WORLD CUP DAY 36: England Defeat Debrief

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1:41Hello and welcome to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. So, have we all calmed down yet? Still angry? Or still mulling it all over? This is day 36 of our daily World Cup shows and this is day 2 of the England Defeat Debrief. I'm Tom Clarke and on today's show we're going to hear from some of the biggest voices on the game podcast about that World Cup semi-final defeat against Argentina. First up we've got our Chief Sports Correspondent Matt Lawton, he's got the latest on Thomas Tuchel's future. In part two, we've got our chief correspondent, Martin Samuel. He's offering his thoughts on the game, Argentina's strength and the Football Association.

2:23And we're also going to hear from you, the listeners, as loads of you have been in touch with your views. But first up, let's hear from Matt Lawton, who had the latest on Choukou's future. And he explained to me why he believes England fans deserve an explanation from the coach. Matt great to have you with us again on the game podcast during this tournament not as enjoyable circumstances it has to be said this is your eighth world cup you've seen a lot of England heartbreak before we've had a big response to both the podcast and all the articles we've had online lots of people kind of agreeing with our slant from the podcast that a lot of this blame lies with Thomas Tuchel some quite rightly I would say maybe pointing us into the direction of the fact that Argentina are world champions what's your view we're recording this not quite 24 hours after full-time.

3:11What's your reflections on the game itself? Yeah, it's still one of frustration. I still think it was unwise to think that you could basically give Argentina and in particular Lionel Messi the ball for half an hour and think that you could stop them scoring. It was a pretty foolhardy approach, I thought, which is an opinion I think was pretty much expressed by the players. by ex-players, by ex-managers. I was just watching Alan Pardew do a kind of, you know, technical breakdown for talk sport. Everyone's saying the same thing. And I was in the press conference last night and Tuchel kind of made the point that it's all very well saying England should have kept playing the sort of offensive style that he's been trying to execute in every match.

4:07but he basically said that the players ran out of steam, that they couldn't, they'd stopped, they suddenly were incapable of the sort of one-on-one battles around the pitch, that a combination of, in his words, injuries, illness, fatigue had set in. And it was all very well thinking that, you know, why aren't they playing the way they were in the second half against Croatia? but he basically said they were physically incapable of doing that. And that was the reason that he decided the best option was to send on three defenders in Konza, O 'Reilly and Byrne and then try and win the game that way.

4:51Now, the bit that I really struggle with, and we were talking about this after the Mexico game, was the incredible athleticism of somebody like Anthony Gordon. And bearing in mind, he'd also scored the goal. And because Messi was basically camped in England's half on the right, there was actually a bit of space down that flank. But it was Gordon who took off. And that's the bit I struggle with. So, look, I think my feeling is one of also sadness because I have kind of bought into Tuchel during this tournament. I've been really impressed. I've had the privilege of doing all his pre - and post-match press conferences.

5:36I think he's been very impressive. And prior to last night, he'd been very impressive in his decision-making. So I walked out of the ground last night and I actually ran into, if Times readers remember it, I wrote a piece very early on before the tournament started about these guys that had covered, these fans that had been to the Mexico game in 86, sorry, the Argentina game in 86. I ran into them last night. First time I've seen them. Literally walking along a street and I bumped into Steve Dias, the guy whose ticket, he still had his ticket from 86. And they were just absolutely devastated. These old guys that, as I say, were all there in 86.

6:20They were just devastated. And I think that's the kind of overwhelming feeling. I'm not so much anger because I've seen so much dross from England at major tournaments. It's just one of sadness of a missed opportunity, really. Yeah, I think you speak for a lot of England fans there, Matt. Immediate thoughts turned to Thomas Tuchel and his position and his future. On the podcast yesterday, Gregor Robertson said, didn't know how and why and whether he could come back from this. We obviously soon had a pretty quick answer to that in terms of the FA stance from you with a story on the Times website shortly after full time.

