, he's kind of won the ball with his knee so like you know he'd gone over it and the ball had rolled over his like under his knee and his foot planted into him I think in the modern day you watch that in real time it looks like a hard tackle that he's gone into a bit over exuberantly but you see it in VAR and it's a stonewall I actually thought in real time I mean obviously with VAR you see the pitches and there's been a lot of controversy about that I know about that first hand I actually thought in real time it looked like a bad challenge so I mean I wasn't particularly surprised I'm actually surprised it wasn't given because it was because of his momentum as he comes through it was there to be one and you can see this it was there to be one you can see his studs are up like it's not this isn't a this isn't a great technique on that slide challenge so yeah it's that scissor isn't it that scissor isn't it it never looks good does it that's the thing from a kind of it just doesn't look so happy for him it doesn't look controlled so happy for Kwanso I mean he must be the most relieved man in Mexico City because yeah you know you know how skateboards are made for players and have been in the past and you don't want to be the fall guy so he must be so relieved I'm really pleased with him and he played well for 50 minutes so we can just remember that 50 minutes beforehand on the penalty Pete penalty yes or no for the Harry Kane foul yeah for me it was yeah I mean it's we've seen them giving and yeah it's the same as the Modric Madweke one as well I mean I don't like it but I think I'd probably look at it and think that's probably a penalty but Gregor former defender I don't like it and I don't want it to be a penalty I don't think it should have been a penalty I think it's another example of slow motion replays warping our perceptions of what is and what isn't a foul and I hate the fact that that now and everyone seems to accept the fact that that's a foul it's a nonsense in terms of the next game just thinking about that right back spot then because you know we'll talk about suspended red cards and things in the second half of the show I'm not sure Gerald Kwanzaa's is going to be so he will miss that quarterfinal game against Norway.

19:30If Eversary Kwanzaa's got anything left in his legs in a couple of days time after that performance it looked to me like that's a solution at right back if again and then a big if if John Stones is fit enough to play 90 minutes against Erling Haaland that would be where I would be going. Thought? Yeah look I think the way that the second half panned out you have possibilities like Jed Spence kind of restored his reputation a bit this is what World Cups are like you just rise and fall in the space of a 20 minute cameo or whatever and his cameo against Congo was disastrous and on this occasion he was brilliant so you look at the opposition again probably and you want a physical battle maybe the fact Stone's nose Erling Haaland might come into it a bit but Kansa's a bit more of a physical presence so I think if there's any way he can have him in a certain half he might but I think you have two players who can play it right back now.

20:25And I don't think it needs to be the sort of existential crisis that had been built up to be. No, no, no. We've done enough England existential crisis on this podcast over the last couple of tournaments. We'll leave it there. I mean, other players that you think deserve a merit. I mean, I think as well, Bakayo Saka, the guy is clearly playing on about one leg at the minute, but with that run and cross showed why he's in the team. Because I don't mind Nani Madueke's performances at time, but that is what Saka delivers, isn't it? Just absolute quality on that right wing. it's just that moment he's a cut above isn't he yeah go on Pete sorry no he's a cut above isn't he that's the difference what he can do in the box in the final third that's why he won him in the team I'd say Saka but also but also Rice with him I mean forget that Rice was booked after 60 seconds and then to come through a game like that where you are under the cosh so much you are working against the ball for so long and I mentioned the first goal the way they combined that's kind of the Arsenal call we want still need to improve on the set plays though we're quite disappointed on the corners we've seen knowing that they're pedigree from Deadpool.

21:24But yeah, definitely Saka and Rice. I'd just like to make another word for Elliot Anderson. I think we've kind of, we've done it. He's become the like, you know, on the regular show when I always go, oh, and we have to give credit to Brighton after they've beaten Liverpool or Man United. It's become like a kind of catchphrase of this World Cup. Oh, and Elliot Anderson did well. Like for tournaments and tournaments, we've said, oh, England have not got a central midfielder. They've not got anyone to play next to Declan Rice. This guy, I mean, he's just moved for£116 million. He keeps going like this.

