WORLD CUP DAY 34: Will it be England or Argentina to play 'brilliant' Spain?

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1:13final let's do it on today's show i'll chat to paul hurst in the argentina camp and in part two i'll chat to gregor robertson about a brilliant spain being a dismal france but first it's time to speak to our man in the england camp our chief football correspondent and football journalist of the year johnny northcroft uh johnny for the most up-to-date news we're recording this part last we've just seen spain beat france now i hate to be that english bloke getting carried away but England are winning the World Cup now, as far as I'm concerned. You're coming to us live from just outside the press room.

1:49You're about to hear from Thomas Tuchel in a second. What is the mood like over there? What's the mood like in the England camp? Yes, it's pretty excited. It really feels like this is the business end, to use a cliche. Tuchel's spoken about how he feels there's been a step-changing mood, even since Norway. I think when you get into the final week of the tournament, really brings home to the achievement of a team because suddenly there's no games. It's only three games left and the team you're covering is actually playing in two of them. So amazing, amazing really just to think that there was an era where England didn't get anywhere near these occasions and now this is about four semifinals in five tournaments and an incredible prize to shoot for a World Cup final.

2:37Yeah, an incredible achievement from you and Matt and Hamza as well of course Johnny for still being there and Martin Samuel as well and Paul Hurst still out on the ground for the Times team and obviously we're about to hear you are sorry about to hear from Thomas Tuchel but we've got you know some guidance from you what's the latest in the camp should England be worried England fans still be worried about Declan Rice obviously this could be overtaken but it'd be silly of me not to ask you what the latest is on fitness injuries and things like that yeah look as far as we know at the moment it's good news on Declan Rice he has got over his stomach bug he's back to close to 100 % and I expect him to play all of England's players trained today except of course for Jordan Henderson I'm actually sitting outside the press conference room here in the Atlanta stadium waiting for Thomas Tuchel to take the stage he's about half an hour late so there might be some different news when he sits down but as far as we're aware of right now things are looking good He's half an hour late digesting that Spain performance against France him and his coaching staff Anthony Barry going what what happened there that was amazing we might have a different plan if we get past Argentina and Johnny you've written a brilliant preview to this game which has been used as the cover to the game supplement that we've been doing in the print pages for the Times it's quite a strikingly different tone to what you've seen from the Argentina camp we're going to hear from Paul Hurst just after you but we've seen on the Times website Paul Hurst reporting about all the players watching clips of Maradona and things from down the years.

4:09The message, however, from England is, this is just another game. Is that right? It is. It is. There's been a difference in mood from Tuchel. I've been used to, during this tournament, seeing him use his press conferences or use his statements to kind of, I don't know, put some energy into things. Really kind of, you know, be brave already, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. His similar message has been in a much more muted way and what's interesting is he didn't he doesn't really want to talk about the big the big sort of picture of you know win a game like this and you become a legend he doesn't want to talk too much about Messi you know almost sacrilege but when asked you know is Messi the greatest he went he's one of the best you know it was quite he was asked about um you know previous uh World Cup semi-finals that England had been involved in and he kind of pretended he didn't really know about them even though one was against Germany, which he's literally stood there and talked to us about with glowing enthusiasm in a mixed zone in Serbia.

5:11So all of it was designed to just, let's just move away from any of the kind of hype and momentousness. Let's not think about making history. Let's not think about the past fears. Let's not get overwhelmed thinking about how great Messi is and focus on this as a game of football. And I think that's the right strategy because when you look at it just as a game of football, without the emotion and the baggage, England win-win winner. Do you think that's wise though in terms of England's tournament so far? Because one of the team things they've done so well and it was discussed after the Norway win is the spirit and grit and desire, determination.

5:47You know, we've got these players like Jed Spence who starts off footballing-wise not being great but actually having these cameos that are about last-ditch tackles and the spirit of the Azteca. Is it right for him to dial that down? Do you think it's the right approach you just mentioned there? Why do you think that's going to work against Argentina? Is it because they will bring so much of it that England need to dial theirs down? Yeah, look, I think it is. There is an element that he's trusting his players, right? Because Argentina will come at England with passion and they'll come at England with a few sort of streetwise arts.

