WORLD CUP DAY 33: Why Mbappe is a great captain

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. This is day 33 and it's time for some more semi-final preview. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm joined today by the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel. Martin, we're going to talk about France, Spain and a brilliant column from you on Kylian Mbappe in part two, but we have to start with England. we're going to look forward of course to that huge semi-final with Argentina but I wanted to start by looking back to that game with Norway as ever it's great to chat to you and the guys in the camp and at the tournament a couple of days after we've had some bit of time to reflect we've had a couple of podcasts between full-time and now people reflecting on that performance brilliance again from Jude Bellingham but again England not fully convincing as Stephen the manager highlighted and we'll come on to that in a sec.

0:55But just your experienced take on that performance. Is it all about grit and mentality in Bellingham? Are you starting to see positive signs elsewhere? Yeah, well, it's certainly all about Bellingham. It's certainly all about Bellingham because this is one of the great World Cup performances by any player from any country, really. I mean, you're looking at benchmarks and you go, right, OK, Paul Gascoigne in 1990. Paul didn't score a goal in that tournament. I mean, he had a brilliant, brilliant World Cup. We came away from there thinking we might even have the best player in the world, or certainly the best player in the world coming through.

1:34But he wasn't a goal-scoring midfielder at that World Cup, and he got booked at a vital moment and was going to miss the final. It had England got there, which they didn't, but he would have missed it, whereas Bellingham was on a booking in the quarterfinal, didn't get booked, didn't look as if he was playing at all within himself in managing not to get booked and now cannot be suspended for any of England's matches here unless he was to get sent off in the semi-final. So I think he is in front of that performance. So then you're going back and you're probably going back to Bobby Charlton maybe or you're certainly going back to 66 and you can pull a performance out from that team.

2:21yeah so I think that's where you're that's where you're going and that is then the cherry on the cake and the cake is very very strong mentality that England have got that Thomas Tuchel has worked very hard to foster that part of it has certainly been successful so that's a winning combination I fancy us against Argentina I think we're better seen than Argentina I might be proving wrong I don't think we're better than France and I think Spain are quite cussed and are quite difficult so I think us and Spain would be an interesting final were we to get there I think we've got to work our way against France Yeah well let's we'll talk about Argentina in just a second I just wanted to ask you about a piece of yours that's on the Times website now we're recording this Monday evening talking about Jude Bellingham and Thomas Tuchel and Tuchel's comments after this game, praising that mentality that we've just discussed and quite rightly too, but still it seems not satisfied with his England team overall.

3:28Praising Bellingham, praising Kane, but not quite satisfied with what he's seen. Myself and the chaps and Gregor back in the studio on yesterday's show were discussing that is this part of the club manager mentality coming into the international game, wanting something that maybe you can't get from international football. You've written in this piece, Talking about great to hear and be quite punchy, but it's a big old gamble when you've got to a semi-final, isn't it? In terms of maybe disrupting some harmony. Well, look, I don't think you're going to lose the team, put it like that. I don't think you're going to, you know, players aren't going to check out a World Cup semi-final.

4:04They're really not. So I don't think there's any danger of that, but it is high risk. It is high risk because obviously if the game's turning and he's shouting and hollering from the touchline, There comes a stage where if everyone's a little bit ticked off, where they're just like, oh, what? Shut up, why don't you give it a rest? You know, and so that's what I was alluding to. It's quite a high-risk strategy. That's why managers very seldom do it. And, you know, I mentioned Alex Ferguson in the piece, and then you get, you know, someone quotes some, you know, one match at Aberdeen, you know, in the cup final where he did it.

