WORLD CUP DAY 28: Quarter Final Previews

0:00Gregor Robertson: This week on The Business Podcast, George Arison, Chief Executive of the dating app Grindr.

0:06Tom Allnutt: Our belief is that age verification should be done at the app store.

0:10Gregor Robertson: UK politicians have gone the other way. Do you think that's a mistake?

0:13Tom Allnutt: It's a tremendous mistake and I think it's a massive disservice to citizens of this country.

0:17Gregor Robertson: Join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business.

0:37Tom Allnutt: Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 28 of our daily World Cup shows and it is quarterfinal time. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined today by the football reporter Tom Allnut and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson and on today's show we'll be running through all four games and offering our usual top-notch analysis and predictions. Team, welcome. Here we are. We've made it through the worst day of the World Cup so far without a game. Now we're back. Thank God the football begins again. And Tom, hello. Welcome back. You're in your home.

1:12Tom Allnutt: You're back home from the World Cup. How are you feeling? Sad, depressed, dreaming of Curacao? Yeah, I mean, you know, it took a few days to get over the jet lag. I, you know, got the kind of traditional flu as soon as I got back. body sort of said that neither day off as well um but yeah still dreaming of curacao it's true it takes a while to kind of i mean it was it was a fantastic trip and i think you know an amazing well i think it's been a brilliant world cup i'd say you know like it's it's ticked so many boxes but i think you know by the time i'd had sort of six barbecue dinners in houston out of about seven or eight days i think my body was kind of saying it's time to go find some salad you know and that's nothing against the barbecue scene in texas by the way you know lovely brisket fantastic fries cheese with everything it's good stuff but after a while you need to uh to to find something a little bit more uh nourishing yeah but it was a good trip it was a i think it's been a great tournament great world cup lacking salad is probably the best analysis i've heard so far best moment favorite game best moment thing that you'll remember always um i mean i think i covered the things i covered i mean excuse me i'm still recovering my voice I mean, I think, you know, it's been said in the last few days because of the England game in Mexico.

2:25Tom Allnutt: But I really felt the games I did in Mexico were, you know, I did the opening game, for example, at the Azteca. And just the atmosphere there, you know, walking, you know, our bus, our shuttle bus from our hotel in Mexico City to the Azteca very much failed because the traffic was so bad. And they had to drop us off about 20 minutes from the stadium, which we thought was sort of maybe just kind of teething problems on the first day of the World Cup. But I think that has generally been the routine in Mexico City. and you sort of get off the bus and you're kind of walking down what is just sort of a kind of winding lane really you know towards the azteca and you can you can kind of see the stadium in the in the distance in the skyline and just sort of you know alongside this this street just sort of all these kind of pop up i don't know really they're not restaurants they're just kind of shacks you know people just kind of cooking things on the grill and that kind of smell of of tacos and and and meat and pork and and then people just kind of sitting on the side of the streets or drinking beers and you just think like this is you know this is the world cup right like you're walking towards you know one of the most kind of historic stadiums and it's a really wonderful atmosphere and and i think that has you know mexico is you know they're finished now as a team and you know i think they it was a really special place to be and i have to say that you know in terms of the us like i think it was a real variety you know i think i think that's been the experience of a lot of reporters and you know obviously i didn't get around every single city but it seems like there have been three or four really sort of buzzy magical places to be i don't I know Boston, for example, I went to Seattle, which was a really vibey place with really nice people and people out on the streets.

3:53Tom Allnutt: And you could really feel the welcome atmosphere. Maybe in other places, slightly quieter. And that's what America's like. It's not one country. It's a country made up of lots and lots of very different places. And I think in terms of the variety and the mix, it was a really fascinating place to be. Joyous stuff. A lovely start to this quarterfinals preview. Now, Gregor, I've got exciting news for you. the most joy you have on this podcast is whenever I ask you for a prediction the next most joy is when we review those predictions and we see how wrong we truly were me, you and Tony Cascarino did our map to the final and I'm excited to remind all listeners of what we predicted would be the quarterfinals started strong, France v Morocco that's one out of one however, we then said it would be Spain v Senegal listen, I think we're a late goal away from that being true I think Senegal would have beaten USA here's the big overestimation England v Japan Japan what happened lads what happened

4:54Gregor Robertson: they were close as well

4:55Tom Allnutt: against Brazil no no absolutely bottled against Brazil still angry about it still angry about it and then Argentina Colombia in many ways this should have been the quarterfinals I wish I'll let it go imagine the sight

5:08Gregor Robertson: and sound of that it would have been incredible

5:10Tom Allnutt: never mind we have still got four very exciting quarterfinals any surprises as though generally i was reflecting uh after recording the show gregor completing the round of 16 you know we've got six out of eight european teams for a quarterfinals of a tournament that many people said oh the european teams won't be able to hack it conditions wise quite interesting or actually maybe just a sign of the strength of european football right now tom gregor

5:35Gregor Robertson: what do you think about that idea i mean like look when you came out of the the group phase i I think nine out of 10 African countries qualified for the round of 32 and that was the conversation. Then now we're just left with Morocco. So I think each individual case is very different. And there are also some of these nations who've had very mixed tournaments. I mean, you think of Belgium. Belgium were deeply average for a large spell of it, nearly went out against Senegal. And then they were outstanding against the US. And now you're suddenly looking at them thinking, and this is going to be a tough proposition for Spain.