21:54He's going to look worth every penny. The way he won the ball back, he's playing brilliantly in midfield, almost so that you don't notice him. That's how good he's been. And the other thing I'd want to highlight is, yes, the way he jumped and stole the ball from Gilberto Moura was brilliant for the second goal. But Moura did him twice earlier in the half with that same turn. Moura's a player. He's a great little player. he turned on a sixpence and he did it once to him in the first half and sent him for a hot dog and then another time he did it and got a one two round and got a shot and it was blocked it didn't come to anything so to still have the bravery to go again and do it when you know this is a player who's who's crafty was you know says a lot about him and yeah he's just he's really really disciplined brilliant brilliant um i i mean everyone was sakid you're right this that moment of subtlety when he you get into that position that that Rice kind of created for him and Pickford we should say with the throw out and then he just jinx to buy that yard of space and the quality, the little dink was just, you know, that subtlety he has in those clutch moments was crucial but I didn't let, you know, there was one you saw in a slow motion replay where he got kicked on the Achilles and he's like I've had the tendonitis on Achilles and my god that would have been agony I feel like he's he's just going to have to be wrapped up in cotton wool and you get whatever minutes you can out of him between now and then he's not going to be able to play 90 minutes in any of the games I don't think but yeah all of them they were all brilliant they were Absolutely Super Jordan Pickford as well with some huge saves in this game Pete you mentioned it earlier the guy is a big game player someone will finally listen to me I've been saying it for so long just wanted to finish with a couple of bits of hype we've done some hype we've done some analysis wanted to wrap up part one with a bit more hype Gregor, Pete called Jude Bellingham's performance earlier one of the generational performances, and I think he's right.

23:47You've mentioned the clearance, the two goals, the endless running. I mean, people have talked at this tournament recently about, oh, who replaces Harry Kane in this team? I mean, they've got a ready-made England captain there and waiting, haven't they? This guy is absolutely unbelievable. The idea that we went into this tournament questioning whether he starts is true madness, really. This guy just keeps delivering on the biggest stages. He just loves it. He strolled into the Azteca, scored two goals and stuck his arms out and went, yeah, it's me, lads. It's me. Yeah, there's no stage that he doesn't think he belongs on.

24:19There's no stage too big. This is what he's born to do. And it's rare you say that about someone. He's just, his mentality is almost unique. You see these kind of players so rarely that they just have supreme confidence in themselves. and you couple that with his remarkable talent and work rate and all that kind of stuff. And we should say, there was another question mark that Johnny's written about this really well, about his sort of relationship with Harry Kane. That was a part of the reason for people questioning his place in the team. Morgan Orgers has started to be that conduit as a number 10 and so there was a lot of support behind him.

25:03But Bellingham clearly recognised that and thought, I need to do something about this. And you even see the way they're celebrating goals. He's probably thought to himself, I need to strike up a bit of a relationship with this guy. And they've clearly bonded a bit. And yeah, the movement for the first goal, the way that Kane went from back post to near post and Belling did the opposite. And they think, you know, wherever the cross went, Kane was the first man at the front post and Belling was the guy ready for the next one. And yeah, that, yeah. there's running out of things to say about him he's just he just he just if there's any stage stage that he's like that he's got to steal the show or he feels he should steal the show like that's the way he goes into every game that's just the way he is Yeah, he'll keep delivering won't he?

25:52Pete, just to wrap up then I mean Matt mentioned there's something happening with this Thomas Tuchel team you've said you've done a kind of bit of a reverse turn on what your expectations are like looking at this tournament we've seen so much football already we're gearing up for the quarterfinals with some round of 16 games still to go do you think England are in the mix after that? Yeah the Azteca was a full stop for me I didn't see England getting beyond the Azteca like a lot's made of like oh well look how good this Mexico team are and you know they blah blah blah and then breaking down their ridiculous record doesn't matter like to go there to win in those circumstances to win in the circumstances within the game to play like that to show that you can win in incredible adversity and then you look at the rest of the tournament, yeah Norway will be a competitive game and you're looking at a semi-final, we've seen how tight these knockout games are and why not?

26:47Why not England? Why not England? There we go, finishing the hype train You spent too much time with Pochettino That's the US phrase, why not us? I've nicked it Nothing wrong with that We will be talking about Mauricio Pochettino and TV USA in just a second. We will be back after this quick break. We'll also be talking about Norway. Stick with us.

