WORLD CUP DAY 27: Argentina win another thriller, is England their destiny?

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1:10Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is day 27 of our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clark and in part two of today's show, I'll be chatting to Martin Samuel to hear why he thinks England's win in Mexico was their greatest World Cup triumph since 1966. And we'll start our preview for the big clash with Norway. But first, I'm joined by the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson to wrap up the round of 16 action. And we had controversy, comebacks and some stunning goals. But that was all in the first game as Argentina beat Egypt 3-2. They were 2-0 down in this one, look to be dead and buried.

1:52Paul Hurst was there for us and he sent me these thoughts bang on the final whistle after another big performance from Argentina's number 10. Well, yet another mental night covering Argentina. I thought that the 3-2 game against Cabo Verde was nuts, but this was just probably even more shocking really, more entertaining. I just didn't see Any way back for Argentina After Egypt had gone 2-0 up They were playing really well Argentina looked really Stretched at the back I thought they were very vulnerable On the counter And then Leo Messi does what Leo Messi does He set up a goal With a brilliant cross Lashed one in off the underside of the bar And just dragged this team to victory Again he's not going out with a whimper he's determined to end this World Cup career as a champion end his international career as double world champion so he dragged the team over the line like I said he was the inspiration he was running, he was pressing he was trying to create chances all in the last 20 minutes he dragged that team over the line again and he was deservedly one man of the match.

3:17Yet again, eight goals in the tournament now for him, 21 goals in his World Cup career, which is obviously a record and it's a remarkable record. Part of me feel really sorry for Egypt because their goalkeeper was fantastic and they were so good on the counter-attack. Mo Salah's been playing with one leg for most of this tournament. He's been injured, but he was fantastic on the break. Soto Zico, who scored the second goal, who was obviously named after, funnily enough, the Brazilian player who broke the Argentinian people's hearts in 1982. So that would have been a fitting way, well, for Brazilian fans anyway, for Messi's career to end in their eyes.

4:00But, you know, it was just such a brilliant comeback. And as journalists, we have to write something on the whistle. as you know Tom we've got to get a short report ready for the final whistle so I don't think I'm giving away any secrets here we start writing with sort of 10-15 minutes to go and I had written by the time the match had actually finished I'd written three different versions of a report because there were three different outcomes and and they were all they were all just completely different and it was such a that was how much of a crazy game it was it was changing from minute to minute but it was Messi who got the business done in the end and now they roll on to Kansas City where they will play either Switzerland or Colombia.

4:48If you're one of those teams and you were looking at how poor Argentina were in the first half defensively you'll have gained a lot of positives, a lot of areas where you think you can exploit Argentina but also if you look at the last 20 minutes you'll see how they can create things out of nothing and you'll see how much Messi is up for this and that would put the fear of God into any opponent. So, yeah, we'll see what happens. Maybe the next one will be a bit more straightforward, but another crazy night covering Argentina. Paul Hurst there with some really nice thoughts on the match and the joy of watching football at this tournament.

5:25But then, listeners, in a first for this World Cup from the Times team out on the ground, we've got a double voice note. We've got a follow-up from Paul. After he'd been to the press conferences, he sent me this follow-up with a few thoughts and a few latest revelations from what some certain managers had had to say. Hi Tom, just got out of the Egypt press conference. It's safe to say that the head coach, Hassam Hassan, is an unhappy... He was very, very animated in his press conference, very critical of FIFA, very critical of the referee today, the French referee. he said that he will not watch a single minute of the rest of the World Cup now as a means of protest because he said that his team had suffered an injustice, that there's no fairness in football he said that internal and external factors had influenced some of the referees' decisions which people can make their own minds up what that means, he's clearly hinting at some kind of conspiracy he was very unhappy that the third goal that Argentina scored was allowed to stand he felt that it was a foul that just before the counter-attack on one of his players and that caused absolute bedlam on the sidelines during the game one of the coaches got sent off one of the back room staff and I think the goalkeeper got sent off sorry booked as well they were very unhappy about that and they were also unhappy that one of their goals that they scored that would have put them 2-0 up in the second half, was disallowed for a foul that was way up the pitch before Egypt went on the counter.

