WORLD CUP DAY 5: Cape Verde joy and waiting for Messi

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1:21Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is day five of our daily World Cup shows, your essential morning briefing on the 2026 tournament. I'm Tom Clarke and on today's show I chat to Paul Hurst before holders Argentina and Lionel Messi start their campaign. And I hear from Michael Grant in the Scotland camp. But before that, let's catch you up on last night's action. Four games, four draws, but all of them with plenty of interesting moments. We had our first 0-0, but I'm not too downbeat because debutante's Cape Verde got a brilliant point against Spain.

1:57Some amazing stories in the Cape Verde team, including 40-year-old goalkeeper Vosinha. He didn't turn professional until he was 25, but he produced a brilliant display to deny one of the favourites. You can read about him and Pico Lopez, the centre-back born in Ireland and recruited via LinkedIn. Their stories are on the Times website now. That result in Group H was followed by a one-all draw between Saudi Arabia and Uruguay. Saudi Arabia looking pretty good in that first half, but Uruguay battled back. Our chief sports reporter Martin Ziegler was there and noticed a fair few empty seats in the ground.

2:31I'm just coming back from the Miami Stadium, witnessing Uruguay against Saudi Arabia, their opening match of the tournament for both teams. Interesting one for several reasons. questions again for FIFA over their ticketing policy and empty seats. Also interesting to see how Saudi Arabia having spent so much money on the Saudi Pro League in the last three years, had they improved since Qatar when they got that famous winner their opening match? I think the answer to that is not really. They did well to take the lead through El Amri but actually Uruguay ended up much stronger. Max Arugio got the equaliser and then it was backs against the wall really for the Saudi Arabians and they were no doubt happy to get away with the draw in the end in front of their watching sports minister Prince Abdul Aziz.

3:27Now in terms of the tickets that I mentioned, the empty seats, I mean there were thousands of empty seats in the first half, perhaps because was there was a traffic problem at road accidents before kickoff that might have contributed to it and they certainly filled up for half time but FIFA did confirm that their official attendance was 1 ,700 below capacity. Now before the kickoff I looked on the FIFA's official ticket platform to see how many tickets were available for the game and there was just seven. A couple priced at$600 and the rest price at$450. So you can ask the question, how come there's only seven tickets available if there's 1 ,700 empty seats?

4:15Now, there have been allegations that FIFA is dumping unselled tickets for unpopular matches on secondary ticket websites so they can sell them for less money than they do on their own platform. FIFA has refused to confirm or deny this and I think this will only answer the questions that we've had before on this issue. It was two more draws in Group E as Belgium's fading golden generation came back for a point against a wonderfully dramatic and theatrical Egypt side. Celebration of the tournament so far going to Emam Aschauer in this one. Scores for Egypt, does a swaggering walk to celebrate, gets shoved to the ground by his teammates and then jumped on.

4:56Chaotic and pretty brilliant, I've got to say. The final game of the night though, it was great fun on the pitch as New Zealand and Iran finished 2-2. It's worth watching the highlights of this one. But the most telling incident came after the game as Iran captain Mehdi Taremi and manager Amir Galanoi revealed that they are being thrown out of the United States immediately after the game with Galanoi calling the team the most oppressed at the World Cup. Taremi said the treatment was a disaster and added that FIFA president Gianni Infantino who was at the game, went into the dressing room in a bid to try and help the team.

5:33Galanoi said his team were not able to do a recovery session and that it had not been explained to them why they had been asked to return to Tijuana, their training base in Mexico, a day before their intended return flight. That was due to leave Los Angeles International Airport at 11pm local time. Peter Rutzler was there reporting for the Times and sent me this note on a remarkable story of this World Cup. I've just left the press conference room at the SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles following Iran's 2-2 draw with New Zealand. A game that actually passed with not as much incident as we expected.

6:09There were protests outside the ground. There were a number of pre-revolutionary flags, there were unauthorised flags that were banned by FIFA. But hundreds of supporters still managed to smuggle them into the ground. But the match passed without incident. Actually, the general mood in the ground was very positive and upbeat and supportive of the Iranian team. But then in the press conference after the match, the coach Amir Gholanayi revealed to us that Iran are being forced to leave the US earlier than they would have wanted. They intended to leave tomorrow lunchtime, Tuesday lunchtime, but were being prevented from undergoing a recovery session.

