WORLD CUP DAY 35: England throw it away as Tuchel loses nerve

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0:57again. I'm Tom Clark and I am absolutely fuming listeners but thankfully I'm joined by the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson for some of the best analysis as usual. We'll find out if they're fuming in a minute too although I'm not sure Gregor will be but let's first hear from one of the Times team at the ground. Our chief football correspondent Johnny Northcroft sent me these thoughts at full time? Well, same old story for England. I'm heading down from the media tribune to the next zone where I expect to see some pretty devastated and exhausted English faces.

1:36You can hear the Argentina fans celebrating in the background. It's 60 years, of course, since England have been able to celebrate being in a World Cup final. And you think something has to change something has to change in the english approach to maybe football in general that might be too deep but certainly these big tournament matches the very biggest tournament matches if uh if history is going to be reversed um after going ahead in what was a i thought until that point a really feisty but even quite thrilling physical game it was there for england they scored a great goal it was there but they took a step back we've seen it before we saw it in the Euro 2020 final when they scored earlier we saw against Croatia in the 2018 World Cup semi-final Thomas Tuco was supposed to be different but on this occasion he fell into the old English or England football trunk of trying to hold on as Harry Kane said it's not enough to hold on you have to dominate the ball, you have to try and control games, you have to offer more to get over the line than just that incredible endeavour and spirit that we've seen the team.

2:56At one point, just before Argentina equalised, England had six defenders, six defenders on the pitch, three midfielders and Harry Kane. Six defenders, big Dan Burn on, Esri Conzal all to try and repel crosses I guess from the box. Argentine equalise and then how do they win the game from across? It's not enough to hold on. England have to do more. It's the same story.

3:32That's all I've got to say. The Argentina fans now are just walking out most of them wearing messy shirts and my goodness there's no point even talking about Messi how can you talk about Messi I didn't feel even did that much until he had to do something and he did it and that's why he is who he is on to the next one Alison it was there says Johnny he's not wrong is he? no he's not wrong it felt an even game and weirdly it felt an even game until England scored and then I tell you what happened Thomas Tuchel lost his nerve he has spent the whole tournament talking down I feel England's technical ability he has indicated he feels England have not given him what he wanted in every single match and even when they have it's not been for the full 90 minutes it's as though he feels like he inherited a team and he's slightly surprised by what is possible with them and that they'd gone as far as they could go when they scored.

4:43He did not trust them to keep going in that pattern. He'd watched Argentina be a team that are there for the full quota of minutes, whether it's extra time or not. And he was deferential to them. He was fearful about it. So instead of taking the goal as a means of really puncturing Argentina's spirit. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? Instead, he turned it into something that brought to mind Charlton v Chelsea in the FA Cup. It was like, this is as good as it gets for my group of lads. Throw on the defence. Throw on the defenders. Bolster the defence. be very passive. And the other thing I'd like to say is that isn't necessarily a terrible ploy if you're ahead, but you've got to make Argentina feel like a little bit worried about them committing men forward.

5:43You know, where were the outlets? Where was the danger on the break? Where was the potential for a counterattack? It was not there. So I would say my summary would be Thomas Tuchel lost his nerve. Gregor thoughts yeah but I mean

5:59Gregor Robertson: like I'm generally not someone who like takes pleasure or thinks it's always fair to see the England sort of general idea of like assassinating managers when they crash out of a tournament but I feel like it is deserved on this occasion I think that I was watching the game and like it was I found it extraordinary to see Harry Kane basically defending like 10 yards outside his own box and he was supposed to be the man furthest forward and this was about 60 minutes. I thought it was extraordinary and I also found it extraordinary that he ended the game with Dan Byrne up front. Like that should probably be the motif of this World Cup.