6:57What's the latest thinking on that? Tell listeners what the stance is from the FA on Tuchel and his future. Yeah, so they were very quick last night on and off the record. You know, Mark Bulliam issued his statement thanking Thomas and the players for all their efforts. And it was very quickly made clear to us that he retained their 100 % backing. But what we have to remember here is that Mark Bullingham is slightly protecting his own position here because he's the guy that chose to give Tuchel that contract extinction in advance of the tournament. He did make the point before the tournament started in Kansas City that there are still performance related to clauses.

7:40So it wasn't that England were completely locked in. If they'd gone out in the first round, that they'd be able to sack him on the spot was basically what he was saying. But I think they've moved too soon on that. I don't think they've read the room at this stage. And I've spent this morning firing off a few messages, talking to colleagues, trying to apply a bit of pressure. You know, we've got to head to Miami later. And I think we need a proper chat with Tuchel tomorrow. when he's had a bit of time to reflect, a bit of time to maybe watch the game back, a bit of time to, you know, a bit of painful introspection, really.

8:23And let's see if he is now prepared to accept that he may have made an error. And not only that, that he can learn from that error and does know how to fix it and can give assurances. that if he is to continue and take England into this home Euros in two years, that it won't happen again. And that if they get into a situation where they're playing a Spain or a France in a European Championship semi-final, that it won't happen again. At the same time, I've asked for Mark Bullingham. I would like Mark Bullingham to front up because, again, I'd like to say to him, are you sure that you still stand by this guy after what happened?

9:10Because I think it's a very valid point. I think it's slightly harsh on Gareth Southgate to say he's just another Gareth Southgate. And I'm sure Gareth Southgate was watching that thinking, well, it's not as easy as you thought it was, is it, Thomas? But the fact of the matter is, when it reached that critical point, Tuchel failed. and it's I think it can't simply be the case that they all quietly usher off for their summer holidays without some proper reflection because at the moment there's not been many opportunities to properly dissect this and I don't think it'd be terribly satisfactory if we don't get a proper opportunity to interrogate what happened here in Atlanta before they do disappear because everyone's invested in this the fans that came here in their thousands spent an awful lot of money to be here you know steve the guy i mentioned i know because he he told us for the piece that we did he spent five thousand pounds on tickets uh to get here and he only arrived in mexico now he will get his refund on the final the world cup final ticket because that's how it works you know I just don't think you can just, this is not the same as Russia in 2018, Tom.

10:31This is, yeah, there was an overwhelming sense. Why don't you think? Because 2018 was unexpected, because 2018 followed Iceland in 2016, because Southgate was really only embarking on a rebuild project at that point. you know 2018 happened sooner than planned you know that they went beyond their own expectations this time the expectations were high Tuchel took over a team that had just reached the European Championship final the second one in succession Tuchel inherited a team that just needed to be tweaked and improved to try and avoid the the kind of errors that we did see in that final against Spain that we did see in that final against Italy and that we did see in that semi-final against Croatia.

11:25And when it came to it, you know, the moment of truth, as it were, he made the same mistake. So that's why I think it's a very different, you know, Gareth Southgate went home a hero in 2018. Thomas, sadly, and I am sad about this because there's a lot to like about the man and there's a lot to admire about the man but he is not going home a hero here i think the only way he goes back with his reputation in any way intact is if he actually properly fronts this up it didn't really happen last night we are being english being british we are very polite and very decent so where the argentina press officer ignores everyone in the room except Argentinian press officers.

12:21There was one guy from Bangladesh that got a question last night. Oh, sorry, I should say on the eve of the game. One guy from Bangladesh. Everyone had their hands in the air. Everyone wanted to talk about the Malvinas flag, the banner that came on. And the Argentina press officer just picks all the guys that he knows, right? I'm standing there last night with my hand up the whole time. I want to ask Thomas Tuchel, are you really sure you want to continue? Are you really sure you've still got the players? Are you definitely, you know, right now, as harsh a question as this might feel right now, after that defeat, are you absolutely certain you want to take this team to the Euros?