7:06So those were key decisions that he felt went against his team and for that reason he's made this defeat even more bitter for him. So Egypt going home very unhappy. Right Gregor, you've got a choice. You've got a choice son. You drive the car. Paul's laid it out so this this next 10 minutes can be a chat about football and the joys it brings and Lionel Messi and what a fantastic marvellous miraculous footballer he is and underdogs and what a treat it is to see David and Goliath clashes or we can take on VAR and refereeing decisions and have a bit of a ding-dong you over to you son let's start with the horrible stuff

7:45Gregor Robertson: shall we let's start with VAR should we get it should we get out of the way should we get out what was it 17 seconds 17 seconds past what was the best part of i don't know 100 meters or something 17 seconds and one of the greatest world cup goals what a breakaway ever what a breakaway yeah what a goal um what a goal consigned to the bin consigned to the bin like and yes i am bringing that into it with my upset and yes that is clouding my judgment listeners maybe but i think it should be i think it should be clouding my judgment because that is what it's supposed to be about it's supposed to be about the joy it's supposed to be about that moment it's supposed to be about me being in my mother-in-law's house and jumping up and down and swearing at the tv and making my daughter burst into tears for the first time in this world cup that's what it's meant to be about that's what this game is meant to be about it's not meant to be about some people in a truck going i think he might have stood on his foot about 20 seconds earlier you might want to go and check that get in the bin get away get out so i'm so glad you've joined you you're on board the train now tom the abolition train i think i was always on board i think i think you've got to remember me i've got normally there's four of us around a table and i've just got to sit there as mr impartial and i asking my questions like that's the problem now now i'm now i'm unshackled i'm unshackled i mean i mean you know this might kind of be a a bit of a surprise to some listeners but when you look at it in slow motion i i i can see why it's a foul oh no don't listen to me i'm gonna leave you to do the rest of the podcast on your let me speak i can see it in slow motion why it's a foul and actually i was pulling my hair out watching this on tv and hearing ali mccoy's too ordinarily i love keep talking about the shirt pool and completely ignoring the fact that he stood on his foot he's studs scraped along his along his foot.

9:35Gregor Robertson: I can see it, but we weren't ever supposed to see it in that way. We're never supposed to see football in slow motion. Football's never supposed to be refereed in slow motion. So when you watched it in real time, you thought, there's a coming together, Martinez has fallen over, and there's a breakaway. And then what followed, as you said, was joyous and magnificent. Like, well, I can see the foul, I don't want it to be given as a foul. That obviously sounds a bit odd, but this is the weird world that VAR has brought us to. It's warped our perceptions to an extraordinary degree. And then actually, the claims by the Egyptian bench and Mohamed Salah and whatnot for the penalty and the build up to the winner were nonsense as well.

10:21Gregor Robertson: I mean, it's like, this is where we are now. People are claiming and losing their minds over nothing challenges. And that is what VAR has done. So it's a real shame that it's happened. I mean, I have enormous sympathy for Egypt. Enormous. They were brilliant. And the quality of the Dislaire goal and the other goal, the two breakaways, were absolutely brilliant. So I have enormous sympathy for them. and even more so just the way it happened because for that to be the way they go out is soul destroying. Absolutely. I mean, as you say, you can look at it and go, Marwan Atiyah, he stands on his foot and all this kind of stuff.

11:04But I've been doing a lot of, you know, rage social media posting in this tournament. Normally because I'm sat in my living room on my own at two o 'clock in the morning, I've got no one to talk to. So I'm just putting it out into the ether and I'm like, hang on a minute, this is how trolls are born. But anyway, we'll worry about that at the end of the tournament. But I've had a lot of people responding to me on social media going, don't you think it's clearly a foul? Oh, so you just want that to go? And I'm like, I do want that to go. I want that to go all the time. Like how many people's feet did you step on in your career when going for the ball?

11:35It's a contact sport. He's not tripped him up. He's just trying to like run next to him and he stood on his foot. The other thing I'd say about it is Martinez has gone down trying to win a free kick in an offensive position. he's trying to like win by a free kick isn't he like he's like I'm trying to win a free kick in an attacking sense the referees looked at it and gone nah that's not a free kick I'm not going to give you a free kick but then we will give a free kick to stop it how can there be two different types of two different types of the judgment that's the other problem it just it just stinks I just hate it so much and the other part of it I come from is I have loved this tournament I have loved so much about this tournament it has been absolutely magnificent in so many ways not in the way of Colombia against Switzerland as we're going to mention later but in so many ways it's been miraculous and the other thing about this game is it was a fantastic game of football and in the end you've got Lionel Messi dragging Argentina through again against a brilliant underdog side and we're all at the end of it the reflections then become and what about that foul and what about that foul that's what it's done it's killed the joy it's killed the enjoyment of it it just upsets me so much this is a great tournament being blighted by these moments I hate it

