WORLD CUP DAY 32: Semi-Finals preview

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1:20Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is day 32 of our daily World Cup shows and it is time for the big semi-final preview. On today's show we'll be discussing England v Argentina, France v Spain, reviewing their journeys to the semi-finals as well as picking out our favourite new players and some other awards and asking, is this the best World Cup ever? I'm Tom Clarke and I'm joined in the studio by the football reporter who just got back from a stint on the ground at this World Cup. It's Tom Allnott. The former footballer who went to two World Cups with Ireland in 1990 and 1994.

1:57It's Tony Cascarino. And the former footballer turned journalist who spent most of this World Cup chatting to me at three o 'clock in the morning. It's Gregor Robertson. Gregor, we've got our shirts on. the Kate Verde boys are in the building complete complete bias Tom you better tell everybody that he's not Rangers shirt no that's true that's the point though guys I appreciate it yeah you'll never be going to Parkhead again I'm going to be handsome stick yeah it's this far enough away innit come on it's World Cup it's beautiful thank you Tom you're so welcome it's a nice kit as well yeah

2:28Tom Allnutt: yeah not bad listen I'm dishing out prezies and awards if you've got any requests Tony I kind of assumed that you would come in in one of your island shirts given that you actually played at a World Cup You still getting them? No. No? No, I've got my shirts, but Ireland haven't got there. When they get to the next one, when hopefully there's 64 teams, I'll wear it. Absolutely. Well, listen, we don't need to talk about WorldCups.com. We're here to talk about this one. I wanted to start off this big semifinal chat. Is this the right semifinal listing? Of course, I was remembering when I was previewing this show that these are the semifinals FIFA wanted, isn't it?

3:06that this was kind of set up for this to happen. You know, the top four ranked teams were deliberately kept apart as long as they topped their groups so that this could happen. You know, you've got me going, this is brilliant, the best four teams. And Gianni going, well done, Tom, well done. That's right, that's right.

3:20Tom Allnutt: They are the best four teams, would you say, Tom? I'll start with you. Yeah, I think they probably are, to be honest. You know, I mean, you could probably argue there were some teams earlier in the knockouts that maybe went out a bit early because they're a tough draw. You know, Japan, Brazil, I think maybe could have got through another round. I think there were a few maybe Maybe they kind of got to the quarters, probably around too many. But I think in terms of the semis, like most of us before the tournament, I think, right? Like we sort of said the top four teams were kind of France and Spain, maybe in a kind of group of their own.

3:47Tom Allnutt: Yeah. And just beneath that, maybe Argentina, England, you know, possibly Portugal, if they could kind of get their act together, but they didn't, you know. Columbia, Tom. Yeah, we are. Columbia, maybe. Columbia, we're good, but they're so disappointed against Switzerland. Yeah, Switzerland, yeah. I think if they'd beaten Switzerland, they could have beaten Argentina and they could be in a semi-final, but they really let me down. And I think, to your point, Tom, And we discussed this on a recent show about Morocco, for example, disappointing in that game against France. You had a couple of these teams that, if they played well in their big game, might be here now.

4:15But ultimately... Bit more braver. Yeah, definitely. I would have said that. Bit more front foot. Morocco couldn't sit back like they did against France. Even all the way back to Japan in that second half game. Anyway, it's a big win for the game podcast. A first huge prediction win because myself, Gregor and Tony did map out the entire knockout stage. And whilst we've got some stinkers along the way, including me backing Japan very strongly. These are the semifinals we did end up with. So Gregor, Tony, agree? We got there in the end. We got there in the end. But best four teams, do you think?

4:43We got the best semifinals? Well, out of the four teams, I'd say three of them have showed that they're in the best four. But there's only one team that's been really worthy of being in the top four is France. Yeah. Because they've all had moments, these teams. Whether it's Argentina coming back from obscurity where they've really looked out, certainly against Egypt, you know. So I would go, it probably is the right. England have managed it in moments again. I thought they were terrific in the last 20 minutes, winning the game. Yeah. They did. Well, let's talk about England and their game with Norway and also the kind of semi-final with Argentina as well.

5:18And Tony, I'll start with you. You know, we've not spoken to you since the end of the group stages. What are your thoughts on England now as a semi-final team? You know, we've decided that they're probably one of the best four teams. You've just outlined them as a moments team. Do you think there's still more moments to come? or is it going to be relying on moments in this semi-final? I truly believe they're a team getting better, which is an incredible thing to have in a tournament because if I look at performances, if I look at Anthony Gordon at the start, couldn't get going. But where we are now, you'll now look at Anthony Gordon and think, he's starting to be the Anthony Gordon that he was picked for.

5:50And I would go, Nick O 'Reilly, the same. He's got better. There's a number of players. Elliot Anderson's got better in the team. That's without mentioning the likes of Bellingham and what's with Kane and others. I think a number of players have just gradually improved on their performances. And that's what I think England can get the better of Argentina. Yeah, we'll come on to the kind of game in a minute. But Tom, that idea of England progressing and improving, would you agree?

6:13Tom Allnutt: I think I'm less optimistic than Tony, maybe. I just think, to me, it looks like a team of, a middling team with two outstanding players. It's kind of how I see it. And I think with Bellingham and Kane playing so well and delivering again and again, you can go very far, you know, when you've got two players who are playing like that, who are as good as they are. But, you know, the facts are that England in the knockouts have beaten Congo, Mexico and Norway. If you'd come to me before the tournament and said, will England get through those games? I would say yes, you know, but they haven't beaten in Argentina.

6:45Tom Allnutt: They haven't beaten in Spain. They haven't beaten in France, you know. And I just think the way they're playing at the moment that we've seen, the kind of stop-start, very kind of little spurts, but nothing particularly cohesive. And I have to say, I think Tuchel sees that. I think he sees that this team has got another level to go to. And ultimately, they're going to have to go to that level in the next game. And if they get there, in the final to win it. Yeah, well, you mentioned Thomas Tuchel there. Fascinating comments after the win against Norway that we didn't quite touch on Gregor in that show because we recorded straight after the final whistle.

7:16Talking about the brilliant mentality of this side, you could bottle the mentality, which I think, you know, you former pros would agree is a great thing to have in a tournament. But to Tom's point, I think he does see this team not quite delivering his vision. Would that be fair? And that's the kind of what you heard in those comments. And what did you make of them in general? It's quite a thing for a manager to come out again and kind of be quite critical of his side in terms of the performance. Yeah, I mean, look, he's not the first manager to be emotional in one of these post-match interviews immediately after the game.

7:47Remember Steve Clarke kind of saying, I don't know why we have to do these interviews. He was explicit about it. So he's not the first to be like that. And, you know, I think he was kind of guided by the questioning too a little bit. Like he wanted to talk about the nuts and bolts of the tactical things that they want to improve on and that side of it. And then he got a bit kind of irate, probably a bit of a, the questions were maybe worded a little bit clumsily by the idea that the mentality was some sort of issue. And that's not really what the question was. So he would say, no, no, like the mentality, as you say, you can bottle it, you can sell it.

