WORLD CUP DAY 29: Why England should make the final

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2:06Hello and welcome to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is day 29 of our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clarke and in part two I'll be chatting to Johnny Northcroft to get the hype going for England's big quarterfinal against Norway. But first, in part one, I'm joined by the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson to chat about France's win against Morocco, kicking us off with the quarterfinals with a win that we perhaps expected. The superstars duly delivered Kylian Mbappe amongst them. James Geerbrandt was at this game for us and he sent me these thoughts just after full time.

2:44So Kylian Mbappe became the second ever player to score 20 World Cup goals in what was a very serene, comfortable, kind of arm's length performance by France against a really disappointing Morocco. But I felt Morocco were quite underwhelming in the previous round against Canada and really I feared that it you know would be a very comprehensive win and so it proved Morocco were completely disappointing offered next to nothing as an attacking force really but France were brilliant they're you know they're simply a much better team with much better players probably than any other team in the competition and certainly than a Morocco team minus their best centre-forwards and their first-choice centre-back pairing, or at least one of their first-choice centre-back pairing.

3:45Mbappe, I thought, showed great composure after missing the penalty. It was nil at half-time. France had missed a lot of chances. And it was one of those games that felt like a losable match for France. It felt like, you know, you could imagine Morocco just nicking one and then, you know, France kind of succumbing to the anxiety of it all. But that wasn't how it happened at all. France maintained their composure really well. Mbappe scored a wonderful, wonderful goal. We were sitting right behind it. And it really was the perfect kind of angle. It almost didn't look like there was any path at all for that shot.

4:25There was probably just one tiny corridor. And he put it in the only place that he could put it. Dembele, it's funny, isn't it? we're kind of all so wrapped up in this battle between Messi and Mbappe and Haaland and Kane. The reigning Ballon d 'Or holder, two-time winner of the last two Champions Leagues, a guy who's got five goals now in this tournament and I think two assists, somehow has kind of gone under the radar, which is kind of an incredible thing to say. but he looks very at home in this team and they just are a very well-balanced unit and they look very, very formidable indeed. Gregor, James, they're summing things up nicely.

5:15I mean, this has ended 2-0, kind of the result we expected. A little bit of a straightforward drama-free quarterfinal, would we say? France worthy of the win. I mean, I don't know whether they're still in like third gear, you know, I still don't know if we've seen them at full tilt.

5:30Gregor Robertson: No, I agree. I was disappointed with Morocco I totally understand their game plan they basically parked the bus and got as many men behind the ball as they could but they offered nothing on the counter attack and it seemed pretty implausible that that was going to be sustainable there was a moment, one in the first half when Brian Diaz kind of went on a maze and was unfortunate to get a foul but I think they had like one touch in the France box in the first half and they ended the game with eight touches in the France box so I was disappointed in Morocco and the more I've thought about it, even the Brazil game was the moment everyone thought at the start of the tournament these guys are contenders but Brazil made quite a lot of teams look good they did subsequently so this is a good team, clearly but I don't feel that they lived up to their full potential but France, it was a stodgy slow kind of ponder his first half they were probing and trying to find a way through and like obviously Mbappé missed the penalty, won the penalty brilliantly with that yet another moment of his kind of lightning feet and just extraordinary jolt of pace that no one can deal with and then he came alive again in the second half to break the deadlock and that was a remarkable goal, brilliant finish, great touch from Dewey as well in the build up to kind of bring it down and slot it to him and like one motion.