6:54He then said that they were speaking quite calmly to the media, that they were the most oppressed team at the World Cup. Of course, Iran's preparations for this tournament have been disrupted. they have had members of staff I'm told that 11 members of their delegation were prevented from obtaining U.S. visas even just reaching their hotel took time it's a 45 minute flight from Tijuana their base in Mexico which they obviously moved to having originally been slated to be based in Arizona it's a 45 minute flight to LA from there but it took them a lot longer than that to reach the hotel in fact it took two hours for them to travel from la airport after they landed to their hotel in the mix zone the captain maybe to ramey called it their treatment a disaster suggesting it was unfair they the team had according to the coach and the captain wanted two days preparation in the u.s before the match he also said that the delays in travel were due to immigration.

8:06It was put to him that it was immigration and he said, OK, you know it then. Interestingly, Gianni Infantino, who was here, went into the Iranian dressing room and praised the team. Tarami also said and called on FIFA to do more to help the team. There was a flight booked to leave from LA International Airport at 11 o 'clock. So So the assumption is that the players would have and the squad have taken that back to Mexico. So a pretty dramatic end to this game. The group is still wide open. And of course, the interesting thing is Iran are due to return here to face Belgium on Sunday, which should be an interesting game to follow and particularly how the Iranian team make it into the country and prepare for that match.

8:58Thanks to Peter and Martin for those updates from around the grounds. You can read their reports and the news on the Times website now. Loads more content on there as well, including Gregor Robertson's brilliant dispatch from Croatia in search of Luka Modric. But now it's time to hear from our Scottish football correspondent, Michael Grant, and find out whether he's got used to Scotland being top of Group C. We're less than 48 hours on from that historic, momentous and very tense 1-0 win against Haiti. we heard from Gregor on the night slightly subdued I must say we got a little note from Johnny how are you reflecting on things now?

9:36you've had a bit of time to digest it you've written some brilliant pieces for the Times website how do you look back on that win and that night now? Well I mean fundamentally Tom with pleasure and no little relief to be honest with you because I had dreaded dropping points in that game from a Scottish supporters point of view but also from a journalistic point of view I think it would have become a very difficult tournament to cover if Scotland had immediately dropped points to Haiti I think there would be a lot of negativity kind of waving across the Atlantic from home and I think it would have just caused real strain in the relationships between the media and Steve Clarke and the players and all that so thank God we've been spared that, you know, from a selfish point of view, but also the supporters I think was an element of relief I think there was an awful lot of tension in the ground on Saturday night, although I must admit that the press box is behind Glass Tom, which I think is quite common in a lot of the American stadiums, you know, and I do think that that kind of detached us a little bit from the noise and it was louder in the Foxborough Stadium than we maybe realised in the press box.

10:57So the atmosphere was there, but I think the tension was there until the very end. And you saw the kind of jubilation at full time and the relief because Steve Clarke, I think, is entitled to stress that this was being perceived and portrayed as a must-win game. And they did win it. It wasn't an easy watch. It was hard going. They can play better than that. They will have to play better than that, given the two teams that they're up against next. And, you know, there's also an argument that maybe a 1-0 is not going to be enough because goal difference, if they finish on three points, goal difference is going to come into the equation and maybe a narrow goal difference is going to see them go out.

11:35But they won, you know, and we don't win many games at World Cups. We win even fewer opening games at World Cups. So, you know, let's enjoy it while it lasts. You can see there's a bit of sunshine behind me. We don't get much of that in Scotland either. So let's enjoy all of this while we've got it. absolutely sunshine and three points top of the group why not enjoy it indeed and i'm going to talk about some of those games to come in a minute in the approach but just the final thing on that night you know you were there albeit behind the glass so many of us back home have seen and reveled in the brilliant renditions of the national anthem from the fans in the ground so often a figure a fixture sorry of these tournaments now everyone you know eulogizing about the Scottish fans and their brilliant renditions of the anthem.