8:19And that's true. That's what's getting England through. it was I think he's just emotional he's an emotional guy and I think it's the same is true of Bellingham we'll come on to talk about they were asked the question in the immediate aftermath not with the full context and the result was a clash it's kind of a little bit confected I think yeah yeah I mean I think there's a world in which like all things can be true Gregor you know I think as you say these pitch side interviews and I think as the wider context for people understanding as well these players and managers they go down a line and have to do these chats with lots of different broadcasters.

8:54I thought it was quite interesting that we had reporters still in the US who were feeding into our live file talking about the interviews. And Thomas Tuchel did say very similar things to other broadcasters as well. It wasn't just the kind of ITV chat. So it was clearly something he was thinking immediately after. God, this team's got a good mentality, but Christ, I want to see a bit more from them. And I also think that it's perfectly fine and actually great to see Jude Bellingham kind of just stick up for himself and his team. And I don't think it's necessarily a row. I don't think we presented it in our coverage as a row.

9:25It's just a really impassioned manager and a really impassioned star player kind of having differing views on a performance, differing perspectives. Tony, you've been there. You've been in these moments. What did you think? I just laugh. To me, it's funny. It's funny. I don't mind you, Ben, making comments at all about his idea and actually saying, you know, well, he knows his manager's really demanding. You only have to watch Tuka on the sidelines. He's literally playing every pass. He's literally waving the team. He's doing all of this all of the time. And he's one of them as a player, so I'm just going, will you stop?

9:56Sometimes will you stop shouting as well? You have managers continue. You know, you're laughing. They drive you crazy. They just keep shouting at you. And you say, will you shut up? You know, because you literally, you get that emotion on there. I don't have a problem at all. I mean, if you listen to Jack Charlton, some of his stuff that he'd say at the end of a game. And, you know, you've got us in this mess. Now get us out of it. You know, telling the lads. and he'd openly say that to people on TV. We never got bothered by it. We just, you take it, look, they're grown men. I know Drew Billum's 23, but he's a grown man now and he's played a place for Madrid, Real Madrid, but he's a hell of a talent that's going to go, do you know what?

10:34We've won this game and he's called him out. He hasn't played two coin that eight. He's run up down the sidelines and know how hard and demanding it was. I feel like we've, England are in a really great position and I looked at your eyes when you come in and you said Argentina when you said Argentina I was like you're loving it Argentina I'm right and I think a lot of England fans are like that and without going to how they get passed by Argentina I think it's been exaggerated by this idea that against it even come down to the pressure against the England team and there's all this going on at the weekend I'm thinking hold it a minute there's nothing better for the media if England do brilliantly well?

11:19Absolutely. There isn't anything better. Couldn't agree more. This tournament is great because England are still in it and absolutely true. Tom, your thoughts on the kind of interaction between Bellingham, not between them, but the comments that were made after the game?

11:30Tom Allnutt: You know what, guys? I think it's a thing. I do. I watched it the first time without any of the noise around it. Tom, can I just ask you one question on that? If it's a thing, do you think it's a thing that would damage what's happening with the team? Not short term. I think in the next, you know, a few days, this week, I don't think it matters in terms of this tournament. But I do think, I think when I listened to that, without any of the context, I didn't realise it was an issue, I thought, wow. Like he said, that's, to come out and say, and it's not just the words, you could tell when you watched him do it, the immediate eye roll where he sort of goes, you know, it looked like someone to me who wasn't just kind of coming off the pitch, who was like tired and a bit kind of, you know, prickly.

12:09Tom Allnutt: It looked like someone to me who was almost a bit kind of like tired of the manager, you know, like, Like, and we know there's this thing between Bellingham and Tuchel. We know, like, whether or not they don't get on or whether there's a history here, whatever. Like, Bellingham has sort of won the battle where he is so clearly now indispensable to this team. He feels like he has an authority. He can say, he can almost say what he wants, right? But I think the fact that he kind of responded like that so instinctively, just to me, kind of speaks to the idea that the players are slightly sort of, not the players, that's unfair.

12:37Tom Allnutt: Bellingham, I think, feels like, this is just a lot. Like, it's quite heavy on me, you know? And I sort of put it in the club context of something like Tuchel, for example. You get this all the time that you're really elite managers who think, we've won a big game. Everyone wants to praise us and say how brilliant we are. I'm going to use this opportunity to kind of make a mark and to send a message to the players. We can go to another level. And in Tuchel's mind, I think as a club manager, in his head, he's thinking, this is where I go now. We've got two big games coming up. Let's not rest on our laurels.

13:07Tom Allnutt: I wonder, in a tournament, does that work? Like in a tournament where you're trying to keep momentum going and the kind of feel-good atmosphere working? I'm not sure if it applies. But I do think with Belliam, he's annoyed, isn't he? It's not just someone coming out and saying, oh, you know, whatever. You can tell there's a little bit of niggle. Although actually, the fact that he said, whatever, is extraordinary in itself. Like a 23-year-old guy, it's just basically dismissing the views that were put forward to him by his manager, one of the biggest coaches in the world. And this 23-year-old just feels emboldened enough to just go, whatever.

13:41He is some man. It's only like a son saying to her dad, oh, whatever. I mean, Martin Sandfield's written about this today, talking to your point, Tom, of saying, you know, bowl manager, tough love, bowl move, all great, but it's a bit of a gamble. It is a little bit of a gamble having, you know, making those comments. And as I say, my point is that it wasn't just in the ITV. He said it again and again and again. He clearly was not happy with the technical side of the performance. Loved the mentality, absolutely. But Martin also makes the point that he's right. Yeah. He's right. They shouldn't be pleased with how they played because they have been quite average in large periods of almost every game.

14:18We think back to the second half against Croatia. What else has been good? The Mexico game was the same sort of stuff. It was the grit and the effort and the character and resilience. He's not seen much of what is actually his job. What do we think he wants then? Do we think he's seen something in training? He knows they're better. Have we seen anything though beforehand? I'm looking at it going, it's semi-final. it's the final week this is going to be a grudge match with Argentina we'll come on to the way they play at the minute but England have got Jude Bellingham in the form of his life and Harry Kane in the form of his life and as long as the other players some of the you've talked about Tony step it up a level England have got a chance of making a World Cup final what is he after though is it coming back to your point about club management Tom where he's wanting a bit more of that this is a proper team a fizz a tactics a style yeah that's the stuff he's in he's dreaming isn't he he's dreaming is this a learning for him he's not going to get Well, international management is far different from club management because at club, you might be going, we've got to suffer in for the next sort of six weeks where you can disappear and not see the manager till September, you know, which could be the next internationals for England.

15:24But Jude Benham isn't Bobby Charlton, who's a great player in a different way than always. Jude Benham is his own character. I mean, he's treated Jed Spence a little bit awkwardly as well, hasn't he? You know, by the way he's berated. Tuchel has, yeah. Yeah, Tuchel has. by the way he's on the sidelines and the way he's talked about. You could see him getting frustrated with Jed. So he's doing it. It's not just Jude Bellingham. But I know, in my mind, I keep looking and thinking, he just wants more because England are very close. They're very close. And if they had one really good performance, they'll be in the World Cup final.