12:56Gregor Robertson: Well I mean the thing is the World Cup is such a concentrated event that this all becomes magnified but this happens on a weekly basis we talk about this on a weekly basis in the Premier League this is always going to be the way that football is with VAR because you're searching for a level of consistency or perfection it's completely unattainable and also the kind of slightly interesting thing about this conversation is obviously the bar for what a foul is and isn't in this tournament has been lowered that's been a clear directive by Colina the head of FIFA's referees so we've seen a lot of these sort of incidents happen and nothing's given and sometimes actually referees have taken that too far like France Paraguay so we're in this weird situation where FIFA and governing bodies are recognising that we don't want the game to be micromanaged but then they're unable to in these clutch moments not micromanage it and that's another sort of aspect to the ridiculous situation that football finds itself in now so yeah I agree with you but I felt this way for a long long time I mean there's also been in the aftermath Zico the striker said that the tournament was fixed there's been a lot of as Hurstey said there the agent manager was very very strong in his views but there's also a lot of people talking about this idea that probably and partly to what happened with FIFA and the US and Balogun that whole saga that somehow there's a conspiracy that this is being set up for Argentina because of Messi to go all the way.

14:51Gregor Robertson: It's nonsense. It's absolute nonsense. What you have here are some referees or officials, you know, VAR officials who are either not good enough or when you get to a situation that they have to make a really huge call on, their instinct is still to give it. It's like, it's impossible to be consistent. That's the problem. So I think people going down a warren hole of sort of conspiracy theories is nonsense. But there are a lot of people, you look around, journalists as well talking about this now. And I can see why you'd be swept up by it all, but it's nonsense. There's two questions actually from Times readers and listeners, Greg, that I just wanted to put to you on this topic that maybe helps take us out of me being very upset about VAR.

15:42We are going to talk about football in just a second, listeners, I promise. Thank you for staying with me through that therapy session. One interesting point from Nick, Nick Brooks-Gregor. Why does the VAR screen have to be placed between the dugouts? We've seen this a lot at the World Cup. He makes the point, you know, put a penalty box area around it. If a player steps inside it, it's a booking. I think that's an interesting point because, as I mentioned there, this kind of influence of the whole coaching staff, the whole bench, I mean it was happening in the Mexico England game like doing the sign for VAR and things like it is quite interesting isn't it maybe something for them to look at

16:17Gregor Robertson: I'm pretty sure that actually that has happened or if not all the time sometimes in the Premier League like I'm pretty sure that because it's a good idea yeah why would you not put it on the other side of the pitch so that there's less potential for influencing attempting to influence the referee you're still going to get fans and you still see fans in Premier League games every week kind of shouting stuff at the referee from behind the screen but that's a little bit less kind of influential perhaps and you're right yeah there should be like a cordoned off area there should be no way that anyone can play any part in that while the referee analyses the footage so it's a good idea I believe that does happen at times in the Premier League and it should be happening in the World Cup too Definitely and just one final question from Ulrich which I think I know the answer to this you think you're probably going to be a short agreement, but talking about pushing with hands and pulling with shirts, just make it an automatic foul for every single time it happens.

17:16Worrying, nice idea, but probably not going to be able to happen.

17:19Gregor Robertson: No, I mean, unfortunately, football is not that. Naturally, it's not unfortunately. That's the kind of glorious thing about football, is that it's almost, and again, VAR is illuminated, it's almost impossible to codify the laws of the game. There's so much of it is about feel and what is pushing the boundaries and what is crossing a threshold. And, you know, you always, as a defender, part of being a defender is trying to put off an attacker. And as you said, it's a contact sport. You've got your hands on them. If you have a grip of their shirt, then you're taking an enormous risk. But you may be able to do it for a fraction of a second and get away with it.

17:57Gregor Robertson: This is part of football and always has been. So if you tried to lock down on that completely, I wouldn't like to think about what would happen to the game. Probably getting even more VAR. But yeah, do keep your questions coming in to me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Let's talk football, Gregor. Let's talk about the joy of Lionel Messi. Paul has outlined it really nicely in his voice note. He's done so as well in his match report on the Times website. I think actually my favourite thing increasingly about Lionel Messi is how crappy he is at penalties. I think it's one of the greatest joys of any sport ever to see someone this good at something be so crap at one of the simplest things ever.

18:41I mean, I've watched some of your penalties, mate. You're better than Lionel Messi at penalties.

18:46Gregor Robertson: Probably a little bit less pressure on me than the Johnson's Payne Trophy or whatever, than Lionel Messi for Argentina with an entire nation on his shoulders at the World Cup. Listen, mate, I'd have backed you to stick it in top bins like you did for that time against Northampton. I've seen that penalty. It's an absolute banger. He doesn't look confident. You wonder whether he'll take the next one. He doesn't look confident. It's strange. It is a strange sensation to see him that way. And it was a bad penalty. It's very weird, isn't it? The goalkeeper had such a good game up until the point where the comeback started.

