WORLD CUP DAY 6: Messi, Haaland and Mbappe shine - over to you, Harry

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1:23France show why they're many people's favourites and Kylian Mbappe scores too. Norway show why they are dark horses and Erling Haaland also scores too. And then Lionel Messi shows why he's probably the greatest to ever play the game, playing in his sixth World Cup, a record, scoring his first World Cup hat-trick to go level with Miroslav Klose as the tournament's all-time leading scorer as Argentina beat Algeria 3-0. And hey, even Austria v Jordan was pretty good fun. In part two of this show, I hear from Martin Samuel, James Gearbrand and Paul Hurst, who witnessed three superstars in action. But first, in part one, we preview England's opening game with Croatia.

2:04Earlier, I caught up with our chief football correspondent, Jonathan Northcroft, and talked tactics, team selection and whether Harry Kane can put on his own World Cup masterclass. Johnny Northcroft, thank you for joining me. you've just touched down in Dallas ahead of the big one. We've seen so many big teams already. It's now it's time for England's turn. I was speaking to Matt Lawton, who's out there with you the other day. He was saying that slightly strangely how calm England's build-up has been, deliberately so from the FA and Thomas Tuchel. And I think probably until today's news about Tino Liveramento, there had been kind of no hiccups, no issues.

2:42Is that how you found it as well? And presumably you would say that's a pretty good thing, obviously until we had the Livermento news. Yeah, and I mean, look, the Livermento news is one of those that may be slightly outwith control, although we will ask and look into whether, you know, he should have gone, he's had a history of injuries, or what happened in training, we don't know yet. But until that point, you're right, Tom, it has been a really good camp, I think, in Florida. They arrived very happy in Kansas, and I have to say physically they look absolutely flying, absolutely flying makes me think that the conditions might not be as big a factor as we've worried about but we'll see the mood's been extremely buoyant particularly from tuchel um i mean he's been appearing every day in training and he did again today hands and i went to see him uh in his kind of uv um blocking hoodie with his uh you know there's a t-shirt over the top the only man to be able to brave the heat in a hoodie and a t-shirt um and there was a little bit i mean up training today you could see was a slightly more serious error than the previous sort of mess about him and anthony barry were in um sort of animated discussion about some tactical point so yeah there's been a little bit of a shift um towards sort of you know get your game heads on but a really smooth build-up so far until that that livermento news um and i think there has to be a bit of a pat on the back for that because it wasn't easy for england coming here and having the last possible sort of kickoff time there's a lot of time to fill i have my doubts as to how florida would work how the whole build-up would work so to get to this point with you know only that injury and a really good mood, I think, fair play.

4:31Yeah, really interesting to hear because so often in these previous tournaments, you've covered so many, Matt Lawton's done so many. Even I've done a few from the editing desk. This has not been the case, has it? And as you say, lots of doubts, and I'm sure fans listening to this would have been thinking, God, so much has happened and England still haven't played their first game yet. But your view is, even with Deliverimento news, England are in as good a shape as they could be going into this Croatia game. I think so. I think so. The biggest thing, as I said, is the physical aspect. They look in great condition.

5:01But yeah, I mean, we don't need to really go back over it too much. But Baden-Baden, I mean, that circus, South Africa, when the players are staging a coup, John Terry, the year before it starts. This camp's been more true to the sort of best of the Tuchel regime that I think we saw from September onwards, where he cracked it and he did get that happy camp together. And it's really worked so far. But as Harry Kane has been saying, you can talk all you like about before tournaments, but until you start, you don't really know. And that's his learning from being England's most experienced tournament player.

5:47He's very buoyant, but he's also right. we'll either look back on this as brilliant preparation or awful preparation and it will depend on the results it's always the way triumph or disaster always the way with England and we'll talk about your preview in a moment that you listeners can read on the Times website now but just coming back to one of the big factors the huge talking point that is always it always is before a first game the team what what do you what's your what's your thinking as it stands now we're recording this around midnight UK time. I chatted with Matt Lawton the other day, you know, various factors.

6:22Saka's fitness has been a talking point in the last couple of days. John Stones or no John Stones at the back and then the big debate around number 10. Where do you see it going? Yeah, look, Saka is the biggest doubt and that's one question in my mind. I think the other 11, other 10 names are kind of starting to sort of form. I mentioned Tuchel cracking things from the autumn onwards. Well, I think he's going to go back to a team that's pretty close to that 11 that played in Serbia and won 5-0 and really kick-started his reign. So that would be Rhys James. It would be Konza. Stones instead of Gehi, who played in Serbia, but he would have played Stones had he been fit.