7:01Gregor Robertson: But yeah, Mbappé's a star again. And then afterwards, it was kind of, France got into their flow, brought on Barcala, brought on Mateta to lead the line and kind of rough a few feathers. And you start to see their full potential. But the first half was cagey. Second half, France thoroughly, thoroughly deserved to go through. Yeah, lots to unpack there. I'm sure there are probably a few listeners that are demanding that I say that Brazil didn't make Scotland look good. But I mean, even though they let you pass it about of it you know at times as i said they lulled us into a full sense of security even after gifting him a goal after five minutes he's still he's still not over it listeners he's still not over it on your morocco point i think it's a good one because i agree with you i i was watching this thinking i thought they'd offer a bit more than this i thought this could be a real world cup cracker but it's a bit underwhelming is that because of france is that because they're so scary or is it because of the long tournament what are we expecting from these quarter finals do you think they might be quite cagey or do you think we've had some of the fun in a round of 32, round of 16, that's all I'm worrying about whether they'll be a bit more cagey why do you think that is, why do you think they played like that I mean I think it is France they didn't play like this in the other game they didn't play like that against Brazil or Scotland certainly not Haiti they didn't against the Netherlands they've not come up against it, nor Canada even though it was a 3-0 game it was never a 3-0 they've not come up against anything like France and they're attacking their forward line so clearly there's logic to it there's logic to trying to defend for your life make the game slow and try and break their rhythm and flow and then offer something or get a goal from a set play it's hard to know where the goal is coming from and I'm sure they would have hoped and expected to get a bit more when they won the ball back but they really offered very very little so it's disappointing really disappointing from Baraka's point of view I mean still been some positives from the tournament like you know Ihe again I've really enjoyed watching although he's completely anonymous in this game really because as a number 10 in that team you weren't going to see much of the ball Bouhadi's been an absolute star and there were moments in this game he was robbed once in the first half and Dewey nearly scored but he's got such great spatial awareness.

9:24Gregor Robertson: He takes the ball and he kind of looks over a shoulder to see what side the opponent's going to try and close him down at and turns away and spins and pivots the other way. He's got great awareness so I think he's got a big future but ultimately they came up against a far superior team. On France, I was also watching this game and some of their other games, Paraguay in the first half. Is there part of the joy of Mbappe and Alisse that spring? Alise did it in the second half didn't he where he just took the ball on a turn rolled a man and created something out of nothing does that kind of a move have to come from very slow ponderous side-to-side play to work before one of them goes or as I said in my intro have we not even seen France in fifth gear yet no I mean in answer to your first question I don't think you do need to see the slow build-up play I think other teams are are making that making them do that or making them, they're reducing the game a little bit from France's perspective so you know you think back to the Senegal game, you think back to the Sweden game, it wasn't like that, they were playing that sharp, aggressive, incisive stuff like from the off really and yeah but also when the game is kind of slowed down it does make those moments all the more jarring and sort of like extraordinary, you're right that one when Alise took it and there's probably no player better in the world at using the sole of his boot than Michael Alisi.

10:53Gregor Robertson: I actually saw a great little video on social media of Alisi doing a kind of training drill where there were three men in front of him and each of them had a ball and they kept rolling a ball at him one after the other and all he was doing was using the sole of his foot right and left to roll it to the three man. So there's two balls and three men in front of him There was always a free man and they were just pinging it in fast and he was rolling it left and right with his sole of his foot. I've never seen anything like it. And you saw that one when he took it with his back to goal in the second half and rolled it with his sole of his boot and the spirit with which he turned and was away and creating something was extraordinary.

11:37Gregor Robertson: He had a slow first half. He lost the ball a lot in the first half, but in the second half when a bit more space opened up or when he had to force something to open up a pocket of space, he did it. And by the end of the game, he was in his flow as well. So, yeah. And I'll say again, whoever, you know, the last game against Paraguay, it was Dewey coming on for Barcala and that freshness and speed transformed the game. In this game, Barcala didn't have to do it, but you see it again. You just see someone with that speed and dynamism and energy and skill and everything coming on on the hour mark.

12:12Gregor Robertson: Look, my goodness, what a weapon that is. Yeah, well, part of the reason I say it is that I'm thinking ahead to tomorrow's game, Spain against Belgium. Lots of people talking about Spain-France semi-final. Chris commented below our big quarterfinal preview saying, Spain and France equals cinematic. England and Argentina equals cartoon-esque, brackets, but brilliant. And I think that's probably a good summary of how people are feeling. But watching that and thinking about Spain's game against Portugal, I'm thinking, France-Spain couldn't be boring, could it? surely not clearly not you know I've had my brother messaging me going I think Spain and France might be really boring it might go nil nil extra time in pens listen we're a long way off that and Belgium probably might have something to say about it well yeah the thing is you just never know I mean we did think this was going to be a good game we didn't predict that Morocco would would be this defensive because they're a good team like and and it was a bit of a surprise and it was a bit of a disappointment although yes Spain want to control the possession and play like you don't imagine they're going to defend in the same sort of way so I couldn't ever think imagine that was going to be a boring game there might be periods of the game where Spain try and do the same and and slow it down but as he said we're getting ahead of ourselves we've got to get through first got to get past Belgium now just before you go mate I've got a final thing to ask you somehow we've ended up at a point after this crazy season this intense world cup of you banging the drum for anti-VAR.