19:20Gregor Robertson: because he got a good hand on Romero's header and then he got a really good hand as well on Messi's and that was a short, you know, it was close range and it was through a thicket of bodies and whatnot but he had a great first half. They heard it from McAllister as well, the Alvarez shot, he got down low and pushed around the post. He was having a great game so, God, I felt for him as well. But Messi, you know, he manages to consign that to the dustbin, to the realms of history and drive his team forward. And he did do that. You have to see, you're watching him and you're drawing the parallels between him and Ronaldo and you think, this is why he's still making the difference.

20:03Gregor Robertson: He drops deeper and deeper the more they're in the mess to get on the ball more and try and link up and drive forward with it. And he put in the cross for Romero's, he was on the spot to score the equaliser and there were other moments as well where he was just, as I say, getting on it deep and trying to make things happen. And yeah, he's still got it. He has still got it, hasn't he? He's absolutely mad. I'd say as well, just the other Egypt player I feel slightly sorry for, Rami Rabia, the number five at centre-back. He was absolutely colossal and slightly similar to the goalkeeper as well. I thought he looked brilliant, composed.

20:40I was like, this guy is putting in the performance of a lifetime. And then it went 2-1. And they all started looking around, didn't they, and going, oh, I don't know. I don't know. It was just such a shame. I honestly, they've been fantastic Egypt, actually, in some parts. Imam Ashur, their number eight, has got one of the best celebrations of this tournament. I think back to the early stages, he's got the kind of swagger celebration. He comes strutting out and I'm pretty sure he scored their first goal and he did the swagger celebration and got shoved to the floor in very funny fashion. That was brilliant.

21:12And they were great in this game. I actually thought Mo Salah as well had a really good game for a guy playing basically on one leg. Genuinely quite impressive. I think Paul Hurst mentions that in his piece as well. And Hassan, yeah. Hassan was his run, so he's outstanding.

21:26Gregor Robertson: He was outstanding. For the guy who gave away the penalty and got caught really on that penalty, his runs were amazing. Anyway, don't get me started on that goal that never was because honestly, maybe I'll write a book about it, the goal that never was, just to make myself feel better. Me and Hasim Hassan, co-author, one of the great World Cup goals that will never be remembered. I'll remember it, definitely. Just finally on Argentina, we have talked so often about this kind of procession. That's maybe where some of the conspiracy theories come from to the final. But they've had two, three, two comeback games now in the knockouts against Cabo Verde and Egypt.

22:01Two teams that you'd have been looking at it going, ah, well, Messi's going to score six and they're going to stroll through. A, that'll take it out of them, won't it? But then conversely, it will probably give them the belief that they cannot be beaten. but then also they're going to face Switzerland in the next round Switzerland will be looking at them then they've got either Norway or England in the semi-finals those teams will be going you can get at this lot undoubtedly

22:22Gregor Robertson: undoubtedly yeah yeah I mean you counter that with also just the some kind of gnarly just richly experienced edge to them as well like you look around the team and there's a lot of people who who just have got vast experience and there's not that much difference to the team that won the World Cup I mean the one person is Di Maria that's missing and as you can tell they have no width and they don't even really have full backs who like to who are any good at attacking Molina and Tagliafico like they don't offer a great deal and they just pack the midfield area and yeah Messi Messi drifts and McAllister kind of tries to get in those little pockets of space like number 10 pockets and Alvarez kind of leads the line as well it depends which way they set it up to but they're just so concentrated in the middle of the pitch and yeah they're an odd team they're clearly flawed but there's also large periods of games where they kind of control it and they dictate the tempo and they kind of they make it a slow pedestrian game and then they have the moments where they come to life and invariably that's through Messi so there's obviously a force like a real energy behind them and you can see that inside every single stadium they've played and there's still this sense it's like it's almost like you know we're reliving history this team that's just set up you saw Messi being thrown in the air by all his teammates at the end like they're just trying to do it for him again and you never know Switzerland will be a tough opponent though Well let's talk about Switzerland it's interesting you characterise some of those Argentina players Emi Martinez Lissandro Martinez Sergio Gio Romero, Paredes in midfield, Enzo Fernandes.