6:46Gregor Robertson: Like Dan Byrne was great. People had made jokes about it when he was picked. People had said it. I might have even said it. That's how this tournament ends with long punts being launched to Dan Byrne aimlessly and that's how it did with Esri Konza trying to whip crosses in and failing to beat the first man anyway sorry carry on we kind of joked about it when he talked about he wanted to tap into the English English psyche, English football, English heritage, the Premier League but he tapped into the 90s like it's that's the truth like I just saw his interview on TV and he was asked if you've ever seen Thomas Tuchel's England at this World Cup the England that you wanted to that you wanted this team to look like and he just sort of mumbled and fluffed through it and the answer is no like the answer is no we saw it for maybe 30 minutes against Croatia let's be generous a half against Croatia you were really good and it was exciting and we in fairness we all came on we were quite excited we thought this could be fun and then you were heroic against Mexico for a whole variety of reasons but otherwise you'd been deeply average and like this isn't sort of wise after the event that's that's the truth and and the best team won like they undoubtedly did and we can you know the first seems like aeons ago because it was so bitty and argentina were trying to make it such a attritional affair and then when they got when they realized they had to do something and england allowed them a bit of space they looked like a hell of a team and they deservedly won that's the other frustration for me I think is that watching all these games I don't understand how you can have been a part of an elite coaching setup and scouted Argentina and had that response to going 1-0 up having watched the games against Cape Verde and Egypt and Switzerland and thought right now we need to just sit deep bring Dan Byrne on and go five at the back and give them the ball I don't know how you can have watched Argentina in this tournament and thought that truly truly staggering managerial approach and an indictment on his squad picks as well because again Cobby Mayne who stays sat on the bench not played a single minute of football Jordan Henderson with his broken arm you'd have given anything to have Adam Wharton any midfielder who could come on and play alongside Elliot Anderson if once Declan Rice goes off truly staggering I couldn't believe what I was seeing everyone in some people in the office were going haha way Dan Burns coming on brilliant here we go and I was thinking what we're the better team here why is this happening why is this the way we are trying to approach this game against Argentina truly staggering, sorry Gregor No, no, you're right, you're right there's like, I don't know it also seems extraordinary to me now that you know, you hired a German on 5 million a year to try and take you back in time that's what it feels like to me watching it and look there's clearly like, we haven't seen what he wanted England to be, he wanted them to be incisive and the goal sort of summed that up.

9:41Gregor Robertson: They did it a couple of times. Harry Kane drops deep and it gives the opposition a conundrum. It creates space because someone follows him. He played the ball over the top to Morgan Rogers. Great ball. Great run from Anthony Gordon. Goal. That's what you wanted to see. You wanted to see those fast incisive attacks. We haven't seen many of them. And then what else? All you've had apart from that is defending your own box when the opposition have any wind in their sails. so like there was no sense of control almost at any point of this tournament and look as we're having this conversation we should acknowledge that that's actually true of a lot of teams, it's been true of Argentina, it's been true of a lot of teams have been moments teams I don't know, just to cede that much control and territory and you know you weren't playing against Mexico, you weren't playing against Norway, you were playing against Argentina the world champions and to do that you say it's half an hour to go, it's not, it's 40 minutes you say Dan Byrne came on in the 82nd minute that's not 8 minutes to go, these days that's 20 minutes with Dan Byrne on the pitch and I'm not having a go at Dan Byrne but like it's just bizarre and even like the whole, sorry I'm ranting here, but the whole kind of the idea that, again referencing his interview where he was saying there were too many spaces were too passive like let's go to a back 5 that just throws relationships on the pitch out of kilter and like Nico Riley comes on and I don't know what he was left midfield.

11:12Gregor Robertson: Yeah. Spencer's out to wing back. It's like the relationships between guys who had defended well and yeah they might have been getting a bit tired and leggy and they might have needed help but to throw all that kind of into haywire was I think it was a mistake. It wasn't like the Mexico game. You ran down to 10 men. You had to do more when you had the ball. Absolutely huge relief to hear the Scott on the podcast ranting and raving as well. It makes me feel the damn site better. I'm talking about my crap scouting report on Argentina. Let's get something from the man who has been literally in the Argentina camp the whole time.