15:58But I think there's also a misconception that you do actually need to raise the bar. I don't know if you do. The things that are getting you through could well get you through against Argentina. Argentina aren't... Yeah. They're not all that. It's getting closer there. It's getting tighter. It's getting tighter. They have the same characteristics. They find a way to win too. So, clearly, a moment of quality from someone is going to put a team through or elevate them. But it's not... I don't know if you have to necessarily... He wants to see all the things like that he's coaching on the training ground and he's been trying to drill into them.

16:28The patterns of play, the combinations out wide, all of that stuff. He's desperate to see it. You don't necessarily have to see that to win the World Cup. See, their manager has done the complete opposite, hasn't he? Argentina, Scaloni, yeah. Yeah, Argentina, Scaloni has done the complete opposite. He's literally praised everything and everyone. Although he admitted too that they were lucky a bit in Switzerland. Yeah, but, you know, it's just different. Lucky a bit is a stretch given the last three games. You're watching different games to me. Honestly, I've been pulling my hair out going, how have they done it again?

16:54This team, let's talk about this semi-final then. Maybe two perfect opponents for each other, not just in terms of rivalry and history, in terms of playing style as well. They've got a couple of absolutely world-class superstars and they've got a load of grafters in there who might run around and kick people, maybe one team more than others. I mean, what have we made of Argentina? I've been fascinated and infuriated by them, I'll be honest, at times. They are a fascinating team. You know, we've been talking to Paul Hurst, our Times reporter, who's been with Argentina the whole time. We've heard from him on the podcast.

17:24He's written brilliant articles. And I was chatting to him after this Switzerland game, as well as hearing from him on the pod, and I was just like, I've done it again. They've done it again. you know, we're talking about England not playing well. His view is that Argentina haven't played well in these knockout games in particular, you know, blew everyone away in a very easy group stage, but they have Lionel Messi. So they've always got a chance, but they're very good from set pieces. They're absolutely elite with their game management. They foul and get away with it like no team I've ever seen before.

17:54And they've got some of the, they've got, I've realised they've got every Premier League team's like scrapper. They've got every Premier League team's player that the opposition hate. Enzo Fernandes, Lissandro Martinez, Emi Martinez, McAllister. Like, they've got... Yeah. Romero. Romero, the ultimate. Even Tottenham fans didn't like him at the end. Like, they've got every single one of those players in that team scrapping, falling over. Like, it's one of the most remarkable things I've ever seen. Anyone think they're actually any good? Well, it's not that dissimilar to Qatar. We've said this all the way.

18:25Yeah, no, I've said that. It's not that dissimilar. Like, they're a team set up to put Messi on his pedestal and hope they create some moment of magic. Look, we should say Julian Alvarez created the moment of magic in the last game. But they've needed extra time to get through against Cape Verde and Egypt and Switzerland. They were going out with 11 minutes to play against Egypt. So you're right. There's clear flaws in the team. And as much as you say they're a great, gnarly and experienced and all that, they've looked shaky defensively for large periods of games as well. But they are finding a way and they've got a huge experience.

18:58And they know all the kind of dark arts. and that's not it's not just them like England are starting to get good at them too it's just no bad thing and they do still have moments players too the players of real like world class ability who can win a game that Alvarez goal is an absolute beauty but you're right mostly it's a it's a dogged team that plays really kind of compact and narrow football they've got hardly any width and they hope for a moment from Messi yeah Tony? I think they're a far better team with Lautaro Martinez in it. I think when he comes on and just leads the line like he does because he's another player that digs deep and it seems to fit a bit better for them.

19:42I don't think they've got a lot of pace in midfield. You know, like, McCullough's not quick. Enzo Fernandes is not quick. You know, you can look at De Paul. He's got more energy. But I do think they lack that ability in midfield to get as close to the opposition, even though they do commit a lot of fouls. I think it's because they're not that quick in midfield. You mentioned the back line. The back line against Switzerland, three of the four got substituted in that final part of the game. You know, because the manager had seen that they were struggling defensively. Even though Switzerland went to 10 men, which was the bizarrest sending off I've seen for a long time.

20:18Really, you think? I just thought it was weird. Why a player would just, you know. Weird in what sense? Well, weird in the sense that, you know, he's basically gone over when he doesn't need to. Oh, yeah, bizarre. You know, you don't do that. Yeah. Especially if you're on a yellow card. It's cost Switzerland dearly. I think they do it. I think England can beat what I've seen of Argentina. And I get all the magic moments. But that team has got away with it by hooker by crook. And they sort of got away with it in the World Cup, as Gregor said, in Qatar. Tom.

20:49Tom Allnutt: But they can say the same about England. Exactly. Exactly. You know, Argentina journalists will be sitting down. I think a little bit worse. I think they've got away with a little bit more than England have. I think to your point, I was thinking about you, talking about England have beaten Congo and then they've beaten Mexico, then they've beaten Norway. And I'm like, it's the same thing with Argentina. It's the same thing, Cape Verde, Egypt, Switzerland. It's basically the same map to this point, isn't it, really, in terms of levels. But I'd say Argentina have looked shakier, conceded goals, not gone down to 10 men, not quite had the same resilience moments that England have needed.

21:21They've kind of had moments that are a little bit easier. I cannot stress to you enough, for anyone who's not watched the entire Switzerland game. They were absolutely out on their feet at like 55 minutes. There was a moment just before Switzerland equalised where they had every player behind the ball. Lassandro Martinez won a tackle and just booted it downfield. It was like the moment in an FA Cup game when like the League One side are like clinging on. Did you see England play Mexico? Yeah, they had 10 men. They had 10 men. They had 10 men. Argentina had 11. Like it was crazy.

21:53Tom Allnutt: It was an Egypt game. We can't pull the Mexico game and say England are taking all this resilience and spirit. And actually, Argentina have sort of done the same thing. They'll be saying the same things. We've done it the hard way. We won ugly. We feel like we've got this togetherness now going into the semifinals. They'll be saying the same thing. I think as well, like they have, I look at the team, the Argentinians, I take Tony's point a lot about midfielder particularly, but I do think they've got slightly more quality in the final third. I think they've got more technicians in there. I mean, I take the point about the kind of scrappers and there's a lot of players who irritate the hell out of you.

22:27Tom Allnutt: Fine. But Enzo Fernandes can play. You know, like Julian Alvarez is a 150 million pound player, if you ask Real Madrid. You know, like Lautaro Martinez, you know, one of the best kind of European forwards of the last decade. I agree, but you have players that you can either come off the bench or who can deliver a moment. If I look at England's, you know, attack, it's Bellium and Kane and a bit of other stuff. But Argentina, they have a team. They do have a team. Yeah, I mean, where do we think this game will come down to then? We keep talking about Lionel Messi and Jude Bellingham and Harry Kane, of course, but like around the edges then, is that where this game is going to be won and lost in terms of the players around and who wins those individual battles?