7:09on the left O 'Reilly is a new element but then you've got the Anderson and Rice midfield as I say Kane I think it looks like being Gordon and then the one doubt is Saka because as Tuchel said he is not ready to start and finish games so I would expect Madureki to come in if it's not Saka but there could be other possibilities you know there could even be the big 10 the big 10 conversation oh yeah i left that as a little tease it looks like dude for me uh rightly so funnily enough in training today um they had the players paired off and they were doing this sort of pre-activation um where basically one one player to sort of push against another and then the other one pushed back and then they did a second game where they held hands and then had to try and do a sort of tug of war and of course they put jude together with Morgan Rogers.

8:08So it was great watching that. And of course, Morgan Rogers ended up on his backside on the turf because Jude pushed the hardest. Interesting. It was interesting watching the England media footage that they obviously control and has been very good at recent tournaments as well. There was a good kind of Q &A with Jude Bellingham and Morgan Rogers talking about the team. And they actually just look like good mates. They look like two young lads who get on really well. And I think probably for us journalists and for England fans, the idea of them competing with each other for this place can be true you know it makes me think of our pal gregor robson both things can be true you can be competing for a place but you can also be good mates who get on really well yeah absolutely and you know it's funny in football because you know i mean you had these stuff sharing i mean andy cool who never spoke to each other and and were teammates and strike partners and and and so on or you can have guys in competition with her mates and these two lads are both you know Midlanders uh a four-year-old Bellingham was actually a five-year-old Morgan Rogers birthday party I mean it's bizarre to think about isn't it um I think Morgan Rogers is is one of those really lovely kind of open people who gets on with just about everybody um and I think that's important for this situation and you know what Jude we don't get to know him quite as well as some of the players you know because he doesn't do a lot of media but he came across really well I felt in that Lions den with Morgan Orgers and there is a rapport between them and yeah Tuchel has said you have to have starters and finishers so maybe the way that they're looking at it is they'll end up sharing a position but I mean come on Jude will want to start yeah really interesting I feel sorry for any of the kids who were also at that birthday party that they were at, you know, listening to this, maybe thinking, where the hell did I go wrong, eh?

10:01Just coming back to the defence, Johnny, we talked about John Stones with Matt Lawton and, you know, you guys have written about how much Thomas Tuka likes him. What's the situation with Mike Gehi? Like, a lot of people will be listening to this for them, England starting is the start of the World Cup. Obviously, the timings in the UK as well maybe mean they haven't engaged with it as much. What's the situation with Gehi? Why are we going into a tournament probably with Konza and Stones? it's an odd run isn't it because Gahy's effectively replaced Stones at club level but I think the biggest thing in Stones' favour is well two things really his tournament performances over the years for England have been incredible of all the stalwarts even including Harry Kane I'd say that John Stones has been the most consistent over a number of tournaments and secondly a fit John Stones his ceiling is higher than anyone's, I believe that he is the best defender England have got when he's at his very very best and that's no slight on Mark Gahey and I think the idea of the pairing is Turkel wants one of the centre-backs to be able to bring the ball out to be able to accelerate the play in those situations where you're playing against a team in a block a low block maybe and the only player that's got the opportunity to really penetrate is the centre-back.

11:26So John Stones' passing is sensational. I think Gaye, he's an excellent footballer, but very few defenders have got that ability that Stones has got. So that's it. And then Wiconza, just look at the height that he's going for throughout the team. This may be the tallest England team I've ever seen. when you consider that, you know, Nico Riley's about six. Nico Riley was with Dan Burn today. They're almost the same size. He's six foot four. You know, he seems to be still growing. You know, Konza's got the set piece ability and the height and he's gone for that as much as possible across the park.

12:03So I think that's the reason. Coming back to the Saka point as well then, you know, I watched those warm-up games, Madueke starting on that right-hand side. Lots of people understandably thinking, Bakayo Saka is one of those nearly world class players that England have got Maduweke is nowhere near as good but is there a case for maybe saying that his simple game and making it quite a simple game if Thomas Tuchel is going to go down that route stick hug the touchline try and beat your full back actually is a good outlet for England in one sense and in another sense leaves that space open for Jude Bellingham and Harry Kane in the middle where previously we maybe saw Phil Foden, Cole Palmer are drifting into that area.