12:20What was it like in the camp on the night? You know, you get the privilege of speaking to managers, to players, you get to be in and around them. What was it like in the immediate aftermath? Was their feelings relief or were they able to get into some of the euphoria and elation as well? Yeah, well, I think I saw Steve Clarke coming into the press conference and, you know, I think a manager sometimes has to put on a little bit of a knack. He can't come in cartwheeling through the room and look too pleased with himself. He has to give the impression that we knew that we were capable of this. And the players, I think, were quite...

13:01They weren't subdued, but they were quite serious and professional from what we gather from the guys that came through the mix zone. But it was only job done in terms of getting three points on the opening night. I mean, they aren't here just to beat Haiti. I mean, they've got to try and give everything they have to get out of Group C, and that's making history for Scotland because they've never made it out of the opening group. In terms of the supporters, you know, listen, I'm sometimes wary and thinking, well, you know, do we overplay this, the exceptionalism of the Scottish supporters and so on?

13:36And I dare say that if your social media was only seeing the Holland supporters, for example, you'd be going, well, these guys are the best in the world, look how powerful they are. But I think we're entitled to say that Scottish supporters are pretty outstanding. You know, the numbers were exceptional, Tom, in the stadium. They surprised us. And I think they surprised the SFA as well, because the SFA don't have, they couldn't have detailed information about how many tickets that ended up in Scottish hands, because they only deal with the allocation, the official allocation, which is quite small.

14:09But it became clear about an hour before the kickoff that there were Scotland fans everywhere in that stadium. And that the Haiti support, which I thought would be really prominent, having watched them in a friendly the week before, when they were terrific, they barely registered in the ground at all. It felt like a Scottish home game, you know? And you've seen the stuff, you'll have seen, Tom, that the 5 ,000 of them went to the Red Sox baseball game in the Fenway Park on Sunday and took that over. So it's lovely that a wee Scottish kid caught a home run, you know I mean it's just like stuff like that is genuinely quite heartwarming you know I could be pretty cynical about stuff but but that's great you know and without trying to put a cloud on things maybe the narrative will change a wee bit if we lose to Morocco then suddenly everything gets a bit more serious and you can sober up a little bit but it's nice and being out at the Scotland camp today you know there was a nice kind of light feel about things we spoke to Stephen Naismith the assistant coach we spoke to Ben Gann and Doak and there was just a kind of lightness about the place which is nice because we don't tend to get that at tournaments we tend to start poorly and you're up against it straight away yeah I've always thought Michael that a long journey to a pub always makes the pint taste even better and I think you could definitely say the Scottish fans have had a long journey to this point so you were definitely allowed for them to enjoy this moment being top of the group you've teased it there a couple of times we have to move on now to talk about what's to come and I think it's fascinating you know that pressure is off now let's talk first about tactics formations and changes it was such a big topic of our Scotland preview shows Gregor Robertson our colleague of course being a big fan of going for it go for it be bold play 442 and then as soon as you'd won Michael I don't know whether you listen to the podcast but he's talking about chucking it out the window I don't think there's ever been a formation or a system that's been so eagerly anticipated, so called for, and then so immediately ditched amongst the fan base as this 4-4-2 amongst Scotland fans.

16:12And I say that as an Englishman. We've gone through some over the years in the tournament. But do you think that will be the case? Do you think Steve Clarke will go back to 4-5-1 and try a different approach in the next two games because they are going into them as the underdog? Yes, I do think he'll do that. And Stephen Naismith kind of dropped hints about that today and talked about how comfortable the players are with different systems because they have played different systems under Steve Clarke. So I think that, yeah, I think he will put an extra body into midfield and go back to one up front.

16:47Although, you know, he went to Denmark in the opening game of the qualifiers and played with two up front, to everybody's surprise, and got a 0-0 draw that night. So that will be in the back of his head too. Yeah, it's right that, you know, you've won and I think there is a sense that there'll be a bit more freedom about Scotland, the kind of nervous energy and just the pressure not to lose to Haiti or sorry to beat Haiti, that's lifted now and they'll feel good about themselves all week going into the Morocco game but it is that kind of almost a contradiction of right, okay the pressure's off the freedom's off, the handbrake's off okay right now let's go to 4-5-1 and And I actually said to Naismith today, I said, do you think supporters will understand if you do that?

