WORLD CUP DAY 26: Ronaldo out and Balogun can't save USA

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1:06Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 26 of our daily World Cup shows and it's been another big night of knockout action as Spain beat Portugal and Belgium dumped out a dismal Team USA. I'm Tom Clark and in part two of today's show I'll be chatting to Paul Hurst about Argentina and the final round of 16 games. But first, I'm joined by the football reporter and Times columnist James Geerbrandt to review the latest action. We will start with a huge defeat for the co-host USA, beaten 4-1 by Belgium after a week of controversy surrounding Folarin Balogun, the Red Card, FIFA, Donald Trump.

1:50Peter Rutzler was reporting on this game for the Times and sent me these thoughts just after the game finished. Well in the end it was comprehensive for Belgium and it's you know it's hard not to feel like the last 36 hours have flipped the momentum switch really for these two teams heading into this game you know there'd been some questions about Belgium and their performances there had been excitement about the way the United States were playing but rather than the US entering this game with a chip on their shoulder about a you know a dismal red card really for Balogun against Bosnia it it flipped the switch and it was Belgium who felt the injustice and used that as fuel to fire them to a really comprehensive victory over the United States who never really got going.

2:32This was very alien to the performances that we've seen from Richo Pochettino's team. Their passing structures were awry, they were hesitant, they lacked the usual intensity and Belgium were better from the first minute. They created multiple chances and they could have been out of sight by half time. It is worth emphasising that we haven't really seen this US defence tested in this tournament, not properly. I mean the US have started strongly in all of their games, scored within the first 15 minutes in the first three games. Here they really were put under the microscope and as I've written in my report, quite a few ailments came up.

3:09And I think the third goal summed everything up. It's a total car crash as Matt freezes by not clearing as he gets around to Catalara and he nicks it back. and Vanak and strokes it into the net and Tim Ream could clear it but doesn't. It's also one of those goals that you kind of think, well, if you're in the wrong headspace, those kind of things could happen. And it's just hard not to feel like there was an element of distraction given everything that happens around Foller and Balogun in the build-up to this game. Very interesting to see as I'm just going into Richard Pochettino's press conference now what he thinks about it.

3:39But, you know, considering the joy, the goodwill, the togetherness, it's a really lovely group of players that the United States squad have got for it to end like this is it's a real blow and I think I think what will hurt more than anything is that US can play better than this and we didn't see that but a massive result for Belgium playing without Jeremy Doku and Kevin De Bruyne from the start really really fluid in the way they attacked really conceded very little by way of chances it's the kind of result that can really ignite a tournament campaign so it should set them up for an interesting clash for Spain but huge disappointment for the hosts after what has otherwise been a positive tournament up to now James really interesting thoughts from Pete there at the ground and lots to unpack but I think the first thing to say interesting to hear him you know highlight what I think I would agree with and I'm interested to know whether you agree as well this looked like a Team USA very distracted on the field by events off it what did you think I suspect that some of that may come out over the coming days um it will be interesting to see what does but for me this was just this was a performance that i it reminded me almost it may be a weird comparison to make but it reminds me almost of brazil in the 98 world cup final or inter milan in the champions league final two seasons ago just a complete non-performance when it mattered most at a point where the team had seemed to be peeking towards just a complete non-performance really surprising to me because i had felt this was quite an even game quite a 50 50 match sort of saw it as belgium probably having a slight talent advantage usa probably having a slight coaching advantage i'd in the previous games that i'd seen i'd thought they just looked like a really well organized kind of almost like a club team a team where those relationships were really well proved what this game also makes me think is that maybe perhaps i'd overestimated maybe we all had the the coaching advantage that the usa had and maybe underestimated the talent advantage that belgium had because they just look like a much much better team with much better players and you know really it is it is fascinating because is you think of the way that Christian Pulisic is perceived in the US, where he's sort of this Captain America figure who's in every commercial.