12:44I'm having flashbacks of two years ago already, Johnny. Is there a case of saying that, actually, listen to England fans out there, Nonny Madueke on a right wing is no bad thing? Well, look, it's balance. I think Madueke on one flank and Gordon on the other work. I do think you need one of the wider clears to have the ability to come inside and maybe help form a box to give you another man in midfield if you want to do that. And if you have Rashford and Madueke, I'd worry because that's two guys he just want to fly and get behind rather than come in and link play. So I think Maduweki with Gordon on the other side is kind of okay, but I don't think he's in Saka's class in all honesty.

13:26I think Maduweki's role should be, and I think would ideally be, that frightening player that comes on. He's got pace, can beat a man, a tired defence, get behind them. That's what he's really there for. and look I mentioned Serbia I go back to that again he was actually brilliant in Serbia and he played from the start so yeah it's not a terrible option but ideally Bakayo Saka would be who's by the way England's second top goal or third top goal scorer in the squad and that's important too Yeah really interesting obviously a huge big game player coming back to a player that you've mentioned who is undoubtedly a big game player Harry Kane England's captain he features in your preview that I've mentioned already that you can read on the Times website Thomas Tuchel as well and the headline, Be Brave, Be English to Create Something Special.

14:15Thomas Tuchel making a rallying cry. I'm quite interested to know what he means by that, but whether you can explain that to me, Johnny. But what are we expecting here? What is the mood music from England going into this game? Yeah, both Tuchel and Kane, I think, had very coordinated messaging, shall we say, which was very much around the theme of let's be free, let's be bold, Let's attack this. Let's not overthink it. And let's impose an English style of play. And Tuchel's talked about this from the start, hasn't he? But leaning into that Premier League physicality, leaning into that traditional English sort of pressing game, I suppose.

15:00Intensity. Now, there's been points that I think we've all doubted whether that might be possible in the American heat. But I mentioned the players' conditioning earlier. and I might end up really regretting saying this, writing it but I just, just watching them in the last few weeks I kind of think, these guys are so fit, I think they can actually do it in the heat, you know they can't be as uber intense as a Premier League game in October but I think they can play a pretty high temper of football I think they've got the physical capabilities and of course the game tomorrow is actually or the game in Dallas is actually in an air-conditioned covered stadium.

15:43So in this particular game, the conditions aren't going to be so much of a factor anyway. So what he wants is, yeah, all the things we see in the Premier League, set pieces, pressing, fast transitions, playing vertical. And he said something really interesting. He said the players want it. You know, the players play that way for their clubs and that's what they want to do. and if you can give them what they want then they play with confidence and they play better rather than trying to get them into some kind of style of football that you know and I don't want to always go back and criticise Gareth because Gareth had such incredible results but when you think back to that years in 2024 we did watch a very slow and studied England that didn't resemble a good Premier League team did it?

16:31So Tuchel's going for something that resembles a good Premier League team yeah and just talking about you know the fitness and you mentioned nico o'reilly there just to bring back in the tino livermento news nathaniel chalabar called up to the squad probably a lot of england fans listening to this going where's trent alexander arnold where's where's where's some of these other fullbacks you know it's another very solid choice you know chalabar is a player that gregor robertson often praises for his work in defense but if we are getting to you know you're you're telling me now that actually this team look fit i think they can do you know know they can go deep in this tournament but if we are going to see rotations we're going to see a lot of players playing at this world cup that maybe a lot of fans would be thinking this guy in england world cup player you know what's your reaction to the kind of livermento situation and what we might see in the fullback areas well i mean readers and listeners this might have picked up i'm generally pretty positive about thomas tuchel but this this isn't this isn't one of those occasions where I'm thinking about him having done something really clever I don't get the Trent thing first of all how far down the pecky order does he have to be now you know