13:38I joined the bandwagon halfway through the World Cup and now everyone's having a go at me for ranting on this podcast. We've had Jeff get in touch on social media saying, oh, I liked how Tom said he wasn't going to rant and then wanged on for 20 minutes. I've got Will, one of our young sub-editors, when that Argentina delay on the VAR came in going, oh, Tom, how long's the rant going to be today? So fine, leave it. I'm not going to say anything. Not going to say anything. But thankfully, thankfully on social media, when I did have a little rant, I must confess, Mark got in touch saying you've got to put that to Gregor on the next pod Tom so there you go I've got nothing to say what did you make of the very very long delay for Kylian Mbappe's missed penalty in this one?

14:16Gregor Robertson: Not an easy one to explain and a good one for the conspiracy theorists given that as you say there was an entire officials team consisting of Argentinians alone and that's the first time I read that one nation has supplied all the officials for a game but I think we talked before we came on air there was a little flash at the end that said there would be a VAR check and God knows what it was for because it was as clear a penalty as you'll ever see but it's ridiculous that he was standing there for I think what did he say three minutes and ten seconds three minutes with the ball on the spot that's the problem surely like if you're going to make him stand there they all have these processes don't they Dembele holds onto the ball Mbappe goes and rings his mum or something you know take your time don't stand there with the ball on the spot waiting to take it.

15:06Anyway, listen, it was a rubbish penalty. Another rubbish penalty. Another stutter penalty. Another stutter penalty. I see you've taken another germ of a conversation on the podcast and turned it into a piece on the Times website talking about centre-halves missing their penalties in the shootout. Wonder whether we'll get any more shootouts in the next three quarter finals. We will leave it there. Gregor Robertson and James Gearbrot, thank you very much for your insights on France's win against Morocco. Listeners, stick with us. After the break, I'm going to be chatting to Johnny Northcroft to get hyped up for England's game against Norway.

15:36We'll be back in a sec.

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17:29Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm delighted to say that I've got our Chief Football Correspondent and Football Journalist of the Year, Johnny Northcroft, with me. Johnny, hello. Hi. How are you doing, Tom? Yeah, good, mate. Good. I'm not sure I'm ready for it to end, Johnny. I'm not sure I'm ready for it to end. I had that day off wandering in the wilderness, no football, not sure what to do with myself, but we're ramping up now. We're ramping up. We're ramping up to these quarterfinals. But before we do that, I wanted to get final thoughts from you on Mexico and the Azteca and what a game that was.

18:06What a special night. Martin Samuel obviously written about it and discussed with me on this podcast how he rates it as England's best World Cup performance since 1966. Matt Lawton said it was probably his best night covering England. you get to come in now as the dispassionate Scott have we all lost the plot or was it really that good no not at all and and look at it you'll you feel guilty that you can't quite convey to people who weren't there what it was like all I can say is there's there's probably three things in my life that I've sort of hyped up or I've read being hyped up and you know most things do disappoint but they didn't disappoint one was the Grand Canyon one was the Taj Mahal and one's the Azteca stadium like it lived up to everything that I'd been told um the the noise level the the scenes when you know Mexico score and the beer and the peanuts go up in the air um and then that feeling of adversity and tension that you get in a big game when a team's it's all or nothing and a team's really trying to to grind out a result or to hang on I mean that's a unique particular drama in itself and we had that played out in front of us in this incredible setting um it was like it was epic and i i kind of staggered from the stadium i have to say i felt completely like uh you know like washed out because it was such an intense experience a brilliant professional experience um the mexican people as well absolutely sensationally nice i mean one of the things that sort of made, I think, the whole night was that at the end of this great piece of drama, the spirit was fantastic between the fans.

19:49And I'll never forget walking back up to the media bus and walk past the bar and there was a beer garden, there was karaoke playing, they were singing Hey Jude and you looked in and it was Mexico supporters and England supporters all together. It was wonderful, absolutely wonderful. Yeah, absolutely. a lesson in how to lose a football game as well I would say from Mexico as well as how to host one lovely to get your thoughts Johnny on a really special night we do have to now turn into the excitement of the coming days some interesting developing news today with Gerald Kwanza's suspension being upgraded to a two-match suspension feels a little bit like kicking a bloke when he's down this one and thoughts on that and how England are looking in that right back area we're hearing positive news on Rhys James is that right yeah yeah yeah I I mean, he didn't train fully yesterday, but the sort of vibes are that he's getting there.

