WORLD CUP DAY 38: Big final preview, as England take bronze

0:00You've got social dialed in. Search is doing its thing. So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience entirely. More engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels, and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation. We're Acast, and we put them right in front of you. Browse thousands of the world's leading podcasts, book host reads or run your own ads, and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have, brand new results. Acast.

0:35Acast.com slash advertise.

0:44Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is day 38 of our daily World Cup shows and, well, you can debate all you want over whether it was a big game or not, but there can be no doubt. That was a lot of fun. I'm Tom Clark and on today's show we will, of course, be previewing the World Cup final, Spain versus Argentina. But first, we have to talk about that crazy game last night. England 6, France 4 in the third place playoff. Thomas Tuchel's side winning the bronze medal at the 2026 World Cup. Listen, it might not mean much to some, and it's clear that the players are still hurting.

1:25We saw some of their interviews after this game about not being in that final. They're still hurts. You can see it. Bakayo Saka particularly talking after the game quite emotionally on the BBC. But that is England's best World Cup performance since 1966. Better than Gascoigne in 1990. better than Southgate stunners in 2018. There's still lots to dissect about England's tournament performance, and we will, but that fact cannot be taken away from them. Now, the game itself, let's be honest, it was absolutely bonkers. It had the bit of a feel of an end-of-season knockabout at times. In fact, good stat for you here, this was the first FIFA World Cup game to see 10 or more goals scored since Hungary 10, El Salvador 1 in 1982, and the first knockout match since Austria 7, Switzerland 5 in 1954.

2:17There you go. I bet you wouldn't have got that in a pub quiz. Chief sports correspondent for the Times, Matt Lawson, was there reporting on this game for him. So do not envy him having to keep up with all that scores and file on time. But he did. You can read his match report on the Times website now. I asked him after he'd sent that match report to the email queues if he could send us his thoughts on England's performance. and I asked him what it might mean for Thomas Tuchel. Well, that's how you finish a tournament. Absolutely astonishing. I've come down to the press conference room, waiting for Thomas Tuchel.

2:51Who knows what he's going to make of it. Ten goals. I honestly thought we were looking at extra time when Dembele scored. It just seemed like France, I can only imagine, Deschamps must have gone into the dressing room and sort of said to his players, you do realise this is my last game in charge and I have won a World Cup. Is this how you're sending me off? They came out, you know, Mbappe obviously wants that golden boot. Just the most amazing game of football. I think it says a lot for Thomas Tuchel that the players are still fighting for him. I don't think we can draw much from the whole debate around tactics, but my word, these players have not given up on the 52-year-old German, that's for sure.

3:36And they look so pleased. I know it's third. I know they wanted to be in New York tomorrow. But they actually look genuinely pleased to be receiving their Bronson medals just now. I just think after all the disappointment of Argentina on Wednesday in Atlanta, that just gives England a much-needed lift and sends everybody off on their holidays, off to spend some quality time with their families, just in much better spirits and in much better shape to go on to next season, to Spain in the Nations League and then to plan for that home Euros in 2028. A much-needed lift for England indeed. As I say, you can read Match Report on the Times website now.

4:19I would love to hear from you too on that game. I'm kind of recording this now. I'm sure you can hear it in my voice. Kind of impressed at England that they got themselves up for that game. I thought it was quite striking listening to Anthony Barry at half-time you know talking about the emotion and pride that he felt in this group of players he talked about the hurt that they've been feeling in the days since the argentina defeat of course so i think it does say a lot about the group and the mentality that you know they got up for this game and produced a great performance listen france were daft we're going to come on to that in just a second but i think it says an awful lot about the kind of spirit and mentality and the bond that these players have really really interesting but listen it might not have had the same effect for you so if you're left thinking what if about that argentina retreat instead i'd love to hear your views positive or negative we take them all email me tom.clark at the times.co.uk but i have got a couple of stats here that i thought were quite interesting but kaiosaka is the second england player to score a hat-trick in a world cup knockout stage match after jeff hurst in the 66th final of course the only other player to score a hat-trick versus france in the competition is pelle in 1958 pretty good company for Bukayo Saka Jude Bellingham, what a guy even if he's on the bench he still manages to make some headlines and quite rightly so 7 goals at this tournament that is the outright most ever by an England player at a single World Cup or European Championship tournament he's better than Lineker he's better than Kane and what a goal by the way I mean it was the most Jude Bellingham thing ever for Saka to get a hat-trick and Bappe to be in the goals and Bellingham comes off the bench and scores quite frankly a worldie in any other match we'd be talking about it for weeks mazy run nutmeg finish what a player he is only 23 as well goodness me what a future in an England shirt he's got finally just a little pub quiz question for you this one might keep you guessing over your Sunday morning breakfast England started three Arsenal players in a FIFA World Cup game in Declan Rice Bukayo Saka and Eberiche Eze for the first time since 2002 against Brazil can you name which three?