17:44who do they go to next before Trent I mean it's strange what I worry about with this is Rhys James can't play three games a week. He has to be nursed physically. So that right-back slot, that backup slot is important. That person's going to have to play. Now, Livermento's excellent and he can play a similar game. But without him, you're looking at either playing Jed Spence on the opposite flank, might work, or I think more likely you're looking at playing a centre-back type, Jarell Kwanza or Esri Konza in that role and that's a very different balance to the team especially in possession and also then we've talked about the Bakayo Saka that whole right flank is starting to look a little bit physically vulnerable and I think Chalabas yeah, fine, great but consider him as a centre-back he shouldn't be coming in to replace a right back and that tells me that Kwanzaa is now the back up right back so I don't like it I would have brought Trent in I'd probably have had Trent in the squad all along but hey it's another 6 '5 clear maybe so we'll just set more and more set piece of Arsenal and that'll work Yeah set piece of FC Ole Ole I can see it coming now Hamza will be very upset if that happens won't he oh god I don't know how he'll cope You know what, Tom, I've been watching the games of Hamza and he actually doesn't count goals from set pieces as actual goals.

19:25He goes, oh no, if we're watching, he's like, that's not a goal. He's not having it. He could be in trouble in this Croatia game then, by the sounds of it, given what you've suggested. Johnny, we'll let you go very shortly. Just two things to wrap up. Just before we come back to England for the final question, I just wanted to ask you on your reflections on Scotland. We obviously heard from you with a great voice note from the ground. the other day. I've caught up with Michael since you were there. You know, I've spoken to you, Gregor, and Michael now, all a little bit subdued, lads, I've got to be honest.

19:57Scotland won, three points, top of the group. You know, what are your reflections now, a couple of days on from being there for that momentous night? You know what, I'm still smiling. Like most Scots, I think, I'm just finding myself, finding the old finger wandering to some social media app to just get the latest pictures of the Tartan army doing mad stuff or there's another genre which is americans bostonians now sort of posting their own videos of like these guys are amazing they got to stick around forever and it's brilliant um it was a i had a wonderful three days in boston um it was like food for the soul the football bit was the worst bit because it was such an excruciating game and yeah we didn't play well but you know now the dust is settling you just think well it doesn't matter we won the game now it sets up the rest of the trip even if the inevitable happens from here Scotland have had a moment I think we should aim for better of course but it's been absolutely wonderful, top of a group doing better than Spain you know let's just hold on to this and and i i am you know i used to travel with scotland used to travel with the tartan army um back in the day i used to you know i don't know i had some kind of reservations about them in all honesty just just yeah but but now i think i think their culture has just improved and it's brilliant they're such incredible fans and it just your heart's walls of pride and you laugh when you're among them.

21:41Yeah. I know now that I'll be looking back on those three days in Boston as three of the best football days of my life, for sure. Yeah. A winning start is all you can ask for. So I'll come back to England then. Final thoughts. Firstly, what do you think fans can expect from this game? Maybe pick out some players and then if you're brave enough, finish with a prediction. Yeah. If you know how it feels, I was watching France on the plane here, because American planes have got sensational Wi-Fi and you actually watch football. And it felt like the World Cup went up another notch in that game because of Mbappe.

22:21It felt like a superstar came to the party at last. And Elyse. You're just watching that team going. And Elyse. God my word. And then Turkey comes on and he doesn't run on, does he? He just walks on because I'm Ryan Turkey. Doesn't need to run. I'm Ryan Cherky and I'm the fifth, sixth choice attacking midfielder, winger. It's mad. Absolutely mad. Isn't it? So I mentioned that because I've thought all along that, and this is going to be stating the obvious, but England are Harry Kane's team, right? England have got the best number nine in the world, bar none. And if any other country had Harry Kane, England would be massively envious.

23:04so Harry's got to have a good World Cup for England to win it for sure but I've never seen him in a better state mentally and physically so he is the key man of course he is tomorrow I feel that England may not have to win the game because history tells us that you can win World Cups even if you start slowly but I think the way the draw works it would definitely be good to at least avoid defeat. There's part of me that wonders at the back of my mind that Tuchel has never beaten a top 20 side. How important is that? It's always difficult to know exactly how good England are because they breeze qualifying and then they hit the real thing.

23:50So I don't quite know. That is at the back of my mind. But time to, I suppose, say what I think was going to happen. I feel England are going to do well tomorrow. I do feel the players are going to impose themselves. I do feel that we will see a really good version of Harry Kane, as I mentioned. I also feel that Luka Modric is something England come up against under Thomas Ducal and will test Elliot Anderson and Declan Rice in a way that midfield tandem hasn't been tested before. So it's not as if Croatia don't have excellence themselves. I think England will sneak this game though.

