WORLD CUP DAY 37: The big one! No, really...

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1:00this episode it might be the third and fourth place playoff day but on today's show we are pulling out all the stops we're talking about england's footballing culture coaching issues championship rings and fifa rip-offs and what next for france's talented bunch of players i'm tom clark and in part two i'll be hearing from ian hawkey on france and their departing manager but first i'm joined by our chief football correspondent and football journalist of the year johnny northcroft johnny you've had awards you've got the respect of your peers and you've got contacts with some of the biggest names in the game but are you up for the challenge of making the preview show for the third place playoff a riveting affair yes tom born ready i've had a i'm in a korean restaurant in manhattan i've had a lovely plate of bibimbap if that's how you say it and i am ready go for anything after the spicy chicken excellent a bit of ambience bit of manhattan ambience in the background as well that's absolutely fine we love hearing it and we've obviously heard from Matt Lawton, Martin Samuel, Gregor and Ali discussed it live.

2:01We heard your voice note from the ground after that Argentina game. So I wanted to kind of move beyond that and use a piece of yours on the Times website, which kind of brilliantly teases a couple of strands for us to get into. I was also remarking today as I was planning this show on your voice note from the ground, where you said maybe there's something in this English DNA, maybe there's something in English footballing culture. And then you said, oh, but there's no time to get into that now so why don't we get into that now johnny where you sat in a manhattan korean restaurant let's get into it now i mean how have you reflected on everything that's happened in the last 48 hours with england and after that result yeah i mean i suppose um the best thing i could say is it still feels very vivid 48 hours later it's um i've just had lunch with someone and we're still talking about exactly what that carnage that we witnessed was and the context they've always gone wrong for England you know I keep checking things on social media and I still I think I've still got an appetite to think about it it felt that kind of seismic um it's funny I remember Thomas Tuchel back in November when he um maybe when he first moved to the idea that maybe I don't have to get the second star in order to to carry on it was the first signs that he wanted to extend his stay in the job and he said something then which was like Like, he was asked, what would you have to do to justify continuing as England manager?

3:28Would I have to be winning it? And he said, no, no, no. Sometimes you can succeed if you don't win. He said, it's always about how you go out. You know, he actually said that. And that's what I've been thinking in the last sort of period of time. It's the impact of the how. What we saw. What does that mean? Going out like that. for that to be the end point of this fancy foreign coach and this this journey and and and so on it does feel quite shocking it does feel like a moment to me anyway that that that you know english football should take stock again or england football should take stock again um because it was quite it was quite shocking i think as put i think maybe that's the best way to put it it was It felt so shocking that last period of the game that we're going to think, a bit like Iceland, that we're going to think about it for a long time.

4:22Yeah. I mean, in terms of the kind of shocking side of it, the only thing I'd say back to that in pondering, and it's not to disagree with you, is that you and I have had these conversations after these moments before. And in terms of it being a moment for the English game to think about, Italy was that in the Euros final. You and I and Gregor and Ali and Martin and everyone after Spain, look at the way they control the game, look at the way they never give up. It's that repetition of that theme. How do we step back from that? Because also the other thing we've discussed is that the bloke before Thomas Tuchel tried to do that, didn't he?

4:59We're now in this situation where the gun for hire coach who was supposed to fix the clutch moment is now we're now rowing back and going, oh, no, we need to do DNA. We need to do culture, don't we? It's a fascinating flip on its head, isn't it, really? it is it is but i think that's the point thomas in in 2024 in 2022 and in 20 year 2020 there was a continuity because of gareth um and there was a sense of of of england still being on a kind of journey with that he was bringing in which affecting the mentality and all that kind of stuff the problem with Tuchel is that that point ended and the solution as you say became the gun coach and the idea became you know this group, we all said it this need to get over the line, this need some extra bit to get over the line and it will be the coach that provides it and I think my biggest takeaway is that this isn't about individuals there was a lobby that said England would win but Gareth's hopeless tactically and they were never right on that but that was the the Southgate sort of doubters now now it can't be that oh well we'll just change the coach again you know that the foreign guy came and he didn't work you know it's it's got to be something a lot deeper than that and I think it's it's also you referenced it England have tried the culture work they've tried the psychology I think those aspects have improved the preparation's improved and the conclusion that my piece today is the solutions lie in the football they always lie in the football it's always about the football and that's i think the fundamental um that that we really need to address because i've seen england exits from actually from euro 96 onwards maybe euro 96 and 1998 were slightly different because they were penalties in england were unlucky but pretty much every single one since then it's ended the same way it's ended against a team that keeps the ball better has more control has a way of varying the rhythm of the game and has a way of taking the heat out of situations all those things that england lack and for me it's about how the how how the game is played it's about how what what attributes are prized within the English game and whether that is ever really going to win a world title because the evidence is there every single time and it's different nations but England come up against the team that manages the game better that possesses the ball better um and it's it I think they need somebody that's going to try that I don't think they've had a coach that's tried that since arguably Glenn Hardwell and Teddy Venables.