17:35Because there is that kind of thing that Gregor's talking about, like be brave and go for it. And some supporters will want that and they'll say, well, we've just won three games in a row with 4-4-2. But this is a big step up in opposition, you know? I mean, excuse me, Morocco are number seven in the world rankings, you know, semi-finalists last year. People are talking about missed potential winners this time. you've got to acknowledge that and be sensible so if he does to go 4-5-1, take out one of the strikers and perhaps put Christian into the midfield, to me that would seem sensible and pragmatic but as I say the Denmark game is an interesting one and I just wonder if it might be in his head as well So just to clarify, you mentioned it there for the kind of neutral fans who were following along with Scotland, that would be the tactical change Ben Gannon don't would stay obviously he had a great game was definitely one of the high points of that Haiti performance.

18:28Would McTominay still sit deeper alongside Lewis Ferguson in midfield? How would it work, just for my understanding? There are options, because Christie's quite a versatile player. I think he would probably, say he keeps Adams, because Lawrence Shanklin did not have a great game against Haiti. Adams did really well at the goal. If he keeps Adams, then yeah, I think he would want to get McTominay a little bit further up. McTominay wasn't prominent either. So then you would have Ferguson, McGinn, Christy, McTominay, am I missing somebody? Ganondoke. Ganondoke, yeah. I think Ganondoke keeps his place because he can unlock defences.

19:19If we get a draw, then you're on four points. and that's probably going to be enough to go through. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in talking about getting a draw, we've just watched tonight Cape Verde get a draw against Spain. Scotland under Steve Clarke, one of the things they've done very well is perform and deliver against the biggest sides, against sides that you maybe would expect Scotland to lose to. You know, take the Cape Verde example. Scotland can go and beat Morocco and Brazil and finish top on nine points, Michael. Come on, this is a time to dream, isn't it? This is the tournament for it.

19:50But all jokes aside from an Englishman, that is a true case, isn't it? That this side, under Steve Clarke, does do well in the big occasion against teams that are, on paper, better than them. Yes, they do. I mean, they beat Spain in the last European qualifying campaign. They beat Denmark. They drew at Wembley in Euro 2020. and 20. They've got not traditionally Scotland do okay in the second game's tournaments. They tend to muck up the first one, but they tend to respond pretty well and do okay in the second one. It's really weird, Tom, because I think it's still too early to say how this tournament will be remembered for Scotland.

20:41Obviously, there's only been one game. If there was to be a couple of poor defeats and they don't really lay a glove on Morocco or Brazil, then I think people will be negative about it again. They'll say, well, OK, there was a scratchy, narrow win against Haiti and then two poor defeats, you know. But that is a glass half-empty way of looking at it because at the moment they've got three points from one match. It's not beyond them to get a draw with Morocco. I don't think at their best if they bring... I don't know, you get a good vibe about them at the moment, about the kind of mood and the confidence and people feel in a good place.

21:18You know, Garen Doak was talking today about how he said, I just feel good, you know, I mean, I feel confident. He said that they did a kind of warm weather training camp in Florida, which he said has made him feel that his body's right again after a lot of injuries were born with all season, you know. McTominay, I think, has got main character syndrome, you know. I mean, I think McTominay's the kind of guy that just has got it in him to step up, you know. You nearly scored the goal, didn't it? You hit the post early on. So it's there. It is there for them, but you're never quite sure what you're going to get with Scotland.

21:57Listen, they put themselves in a really good place and a place that we're not that used to being in. We're normally on the ropes after the opening game of a tournament, and this time we're not. So let's see how they react to that. Yeah, absolutely. As you say, in a great place. top of Group C, a group that includes Brazil and Morocco. It is an amazing place to be. I think any Scottish fan, any Scottish journalist, any part of the playing staff and coaching staff, if we'd said that to them after the first game, would be absolutely delighted. If I could ask you for one thing you would like to see from the next two games, because they are kind of grouped similarly now, now that you've got the three points, what would it be?