24:37Yeah, well, who knows really? But yeah, let's go for a positive prediction and say it'll be an echo of the opening game of Euro 2020 and it'll be 1-0 England. 1-0 England. I'm sure England fans will take that, especially with a goal. From Harry Kane, Johnny Northcroft, thank you very much for joining me. You can read Johnny's preview on the Times website now mentioning Luka Modric. We've got Gregor's brilliant piece in search of the man himself from Croatia on the website as well. And Hamza's tactical preview if you want to learn about what kind of opponents England are going to face. Also, tomorrow, make sure you're straight on the Times website after the match finishes to read Johnny's match report and some analysis from Martin Samuel, Hamza and Matt Lawton as well.

25:19Johnny, thanks very much for joining us. We'll speak to you very, very soon. More to come on this episode of The Game Daily just after this little break. Stick with us. Thank you.

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27:22Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows and it's time to reflect on a remarkable night. Lionel Messi scoring a hat-trick for Argentina, six World Cups and 16 goals. He was back and shining on the biggest stage. Paul Hurst was reporting for the Times and sent me this note on what it was like to witness greatness. I'm sending you this voice note from just outside the media center at the Arrowhead Stadium. I've just walked down the stairs from the press box and on the way I pass a massive spiral staircase, very similar to the one outside the San Siro, that's how the fans exit here.

28:05And all of them to a man were singing Messi's name as they walked down that staircase. they were absolutely enamoured by the show that he put on tonight and I can see why, because he was just at his best, you know, 38 years old and he just bossed the game. The first 10 minutes, we watched the first 10 minutes of the match in the actual press box, which is behind some double glazing, which is terrible, it's an indoor press box, which quite a few of them have, the stadiums have in the US. but after the 10 minutes we found some seats downstairs which were actually in the stand and I was so happy that we found some because it actually gave you a proper appreciation of what the atmosphere like and how much love there is for Messi and he scored three goals tonight his first World Cup hat-trick now he's level on goals with Miroslav Kloza in terms of the all-time World Cup scoring record so he couldn't have started off the World Cup in better form really.

29:11He did get a helping hand from Luca Zidane, the Algeria goalkeeper son of Zinedine who was very charitable shall we say in the way that he tried to keep out the first two goals. He really had a very bad match did Zidane but yeah the love for Messi is here from the home fans, from the Americans, from the Argentinians of which there were tens of thousands 69 ,000 sell out here and what I did think was funny was when Messi's number was put up for him to get substituted towards the end I think 10 minutes before the end quite a few of the locals started leaving so they thought yeah we've seen enough here seen the main guy and we better try and beat the traffic and get home because there's no other reason to stay we've seen the masterclass it's time to go so yes off the press conference for me now I will speak to you soon but yeah that was a very very impressive start for Argentina.

30:10Earlier in the night another big name Erling Haaland had made his World Cup debut scoring twice as Norway proved their dark horse credentials with a 4-1 win against Iraq. James Geerbrandt was there for us and sent me these thoughts on Haaland's display. Well going into Norway's first World Cup match in 28 years I guess the question wasn't so much would Erling Haaland be able to make the step up to the World Cup it was more would the World Cup be able to slow down Erling Haaland. I mean, this is a player who in his previous 50 caps had scored 55 international goals and no one has ever started their international career so quickly.

30:52And the answer was no, because Haaland did manage to score twice here in what was ultimately a pretty comfortable win for Norway in what is obviously the most winnable, or figures to be the most winnable of their three group games in this quite tough group. Iraq actually played some really nice football and they scored a great goal, but then completely shot themselves in the foot by gifting Haaland really a ridiculous goal, you know, very shortly after they'd equalised. and I suppose in some ways this match was a demonstration of what makes Holland so good, his kind of super skill if you like, because in this match Holland generated chances that were worth over two expected goals and the highest XG figure by any other player in any match at this World Cup is 1.1 to put that in context.

31:57so whilst it might not look all that impressive to be bundling the ball home from a matter of a couple of yards it's the ability to get himself in those positions that is what really sets Haaland apart A couple of footnotes for Norway there was apparently some criticism on Norwegian TV of Martin Odegaard's performance which the coach Stoller Solbaken was asked about afterwards he's obviously not going to be dropped because he's the captain and also one final thing the fourth goal scored by Norway was given to Christian Thorstvet but it seemed that he didn't touch the ball at all on its way in it was a looping header by Haaland which seemed to come off a couple of Iraq defenders but the Haaland header did seem to be heading in and it wasn't touched by Thorstvet So is there perhaps a possibility that that goal could be awarded to Haaland retroactively turning his two goals into a hat-trick?