6:12Gregor Robertson: Even Spain have started with that draw against Cape Verde, still being pretty unimpressive in some games. I'm not sure they're anywhere near the same level as they were four years ago, but you still feel there's potential there. And like Norway, where the team everyone was tipping is a dark horse and it turned out to be even more than that. They look like potential winners at this rate. So I think each individual sort of case is unique, But there's no doubt that the strength of European football has come to the fore at the end. Tom?

6:45Tom Allnutt: I wonder if, for example, European club football is obviously so strong now. You do wonder if, for example, like Brazil, I think there's going to be a real sort of identity crisis now about Brazilian football, because Ancelotti obviously being a point at the top, but it kind of runs all the way through this kind of battle almost for the kind of soul of brazilian football you know what are we you know and then that is very much the kind of debate i think in brazil now you know they're hiring lots of portuguese coaches you know in in in brazilian domestic football a lot of the academies are sort of trying to produce players almost that are kind of retrofitted to kind of fit european clubs because that's the way they sell players and that's you know they know they're basically trying to sell to the kind of european super club market and you just kind of wonder will these countries actually sort of think is this the way to do it like do we want to sort of play like european clubs do we want to set up like european clubs is that the only way you can win these tournaments or do we actually kind of go back i mean i saw a funny tweet i don't know that was kind of saying that you know brazil needs to go back to kind of you know being the drunkard you know partying we've lost our roots lads kind of thing you know um and again that's taking a bit too far probably but you know I think that there is maybe a sense that a lot of these countries are so sort of through the lens of European football domestically you know you wonder if if they're sort of starting to lose something but I do I you know I tend to agree with Gregor I mean I think for example the African team's just quite tough draws to be honest you know and I think I think that is part of it as well let's get into the games then France v Morocco and let's start with the only remaining African nation Morocco delighted I've got to say for them to have reached this point a World Cup quarterfinal because so much is made of them at previous tournament and now at this one are they the dark horses could they be the african team that goes a long way this is a hugely exciting game isn't it um so let's start with them so much has been discussed around france i'm not sure we've got anything left to say about them i'm sure we'll give it a go in a second but tom what we liked about this morocco side because there's been lots of players to pick out i've really enjoyed neil Al-Ai Unawi in midfield next to Buwadi.

8:55Tom Allnutt: I think both of those players are really terrific midfielders. You know, you had Unawi getting goals against Canada, even off the bench, you know, they lose Saibari to injury. Rahimi comes off the bench and looks really good. Like this is a really strong squad of players, isn't it? It's not just Ashraf Hakimi and Brahim Diaz. Like it's a proper, proper squad of really high-end players. Yeah, and I like the way Morocco play. I was in Mexico for the last 16 or last 32 game against Netherlands. And Netherlands were sort of trying to be solid and slightly pragmatic in that kind of Koeman way. But Morocco, I think, they've got an athletic team.

9:33Tom Allnutt: They're athletic, but they also kind of like to attack quickly. I think they can cause teams problems. It's almost a shame I think they're playing against France because I sort of think France play a bit like Morocco, but better. you know, and their style might not be the one to kind of bring down France. I wonder if Morocco were playing, for example, against Spain or someone like that, or even England, they might have a better kind of opportunity to cause an upset. I think you've, I mean, you've nailed it there, Tom, really. I mean, I think the midfielders, you know, Bouadi and El Ainaoui have been, you know, fantastic.

10:04Tom Allnutt: And me and Greg were just kind of saying before we came online that, you know, it's, you know, El Ainaoui was brilliant four years ago as well. And you're sort of surprised that he hasn't kind of, you know, been picked up. and maybe 20 years ago he would have been in a World Cup just sort of taken on by Liverpool or something. But I also like the full-backs. I think Hakimi and Masraoui really sort of... They give so much energy and tireless running. Hakimi clearly with his quality on the ball and his delivery is the best right-back in the world. Whereas Masraoui, the other side, sort of just brings a kind of bite and tirelessness.

10:36Tom Allnutt: And I think they're a dangerous team. I really think they are. And there's obviously a lot of intrigue with this match with France because of the history between the teams, you know, and there are so many kind of shared connections between the sides. You know, I mean, Boadi, for example, I think really in France, they feel like he was kind of one of the ones who got away, you know, that they were sort of surprised almost. You know, they've sort of been used to kind of cherry picking the ones they really want France and maybe some, you know, Moroccan players who play for France, play for Morocco, were born in France, you know, tends to be the ones who thought they couldn't get in the French team.

11:06Tom Allnutt: Boadi, I think, is, you know, not necessarily one of those. and there are you know diop for example i think was in the i think it was the under 19 euros winning team of sort of you know 10 years ago or something with france so he sort of knows a lot of the french players very well so it's going to feel a little bit like uh i don't know for derby but a kind of like a mates game you know like a lot of them are in kind of shared whatsapp groups and i think that brings an extra edge to this match you know it's like uh there's a real sense of you know almost the french kind of b team playing against the a team you know and i think they'll really want to kind of go and prove a point so so yeah I really like this game I don't know if it's the one I would circle for an upset but I hope so to be honest because I really like Morocco Gregor Tom picking out lots of good points there interesting you mentioned Ashraf Hakimi I saw a stat that his 15 chances created in the current tournament are already the most by an African defender in any edition of the competition clearly a hugely important part as well Masraou you're picking out there another great example of a Premier League player I'm watching thinking Man United are sorted for next season.

12:05Tom Allnutt: This guy's absolutely liquid gold. He's amazing. If Masraoui can produce those performances for Manchester United, their defence will be in a good shape for next season. Greg, thoughts on Morocco? Tom making the point that any team going up against France would be tricky, but actually they might be two well-matched teams in lots of respects.