6:14If you didn't know a lot about football, you could sort of be forgiven for thinking he was like the football version of Tom Brady or LeBron. And then if you think about how someone like Leandro Trossard is perceived in the UK, kind of perceived as being a bit of a lie, yeah, he's all right. He's like an okay Premier League player. and actually the reality is Leandro Trossard is brilliant footballer and Christian Pulisic is not at that level he's a good player but Leandro Trossard is a much better player than anyone on that USA team and didn't it look like a yeah absolutely a really interesting comparison there I think it kind of drives home that this World Cup when you get to clutch moments when you get to knockout games you know the cream rises to the top doesn't it I mean that Trossard assist as well the little chipped cross I was looking at it thinking that's exactly the same as Saka's for Bellingham for England you know the one that we were waxing lyrical about on yesterday's show it's brilliant from Saka I'm watching that thinking that's exactly the same Trossard's just done exactly what Saka did with just as much quality just on an opposite wing we're going to talk about Belgium in just a second but I mean for the USA it makes me think of something them our colleague Tom Allnott said to me as he often does on this podcast calming me down when I'm in desperate search of hot takes and things early on in the tournament he said look Tom this is a marathon this tournament and teams might peak at right times and things but you just wonder whether team USA as well they they they were spent they gave everything in the group stage with some great performances in Paraguay you know they peaked in Paraguay really didn't they they peaked in that first game and that great performance Pochettino on the sidelines kicking water bottles and things like this is a frustrating end for him hasn't it there's why not us and all this kind of furore and excitement that he managed to build it's a very frustrating end to concede the goals as they did that that third goal farcical comical almost you know sunday league level fourth goal was as bad maybe i mean maybe not as bad but pretty pretty pretty poor pretty bad and as you say it's just such a such a shame for them to go out with a whimper because the co-hosts all doing well had been a great part of this tournament and you have now all of all three of them out mexico only just to england of course and you know they played brilliantly in that game but usa really really faltering as you say when it matters most do you do what in a football sense you kind of touched on it there do you think it's maybe is that actually this round of 16 was about par for them anyway this is about as good as it gets that's possibly part of it i think you know are the usa among the best eight teams eight international teams in the world probably not certainly you know after this performance i don't think anyone but even you know even prior to this you know i think it would still have been i think for them to reach a quarterfinal would have been a big a big achievement it would have felt like a step as it is they're left having gone out in the round of 16 which is the stage that they've reached a lot of times before and probably with a worse performance than you know maybe even four years ago against the netherlands very disappointing for pochettino but i think he also you know has to kind of i guess take his share of the blame if you want to use that word um it's put in a pochettino context he had looked like someone who had done a really great job with this team and now whether if you know there's speculation that potentially his journey with the u.s team might end at this point and he might seek another club job and if he does so he'll go into it with a slightly less of a bounce than than it made he look like he was he was going to yeah definitely I mean it's interesting as well to think we all deal in narratives and big stories myself and Pete Rutzler were chatting before this game and being like oh it's another big night we're all expecting Balogun to score the narrative to continue and but actually in footballing terms the better team won because let's talk about Belgium one of the more remarkable stories of this tournament for me having watched all the games I didn't fancy them at all during the group stage I was like I even think I said refer to them on this podcast with Gregor Robertson once as being a waste of a tournament space because I was like I've seen all these guys before I'm just not that excited about them like they're not playing that well Lukaku trotting on and managing to score goals impressively but I'm like gosh but this was a brilliant performance how much of it was down do you think to the revs that they'd have got from the kind of feeling uh hard done by with the Balogun red card or do you think that maybe as I say referring to Tom Allnott and things this was just a team peaking at the right time with a with a pack full of experience i i think this was this was probably belgium's best tournament performance i mean for a for a long long time to be honest may you know maybe you even go back to that world cup of 2018 for the last time that belgium put to played such a good such a good tournament game yes you would you would expect that they took some they drew some motivation from the balligan thing i have no idea how you know how sort of aware they were of some of the kind of discourse out here but you've had a lot of you know there have a lot been a lot of america american figures sort of there's there's been this this quite uh sort of you know widespread notion that belgium were trying to get you know because they were trying to get a lesser player to play in this game because they were scared of facing america usa team at full strength and you know why you you know if anyone if anyone had any wind of that then you know there's your there's your team talk isn't it really really good game by them i have to say uh you know some flowers for rudy garcia as well because he'd come in for quite a bit of criticism uh in this tournament and in his tenure generally sort of seen as quite a kind of uninspiring figure not someone who's really kind of get you know getting the most out of what i think is still a talented squad with some good players obviously it's you know it's not the it's not the vintage of 2018 or 2020 but he he's had a great couple of games you know when uh when they were two nil down to senegal and he took off jeremy dokku and kevin de brunner i think there were a lot of obituaries being written for rudy garcia a lot of people saying what is he doing you know was i saying that on some of my group chats no i wouldn't want to say but maybe yes and whether those changes were directly responsible for getting the you know the two goals back against senegal who knows but he's had a brilliant game and a half everything he's done since then has been absolutely spot on thought he you know spoke well about the balagan controversy as well clearly prepared the team well sent them out they looked super super motivated looked like a team that really knew the job that it was out there to do and and i think for me the sort of almost the most surprising bit of the match was the first 10 minutes because you expected the usa to come out sort of on a wall of noise maybe play a little bit like canada did in the first 10 minutes against morocco where they were just on that wave of intensity um but it was nothing of the sort they were they were just they were on the rack from minute one they couldn't get out in that first 10 minutes had a good chance well saved by frees and the goal the goal was coming and that just set the pattern of the whole match really yeah a great example of how just how culture the football thinker james gearbrand is because he's chatting about rudy garcia in his whatsapp uh chats uh in the last couple of days whilst the rest of us have all just been going, Dan Byrne, what a brilliant header, amazing stuff.