33:05It'd be interesting to see. And that special night began with France beating Senegal. Martin Samuel was there and I spoke to him about Mbappe Alisse and his thoughts on the tournament so far. Martin, welcome to the show for the first time at this tournament. and delighted to say that you were at the big game, one of the many big games that's happened in the past 24 hours, but maybe the most significant of all. France beating Senegal 3-1. Quite a statement performance, as you say in your report that's on the Times website now. They are the team to beat. What did you make of it specifically? Is it just as simple as, blimey, Kylian Mbappe and Michael Alissier are good at football?

33:46Well, it is, yeah. There's a bit of that, mate. There's definitely a bit of that. It was the old-fashioned, cliché game of two halves because they were very, very poor in the first half. I mean, it's the worst they've been in any group stage game since 1966 in terms of how many chances they had and touches in the opponent's box and all these sort of things. And Senegal could have been two new up, quite easily could have been two new up. And then you're thinking, hmm, it can't possibly be that bad again. And of course they weren't. And they came out in the second half and then you got a sense of what this French team is capable of.

34:29And for someone like myself, it's delightful to see because, you know, there's been a lot of talk about you can't play all these great players and stuff. And I've always said, well, yeah, you can. You just need to really work at it. And that's what France did. They changed things in the second half. They changed Dembele's position. They changed Alise's position. And they were a different team in the second half. And then Mbappé was as bad as he'd been in the first half because his touch was off and nothing was coming right for him. And in the second half, he scores two fabulous goals. Alise makes the first one.

35:07What a pass. The second one. What a pass. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the second one comes from the stars, really, because what happens is, France go 1-0 up, Phil and Bacchi, made by Elise a fabulous goal. France then show that what they've also got that's not in the team is pretty wonderful as well because Barcola comes on and he scores a great goal. The pass is wonderful from Rabiot and then Barcola scores. And then Senegal came back four minutes into injury time. they came back they scored a wonderful goal you know 18 year old you know Paris Saint-Germain I mean you're looking at this it was a great night for French football even the Senegalese goal reflects well on French football and so to one of his four minutes left and you're thinking well this could really could we get this grandstand finish could there be this amazing fight back and that is when Kylian Mbappe decides no no there's not going to be an amazing fight back this game is over and I'll show you how over it is and he scores this fabulous goal from 30 yards out and I love that and I've written about that in terms of England because there's been a lot of things with England about team spirit and brotherhood and it's obviously obviously the team's a thing it's an 11 a side game I mean it's not rocket science you know the team's the thing but just as you don't win a world cup without a great team you don't win it unless individuals come to the fore and play with that sort of degree of arrogance that little bit of ego that little bit of i'm a wonderful footballer and i'm going to show you how wonderful i am and i am going to bend this game to my will and all world cups get one like that you know they don't get one by a Diego Maradona in 86.

37:04But you look at David Villa, you look at Andre Iniesta, you look at, you know, you can go through Lionel Messi, you're in Kylian Mbappé. You can go through all these guys and there were moments in the tournaments that they won when they decided, well, we're not getting beat today. We are not getting beat today. We are not going home on this match. I love seeing that. And France were the epitome of that today because the collective was good. They passed to each other. They worked hard, worked a lot harder in the second half than the first. Yeah, I wanted to ask about the collective because I thought that was interesting with, obviously they've got Kylian Mbappe and that lifts any team.

37:43If you've got Kylian Mbappe in the team, they've got Alise, they've got this front line. But people had made points in the build-up to this that, is their midfield as strong as it was, full-backs? But you're watching this and as you say, throughout the team, upper Meccano barging people out of the way. you've got Saliba next to him you're just thinking as you say it was a you know oozing confidence and an arrogance and a swagger of we are the best team here and it felt like actually we're going to come on to talk about another team that you saw Brazil but linking it to the Spain game where you watch that and they didn't have that they didn't have that until Jamal came on the pitch they didn't have a kind of we are the favorites whereas France very much did who else were you impressed with in the team across the pitch other than the forwards?