27:20Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover. And to help you better manage your health, we're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler health care is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more.

28:00Only when it matters. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com. This podcast is brought to you by Thompson Reuters. The best don't just do their work. They change what's possible. Cases won, audits completed, jobs saved. Behind every one of those moments is a professional who needed to get it right and did. Thompson Reuters builds the technology that sharpens insights, speeds up decision-making, and powers the outcomes that matter. So when professionals act, the impact is felt by everyone. Be a changemaker. Visit tr.com forward slash changemakers.

28:59In terms of hype, we've got to give him some hype. Seven goals in four games. He's now level with Kylian Mbappe and Lionel Messi in the golden boot race. Now, listeners, however, some of you more loyal fans will be thinking, I know what's coming here. Before we get to Gregor Robertson's thoughts, there is another member of the Times team who did tip Norway to win this World Cup. Alison Rudd, she's been at Wimbledon covering the tennis for the Times, but unsurprisingly, she did send me these thoughts after Norway beat Brazil. It's too early for me to gloat because I have actually tipped Norway to win the entire tournament.

29:34So just a simple win against Brazil isn't there yet. But it did illustrate exactly why I think Norway will win the tournament, because they are patient, they know who they are. they have one of the best strikers in the world if not the best striker in the world they're not scared to play to his strengths they're not scared to work hard and wait for him to have his moment they have the guts and bravery of Bodo glimped and players prepare to give their all whether it's dancing about on the wing or trying to link up play that's the least I expected actually. Thank you. Gregor, Alison Rudd, classy as ever with that little voice.

30:19Nonchalant. Just nonchalant, a nonchalant little mic drop there. But very, very impressive from Norway. I've got to say, there's a lot of Brazil and Carlo Ancelotti are getting a lot of flack online. I actually thought they were quite good. Quite a fascinating game. They could have been 2-0 up. Bruno Guimaraes scores that penalty and Hendrik takes this chance. But Haaland delivers again. I mean, it is such a buzz to see Erling Haaland deliver at this World Cup, isn't it? And the way he just walks off sheepishly with a big grin on his face. It's like, oh, this is getting quite big. That's the strange thing about him for such a kind of global superstar.

30:57He's got this kind of goofy side that's like, you know, he almost stranted down plays. His enormous importance to this Norway side. He does look like a bit sheepish about it. but everyone else knows you see like as soon as the final whistle went everyone's straight over to him just like absolutely there's amazing pictures of them all celebrating and he's like carrying they like you don't you know the metaphors are there you don't like he's literally carrying like four of them on his back I know it's amazing I know the guards passed the metaphorical you know baton as the drumstick to beat the drum for the row at the end it was extraordinary it's still you know you still have the same conversation about him being so kind of anonymous.

31:39I think he had one touch in the Brazil box in the first half. As we only had 30 touches in the whole game, which is the same amount as Noosa, who was taken off at half-time. But it doesn't matter. We keep having this conversation. It's understandable to some extent. We referenced James Gearbrandt in a really great piece about that kind of strange state of affairs about someone who might come to the World Cup and be desperate to see one of the biggest footballers on the planet and then be like, where is he? And then, oh yeah, he pops up and scores a goal and then he does it again. And then the whole kind of battle with Gabriel, it wasn't really a battle.

32:18It was a bit of a damp squid. There were a couple of wrestles from really direct long balls. But then the moment when it really mattered, he was on his blind side and Gabriel, there was no one else in the box. I don't know why someone who's so used to being physical and getting tight and grappling and all that kind of stuff didn't do it in that moment, he gave him that yard to get on the blind side and beat him to the header and then just a clinical finish for the second yeah, extraordinary and his record, he's got 62 goals and 54 internationals which is a goal every 71 minutes only 6 of them have been penalties apparently the last time he didn't score for Norway was back in October 2024.