11:45Paul Hurst, our football reporter, has been with Argentina the whole time. We chatted to him for this preview show. He talked about what to expect. He sent me these thoughts after full time as well. Well, bloody hell. What an ending to a match that was. Just walking down the ramp to the press room now. Walking through all the fans. Just seeing some and shirtless Argentinian fans running through shouting vamos, and they are absolutely ecstatic, and I can understand why. Because for most of this match, certainly in the second half, they were on the back foot, they were 1-0 behind, but I think I said this to you, Tom, yesterday, it only takes a crowd to get behind them, to really energise them and push them over the line when they're behind, when they're not in front, when they're struggling, and that's exactly what happened today.

12:37England just played into their hands, played five at the back with ten minutes to go plus added time and it was just Argentina had more of the ball, the crowd really got behind them, Messi had more of the ball than he had ever had in the other part of the match previously and he just invited Argentina on. They got more and more confident as the match went on and for me it wasn't a surprise that they ended up winning it. It was a very sad way for it to end for England. But if you're going to end a game like that, then you're just asking for trouble. But yeah, as for Messi, the last dance is still going on.

13:20It's on to New York for him. Another two assists tonight. He's either assisted or scored a goal in every match in this tournament, which is an incredible feat at 39 years old. so fair play to him another example of Argentina digging out a win which is what you need to do sometimes if you're going to win tournaments you don't have to be the best necessarily you just have to get over the line and they've done that now for for four matches in a row I'm losing my voice so I better go but yeah another successful night for Argentina and a pretty embarrassing one certainly in the way it ended for England Alison, before me and Gregor take away this podcast and turn it into some kind of therapy session, Hurstie there talking about some of the things Gregor's outlined, playing into Argentina's hands.

14:13This is exactly what they seem to want. It was an extraordinary game in that sense. You highlighted it in your first answer that actually it was almost like the worst thing England did was score a goal. Yeah, no, I mean, sometimes these shifts in momentum and the change from being aggressive to passive can be quite subtle. But this was like a caricature of that. It was unbelievable to watch. It was like an axe in Game of Thrones. It was, you know, this was brutal stuff. This was, please, please, let us just hang on. And yet, as you've alluded to, Tom, it was completely illogical because if there's been one team at this tournament that can work the ball in tight spaces, that are not put off by a deep defence, that have someone like Lionel Messi who can wriggle his way past two defenders.

15:14I mean, for the first goal, the Enzo Fernandes goal, Messi, he draws two England players to him, leaving the space available for the shot. This is the odd thing. It handed the initiative. It was pretty much an even game before then. England stood up quite well, I think, to the physicality and the niggliness of Argentina and were giving as good as they got. And, you know, there was no disparity in the yellow cards or the free kicks. It felt like a 50-50 challenge in those terms. But as you say, Tom, scoring the goal, I mean, what are we saying here? Are we saying that Thomas Tuchel was astonished that England scored so early?

15:55I mean, was he hoping that goal would come in the 91st minute? because he acted as if the goal had been scored in the 91st minute. Yeah, and as you said earlier with your kind of very funny analogy about what type of teams this was, I was watching it thinking this is absolutely perfect. 55 minutes, 1-0 up. Now Argentina have got to come out to show some bravery and composure that we showed in the first half. Elliot Anderson, I thought, was terrific as he's been all tournament. It was absolutely superb in midfield. I think if he's there, we could even bring on Rashford later on. we can win this 2-0.