38:30Well, it was just interesting that, I mean, Rabiot, fabulous pass for the goal, but then he makes the mistake for the San Glees goal. But how high their fullbacks played. I mean, people were talking about, is this 4-2-4? I mean, you know, you haven't seen too many teams play 4-2-4 since Graham Taylor's Watford. Is this 4-2-4? Well, at some stages, it was 2-2-6. Because there's the centre-backs, and then you've got the two guys sitting in front of the centre-backs. The full-backs were so high, and they've got a front four. And you're looking at this and thinking, this is madness. And you'd think, well, they're not going to play like this in a knockout game against a good team.

39:15But Senegal are a good team. I mean, that's a huge risk to take against Senegal. You know, because they're going to be a double handful for everybody else. Three-one's a fantastic result. Now, Senegal came to England and beat England 3-1. So, you know, they hadn't lost in 30 competitive matches going into that game, depending on your view of the African Cup of Nations final. You know, so for France to, well, just in the second half, play with the confidence that they did, that's a team, I think, throwing the gauntlet down to the rest of the competition. And we can say that this group stage and the fact that you can come third and still goes through means there's no jeopardy.

39:58And that is absolutely true. But you can still make a statement. You can still use a group game to say to everyone, right, this is what you've got to be. Later on, this is coming for you. And that's what France did yesterday or today. they said right we're here we're here to play this is the level you've got to match if you can't match this level you're not going to be us yeah I mean I was just talking to Johnny Northcroft before in part one and he was saying he'd watched this game and he felt like the World Cup had just gone up a notch France very much then for you the favourites now they've laid down a gauntlet as you've mentioned their time differences I'm speaking to you about midnight UK time we've still got argentina the holders to come of course um but in terms of norway i'm just looking at my television there yes norway 3-1 up as we speak just wrapping up their game against iraq in terms of the world cup then as you see it you've also saw brazil the other day against morocco a team that some had suggested this is a big tournament for them slightly failed to deliver on that one what did you make of that game um we obviously read your reports we talked about it on the pod a few days ago, but was this Carlo Ancelotti finding his feet, working some things out against, admittedly, a very good Morocco side?

41:23Look, I think there's two things. I keep coming back to the same point. One is they get out of jail because of Vinicius Junior. And again, it's another example of a player deciding, we're not getting beat today. We ain't losing to Morocco. This is what Vinicius Junior decides. Because, you know, what Carlo Ancelotti did, and Brazil were very, very poor in the first 20 minutes. They were as bad as France were in the first half. They were very poor in the first 20 minutes and they couldn't get the grips with Morocco at all. What Ancelotti did was he sort of threw an old-fashioned Italian blanket over Morocco's midfield and brought Fabinho on at half-time, closed the game down.

42:05It wasn't that impressive, the whole performance, but he shut Morocco down. but that wouldn't have been any good you know that that all of that would have been is that they would have successfully defended a one nil defeat without Renicius jr coming on coming on and doing something that just about nobody else on the pitch could have done and getting Brazil back into the game and that's that that's my point in many ways about exceptional players and exceptional talent there will be times you can have the greatest team spirit you can have unity chemistry brotherhood all of these words that we hear about england for instance and you can have all of that but there will be times when that isn't getting you over the line the team itself isn't playing that well you know everyone goes through it france went through it today 45 minutes of absolute tripe brazil went through it against morocco and when that's happening what's going to get you out of jail is a guy is a guy turning up and going right here we go have a go you know have a look at this and it came through in the brazil game it came through in the in the france game as well uh they tried it you know spain tried exactly the same thing didn't they laminya mal yeah when they bought laminya mal and what they were hoping is in that moment there will be one moment of absolute brilliance from laminya mal and unfortunately you know it It didn't happen.

43:34The other thing with Mbappé is, you know, you look at him now. So the two goals today, when he scored the first one, he moved beyond Pelé as a World Cup goalscorer. When he scored the second one, he moved beyond Lionel Messi. He also moved beyond, and this might sound incongruous to some people, Olivier Giroud as France's top goalscorer. So Mbappé is now joint with Gerd Müller as the third top goal-scoring World Cup history. He is only bested by Cristiano Ronaldo and Miroslav Kloza. He is two goals from levelling with Kloza. And he's 27. He's got the rest of this World Cup. And he might have, he probably has another World Cup.