12:24Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I think I said the other week that I've been, I don't know. I think Morocco, because of how impressive he started in the game against Brazil, I've been slightly disappointed. I don't think they've quite lived up to that level again. When you think about, you know, they squeezed past Scotland, the game against Haiti was a bit of a basketball match. The Netherlands was a physical duel and, you know, came through on penalties. And the Canada game was never a 3-0 game. I think they had five shots and scored three goals. So I think there's more in them. And, like, I hope that we see more against France.

13:00Gregor Robertson: and it might be that a game that's more open could suit them as well. I think the midfield battle will be fascinating in this game because France came into the tournament thinking that was almost their weak point. Rabiot and Kony are two of many. Two of many is injured, I think, so it's probably going to be Kony. Rabiot has been brilliant, actually. Kony has been pretty impressive too, but they've not faced any midfield like Morocco's in terms of both the physicality and the sort of crafting guile. Like, Buade is a physical specimen for, like, an 18-year-old. It's incredible. The ground he covers, how he can just shrug people off the ball.

13:37Gregor Robertson: He's a monster. Eli now is a box-to-box player as well. And Unai has got the kind of, the real craft and the moments of, in those tight spaces, he can create something. So, like, France will need to be on their A game in the centre of the pitch, I think. France have all that too they do obviously they've got Alisi in the number 10 and as I said Rabiot and Kony have played really well so I think that's going to be an important area of the pitch and it'll also be interesting to see how you mentioned Hakimi to see how France deal with that, I would say that Dignes although he's had a good tournament again is an area where an opponent can get at France, he's not He's not a stellar defender.

14:27Gregor Robertson: And coming up against Hakeemou, who is a buccaneering player, he's not like a normal right-back. He can drift into the number 10 areas or he can be up and down the line as well. I think that's a possible area for Morocco to get at France. So it's got the makings of a great game, like the rerun of the 2022 semifinal. as Tom mentioned a lot of kind of shared history and sort of you know other history between the nations as well I think it's going to be a cracker but I would be really amazed if France don't come through

15:05Tom Allnutt: Yeah I mean that is probably the prevailing thought here Tom I'm pretty sure from memory I haven't given you the chance to wax lyrical about France so I'm going to do that now I mean this is a special team isn't it that Morocco are going up against yeah it is i mean it's it feels to me like the winner of what will probably be the france spain semi-final is probably going to win the tournament i don't know i mean i don't know so you know it feels to me like that is you know i think those are the two i'm spain in a slightly different way just very kind of controlled and they will talk about them later but i think france just have that you know they have that explosiveness right like and in the final third you compare them the other teams they just have you know four match winners basically four players who you know can put a rabbit out of the hat at any moment, you know.

15:49Tom Allnutt: And I think it's interesting that kind of more broadly there's a tactical trend of this World Cup, you know, after watching a Premier League season where so much has been, you know, slightly turgid, slightly sort of robotics, you know, set-piece football, it's been a real sort of breath of fresh air to see so much kind of up and down football, you know, based on kind of 1v1s, dribblers. And France have all of that in spades, right? That is, you know, they are kind of either setting the agenda or they're very much tapping into it. because they have the best 1v1 attackers, you know, in the world.

16:20Tom Allnutt: Basically, you'd probably say the top four out of the five, you know, basically playing for France. So, yeah, I mean, I think if anyone beats France, I suspect they're going to win the tournament, right? I mean, that's sort of my feeling. Unless they use up all that might to beat them in this quarterfinal and then can't go any further, as we often see sometimes. Let's have a prediction then. You struggle to get past France and look past France. I mean, I'm slightly tempted to go for Morocco, given your assessment, Tom, but I think I'll have to go with France. What do we reckon, Gregor?

16:50Gregor Robertson: Yeah, it should be France. If France perform anywhere near as they can, they've been the best team by a mile. So it's impossible to predict anything else but football is a funny old game you never know. This is. Tom?

17:01Tom Allnutt: I think I would pick Morocco to be an upset in this round if they weren't playing France. I'm going France as well, yeah. I would pick Morocco if they weren't playing France because therefore they wouldn't be the underdog. so I'll pick them but it just doesn't quite work

17:17Gregor Robertson: we're just tying ourselves in knots to avoid seeing France move on

17:23Tom Allnutt: that's like I want to be Alison Rudd and as bold as Alison Rudd but I can't quite bring myself to say something as mad and things as she sometimes says anyway we'll come on to Norway in just a second France then is the prediction for that quarterfinal they would face the winners of Spain v Belgium Belgium I've been endlessly fascinated by this team I can't quite work it out Tom, your thoughts on Spain then Greg alluded to it before maybe not quite delivered to the same heights as they managed in Euro 2024 and I think that's probably fair but still very impressive I mean they've kept a clean sheet in each of their last six FIFA World Cup games the longest run by any side in the competition's history at this year's tournament they are averaging expected goals against per game of just 0.3 the lowest on record by any team in any edition of the finals however belgium are averaging 21.4 shots per game at this year's tournament only averaging more in 1970 and their shot conversion rate this tournament of 12.1 percent is also the highest on record behind 2018 so belgium are scoring for fun and spain have got the best best defense could be a cracker could go penalties who knows yeah i mean spain have been a funny team i think so far they've really have they gone under the radar i think i mean i feel like they have i mean they haven't you know they haven't sort of put together a sort of brilliant swashbuckling performance yet um but equally i think you know it's funny this is sort of the advantage i think of when you have won stuff like everything that kind of happens serves as sort of confirmation bias in terms of optimism whereas you compare it to for example england like everything is like oh you know we're not playing well this feels like you know this previous world cup or Or, you know, we know if we're not doing this, it's going to happen again.