13:06I never got the opportunity. You know, very few British journalists got the opportunity to ask a question last night. you know and I know Thomas has spoken separately to some of the guys but it's very brief and it's very much in the heat at the moment we need a proper conversation with him when he's had a little bit of time to reflect when he's had time to sit and watch a video of the game with Anthony Barry and his staff and then I think he needs to come and talk to us yeah and unless the FA basically allow that to be very much an England press conference in Miami tomorrow there needs to be something separate so that we can properly interrogate what happened.

13:44Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's what a lot of England fans would like a bit of contrition maybe because also you talk about his reasoning being, oh, well, this squad was out on its feet. The legs weren't there. I would immediately put to him, well, why did you take Jordan Henderson and Kobi Mainu and not play them in midfield? Why not take some midfielders who could actually come on and play next to Elliot Anderson in the final 20 minutes? They're the kind of things you want him to front up about. Matt I'm going to let you go in just a second but the final question to pose this third fourth place playoff does pose really interesting couple of days for England and the FA and Thomas Tuchel you've outlined some of the reasons there is there a world in which the mood music changes if we don't get that those kind of you know explanations from Thomas Tuchel if England fans don't hear that from him if you know the press who are going to be there that you're going to be part of don't hear that from him and if any you know maybe have changed england team get hammered by an angry france does do things turn a little bit it could get worse you know um how motivated either team will be i'm not sure you know if if thomas can find any motivation for his players any source of motivation and he was quite dismissive of the game last night you could sense in what he said last night that he you know he kind of agrees with probably the rest of the world and think it was the most meaningless game of football that no one wants to play and no one certainly wants to cover and I'll be I imagine very few England fans will be there if there's any motivation it's the fact that it would be if if if they did come third and they get a bronze medal around their necks that's the best that England have done since 66 so I think he needs to try and draw that out of the players and convince them that there's something worth fighting for here.

15:32But I think it is more important to front up, Tom. I think if, I think, and I will try and make this point in the conversations I have with the FA today, you'll be making a mistake if you hide because people need a fuller explanation. People need a more deep, you know, If you really do want to maintain this position that England couldn't actually physically do what everyone wanted them to do, then you need to do that having watched the game back and really explain that to us. Really spell it out where the problems were. If you want to do that, then tell us. And maybe you can shed some light on it so that people have a better understanding.

16:21because right now, you know, you'll be leaving an enormous vacuum that will just be filled with criticism if they don't actually talk to us and communicate properly how they feel things played out last night. Yeah, lots of questions to be asked. Nat Lawton will be the man. Asking those important questions on behalf of Times readers and England fans in the coming days, a fascinating short, very end to this World Cup for the FA and Thomas Tuchel. and this England side. Matt Lawton, thank you very much for joining us on the Game Podcast. You can read the latest from Matt in the coming days on the Times website and Matt perhaps will hear from you one more time before the end of this tournament.

17:02Thanks very much. Fascinating stuff from Matt Lawton there. After we recorded that segment, he then later on in the day filed a news story which is on the Times website now. Thomas Tuchel facing review into the England World Cup exit before a detailed assessment of the head coach's performance insiders are said to be sympathetic to his claim that he did not tell the players to abandon their attacking style quite an interesting one there potentially another players v coach situation developing we will see if Thomas Tuchel has his say with Matt Lawton in the coming days Matt will keep you up to date with all the latest so make sure you're following him on social media platforms and on the Times website Now, let's hear from some of you listeners, because loads of you got in touch, and it is so great to hear from you all.