33:09Like the last time he played for Norway and didn't score a goal. So, you know, England beware. That's clearly the... Don't start. Boo. Don't start. Not yet. Boo. We'll be doing plenty of England-Norway analysis in the coming days. Boo. Don't start. I mean, he's just incredible, isn't he? Erling Haaland-Pete. He's like four strikers rolled into one. I was watching it thinking he's a bit like kind of Didier Drogba. His reactions, I've never seen a striker since like Filippo Inzaghi come alive in the box so much, like just like walking, looking uninterested. And then it's like, oh, there's a cross coming, right, bang.

33:43And he's a bit like Ruud van Nistelrooy as well. He's just such a phenomenon. Like he's so fantastic and his personality, just again, one of the many treats of this World Cup. I mean, you don't want him to become one of those great players that, I mean, when you're representing a country like Norway and you don't really get to perform on these stages, you know, that often, you know, this is Norway's first World Cup in such a long time. And for him to then own the stage, I mean, we talked about that with Jude Bellingham, but to do so with a team like Norway, I mean, in that role as well. I mean, I know exactly what you're saying, Tom, and I completely agree because he has everything.

34:21And considering his frame, his physical frame and stature, that's pretty remarkable for a centre-forward. It makes him almost superhuman. but you're playing in a team that's not always going to be able to provide you the service and I think that's actually been part of why Norway have been so impressive. I haven't watched a lot of them admittedly this tournament but from what I've read and what I have seen their players around him are feeding the beast and then the beast is feasting and we're all better for it. And there are many other heroes in this game. Again I would say Patrick Berg I think he's been outstanding.

34:56I mentioned him before Bodo Glimp captain he's like since he's come into the team he's added something definitely and then Orion Nyland the goalkeeper that save he made when he's like a bizarre I think was it Ayer I think kind of tackled Endrick and it looped up and it was going in and he's backtracking and clawed it onto the post and like hit his face off the post in the process I think they had 66 % of the ball yeah no no exactly I was just going to say as well substitutes as well making two changes at half time manager Nusa and Soorloth off Oscar Bob coming on I thought he looked really bright and Sheldrup got the assist for the first goal I think he might have got the assist for the second one as well not sure it really counts but in terms of just passing Erling Haaland a sideways pass but brilliant again yeah they are feeding the beast as Pete says but as Alison Rudd says and as she said in the preview they are a proper team they play like a team and they know what they're doing I will come back to say that I thought Brazil were pretty good in this game at times they could and should have been 2-0 up in my opinion but they bow out again And one of the great little moments of this World Cup and a great little moment on a massive, massive day of stories, Neymar's little cameo at the end, retiring from international football by coming on, kicking a few people in the same way that he's been kicked his entire career, then taking the penalty, mouthing off to the Norway goalkeeper that I'm going to score, I'm going to score, then showing everyone how to do a stutter penalty at this tournament and then bursting into tears at full time.

36:20I mean, there can't be a better summary of Neymar's entire career than that kind of little 10-minute camera. or Brazil's World Cup indeed because Brazil since winning the 2002 World Cup we've got quarter finals quarter finals fourth place two more quarter finals and now the round of 16 it's their longest drought since first winning the competition in 1958 really really interesting stuff in that one let's finish by talking about two huge games the huge games just keep coming listeners we're going to talk about USA Belgium in just a second but I've got this voice note from James Geerbrandt who was at the Portugal press conference to hear Cristiano Ronaldo speak It's remarkable scenes.

36:57James has written the World Cup Times newsletter tomorrow, so if you're a subscriber, make sure you keep an eye out for that. But he sent me this note on just what he saw in this press conference. Everybody, of course, expects it to be Ronaldo's final, probably his final major tournament. He is 41 years old. And if it is his final major tournament, I guess it may even be one of the last times that we, as a kind of world media, hear from him in this kind of setting. And obviously there's a lot of, you know, I think there's a lot of negativity about Ronaldo as a player and as a person at the moment.

37:36We're in the sort of slagging off Ronaldo era for reasons that I understand. But to hear him in the press conference was a reminder that he is an incredible figure. I mean, Ronaldo was followed into the press conference room by Roberto Martinez. And no disrespect to Roberto Martinez, but I can't really remember anything that he said. Whereas Ronaldo spoke for maybe half an hour and kind of just held the room in the palm of his hand. At times, he was quite combative. I think it's fair to say there was a lot of antipathy from him towards the media, all kind of delivered with a smile but also with a kind of steely glint that kind of left you in no doubt how he feels about bad press and at one point he even he said you've been trying to kill me for 23 years haven't you realized yet that isn't worthwhile and at one point he even pointed out a journalist to he feels has written negatively about him and he said i i never forget a face i i only have to see someone once and i'll remember them um but he was also at times very funny he was very sincere i think.