6:19And he's trusting his players, I think, to be able to handle all that. But you have to say, given what you've seen them come through in the Azteca and against Norway, and even in the game against Congo, I think it's right to trust that mentally, psychologically, they will be OK for this game. And I think what he might be banking on is if England can keep this as a proper football contest, it may even be the Argentinians who have a problem with emotion. You know, I mean, every time Romero plays, that's always a possibility for him, for example. I think it's entirely right, actually. haven't we admired the German teams over the years for being so kind of you know taking big games in the stride being efficient and now there's a German manager trying to take the same approach so yeah maybe he's on to something So what you're saying to me Johnny is that we're expecting Jude Bellingham or Harry Kane to be slotting in the second and just strutting past Romero and Martinez and giving them a little wink as Argentina are getting wound up that's the vision you're selling me here Johnny I'm excited Yeah, something like that.

7:23It's never going to be that simple, is it? I mean, look, I make England slight favourites for this game. I think they've just got a better all-round team. The thing that, you know, when you're trying to analyse football, when you've written a lot about big games, this is different because of Messi. It's just so difficult to quantify what he might bring in a game like this. So that's, of course, the thing at the back of your mind, that you're like, yeah, I could be a bit logical about it England have got better players, then Messi can just defy logic and we've seen him do that so many times but I do make England slight favourites I don't think it will be easy we haven't had penalties so far it might be a time that they end up in that situation but I come back to the fact that if you've got Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham against what Lissandro Martinez and Christian Romero you would take that and if you've got the legs of Rice and Anderson in midfield against Argentinas, you know, the McAllisters and Paredes.

8:24I think you'd take that. And it's only really the how you handle Messi and Julian Alvarez to an extent that makes me worried. Yeah, really interesting, Johnny. We'll let you go in just a second. I wanted to ask you, you've covered so many tournaments. You've been our England man for a good couple of tournaments now. You've seen Gareth Southgate in these big moments. Does this feel different? And is that because of Thomas Tuchel? No, I wouldn't say so, to be fair to Gareth. the Euro24 was a bit of an anomaly where it was the first time I think we saw Gareth crack and show pressure and strain and actually what I do remember is that once he got to the final week it was like a burden had come off and he was back to being Gareth but he was always pretty good at framing things he was pretty good in the run up to the Euro2020 final I recall I don't think England failed against Croatia for example because they weren't prepared for the game but I think what you see with Tuchel is a certain expertise of handling games like this.

9:28Champions League finals, he's been in two he has got an air of I wouldn't say detachment actually but just an air of I can do this, you know this is me, I'm Thomas Tuchel, look at me I'm in another final, that's not a surprise to me Do you think that transmits to the players as well? Do you think that gives them the confidence? that actually this is not that big a deal. We can win this World Cup. Look, I think it does, but I also don't think they need it because I think you've got Harry Kane and Jude who are playing for the biggest clubs. You've got the Arsenal boys who've just won the title and equated themselves incredibly well in a Champions League final.

10:07You've got the Man City quotient. So I actually think this is a bit of a different England team as well than we've seen before that is well-equipped to handle all this. My biggest worry, apart from Messi's, is physical. it's just how much have they taken out of themselves with all the travel with the epic games that they've had and that's why I wrote earlier in the week that maybe they need to think of the energy aspect, I don't think Madueki can continue on the right if a Kaiosafi can't start I'd put Morgan Rodgers in just for a bit more legs by energy, that and Messi are my worries can England just go to the well one more time and can they stop this rather good for former Lincoln City legend Morgan Rogers Johnny Northcroft giving me the opportunity to mention my team on a World Cup semi-final preview show Johnny we will let you go Thomas Tuchel will be speaking in just a second you can read what he had to say on the Times website by the time you're listening to this but Johnny just very last thing before you go I'm going to have to ask you for a prediction you've given all the wonderful analysis you've given all the caveats I'm going to need a prediction from you just before you go yeah England win this one I know I mentioned penalties actually from predicting they win at a normal time that's what we like to hear johnny nice and early copy as well for the website and for the paper that's what we want as journalists as well and plenty of time for the people in the pubs to celebrate johnny northcroft thank you very much for joining me you can read johnny's match report on the times website not long after full time and you'll hopefully be able to read it in the print pages as well johnny will speak to you very soon thanks tom well that was the scott in the england camp getting all england fans nice and excited Now it's time to hear from the Englishman in the Argentina camp.