13:56That's just the broad range of thinking that we get from Times columnists. I mean, it is a remarkable thing with Belgium, though, because you've got Axel Witzel trotting off the bench. I was half expecting Jan Vertonghen and Toby Aldovar to be trotting off as well. I mean, this is still the old boys, isn't it? I mean, and Romelu Lukaku, he's got, is it three goals now? He's making a late charge for the golden boot. This would be one of the more extraordinary extraordinary things if Belgium keep progressing in this tournament a great example of peaking at the right time and as you say kudos to Rudy Garcia and I hold my hands up I definitely had written them off long long time ago way in the group stages I didn't think they'd play a part in this World Cup but they have come to the party they will face Spain in the quarterfinals let's talk about that game you were there James and there's a nice link between Belgium and this narrative because of course Portugal managed by Roberto Martinez a man who was in charge for the golden generation of Belgian football at their peak he's now failed you have to say with Portugal one of the great Portugal sides and a lot of the potential blame for that will lie at the feet of Martinez for his decision to continually play Cristiano Ronaldo nearly every minute of the tournament so far we should just say I'm sure you would agree with me in a quick assessment that this was a really poor game between a group of footballers who should be producing a lot better yeah it was a slightly disappointing game uh the first sort of quarter of the game was quite good quite a lot of good chances and then it sort of really kind of didn't pick up steam from that point not the game that we were hoping for especially not after often last night it kind of paled in paled in comparison a bit yeah i mean we we were chatting about this weren't we james when we're talking about the pieces pieces you're going to write and things and i was watching thinking, trying to come up with a counter view and be like, oh, well, you know, if I was Martinez, I'd probably set up like this.

15:51And it's a very good Spain team. This is a midfield pact with players who can control the ball. And then all of a sudden I had to stop myself and go, hang on a minute, Tom. This Portugal team has got a midfield of Vitinha, Giaunevas and Bruno Fernandes. This is on par. There's just something stopping them. And it's the fact that they are essentially playing with 10 men because of Cristiano Ronaldo. you can't escape this narrative can you with this Portugal team and that's what Martinez has done it means that this follows them around everywhere doesn't it yeah I mean so so many thoughts on that I mean for me first of all I would say you said that you felt Roberto Martinez had failed with this Portuguese golden generation completely agree and for me this failure is much worse than his failure with the Belgium team.