4:40Yeah, it was at Aberdeen. funnily enough Alex Ferguson he matured from Aberdeen as well and took Manchester United to levels that no one had taken Manchester United to before and you never saw him do that again you never ever saw him do that again he coated every he coated everyone else after after matches didn't he Ferguson rather than coat any of his players behind closed doors he coated the players absolutely you know the famous hair everyone talks about the hairdryer hairdryer was never for the public the hair dryer what he said to those players it was never in the public uh domain that's that's what that's what he did Steve Bruce tells a fabulous story about uh Alex and in uh Istanbul the first Galatasaray game and when it all kicks off in the tunnel and with the Turkish police and everything like that and Ferguson they will fight him basically with the police Brian Mobson in classic Brian Mobson style manages to pull his hand back to give someone a right hand to catch it on a hook or something like that and injures himself in the fight.

5:41Ferguson comes out of the dressing room, like literally taking his jacket off to get involved and gets involved. And then when they return to the dressing room, shuts the door and he says, right, and he's got ties around there and everything. And Steve says that he's gone, right, none of my players have been fighting, have they? None of my players. You've seen it out there. none of my players have been fighting. Everyone's gone, no, boss, none of us have been fighting. Right, that's where it stays. And that was it, you know. Steve said that as one, the dressing room thought, he'll do for us, yeah, right, this fellow, this is our guy.

6:20So there's a lot to be said for shutting that door. One of the stories I told in the piece was about Graham Taylor but managing to lose the England squad in one ill-advised comment after they drew in Poland in 1993. England never won in Poland. We didn't play well against Poland at all. But the result was we got away with it. We got away with a one-all draw. If he'd have said what he said in public, just in private, the players accept that. And then he goes out in public and he says, we all know we can play better, but a draw in Poland, we'll take that. We're on to the next one, etc., etc. and i know this sounds a terrible thing for journalists to say that you want bland quotes i'm not saying what i want what i wanted was graham taylor to come in and call them all headless chickens which is what he did but what he should have done was a load of bland quotes and call them all headless chickens behind closed doors and then we wouldn't have gone to norway four days later and got beat 2-0 yeah it is interesting isn't it the kind of balance of it all you know you do see such a different manager to what we're used to with gareth southgate and things in the last couple of years fascinating watching on the telly with the hydration breaks he's barking at every single one of them after 20 minutes of running themselves into the ground isn't he it's i mean some people will like it i'm sure there are lots of listeners out there who love it yeah yeah i like it you know you like that about him you like the engagement you like that that commitment and i like the high standards of it i really do like the high standards of it however it's you know that's all i said that's all i said in the piece really it's a bold move he's a bold manager but it carries a risk and and it always has done yeah and it all and that's not that's not an attack on that's not having a go at tucall but it does carry a risk yeah he's always been that sort of manager and that would have been priced in uh when the fa appointed him but there is always that risk yeah you know bellingham's reaction which i didn't think was that bad I did you know whatever or you know he said that sort of struggle or whatever I can see that you can't create this idea of oh we want a band of brothers want a brotherhood or whatever and then not and then be surprised if Bellingham sticks up for his team yes which is all he's doing there he's all he's doing is we've we've done two hours in this they're the worst conditions the hottest match I've ever been to for an England.

8:51Right. Without a doubt. Right, well. You know, and I'm there for what now, nearly 30 odd years now. So I wasn't in Mexico in 1970, but I was in Mexico this time. This was far worse than the conditions in Mexico. I wouldn't have talked about altitude and stuff like that. Harry Kane said it straight afterwards. This was much worse than Mexico. Yeah. It was really, really exceptional. so I can understand why the players would feel a little bit more protective of one another certainly in the heat of the moment certainly having just walked off the pitch you know they couldn't have given any more of those guys I'm not saying everyone played well and I'm not even saying that the team played well for the two hours because they certainly didn't the second half Norway were much the better team but I thought we were better in extra time yeah um first half is you know 55 45 or whatever but i can understand why if you're bellingham you feel you feel protective towards those players yeah absolutely almost a gregor robertson both things can be true tucall can have a pop and bellingham can defend himself yeah yeah yeah never live in a world where there won't be a row absolutely i mean we're all grown-ups yeah absolutely well let's let's let's move on to that argentina game you've you've mentioned in a previous answer that you you You think England can win this game.