11:48Earlier on, I spoke to Paul Hurst, our football reporter, who has been in the Argentina camp for this whole tournament. He's seen every game. He's really got in with the Argentina journalists. So it's only right that I spoke to him earlier to ask how they're getting on, how their preparations is coming, and how he thinks this game might pan out. This is what he had to say. Paul Hurst, welcome to the biggest game podcast of your time's career, probably. this is all built up to this, Hurstie, the bravest Englishman at the World Cup. You've been embedded with Team Argentina this whole time to come on the show and give us the lowdown, reassure all those England fans out there that England are going to win.

12:27But I mean, how are you? How are the vibes in the Argentina camp? I mean, they're well up for this by the sound of it, aren't they? They are, yeah. I was just joking with one of the press officers after training there because we're only allowed in for like the first 15 minutes of training. and he saw that I was working, I'd gone beyond the 15 minutes I was working, and he came over and he said, yeah, especially you, you're the spy, you get out now. So he was, so yeah, yeah, it's all kind of good natured really. They are up for it. I mean, it's such a huge name. It's, you know, their rivalries, everyone knows about the rivalry, everyone knows about the history, and it's just a huge match for both teams, isn't it?

13:15If Argentina somehow managed to get through to the final, despite not playing very well, it'll be one hell of an achievement. And obviously England haven't played exactly out of their skin either, have they? So it's just one of those of the two scrappers, I guess, that are left in the competition trying to get through to the final. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you just filed some words just before we hit record on this show on Tuesday evening about players talking about watching the hand of God and highlights from down the years and stuff. You know, I've just spoken to Johnny Northcroft. You've got the England camp and Thomas Tuchel going, just another game, lads.

13:54Just keep it calm. Everything composed. Argentina are like, come on, let's do it. Do it for Diego, et cetera. They don't do calm, do they? They don't do calm. Well, I think basically, and this is not a criticism of the Argentinian media, but it is driven by the Argentinian reporters. They openly ask questions of the players about the Falklands, about Maradona. I was in the interview area after the Switzerland game and one of the reporters was asking Flacco Lopez, who is the fourth-choice striker, plays for Palmeiras in Brazil, he's 27, about the Falklands. And there was a grain of relevance there because he came from a town where a lot of people, a lot of soldiers died in the conflict.

14:42But I just thought, come on, this is a bit silly, isn't this? You know, this is 44 years ago or whatever, but it's such a prevalent thing in Argentinian society. Everywhere you go, there's reminders of the Falklands War in Argentina, in their cities. And everywhere you go, there's reminders of Maradona as well. and he was such a big part of that poking the eye for England four years after the Falklands that that just cemented his deity really and so he is, if you look on social media this week, it's been awash with Argentinian fans and journalists talking about 86, talking about Maradona and they were then putting, they put that question to Alexis McAllister today, what do you think about Maradona and what happened in 86.

15:36And he was saying, yeah, we've been watching clips of it. They've been coming up. It's unavoidable, that kind of content on social media. So they've been watching clips. And when you do watch Maradona, you can't help but be inspired by him. Particularly if you're a professional footballer and you're Argentinian. He was just an incredible footballer, wasn't he? So that was what Alexis McAllister was saying. We've all been watching it. He was respectful of the England team. he's something to a lot of top-class players. Even it was put to him that Argentina have got an advantage because they've been in semi-finals before.

16:14And he was saying, well, if you look at people like June Bellinger, he's played in big European matches as well, and Harry Kane as well. So he's very kind of respectful. And I think, well, that's the sort of party line for now. whether it stays that way after half an hour tomorrow we'll see but yeah that's what's happening at the moment Yeah really interesting to hear the Argentinian side of it and how up for it they are in terms of on the field then moving away from the hype and things you're kind of out and about at the minute as we can hear any news from Scaloni in terms of team selection and things you've not managed to trip up Lionel Messi and he's got a little ankle injury or anything like that?

16:56Yeah I tied his shoelaces together before he went out of training. Well, the press conference is later on today. I've just been to training. I've just been in a bar around the corner on the soft drinks, obviously. And just, yeah, everyone was training out in training session. There will be, I think, from what I hear, there will be a change at right back. It's Molina out, Montiel in. But for me, that doesn't really matter. They're very much like-for-like. They're both not very good, in my opinion. Defensively, I'd have been banging on about it, the last few weeks how weak they are at full-back.