16:38I think his achievements with the Belgian team, whilst I think it's fair to say that he could have done better, I think that 2018 World Cup campaign was quite good and they obviously, you know, they lost a close semi-final against France. I know he's won the Nations League with Portugal, but for me this stands as a bigger and more glaring failing and and also because it's so obviously at his door it's so obviously at his door because of the the usage of Ronaldo I know this is not this is not an original point and it is you know it is crazy to me that in we were all we were you know there we were three and a half years ago at the 2022 World Cup two whole tournaments ago when uh Ronaldo was left out in the round of 16 and and Gonzalo Ramos scored a hat-trick in his stead.

17:34And then Ronaldo came back for the quarterfinal against Morocco, didn't do anything, and Portugal lost. And he went down the tunnel, obviously, in tears. And at the time, that felt so conclusive, didn't it? Yeah. That just seemed to settle the issue. It's just like, well, it's so obvious that, you know, Portugal are a better team without Ronaldo in the starting 11, that you just you wouldn't you would never have thought that four years later we'd be having the same conversation and i think that's what's that's what's so you know look football is you know it's it's a it's a game teams can fail teams can be outplayed by better teams and that's all fine and you know maybe you know sometimes we all get too angry about it but i think people are rightly frustrated with Roberto Martinez.

18:26And it's this sense of waste. This is a very good, exceptional generation of Portuguese footballers. For a country of 10 million people, this does not come around often. For a country of such a small population size to have, as you say, a midfield three of Vitinha, Joao Neves and Bruno Fanage, this is quite possibly the best midfield three at the tournament and these international tournaments are precious they only come around once every two years you you every generation only gets so many chances and portugal have wasted their last three tournaments as such an as such an obvious issue so obviously holding them back and the other thing that is that i think is so So, you know, people like to hate on Ronaldo.

19:17And yes, of course, clearly he's in some ways a flawed character. But as many, you know, ultra elite sports people are, by the way, you know, very, very often we see with that type of character that, you know, ultra elite sports people find it very, very hard to stop. You look at a Tiger Woods, for example. That is why in football, the manager is there to be the adult in the room. The manager is there to say, no, you can't play every minute because you're 41. And I think what's frustrating as well is I believe there is a world where Cristiano Ronaldo could be a part of a good Portugal squad at this tournament.

20:03If Cristiano Ronaldo was here to come off the bench for 10 minutes when Portugal need a goal, maybe to take a penalty in a shootout, it would be no less remarkable an achievement for him to be playing a major tournament 22 years after his first. It would not demean or diminish that achievement in any way. But it's just ludicrous that this guy who is 41 years old has played every minute bar nine of this tournament and had this game gone to extra time, which it very easily could have done, then Portugal had made their five subs. So he would have been playing 120 minutes. for me it's just it's an inexplicable failure to recognise something so glaring yeah it's weak from Martinez sorry to say that but it really is yeah I couldn't agree more and I think you make such a good point about Ronaldo and it kind of adding to the kind of tarnish that's been put on the end of his career I mean some of the nicest and best moments of Ronaldo's Portugal career have actually come for me when he's been on the touchline like there was the injury in the euro 2016 final where he essentially just turned into the second manager just stood in the technical area barking instructions and encouragement his teammates and there was also the the penalty shootout as well where footage emerged afterwards of him encouraging um i think it was moutinho to take a penalty and saying come on jared you know come on take a penalty you can take it you know you'll be you'll be brave etc i mean he is a leader he is a character you he could he could have taken on that kind of uh elder statesman vibes man type guy um and and as you say roberto martinez has just denied him and us that and it means that now his legacy is tarnished with this like oh he's the old cart horse up front this guy was one of the greatest footballers of the last 20 20 30 50 years it's such a shame it's such a shame a hundred percent there was absolutely a role for ronaldo at this world cup i believe you know it is a sort of as an equivalent of what england have with jordan henderson if he'd been there as a leader an inspirational figure to have around the squad as i say to come off and play you know maybe even to play 20 30 minutes when portugal need a goal you know that would have been a perfectly legitimate way to use him you know sometimes sometimes sports people need saving from themselves you make you make a great point because now the last three tournaments that Ronaldo has played at will be remembered as ego trips be remembered as you know tournaments where his ego diminished the Portuguese team and it didn't have to be that way and i think rudy garcia you know is a great counterpoint to bring in here because you know his you look at his uh usage of kevin de burner you know who is you know someone who hesitates say he has equivalent status to cristiano ronaldo because ronaldo is one of the all-time all-time greats but clearly an absolutely huge figure in belgian football and one of the best they've ever had yeah is rudy garcia as good a manager as kevin de brunner was a player no he's not he's not a figure of equal stature but but that's so but the manager can still the manager is the manager and the manager can always be strong and say no you know it's time for you i'm not suggesting that kevin de brunner is you know uh is it necessary is at all unhappy with being subbed off by the way i'm sure he's a consumer team pro but um but the point is that the manager is there to be strong and say this is what's best for the team not to yeah sometimes players need saving from themselves and and i think that's that for me is the is the really frustrating aspect of you know i think martinez could have could have done ronaldo a favor here by by being stronger yeah and in the opposite dugout luis de la fuente making some good managerial changes in this game and probably showing the strength and depth of this Spain squad.