6:29I think that pause is long enough for me to give the answer, which was David Seaman, Sol Campbell and Ashley Cole. Bit of jovial way to approach that for Arsenal fans who are probably pulling their hair out at the idea of Declan Rice and Bakayo Saka playing that many minutes at the end of a very long season. On to France now. Ian Whittle was also there reporting on this match with Matt Lawton. I asked Ian if he could send me his thoughts on this France team. A shocking first half, let's be honest. They barely look like they'd turn up. they looked like they'd been maybe having a bit of a party after that semi-final defeat but they were stunning at times in the second half so I asked Ian, did they save face in the end?

7:06So that was an extraordinary third and fourth place play-off between France and England and I guess the question is what do France take out of that? Well, I suppose looking at the positives, Kylian Mbappe showed what we all knew, that he's one of the all-time greats. Two goals and assists put him very much in the driving seat ahead of the World Cup final in terms of the golden boot, that's some consolation in a world of scratching around for small consolations for France because that first half was just abject. I mean, England scored at will, should have had more than before they got. France rarely threatened.

7:37And then a complete change at half-time. Deschamps made four substitutes. He looked bemused, perplexed, disinterested in the first half on the bench every time the cameras focused on him after an England goal. But he obviously got a lot more animated as the game warren. I think for context, you have to remember that France pretty much assumed, not in an arrogant way but just they seemed destined to be on course to reach the final almost from the start of this tournament so to lose in the manner they did against Spain was every bit as disappointing as it was for England to lose to Argentina in that way so they had a lot of negativity to get out the system just like England did and eventually they probably did that I think the combination of a stirring second half great reception from both sets of fans on the final whistle for an extraordinary attacking game if not a defensive masterclass I think that suggests that France took something out of this Mbappe was great if Alise had taken a couple of the chances that came his way at 4-3 it could even have been a spectacular France win for now does it make up for the disappointment of not reaching the final no of course it doesn't but at least the French fans who were here today and the Mbappe fans that were here today went home with a smile on their faces.

8:47A good night for the Mbappe fans indeed and the stats confirm that story too. Two goals and assists against England. Kylian Mbappe has now recorded the most goal involvement on record. Opta have only started keeping the record since 1966 at a single World Cup tournament. He's got 14, 10 goals and 4 assists. Mbappe also now on 22 goals overall at World Cups in general. He's the leading all-time scorer one ahead of Messi in that category two ahead of him at this tournament going into the final over to you Lionel not only trying to win a World Cup but also trying to get the better of Kylian Mbappe Michael Alise is the first player on record again since 66 to record seven assists in a single edition of the World Cup Alise has also provided five assists to Mbappe at this tournament it is the most assists one player has provided for a teammate on record in a single edition of the World Cup.

9:46No wonder he's being linked with a move to Real Madrid to join up with Mbappe. What a terrifying and exciting prospect that is. What a game. What a game. Listeners, another memorable and bonkers night which leaves me chatting to you. Let's be honest, a bit of nonsense at the times in my living room in the early hours of this World Cup. I had hoped to have Gregor Robertson with me tonight, a must reveal. but he is enjoying a well-earned weekend off with some pals in Scotland. Apparently, they're all meeting up to watch John McGinn's twice-deflected goal v Haiti. Sounds like a lovely, fun night for all the boys.

10:22Now, Gregor, we'll be back though on Monday for the big tournament review. We're back in the studio. Gregor's going to be there. Tom Allnott's going to be there. Tony Cascarino's going to be there. We'll be dissecting England's tournament performance further than in that show as well as reviewing the World Cup final. So that's that Monday show. That's the next show you're going to get from us. That'll be in your feeds at the regular time, Monday afternoon, because we'll be back in the studio. We'll be back on YouTube too at Time Sport to find all that content. So let's now turn to the big game.