22:38I asked Gregor Robertson this question before the Haiti game and he said, be bold, be brave. What is the one thing you'd like to see? obviously you'd like to see a win but is it is it McTominay being main character is it you know stick with 4-4-2 what is the one thing you'd like to see Michael just to wrap us up well I mean yeah the obvious thing is qualification yeah I would like I'd just like them to play well I'd like to see them play well against Morocco especially and I think if they do that they've got a real chance I mean this might come back to haunt me but I watched the Morocco AFCON Nations final against Senegal and Senegal did a good job on just breaking them up and never letting them get going and Morocco just didn't really get into any gear in that final, now maybe that's above what Scotland are capable of doing in terms of frustrating them but maybe it's not you know so that is it I'm not hung up on 4-4-2 at all Tom, I think the more it's more about attitude and you know yeah just attitude and spirit from the manager and from the players and just come off the pitch feeling like well okay we give that a go you know even if it does end up in a narrow defeat you think okay god they took it to them you know they tried to go toe to toe with Morocco who are one of the best teams in the world that would be it you know but obviously one thing would be qualification or you know secure a place in the at the very least in the top half of the third placers that go through and then take it from there, plot the route to the final Yeah, absolutely it's so exciting for Scotland fans it's all there out in front of them now that they've beaten Haiti, Michael Grant thank you very much for joining me, always great to hear from you you can read the latest from Michael on the Times website now and we'll be hearing from him again during the rest of the tournament, we're going to take a little break now but we'll be back with more from the world cup just after this stick with us

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26:28Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm delighted to now be joined by the football reporter who's normally based in Manchester covering City and United for this World Cup though. He is out chasing Lionel Messi. Many of the world's top defenders have done it but now it's the chance for Paul Hurst to do the same. hursty hello welcome to the show for the first time this tournament hi tom how you doing yeah i'm good mate i'm good um trying to speak a little bit louder we just had a listener get in touch with me on social media saying that you can always almost tell that i'm trying not to wake up the rest of the people in my house what do you value your your job or your marriage well it's all going so okay so far but i should just you know make a public declaration of gratitude to my wife amy thank you very much it's early days it's early days as well we're only a couple of days into this let's check in how the marriage is doing after the quarterfinals maybe but yeah we are recording this just as we head towards midnight we've got two games down i've got saudi arabia against uruguay on in the background saudi arabia one nil up um but we're here to talk with you about your world cup experiences so far and with all that in mind you know talk about all the games before we get into Argentina and Lionel Messi and their defence of their World Cup crown.

27:49How have you found the World Cup so far? How have you found America? We're chatting now with you in Kansas, but you've travelled about. How have you found things so far? Give the listeners a bit of a broad update. It's been really enjoyable. Kansas City has really embraced the World Cup. It's got four teams based here, Argentina, England, Netherlands and Algeria. and there's a huge fan park here, fan fest. You know, there's posters everywhere advertising the World Cup bars that are really full of people and the matches are on television in there as well. I know that sounds daft because it is a World Cup, but there's so much other sport going on in America that even this World Cup's not necessarily going to be number one, but it is always on in the bars when we've been in them here.

28:42And yeah, it's just a city that's really embraced it. And you can just walk in down the streets. It feels like a World Cup. You see loads of Argentinians. 25 ,000 Argentinians have come here over the last 24 hours ahead of their first game. So there is a real kind of party vibe to it. And yeah, previously to that, I went to Alabama. I flew to Atlanta, then got a Greyhound bus down to Alabama, a little college town called Auburn, which hosted the final Argentina warm-up game against Iceland, and got caught in a bit of a monsoon there, which was not ideal, about three hours before kick-off, but it went ahead.

29:24You're a Yorkshire man, you're a Yorkshire man who lives in Manchester, Hurstley, come on. I've obviously got four brollies with me, just in case, you know. But that was a really good experience. It's not just a small college town, not really into soccer, but everyone just went and bought tickets for that match because it was their last chance to see Lionel Messi. Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of the man himself, I made that kind of cheeky intro there about you having to follow in the footsteps of many of the world's finest defenders by chasing the man himself. But that is the task that we've given you to follow Argentina and Messi.