24:20Just a quick word on them. We asked Peter Rutzler, he saw their previous game. Is there a kind of quiet momentum building behind this Spain team? They head into this game with Belgium now with the potential. Obviously, France have got to get past Morocco as well. Two really exciting quarterfinals, but there is this kind of potential building towards the idea of a France-Spain semifinal. Did you see that in this Spain team? Did you see a team that are just starting to deliver at the right time? Yeah, I think Spain will absolutely be favourites to beat Belgium. And I could certainly see them beating France.

24:54I know everyone thinks that France are the best team in this half of the draw, probably the best team in the tournament. I think that's true. I get that. But this is a very good Spain team. You know, they still haven't conceded a goal in the tournament. Of course, their defence is going to be tested more against the better teams. but this is a very very good spain team i think they have lost a little bit from the the level that they were at in euro 2024 i think the the sort of the i know he's in the squad but the loss of nico of 2024 nico williams alex bianna is a good player but i think they've lost a little bit of dynamism a little bit of threat in behind don't think you know great crazy to say this given that he was 16 two years ago but i don't think jamal is playing quite as well as he was when he was 16 years old at euro 2024 i i think he i know he's sort of had his sort of struggles with fitness this season but um which probably explains that but i think they are for they're a formidable team i think it will take a really really good team to beat spain at this tournament yeah really interesting prospect we're going to talk with paul hurst about the other half of the draw in part two of the show but just before we let you go james we're still luxuriating we're still reveling in that amazing england win against mexico where where were you to watch this game was it a setting with delayed tv screens and packed crowds or were you able to actually enjoy one of the great games of this tournament yeah so i watched it at a restaurant in dallas with a couple of the other journalists are out here we actually had a great setup we we were a nice restaurant on the terrace nice fan going overhead great view of the screen no no complaints could not be better for me it's the it's the best england match of of my lifetime to be honest it was it was brilliant brilliant to watch yeah absolutely delighted to hear you say that james we're similar ages and i definitely voted it for it as the best england game of my lifetime too listeners we will be hearing from martin samuel and the rest of the england camp in tomorrow's show.

27:07James Gearbrand, thank you very much for joining me for now. Stick with us though, listeners. We're going to be chatting to Paul Hurst in the second part of the show just after a quick break. We'll be back in a second.

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28:20Well, it's easier than you think. We're A-Cast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch and if you want a hand our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence this is podcast advertising without barriers get started at acast.com slash advertise welcome back to the game football podcast from the times of sunday times these are our daily world cup shows i'm tom clark and i've chuffed to say that for part two of today's episode i'm joined by paul hurst the man in the argentina camp hurstie just before we talk about argentina and things so much of this week is all going to be about england and that amazing night in mexico last night we had pete rutzler join us from america as well where did you watch the game were you able to take it in were you surrounded by mexico fans were you able to celebrate or enjoy it in any way.