17:50I do always give my email. I do read every single message that comes in, and so I thought it was nice to share some of your opinions. It's nothing like a bit of England heartbreak to get the opinions flowing. Kevin was in touch to say, Tom, you asked any of the players to blame, and then you listed and praised some of them for effort they put in. That's right, I did, Kevin, yep. Kevin then goes on to say fine but effort isn't enough for praise or not to be criticised the reality is that England were dropping deep to defend straight after the goal where was the leadership why was Kane not pointing out the need for an outball why was there no goalkeeper or central defender telling them to push up why were the midfielders not encouraging pressing from the front yes Tuchel had a drinks break and the opportunity to fix it instead made it worse by removing Gordon the only natural out-ball player on the pitch, but why do England not produce leaders on the pitch itself?

18:43We do have a football culture, Kevin says, and that is to fear losing what we have instead of ensuring we keep it and go for even more. You can tell it's a culture because it subsumes every England manager, regardless of where they were born. Punchy stuff there from Kevin. Andrew's in touch. He says, I feel Tuchel has been living off his performance at Chelsea in his one full season at Bayern Munich he failed to win the title Tuchel can't continue he failed England and he failed the players Mike says cheer up lads it's only England reverting to the mean you're old enough to remember that Rodney Marsh Stan Bowles and Alan Hudson got 16 caps between them in the 1970s while Paul Maidley got 24 and England failed to qualify for both 74 and 78 World Cups in the 1990s David Batty got 42 caps while Letizia got 8 and no 94 World Cup I should just say, Mike, I do not remember that grim period in the 70s.

19:39And I'd probably say that I've taken David Batty on the pitch in that game against Argentina. But I do take your point. This is what we are used to. A bit of fun from Trevor Bettany here. He says, Tom, the solution is clear. Bazball. Replace Tuchel with Brendan McCollum. I mean, it's an option. It's definitely an option. Listen, we've had some tough times in the England camps, both in cricket and football. Trevor goes on to say, I was approaching my third birthday when England beat West Germany in 1966. I should be grateful that I will have, perhaps subconsciously, witnessed one soccer ball World Cup triumph in my lifetime.

20:17Now, that was great to hear from all of you lot. We've got a few more comments after the break, as well as the thoughts of Martin Samuel. Stick with us. We'll be back just after this.

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21:24Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows and we are deep in the England defeat debrief. We've already heard from Matt Lawton and some of you listeners out there. We're going to hear from Martin Samuel in just a second, but I wanted to start with Graham, who is an England fan in Tampa. He got in touch to say, Tom, I've watched the second half again and concluded that Tuchel wasn't the problem. It was just Argentina. After conceding the goal against England, Argentina went into a 3-1-6 formation and England could not manage with all the normal players.

22:00Tuchel kept his formation until the water break and only then switched to 5-4-1. By that time, England were already cooked. Towards the final 15 minutes, Messi tends to drift to an almost midfield role. Gregor Robertson pointed this out, of course. It's a pattern. So Tuchel countered with Nico O 'Reilly. Not a bad choice, but it goes to show that there's only so much a coach can do. at the end it's the players who win the games keep your head up he says and keep doing those therapy sessions i think we might and i think there might be a few listeners out there who need to keep going as well he said i wasn't going to listen this morning but i decided to and i'm happy i did well excellent graham i'm delighted to hear it but an interesting point on the argentinian brilliance as graham says that is one of the thoughts i discussed with martin samuel when we had a catch-up after the game fair to say martin had plenty to say martin great to have you with us on the show not quite 24 hours on from another heartbreaking night for england you've seen a few in your time did this one feel any different or was it the fact that it was so similar that's the problem for thomas tuchel yeah yeah it that is that's part of the problem i don't And, you know, when people say, oh, how do you feel or whatever, I can honestly say I've never tied my happiness to the fate of any team that I follow or would like to win a football match.

23:21Because you can't. You can't rely on 11 guys kicking a ball about to make you happy. You've got to sort of make yourself happy. So I'm never as despondent as other people. But it does. And I can understand. And the interesting thing with this is what usually happens is everyone goes to bed angry and then sort of wakes up philosophical. Whereas I get the feeling that the mood back home is almost that people sort of started off philosophical and are now getting rather angry. And there is a uniformity of opinion as well, which is quite interesting. You don't usually get that either. But I was just looking at the various ex-players, former players, managers.