17:31There might be a change in midfield as well. He's been playing four central midfielders. He's been playing Paredes, Michaelis, Enzo Fernandez and Rodrigo de Paul as four flat. It's a very flat midfield. Four central midfielders. He's thinking that might not be so dynamic and they might change you up a little bit. One of two or three players, maybe even Giuliano Simeone, which will be interesting because his father Diego has got a little bit of a history with England as well as David Beckham will tell you although they're pals now aren't they and Ezekiel Palacios is another alternative for the right wing he's more he's more solid to be fair and then the other option is Nico Gonzalez not the one who plays for Man City but he's such a he's probably the best player I've seen off the bench he's a very attacking winger so maybe he won't be as kind of stodgy as we've seen from Argentina in the last few years, maybe they'll actually try and use the wings a little bit and try and play a bit of football other than when Messi's on the ball.

18:35So yeah, it'll be an interesting line-up. Really good updates from Hersty there. And as you say, the press conference still to come later. So if you're listening to this and want the absolute latest, go and check the Times website now. Paul will have filed and reported on the news from the press conference. Just before I let you go and get prepped for that press conference, Paul, what's your gut saying? and I understand that you're out and about and in the camp. So if you want to say an Argentina win, but you actually think England, just nod and I'll communicate it to the listeners. Yeah. I was going to say, it's kind of a bit of a...

19:08I genuinely think it's 50-50. I'm not just saying that just to sit on the fence, but I've seen so much of this Argentina team and so much of it just worries me because they've been so rubbish in the last couple of games, but they just managed to get over the line. I just think if England, And a lot of it depends on whether Rice will be fit and whether England got the legs in midfield. Because at full-back, they're so vulnerable at Argentina. If you've got Saka, even at 50-60%, he'll cause them trouble. So, yeah. I might stretch to 51 % England, 49 % Argentina, but that's as far as I'm not, I'm afraid.

19:46That's understandable. I should say to listeners that he has got Christian Romero and Lissandro Martinez just hovering over his shoulder, looking rather menacing. you will be able to see. Fully understandable that Paul's hedging his bets a little bit. Yeah, fully understandable that Hurstie's hedging his bets. Hurstie, I'll let you go and get prepped for that press conference and the big game tomorrow. I'm sure we'll be hearing from you again and you can read Paul's latest news and analysis on the Times website now. Hurstie, whatever happens, just keep your head down and get out of there and do a professional job, all right, mate?

20:16I'll speak to you soon. Yeah, I will do. Right, nice one. Thanks. I'll be here. Well, well, well, listeners. we've got Paul Hurst the Englishman in the Argentina camp thinking England are going to win this semi-final and we've got Johnny Northcroft the Scotsman in the England camp who thinks England are going to win this one and I've decided England are going to win the World Cup partly after seeing that first semi-final and Spain beating France I'm going to talk to Gregor Robertson about that match in part two we'll be back just after this break

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22:12Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined by Gregor Robertson for part two to discuss one of the more remarkable things I think I have seen at this incredible World Cup. France, olayed off the pitch by Spain. not a brilliant game of football but an incredible thing to watch one of the great teams in world cup history we thought this france team were going to be and they just did not deliver in any way shape or form a brilliant performance by spain just before i get the thoughts of you gregor martin samuel was at this game for the times writing on this game you can read his report on the website now this is how it starts good news and bad news for those on the other side of the world cup draw he writes the good news is that France are out the bad is that it transpires there were at least two very good teams knocking around at this tournament yesterday in Dallas that was confirmed France had shown early Spain had not now they have this was a masterclass in cancelling out a potentially superior opponent of playing the game on your terms and most of all of winning it a pretty good summary as ever there Gregor from Martin Samuel at the ground but as I said I can't quite believe what I saw there.

23:28I can't quite believe it in any stretch of the imagination both how good Spain were at cancelling them out and how bad France were. What did you make of it?