24:12I think there's a lot of other fans listening to this podcast who might have different categorisation. Cheeky little monkeys would be what I'd go for, but there's probably some England fans in particular who have got some other categorisation for them. But yes, let's talk about Switzerland, but let's not talk about that game, shall we? Let's say very, very little about that game. I am so gutted, Gregor, actually, that that 120 minutes, well, maybe 110 minutes, bits of extra time were all right, but it was an absolute stinker I'd say it's my first dud I've had the pleasure of editing our World Cup newsletter full subscribers and every day I ask to pick my match I'm most excited about naturally being a bit of a contrarian I went for Colombia against Switzerland rather than Argentina and I may have been made to look a mug by this lot so I've not got anything major to say on the game I'm just going to go straight to the penalty shootout because I am fascinated by all these centre-backs who keep stepping up early in a penalty shootout not looking confident and blasting the ball over the bar.

25:10What is going on? But we've had Akanje and Sanchez in this, Davinson Sanchez, and Akanje, yes, Sanchez hit the bar, but Akanje miles over. We had Harry Suter for Australia put in a man-of-the-match performance. But even during that game, I was messaging James Geerbrandt and I said, this ends with Harry Suter blazing one over the bar. And he did it first penalty. First penalty up. Jonathan Tarr did it as well for Germany. I mean, what's going on? I've already referenced your exemplary penalty-taking record, but do you need to be a cultured left back to be able to be a penalty-taker?

25:42Gregor Robertson: No, I mean, look, the two today, they fell into this trap, this sort of trend for kind of stuttering. And if you're a big burly centre-half who probably is feeling a jangle of nerves even more than their teammates, keep a very difficult task as simple as possible. Don't look at the goalkeeper. don't kind of do that thing with people start straight on and then they arc their run around the ball and then they kind of stutter a bit and just don't just cut all that out and pick a side and hit it really hard there and I mean to be fair Davinson Sanchez I'm not I can't remember seeing a player who looked like he wanted to be there less than him as he stepped up to take that he looked traumatized and Akanji was almost burying his head in his hands as he struck the ball like there just seems so little confidence about either of those players so yeah it's been a I mean it's been a strange world cup in general for penalties really really terrible record across the board but they were some they were two really bad ones so it's an awful way to go out and what we what we should say is what a quarterfinal the Colombia Argentina would have been the colour and the noise and that exactly that's the other thing that's the other thing I've watched I've watched colombia this tournament and i've been so impressed i thought they were brilliant and i'd kept doing my times predictor and mapping it out and was like oh my god colombia argentina quarterfinal at 2 a.m that could be a banger and listen no offense to switzerland it's just not as sexy it's just not as exciting um when camp has went through camp has went through just before the end of extra time he had that chance and he blazed over the bar had the better chances but it was almost maybe a sign of the game that he got through in that mad one-on-one with a defensive a mistake and he was like hang on yeah what yeah he just completely cocked it up yeah a real shame to see colombia go out like that i've watched them and enjoyed them watching them a lot but as you say it does complete the quarter finals they are starting on thursday uh let's just run through them uh obviously we have got france against morocco up first nine o 'clock and then we've got spain belgium 8 p.m on friday norway england on saturday at 10 p.m and then argentina Switzerland at 2am absolutely thrilling cannot wait for those games if listeners you've got any thoughts, prayers suggestions on what on earth I can do with my evening today because there's no football there's no football for me to watch sleep me no I can't do it I can't give up now nearly there You're at a kilter, your systems.

28:21Gregor Robertson: It'll feel weird for you, won't it? Systems out of whack. See the daylight. You've still got that 2am game. That Argentina-Switzerland one could finish at 5am. You can't quit on it. I can't quit on it now. But if you have got any suggestions, or even if you've got thoughts on VAR, Lionel Messi, or anything you've seen so far, do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Gregor, thank you very much for joining me. You will be back tomorrow with Tom Allnott for the big quarterfinal preview show. But listeners, stick with us today, because after the break, I'm going to be chatting to Martin Samuel about England, the Azteca, and Erling Haaland.

28:53See you after this.