10:09What is it about that makes you say that, having followed both teams, seeing England at first hand? Is it the star quality? Is it the spirit? What is it that makes you think, going into this game, England can get to the final? Well, I think we're a better team than Argentina, as long as we play well. I keep saying you can't win the World Cup unless you play well. You can start late in doing that. You can certainly start late, but in the end, there's going to be a match where, unless you play well, you go out. And I think if England play well, they're a better team than Argentina. Both teams are getting by on mentality and spirit.

10:53I think both teams have got exceptional talismanic players. England in Bellingham and Kane, obviously. but Bellingham, if we're comparing tens and tens, and obviously Argentina and Messi. And they're both players that can shape games to their will when they're really at their best. So I don't think we're three goals better than Argentina or whatever, I might be surprised, but I don't think we are. I think it could be tight. But I think if England turn up, there is a good team there. My only concern is in that first 11, there are a lot of guys that are now carrying injuries. There's a lot of guys that look as if they've had a long, long season.

11:44Oh, the Arsenal contingent, for instance. You wonder about that. You wonder about that, about fatigue element. You know, two hours in that heat in Miami, that's tough. Yeah. That's really tough. and I think we prepared for it, England prepared for it but I don't think anything really prepares you for it and once you've done it, I don't know how much prep you can do that means that has no effect. Yeah, absolutely, it'll be a tight and tense battle, that's for sure. Martin, we're going to take a little break but listen, stay with us. After this we'll be talking about France against Spain.

12:35welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times these are our daily world cup shows with me tom clark and on today's episode i've got our chief correspondent martin samuel with me now martin we've talked england argentina but there's a big game first tonight france against spain you're going to be there we'll talk about the match in a second but first I wanted to talk about Kylian Mbappe and a piece that you'd written on the Times website in the last couple of days talking about the French captain's maturity and how he handles off-field situations and what particularly impressed you about his demeanor just tell the listeners a little bit about it yeah well it was about the way he handled the racist attack that he received from a Paraguay politician after Farnsley played Paraguay and it's the way he rises to that challenger every single time the way he's not scared to talk about those issues the black players for france those guys get an awful lot you know negative attention there's a lot of a lot of it that is very very wrong even from their own country within their own country there's the rise of the far right there they are in party and in a world in which you know football is often told i'll stick to football easy you know stick to football you know all that nonsense about Gareth Southgate, Gareth Wokegate and all of this rubbish.

13:55I admire Mbappé, the way he never shies away from it, the way that he never is anything less than a spokesman for that team, for his players, for his community. The way he's also so strong, so patriotic about playing for the French team and about what the French team should mean to the French people. because they can't sort of outwrite him, if you know what I mean. They can't sort of go, oh, you know, our patriotism is, because there's nobody more patriotic about France than Mbappe. And you even see the way he plays at a tournament like this. And if you're Real Madrid, you're looking at that and thinking, yeah, I'm not sure he was quite as good as his France this season or whatever.

14:40I don't know. It could just be the way, you know, it could just be that he's got three guys around him that absolutely are just the perfect foils for him. But I very much admire him. I very much admire the way he carries himself. I think he's a great captain. I really do. I think he's a great captain and a great leader and a great role model in terms of showing the country what he can achieve if everyone's on the same side. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that role model became evident as well in the Paraguay game as well, dealing with some of those incidents on the pitch. I think I said it at the time chatting with Gregor Robertson.

15:18Show that to any kid. If you're the better player and you're being kicked, that's how you act. You get up, you laugh in their face and then score the winner. That's the perfect response. Yeah, absolutely. There was a brilliant, there was a brilliant, there was a, sorry, Tom, there was a brilliant, it was on Fox out here, so you might not have seen it, Thierry Henry talking about Messi and talking about how you react and how people react and everything. and he said in training, he said, you know, you'd be playing a game in training and Messi might be on the other team and someone would, you know, he thinks he's been fouled or kicked or whatever and he's appealing to the manager or the coach or whoever's taking the match.