23:36Gregor Robertson: Yeah I mean I'll be brutally honest I found myself getting irrationally angry as I watched this match because it just feels like this group of players, this French team will look back with enormous regret at what transpired in the semi-final because they were an absolute shadow of the team that they've been at their best and even when they're not being at their best they were just miles below what they've been at the tournament and what they could be and have been so yeah as I say I found myself getting quite wired up by it and you know as I saw Dembele was abysmal Mbappé like kind of just got petulant towards the end and did very little at least he was miles off it even Dewey when he came on didn't make any impact as he has done in the past the biggest issue for France was that none of their big players showed up or came anywhere near close to showing up and then you add to that the injury to William Saliba who you know it seems might not have been entirely fit Chouameni coming back from injury certainly didn't look fit, he grew into the game a bit in the second half when there was like jeopardy but he didn't look like he was at it Kone came on and just looked like, I don't know he looked lost, he looked disorientated the way that Olmo ran off him in the build up to the second goal was extraordinary the space he had and then you get to Lucadinho who had a pretty dramatic night all things told, I have sympathy for him I have to say with the first goal, partly because my first action in professional football was exactly that a ball kind of in the air and I was playing for Forest against Derby County and Paul Pesco-Salido nipped and poked the ball away and I turned and volleyed it and like it can happen and it was unlucky because he would have had to head the ball clear and the ball didn't have quite enough purchase on it to head it clear so he tried to sort of set himself to volley it clear and Luminum is is so sharp and so rapid that he was punished.

25:49Gregor Robertson: And that just allowed Spain to play their game brilliantly. So, yeah, I mean, I've not said anything about Spain yet, but I can if you want, Tom. I mean, I'm with you, I've got to say slightly, the takeaway is watching that going, when are France going to turn up? When are this France team? I mean, I feel, I'm almost annoyed with you as well. You know, I feel like we've lived this World Cup and anyone who has lived this World Cup has enjoyed this France team so much. and we've talked about them as if they were the pinnacle of footballing excellence and they just were complete toilet. Adrian Rabiot as well.

26:23I was watching it going, ah yeah, there's the guy I thought he was. Before in this tournament I was like, bloody hell, Rabiot looks good all of a sudden. Ah no, that's the guy. That's the guy. And I mean, speaking of Dina, there are reports in the press today that he's been linked with PSG. He'd do well to get in Plymouth's team with a performance like that. He was absolutely honking. I mean, let's talk about Spade.

26:42Gregor Robertson: I mean, he's playing a World Cup semi-final against Lemmy and Jamal. let's cut him a little bit of slack but he was one of the players that you highlighted before the tournament and during that is like a potential weakness or like step down from the stellar kind of cast of players that they have and it turned out to be the difference it did because even in the build up to the second goal he was kind of although Dewey let Poro run off him he was kind of so terrified of Lama that he went out really far to close them down and left a massive channel. Yeah, let's talk about Spain then. Because I think we could both end up into ranting and raving about France here.

27:21I can hear producer Neil, even though he's not even on this call, going, talk about Spain, Tom, talk about Spain. Martin's described it as a masterclass in kind of nullifying your opposition. It was as much that I think the game played to their strengths massively. That midfield three, you know, Rodri, Tom Allnott highlighted quite rightly. I mean, you know, he's a former Ballon d 'Or winner, of course but he's been brilliant this tournament he controlled the game Danny Olmo had an excellent game Fabian Ruiz and you kind of think well actually France can have all these four front players but if they can't get the ball back then there's nothing they can do with it you were talking about before we came on air about France Spain sorry being very good without the ball is

28:00Gregor Robertson: that right is that what won them this game I think so I think you know you clearly when you beat this France team and you beat them quite comfortably they're going to be lauded and praised to the hilt. I think they were absolutely magnificent without the ball in every respect if you go through the team Spain's full backs were brilliant. Poro surprised me. I've always thought that Poro could be someone who the opposition could get at and possibly exploit. I don't think he's a great defender but he defended well in this game Barcola gave him one or two anxious moments in the first half. Barcola was someone who at least tried things but he was brilliant and Cucurello was magnificent he's, God, he's tough isn't he, he's like he's just a pest he's just like a rash, he's all over whoever that moment when Mbappe the ball looked like it was going to break to Mbappe in the box and they might have got a goal back with about 10 minutes to go and he just was there to first of all to kind of body check him and then poke the ball out for a goal kick and anyway shouting vamos and like my God he just did it for 90 minutes he was magnificent I think Laporte was brilliant too he was like had the physicality when it was needed and Kubarsi reads the game brilliantly we've spoken about him, he looks like a little boy he's kind of slight, he's not like a typical centre half but he reads the game brilliantly this is the kind of game he plays in he's playing for Barcelona he's playing in elite level Champions League games, he doesn't need to be the big brawny guy at the back, he's reading the game, it's magnificent and then the two midfielders on front as you said Rodri and Ruiz were just like again I think their biggest strength and the best part of their performance in this game was without the ball, we know they're great we know they can control a game they can just keep things simple and keep the ball I didn't see anything that was that surprising from them in position, just what I saw was no one in a French shirt had a nanosecond of breathing space whenever they were near.