30:04What has it been like? What is the kind of Messi fever like? because he is such a big part of this World Cup. He was such a big part of the last World Cup. FIFA are so desperate for him to do well. Where are we at on the Messi fever scale, would you say? I'm sure that FIFA were delighted when Messi said that he was going to play because there was a doubt right up until two or three weeks ago about whether he would actually join up with the squad, whether he thought he was good enough to continue playing into his sixth World Cup. but when he did declare that he was playing everyone was very excited about that I just think back to the first training session that they had here in Kansas City last Thursday nearly a week before their first match and I was there there was about 200 media there and they were all waiting for Messi just to walk out of the dressing room onto the pitch We were only allowed into the training session for 15 minutes, so the cameras literally only got that shot.

31:10But they were happy with it. They were going live on Argentinian radio and online saying, yeah, Leo Messi's here, he's walked out onto the pitch, and that was it, basically. They'd all track there just to watch him do that. So he's such a big droller, isn't he? In terms of sponsors, he's got a deal with Michelob as well. You see him on television, on the adverts here and on posters on the side of the tram and shops as well. So, you know, he's literally everywhere around the city. And I'm sure that extends to all the parts of America as well. Yeah, you've just been to the press conferences with Lionel Scaloni, the Argentina manager.

31:54What did he have to say? I'm sure there were probably plenty of questions about Messi. So, you know, what's he saying about Messi? you mentioned there, you teased the fact that his fitness had been an issue coming into this but he said he's going to play Scaloni said he's going to play so almost certainly he'll start on the bench Yeah no doubt, I think he'll I was talking to an Argentinian journalist about this the other day and I said well he's Messi's 38 now, he turns 39 during the tournament, surely Scaloni will rest him for at least one of these group stage games and he was, the journalist he would say that now he will play, if he wants to play he'll play and he thinks he's back to full fitness now he seems really at ease with himself, really calm I think not having that pressure of trying to win a World Cup on his shoulders which obviously Maradona had done before him that certainly made him a bit more carefree going into this World Cup if anything it's a free hit and Scaloni was saying today he said that he came out with a really nice line he said that it's not just the people of Argentina who want to see Lionel Messi play it's the rest of the planet too so I just think yeah it is kind of set up for him to be to set the stage again and will Argentina play in a way that will allow that to happen because you know we talk about it we did so in the preview show with yourself and Tom Allnott talking about some of these big figures, Cristiano Ronaldo as well.

33:30But modern football doesn't always allow for players of that ilk, no matter how good you are, to just kind of stand and wait to receive the ball. It relies on a lot of your teammates doing a lot of work. We've seen already at this World Cup that fitness, fatigue, things are going to play a factor. Are Argentina set up to play that way? Can they play with nine outfield men just allowing for Messi to do what he does? Yeah, I think they've got a really industrious central midfield a lot of energy in it with Enzo Fernandes, Alexis McAllister Rodrigo de Paul they will be the cornerstone of that team the real engine room and then either side of Messi you'll probably have Lautaro Martinez and maybe Thiago Almada or even Julian Alvarez, you could have a front three of Alvarez, Martinez and Messi and that would be mouth watering wouldn't it?

34:23Certainly I think defensively they're quite solid in the centre of the pitch anyway. So that does allow him to... He basically does what he wants, doesn't he? He's in the right to do what he wants, to drift into pockets. And certainly in that Iceland game, when he came off the bench, he was playing quite deep at times to the point where he was dropping right to the halfway line and taking the ball off the centre-half. So he would be everywhere. And he did get around the pitch quite well, quite easily then. So he's looking quite fit and quite fresh. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting position that we go into tomorrow night's fixtures, isn't it?