19:08Tom Allnutt: Whereas for Spain, it's like, oh, Mikel Moreno scored again in the last minute. That's what happened in the Euros two years ago. So, you know, we're clearly on the right track. Or it's like, you know, we're not conceding goals. We've got brilliant defence. Yeah, very much like 2010 when we won the World Cup. You know, you have all these kind of reference points, which makes everyone feel good about everything because you just sort of feel like you have a winning history. And Spain have that confidence at the moment. They're not playing brilliantly. but I think you know you read everything that's sort of in the Spanish press you hear what those players are talking about everything kind of feels like they think it's going to plan you know and I think if you think about their sort of midfield you know Pedri and Rodri I still come back to the point that I think if France's you know main trump card is to have attackers game changers who can you know beat players and score goals in at any moment I still think Spain's major trump card in a tournament where, you know, the heat could be more of a factor as it goes on and fatigue, is that they can just suffocate teams in possession, you know.

20:05Tom Allnutt: And I think, you know, you look at that game against Portugal, it wasn't at all a particularly interesting match, but I never felt like Spain were really out of sync, you know. They can control games from that midfield base. And listen, you know, I guess, you know, we're going to see because I think Belgium in a way is maybe the first sort of test. I don't think Belgium are sort of a real top team. I have to say at the World Cup, I haven't really been massively impressed by them generally. I think in a way the US, you know, in LA might have been even a slightly tougher game for Spain in a weird way.

20:36Tom Allnutt: But I still think, you know, Spain quietly looked to me like a really impressive team, you know. And Lamin was still, I think, is gathering momentum as the tournament goes on. But mainly they just look at a team who are confident and in control, you know. And I think, I still think that them against France is going to be the probably decisive match of the tournament in the semi-final. Tom makes a good point there about experience, Gregor, and that reassurance that fans and Spain players can have. That does count for a lot, doesn't it? In some ways, just saying at a quarter-final stage, oh, well, they've underwhelmed, can be a good thing?

21:09Gregor Robertson: Yeah, perhaps. Look, I think Spain have played well once against Austria. 3-0, completely, completely dominant. That was a brilliant performance. Like, completely suffocated them. Obviously, they started with the nil-nil draw against Cape Verde. Then they thrashed Saudi Arabia 4-0, but it was Saudi Arabia. The Uruguay game was a battle, and they edged it. And the Portugal game was... Again, they just edged it. Someone came on and scored. Marino came on and scored the winner late on. There wasn't much between the teams. So I don't think Spain are... Lamal is obviously the unknown. If he really, really is on song, then he could win them the tournament single-handedly, just about, I still think he's although Alise is kind of challenging him just now, I think he's the best player on the planet so yeah and also the kind of stats he gave at the start there, again you've got the context of the teams they're playing against and like Belgium, when you think about they thrashed New Zealand 5-1, it was one of those games, New Zealand was one of the lowest ranked teams in the competition, before that they drew 0-0 with Iran, before that they drew 1-0 with Egypt, like they started really poorly and the Senegal game, they they were almost out and one of the they got a really kind of questionable decision to get a penalty at the end as well so but the USA game given all the context and even without the context was a really impressive performance they absolutely battered the US and the US were a team that we looked at throughout the tournament and thought this is a decent team they played with great energy they had a lot of kind of momentum built up and there was a lot of positivity created around the tournament by this team and they swept them aside.

22:55Gregor Robertson: So they go into the game in a good place. But as I say, it's been a strange tournament for both, I think. And how much of that matters when you get into another knockout game, I'm not sure. I think Spain are the best team and Tom's right. Their sense of control that they can have over a game could well prove decisive.

23:13Tom Allnutt: I mean, it's a bit of a theme of the tournament, isn't it, really? Because of the new format, I think you sort of get to the quarterfinals and for a lot of these big teams, you sort of think, well, we still don't know much about them. because they haven't played teams that we were in a normal World Cup. You might say, oh, yeah, remember that brilliant match where they beat Chile or something in the group stage or they beat the Netherlands. And you think, yeah, we know what this Spain team are about because they played against a couple of Class A oppositions already because the groups are so sort of, you know, the standard is so low in all honesty.

23:43Tom Allnutt: You can get to the last 16 and you still haven't really seen the real contenders have a massive test. I mean, England are the asterisk there because I think Mexico, you know, were. But even that was in a certain way, you know, It was more the conditions and the occasion rather than the opposition. So we're looking at these sides like Spain and even Argentina and thinking, well, yeah, we've seen what they can do against third, perhaps second-tier opposition, but now is when we're going to see them against top-tier opposition. I mean, it's possible. Spain's a weird one because if they lose to Belgium, I think you would say, there'll be a big thing where they didn't really play very well at this tournament.

24:17Tom Allnutt: What happened? It was actually quite a poor tournament for Spain. That can just suddenly come out of the blue. but ultimately if they keep on rolling, then they're going to gather momentum as the tournament goes on. Yeah, well, I'd wanted Belgium out of this tournament. I said that in our show with Tony Cascarino, I was quite upset about their performances in the group stage. And I think just because I'd seen all their players before, I like seeing exciting things that I had not seen before, but they were very, very impressive against the USA. Both these teams, lovely away kits. I don't think they would both be wearing them, but Spain away kit and Belgium's away kit, both very enjoyable indeed.