24:01I've just heard Harry Redknapp on the way I've just followed Harry Redknapp on Times Radio when they said, well, who is that? Then he was talking about defending too deep and those sort of issues. I said, well, who's that down to? And he was a slight surprise in his voice. He said, well, the manager. No one else puts the substitutions on. And that's absolutely right. And then you look at the people in the game, because it's not just armchair critics and people like myself or whatever. It's not just those guys. When you look at it, you know, Gary Lineker, Wayne Rooney, Joe Hart, you go through them.

24:41I'm seeing quotes from Thomas Muller from Ica Casillas. And they're all saying the same thing. They can't all be wrong. They've all played, you know, Thomas Tuchel might say, oh, you know, what did he say about a million armchair managers or something like that? But you can't turn around and say that Thomas Muller doesn't know how to win a game of football. Or indeed Ika Casillas for that matter. And they're all saying the same thing. They couldn't understand the way England finished that game. 12 % possession after they went ahead. I threw back from Atlanta. Inter was on the plane sitting across the aisle is Wayne Rooney and we were talking about it and he was saying, Ferguson, I think it was said that when Manchester United just scored, he wanted them to go nuts in the five minutes after that because that's when the opposition is at the most vulnerable.

25:37That is when, you know, if you can pin them back in their own half at that point, you know, that's when you put in their mind that defeat is inevitable. We're 1-0 down already. We can't get out of our own box here. You know, they've got their foot on our throats. You know, Ferguson really, really drummed that into them. You know, the old cliche, you score a goal, one brings two. That's the point at which you push home your advantage. And England give the complete opposite. England do the complete opposite. And that's the thing, that it hasn't changed. or everything that people said about Gareth Southgate, Tuchel was meant to change that.

26:18Tuchel was meant to be the antidote to that. And in the end, we were watching the same film all over again. Apart from in the film that Gareth Southgate was in, he'd just taken over a team that had got knocked out by Iceland in the European Championships. Tuchel had taken over a team that reached the final of the European Championships. Had a ball cleared off the line. otherwise they would have taken it into extra time. You know, that's why it's hitting different, I think, this morning. That's why it's hitting different to a lot of people because of what they were sold, what the narrative was.

26:54Absolutely. Martin, I want to ask about what you thought of Argentina just in terms of being philosophical and things. As you say, we have had a few listeners and people getting in touch talking about how good Argentina were. I mean, my counter to them has been, well, England allowed them to be good. But unlike Johnny and Matt, you know, you have been travelling around this World Cup. you've seen more teams how impressive was that response from Argentina in the context of what you've seen at the World Cup not just about England sitting off but in terms of Argentina's response but Argentina once Argentina scored see it's about bravery as well football is about bravery winning football matches big ones it's about bravery Argentina were brave because when they equalised they knew they had us and they pushed on they equalize and they're thinking oh we're so badly set up for extra time here we've got we've got a team full of center halves and we're now going to extra time Argentina exposed the fallacy of that thought process because they need extra time they're like we're going to win this we're going to win this anyway we're just we'll win this in injury time so they've they've got exceptional character and we keep uh talking about chemistry and brotherhood and character and all of this but what you've got to think is i'm not saying that's easy to coach and create because it isn't that's why it was such an achievement in many ways that the ball that gareth southgate started rolling but you can do that you know you can create you know kate verdi had fabulous team spirit um there's a lot of teams out here with fabulous team spirit in the end it's going to come down to the old football basically and when they went when they got back level Argentina were really better at the old football than we were and they were braver and they wanted to push that advantage home in a way in a way that we didn't and it is about bravery it really is I mean you know it's a very crude way of putting it because obviously there's tactical or technical and all of these different issues strategic or whatever but there's also about actually being brave in the way you play the game and that's what argentina are look once they've equalized there is only one winner of that game and it doesn't matter if it go if that goal gets scored in the next nine minutes or the next 30 minutes or whenever once they'd equalized they're going through and you know it straight away.