7:52I think it's the only way out. Do you think Tuchel is that coach? Do you think he, because obviously layered into this is, you know, what your view is on what next? You know, we've got this game to come. Matt Lawton is there. We're going to be hearing from Thomas Tuchel. You'll probably read that on the Times website by the time you're listening to this. You know, what is your view now? You talked about the shock of the moment, but also we're now talking about deep-rooted things. I presume you're probably in the camp of Tuchel stays but bigger things needed to change? I am. Look, I think it would be illogical to sack a guy who was five minutes away from winning.

8:29And yes, he made a big mistake. It was an awful, awful call that he made at that last sidration break. But, you know, what I do admire about him is when he goes for something, he goes for it the whole haul. He doesn't do half measures and he went for the full-on Alamo. And it was the wrong decision. So I know I wouldn't sack him. Can he be that coach? I mean, he's not an ideology coach. He's never had, there's never been a too cool brand of football. He's an extremely gifted sort of magpie coach who's able to do a bit of pep, do a bit of co-op, take defeat ideas. And I guess until the other night, he'd have said his biggest attribute was in-game decisions and working on how to nullify oppositions.

9:15but I think he's a brilliant teacher of football and if he puts his mind to it he can get England playing in a more patient ball possession way but you know you just look at the profile of players that he chose in this sport he leaned into physicality we know the players that he left at home he went for the biggest most athletic sort of you know do or die players that he could and he said that's England's football identity well I'm sorry if England keep thinking that that identity is going to win trophies the evidence of 60 years is there it's not you know and we see that in club football we shouldn't this shouldn't be a mystery we've had the Pep Guardiola and the rest come in and change the club game but I do feel that when it comes to national team this there's still a sort of falling back on those traditional English attributes and it just doesn't work it hasn't worked.

10:16In the immediate aftermath Johnny of that of the game when we'd heard from you the first time you know Alison I pressed Alison on whether there was an actual identity and she couldn't fall on one for the English national team and Gregor said well kind of Tuchel has created one but it's kind of from the 90s which speaks to your point about the physicality what do you think as you know the man who leads our football and sees so much of the premier league and european football and the international game what what would you describe the english you know style as being if there were to be one that was representative of the english game as you see it yeah i think it's i think it's intensity i think it is a certain greater directness than than other nations but i think it's changed in the last 10 15 years because of e triple p and the impact to coaches like pep guardiola so i think it's becoming um a sort of adapted identity and i think there's no reason that you can't retain some of the english traditional values you know pressing has always been an english strength um and yeah physicality has always been a strength you know famously pep guardiola said in his first season i don't even know what second balls everyone talks about second balls what are second balls but he laughed about it and he taught himself to get that into his game plan so you saw Pep over the years merging English sort of traditional values with his game and there's no reason the national team can't do that and when I think about the reader response has been quite interesting to the piece I wrote because there's a certain lobby saying well there's no point talking about ball possession there's no point talking about patience England don't produce those type of players.

12:04I mean, have people seen the quality, the technical quality of players coming out of the academies? I don't think technical shortcomings are the problem. I think it's mindset. I think it's the way people are expected to play from a young age. And there was a coach that was in charge of England that said, we can do this differently. Lee Carsley. You know, Lee Carsley was putting in Angel Gomez and getting him to play 120 passes in an international game. Now, you know, it wasn't a World Cup game, but it was fairly decent Nations League games. Lee Carsley had Tyler Morton in the under-21 final, in the words of Hamza, our colleague, you know, looking like Xavi.