29:26I just watched it in a bar with a fellow journalist, James Robson from AP, who's obviously English as well. We watched it in a bar, just a normal kind of dive bar, really. There were four Mexican people on the table next, so it was a bit of a back and forth between, a bit of banter between us and all that kind of thing. but to be honest I was silent for most of it apart from the odd scream and screech because I just found it so stressful I went to Argentina's training session this morning and I was speaking to a couple of the journos there and they were like are you alright? You look a bit white and I was like yeah it's a very stressful night and it was kind of like and they were like oh yeah because they had watched it as well and I think they secretly, or not even secretly, they want to play England, I think, in the semi-finals.

30:25I think that would just be such a big thing for them. So, yeah, no, it was a great night. It was painful that last half an hour, wasn't it? But it was just such a great performance, something that I didn't see coming. I just didn't think they would have had the character to get through that final half hour. So, fair play to them. yeah absolutely a player that I mentioned on yesterday's show is kind of slightly flying under the radar in terms of really consistent performances is a man that you'll be covering a lot next season Elliot Anderson um you know has it been confirmed by the way completed this move to City I know we've talked about this 160 million pound fee but anyway he's on his way isn't he uh to Manchester City um that is a huge move but obviously he's producing isn't he for England and I kind of almost already justifying it I was saying on yesterday's show I mean he looks like a£100 million midfielder.

31:19Yeah, well, that's it. Every midfielder, every decent midfielder has£100 million now, isn't he? So that's the kind of going rate, unfortunately. But yeah, he has been brilliant. I thought that right from the first minute, the Croatia game, I thought he was brilliant then. He just seems to have developed that aura about him, that presence that you get with more confidence over time. I just think he's in the right place at the right time as well. You never see him desperately lunging in for tackles, do you? He always seems to be on his feet and just picking the ball off the opposition rather than sliding in and panicking.

32:00He just seems to be very kind of calm and controlled. They are a very good pairing, him and Rice. And he's also, you know, Rice isn't at full fitness, is he, clearly? So Anderson's doing his job and a little bit more. so even more credit to him for that. So yeah, I think he'll fit in brilliantly with City next season. I think it's a very good buy. Yeah, let's not get into the Premier League pre-season previews just yet. We've got plenty of this World Cup still to enjoy but it is Argentina that we're here to talk about. We obviously heard from you with a brilliant note from the ground after that remarkable game against Cape Verde.

32:38I mean, as you can see from this call, I've got my shirt on. The Cape Verde shirt has finally arrived slightly late for the bandwagon I'd got to say but you know I'm still I'm still Cape Verde I'm Cape Verde for life now I've got the shirt on I'm still not quite over that game against Argentina what what was the mood amongst the Argentina media uh after that game because watching it and I watched it back and I watched some of the highlights and there's been some good clips doing the rounds of like you know Messi's reaction to Cabral's goal and stuff and him you know puffing his cheeks out as if to say bloody hell Cape Verde are giving us a game here What was the reaction amongst the Argentine media to this?

33:13Because so much has been made about this kind of procession that they're getting straight to the final, yada, yada, yada. But they didn't look all that in this game, did they? They had to work really hard to get through. Yeah, and I fell into that trap. I thought they'd pretty much got a bite to the semifinals, which was completely blown out of the water by that performance from Cape Verde in Miami. I think during the match, it's interesting. I think we've spoken about this before, where the American press boxers are largely indoors. You get to... Normally, you're supposed to remain impartial.