24:49Tom Allnutt: Let's finish with a prediction then. I think it feels like a Spain win. I'm going to go Spain win. Sorry, Belgium. You've had enough fun now. I want a Spain-France semifinal. Tom?

24:59Gregor Robertson: Yeah, 2-0.

25:00Tom Allnutt: Yeah, 1-0. 2-0 Spain.

25:02Gregor Robertson: Gregor? Yeah, I think it'll be a Spain win. Like, I mean, there's just a lot of, still a kind of uncertainty about the Belgium team, not just because of all the things I said before, but, you know, they benched. You talk about we know all the players. We do know all of them, but De Bruyne, Lukaku, Doku were all on the bench against USA. Banana's done his ACL. Like, that's a big loss. it's not entirely sure how they're going to approach this game from a team selection point of view but ultimately Spain are on song and particularly Yamal they'll win the game

25:34Tom Allnutt: see if Rudy Garcia's got some tricks up his sleeve on the Belgian bench but France Spain semi-final is the predictions from part one of the show stick with us we'll be back in just a sec to review the other two quarterfinals

25:57Tom Allnutt: This is Ben Green from the Athletic FC podcast. Marketers, no matter what pitch you play on, a big win feels the same. Electric. It's that moment when you read the play before the trend even starts. Beat the clock on a campaign with a little help from AI. And connect with customers in real time, like you've trained for it your whole career. That's Contentful. World-class digital experiences built fast, built beautifully. Create and launch personalized content in an instant across every channel your customers are watching. No chaos, no limits, just open field. Take your shot at contentful.com. With the new MyLows Pro Rewards American Express card, earn three points per dollar spent on Lows qualifying purchases for the first six months after card account opening.

26:43Tom Allnutt: Plus, save 5 % every day on eligible purchases at Lowe's and earn points on eligible purchases everywhere else Amex is accepted. Card members get more at Lowe's. Subject to credit approval, 5 % can't be combined with any other offer. Exclusions and restrictions apply. Points subject to loyalty terms at lowes.com slash terms and credit reward terms at synchrony.com slash mlpra dash terms. Visit lowes.com slash business credit.

27:03Gregor Robertson: This week on The Business Podcast, George Arison, chief executive of the dating app Grindr.

27:09Tom Allnutt: Our belief is that age verification should be done at the app store.

27:13Gregor Robertson: UK politicians have gone the other way. Do you think that's a mistake?

27:16Tom Allnutt: It's a tremendous mistake and I think it's a massive disservice to citizens of this country.

27:21Gregor Robertson: Join me, Hannah Prevett. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business.

27:40Tom Allnutt: welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times these are our daily world cup shows with me tom clark tom allnut and gregor robertson and it's time to preview probably the toughest tie to call i think england against norway the game podcast versus alison rudd it's exciting and gregor robertson to be fair i should say sorry gregor to put you on the england side they're terrible from me you've got the norway flag flying you're pushing a false

28:06Gregor Robertson: narrative here Tom I'm supportive don't worry until the final until the final oh yeah that's the rule that's the rule then I'm conflicted and I don't know how I'd feel anyway let's move on

28:18Tom Allnutt: this one is probably the toughest to call would we say Gregor

28:23Gregor Robertson: yeah yeah I think so mainly because because you just don't know how if it's possible to stop Erling Haaland I don't know whether the familiarity is a positive or not he's just he's just a phenomenon and promises to be another fascinating another fascinating game seeing him doing very little but always known that he's prowling, menacing and capable of winning the game so I've really enjoyed watching Norway I think to play Brazil and have I think 66 % of the ball make more than 300 more passes than them part of that is to do with the way Brazil approached this game and other games under Ancelotti but also it shows that Norway are happy being the team in control but they've got different sides to them they're a bit like England in that regard they can play like that and they can also sit in and soak up pressure I've got some big physical dominant defenders and one of the best midfields I think in the tournament I've absolutely loved watching Patrick Berg I think he's been outstanding for them so much energy but also really neat with the ball at his feet.

29:38Gregor Robertson: Odegaard has been a warrior, actually, for them, as well as the midfielder who's got that bit of craft and guile. And Sanderberg kind of complements them. I think there's a real balance to their midfield. So that's been another big strength for them. And it'd be interesting to see who they choose out wide after making the changes at half-time in the last game, bringing on an Oscar Bob, taking off Noosa and Sorloth. So not entirely sure how they'll set up in this game. But yeah, it's a very, very hard one to call, but mainly because of Haaland.

30:21Tom Allnutt: Tom, thoughts on this one? I mean, of England's 53 different defensive options that they've already used at this tournament, basically tried every defender in every different position. I mean, how do you answer Gregor's question? You can't really stop Erling Haaland, but what is the best approach? Stick Dan Byrne on him for a wrestle? Play Stones and Grahi, who've fought two teammates at Manchester City? Where do England go here? Do they stop supply lines? What's the option? Yeah, they adopt the sort of, you know, Mexico rear guard in the final 11 minutes just for the whole thing. Get the back five in action, get Byrne on.

30:56Tom Allnutt: You can't, right? I mean, you can't. You know, we know because we, you know, know cover the premier league week in week out and you know we often come up with these you know questions about how do you stop harland you can't you know you have to get close to him obviously you have to keep an eye on him all the time and i guess gay he you know knows him well at least you know that's the best thing you can say but this is this is not an area of strength for england right like that they're the way norway win this match is if if if harland has a good game and england's defensive problems come to the fore you know england's strengths are not in defense you You know, we've seen that.