12:46I think English players have got the technique, but they need to be encouraged to play that way. They need to be taught that that's possible. and I think Durkow could have chosen a different squad and I've said this when you start Trent, Cole Palmer Adam Waterman were three I thought about but you could add a few more in I think even James Garner pretty technical Curtis Jones even, I don't know there are players there that could have played in a slightly different way and I'm not saying he had to pick all of those guys but there are players and if he maimed into something else. Or if he hadn't gone the full, like, you know, max strength English football, Dan Byrne, you know, there's an injury, let's get another big centre-back in.

13:36I mean, Inglebury only scored the nine centre-back, nine defenders, sorry. You know, if you look at the other big nations, everyone had an eight or seven. Inglebury went for nine. So it didn't have to be this way. Look, it was an experiment. Tuchel tried, he got close, but ultimately he was embarrassed with that style. And he isn't intelligent enough to change. Is he humble enough, though? Is he humble enough to accept that this wasn't quite right? And he needs to do something different? But I don't know. We'll find out. In terms of alternatives, Johnny, you mentioned Pep Guardiola there. he was obviously approached by England as we know from your reporting before Thomas Tuchel got the job and Lee Carsley of course had that kind of interim spell and you mentioned him in your piece it feels like they're kind of two very big extremes that people are talking about in a world in which Thomas Tuchel is not the England head coach do you see either of them as viable or is that part of the reason that you would stick with Thomas Tuchel until the Euros because either of those options aren't really suitable right now no i think they're both very viable candidates um for different reasons and i think out of logic and fairness you you give you give tuchel another you give him another turning as i say you know it was one bad right okay it's more than one bad hydration break because i've just said um that you know he missed there's a there's a problem with the profile of the squad but but i've got a lot of time for him he's he's he's he's he's got so many qualities i think he i i thought until the other night he's a brave manager with conviction um and you know what happened the night made me doubt that but people can have bad moments so i think he deserves um he deserves to see where he can go and he he did build a squad for incredible spirit out here So, you know, on that evidence, you let him have the squad for another tournament cycle.

15:38But if he walked away, then, you know, the fact that Pep Guardiola has always been intrigued by international football and intrigued by England. and Lee Carsley is, you know, I think an absolutely fascinating, very gifted coach who has been so good at junior level, as we know, and actually in charge of the senior team, apart from the Greece game, I thought did extremely well. So I would have, if you look at who's in the World Cup finals, it's the Argentina under-20 coach and the Spanish under-21 coach. Yeah, absolutely. A fascinating point as well. We'll come on to that final and a bit of France in part two.

16:22But just before we go, just the idea of this game, you know, we're talking about big picture stuff here. We're not really talking about England against France. Just wanted to pose you the idea of what is the best case scenario for Thomas Tuchel in England tonight. Sorry, we're recording this on Friday night, but what's the best case scenario and what's the worst case scenario? Because I've been trying to think about them in my head. I've been trying to think, you know, Is there even a world in which a win and 90 minutes for Kobi Menuh in which he pulls the strings? Even that's a bad case scenario, isn't it?

16:53Because everyone goes, what the hell were you doing, Thomas? What do you think about those two ideas, Johnny? What's the best and worst case scenarios for Thomas Tuchel against France? Yeah, I mean, look, if he wins, right, that's a starting point. And I'm stating the obvious here. But he achieves the second best result ever in a World Cup for England, right? He gets third place. and he could then walk out in the listen place. I'm the best World Cup manager since 1966. Calm down, you know. And he'd have a case. I don't expect him to beat France, by the way, but I'm happy to be proved wrong. I think it would be good if Jude Bellingham could score a hat-trick and get the golden boot.

17:37Or Harry Kane. I think that would be extremely good. But I also think it would be, if you're talking about bad case scenarios I think it would be pretty bad if Corby Maynou and Ollie Watkins didn't get on the pitch that would that would be cruel on them and it would also be I think stubborn of Turkel and show unacceptance in terms of what went wrong so I think what we'd like to see would be a slightly different team as I say a Bellingham hat trick that leaves everyone in an upbeat manner and he walks out as one of the absolute world stars, the ballon contender, etc, etc. And, yeah, third place would just calm things down a lot.