16:29I just, it's absolutely baffling to me. We're talking about these changes that he made. We should just say as well, really interesting if listeners didn't see it, Harry Kane on the pitch afterwards saying, once we went 1-0 up, we just tried to hold on, which at this level is not enough. Wayne Rooney, as you say, Greg, agreeing saying that if you're on that pitch and you see those changes the manager is making, you lose belief in him. There's only so many times you can get away with it. I mean, what do we think should have been the approach instead? I mean my thought was as I say we should be looking to try and counter attack Alison you outline wears an outlet I did wonder about the fact you said Gregor Harry Kane fantastic player I'm not talking about him dropping deep or anything but I did wonder what like Ollie Watkins very experienced player striker running behind they've got two centre backs on yellow cards thoughts on alternatives to the Dan Byrne Esri Konza five at the back I don't

17:22Gregor Robertson: I don't think you had to go to five at the back the main thing you had to still have was an outlet. It's not all about the formation and the team and the personnel. It's about saying to Harry Kane or whoever's, somebody needs to stay up the pitch. Somebody needs to be, every time we were punting it clear, somebody needs to be in the vicinity. At least. It was just extraordinary that it was accepted from roughly the 60th minute that every single player on the pitch was going to defend the box. Like it was, it was, it was flabbergasting. So I don't think, I don't think it is all about the personnel and, and, you know, clearly, clearly having six defenders on the pitch as Johnny outlined is, is ludicrous.

18:11Gregor Robertson: And also like, just from the point of view that if you do concede a goal, you've got to go into extra time and still play this game, like, and, and have, have these players on the pitch. so I was astonished by it it really was it was coming because you think about Pickford's save low to his right then McAllister heading against the post momentum was coming Pickford in both halves was asking for the drinks break it was bizarre this thing that we've kind of flambasted and you saw him like to the ref doing the drinky drinky sign he was desperate to get particularly in the second half, desperate to get in and kind of, I don't know, get a breather.

18:54Gregor Robertson: It didn't work. Just the wave after wave just kept coming. Alison, you're known for a bold tactical thought. What do you reckon? What would you do? Well, no, it's around the 96th minute when England were pushing forward and doing the long ball thing and being a bit desperate. At that point, Argentina still had at least one player high up the pitch to make England worried. They made Pickford have to worry about where he placed the ball. So you have to have, what you have to do is have at least one player on the pitch who concerns the goalkeeper, who concerns the back four. This was a team that was meant to be built on physicality and pace and relentlessness.

19:40And yet it was as though there was this assumption that we would be too tired, England would be too tired to play that tactic. And you can, there's nothing wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong per se with going defensive when you've taken the lead. But you can be clever about it and you can have the out ball. You can think, well, who have we got with pace? Who can we can lump it to when we clear? There was nobody there. And the fact that Argentina, even when they were winning, still had somebody loitering further up the pitch in those situations. it was just staggering, staggeringly it was inept.

20:21Yeah, Gregor, on this idea of what the players might think, a lot has been made and Johnny Northcroft made this point in the preview show with me yesterday when he suggested that England would win and one of the reasons was that they have a lot of big players in the squad now. It's not just about potential. Harry Kane has won titles with Bayern Munich and gone deep in the Champions League. Jude Bellingham has won titles with Real Madrid and gone deep in the Champions League. Arsenal players now as well. You've got Chelsea players in there who've won Champions Leagues. What does it say? What about that psychology of a player being on a pitch and seeing those substitutions?

20:54You know, it doesn't matter what level. I know you're always very disparaging of the level that you played at, but it's the same thing, isn't it? You look across and you see who's coming on and the manager's approach. Will that have mentally affected some of those big players? Because all of a sudden, you had Jude Bellingham and Harry Kane and Morgan Rodgers, who I thought was excellent until the goal, shrinking into themselves because of what was going on around them, didn't you?