31:27Tom Allnutt: I mean, even in the Mexico game, you know, they conceded soft goals, you know, and we can talk, you know, and people have written, you know, brilliant pieces about the togetherness and the unity and coming through what was, you know, clearly a war almost in the Azteca. But in the black and white football performance, you know, there were still problems with that England game, in my opinion, you know, like, did that make me think they are better equipped to beat the best teams in the tournament? I don't know you know I still think that defense is a major problem you know and now they're coming up against you know with all respect not Raul Jimenez you know who is you know a decent Premier League striker they're coming up against the best you know striker in the world you know and that is that's a problem for England you know if they're going to win this match they're going to win it in other areas right you know Norway have a have a good team and you know Bergenberg for example in midfield have been have you know had a really good tournament equally I think you know Anderson and Rice would feel like they can win that battle.

32:23Tom Allnutt: You know, I think England going forward now, it feels like Gordon had a really good game against Mexico. You know, I think Saka looks like he's kind of coming into a little bit of fitness, hopefully. You know, obviously Kane and Bellingham are in scintillating form. And in a way, you know, Norway will be looking at Kane and Bellingham and thinking, you know, these are two absolute stars who are playing fantastically. You know, can we keep them out? You know, and I think that's where England win this match. You know, if it comes down to a Haaland versus, you know, on England's central defence, then England aren't going through, you know, in all honesty.

32:53Tom Allnutt: But I think coming out of the Azteca with the kind of feeling of togetherness and momentum that England have, I think that will stand them in good stead in this game. You know, thank goodness they've had, you know, nearly a week to recover because I feel like if this was a sort of a Premier League season where that was a European match and they had to play a match three days later, they'd be in real trouble because I suspect they're completely exhausted right now. But I think overall, I think they'll have enough to beat Norway. England have to stop the supply line to Haaland.

33:21Gregor Robertson: You can't do that when it's from back to front. You just can't. You have to have someone covering at all times and someone who's tight and doesn't allow him to turn or does their best. But you can try your best to stop crosses and deliveries from wide areas. And the way Scheidel kind of skipped down the line against Brazil and was allowed to put that cross in, killed them. That was it. They were dead in a moment. so I don't know how that ties into England's issues at right back and also Nico O 'Reilly is better going forward than he is defensively but that's something that's really really important because we saw how he just comes alive in those moments so it might sound simplistic but it's kind of true because them getting the ball in tight areas around the penalty box and stuff that's not his that's not his biggest strength it's when he's got big open spaces to run into when it's played from back to front or when a cross comes into the box and he can steal a yard or he can just overpower his opponent that's the avenues that England need to be most aware of

34:30Tom Allnutt: Do we think then it could be a similar game to the one you outlined where Norway are having more possession and that England are actually just trying to stop the passes and stop the kind of quick turnovers and things and actually England are the ones looking for the quick turnovers as they did against Mexico in that 98-second blitz?

34:46Gregor Robertson: I think there will be periods of the game like that, but I think the game state will be important. If England take an early lead, then yeah, they'll be content to do that. And I think we've seen that already in the tournament. If not, then you need to try and take the game to the opposition. So yeah, it will be an interesting tactical battle, but you know I don't I think I think how the game sort of unfurls as well will be important

35:15Tom Allnutt: yeah I mean Tom another part of this tournament that we maybe haven't heard from you on is is the brilliance of Kane and Bellingham as you say there the game podcast Norwegian equivalent will be sat talking about how do we stop Harry Kane in the same way we're talking about Erling Haaland I think actually that's where Alison Rudd's been for the last two weeks she's not actually been at Wimbledon she's been seconded to the game podcast Norway version after all her brilliant and wild praise for them before the tournament began it has been fantastic to see Harry Kane hasn't it I mean deliver on the world stage in such a brilliant I am clutch I am the superstar of this team and I will drag you through yeah I mean it makes me think actually you know I was lucky enough to do a lot of covering spurs between kind of 2014 and you know 2022 whatever it was when Kane left and at the time you know we always do this thing about Kane being underrated whatever yada yada yada not anymore but I do think you know I sort of look back now and think what a privilege it was to to cover Harry Kane you know to see Harry Kane playing for Spurs in the Premier League week in week out because you know you think now this guy is probably going to go down as England's greatest ever player you I think you know and and maybe he'll go down as a as a World Cup winning legend you never know like he might even win the Ballon d 'Or this year if if kind of things work out you know and and i always come back to that thing with kane right like it's a different thing to to messi and to uh you know even you know laminia mal for example you know he's he's he's a sort of andy murray sportsman right like he's someone who has just worked and worked and worked you know and you talk to all the kind of when you do these sort of profile pieces about you know kane you talk to the people at the beginning you know they don't talk like they do about other superstars where they say oh you know he got the ball and scored eight goals you know like we knew we had to put him up three age categories because he was so good, you know, like with Kane, everyone sort of says, he was all right.

37:04Tom Allnutt: He was all right. But actually, you know, he asked a lot of questions, you know, they sort of say this kind of thing or, you know, yeah, he was always really curious, you know, and so yeah, they're almost trying to find things that were good about Kane in those early days, because in truth, he wasn't a superstar, like, and he never has been really like in the early days of his career, but to sort of extracted that much end product and brilliance, you know, just from sheer practice, practice, practice, you know, and to got to where he's got to now, which is ultimately, I think, I mean, I think he's the outstanding centre forward.