23:03Because there will be a battle, I'm telling you. There'll be a lot of falling on the floor in this game. I can promise you that.

23:08Tom Allnutt: Yeah, control of the midfield, I think, will be key. You know, how fit is Rice? You know, is he able to deliver a big performance in this game, I think is a massive question for England. Yeah, I think getting control. I mean, I can see this one being tight. I can see it going to penalties. It's that kind of game where it can just sort of, it'll be about a moment, you know, here or there. Keeping 11 on the pitch is going to be a big one. I think the full-backs, Argentina's full-backs can be got at too. Molina and Tagliafico, they're not rapid. They're not, and as I said, they don't, Tagliafico a bit more so than Molina.

23:40They don't offer a great deal. They'd maybe get up and support attacks, but they don't play with any width. So they've got a lot of responsibility, both going forward and defensively. And I'm not sure if Gordon and whoever plays on the right is on their game. I think that's an avenue that England can definitely exploit.

23:58Tom Allnutt: We haven't mentioned Messi either. I mean, Messi's in the team. I'll be able to have a 10-minute chat about Argentina without mentioning. And also, not playing against England in his career is an interesting thing. Messi quite likes to tick every single box, and he has. And I remember when he played for Barca, there'd be sometimes a little quirky statistic where, you know, he hasn't scored against Sevilla for 10 matches. Hat-trick. You know, like, he likes to put a stamp on those kind of little things where people say, well, you haven't played against England before. You know, like, OK, you'll want to score against England, 100%.

24:27I mean, it's been ignored as well. He's got 15 goals in the last two World Cups so far, Lionel Messi. And likewise with Mbappe, he's done exactly the same. And all the talk before the Norway game was Haaland and Kane. And they were probably the two most underwhelming, as in what we know they're capable of, that didn't happen. You know, Lionel Messi is a player that I feel is all structured about just, and it's an obvious one, but getting him in certain parts of the game in position to make the difference. And he does it. That's my point about, you're quite right, Enzo Fernandes is a very good midfielder.

24:59But that's what's been fascinating watching it, is that it is so geared to Lionel Messi that it's like a lot of these players turn off their, like, technical ability and just turn up. They're like, come on, we're Argentina. I mean, like, Alvarez, even after this game, he scored one of the best goals of his career, probably, most important goals of his career, one of the best goals of the tournament, he comes out and he's like, we did it all for Lionel. Absolutely all for Lionel. And he's like, do you want to big yourself up a little bit, mate? You've just bent one into the top corner from a ridiculous distance.

25:27He's like, no, no, all for Lionel. That is who we're here for. But they all run for him, don't they? Oh, good. Well, they've got to. Yeah, he's got to. But it's amazing to see that none of them have an issue with it. I mean, it helps when he delivers so regularly. That makes a big difference. England's defence then, we're talking, Tony, you're praising Lautaro Martinez. Julian Alvarez has scored a wonder goal and there's some bloke called Messi that England need to worry about. Where are England's defence at, Gregor? Because it's been a much-changed defence. I thought in terms of maybe if we could look at silver linings and Tony's idea of England peaking, John Stones coming back into the team and delivering a big, experienced performance against Norway.

26:00One of several who was stretching out his calves or his hamstrings or whatever throughout the second half an extra time. They're all dead on their feet. Gehi looks dead on his feet. Konza looks dead on his feet. Konza's been an absolute warrior in this tournament. It's to do with Miami though, Gregor. James has just... Yeah, it's... Miami. Yeah, but you put that on the back of the Azteca, they're dead. Yeah, I know. The recovery is going to be like, they'll do nothing between now and the game. And Rhys James has just come back. Jed Spence was the one who came in and looked like all the energy.

26:31The Jed Spence off the bench cameos, they're up there with Dan Byrne, aren't they? In terms of like, comes on, makes an amazing tackle and has Jude Bellingham coming up to him and going, you're a legend, mate. Absolutely class. It's very, very odd. Right then, who's winning? England v Argentina. Who makes the final? I think England. I've always said they'll beat Argentina. Why? Why? Because I just think they've got a little bit more quality in certain areas. I think they're a bit more of a team and they haven't played their best. Well, I don't see a much bigger improvement on Argentina. I thought that you mentioned getting away with it.

27:03And we said England have as well, which is a fair point. But boy, the Egypt game, they were literally taken apart by Egypt in periods where it could have easily got away from them. Yeah, I think they might lift their game a little bit for England. Tom?

27:18Tom Allnutt: I'd think Argentina. Sorry. Funny, the press are all against England. Yeah, the press are all against England. Here we go. It's funny, Tom doesn't say things through gritty teeth. He says it through a wry smile. He's like, ah, I just can't bring myself to do it. Gregor, now remember, you've got your Kate Verde shirt on. I've been fighting an urge. so I'm not going to fight to think that England could smash them yeah honestly I don't know why I just think I think Argentina aren't great I wouldn't be surprised and I think they're so reliant on Messi turning up and being given and creating a moment of magic otherwise they've been they've been big flaws in their team and as I said I think it's wide they have flaws and I think they've also stretched in periods of games and like for a team that is trying to be compact and sort of disciplined And that's alarm bells.

28:10Tom Allnutt: If they smash them, though, we'll be seeing in England. We haven't seen the tournament, right? Like, it will be in England we think we can see, but we haven't seen, actually, in the last three weeks. So has Gregor lost the plot as well? Everyone keeps talking about me losing. I think England will win. And I wouldn't say smash them, but I do think they're, for me, comfortable favourites in this game. Crikey. He's definitely got the Cape Verde buzz on now. He's got his shirt on. Absolutely fascinating. We have got another day of preview show. So if you've got views on England against Argentina, do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk.

28:43We're going to take a quick break right now. We'll be discussing France against Spain just after this.

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29:35Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows with me, Tom Clark, and I've got Tom Ornott, Gregor Robertson and Tony Cascarino with me in the studio. Let's talk about the other semi-final, kind of a big game as well, I suppose. France against Spain, probably the two best teams in it. Probably if we'd had different routes to the final, this probably should have been the final. Tom?

29:58Tom Allnutt: Yeah, I think probably, yeah. I think France, best team we've seen in the tournament so far in terms of eye test. And probably the one that we all thought before the tournament was the outstanding favourite. I think Spain is less about what we've seen and probably more kind of what we know. Like, Spain have been good, but I think what we said before is also true, that they haven't necessarily shown, you know, real A-grade Spain yet. I think they've got another level to go to. But yeah, I mean, I think whoever wins this match will be the strong favourite for the final, right? And I think in a way, it's an interesting game as well, because it's a clash of styles.