21:16Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I mean, to an extent. I suppose that there is a different sort of context in this team in that they've kind of done it in the last two games. Like, not all the time. In Norway, the sort of momentum or the dynamic shifted a bit in extra time after he took the lead. But you've had to kind of, it's been like attritional and gritty and all these things, the resilience, that's all the things they've been praised for more than actually footballing qualities. It's been sort of individuals, it's been built on individuals and then resilience. So I think because it's a World Cup semi-final I understand what Wayne Rooney was alluding to saying that you're kind of I don't think you would lose faith at the manager, I feel like you would just probably think we've done this before, we're going to do try our best to do it again but like ultimately kane will has already reflected on it saying that we need to do more and that like even when even when alice is talking there about having someone with pace up front or you know and someone that makes a an out ball like in any way threatening that's not that's not control that's not what you're getting getting towards the existential stuff that we were talking about after the ghana game here this this more about it's time gregor they're out of the world cup cue in the existentials here we bloody go this is it this is what England fans do best all my mates are walking out the pub the existentials have started buddy this is it this is it we're in the therapy session we're going to take a quick break we'll be back with more therapy in just a second

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23:47Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows and this is also the England therapy session crashing out of the World Cup again to Argentina. Had loads of great analysis from Gregor Robertson, Alison Rudd, we've also heard from Paul Hurst and Johnny Northcroft in the ground. I just wanted to start part two by reading out the intro from Martin Samuel's piece on the Times website now. It reads, Anyone who doesn't jump is an Englishman, the Argentinians sing. Anyone who knows how to hold a lead in a World Cup semi-final most certainly is not.

24:18It happened again, the heartbreak of defeat from the portals of glory, undone by two sublime crosses from Lionel Messi, but also by a problem of our own making. It's a theme. It seems to be a theme. This was the fear Thomas Tuchel was supposed to cure, but managers are pragmatists. They play the odds. He's not so different to Gareth Southgate. Argentina chased England sought only to survive Argentina won and that ladies and gentlemen is my way of getting in a mention for Gareth Southgate and attributing it to Martin Samuel thank you very much to the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times for that one Alison it is a good point though isn't it about managers and it happening again in terms of statistics as well I've got an interesting one here that does link to my pal Gareth there are just two occasions of a team scoring first in the semi-final but not reaching the final of the FIFA World Cup in the 21st century.

25:10Both of them are England, Croatia in 2018 and Argentina in 2026. Says it all really, doesn't it? You know what? I'd turn it on its head slightly and I would say this performance against Argentina proved why you shouldn't have an overseas coach in charge of the England team because it really did feel like Thomas Tuchel and it felt like this all the way through but you couldn't really say it because the results were going England's way. But this performance showed to me he came in, didn't like what he saw, didn't like what England comprised, didn't like when he got to tournament conditions and had them all to himself.

25:50He didn't like how his coaching methods and camaraderie building sessions translated onto the pitch. and rather than be this genius we thought we'd spent a lot of money on importing to cure Englishness instead we got someone who gave up on it because they haven't they have it's not part of their psyche it's not part of him and he just washed his hands of it and thought well I'll just throw on loads of defenders and see what happens so it was almost as if it was when it really mattered. It was worse that it was an overseas coach because he didn't have anything to tap into. I honestly do feel he's been quite dismissive all the way through.

26:34And I think it's been shrugged off as, oh, that's just mind games. He's just making sure England go into the next game as the underdog, or he's trying to give the impression that the momentum is with England and they're going to grow with each fixture. It's not felt like that to me. It's felt like he's genuinely not liked what he's seen and felt that he's been limited in what he can impose on England because there is let's go existential there is no Englishness there is no template for you to tap into as an overseas coach yeah I mean I mean he tapped into what there is of Englishness what there was in his squad I was just going to say kind of Alison's answer we'll start talking about squad again and I really will be rocking in my chair going crazy because it feels like a long six weeks since we were doing that but sorry Greg go on tap carry on with that English

27:21Gregor Robertson: I just mean it like although we didn't really see it he was trying to make the Premier League flesh in international football that was the Premier League is a global phenomenon it's not like it's not really English football that's another problem you have so and as I say we didn't really see that we saw he wanted them to be even Anthony Barry at half time in this game referenced that we want to see our Premier League strength and physicality, he said. That's what he said. I don't know, is that really something to build a kind of philosophy for the team around? Just play a few passes, lad. At least he was candid about it.