39:06And he told a lot of stories sort of encompassing his entire career really from, you know, it was incredibly, it was in Euro 2004 that we, that he first played his first major international tournament. You know, I was in Qatar four years ago when Portugal were beaten by Morocco, at which moment you would have, you know, been pretty certain that he, that was his, the end of his World Cup career and he left the pitch in tears looking absolutely distraught. And I think a lot of people will expect a similar reaction from him tomorrow, probably if Portugal lose to Spain, but he claimed to be very at peace with, you know, the possibility that he'll end his career without winning the World Cup.

40:00And he said, you know, I've given football everything that I have and whatever happens tomorrow, I will leave the pitch with a clear conscience. Whether I win the World Cup in my career or I don't, I'm not going to be more Cristiano or less Cristiano for it. really interesting cristiano ronaldo firing some shots at journalists i mean mad stuff to hear him just pointing people out going i know you you didn't you slagged me off before yeah just just great fun really really interesting stuff we will see what he can deliver if anything against a good spain team tomorrow but i mentioned the times at world cup newsletter pete every day of this world cup i've been editing the world cup newsletter for our subscribers every day I have to pick a match of the day.

40:48I woke up this morning thinking, well, this is job done. Spain, Portugal, no problem. Easy choice for match of the day. Then along comes Gianni Infantino, FIFA, and that bloke called Donald Trump. And we've got a suspended red card for following Balogun. Have you ever seen anything like it? You thought this podcast had it all in terms of drama at the World Cup. Unbelievable. Can I just say, I was walking around my living room, ranting and raving and putting it on social media about how upset I was about that being a red card I think everyone agrees but Pete just tell us you were in the USA camp when this news broke tell us about it and catch listeners up on what the latest is yeah it was quite funny because we were we were I'm in Seattle at the moment and I was just heading to um the Husky Soccer Stadium which is uh the University of Washington facility and what's funny like I you know we thought the biggest story from the u.s camp this week you know ahead of the game would just be the fact that they have erected these sort of tau paulin fences these they basically put up these fences but some brown plastic over them and there's only five of them and just in between where the trees are because the u.s are worried that there's a sight line and in case anyone from like the belgian team was spying so we thought oh that's quite a fun story and pochettino and we were last in seattle had been up on this bank and had filmed it and he joked in a press conference or we're in an era of spies Well, they genuinely do think they're worse spies.

42:10So we thought that was most interesting. But, you know, we turn up today, we're all queuing to get in to do this security before we enter the facility where the players will speak. Yeah, then the phone starts ringing. And following Balogun, we learn, will be available to face Belgium, despite being sent off and receiving an automatic one-match ban that supposedly there is no recourse for appeal, which is what we were told immediately after the game against Bosnia-Herzegovina when he was sent off. But FIFA have invoked the magical Article 27, which has been used before to help Cristiano Ronaldo play a full part in this World Cup.

42:54And they, without really explaining how this has happened, have invoked Article 27 to suspend his one match ban, which is supposed to be automatic according to the disciplinary code for a year. So he will be available. Obviously, this was quite the story. We then asked the players how they found out. So first up was Chris Richards, the Crystal Palace defender. He basically said, yeah, we were on the coach just coming to training and we saw it on social media and I thought it was AI, one of those AI slot posts that we see everywhere these days. It turns out that when they got there, they found out it was true.

43:31obviously they're pleased. Balogun is a top scorer. He's been fantastic for the US. He makes a difference. The next big thing is, well, how are Belgium going to react to this? So we head over to the Seattle Stadium, otherwise known as Lumen Field, or when it's non-FIFA purposes, where Rudy Garcia, the Belgian coach, addressed the media alongside Thibaut Courtois. Belgium released a statement just before that where they described it as astonishing. They said they would consider all options available to protect the integrity of the competition in the sport. Garcia, clearly, had a prepped line because he came in.