30:11Gregor Robertson: They just, like, whenever they had the ball, someone was on them, and they were physical, and they were in their faces, and that was all over the pitch. So I think the game plan, like, when they chose to press high, they did it brilliantly as a team, as a collective. When they chose to sit in the kind of mid-block, they suffocated them in the middle of the pitch, and when they won the ball back, they did all the things we've spoken about. They kept it really well in that middle third, they kept it at the back I still didn't see that many moments in the game where they were like uber creative at the top end of the pitch it was a moment from Luminiumal or like clearly the second goal was a nice move it was like Poro missed out Oyathapal and it went to the second man for a 1-2 to Olmo and that kind of sent the French defence haywire and it was a good finish but for me Spain won this game because of how brilliant they were out of position It was interesting with some of those players as well you mentioned Kukurea always a player who I think delivers an extra 20 % when playing for his national team I've also never seen a player more appropriately moving to Real Madrid at a time in his career you can just see him winding up a position in his Champions League next season can't you and Rodri as well seeing a more Jose will absolutely love him absolutely Rodri as well seeing a slightly more tenacious side to his game in this tournament and in this game.

31:32A bit more nastier, a bit into tackles a bit more. Maybe he doesn't need to do that for Manchester City as much. But really striking, I thought. Just in those cliches, Spain looked more up for it. That was the other thing as well about France. They just looked completely lost. They seemed to be completely preoccupied with winning free kicks and moaning at the referee. And I'm like, lads, the goal's that way. The goal's down there. You need to get up that end and try and score a goal. I would say on Le Mignemel, there's an interesting trajectory of kind of peaking here, isn't there? We are heading towards a Laminya Mal fully fit and firing for a World Cup final who's been drip-fed into this Spain team, you know, charging in to win that penalty.

32:10Some of his runs, let's be honest, if he'd stayed a smidge, a smidge on side, this would have been 3-0 and we really would have been talking about one of the big shocks at this World Cup. So I think he's a fascinating story when you think about how long this World Cup's been, five and a half weeks by the time we get to the final. Lamin-Yemal not playing in that first game, playing 45 minutes in the next one. Has it actually played perfectly for Spain in terms of them peaking at the right time and finding the right team? Dani Olmo hasn't always been in it. Really, really fascinating game. Credit to Tom Olnutt, we should say, on our big semi-final preview.

32:48He backed Spain and stuck with them, doubled down on them. He's picked them as winners of this tournament before we got going. So brilliant from him. He did so much so that he persuaded me to put it in the Times World Cup newsletter. So I at least look a little bit clever for that one. Another quick word on Spain. Do you know who I am pleased for? Javier Bardem. Because he actually wins. He wins celebrity fan of this tournament. There's been a lot of them. You can tell. They've all trotted out. Brad Pitt was there. Edward Norton was there. They're all in their USA shirts. Not seen since. All the other people have been there.

33:25Javier's been there. He's looked nervous. He's looked focused. He's had his shirt on. I've got a lot of respect for him. Great actor, even better football fan. Congratulations, Javier Bardem from the Game Podcast. And let's get a little bit more off our chest because I think this is a good therapy session. Hopefully, producer Neil will let us off now that we have done a bit of Spain analysis. The other reason I'm upset with France is that this was such an underwhelming semi-final. This semi-final, we talked about, if this had been the final, what a disappointing final it would have been. Everyone talks about, these two teams, it should be the final, it should be fantastic.