28:01Gregor Robertson: That's what he said he wanted to do. Just play a few passes. Be a bit braver on the ball. I mean, Cape Verde did it. Egypt did it. Switzerland did it until they went down to 10 men. England just didn't seem to bother. They went 1-0 up and thought they had to give the ball back. It was honestly staggering. I can't believe it. This Argentina team, anyone who's watched them throughout this tournament, play quick passes, play on the transition, play through the lines. Perfect opportunity to do that at 1-0. That's where my frustration stems from. A lot of people go, listen, it's a World Cup semi-final.

28:27It was there for the taking. The match was there for the taking. Just very quickly, we are giving Thomas Tuchel a right kicking, and deservedly so, in my opinion. But any players let themselves down in this game? I would start by saying absolutely not. I can't really think of any off the top of my head. You've had brilliant tournaments from Bellingham and Kane. As I said already, I thought Elliot Anderson was magnificent in this game. Jed Spence again cult hero status basically secured with that tackle on Simeone Jordan Pickford good save very good save I would say at 1-0 we're starting to get ready the heroics on the Times pages for those two moments John Stones I thought was brilliant a lot of players out on their feet anyone think they let themselves down in this semi-final Greg or Alison?

29:07Gregor Robertson: I don't think anyone let themselves down the winner was conceded Martinez was unmarked between Stones and Eje Konse and John Stones is probably the man who should be marking him. He saw a concert waving his arms afterwards. But I get, as I said, as I referenced, when you make so many changes, particularly at the back, those sort of relationships and distances and all those things are thrown out. They go haywire. So I would almost lay that more at Tuchel's door as well. Tuchel's definitely getting a kick in. I would go as far as to say, I don't know if he can come back from this. I'm not sure if he can come back from this as England manager because if you actually want to pan out and look at not just this tournament as a whole but his entire tenure like everyone references a Serbia game where he won 5-0 like and I know there weren't many great opponents in his run up to the World Cup and a 45 minutes against Croatia and that's it and a heroic night in Mexico and as Martin Samuel always referenced throughout throughout it will be until we won't know how good England are until the quarter finals or whatever and he was about right and like I don't know, I don't think anything I don't think anything has changed I don't think England look any better than they were under Southgate I don't think, could you just imagine if Gareth Southgate had been the manager tonight and this had happened could you imagine get in we're all on board i'm not even having to say it martin samuel saying it gregor robertson saying it everyone's thinking it honestly this is completely with you i completely with you this is a point to ask though tommy what's it like what's the headline tomorrow what what what do you think the the reaction do you think reaction is going to be as coruscating as us the times reaction will always be measured and analytical as ever gregor but the back page of tomorrow's paper currently we always change them between editions but the first edition went with the back page headline, same old story, which were the words I used in my intro, which does allude to the idea that this man was brought in to change these moments.

31:16This is what he was. 55 minutes, 1-0 up, Argentina, World Cup semi-final, very ageing Argentina team. This is your moment. This is your manager. I think it's always quite instructive on these nights as well to feel the kind of mood around, you know, everyone talks about it. You've got your WhatsApp groups with your pals. It's always very instructive to watch these former England stars on the punditry you've got Wayne Rooney absolutely going for them Joe Hart and Mika Richards in less I would say less stern fashion than Wayne Rooney but I would agree I think it's quite interesting to be at this point because I think for English fans and the English media the hunger and thirst to get that trophy to get to a World Cup final and as Johnny Northcroft said it was there that's the point and that's where any manager lives or dies I don't think he will go I don't think there will be that much further around it but Alison what do you think you've been doing this longer than me it's simple to say to look at the the pattern of the game and the substitutions that were made and how passive and scared England looked and to say that was it but I also feel I don't think Tuchel managed over the whole of the tournament I don't think he managed the squad very well forget who he should have brought and didn't bring okay he didn't bring player like Wharton, which would have been invaluable, I think.