37:38Tom Allnutt: You know, we talk about Haaland as a kind of a finisher, you know, out-and-out predator, but I think as an all-round centre forward, I think Kane is unmatched at the moment in world football. And I think in Bellingham and Kane, you know, if you ask me why are England going to win the World Cup, if I sort of put my hat on in three months' time and look back, you You're clearly thinking it's because of Kane and Bellium. Why will people in 30 years' time say, why did England win the World Cup in 2026? It was because Kane and Bellium were absolutely on fire. And if they can keep that going now and deliver those decisive moments in the biggest moments now, in the quarterfinals, semifinals and possibly final, that's what's going to win England the tournament.

38:16Tom Allnutt: To get there then, you're thinking they will beat Norway then, Tom, as a prediction? Yeah. I do think they'll be in the other way I have a slight concern about a hangover after Mexico, just the sort of get going again factor but I think it's enough, the space they have and I think they'll have enough, yeah, I think they'll win Gregor?

38:40Gregor Robertson: Yeah, just I think the same is true of wide areas will be so important like you've watched some of this tournament and David Moller-Wolf foul, the Wolves left back has looked really good going forward but then he's a little bit suspect defensively and in fact he didn't, there's a reason why he didn't play all that many games for Wolves last season and that's a team that were relegated so I think again if Saka's fit and available he can get the better of him and Gordon against Ryerson I think Gordon could have the legs over him so England depend a lot on those players producing and we saw that in the Mexico game as well.

39:23Gregor Robertson: I don't know, I'm talking myself around this. I think England should have enough, but I think it will be tight. I think it could be cagey. I think it could go to extra time.

39:35Tom Allnutt: Yeah, really interesting. Oh, one of my favourite moments on this podcast, and there are so many, is the Gregor Robertson deep intake of breath after I've asked him for a tricky prediction as he looked within inside himself and think, am I actually going to say England are going to win this game? Yes, he has. Interesting one. How have you got on, Gregor? What's his prediction rate being like in this tournament? Solid. I mean, he covers himself, doesn't he, Tom? Let's be honest. There's a lot of hedging that goes on. He says one thing and then actually gives a good excuse as to why it should actually be the other thing.

40:02Tom Allnutt: So, yeah, he's safe from the clip economy. You know, Jonathan, our amazing video producer, could probably produce a clip for him saying any of these teams could win the World Cup at some point along the way. He's a canny operator like that. as well as Alison Rudd falling in love with this Norway team in general I have fallen in love with their social media content it is the most wonderfully joyous thing to watch all the time whoever is in charge of it does brilliant plinky plonky music in the background to them doing quite impressive things but there was a really good video after the win against Brazil and their manager talking about we had a plan and you guys executed it so they will definitely be ready for England I just think England are going to I just can see this semi-final I just think they'll get there

40:45Gregor Robertson: I saw that video The video in the changing room I saw back in was, crikey, he was giving some rough treatment to the social media guy. He kept swiping for the camera and stuff as I get that out of my face. He seems quite a bold character and everyone's kind of sitting around afterwards saying to the social media guy, are you taking that? Are you going to take that? Yeah.

41:06Tom Allnutt: Soloff telling him to push him back and things. I'm telling you, if you haven't checked it out, go and have a look at the Norway Instagram account. Lovely, lovely stuff. let's finish then with the other the final game in the quarter finals Argentina against Switzerland and Gregor we were rightly reprimanded by producer Neil for our show yesterday talking about Argentina and then ending up talking about Egypt but listen we love Egypt they're hardly done harshly done by and I'm very sad that they didn't go through and didn't get that goal but I'm not going to start Argentina can we say anything about this Argentina team that is not starting with the words Lionel and Messi Gregor oh

41:42Gregor Robertson: I mean probably nothing else that's that original there i've kept saying how just experienced and gnarly they are and that's the truth like they keep finding a way to win uh they're they're like a team full of street fighters with a bit of craft uh thrown in for good measure but not that much like i don't know would you describe mccallister or fernandez as kind of really creative crafty players i think their main strengths are their doggedness, their desire their will to win and drive their team forward and then there's Alvarez and Messi up top but they're I think this is another one that could go to extra time, I think not a lot of risk will be taken by either team Argentina hope that moment of magic comes from Messi and otherwise they're fairly kind of low tempo largely unimaginative they have moments where they play quite incisely through the centre of the pitch because as I said on yesterday's episode they don't have much width at all but they do have moments where they move the ball quickly through the centre of the pitch and they look a threat, kind of slightly Aston Villa-esque like the way they've got a box midfield to try and play through the middle of the pitch but I think Switzerland are again a vastly experienced team a team that have been together and played in major tournaments for a long, long time now.

43:12Gregor Robertson: So I think this is one that could, again, that could go to extra time. Tom?

43:19Tom Allnutt: Yeah, I mean, I think what we said at the beginning of the tournament, I think it almost stands true here with Argentina. They know what they are. They know what they're about. I think we've said a couple of teams like Belgium, for example, are still sort of dropping big players and trying to kind of find their way through on the go. even Spain, to be honest, are a bit like that. They're having to warm up as the tournament goes through. Whereas Argentina, basically the team is the team. They know how they win matches. And that is a huge advantage. There's no second guessing. This team knows exactly what they're about.

43:51Tom Allnutt: They know how to win games. Clearly, there's the Messi factor. How can we get the best out of him? But I think, look at Lautaro Martinez, for example, coming on off the bench, what impact he had in that match. and they have goals in the team. You know, Enzo we've seen with Chelsea, he knows how to pop up in the box at the right time. I think Argentina are looking, I think they're looking pretty dangerous actually. Okay, the Egypt game was pretty hairy, but with Messi in this form, I mean, I'm sure you guys have said it so many times, but it really surprised me to see him this good in this tournament.