34:00Goodness me. I mean, it wasn't quite boring, as I suggested on yesterday's show, but my goodness me, it wasn't great. There were times in that second half where, you know, it looked a little bit like a kind of good Pep Guardiola-Manchester City team playing midweek with a few changes against like a Brighton team who are distracted in the Europa League or something. Like, it was so flat at times. There was a point, I was watching, there was a point with 10 minutes to go where there was no sound in the stadium, no sound on the commentary because the commentators didn't know what to say. And like, the camera was just panning around looking for something to happen.

34:37I was like, guys, it's a World Cup semi-final.

34:40Gregor Robertson: Well, yeah, what I would say is that when you're looking for some kind of sense of a reaction, like, you realise what's at stake here. you're just looking around and it looked like the players were looking around at each other and there was no one really driving the team forward. You look at Mbappe to do that actually in a footballing sense, but there was no one in a sort of traditional sense, I don't know, old-fashioned English sense, sort of just like geeing the lads up, you know? They really didn't see any of that. They didn't see any sort of leadership in a time of need. So, yeah, that was a real surprise.

35:18Gregor Robertson: and another thing that made me irrationally more angry so yeah like so many so many players just miles off it and but I come back to it I think I think given given the tournament they've had given the sense of unity and fraternity as they've talked about like throughout this tournament that's developed it's different to the past there's always been a threat or a bubble, bubbling away a bit of animosity or some sort of tensions or egos or whatever. It doesn't seem to have been the case at all in this. For some reason it just completely blew up in their faces at the end. Yeah. I don't think it was a boring game.

36:06Gregor Robertson: I think it was kind of strangely engrossing. Not what it could have been. Not what it could have been. No, of course. But when France don't perform as they can then that's always going to be the feeling. that feels slightly hard on Spain Spain executed their game plan magnificently but when the best team in the tournament as I said on the previous show by a mile twice and I stand by that when they didn't show up to such an extent then obviously the feeling is going to be a disappointment by the broader public and the neutrals Yeah I just mean from a point of view of the tournament 8pm kick off semi-final the first of two and I think you had a lot of people a lot of people on social media you always follow these games in these ways everyone going oh great early Spain goal that's just what this game needs and actually just completely kind of killed it and we just we got another decent Spain goal and that was about it I think that's where I'm coming from in terms of I thought we might have a 2-2 we might have extra time me and Gregor might be talking about one of the great World Cup games ever I mean not even in the top 10 of this tournament for me brilliant performance by Spain though final question from you is the real reason you're upset the fact that this actually opens the door for England to win the World Cup is that what we're actually getting at here well no I'm not upset of course I'm not upset because of that I'm upset because of France I feel like I became French that's a stupid thing to say Greg I don't say that I'm really getting behind them though I thought you know as I said in the last show like that would be the perfect ending for it would have been the perfect ending for me it's been a brilliant tournament but so often as so often is the case the best team don't win it and Spain have Spain have developed and grown and you know they're so good their defensive record is outstanding they've always got a threat and a danger of of of scoring a goal which when you don't concede is all you'll need and they're on the verge of of something extraordinary like after winning the Euros and winning winning the World Cup which is what they did in the past as well of course and you have to hand it to them.

38:16Gregor Robertson: The game plan was executed absolutely magnificently. So yeah, from the England point of view, I still would say, despite what we've just watched, England or Argentina, whoever gets to the final will be pleased to be playing Spain ahead of France because of what we've seen up until now. Yeah, really interesting. There you go, England fans. It's a tantalising prospect there. Gregor Robertson, remember, in the big semi-final preview, said England are going to smash Argentina. So therefore, that means he thinks England can win the World Cup, essentially what he just said. I didn't do great in this game for a prediction, did I?

38:51Gregor Robertson: So maybe don't listen to me. Just very quickly, a final thought on Lamin-Yamal, who has just turned 19, by the way. And if he were to win the World Cup, would mean he'd be a 19-year-old with three La Liga titles, a Copa del Rey, a European Championship, and a World Cup winner's medal by 19. Honestly, unbelievable. what an idea of a life that is we will leave it there Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me as always during this tournament thank you too to Johnny Northcroft and Paul Hurst for part one getting us revved up and excited for England v Argentina we will be back tomorrow to discuss that game and maybe just maybe England will be in a World Cup final we'll see you then

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