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30:21Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined for part two by the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel. Martin, great to have you with us. Let's go back a couple of days to the Azteca. What a special night, what a special game. your brilliant piece from the ground called it England's greatest night since 66 in the World Cup what what made it so special for you what what made it such an incredible night the conditions and the event itself more more than the opponents we've played better teams than Mexico and you can take a very sort of dispassionate view and go well it's Fulham centre forward and it's a guy that couldn't get in West Ham's team by the end of it but it's more than that when you go to the Azteca I'd never been to the Azteca I called it I think the world's greatest football stadium it certainly is the greatest one that I've been in and I've been in a few if England had beaten Mexico in a knockout game in Germany or Russia or virtually anywhere you'd have gone yeah it's it's a good result yeah it's a solid result but it's mexico you know we expect to beat mexico but mexico in the azteca is a totally different thing they had never lost a world cup game there they've hosted two world cups have never got beat at the azteca in either of them they were eliminated in other parts of mexico they were not beaten at the azteca i think that's a far more a far greater indication of their strength there really even this i think two defeats in 89 matches because you've got to look at the quality of the opposition for a lot of those but we've never won a game in which we've gone down to 10 men ever in the history of uh english football never won a world cup game in which we've gone down to 10 men so there were all of these milestones and you put that all together all things considered since 66 i can't think of us getting a better world cup result you know away from home i think i think um that's a good point with uh you know thinking about the show we did afterwards you could just hear in matt lawton's little snippet you know the the sounds in the background i think that communicated it brilliantly and we've had a we had a question from a listener martin simon makes a good point about dan burn and some of the decisions thomas tuchel makes after uh sorry during this game he talks about this these moments you know 10 men down backs to the wall 7 000 feet up you know reflecting on it is tuchel really the messiah or was he actually just a bit lucky?

33:03Like, is this a case of maybe Gregor Robertson? Both things can be true. Both things can be true. No, I don't think he was lucky. I'm not saying he was lucky. What I would say is that I didn't see, you know, some people go, oh, it's a tactical masterclass or a technical masterclass. And I'm thinking, now I've seen tactical and technical masterclasses. You know, England 4, Holland 1 was a tactical and technical masterclass. this was an absolute triumph of spirit and character and you know good substitutions but they were it was back to the wall stuff and say like Dan Byrne I mean Dan Byrne did great when he came on but I think I think there's several center halves you could put in that position I don't think he did great because he was Dan Byrne I think he did great because Mexico completely run out of ideas and were just sticking balls into the box and that's bread and bread for Dan Byrne, as it would be for Harry Maguire, as it would be for a lot of English centre-halves.

34:06So I'm not looking at this and going, oh, this means that Dan Byrne, this doesn't mean that he could handle Lionel Messi if we end up playing Lionel Messi in a couple of games' time. I don't think it necessarily... I think in the end, Mexico totally run out of ideas and that's on us, that's on us, that's on Thomas Tuchel, that's on all of the players. Mexico completely run out. I've never felt, in that match, the most secure I thought we were and the most secure I felt about us and our chances was the last 20 minutes, including the 11 minutes of additional time. I looked at that, about 10 minutes to go, and I'm thinking, we've got this, we've got this.

34:52They don't know what to do anymore. They don't know how to get at us anymore. we're set up, we know exactly what we're doing I was told the other day about a Dan Byrne quote about playing Manchester United and him saying that they were just lobbing balls into the box, he said well you know, I knew all about that, I knew what to do with that when I was at Darlington and that was what it was like at the end, you know, you're just like okay, Jordan Pickford comes off his line and takes, Dan Byrne heads it out all the boys head it out it turned into this very very English game and and Mexico weren't greatly sophisticated about the way they tried to get us in the last 20 minutes and that suited us down to the ground definitely the right decision from Thomas Tuchel with those tactical changes definitely vindicated in the way Mexico played you mentioned spirit there Martin Declan another listener is talking about England's potential route to the final now and we're going to talk about Norway in a second Norway next and as you mentioned there the potential of a semi-final with Argentina how important was it for you to see that level of spirit in this display we've talked about Jude Bellingham we've talked about Harry Kane and you and others have quite rightly said look you've got a shot with those two in the team but this game showed throughout the squad that there's a real unity there that could go a long way in potentially reaching the final spirit is very very important and, you know, spirit is very, very important in a team, a dis-united team, really, really does well.

36:26And as the game wore on, the players will know they were in. The players will know what they were in. The players, they will know that they were in a special match and the players will feel a bond between them, that they came through that. And one of the things that I mentioned is that, you know, the young men now, when they're old, they'll greet each other like long lost brothers really whenever they meet because they're all on the field at the same time in the way that England's Rugby World Cup winning team you know you'll never lose that you'll never lose the fact that you guys did achieve something really really special together when you see old players get together and when you see how they greet each other you know ones that have been in these particular matches these special matches it creates a bond for life and it will certainly create a bond at this World Cup.

37:21Now, how much of a bond, you know, let's be honest, you know, everyone thinks they've got a bond, you know, everyone thinks they've got a bond. Every team here will think we are together. But the fact is, you know, eight teams will not cross the finishing line together. You know, so one team will. So, bear in mind that everyone will think they've got a bond. It will get us so far. It can't get you all the way over the line. Sooner or later, you've got to find a way of stopping Lionel Messi, being Lionel Messi. You've got to find a way of stopping Kylian Mbappe and that French forward line. You've got to find a way of stopping Erling Haaland.