18:23Of course, the alternative might be a very flat performance with Kylian Mbappé doing everything he can to get the golden boot. And as we've seen, that French team can really punish you if you don't get it right. so but it's probably it's going to be a flat game the France will win 1-0 2-0 2-0 see there you go though loads on the line listeners for this big game loads of brilliant analysis from Johnny Northcroft and some absolutely banging power ballads in this Korean restaurant where you're in Johnny I'm absolutely loving it can you help me Tom I'm trying to work out if they're in Korean or if they are just you know generic power ballads I've no idea but I'm enjoying the kind of uplifting slightly you know There's some of your answers there talking about English footballing culture that seem to align beautifully with some of these songs in the background.

19:14And I was like, producer Neil's going to be loving this. This is greatest hits montage all over the place in terms of a World Cup highlights show. Johnny, we'll be back in just a second. I wanted to ask you about a few more mad things from FIFA just before this World Cup ends. And I wanted to get your thoughts on the final. We'll be back just after this quick break.

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20:30Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined by the Chief Football Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft, live from a Manhattan Korean restaurant with some absolutely great tunes in the background. Johnny, I wanted to ask you about, I mean, we're nearly there. We were nearly there. We've done nearly 40 show World Cup shows. We're nearly at the final. And just when you think they can't come up with anything else, FIFA, they've done it again. Headline on the Times website, news article from Martin Ziegler, our colleague.

21:03FIFA's new World Cup cash grab. Fans could buy a winner's ring for$150 ,000. American-style championship rings will be given to winners of Sunday's final between Spain and Argentina, with the remaining 1 ,996 going on sale to fans and could fetch thousands. i honestly i genuinely don't know how they've got the balls to do this i can't i could i saw it and i thought it was a joke i thought it was one of those ai jokes from one of those you know satire websites i couldn't believe it any any thoughts that aren't just pure pure mockery johnny uh no not really i mean look this idea couldn't be uh any more crass unless it had uh you know the rings had donald trump's face on them or something like that but maybe that's the trick that they've missed.

21:52Now it's like, come on guys, give us a break. It ticks a lot of boxes, doesn't it? You know, cheese sticks, but also proper tier and the sticks. Yeah, I mean, kind of curious as to know who wants to be the crowd owner of a$150 ,000 meaningless ring, but I suppose there's a lot of people with money out there. It's that Salt Bay bloke, won't he? He'll be on the pitch again chatting to Lionel Messi with a fancy ring that he's just bought off Gianni Infantino in the stands or you know a youtuber what's that speed bloke who just turns up at all the games honestly god i sounded like an old bloke then didn't i eh let's get back to football johnny you're going to be there at this final what an enticing and intriguing prospect it's going to be we're going to hear from paul hurst and ian hawkey on both teams in more detail on tomorrow's show but just your thoughts on this game stepping away from england you don't get to watch england and thomas tucall for once at this workup johnny you're going to see the final excited oh hugely we're excited.