20:47It wouldn't surprise me if he is ready. They're going to keep it under wraps. But, you know, he has had more than two weeks off. And, you know, I think there's a case for, if they do think he's, you know, even close, there's a case for gambling on it and have a plan B. I feel sorry for Kwanza because it wasn't the worst tackle, but it was a sending off. I think he slipped over the ball. He'd actually been having a great game, in my opinion, until then. As a young player, he was putting an awkward performance behind him and really sticking to his task. So it's very unfortunate for him. And then, of course, there's this sort of weird element that when it happens to America, they get things reversed, but not for anyone else, apparently.

21:34the whole sending off and suspension thing is making me quite twitchy as well about the amount of England players who are on yellow cards I mean we talk about this spine and importance of the team star players Declan Rice Jude Bellingham Harry Kane it's making me very twitchy about the idea that England could beat Norway and set up this huge semi-final with potentially Argentina without at least one of their star players has that been mentioned in camp is it a quiet murmur Yeah, no, it's a fear and we've seen it happen before. England, of course, have seen it happen before. All I'd say is that one of the things I think that made England's performance special in Mexico was the self-control and the discipline.

22:15The fact that after the penalty that probably wasn't a penalty that Harry Kane gave away, there were 30 odd minutes and England only committed one foul, which is amazing, really, especially when the referee was under a lot of pressure. Declan Rice booked in the first minute and then from that point onwards he doesn't put in a tackle and he doesn't engage in a duel so you know staying out of contact so they have shown real self-control and discipline what you can't legislate for is that moment in a game where you know by accident almost or you can't avoid making a challenge and sometimes you by accident give away a yellow card and let's hope that doesn't happen to England but you know these are these are these this is tournament play and if they can get through then then the bookings are expunged and they can focus on uh you know on on the final two games sound reasoning there Johnny but the only problem is you get through Norway and then someone is going to have to kick someone in the Argentina game that's the only problem that's the only thing I'm really worried about and then you miss a World Cup final anyway let's not get too far ahead of ourselves one man who you know I would say rose up to join some of these star names in Mexico was Anthony Gordon discussed that position on the left wing so much this tournament and listen Marcus Rashford has shown some bright sparks but what a performance from Gordon you know wrote him wrote his name into the England fan folklore with that one I think even just for winning the knockdown and winning that penalty but it was a great game you've actually been chatting to him for a piece that's on the Times website now I've just read it before starting recording what a great talker and what a really likeable man he seems I now I'm now rooting for him even more not just in in Englandshire but also for his rest of his career with Barcelona tell the listeners what he was saying yeah yeah look he's a great um example of of of someone who is on this kind of like I suppose and this is what he talked about this kind of relentless journey of self-improvement.

24:18He talked about coming from a really poor background in Liverpool and that there's something beyond winning that he wants to do, which is to, as he said, see who I can become on the journey. He talked about how he's overcome Knox's whole life and that he said, I almost need something to go wrong so I can put it right, that's me at my best. And then very honest about the fact that his first two games in the World Cup hadn't been what he wanted, hadn't been good, you know, quite peripheral against Croatia and Ghana. There was doubts in the Spanish press having signed for Barcelona. And he talked about how that's kind of where he likes to be mentally sometimes.

25:01You know, so of course he came out against Congo and changed the game with the two assists for Harry Kane. And then he was exceptional in Mexico. I mean, Jude Bellingham, of course, stole the show. No one surpassed Jude. but I mean the energy that Anthony Gordon put into that game top for pressing, reached the highest speed one of the highest speeds in the tournament but certainly in England camp and I think he saw him at his best he's this mix of a player with flair who can take on defenders take risks with the ball but off the ball is just sensationally fit and game I suppose he was still pressing in stoppage time he was back helping Jed Spence on the left and yeah it was great that he just sort of I think I've got a real sense of who Anthony Gordon is from speaking to him and yeah like I'm rooting for him too Yeah and I'd say now probably again with respect to Marcus Rashford's performances that's his position locked now isn't it?