38:05And Gabriel would have thought that he knew a way to stop Erling Haaland and he was dissuaded of that the other night. So it can get you so far. It can get you so far. I do think that spirit alone, character alone, doesn't get you over the line. And, you know, I don't think Thomas Tuchel, Thomas Tuchel bangs on about character and chemistry and all of that. But he will know that that alone, you know, if it was about wanting it, Neil Warnock would be a Premier League winning manager. If it was just about wanting it and everything, anyone could win the league. But the fact is that there is something called class, technical class, and you put that with spirit and then that's the world champions.

39:00Yeah, absolutely. We'll finish up with your question on the Norway game in just a second. but I just wanted to bring in the FIFA controversy around Fola and Balogun's red card. I was chatting with James Geerbrandt and Peter Rutzler about this on yesterday's show after Belgium's big win against USA. Just wanted to get your reflections. You wrote a great piece on the night of the decision, which was, of course, the same night as England's win against Mexico. Reflecting on it now, I put this question to James and we discussed this idea that actually it's a little bit like the Spygate scenario where you always talk about football winning.

39:36Well, actually, football's done them a favour as well here because Belgium have used it and gone out and thumped USA, basically, and USA have looked completely lost and confused by the whole situation. And actually, does this situation go away now because of the Belgian win, or is it a precedent that will hang over FIFA and the World Cup for a long time? Oh, God, I think it hangs over FIFA, yeah. You know, look, it feels for the first time today as if, and I'm writing the column about it at the moment, it feels for the first time today as if there is a sort of beginning of the end of Infantino's sort of greed is good mantra.

40:21There's a pushback that there hasn't been before. Now, whether it gets anywhere, I don't know because the one thing I do know about all the federations, including ours, is that they like money. And the one true thing that Trump did say in that long rambling address of discussion, stream of consciousness, God knows how you describe it, was that this World Cup has generated a vast amount of money. Well, that much is true. In commercial terms, it's going to be a hugely successful World Cup. And that trickles down to the associations and the associations like money. So it's very hard to remove Infantino.

41:03People say, what about investigative journalism? Why don't you lot do more? Well, everyone did more. And if investigative journalism helped, the World Cup wouldn't have been in Qatar. And there's nothing to investigate here, by the way, because Trump says he made the phone call. So you can't go, oh, we have the smoking gun. Trump made a phone call. Yeah, he said it. He said it in a press conference. Went on forever. Like all of the other stuff. So it's one of those things. But for the first time, when you get, Jürgen Klopp comes out and talks and your wafer talking and you think, right, so what are you going to do about that?

41:37What are you going to do about all of this? Because this has been happening. There's been a mission creep. There's been a mission creep with FIFA because we've, it's wrong and it's not, and we all rant and rave and everything. But then you sort of, everyone, you know, gets worn down by it. So the fans get fleeced and commercial considerations trump everything. The World Cup is expanding and expanding and expanding and the welfare issue with the players gets greater and greater. And all of these things. And people take a deep breath and go, oh, yeah, it's FIFA. But then the matches come around and the whistle blows and everyone goes, but this is good.

42:16This is good. This is 90 minutes and this is all straight. We can forget about all the rest of it. You know, fans playing through the nose and all of this and how hard they make it for everyone, the travel and all that. because this 90 minutes is straight and we believe in it. And the worst thing that can happen in the 90 minutes is you get a bad refereeing decision, but then people tend to think it's a bad refereeing decision. It's not corruption. It's not a global conspiracy. It's a bad refereeing decision. But this, in the last year, things have been happening that strike at the actual game itself, the 90 minutes.

42:53Rewind back the Ronaldo decision. which is the Balogun decision, but just in different clothing, where it became suspended. Because the other thing is, they didn't overturn the red card. They haven't said, they haven't turned around and said, oh, this was a terrible mistake, we've got to get rid of this. Because they kept the red card. They say the red card was right. They've changed the punishment. They haven't actually found him. I almost find that worse in a way. I almost find that worse in a way. Absolutely. Absolutely. But then before that is the Lionel Messi into the Club World Cup decision, which a lot of people ignored at the time because they were so busy rubbishing the Club World Cup and go, oh, this is a rubbish tournament.

43:32This is a nonsense tournament that when that happened, oh, this is just more nonsense. But it wasn't. It was massively significant. The Club World Cup is not a rubbish tournament. The Club World Cup is going to be a very big tournament. It will grow in size. You know, when I'm long retired, it will be massive. It will be massive. Believe me. And what they did there completely corrupted it. They gave a place to a club that hadn't qualified. They hadn't won their own league yet. You know, nobody wins. There's not a league that exists in America that doesn't have a playoff at the end of it. And at the end of the playoffs, you discover who the champions are, not who wins the regular season.