30:30Tom Allnutt: I think France have, you know, this kind of fabulous four up front, you know, and players who can just go past people, win a game on their own almost. I think Spain is more of a sort of system team, you know, where there's no kind of outstanding player apart from Lamin. And even Lamin, I think, is one or two, you know, levels below in this tournament because of his fitness and sharpness. It's more about can Spain kind of control the game, you know, in terms of midfield, the possession. They've got players who will just pass you to death. And if they can kind of get a hold of the match and dictate it like they want to, then I still think they can win this match.

31:00Tom Allnutt: But I think France go into it maybe, what, 60-40 favourites? Lovely summary there, Tom. Don't need to ask the other two. But let's get into the two teams in more detail then. And because, Tom, you have written a piece about France and how they became world football's dominant power, headlined on the Times website, Vava Boom, which I really enjoyed, whoever came up with that one. Tell us a little bit about this piece, because it really maps out how they've reached this point where they have so many elite footballers and elite attackers on the pitch? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if people sort of, I mean, to me, I was sort of like, wow, I mean, France now, obviously, for a long time have been very good, you know?

31:35Tom Allnutt: And if you compare them to the kind of most storied eras in kind of international football, you know, you think about kind of Pelé's Brazil in the 50s and 60s, they reached, I think it was, you know, you asked me on the top of my head now, I think it's five finals, one, one, or four finals, one, three. West Germany, kind of 70s, 80s, reach five finals, one, two. who if France get to the final here, they would have played eight tournaments and got to five finals. Five World Cup finals out of eight. I mean, it's an incredible record. Four World Cup finals out of seven as it stands. This is the dominant team of this era.

32:06Tom Allnutt: And you think about the kind of 98 team with Omri and Zidane, they kind of win again. And then now we've got sort of Mbappe, for example. He's won behind Messi in terms of World Cup goals. And you'd think he's probably got, what, like two or three tournaments in hand. I mean, he is going to go down as one of the World Cup great players as well. And I mean, you know, Tony knows more about this than me, but I mean, if you talk to people in France, they sort of say that it's a combination of two or three things, clearly an excellent academy system, but equally lots of the sort of main nations now have very good academy systems.

32:36Tom Allnutt: England do, of course, and other sides as well. The differentiators, I think, for France are clearly the kind of rich melting pots of cultural diversity. Being able to draw on players from Africa, from all around Europe, that is a big part. You know, the vast majority of the French team can play for another country, you know. And what does that give you? It gives you more of a diversity of skills. You know, you kind of reduce the kind of shared limitations of a team that's kind of come through the same system from the same country. They talk about an extra, you know, more creativity. But also what I thought was interesting was that people basically say in the big football cities like Marseille and Paris particularly, you know, street football is still a huge thing.

33:14Tom Allnutt: You know, like cage football, we have these kind of city stats that are kind of like just little sort of five-a-side pitches, concrete, maybe Astro, always open, free, just available, clearly in very poor areas of these cities where kids just are playing all the time. And it's a weird thing, right? Because it's kind of very associated with poverty, you know, in these kind of areas that are really tough areas to kind of be brought up in. Football is like a salvation. But that kind of street football culture, which I think has been lost in some more sort of developed, if you like, football countries here, perhaps, where everything is so lent on kind of the academy system, players being coached from a very young age, maybe you lose some of that kind of those instincts, you know, that kind of dribbling ability.

33:54Tom Allnutt: And then also the last kind of point was just, you know, is Ligue 1. Like you look at the stats for the number of 17, 18, 19-year-olds who get minutes and appearances in Ligue 1. It's more than the Premier League, the Bundesliga and Serie A combined. You know, last season for 18 and unders, you know, playing games in Ligue 1. So you have this sort of mixing of cultural diversity, street footballers, who then get the opportunity very early on to basically polish those skills in a very physical league. And you get, you know, the golden ticket. You get this again and again, talent coming through, and that's what has produced this incredible era for French football.

34:32Did you say in the piece that there were 99 players born in France at the World Cup?

34:36Tom Allnutt: French-born players at the World Cup, 99, yeah. It's extraordinary, isn't it? Amazing. Tony, you've played there, you still follow the game over there. Tom makes a great point about it is set up for this nation to be grateful. I don't think I've ever heard so much truth in what Tom had said in his piece, because France and my experience of being there for six years, and watching the younger generation, how opportunities were given them at academies and also how clubs in France allowed their players to move on. They were quite confident of going, we'll replace this one, we'll sell him. And Lyon were great at doing it.

35:08They were champions for a good number of years. The change for France was back in the early 90s when they had that miserable night against Bulgaria. They didn't qualify. And the whole build-up towards the 98 World Cup was there for every scene. They didn't play particularly well in England when the 96 euros. Zidane came over as a young man. I remember talking to players saying, you've got to see Zidane, you've got to see Duguri, these players, because it wasn't on TV then. And so you've got to see how gifted they were. Zidane come to 96 euros and didn't hardly have a kick. But I've seen the development.

35:39Street football is massive in France still, especially on the suburbs of Paris. There's a coincidence. I mean, I don't know, Tom, because I didn't see your piece, but how many would have come from the region of Paris around the suburban areas

35:53Tom Allnutt: because that's huge as well. Yeah, I mean, in terms of the 99 French-born players of the World Cup, I think second is the Netherlands or something like 65. I think Germany is maybe 50. Paris, 57, you know? Wow. Just Paris. No, I know because it, I mean, you even have to go back to the Enel because of this world and, you know, there's loads, the list is endless of players that have come through that sort of system. And even the minor clubs in, I played for Red Star, which were originally the biggest club in Paris. and they become the smaller club because of PSG when they started in 1970. You then look at the clubs around.

36:28Paris FC is not a big club. That's where Rosinha has just gone to. Leon Rosinha has just gone to. You know, there's small little Parisian clubs that attract less than 1 ,000 people, but they still have a stream of players that move on. Yeah, absolutely. What's great as well is that for a large part of this, you know, we're talking about several generations of extraordinarily talented players. the Fadidic Deschamps as manager since I think 2012 he was a pretty conservative coach and actually the football has not been very entertaining that's not the case now something has changed like whether whether it's the players he's had at his disposal he's like I can't do anything other than play a different formation you know 4-2-3-1 instead of like 4-4-1-1 which was almost the case get them on the pitch they're so good let them do their thing and it's been a joy to watch yeah absolutely but it's also

37:16Tom Allnutt: I mean the opportunity thing is absolutely key. You know, I mean, you look at England's two-star players, like, it's an interesting test case with Kane, isn't it? You know, if Kane came through at Marseille, for example, he would have been getting minutes and games at 17, 18 years old. In fact, at Tottenham, you know, they were sort of loaning him out all the time. And actually, they wanted to keep on loaning him out. And it was only because Kane has this kind of like extraordinary self-belief that he said, no, actually, I want to stay and compete. And then, of course, you get Pochettino comes in and it works for him.