26:01It's his to lose I think so I think what you And Rashford, I think, has had great moments in the tournament. He does bring goals, so it's not really a slight against him. But I think what you can see when Saka and Andy Gordon play, because they're so good off the ball and probably so tactically good, that given that Jude Bellingham in the number 10 position is actually pushing into the box and playing almost like a second striker, I think you do need a bit of balance to either side of him. because if you've got Madu Eki and Rashford, then you've got three players who kind of want to charge beyond and that's not really sustainable at this top level.

26:42So I think Gordon brings better balance and I think the way he's grasped the opportunity means he's a man in possession and Tuchel's very big on that. If you do something to get the jersey, then you keep it until you don't. It's just brilliant for England to have the competition between the two of them. How's the mood in the camp as we build up to this? Norway game we're chatting on Thursday evening now what's the vibe like in the camp we saw pictures yesterday of Jed Spence having a chat with people Morgan Rogers playing darts you know it was the kind of chill day the vibes day but speaking recently we've had Erling Haaland speaking to the press you know mischievously trying to wind up people and say oh well you know the English are favourites I think you guys in the press need to pile that pressure on I mean just being that great character that he is what's the mood like in the england camp are they feeling that pressure or is thomas tuchel trying to keep everything chilled as he did before things kicked off yeah no no sense of pressure at the moment i mean he i think he he revived uh he revived the players really by giving them those those two days off they've been pretty buoyant since then he he seems pretty buoyant i mean harland i guess is a character a lot of them know very well there's a manchester a city contingent in the tournament, in the squad rather.

28:02The interesting thing for me is, and some of us have been discussing this, Mexico was such a kind of incredible trial for England to come through. And Martin's right, probably the best away result in World Cup history. But, so everybody feels brilliantly at the moment. But if you go and lose to Norway, then everything changes back. and at the moment I don't think England can rest and say it's been a good World Cup and they don't want to rest at all, they want to win it obviously but I think there's still one game away from inquests and a kind of stain really that people remember because brilliant as they did in Mexico City and it's great to get to a quarter-finals they are ranked in the top four in the world they should be looking to get to the semi-finals and they should be beating Norway that is just the bottom line and of course Norway have already outperformed their expectations so it's a bit of a free hit for them.

29:00I just think England have been very good mentally so far. They haven't always played brutally but I think mentally in all of the games they've had to do they had to sort of come through a bit of a test and I do expect them to have the right mentality in Miami Yeah, this is why it's perfect that the Times and Sunday Times have a Scott leading our England coverage. It keeps everyone balanced, everyone measured, always good context, Johnny. So the final question is, can they? You mentioned their fourth, they should be reaching semifinals, but it is a tantalising prospect, isn't it? The vibes are good, but we've seen this story before.

29:34You go into a quarterfinal thinking, crikey, we can win this, we could get to a final, and it all comes falling down. What is your gut saying now? And obviously things can change, we can get team news and things, we should caveat that, but what's your gut saying at the moment? Well look I can say as a Scot without any kind of hype here England should make this World Cup final in my opinion They should beat Norway And Argentina yes They've got Lionel Messi Lionel Messi is a very good football player But I don't think they're a great team I think England should be able to beat them That's not hyping it up If you're asking me Who I'd expect to win those two games It would be England And I'll add to that I wouldn't expect them to beat either France or Spain in the final if it's them, but they could.

30:22It's just, it is though between two good teams in a stadium with a lot of heat and England haven't had to deal with the heat yet, funnily enough. And obviously, you know, anything really can happen in these tight games. They do have Erling Haaland and Martin Odegaard to play against it. It won't be easy. we saw Gareth South get handle a very similar situation well in 2018 when they played Sweden I think that's a template for England in that game they were able to sort of kill it early and once they'd scored and gone ahead Sweden's resistance sort of melted away so look, if England can bring their A game I think they win even with Haaland in the opposition so, you know, it's just what you want play your best and you win the game that's what you can ask for, isn't it?

31:13Absolutely, a good bit of exciting thoughts to end on from johnny northcroft but again always context that's always important for england fans a couple of days out from this massive game johnny northcroft thank you very much for joining me once again on the game podcast let's hope england's party continues but regardless the game podcast party will continue we'll be back with another episode keeping the preview vibes going tomorrow we will see you then

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