44:24Tom Allnutt: I thought in a way the pressure would be off here and we might see a kind of Messi unleashed, but just his sharpness has been such a surprise to me. I have to say there was part of me almost that like when he scored his like hat-trick in the group. So I was like, oh, I don't know. I didn't really share in all the kind of like, you know, everyone loving it. I was a bit like, I was sort of done with this. Like, you know, after Qatar, I thought like we'd sort of done it. Like we've sort of written all the messy stuff and the messy hype. We've had it for 20 years. Like, is there not something new like going on here?

44:57Tom Allnutt: Like, so I felt a little bit cynical about it. but it's kind of grown on me you know as the tournament's gone on i feel like i've sort of got into the messy thing again like i've had to kind of find those messy things in my body again which and i'm there now i'm there now but in the group so i was a little bit fatigued by it to be honest oh fantastic i was done with messy i had to find messy again in my i mean speaking speaking of the clip economy jonathan could ruin you with that one i think i was done with messy not bothered tom all not feeling the same about lionel messy as i do about this belgium team it really uh that's the shout of the tournament so far.

45:29Tom Allnutt: Be kind, Jonathan, to me. Be kind, Blin. You've got to beg very nicely. I'm sure he won't do that to you. But Gregor, we talked about Argentina-Colombia. That would have been incredibly exciting, feisty, two South American sides against each other. Is there any world in which that actually, from a footballing point of view, this experienced Switzerland team, Murat Yakin, the best-dressed manager in the competition as well, I should say, what a suave little gent that he is on the sideline. is there a world in which this is a better chance for us to see an upset a better test for Argentina from Switzerland than it would have been if it was all the kind of anger and passion and things

46:05Gregor Robertson: of two South American sides possibly I'm not sure it's going to be better for them for like from an entertainment value point of view as I say right um I think Switzerland are quite content to to kind of spoil the game not spoil the game just to be they're fairly unadventurous and don't have much creative spark or like cutting edge. Mbolo's like, Mbolo leads the line well and Doi's a willing runner and behind that they're like vastly experienced and organised and obviously like the loss of Manzabi to a knee injury has been a big blow. His sort of impact has been the big difference maker for them in several games.

46:51Gregor Robertson: So, yeah, as I say, I can't see beyond a kind of cagey game, unless Messi opens it up with a moment of magic and Switzerland have to do something different. You look at their games so far, they've been really kind of low. they beat Bosnia and Herzegovina 4-1 but there were some late goals in that there was a draw with Qatar at the start 2-1 against Canada was an edgy one the Algeria game 2-0 and then threw in penalties again they're not you look at the stature of those opponents and I don't think they've really faced a proper team yet Colombia were a good side and there'd been some really good games that they'd been involved in in the tournament but I think they lacked a kind of cutting edge.

47:35Gregor Robertson: Certainly did in that game last night as well. So, yeah, I'm loathe to say it. Like I say, I just think that it could be a really cagey on this. Yeah.

47:46Tom Allnutt: Argentina win in the end then. We talked about the not facing a test and things earlier, Tom. Getting past Cabo Verde and Egypt 3-2, having to come back, having to use Messi again. Think they'll do the same here? Yeah, I think they'll win this game. I don't know. Colombia would have been, in my opinion, slightly more of an intriguing tie because I think the match-up would have been... I don't know. I like the way Colombia kind of attacked and a bit more speed. I just think maybe Swiss... I agree with Gregor. I think it would be a cagey match and almost a bit like the kind of Morocco-France game.

48:19Tom Allnutt: I think you can't out-cage Argentina, really. They'll sort of find a way, right? I want to find an upset in this round, but this is not high on my list. Gregor?

48:31Gregor Robertson: yeah like my gut tells me Argentina will again find a way there's really like the emotion in this side and in the stadiums and so many games they've been involved in it's been extraordinary I mean Martinez was in tears when I think when they equalised in the game against Egypt like they're still a winner to come and then celebrations afterwards but the players were in tears just that kind of knowing that they dragged it back, they pulled it out of the bag. So I don't know whether that's a good thing, actually, or not going forward, but it's certainly been a force for them so far. And I think they'll come through this game just.

49:15Tom Allnutt: Argentina find a way again, which would mean that we have semifinals. We did predict, Gregor, we got there in the end, you know, with terrible shouts along the way, but that would mean that we'd have a France-Spain and England-Argentina semifinals. Oh, can you imagine that would be so, so exciting. We'll leave it there for now. We'll come back to those semifinals and whatever they may be next week. We'll be getting more insights, I should say, from Paul Hurst, who is in the Argentina camp in the coming days. And we'll hear from Matt Lawton and Johnny Northcroft with England to preview their game with Norway.

49:47Tom Allnutt: But for now, thank you very much to Tom Ornard and Gregor Robertson for joining me today. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back tomorrow to review France v Morocco. We'll see you then.

50:04Gregor Robertson: This week on The Business Podcast, George Arison, Chief Executive of the dating app Grindr.

50:11Tom Allnutt: Our belief is that age verification should be done at the app store.

50:15Gregor Robertson: UK politicians have gone the other way. Do you think that's a mistake?

50:18Tom Allnutt: It's a tremendous mistake and I think it's a massive disservice to citizens of this country.

50:22Gregor Robertson: Join me, Hannah Previtt. And me, Dominic O 'Connell, for weekly conversations from the world of business and entrepreneurship. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts or find our channel on YouTube by searching Times Business.