33:50That's our way of doing things, that kind of thing. Whether that would be the case if I was in the press box and Harry Kane scored the winning goal in the World Cup final is a different matter, possibly. No, no, no. You've been sent out to cover Argentina now. You've chosen your side. I've got tattoos and everything. If this semi-final rolls around, you've picked your side mate don't worry Matt Lawton and Hamza and Martin Samuel will be giving you daggers across the press box being like oh no no no yeah no change my middle name to Diego yeah that's it so yeah but during that match they were the Cape Verde match when Lissandro Martínez scored to put them ahead there was absolute bedlam you know they were on the feet of the Argentinian journalists shouting screaming and to the point where the FIFA FIFA media liaison person went over and said can you like, can you calm me down a bit lads please, this is a bit too raucous but it was the same again when the winner went in from Romero they just, they're so passionate about their team passionate about the World Cup, that's why they've got more fans here I guess than anyone else I would imagine and they make the biggest racket out of a lot of them as well so So, yeah, it was...

35:09They were really relieved after the final, so you could tell, just like the players. When the players were walking through the mix zone, the interview area, they looked like they knew they'd sort of got off the hook, really, with that one. It was a very bad performance, particularly at the start of the second half. So, yeah, it's a real kind of warning shot for them going into the latter stages. It won't be a walk in the park as many people have predicted. Yeah, and it's a good reminder going into this game against Egypt that you'll be covering for us. And before we even start talking about semifinals and things, they then have a potential quarterfinal against either Switzerland or Colombia.

35:50So, I mean, how are they looking at this Egypt game? Egypt, a team I've seen in this tournament, have kind of faltered at times but occasionally looked good. They've got their own kind of ageing superstar in the form of Mo Salah up front. He doesn't look fully fit, I've got to say, but he's kind of limping and hobbling his way through and he remains a talisman for them. So, I mean, how are Argentina approaching this? As you mentioned earlier, you've been down at the press day, you've been down at the training camp. Like, what's the mood going into this game? And did you manage to catch a glimpse of Lionel Messi stood in the sun?

36:25Yeah, he eventually appeared after they kept us waiting for two hours in the baking hot sun, you know, small violin time and all that kind of stuff for a whining journalist. But yeah, I think that just from talking to people down there, they seem quite content with how they are at the moment. I think they knew that they were lucky to get through, but I just think they think, you know, by hook or crook, just as long as they get through, they're happy with that. and they've got a... He likes to rotate anyway, Scaloni. I think he would have made changes anyway to keep players fresh. If you've got a 26-man squad, if you don't use one or two of them at all, it's not going to be great for their morale, isn't it?

37:20So I think he would have made a couple of changes anyway. I think they'll bring in Tagliifico at left-back for Medina, who had a bit of a shocker against Kate Verde. Probably change up front again. That's the big question that he's not really solved. The riddle that he's not really solved at the moment is whether Lautaro Martinez or Julian Alvarez plays alongside Messi. Probably go for Julian on this one. And then Paredes has played very well when he's come on. He's very dynamic and he's very good at pressing opposition players. So he probably will start. They'll probably clog that midfielder with four central midfielders.

37:59we spoke about it before you look at the team on paper you just think, crikey Leandro Paredes, he plays for Boca Juniors now in his 30s Rodrigo de Paul plays into Miami, 32 I think he is, Alexis McAllister had a poor season with Liverpool and he's been playing as a number 5 here as well and Enzo Fernandes has been playing deep as well so it's kind of a strange mix of midfielders that they've got but he just seems to work, they seem to know each other's positions which is the most important thing and it's a very hard-working midfield so that'll be the key for them Salah, they will obviously be worried about Salah but even though he's sort of doing what Messi's doing, isn't he?

38:45He's conserving his energy and using it when he needs to I was looking at a clip of Messi before the first goal the other night and he just walks around for about two minutes It's just like he's walking across the edge of the box. And then all of a sudden he's through, cushions the ball and then scores. So that's how he's playing his game. And I think from what I've seen of Egypt, Salah's doing the same. He's clearly not at full fitness at all. But he can still change the game in an instant. So that factor and the fact that they nearly lost to Cape Verde will give Argentina a bit more of a wake-up call.