10:53We've had the bonkers game. Now the one that really, really matters. What a matchup it is set to be. After the break, I'll be chatting to Ian Hawkey about Spain. But first, let's speak to our man in the Argentina camp. Paul Hurst has been with the holders all tournament. he's seen every game he's been at all their press conferences I asked him about their preparations for the final I asked him for some predictions too and crucially if he had taken any flack from his pals in the Argentina press pack after they'd beaten England It's been okay to be fair we were in a different press box to the Argentinian reporters which is probably probably for the best given how they celebrate goals generally but so yeah I saw him in the mix zone after in the interview area and they're all very magnanimous and, you know, very, you know, they all said, oh, you know, never mind, there's always next time and all that kind of thing, which obviously, you know, we've heard that one before, haven't we?

11:54So, yeah, no, they were all very, you know, I mean, they were just all kind of pumped up because, you know, I've never met a bunch of people who are so passionate about their national team than Argentinian people in general, not just journalists, you know. Every Argentinian that I've met is so passionate about the World Cup, about their team winning the World Cup. So they were just on cloud nine. I think they were quite relieved, obviously, because it was a bit of a tight game and they went through the ringer again. But if they've got such self-belief that they're always going to do it, I think they always thought that they were going to get through.

12:33Yeah. Were they too focused on that euphoria and passion and joy to have any opinion on England and Thomas Tuchel and substitutions and sitting back? Or was there a bit of, you know, is there any chat about that? Or is it just all pure euphoria and messy and we're going to do it again? Very similar to what we've, our kind of, well, certainly my viewpoint that they just, that England gave up attacking way too early. That England sat back ridiculously deep and it was just asking for trouble. I don't think they were really impressed by the way that the substitutions panned out. They always have this undying belief in Messi that he will turn it around regardless of the circumstances.

13:15So I think even in their minds that comeback would have happened even if England would have been defending further up the pitch. But yeah, generally they weren't too impressed by England overall, I don't think. I don't think they thought England played that well. I think certainly I've had a couple of texts after from Argentinian people, journalists saying, why do some pundits think that England are better than Argentina? And I just had to explain that the reality is that England have probably got better individual players. Obviously, apart from Messi, he's the best. You know, he'd definitely get in our team.

13:58but in terms of like a solid group the actual team Argentina are a better unit than us and that's why they ended up getting to the final How's the mood in the camp been building up to this final? It's a question I always like to ask because I think you bring a unique perspective to it for listeners I mean we've chatted so much throughout this tournament about that belief that you mentioned that desire, that fervent hunger to get this trophy again I mean, I don't know how many more levels of excitement and passion and things that this lot can go to, but I assume there will be if they manage to pull this off.

14:33Yeah, I think the overriding emotion is one of calm, really. They just seem to be enjoying themselves. And in some ways, this World Cup was almost like a free hit for them, wasn't it? You know, they won the last one. That took the pressure off, certainly the pressure off Messi, having not won one before that. And I just think they're really enjoying it. They're enjoying the fact that they're helping Messi get to another final in what is going to be his last World Cup, we imagine. So, yeah, they all seem quite relaxed and quite... They're really kind of chipper at training, really. Quite energetic, really, which is quite something, given that the World Cup is five weeks long.

15:14And then at the press conference yesterday, Lionel Scaloni was the most... I mean, he's so relaxed anyway, isn't he normal? but he was cracking jokes and taking the mick out of the journalists in the room and all that kind of stuff. So that just suggests to me that they are really at ease with what's coming their way in the final. They're very relaxed and prepared for what Spain will throw at them. Any team news, any injuries or anything to play into question before we get into how they might approach this game? I think there's certainly no injuries, so I just think he'll, he might stick with, I think he'll probably bring Rodrigo de Paul back into the team for Simeone.

15:56That didn't work in the last match, I don't think. There wasn't that much width. And Simeone's quite young, so it was a very difficult thing for him to be, a difficult task for him to undertake, to try and break England down one flank when he's not really played much in the tournament. So I think he'll revert to the same old people that he's trusted throughout the tournament and he trusted four years ago. I think I'm right in saying that the line-up that I've got in my head will contain nine of the players that played in the last World Cup final and the only other two that miss out will be Otamendi, who will be on the bench, and Di Maria, who's retired.