35:05Because you've got the two finalists in action. France are playing Senegal in the first game of the kind of night or the day, depending on where you are in the world. And then Argentina have got their game against Algeria. But it's intriguingly poised. I mean, I'm in this weird position of having watched all the teams so far. Germany obviously put on a brilliant performance against Curacao, but it was against Curacao. Brazil underwhelming against Morocco. Spain drawing with Cape Verde. We're kind of waiting for one of these big teams, either France to lay down a marker against Senegal. But Argentina with the chance against Algeria and it was interesting reading some of the lines from Scaloni talking about Algeria and about this game that you've just filed from the press conference because again I think a lot of maybe neutrals will be going well Argentina should beat Algeria quite comfortably but A, it's not as simple as that and B, we're sitting here with Saudi Arabia at half-time in the background and as you said in your piece, Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia the last time when they won the World Cup.

36:07So what kind of tests can they expect and how important do you think it is for Argentina to kind of lay down a marker? We are the holders and we should be considered one of the favourites for this tournament. Yeah, I think Scaloni said in his press conference he's not going to be won or lost in the first match. He was very tentative about that. I think, obviously, the Saudi Arabia defeat in the last World Cup will be played on his mind. I was at that match, and it was just one of the most incredible games I've ever been to. Nobody saw it coming, and they deserved to win Saudi Arabia. It wasn't a fluke by any stretch of the imagination.

36:46Obviously, the difference here is with this World Cup having 84 teams or whatever it is, isn't it? You only need, if you do lose that first match, then it doesn't really matter, does it? You know, you only have to win once to get through. But in terms of, yeah, in terms of prestige, I think it will be nice for them to lay down a marker. But Algeria, I think they're 28th in the world, something like that. And Scaloni was comparing them to Morocco, who obviously were very, very good against Brazil the other night. And they have a lot of pace on the wings. Rian Mahrez obviously stands out as a player that we all know who can cause a lot of trouble, even though he's 35 years old, I think.

37:31But they will be a difficult team to face. So I think if Argentina's scraped a 1-0 win, I think Scaloni will be happy with that tomorrow. Really interesting. We talked a lot about Messi, of course. What other players should I be getting excited about seeing or should I be focusing on thinking they're going to be really important? because that's so often the case at World Cups, isn't it? That we go into them with preconceived ideas about who's good and who's bad. Players we've maybe seen in the Premier League, players we've maybe seen in the Championship or elsewhere around Europe. We know Messi is the global superstar, but who else is going to have an impact on Argentina and who else should maybe the listeners be looking out for?

38:11Well, I think that he's an established name, obviously, but Lautaro Martinez is coming off a good season with Inter Milan. and he'll probably start over Julian Alvarez tomorrow just because he's in better form and he's not carried an injury, which Julian is. But there are a few other members of the squad. I mean, I love the fact that Nicolas Otamendi is there. You know, he's 38 years old. He's just left Benfica. He was at the press conference today talking in real kind of warrior terms about how the victory in Qatar was ingrained in their DNA or ingrained in their bodies after what they wanted.

38:54That will propel them to victory this time. You know, he's talking sort of semi-Churchilian almost at times when he was talking. So I love the fact that he's there. And he's probably going to start as well. He'd probably start ahead of Lissandro Martinez, which may come as a shock to some people. In terms of the lesser-known players, Valentin Barco, for me, He's a real firecracker. He was at Brighton a couple of years ago, but didn't do so well. And actually Manchester City were trying to sign him before that, but he ended up going to Brighton. And he can play in all manner of positions. He can play central midfield, left wing, left back.

39:35And he was really good in that warm-up game against Eisson. He's a real, real terrier. He's got a lot of energy. so I think when it comes to playing in this kind of climate against teams who might struggle towards the end of matches I think if you get him coming off the bench he could cause a lot of problems Nico Paz has had a really good couple of seasons for Como as well so it's kind of, there are two or three players who are on that periphery of breaking through but I think with Scaloni he just always wants to stick with the players that got him that title in 2022. I think he trusts them more than any other.

40:16That's why I think there's 16 players from the last squad who were in this squad. So I think it'll be more of the old guard starting the games, but then the newer players will probably come off the bench towards the end of it. Emi Martinez in goal as well, expecting that as well. Obviously a big character at the last workup, big character for Aston Villa. Yeah, he broke his finger, didn't he, in the Europa League final warm-up, which he must have hated. I love him as a person, honestly. I just think he's such a leader and he's such a force. He's got such an aura about him, hasn't he? And he winds the hell up out of opposition players as well, which is always nice to see, isn't it?