39:26They'll be quite alert when it comes to the Egypt match. Yeah, you talk about Salah there and managing fitness and things. Cristiano Ronaldo bows out of this World Cup after so much talk around the minutes that he's played for Portugal. Is there a world in which Messi gets taken off? What is it? Is it 4-0 up? Is it 3-0 up? Because we're sat here talking before this round of 16 game. then as I say there's a potential very challenging clash with either Colombia or Switzerland two very good solid sides in a quarterfinal then there could be a potential semi-final against England or Norway before they even get to the final so this this idea maybe of a procession is starting to change in everyone's minds he is at the towards the end of his career however long you think he'll play what what is the scenario in which Lionel Messi gets rested in the knockouts does it exist or does he stay on the pitch strutting about because he can produce magic out of nothing?

40:22Like I say, he just walks through a game, so he doesn't really seem that tired, to be honest. If you look at the distance covered, it's minimal. I unfortunately don't have the exact figures to hand, but I was looking at it before the KVrd game and he'd covered as much ground as one of the players who played one match against Jordan. That's the way that he operates now. He conserves his energy and uses it when he needs to. But that said, they all put a shift in for 120 minutes against Cape Verde. So that's going to have taken its toll on them. So I think if they do get into a situation where they are comfortably ahead against Egypt, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually singled himself to come off because he's a very sensible guy.

41:15He's the opposite of Ronaldo. He's very selfless and he would... I don't think he's that bothered about the golden boot. If he came to it tomorrow and they were well ahead and he'd not scored, I don't think he'd be that bothered. If he fell his hamstring heptide or something, he'd signal straight away and come off. So, yeah, it could happen. They do need to conserve his energy because these knockout games are coming around pretty quickly. They're every four or five days and they're moving a lot between cities as well. So it'll certainly be on Scaloni's mind. And I don't think he's... They've got such a good relationship, Scaloni and Messi, that it'll be a conversation between them and there won't be any kind of conflict at all between them.

42:01Yeah, really interesting. Just before you let me go, Hersty, you did tease the prospect earlier about this kind of England-Argentina semi-final. There's a long way to go. England have to beat a very impressive Norway team. And as we've said, there are two matches for Argentina to get through to make it happen. But just give us another sense to finish of this kind of chat that's starting to build, the murmurs that are starting to come around amongst the journalists that you're kind of hanging out with. There's a thirst for it, is there, amongst the Argentine pack? Well, the fans always sing about the English.

42:34there's one of the chances if you don't bounce you're an Englishman if you don't get over you're an Englishman and they all start bouncing in the stands and that goes on for quite a long time and one of the journalists I was with at the last match was nudging me when that was on we're singing about you again kind of thing so I think there is a bit of a yearning for it personally I think England wouldn't beat Argentina, I want England to win the World Cup who doesn't as an Englishman but I just I don't think we beat Argentina at all I think they're just such a good unit that they beat us, they all know their roles perfectly, they've won it before they've won the Copa America twice as well as a squad so they've just got that knack of doing enough to get over the line and knowing what's what's required but it would be I don't think Messi's ever played against England has he?

43:38I think that's one thing Yeah I think that sounds about right that's one thing that you know the neutrals would probably like to see or you know as a prospect we'd maybe like to see it but I just don't see a way in which England would overcome that would come through that match but they've got to beat Norway first Exactly and I'm the total pessimist don't you it's yeah let's cross that bridge when we come to it. But there was a bit of talk in the media, in the Argentinian media about it. So yeah, it's definitely on their radar. Yeah, really interesting. The Dan Byrne hero arc, 15 minutes in the Azteca.

44:15Then shackles Erling Haaland and then takes on Lionel Messi and sends England to a World Cup final. Written in the stars, wasn't it? There's a long, long way to go. But it's an interesting and tantalising prospect. But there's a long way to go for Argentina as well. They've got Egypt up first. Paul Hurst will be reporting from that match on the Times website and Hursty hopefully will hear from you in voice note form after that game as well. Thank you very much for joining me on today's show. Thank you too to James Gearbrown and Peter Rutzler in part one. Thank you for listening. We will be back tomorrow.

44:45We'll see you then.

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