29:28England and Thomas Tuchel and the FA now have this tricky and deeply unwanted third, fourth place match with France. It could not be a bigger disaster, I would say, for Thomas Tuchel and England. I spoke to Matt Lawton earlier about that match, which he's going to, hoping to put some questions to Thomas Tuchel. What do you think about the situation with the FA and Tuchel that they've got themselves into? Firstly, can I ask, you talked so much on this podcast about this gun-for-hire manager that he was. That has changed, obviously, with the new contract he was given. But if he had not been, can I pose a theoretical question to you?

30:03If he had not been, and if we were walking out of this tournament now, would he be getting a new contract or would he be walking away, do you think? I think he'd be getting a new contract because Mark Bullingham, I think, is a very mediocre chief executive. And I don't think he can believe he's working with Thomas Tuchel. It's beyond his, you know I don't think he can believe the manager that he has got for England And so I always thought Thomas Tuchel's job was safe Even before the contract You could see the contract thing coming, to be fair You're thinking they're desperate They're desperate not to, you know They're desperate to go back on this pitch that they have sold everybody About 18 months, win the World Cup And that's it, you know a wham bam thank you man they're they're they're desperate to get back on uh to roll back on that so none of that surprises me i i think i think two things have happened one i think you're you this is the end of phase one of thomas tucall where he was unchallengeable because up until now to question anything that he does is like heresy um oh this man's a genius you know this is the guy that's going to win us the world cup this is you know and and players get left out that you're thinking good players you're gonna need them yeah world cup you're gonna need good players and but to question it it was it was like you'd grown two heads so that's that's at an end because the next time there's a team there's there's a squad without say trent in it or cole palm or or someone like you know people are going to start saying well why and wanting a proper explanation which we've never got about, say, Trent.

31:48No one's ever actually said, well, he doesn't do this and he doesn't do that and this. You don't really know. You can't work it out. That has changed. The other thing is this. Once again, we're going to watch the World Cup won by a team of our country that have produced their coach from within their own system. I think there is a reason that we will still say there with no foreign coach ever having won the World Cup and I think the reason is this if you're a country that expects to win the World Cup or thinks it has a chance of winning the World Cup and let's be fair, Cape Verde come here, they don't think they're going to win the World Cup Spain do, Brazil do, we do, Argentina, all of these countries We've got France and Germany all come here thinking we could win this World Cup.

32:42If you're a country of that size and you cannot produce your own coach, you have a fundamental flaw in your system that makes winning a World Cup an outside bet. You look at Brazil. Are Brazil any good at the moment? No. And you know how you can tell that Brazil are no good at the moment? They've got Carlo Ancelotti in. because their system isn't working. They're not producing the coaching talent that they thought they've usually got. So they're looking around and they're panicking. What can we do? What can we do? Let's get Carlo Ancelotti in. He'll sort it out. But he can't sort it out because the flaw, you know, it becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy.

33:28The very fact that you need someone from outside your system is giving you the reason why you're probably not going to win in the World Cup, whoever you get in, until you talk that system out. Have a look at the guy that is coaching Spain, Tela Puerta. Have a look at his record, where he came from. He is in that culture. He is in the Spanish culture. He is in the Spanish system. Grows up with the players. Works for them at under-19 level. They all come through it together. They absolutely know what they're about. Did you think we looked like we knew what we were about? because the English players that I see as producing are very, very technical.

34:09They're very, very continental players in many ways. They're the sort of players that we didn't... We always used to look at the other countries and go, why don't we produce a guy like that? Why don't we produce a guy, you know, who can play like that, who can make those passes? And then we start doing it, and now it's like we're trying to go backwards to a time when it was, you know, very much bully beef and chips. and you're thinking, we're so confused all the time. We're so confused. We haven't got the culture that Spain have got, that Argentina have got. You know, they all know what they're about.