44:08The first thing he said was, I didn't know that July 5th, which is today's day, is April Fool's for FIFA. So it didn't go down particularly well with Belgium. But the story is more to this story in terms of how this came about. And part of that, as you mentioned, is the fact that It's our understanding that Donald Trump called Gianni Infantino about the red card. The US soccer said that they were engaged in that process, the disciplinary process. My understanding of that is that their legal team presented a case based on reviewing of slow motion images on VAR. Remarkable stuff. Genuinely astonishing to see.

44:49Donald Trump then posted on Truth Social saying that great injustice has been overseen. And look, in my opinion, like you, Tom, never a red card. Never a red card. The problem is that they have seemingly gone through their disciplinary code to change the circumstances that have allowed a player to play when otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do so. Genuinely, astonishing. I mean, Maurizio Pochettino then came out and said, look, we've been punished enough because we played half an hour with 10 men. We should celebrate this. and then also highlighted the fact that they sort of pushed to change it.

45:26There'll be more to it once we get to the game tomorrow and I'm sure if the US beat Belgium it will escalate again. My understanding is that they're considering taking it to CAS, called arbitration for sports. There's room for this story to run and run. But one feeling I have, because the vibes of the US team and Bochettino as I've had multiple times this podcast you'll have noticed it from the staff of Ryan it's been really positive it's been a good story it's been a great story about a team that's coming together bringing a lot of people together here behind the team you know the Bosnia game had the highest was the most watched soccer game in the United States ever period like it was more than 33 an hour million people saw it this is going to leave an asterisk that's why they shouldn't play them Gregor I'll come to you in fact in just a second to wrap up Gregor for the final question but Pete mentioned the word asterisk there that is the exact word that Martin Samuel, our chief correspondent, has used in a headline on the Times website saying, whatever USA achieve now, this World Cup will carry an asterisk.

46:24His intro reads, why do folk think the worst of FIFA? It just saves time. It has taken the best part of a month to get here, but Sunday was the day football's governing body laid waste to its own tournament. Gregor, your reaction to some of what Pete said and to this, just to finally wrap it up, because as I say, it does tee up another massive day tomorrow. Yeah, I mean, there's just a feeling that, like, if you're Mauricio Pochettino and knowing all that Pete just said about the atmosphere he's cultivated and the positivity I think it would be a mistake to play him and I know you can counter that by saying he shouldn't have been sent off in the first place and that's fair enough but he was and for him to be kind of pardoned like this because of a back kind of a deal in back channels is an absolute disgrace and you think you get to a point with FIFA where nothing can surprise you I mean, they say that they couldn't interfere when fans are barred from entering the country or when Iran were treated abominably by the states or when Omar Arta and the Somalian referee was denied entry or we can't interfere in any of these things but when a country makes a call and says I think you should try and interfere in this it's just extraordinary extraordinary stuff so like I say I think Mauricio Pochettino is a smart guy and I think he'll have sort of deep deep misgivings about about the way this has happened even if it is good for his team to have their star striker back I think it would be a mistake for him to play him Just very quickly Pete a yes or no do you think he'll play him?

48:08I don't know I don't know because I agree with Gregor I mean I A lot of what I've covered at this tournament on the West Coast has been about integrity at the World Cup, dealing a lot with what Iran were dealing with. This is the most extraordinary story. I think Greg was right. I wouldn't play him, but he's been so important to them and he's available. So sometimes you look at that and you just play the cards in front of you. I don't know. Does that change what's happened, if he plays or not? I don't think so. I think the damage is done. It does if he scores. does it does if he scores the last minute winner we will see uh pete ruttsley will be there for that huge game tomorrow uh thank you very much for joining us pete from the states thank you very much gregor for joining us thank you to to matt lawton allison rudd and james grierbant for those amazing voice notes different insights matt lawton i think taking the win so far for best voice note of the tournament uh thank you too for listening it's been an absolutely brilliant show this is an absolutely brilliant tournament we've got plenty more to come tomorrow we will see you then.

49:21Monday.com AI agents took over my work and I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. I stay in the loop only when it matters. Create your own AI agent in minutes on monday.com.