16:40So he's really stuck with that team. It's a winning formula for him. and even four years on from the last win, he's still got complete faith in those players and he doesn't really seem to want to change it that much. Yeah, in terms of not changing that much, do you think we'll expect similar tactics from them to the England game? The thing is, before the drama, before the substitutes, before the retreat, there was a very, very attritional first half, wasn't there, with a certain type of tactic employed by Argentina. They're obviously going up against an even better technical side in Spain are we going to expect to see that coming again Lamin-Yemal going to get a kick in should he be putting bigger shin pads on well yeah I think that's part of their game they're physical aren't they that midfield in particular is extremely physical extremely aggressive and Spina have got to be prepared for that there's a lot of young players in their team and Rodri was talking about this yesterday in the press conference he was saying that part of his job is to make sure that the young players are ready for what's going to come at them.

17:45And I'm not just talking about in terms of the pressure of trying to win the biggest trophy in international football, but actually what they'll have to contend with when they're face-to-face with these players who are, let's be right, inferior, as you say, technically. But in terms of street smarts, in terms of their aggression and passion, they are a level above anyone else in the tournament. So, yeah, they'll have to deal with that in midfield. You know, Paredes, De Paul, McAllister and Fernandes are really, they will be on Spain from the word go and there'll be a lot of pressure applied to the midfield.

18:23So it's about if Spain want to win, they've got to try and withstand that and not rise to the bait, not trying to, not kind of get involved in any scraps, etc. Not get involved in any kind of back and forth and just kind of play their game and keep a cool head. What happens if Argentina take the lead, Hirstie? Because we've seen it so often with them going behind, falling behind and being under pressure and things, even where they're falling behind, but even momentum in some of these games sometimes, even if they're not behind, they still feel on the back foot. What happens if Argentina are 1-0 up after 10 minutes?

18:58Do they shut up shop? Do you think there's an element of where maybe they need that switch flick that is at that moment of being 1-0 behind or even 2-0 behind. Do you think they need that urgency sometimes to drive them on? Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because the first four games, they went ahead in all those four games and since then they've struggled a bit. I just think if they do go 1-0 in front, they will probably try and shut up shopper a little bit and just kind of try and hope for a couple of counterattacks. But also, they're really good at set pieces. Walter Samuel, the former Inter Milan defender who was one of the assistants for Scaloni he organises their set pieces and they spend a lot of time arranging those and working out the patterns of the opposition and I think it was Alexis McAllister scored against Switzerland in a run where he jagged in from the he was in the centre of the box then sort of ran out and then came back into the near post and flicked a header in and they've clearly been working on that for a long time.

20:06So that's another ace that they've got up their sleeve. So yeah, I think Spain, if they're going to win it, they have to take the lead. I can't see them coming from behind to beat Argentina. Yeah. You mentioned Rodri there, and he's a player that you watch a lot and covering the Manchester patch in his time at City. He's a player that at this tournament, for me, has actually gone back up a level to the real heights that he was at and shown maybe a tenacity and energy in his game that maybe we don't always see with City, partly because he often doesn't need to employ it because it's such a stroll at times.

20:41Will Argentina be more worried about him or Laminya Mal? Which of the players in the Argentina media and amongst the team and the camp, they're going, God, we're really worried about them? Yeah, I think Rodri is the key, isn't he? Again, at the press conference yesterday, he was talking about, someone asked him about his pass completion rate, which is, I think it's the top of the stats. And he was saying, yeah, I always think about how carefully I control the ball and where the next pass is going to. And I was just thinking at the time, God, I wish you were English. Because if you'd been playing for us in the Argentina match, England would have seen it through quite easily.

21:22So, yeah, I agree with you. I think he's gone up another level in this tournament, which is a huge surprise for me because for the last two seasons at City, he's really struggled. Well, I say he's really struggled. I would say he played at his best one in every three or four games last season and they needed him to be more consistent. But it's just that injury just has affected the rest of his body, basically. his hamstrings aren't what they were and all their muscles aren't either because they've had to deal with the impact of that the consequences of that knee injury and him being out for so long with that knee injury so yeah for some reason he's just kind of picked up another level maybe it's because he didn't play that much last season that he feels a little bit fresher going into the World Cup so yeah I think he will be the one that they will be on at from the word go, yeah.