44:24might have two more World Cups, might even have three more World Cups if he wants to Cristiano Ronaldo it. So I think we're watching as well the greatest World Cup goal scorer of all time pretty soon. Yeah, especially pretty ominous if he keeps going at this rate in this tournament. I should just say mentioning Mbappe-Martin, a slightly farcical VAR decision in this game or lack of, lack of refereeing decision. One of the more striking penalties, I don't know whether you agree in terms of watching it on the TV back home. What was it like in the ground in terms of that decision when it was 0-0?

44:59Obviously, it ends up not mattering, so it's not as big a headline, but quite a call. I was surrounded by Senegalese journalists, who, it's fair to say, were very enthusiastic about the decision. I wasn't. I don't think many people were. It looked like a penalty to me. I think it's a brave thing for the referee. It's a strange thing. you sort of quite like the referee for doing it. He's an Iranian referee. He's now referees in the Ailey in Australia. And I thought, well, that's quite bold. He's overruled the VAR, looked at it, thought he's totally wrong, but he's overruled the VAR. And in the end, it didn't matter because they've won 3-1.

45:44But yeah, it was a strange one, we must be seeing. Yeah, certainly a strange one. but as long as we keep the AR incidents down to a minimum, that's what we like about this World Cup. Martin, I just wanted to finish by asking about England. We'll let you go because you've got an early flight to Dallas. You're mentioning some big-name players in this segment, Kylian Mbappe, Michael Alise, Vinicius Jr. In part one, I was chatting with our colleague Johnny Northcroft about this World Cup and he was saying this needs to be Harry Kane's World Cup for England to do well. Fairly obvious thing to say, some listeners might think, but it's true he comes into it in amazing form you're going to be there tomorrow night with johnny and matt lawton and hamza you've seen england at so many tournaments you've previewed this tournament with you know some doubts around thomas tuckel's approach what do you think's the most important thing for england in this game obviously win the game would be great but what is the most important thing you want to see style intense intent intensity tactics what what is it you're hoping to see, having done it so many times in your career?

46:49Yeah, but all the things that everyone else would want to see. You want to see England play well, you want to see England win. You know, I think it's absolutely what we've got with Harry Kane. We've got something that a lot of other teams haven't got. I mean, look, Harlan's turned up tonight, hasn't he? Obviously, the 4-1 up now. Harlan's turned up tonight, Kylian Mbappe has turned up. We have got somebody at that level, without a shadow of a doubt, in Harry Kane, where you've got somebody at this absolute peak level. That's, you know, it's very important. You know, you look at Harry Kane and you think, right, if Spain had had Harry Kane, they don't draw with Kate Verde.

47:29I mean, they really don't. I mean, he scores one of those without a shadow of a doubt. But I think Bellingham is important as well. I think it's interesting, you know, Saka, how desperate Saka is to play, that he admits he's not quite fit, but he still wants to play. And I think that's what the best players do. They come to this stage and go, right, I will show you. I'll show you. That's what you want to see from England. You want to see that sort of boldness. And we haven't always seen it. And it's unfortunate sometimes. We have all the players, we have all the ingredients on the field, and then we don't play as if we've got that on the field.

48:10We're just a little bit too cautious. You think, and this is not just a recent thing, you can go back to 2006 and 2004 and Lampard and Gerrard and Scholes before he retired and Beckham. But actually, we played quite conservatively. That was the unfortunate thing. Everyone thinks everyone bombed on. They didn't. That was the problem. No one bombed on. Everyone was sort of being very sort of English and noble and saying, oh, I must protect the back four. And so we had all these wonderful creative players and we never went forward enough. So that's what you want to see. You want to see a little bit of that.

48:51You want to see a little bit of, right, we've watched France. Okay, this is what we can do. And nobody wins the World Cup. You know, Carlo said it the other night. You know, you don't win the World Cup in your first game. You don't lose the World Cup in your first game. And you certainly don't lose it when three teams can go through from the group. But there are teams now beginning to make statements about we're here. This is what we're about. This is what you've got to match. And you want to see a little bit of that from England. Can England make a statement like France? We will see. Martin, thank you very much for joining me.

49:28We'll leave it there for this episode of our daily World Cup shows. You can read Martin's report on Kylian Mbappe's brilliance on the Times website now. And make sure you join us for England v Croatia. We'll have our live file online. reaction from Johnny, Martin and the team. And we'll be back with a reaction podcast tomorrow. We'll see you then.

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