22:51It's a fantastic match-up, isn't it? It's, you know, first of all, it's two strongest football cultures, I think, that we have in the modern era. I know France produce unbelievable players, but in terms of countries with identity, these are them. And I think they both, you know, believe so much in the collective in slightly different ways. you know the Spanish just through the way they play and the Argentinians through that kind of Lanuesta idea that they have that that that they are representing a whole people every time they step on the pitch and um you know I was on absolutely blown away by the sheer intensity of their supporters in the England game you know I thought after Mexico nothing's going to top next girl but i mean it was it was right up there the electricity and the noise so seeing that and i mean the met you know the stadium is is is not the best but yeah they will they will enliven that and then you've just got epic story of messi um if he can even find a way to unpick the spanish who you know conceded with one goal and and it's so difficult to even get the ball up if he can he can do that then you know well i don't i don't know if what he's already the best isn't he but it's you know it's it would just take it to another level um but also just the you know we've got a spanish team that you i think has actually got better through the tournament that's grown nicely into it um and yamal was there sort of saka in the sense that he's not been entirely fit but he's still done enough um and just extremely hard to call um but you know absolutely fascinating clash and yeah i can't wait yeah it should be really exciting so tough to call i'm not even going to ask you johnny because it is impossible i can't really see anyone other than argentina having watched them all tournament be every single team somehow some way i'm just increasingly convinced it's going to be Leon on Essie's night again but Johnny Northcroft thank you very very much for joining us from that Korean restaurant in Manhattan I really hope that actually you're going to put the laptop down and go and do some karaoke or something after this but it's been a pleasure to have you on the show and you can read Johnny's report and latest on England in the Sunday Times this weekend and on the Times website Johnny Northcroft will speak to you very very soon thanks for joining us Johnny Northcroft there joining me from Manhattan I don't know about you listeners but I am ready for a night out now maybe that's the idea of a man who's been in his flat for six weeks watching the World Cup and trying desperately and often failing to look after a three and a half month old baby and I mentioned at the top of the show that we were going to hear from Ian Hawkey that is part of a bigger chat that I did with Ian largely about Spain that chat is going to be part of our final preview show that'll be out tomorrow I'll be chatting to Paul Hurst about Argentina and getting Ian Hawkey's thoughts on Spain so make sure you join us for that one but i did also chat to ian about france their departing manager didier deschamps and what might come next for their big band of stars this is what he had to say i think above all gratitude and you do have to take a slightly long perspective because he's been there for so long but you you do need to go back really to before he was appointed the last world cup without deschamps in charge was a total catastrophe if you remember 2010 a mutiny of players, players going on strike, refusing to train in full glare of the television cameras.

26:36After that, you had the Laurent Blanc interlude, where there was also, there were bad dynamics in the dressing room, and Laurent Blanc didn't really handle it very well. So, you know, let's talk about the Dachon Peace dividend, that, you know, it has been considerable, and, you know, and he's won a world cup and got to another final and may pick up another uh medal here although i don't think you know if he does get the bronze medal that's gonna have pride of place on his mantel so so i think you know there will be a lot of gratitude also i i think what's um i mean clearly the defeat against spain was was pretty overwhelming and unexpected but he has you know he has he has left france with memories of possibly the most exciting watchable tournament he's been in charge of you know a consistent criticism is that that you know he's he's applied the handbrake too readily i don't think that was true of this world cup certainly not compared with with other deschamps campaigns so yeah you know great credit to him and and in terms of of legacy you know that's that front four has has several tournaments left in them the other the other sort of legacy isn't you know this isn't of his making is that we do have a national team which is really dominated by a single player Kylian Mbappe is very very important both as a power broker and clearly as as a superstar so um you know it's it's uh he's not he's not the manager of France but he's you know he's he's he's a captain in a sense an international cricket captain as a captain you know absolutely it was so interesting wasn't it Deschamps he I think at one point he did a bow down on the touchline when Mbappe walked off and substituted.

28:19I mean, does Mbappe pick the next coach? I wouldn't have thought so, but I imagine his voice would be heard. I mean, you know, there has been a long-term expectation that Zinedine Zidane fits the bill in all sorts of ways. His success rate in a relatively short period of time at Real Madrid is second to none. And of So this is another way of picking international managers, isn't it? Is the ex-playing idol. And you'd have to say Deschamps has made it really work for France. And if that has set a mould, then that will be part of his legacy too. Fascinating stuff from Ian Hawkey there. I must say, probably for you listeners, we've made that a little bit of a buzzkill.

29:07A long chat about English football and culture with Johnny Northcroft, talking about the possibilities. and then you finish with the idea that France, with Kylian Mbappe and Ousmane Dembele and Michael Alisse and Desiree Douai might be managed by Zinedine Zidane in the future. Never mind, we'll be all right, won't we? Thank you very much, though, to Ian Hawkey for that brief snippet, as I mentioned. Get the rest of it on Spain in tomorrow's show. Thank you, too, to Johnny Northcroft for joining me earlier to talk about England and his views on the final. Thank you, too, as always, for listening.

29:39We are nearly there. We've got one more preview show to do. We'll be having a big World Cup review on Monday as well. We'll see you very soon.

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