34:46They know exactly what they're about, Argentina. They know how they're playing. It's no coincidence that they get into World Cup finals and you're looking at it and you're going, I've watched him. I've watched him for two seasons of Tottenham. He gets sent off every other week and then he'll get relegated. what's happening here? I'm watching Alexis McAllister and you're thinking, God, the game's passing in Biden, the game's passing in Biden and you see them for Argentina. So, something, there is something that happens when they get with, and it's cultural, it's that you know where you're, you know what your country's about, you know what that culture, that football culture, the way you want to play, this is what we want to do.

35:30And we haven't got that. We still, We don't know if we want to produce 11 Phil Fodens or whether we want to just, you know, blood, sweat and tears. We don't know what we're about. Yeah, interesting. You raised that cultural point. Gregor and Alison both did that in the post-match analysis podcast as well. Just a final question, Martin. I put this to Matt as well. As I mentioned, the intriguing 48 hours for England and Thomas Tuchel and the FA. is there any world in which you see his position changing in those 48 hours depending on what he says depending on his responses in the press conference only if he wanted it that's the only way he goes you know you can't say oh he must must stay with you know whether he wants to or not uh if the man wanted to go and by the way if he went i can understand that if he went oh okay you you lot are so clever, you do it.

36:24You know, because I don't think the FA have got an idea in their head other than throwing money at it. They all talk about England DNA and all of this. I don't think they've got an idea in their head other than let's try to be the Manchester City of international football. Let's just use our money from our wonderful Premier League that's built on foreign managers and foreign talent and let's use that and we will throw our money at this problem in the hope that we can solve it and by the way i'm not against throwing money at a problem i'm a very big advocate of you know if you can't get a cab outside the san suro and it's it's one o 'clock in the morning you know get 50 euros out 100 euros and give it to somebody to get you out of there i'm a very big fan of you know you can solve you you know 50 quid will solve solve a lot of problems if you're prepared to spend it i don't think it solves the uh problem of whether you can win a world cup or not really interesting a fascinating couple of days ahead for england martin samuel thank you very much for joining us on the game podcast as always you can read the latest from martin on the times website and he will of course be at the world cup final as well so you can read his thoughts on that big game on Sunday too.

37:45Martin, we'll speak to you very soon. Cheers, Tom. Martin Samuel there. A brilliant piece from him on the Times website now, expanding on some of those themes and discussing the role of the Football Association in this scenario that England find themselves in once again. I wanted to finish with a final thought from another listener. David was in touch with some brilliant and detailed analysis. David, it was so good, I could have put it straight on the Times website. I'm not going to read all of it out. Here's an adapted takeaway for you listeners. He said,

38:48Then offers loads and loads of detailed analysis in there from David, but he finishes with this point, which is a nice note to end on. However, there is one big positive for England, he says. England's performance when they host a tournament at Wembley is different. England can and do knockout elite teams then. They won the World Cup in 1966. They knocked Spain out in Euro 96. they knocked Germany out in Euro 2020. In fact, England have never actually been beaten in normal time in any Euros or World Cup knockout game played at Wembley. They were undefeated in 1966. They exited Euro 96 and Euro 2020 on penalties.

39:24Neither Germany or Italy could beat them in normal or extra time. When England have home advantage, they can beat elite teams and elite teams need penalties to beat them. And guess what? England are hosting Euro 2028. an excellent positive note to end on from David there do keep your questions and thoughts coming in we've been brilliant brilliant to hear from you all really fascinating thoughts and lovely counterpoints to some of the points we've made on the pod already we've got Johnny Northcroft, Paul Hurst and many more joining me in the coming days as this wonderful and dramatic World Cup comes to an end but for now thank you to Matt Lawton, Martin Samuel and all those listeners who got in touch I'll be back tomorrow to preview that dreaded third and fourth place playoff.

40:08We'll see you then.

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