40:58I think you've got to have that if you're a real competitor. So, yeah, he trained with gloves on for the first time last Thursday. but Scaloni reckons he will be fit to play tomorrow so yeah, he'll be pushing to play I'm sure he'll have some kind of painkillers to numb the pain but I think he'll be fine, I think he'll start Yeah, it would be great to see him on the World Cup stage Hirstie, just to finish I wanted to ask you about another player who's very familiar to you, Erling Haaland you talked there about Otamendi so many of the stars and people that we're recognising at this tournament. I love the idea of you going to watch Nicholas Ottermenti, having written him off for Manchester City many years ago, I think.

41:45It's one of my favourite things about a World Cup. Two-fold, actually. One, I was discussing with Martin Ziegler last night, which is our Premier League support focusing on VAR. We hate VAR. And then it comes to these international tournaments and we love it. We're like, oh, this is great. Why can't they just implement it like this? And I'm thinking, Maybe it's because it's not about our teams anymore. Maybe it's not about the support and the manic support that we have for clubs in England. But the other favourite thing is all these players that we've written off over the years suddenly look like world beaters.

42:18But anyway, I come to my point because there's one player that we've never written off, Erling Haaland. Stael Solbakken, the Norway manager, James Geerbrandt, was at the press conference earlier and had been speaking ahead of the sides. Norway's first match, of course, in 28 years against Iraq. That's another one of the fixtures you've got to look forward to. in the next 24-hour cycle. He's talking about Erling Haaland in form in training. He said this quote, which I want you to know whether you think it's him blowing smoke up his arse bluntly or whether you think it could be genuine. He said he's had his best training session yesterday.

42:49During an 11 against 11 match, he scored the goal of the year. If it had been televised, it would have been the goal of the year. If it had hit Egil Selvik, who is the Norway goalkeeper, he would be dead. Fortunately, it went in the corner. I mean as a man who covers Manchester City quite a lot and obviously reported on Erling Haaland is that a bit of ego management there or do you think this is a guy who's actually coming into the World Cup desperate to score a bag load of goals it's probably a bit of both really he will love having his ego stroked like that but he will also be properly gunning for it certainly this season or last season he was always talking about it about having this chance and he was so crucial in getting them there wasn't in a really tough group um so he'll be relishing it and i can picture that i mean i'd i'd love to know how how close he was to the goalkeeper when he was wellying it a thousand miles an hour um but yeah i i can i could just see that he will really be be pumped for it and i i it's strange i know we spoke about dark horses before didn't we and maybe i don't know if they qualify as dark horses given that he's one of the best strikers in the world but I really do think they can go far, I think they can go maybe to the final even that far, I just think he's such a unifying force Harland, he really drags teams along but he's not the only one in that squad is he?

44:17There's so many good players in it you know I've covered Man City's game at Bordeaux Glimp till he was season, I think they've got three players in that squad as well so So, yeah, there's a lot there. And I'm really looking forward to see how Harland does in the World Cup because I think he would be brilliant for the tournament if they went deep. With his personality and his love of the game and this kind of fairy tale story, I think it'd be great if they went really far. I couldn't agree with you more. And Alison Rudd, you'd be delighted to hear, has adopted Norway as her new Denmark for this tournament.

44:57obviously the obvious logical pivot from her in that part of the world just no Denmark I'm just going to move across to Norway but listen it's a sensible choice it's a sensible choice firstly we'll leave it there loads and loads of games to look forward to there we mentioned France Senegal as well Iraq and Norway in action and you can hear from Paul Hurst in our live file and he'll be reporting from Argentina against Algeria and make sure you're listening to the game podcast tomorrow because you will find out whether I managed to stay awake for Austria against Jordan at 5am to complete the four matches that we've got to come.

45:32Hurstie, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too to all the rest of the Times team who joined me on this episode of The Game Daily during this World Cup. We'll be back tomorrow we'll hope to see you then.

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