37:45Tom Allnutt: But only just, you know, And if you look at the kind of Mbappe, like, you know, was 16 when he played for Monaco first time. Douai made his debut for Stade René at 17. Kone, for example, debuted for Toulouse at 17. Cherokee debuted for Lyon at 16. You know, like these kids, they're getting, they have the skill, but they're also given the opportunities. And if you compare that to the Premier League, it's an age-old debate, right? How do you get players like Foden and Bellingham and Kane to be playing that early when actually they have to sort of wait and wait and wait because the Premier League teams are so strong.

38:18And move to Borussia Dortmund. I was just going to say, a big part of the answer to that is actually the move abroad now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really interesting. It's interesting on the point about Deschamps, Gregor, and this team, as looking back at Spain-France, which was, of course, the semi-final in Euro 2024, Spain winning that game, and you look at the France team, you know, Kolo Mawani started up front with Mbappe and Dembele either side of him. The midfield was Rabiot, Chiwomeni and Kante. It's just that slight different, like, caution from Deschamps. He got midfield packed, Three very good midfielders, but it's not the same as sitting Kone and Rabiot there and going, right, you four, go on, be brilliant, which is what it's been at this World Cup, hasn't it?

38:52And it's been such a joy to watch, Tony. Yeah. We're talking about roots to this point as well. I would say France as well. The other thing that they've got in their favour is that they've had some tough games along the way. You know, their group stage, beating Senegal, one of the more tougher opening games, had some proper contests. Me and Gregor have talked about it. I still don't think they've even hit fifth gear yet. They still kind of look like they're cruising along at times. Well, the scary thing about France is that ridiculous pace up front. It just changes in a second. You can be defending and then suddenly, whether it's Alissa, whether it's Dembele, Mbappe, Bacola, Douai.

39:30I mean, it's just frightening them names in themselves to mention. I can't see how the fullbacks of Spain handle them because Cucurera, I watched him against PSG and he had a really hard time. Douai gave him a really, really tough time. and Bacola on the other side. OK, these are the international four. But some of them Spanish players are playing. You know, can Poro handle whether it's Bacola, whether... You know, because sometimes even you look at the French team, you'll certainly see Mbappe go on the left as well. Yeah. And someone will go central for it. Yeah, yeah. The only trouble is Poro and Cucurea are another great examples of that thing that I'm obsessed with about tournament players.

40:04Yeah. Like, who's this bloke over here? He's amazing. He looks like Cucurea, but he's like 10 times better than the one that we see for Chelsea. And Poro the same. Tom, on Spain, they're a team that we talked about, obviously, with their quarterfinal win. I've kind of been thinking about, are they a little bit like Arsenal in some way? You know, they're brilliant defensively, very good at kind of controlling the game, doing enough to win. You know, in Lamin and Saka, they have two star players on that, like right wing with left foots coming inside that have maybe struggled with a little bit of injury and fitness.

40:34They're finding a way to win. I mean, I've loved seeing Pau Kubasi in centre defence. What a lovely and wonderful emergence he has been. I mean, he looks about 16, about 12. He is about 16. Yeah, yeah. He's been brilliant. I've seen Laporte as well as a player I always really enjoyed in the Premier League. French-born. Yeah, absolutely. All right, we get it. But what about this Spain? We talked about England and Argentina. Have they got another level to go to? Have Spain got another level to go to?

41:00Tom Allnutt: Yes, definitely. I think they know they're going to have to go to that level in this game as well. I think it's funny because we think of Spain as being a real kind of favourite and a real kind of established nation now in terms of this football landscape. But actually, in Spain, they're still sort of hanging on to this idea that they're a bit of an underdog coming into this match, right? Because in terms of the World Cup, they won it in 2010, but actually their record overall in World Cups has been pretty modest. They haven't gone far very many times. So they sort of have this idea that they're already done well to get here.

41:33Tom Allnutt: That's not to say they don't believe they can go and win it. I'm not saying that. But I do think they come into this game with a slightly different kind of psyche to France who, you know, all the pressure is sort of on them, all the expectation is on them, right? Like, I mean, I think Spain, in terms of their forward line, is kind of the interesting part because they haven't, I don't think they've quite nailed it yet. You know, Lamine is still kind of gathering momentum. I think there are signs that he can deliver at the end of this tournament. Baena on the left kind of gives something a little bit different to what Williams gave in the Euros.

42:00Tom Allnutt: He's much more kind of coming inside. So you haven't got that kind of two wingers just bombing forward, you know, pace, pace, pace. Baena loves to take the touch, look, and then go backwards. Yeah, come in. And back inside into Ole Miss. Exactly, yeah. And then you've got Olmo, who, you know, he's trying to find that kind of pass and ultimately, you know, bring on Marino and he's the guy who kind of scores the late goal, right? And you've got Oyathabal up front who's a connector, you know? So it's almost a little bit more, in my opinion, a bit kind of more old school Spain of sort of 10 years ago where it's quite passy-passy.

42:26Tom Allnutt: Can we find a way through, you know, rather than what worked so well a couple of years ago where it was the pace and the penetration, you know? Well, it was the synthesis of the two, really. Exactly. That was like

42:39and sort of linear up and down. You're right, we haven't seen that. There's more, you watch a lot of Spain games in this tournament and you think, crikey, have we got an extra man on the pitch? That's the vibe. But often that's like in the middle third or just approaching. It's not actually in, you know, there've been a couple of, you know, the move that led to the goal in the last game against Belgium was really good. A little link up with Lomal and Poro on the right. I think he cut inside and kind of played him down the channel and it was a cut back but it still had a fumble from Courtois.

43:10Tom Allnutt: And the quick free kick, who was that against? I can't remember the one where they took it quick and it went through and Marino scored, wasn't it? Oh, Portugal. Yeah, just a lovely little move, you know? It's just a little bit of the Spanish kind of tiki-taka and you're in, you know? Yeah. The cutting edge has not really been there, I don't think. I said before, I think really the only game that I've watched them and gone, wow, was the Austria game. And they won 3-0, they suffocated them and they had a bit of cutting edge. The Saudi Arabia game after, it was like a response to the Cape Verde game and that Saudi Arabia.

43:36I think every other game has been nip and tuck. They've dominated a lot of the play, but you wouldn't say they were richly deserving winners against Portugal. I don't think so. Well, a standout player for me, for them, has been Rodri. He's been phenomenal. That's the best I've seen him. After a long injury and playing different for Man City, I felt he's really... He's had the ball so much. He's definitely... I mean, I haven't looked at the data, but he must be top of the passing and keeping the ball because he's done it brilliantly for Spain.

44:04Tom Allnutt: Yeah, he's really been up there. Pedri, in a way, has had a quiet tournament. Conversely, in a way, maybe it's part of the problem if you kind of have Rodri on the ball all the time. Well, it takes away scoring as well because he is going to keep the ball. And as great as it can be, Spain don't look as fluid or as effective of getting goals. You know, look at France and you go, they could beat someone 4-1. I can't see Spain beating anybody 4-1. But is this not actually perfectly set up then for Spain to be playing like this in this game? Because surely the key to winning this game is to not give France the ball.