22:24Yeah, before we let you go, Hurstie, how do you think this game's going to pan out? If you feel bold enough to give me a prediction, I'd love one, but if not, I'd understand because it is a very tight game between two very kind of contrasting styles, if you like, and levels of intensity. How do you see this match playing out? Logic dictates that Spain will win because they've got a better team, better technical players, but, you know, we've seen this film before, haven't we? We thought that for the last game against England, I just don't see, I just see Argentina winning it. I just think it's written the stars for Messi's to do it again.

22:56I just think they are so clever, so street smart, and they're used to winning stuff. And if they won the last two Copa Americas, won the last World Cup, when it gets to this stage of the tournaments, they just know, you know, it's like muscle memory for them. They know how to see games out. They know how to control the occasion and deal with it. So, yeah, part of me as a football romantic wants to see it because I want to see Messi lift a World Cup before he bowers out. But I also think practically it will happen just because of the experience that they've got of winning these big tournaments.

23:35Paul Hurst there with loads of insight from the Argentina camp, I must say, having watched them all tournament, there does feel an inevitability about this Argentina side at this World Cup. Let's see if Ian Hawkey can change our minds, though. I had a big chat with him about Spain. That's coming up just after this break.

24:05Marketers, you know that feeling when your creative clicks? When that social post sends engagement through the roof? When your outside-of-the-box campaign hits ROI positive? when a personalized homepage turns prospects into customers. It's utter marketing bliss. Contentful helps you create tailored omni-channel experiences without working overtime. No stress, no limits, only possibilities. Get the feels at contentful.com. AI isn't just digital. It's physical. Hospital floors, factory production lines, autonomous systems making real-time decisions in environments where the stakes are real and the margin for error is not.

24:44The engineers taking AI from prototype to physical deployment need infrastructure that's been proven under pressure. That's AWS. Purpose built to help you move from concept to production at scale, without compromise. The next frontier of AI isn't digital. AWS is ready to take you there. Visit aws.com slash AI. AI that's ready when you are. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week, they trust the host, and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet.

25:24We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

26:10writes a weekly column for the Times on European football and is based in Spain. He joined me to chat about La Mignamal, Luis de la Fuente and whether Spain are favourites to lift this trophy. Ian, great to have you with us on the Game Podcast as always. I wanted to start with your just general views on Spain at this tournament, a fascinating team for many of us. I remember referencing them with Pete Rutzler and things in the early hours sat in my living room about them flying under the radar and whether they delivered as much as they could. Tom Allnott, our colleague who has a bit of expertise in Spanish football, said, no, no, no, this team are coming.

26:47Have we seen the best of Spain yet or is that yet to come in this final, do you think? Well, given that possibly we haven't seen the Flair players have, you know, a sustained match of brilliance or a sustained half of brilliance, there is probably better to come. We've seen flashes of Lamine Yamal, but we haven't seen Lamine Yamal take a game by the scruff of the neck yet. So, you know, that would be something that you could anticipate with delight and something that might make them a little bit more thrilling. We haven't seen much of Nico Williams, mainly for fitness reasons. Again, that's a fantastic flair player who could light up a half or 20 minutes or something.

27:29So in that sense, yeah, possibly there is some more dazzle to come. But I do think we've seen tremendous maturity and control and authority, really. So if they can do that, as they did against France in the final, I think you would have to fancy them to be able to tame Argentina and to be able to stop Argentina causing a scare late in the game, which obviously Argentina have been very good at. Yeah, absolutely. We'll come on to the tactical battle in the game in just a second. And mention Laminya Mal indeed as well. but who has impressed you in this Spain team? So many things to like, so many things to enjoy.

28:08I think Rodri has had probably his best performances in any shirt for a long time. He showed a kind of tenacity that maybe we don't see for Manchester City. Pau Kubasi as well in the centre of defence. What a wonderful young player he is. Who's impressed you in this Spain team? Yes, certainly those two. And you're right about Rodri. There probably wasn't that, particularly through the lens of English football, about whether the best Rodri was a figure from the past. And I think we have seen the best Rodri sort of coming to a crescendo in this tournament, pacing himself very nicely and really dominating his zone.