44:14The regular season, it just decides who's in the playoffs. and Infantino ran onto the pitch in Miami and went, they've qualified because they'd won the regular season. And everyone went, oh, that's more nonsense, it's more club world game, it doesn't matter. It does matter. That was a really big tournament for FIFA. After this, they want that to become the second biggest tournament for them after this one. And they were prepared to screw with it. And that was really significant. And so there's been this mission creep in the last year that's moved from just interfering in the periphery, the ticket prices, to actually impacting the tournament, the games, the fixtures.

45:02And that's very, very worrying. And people are now, with the Balogun decision, waking up to it. Really interesting. Both Robert and Emma had been in touch with questions around FIFA and the future of the organisation and the beautiful games. so I think you've touched on both of those themes nicely there Martin. Philip, a listener, has come up with the ultimate question really heading into the quarterfinals with Norway. How do England conquer Erling Haaland? It's the question everyone is asking. You've watched Norway twice at this tournament already. You've written a brilliant piece about Haaland and his performances.

45:34How do you reflect on this game? Because so much will be made about Erling Haaland. Norway are a very good team though. They are a real collective team as your fellow columnist Alison Rudd has written in the Times pages. And she's going to never let us forget it, by the way. She'll never let us forget this one. It's a bit worrying, isn't it? Got to hand it to her though, Martin. It's a big call. I actually think, do you know what? If they end up bloody winning it, fair play. That's a big shout. If they end up winning it, fair play. But it's a long way to go for that. But yeah, Erling Haaland, the Harry Kane, Jude Bellingham's in there as well, Martin Erdegaard.

46:09How do you see it going down? The thing with Erling Haaland is that it doesn't matter whether he touches the ball or not, as long as he touches it once or maybe twice if he's scored. That's the interesting thing because you can never really ever feel safe. You can never feel we've got this. You know, sometimes you can look at a game and you can think, this striker's never going to score in a million years. They've absolutely got his number. They've absolutely got his number. But it doesn't matter with Erling Haaland because you can be sitting there thinking, this guy hasn't touched the ball. He doesn't care.

46:45He doesn't care. It doesn't matter. That's not the plan. The plan is not, you know, I will get the most touches. The plan is, when I do get a touch, you're in trouble. and that's why it's such a precarious fixture because you can think you're doing so well. You can think you've absolutely got it and then he scores and then he gets that one chance and then he's got that one movement and so that's where you worry for England because defensively we're not the strongest here. There's no doubt about that. I mean, it would have been fascinating to see France's defence against him in Boston. I went up to Boston to see that match and Mbappe played, but Haaland didn't.

47:34And actually, it was Haaland against France's defence that you really wanted to see whether he could cause them trouble because that's obviously France's weakness as well. It's certainly not their forwards. So, yeah, that is the danger. And if you're Tuchel, you'll be trying to kill his supply line. You'll be trying to kill the supply line between Odegaard and him. Odegaard, I think, is having a really good World Cup. I think he's another one of those guys that has been the best version of themselves at this tournament. It's a point that was made, talked about it on here before, maybe about France, that they're all the best version of themselves.

48:16Those forwards, they're playing better. Well, I think that's that of Odegaard. This is a player that we've been looking for. We were looking for Arsenal all of last season when they had such a good team. And you're thinking, oh, when they get Odegaard back. And then Odegaard came back. And actually, it didn't make the difference that you thought it was going to make. It didn't sort of just take them away from everybody. Whereas here, I think he's been exceptional. And so that supply line is very important in cutting that out and writing. and Anderson will be huge for England in Miami. And it will also be, this is our first heat test because we've got extraordinary, I don't know if people know this at home, but we've got extraordinary lucky so far.

49:02I think there is not a single game that we have played in this tournament that wouldn't have been hotter if we'd have played it at Wembley. Every single one of our games, it would have been hotter at Wembley than it has been out here. but Miami having been there last year I was based there for a couple of weeks in the Club World Cup even when it's raining you know the humidity doesn't end there or whatever it will feel like you're in a warm shower Really interesting Haaland in the heat I can't wait it's going to be so exciting we've got a couple more days of build up and preparation to come we'll leave it there Martin Samuel thank you very much for joining me on today's World Cup daily episode of the game podcast we'll be reading more from you on the Times pages in the coming days.

49:47Thank you too to Paul Hurst and the Times team for joining me earlier in the show. We will be back tomorrow to preview all of the quarterfinals. We will see you then.

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