16:01Yeah, that was a foul, that was a foul. No, it's not given, not given. He said, you know, one game or whatever. They said to him, you're not going to get every foul you want in a match, Lionel. You've just got to get on with it. You know, that's what you have to do. get on with it he said you just saw a change in him he said just in his eyes he said you just saw a change he said and we start the game again and he gets the ball scores and then we start the game he gets the ball again scores he said we start again gets the ball scores he said and in the end the team were going next time he wants a foul just give him the foul just give him the free kick you know because this is not worth it.

16:45This is not worth it. You know, and those great players, that's what they, you know, they've got that certain ability to just change, to just arrive. Belling's got it for him. Kane's got it for him as well. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we'll see if Kylian Mbappe can deliver. How are you viewing this game, Martin? As I say, you're going to be there for the Times reporting on it. We were chatting with Tom Allnut and Gregor and Tony on yesterday's show. I was maybe mischievously suggesting that it might be a bit of one of these boring games between two very, very good teams who maybe keep the ball a lot and we might be at 70 minutes with it, but Neil-Nil going, I thought this was meant to be a thriller.

17:21I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Well, no, you can get that. And it's also the best attack versus the best defence. Exactly, exactly. So you will get a degree of cancer in each other. Yeah. It will be very interesting because it will be very interesting to see if, one, how France handle a player like Jamal because they were denied the opportunity to face Haaland. So you've seen France against good teams. You haven't seen them yet against one of those teams that have got, you know, one of those players, shall we say, one of those players. So it'll be interesting to see how they handle Jamal and handle Spain's ability to counter-attack and the way they kick the ball.

18:11But again, it then will be very interesting to see Spain's defence tested by that forward line because that presents a challenge that no one has been able to handle yet. No one else has quite got to grips with the net yet. So I'm looking forward to the game. I'm very much looking forward to that. Yeah, it should be thrilling. Just a final question, Martin. on this French team. We talk so much about the experience of the Times team and how World Cups that you've covered. Just thinking about the pitch for these four semi-finalists, we've talked about England and Argentina being quite a tight game between two teams who've got stars but with weak points as well.

18:53Is there a gap between France and Spain? Are France that much far ahead from what you've seen so far? Are they one of the best teams you've ever seen at a World Cup so far? well they're certainly one of the best forward lines yeah i think france are ahead of uh of everything at this tournament if there's a way to build it there's a way to destroy it so spain i think will be interesting against them spain because you've got to have a great defense against against france you've got to because otherwise one of those guys is going to kill you yeah and maybe more that's that's what i'm interested to see because if they if they can beat Spain, I can't see the winners of the other semi-final stopping them.

19:38And I think we've got quite lucky in terms of the tournament with the semi-finals, because I think maybe if France and Spain were split up between the two semi-finals, we would feel a lot more certain of where we're going in the final. I think, you know, with all respect to England and Argentina, I think we'd be looking at that going, oh, they'll beat them and they'll beat them, you know, and France and Spain meet in the final. Whereas now there's a random factor because England and Argentina is a very, very random game. You know, very hot-blooded, very, you know, lots of history, lots of animosity, lots of talent on both teams, lots of flaws in both teams as well.

20:22So that could be anything. And then France versus Spain, because it is the best attack versus the best defense, is an arm wrestler as well. So I think that's good for the tournament. You can't odds it at the moment, really, apart from my own personal belief that France is the best team here, which I thought going into the tournament. And I certainly think I've seen no reason to come off it at the moment, none at all. Martin Samuel, you will be there reporting on France against Spain for the Times website. You can read Martin's report not long after full time. Martin, thank you very much for joining me as always.

21:07Thank you too for listening. We'll be back tomorrow with reaction to France against Spain and even more preview to England v Argentina. We'll see you then.