44:32So they actually need Rodri on the pitch. They need Dani Olmo to be actually keeping the ball. They need Ayatbal to be coming, linking the play. And they need Baena to be going, ah, no, I'm going to go backwards, actually. I'm going to just keep the ball for a bit longer. That's how they're going to beat France, isn't it?

44:46Tom Allnutt: Yeah, you don't want a basketball match against France. You know, if you want to go up and down, they'll beat you. So, I mean, that's what... I mean, I quite like the match-up. Like, I sort of think if Spain can make it a more kind of... a slower game, you know, more of a build-up match where they keep the ball, then I think they've got a good chance. Yeah, because the other point, I take your point on Spain's full-backs, But I think as well, if Lamin-Yemal is peaking and if he delivers in this game, the guy's going up against Luka Dina, which no offence to Luka Dina, he is the weaker link in this France team, surely.

45:14So if he can deliver a moment, I don't know. I've got a feeling Spain are going to win this. I don't know why. I don't necessarily know what it's brought out of. Of course. Maybe it's the sleep deprivation. But I just feel like they are kind of building a momentum to a big, big game performance. And I just wonder whether France might get caught out, might be behind, might be then chasing. But we haven't seen France go behind in a game. Yeah. Okay, so that in itself, you're looking and thinking. I mean, Spain's goal against record is incredible. So they're a team that doesn't concede very many.

45:43So it's really set up for, you know. Thoughts then? Have I lost the plot? Who's going to win this one? France and Spain? I can't see beyond France. I just think they have so many players who are just electric and can just do something that makes your eyes widen in an instant. And they've been doing it. I don't see why they're going to stop now Don't I can't I've never agreed with Gregor so much I can't see I can't see them not scoring and I don't think Spain have got enough to get two against France I just don't but look I agree with everything that's been said it's an incredible matchup it's an elite yeah an elite matchup as we said it could be the final so anyone worried it might be a little bit boring anyone my brother said this to me the other day and I do think it's an interesting question based on what we're saying about how Spain play, how they'll approach this game.

46:34We're just going to, you know, it'll be 60, like, because we all thought Spain-Portugal was going to be a great game and that was one of the worst of the tournament so far. I thought France-Morocco too. Yeah. And I mean, you do wonder are these big games, when they're waiting, the tension does come down as to like, oh God, I don't want to give anything away. But we'll be at 60 minutes all looking at each other going, a bit dull this, a bit dull this time.

46:55Tom Allnutt: Well, I mean, that's what the France beating Morocco, like, in comparison to kind of Just everything has felt so epic. And France beating Morocco was like Man City beating Fulham 2-0 on an average Premier League weekend. I thought, lads, this is a World Cup quarterfinal. And they literally just sort of were shaking hands at the end. Just strutting about, walking about. England and Argentina are like, oh, my God, we're on our feet. With the Wonderwall and everything. And I was like, look at how France are doing it. They're just sort of, you know, on to the next one, boys. In my head, I was like, is it because they're so in control and they're so sort of comfortable in this tournament that basically they're just better than everyone else?

47:30Tom Allnutt: but I also was wondering like yeah it'd be interesting to see if they go behind or if they get ruffled a little bit because I think Tony's point is a good one they have been completely unrattled so far is there another weak point I'm picking out Magnon in gold maybe not no he hasn't produced many saves has he really no no can't think of a weak point Gregor's just like Gregor just I think blazes and they start thinking about Michael Alise and then just drifts off we'll let you talk about Alise shall we talk about Alise have we done that enough Saliba's had us and it's well Salinas play with a cigar I thought you're right the fullbacks but Koundy's been really good I think he's actually been good going forward and he's been playing high and wide it's been a lot of surprises for the France team they're really bold in an attacking sense it might be different in this game so I would have come into it and thought Koundy and Dinia we even looked at midfield but actually Rabiot I think Rabiot had a good tournament he's the one who's playing the forward passes and Kony or Juwameni around them are both great athletes and good ball winners.

48:35There are not many weaknesses in this team at all. Tom, how about you? Got your prediction?

48:39Tom Allnutt: At the start of Stormont, I think I predicted Spain, but mainly just because everyone else was predicting France. It felt more interesting. I think Spain have been a little bit less good than I thought and I think France have been a bit better than I thought. I'm going to stick with Spain. They're going through, right? It's hard to argue against France. It's really exciting, isn't it? Two brilliant semifinals, poised fantastically. Two very different semifinals, I think we will see. Leads me on to kind of a question about this World Cup. And I mentioned it at the start. Have we got the semifinals that everyone expected and everyone wanted?

49:11I've obviously loved this World Cup. I feel like I've lived a lot of it, you know, in my living room on my own, losing the plot a lot of the time, ranting and raving to myself in the dark. But it has been, in my opinion, absolutely fantastic footballing-wise in terms of the stories that we've got. me and Gregor aren't the only ones who've fallen in love with Kate Verde the whole world did loads of other great stories as well loads of emergence of new players that you've not seen before and we now have really elite semi-finals it's been the best World Cup ever in my opinion in my lifetime not just as a fan but as a journalist thoughts best World Cup ever Tom?

49:46Tom Allnutt: yes I think it's been a really good one I think in terms of the consuming for here I think the kick-off times you can't get away from it Tom you've seen every single match because you're a nutter. You're a weirdo, yeah. Committed to my job is another way of looking at it. But yeah, thanks. I think a lot of people would have found this tournament to be a sort of a tournament of takes almost. People are listening to it on podcasts. They're seeing it on social media. They're watching the highlights. Whether or not everyone has really been able to engage in it, immerse themselves in it like you have, I wonder about that.

50:17I think that's absolutely true. I think me engaging with friends and listeners and readers and things, it's been so striking to know at the moment when, oh, like, you all get it now. You all get it because you've all seen it. And it's maybe because the game was on at 6pm. They've finally seen it. You know, Ecuador was a great example of when they beat Germany. Everyone was like, Ecuador are amazing. And I was there rocking in my chair going, they weren't very good against Curacao. But that's a great example. And I think that's probably a big takeaway for a separate podcast about general sports consumption, that if you want something to break through, it needs to be on BBC or ITV at 8pm.

50:49But, Gregor, you've been a little bit of a nutter like me. You've probably stayed up later than some people back in this country. Greatest World Cup ever? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely been as good as Qatar, if not better. But what Qatar had was the best final of all time. And we're not finished yet. So as you said, you know, we're talking about these nip and tuck semifinals. It's important how it finishes. You don't want it to be ruined by VAR. What would make it then? What would we have? What do we think would make it the best? Because you agree that was the greatest final ever. I realise I'm sitting here beside three Englishmen and an Irishman maybe.

51:26It'd be France winning it and playing joyous football. For me, that would be... France beating Argentina, the Mbappe revenge, which is what I joke about. I'd be happy with it being England. That's fine, no problem. But France fulfilling them, their potential and all the talent because they're the best team by a mile. A mile. I look back and he is a little boy. You've been at a couple of World Cups. Yeah, I've been a lot. I'm obviously biased to them World Cups. But when I... My very first experience at the World Cup was an eight-year-old boy that watched the Brazilians in my granddad's, who's Italian, in the Elephant and Castle in London, and throwing literally everything at the telly as Brazil battered Italy.