28:44Kubasi has been fabulous and possibly even better than anticipated. He's had to endure an awful lot. He's still a teenager, like Lamine Yamal. And he's had a tough ask in his career. He's had to be in charge of a very high defensive line for Barcelona. And really playing for Spain, in a way, he has slightly less demands on him in that sense. And he's really thrived. He's really thrived against very good players. A couple of perhaps unsung heroes. Pedro Porro has probably surprised a lot of people because he's been both authoritative at the back and really, really very dynamic. I've been impressed with Alex Baena, who is a very talented playmaker, but you wouldn't call him an automatic choice at Atletico Madrid.

29:34I think he's done his role with great discipline, very, very hard work, and he showed the flashes of creativity, which is really his strength. And really, he's been in the side because Nico Williams has not been fully fit, and I think he's really risen to the occasion. and in terms of Lamine then we've teased this already you're currently writing a piece that will be on the times website for listeners to read by the time this podcast is out what a fascinating tournament he's had I spoke to so many of our journalists throughout who've kind of kept reminding me when I was shooting for my hot takes and this is definitely going to happen everyone's saying Tom just calm down this is a long tournament this is a marathon and actually with his kind of fitness issues at the start, it kind of looks like maybe has peaked perfectly for him.

30:23He looked pretty sharp in that game against France. It's now all teed up for this battle with Messi in the final. Just tell us a little bit about the piece that you've written for the Times website, but also about this remarkable young player who just at 19 could be about to be a World Cup and European Championship winner. Yeah, well, I popped to his hometown yesterday, you know, which was in baking heat and quite sort of a quite sort of siesta mood. And I spoke to some of the people who have known Lamine all his life. And, you know, really, for a lot of them, it's it's no it's it's less remarkable now that they've seen his astonishing, precocious rise.

31:05And and they now just look at him as as as an unfathomably young grown up. And I think there's a lot of admiration for how he has taken so much in his stride, including all the trappings of fame and wealth and all the rest of it. And, you know, how they recognize the genial guy who is quite heavily protected and protected, you know, 24-7. And, you know, he's a very significant poster boy and representative of Spain and his generation of Spaniards. I wouldn't say there's any concern whatsoever that, you know, he's had quiet periods during the tournament. There is an adaptation always from when you're with a very stylized club team like Barcelona, which, you know, who play increasingly towards Lamine and around Lamine to adapt to a national team who don't play together so much.

32:01But yes, you're right. He is, you know, he seems to be building up nicely, building back to fitness and the stamina that goes with that. And I mean, I think what will be interesting, Argentina won't be shy of putting physical pressure on him. It'll be interesting to see how he responds to that. You know, he's generally pretty cool, has good sort of song for. He gets kicked a lot because that's the way he plays. but uh you know i think you know that there's that there'll be a few little little peaks at him i'm sure and and that'll be that'll be i don't i don't think argentina are particularly good at fullback um so i think whoever whoever takes charge of lamin will probably have some help and of course that will open up space for others yeah you could see them swarming around him couldn't you i mean and maybe it may be an impossible question to answer but gregor robertson loves it when i throw these out there so i'm going to do the same to you i mean how how How good is Laminomel?

32:58How good can he be? Because all the kind of comparisons will be with Lionel Messi and their routes through La Masia and things like that. You follow Spanish football. You've seen some of the modern greats of the game. How good is this kid? Oh, I think he's fantastic. And I think there is room for him to get better. And provided he has the right guidance and doesn't go off the straight and narrow. And he is a good club for that. And also a club that is, partly thanks to Lamine, becoming a little bit more stable. He currently has a very understanding club manager in Hansi Flick, who has taken naturally special attention in Lamine's development, pacing him properly.

33:47But he is, of course, an inheritor of an incredibly saturated calendar. So, you know, there is always that unknown. How can his style of football cope with so many matches, so many extra matches, such a heavier fixture for his club side, fixture list for his club side and for the national side? So I guess that's the slightly boring answer to the unknown bit. Yeah, interesting. You mentioned managers there and controlling and keeping an eye over these young players. I wanted to ask about Luis Dele Fuente, the Spain manager. So much in recent days with Thomas Tuchel's failings with England. Lots of people pointing out that Tuchel, Ancelotti, Pochettino, these club guys who were brought into the World Cup, failing when they were really tasked with their biggest, biggest moment.