32:34But you could see quite early on against Argentina, for example, that Declan Rice looked shattered. Whatever's been going on with him, illness, hamstring, whatever, he was really having to run through treacle a bit there. But he was, you know, squeezed as though, you know, it has to be him, even if he's not fully fit. Rhys James, I don't think, and you know, again, he went off injured because he's not fully match fit, I don't think. And he has his favourites and he's pushing people. So the sum total of the effort was one of not being in peak condition. And I don't think you can say, ah, well, you know, what we all predicted at the start was England won't make the final because of just how strenuous Premier League action is.

33:23And they'll all be sapped of energy and they won't cope with the conditions. They don't do very well in the summer because they're just exhausted. but you know there are Premier League stars in all the other teams as well look at Enzo Fernandes looked like he was you know it's been on holiday for six months it was it it's about who you squeeze who you don't squeeze it's understanding your team it's I just felt he had his favorites and he was going to squeeze as much out of them as he could I I don't think people are going to look back on this experiment of having a German manager and think weren't we clever they're going I think that was a huge misstep.

34:02Yeah. Interestingly, just talking about, you know, sports desks around the country, one of my colleagues, Charlie, on the sports desk, picking out an excellent Thomas Tuchel quote from March 2025, not long after getting the job, speaking about Gareth Southgate's time in charge of England and England at previous tournaments. He said, they were afraid to drop out of the tournament, in my observation, rather than having the excitement and hunger to win it. Tommy can I put that quote back to your son at 55 minutes because I can tell you we've got the statistical data to prove it we have these match momentum graphics and there's that goal for Anthony Gordon in the 55th minute and then it all swings Argentina's way let's try and do a quick bit of perspective uh just before we get back into existentials and wrap up this very very good therapy session I'm feeling better already thank you both very much um Argentina then Gregor lots people and some people both on my social medias and listeners who were already emailing in saying Tom look Argentina better team I think England made them the better team but they've done it again haven't they Gregor they face Spain now in this final it'll be fascinating matchup I actually am struggling to think of a more perfect opposition than Spain to play this Argentina side but listen I've been wrong before and they might find a way to win your thoughts on the final and this Argentina performance doing it again yeah I mean the first half they were they were borderline

35:22Gregor Robertson: disgrace let's be honest about it it was extraordinary we were nearly on paraguay levels paraguay levels simeone my goodness and also like just the the kind of vision of either emmy martinez as a goalkeeper or paredes as center midfielder just standing on the ball and like waiting for england to press when they weren't going to press it was just like come on guys what are you doing but when they had to do something and when like the jeopardy arrived arrived it was you saw like I said it before when Argentina are in the mess Messi drops deeper and deeper and becomes the orchestrator and like just creates overloads everywhere on the pitch and puts in the most delicious crosses from like every single angle and they also like I don't know they just turn up the tempo and they also manage to keep to sustain attacks like they all they just keep the pressure on they keep the foot down and even actually some of the subs i mean you look at the subset that scolone made and you thought you know what what's this otamendi's coming on rodrigo de paul what's he gonna offer gonzalo montiel the right back what's he gonna offer montiel and rodrigo de paul created some brilliant combinations on the right and overloads and just just doubled up and and and then messi would come over and then there's three versus Spence or whatever and just create an opportunity for often DePaul to put in a cross and he put in some great crosses the subs he made really worked and really changed the game and obviously Martinez is another one who came on and scored the winner I don't know watching it, two things you think, why are you playing like that in the first half?