52:07You were or your granddad was? No, my granddad was. And I remember laughing and thinking, it's funny, how angry he got. You know, but... And that was my first real standout moment as a young boy. But I thought the 78 World Cup was great. The 82 World Cup was great. 86 was obviously an incredible tournament with Maradona and Argentina. Then I played 90, which was incredible. 90 was special, wasn't it? Terrible final. I was only one at the time. And I think a lot of listeners would be like, you're forgetting 90 with Gaza and tears and all that kind of drama. And Ireland's story as well. Yeah, us as well, being there and what we achieved, getting to the quarterfinals.

52:46but the final stunk the house out you know it just did if it had been a great final I think most people without a doubt would have gone the 90th World Cup was one of the best ever but this has really surprised me this World Cup I've loved it and we should say as much as we've all criticised FIFA and the expansion and there's maybe more expansion part of it has been the stories that have been thrown up the unexpected ones the discovery all that stuff because we've said it a few times over the course of the tournament that's been lost a little bit in modern football You see everything around the world.

53:16You don't talk about the discovery of players who nick a move off the back of a tournament. It doesn't happen anymore. So that's going to be lost. But we've found it again a little bit, particularly with these guys.

53:28Tom Allnutt: The third place thing is, you get the fairy tales, but you lose the jeopardy. And I do think the first couple of weeks, or whatever it was, three weeks of the groups, it was lovely having all these stories. But ultimately for the big teams, it was all a bit of a non-event, in my opinion. and you have to now, unfortunately, you have to go to the 64 because you have to bring back that symmetry and also bring back the sense of tension in the groups. I think the one thing this World Cup has missed, if I'm honest, apart from Germany, it's just a kind of an implosion. A big team getting knocked out early, either in the groups.

54:00Tom Allnutt: Yearning for an implosion. It has to be, I don't know, you need something in the groups that goes out. Well, Portugal would have been that in previous years, wouldn't it, with their group when they draw that game and then that Colombia game when they should have lost in that final group game, they're actually hanging on in that game. But maybe in their group, you would have had Portugal and Ronaldo and Vitinha crashing out in the group stage. Or Spain, who drew their opening game. And everyone sort of shrugged their shoulders because it doesn't matter at all. But you have to bring back that sense that even the big teams, if you don't start quickly, you can go home.

54:28Tom Allnutt: You know, and that was a big problem with the groups. I do think the element of kind of the stars in this tournament has been fantastic. On X and things, you saw those kind of like videos. It was, oh, look back in 2006, and there was Shevchenko, and there was Rivalda and there was Zidane and there was Ronaldinho and everyone said, what happened to those days? In 20 years' time, people will go back and say, look at that 2026 World Cup when there was Messi and there was Mbappe and Haaland and Kane and Belli and, you know, and Lisa. And people will say, what a tournament that was. Is there a bit of an omission that people just don't like it because it's America and some of the politics that have got involved has sort of caused it to not like it so much?

55:02Is there a bit of that? And also, we went into it so upset about some of how it had been set up and the ticket prices and everything like that. But I think if we just, Just focus on football. One final word. It reminds me, this World Cup, of the days when the FA Cup was great and everyone, you know, the fairy tale of the FA Cup. It felt like this tournament's been a bit of a fairy tale FA Cup sort of story. Yeah. The little teams haven't got through, but they've upset a few along the way. Yeah. Maybe the only shock left is England winning the trophy. We're going to be dishing out some end of World Cup awards between now and next week.

55:34And I wanted to dish out the first one, which is the Tony Cascarino Award for Cult Icon. as the man is in the room with me, just pick out some of our favourite moments, players, managers that have produced something that is just so joyous. I actually think as a starter, if he wasn't one of the best strikers in the world, I think Erling Haaland could genuinely be. I am so excited for his pivot to be in the media. Don't go anything in after you finish playing. It'll be his own media though. Yeah, I don't care. I don't care. That's absolutely fantastic.

56:01Tom Allnutt: You've left the Norway social media this time. It's been so good. It's so joyous. It's like therapeutic when I've had a really long night. They put lovely little plinky-plonky music behind it. I don't know what they're saying because they're going, you should have fed it and all that kind of not got a clue. But let's finish because producer Neil is telling me to hurry up because I could talk about the World Cup forever. Our awards for cult icons at this World Cup. Oh, do you want me to go first? My cult icon is going to be the Portuguese goalkeeper. I had to put up with all that rubbish in front of him while he produced save after save in a million times.

56:32They'd have been out at group stage. They would have. So I'm going Costa. Costa. Iago Costa with me, my icon. He was the best player by a country mile. Yeah. Tom? Javier Guirre.

56:41Tom Allnutt: Yeah. I don't know if it's a joyous moment, but Telly Anthony calling to F off. And then laughing. The laugh is absolutely... I mean, that meme will just carry on. Oh, it's so, so good. Yeah, he's definitely up there. Craig? It could be any one of these guys, really. It could be any one of the boys, but we've got more awards to dish out, so let's not... I'd go for Julian Quinones, the Mexico winger. I really didn't know anything about him, to be honest. He played in Mexico his whole career until I think 2024 moved to Saudi scored four goals that goal against Ecuador in particular and he looked like I was saying I thought he had like kind of silver in his teeth and he was looking like quite a menacing kind of character but then I've since had a look and he's just got braces he looks like a really nice guy actually he's got very cool braces the Paraguayan player who kept fouling everyone Galazzo Galazzo that was the one Galazzo we ruled him out he had called Icon He's gone up until that first hydration break against France and then he went way, way, way past the line into just complete tosser.

57:40Anyway. You? Hey? Yes. Oh, I've got too many. It could just do loads and loads. It could be Erling Haaland. I think Mikel Moreno, honestly, what an absolute cult legend he is. Dan Byrne. Dan Byrne. It could be Dan Byrne, couldn't it, really? I mean, you go out into the tournament, every England fan joking, like, is this how it's going to be? Got Dan Byrne coming off the bench, heading balls clear. Yeah, that's exactly how it's going to be. So we'll see whether that happens against Argentina. My actual cult hero, Imam Ashur for Egypt. He scored two goals and it was one of my favourite moments. He scored their opening goal against Belgium after 20 minutes and he does the strut celebration down in front of the camera and he's doing it and he's thinking, this is the best moment of my life.

58:19And then his teammate runs up behind him and shoves him right on the floor and they all pile on top of him. It's like that kind of moment where you think, I am the absolute God's gift here and then your mates come and ruin it. Wonderful, wonderful, joyous moment. and there have been so many and there will be so many more to come, I'm sure. But thank you very much to Tony Cascarino, Gregor Robertson and Tom Ornut for joining me on this daily episode of our World Cup shows. We'll be back with another one tomorrow. We'll see you then.