34:40And here you have a guy who lots of parallels were drawn in the English media, of course, during that Euros of Southgate versus Dele Fuente, the kind of guys who rose up through the ranks of the kind of football associations. de la fuente found a way to win that final probably because he had the best of players in simple terms but this this is a remarkable coaching journey isn't it for a guy who until this was relatively unknown is that fair would you say in footballing terms oh yes yes absolutely i mean there's two there's two aspects to that um i mean there is this peculiar thing of the spain national team being i wouldn't say less passionately followed because it's a big country and it's a big football country and people do get very very excited when the national team uh do well but there you know there is that there is a dominant narrative of the big clubs and and one of those big clubs barcelona have to feign a sort of indifference to the spain national team because they have to represent catalonia anyway so you do have this peculiar situation that what goes on with the spain national team is something that um is very apparent obviously every other summer because They tend to be successful at national tournaments, but it is slightly marginal for the rest of the time.

35:52And I certainly compared with England, say, I think the focus is lighter for most of the year on the national team. So there's that aspect. The status of national team manager is certainly not so scrutinised, I think. There is also a habit of in-house national managers. And the clear benefit of that is if you are like De La Fuente and if you have come through the age groups, you really do have a deep bank of trust with so many of the players because there's a consistency of selection as well from the age group side. So, you know, while, yes, he is not glamorous and he's not very glamorous in his bearing either.

36:35You know, he looks like a suburban bank manager. He does a little bit, yes. I wondered whether you were going to go for it, Ian. I've got to say, I was thinking, I know what he's thinking. I know what he's thinking. But yeah, you're quite right. But I mean, but a popular figure, presumably in Spain and with Spanish media and things, we're talking about, you know, English fans' reactions to Thomas Tuchel. I mean, is this guy, is that unassuming nature mirrored in the kind of response to him despite, you know, this? Yes, actually, I think unassuming is perhaps not that. You know, he's pretty, you know, he speaks with authority.

37:10He looks, you know, he gives off a certain toughness as well. He doesn't suffer fools. You know, he's fairly gracious most of the time with the media. But, you know, he'll clench his jaw when something displeases him. But yes, I mean, you know, his achievements speak for themselves. There's not a lot of criticizing of him. And also, it's not as if people are, you know, drumming up a long list of possible alternatives. There is an attachment very much to having a Spaniard in charge of the national team. And of course, there are so many very, very good Spanish coaches. But you don't hear it said, oh, maybe we should go for Xavi Alonso or whatever.

37:58But there's no reason to replace him at the moment. But above all, the players know him very well. They've known him since they were young and influenceable, which is a really important thing. And they know how he's going to play as well. you know there is a there is a loyalty to what you might loosely call the the spanish style they you know they want to play possession football he's not he's not presented them with anything radically odd yeah it's all cohesive and it all works just on his point of view then you know if he ends up a world cup winner as well there's it would there be any sense from his part that i've done it all been there done it got the t-shirt got the trophies got the medals let me at a club job let me at a big club job you know kind of thing or or will this be are we in dynasty territory here with this spain setup yeah there's there's no indication that that um that he's restless and certainly nor that the federation are restless to to do something new um also there hasn't there's been no real trumpet blowing about come and get me i deserve a big glamorous club job you know there is there is there are there is a history of uh real madrid for instance employing former or future Spanish national coaches.

39:12So, you know, I guess the next time Real Madrid are looking for a new coach, which current rate will be in about six months' time, possibly he might be a candidate. But no, I don't think this is a boat that's going to be rocked unless something absolutely disastrous happens on Sunday. In terms of that toughness that you talked about with De La Fuente, they will need that in the team, won't they, in this final against Argentina? we talked about them hounding and hoarding around Lamine, Jamal and some tackles flying in. You can't imagine that Argentina are going to change their approach at all in this game.

39:47Are Spain well-equipped to combat that? We obviously saw them taking on the kind of, I don't want to say inferior role to France, but they absolutely did a job on them to use that English expression. Are Spain equipped now going into this final with probably everyone going, ah, Spain are the favourites now. Argentina, oh God, they're this side. It always comes back, they kick you and they've got Lionel Messi. No, you know, that's no good. Everyone, every neutral and probably every Spaniard will be looking at Spain and going, this is our final. Spain's set up for that. Yeah, I think I don't think they're easily rattled.

40:20You know, I think that, you know, there is the possibility of a sort of Messi or factor. You know, these are all footballers who have grown up regarding Messi as one of the two best players in the world and probably the majority of them. as the number one of their lifetime. So, you know, there might be a bit of that. But, you know, I don't know. Do you think Marc Cocorello is going to say, oh, Messi, that's scary. Not really his style, is it? No. So, no, I think, you know, they will be quite composed. They could be undone by two or three moments of brilliance. You know, they could be surprised by a well-worked counter.