37:09Gregor Robertson: Why do you do it? But it seems like this is just too Argentina-art who they've always been a little bit because when you really want to play football you can play some great football and as I say great little, as Alison said the way that Messi wriggles in between two players and they play little cute little 1-2s in a round day apparently box it was great they were brilliant for the last half hour I imagine they will play exactly the same in the first half against Spain in the final and it'll be an absolute it'll be dire to watch um and then who knows if they take the lead it'll still be dire to watch if they don't then we'll see our team turn up yeah plenty more analysis to come in the coming days I'm wearing my Cape Verde shirt now I might be off to buy a Spain shirt tomorrow though for the upcoming game podcasts Alison there will be more debrief as well on England it's fascinating actually to think in terms of Thomas Tuchel and this playing squad they've got a France they've got France in a third fourth place playoff there's no get on the plane there's no go on holiday they're still there for a couple of days it's very interesting because they've got to keep talking they've got to keep facing the press they've got to keep facing the music and then they've got to face an angry Kylian Mbappe but Alison I just wanted to ask you a final question we've all been here before it's not just the same old story for this England team and for England fans it's the same old story for us I'm sat in a room on the level you know on the sports on the times desk floor talking to you about another England you know disappointment Johnny mentioned it in his voice note is there something cultural that almost needs to change about England?

38:43I just wanted to get your thoughts on that because I will be asking Johnny and Matt and Martin Samuel about it in the coming days. We've proved that change the manager, it doesn't change. Is there something systemic? Is there something deep-rooted in the heart of English football that causes these moments? Well, in all my years, so there's a lot of them actually. I've never really felt I knew what being English in football terms was to be honest other than characteristics. That's why you always end up supporting Norway and Denmark that's why. Exactly because I can I look I do search for teams that have an identity so there's the obvious stuff with England which is physicality and passion and long balls it used to be and we're supposed to have with our artificial pitches come away from that form of football, although I think there are quite a few England fans who quite like that idea of just booting it.

39:43But look at it, I don't know, you can look at Spain and instantly you can just tell who they are and you know in the final they won't change who they are and they'll play pretty much the same way unless they're behind. They'll throw on Marino in the last sort of 10 minutes or so and maybe tweak it slightly. you sort of know what you're going to get. And because of that, the point is because of that, the players look very calm, very comfortable, very together, and they're a unit. They're almost homogenous. And you see one, it looks just like the next one. Whereas with England, because there's no obvious sense of English footballing identity, tactical on-the-pitch identity I'm talking about, you inevitably see a group of individuals.

40:31And when you see a group of individuals and you think, well, you know, his market value is X million, his market value is the most expensive player in the world. They don't, but they don't, they don't become, they don't coalesce to become something beautiful and irresistible and mesmeric because they are always playing as individuals trying to be whatever the manager of the time wants them to be. there's nothing there for the manager to work with really of any substance because as we've seen with Tuchel he he thought he could impose himself on on a vacuum and you you can't do that vacuum is a vacuum so there's no hope actually oh goodness me there's a there's a note to end on

41:20Gregor Robertson: Gregor save us I mean Tuchel's Tuchel's presence Tuchel's employment is evidence that there's a cultural problem the fact that you had to hire a german coach like i'm sorry that's evidence in itself that there's a problem you've become i think behind france probably the most prolific producer of talent now and certainly in europe but possibly in the world like the all the money that's been plowed into premier league academies and to youth development it's working you have some outstanding talent, but there's still not a central core idea in how an England team should play. I mean, you've tried to kind of steal bits and bobs from other nations over the years, and then you've hired a German to try and turn you into a more English version of England.

42:12Gregor Robertson: It's bizarre. So I wouldn't say there's no hope because you have, as I'll say it again, you have some of the best players in the world. but you have a long way to go before you find a kind of identity I think and look I realise you don't need to hear that from a Scotsman we've got no identity either apart from people shouting Braveheart or whatever so you're not the only ones No identity the wheels have officially come off the Game Boy Podcast World Cup shows we'll leave it there Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too to Johnny Northcroft and Paul Hurst for their insights from the ground we'll be hearing more from johnny and the england camp in the coming days for more debrief so do get in your questions or thoughts to me tom.clark at the times.co.uk we'll be back with another show tomorrow i'm off for a drink see you later quick question when was the last time a display ad changed your mind now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved.

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