41:04you know kubasi could suddenly find himself in the wrong place which which really hasn't happened to him a lot so yeah i mean i i think probably the consensus would be that they would be narrow favorites and and and i would be surprised to see them you know baffled or or really under the cosh or without without solutions i mean they do have their dogmas you know we are in for long periods of passing the ball around apparently inconsequentially you know this is this is what you get with with spain but uh you know that's that's how they impose control yeah absolutely you could just see mark cucuraya becoming a real madrid legend before he's even kicked a ball for the club by shackling leonard messi and helping spain win a world cup final just finally ian on this game a prediction you say spain are favorites do you see them winning this game?

41:55Yes I do I sort of think Argentina will score but if you want something specific let's go for 2-1 Spain 2-1 Spain I love a bit of specifics. Ian Hawkey thank you very much absolutely fascinating I'm just going to do it there Ian in case I chop it up and I'm just going to ask you a final question on France now Ian I just wanted to ask a final question in this chat with you on France they're obviously going into this dreaded third fourth place playoff with England um lots of talk we mentioned De La Fuente in our chat about Spain lots of chat about Thomas Tuchel as well Didier Deschamps reign as France manager comes to an end now perhaps not in the glorious fashion that many of us expected where a kind of big question this but where is French football at we've obviously watched this forward line and been dazzled and amazed by it is is there a succession plan in place what is the thought thinking in french football with where they go from here because he has been such a big part of everything that they've done for the last however many years it's been i think above all gratitude and you do have to take a slightly long perspective because he's been there for so long but you you do need to go back really to before he was appointed the last world cup without Deschamps in charge was a total catastrophe if you remember 2010 a mutiny of players plays players going on strike refusing to train in full glare of the television cameras after that you had the Laurent Blanc interlude where there was also there was there were bad dynamics in the dressing room and Laurent Blanc didn't really handle it very well so you know let's let's talk about the Deschamps peace dividend um that you know it has been it has been considerable and you know and he's won a world cup and got to another final and may pick up another uh medal here although i don't think you know if he does get the bronze medal that's gonna have pride of place on his mantelpiece so so i think you know there will be a lot of gratitude also i i think what's um i mean clearly the defeat against spain was was pretty overwhelming and unexpected but he has you know he has he has left france with memories of possibly the most exciting watchable tournament he's been in charge of you know a consistent criticism is that that you know he's he's applied the handbrake too readily i don't think that was true of this world cup certainly not compared with with other deschamps campaigns so yeah you know great credit to him and and in terms of of legacy you know that's that front four has has several tournaments left in them the other the other sort of legacy isn't you know this isn't of his making is that we do have a national team which is really dominated by a single player.

44:46Kylian Mbappe is very very important both as a power broker and clearly as as a superstar so um you know it's it's uh he's not he's not the manager of France but he's you know he's he's he's a captain in a sense an international cricket captain as a captain you know. Absolutely it was so interesting wasn't it Deschamps he I think at one point he did a bow down on the touchline when Mbappe walked off and substituted. I mean, does Mbappe pick the next coach? I wouldn't have thought so, but I imagine his voice would be heard. I mean, you know, there has been a long-term expectation that Zinedine Zidane fits the bill in all sorts of ways.

45:26His success rate in a relatively short period of time at Real Madrid is second to none. And of So this is another way of picking international managers, isn't it? Is the ex-playing idol. And you'd have to say Deschamps has made it really work for France. And if that has set a mould, then that will be part of his legacy too. Always a pleasure to hear from Ian Hawkey there. He was pretty persuasive on Spanish strength, but I still think it'll be Argentina. We will be back on Monday at the more regular afternoon time slot. we're back in the studio Gregor Robertson Tom Allnut and Tony Cascarino will be with me to discuss the World Cup final and look back over our favourite moments from the tournament too we'll be dishing out some of those fond awards we always try and finish a tournament with so please do send in your suggestions to me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk but for now thanks to Matt Lawton Paul Hurst and Ian Hawkey for joining me today thank you too for listening we hope you enjoy the final and we'll see you tomorrow

46:39While every other channel is fighting for your customer's attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.