WORLD CUP DAY 8: McTominay mania and who is Anthony Barry?

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1:07Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows, your essential morning briefing on the 2026 tournament. This is Day 8, I'm Tom Clarke and on today's show I'm joined by Michael Grant and Peter Rutzler to preview big games for Scotland and USA. and I also caught up with Jonathan Northcroft for further reflections on England's 4-2 win against Croatia. But first, let's run through what happened last night and, well, you thought it'd be boring, but there was lots of entertaining stuff on show. Now, I'm not going to lie, Czech Republic's 1-all draw with South Africa was a bit of a stinker.

1:44Having watched these sides twice now, I think they are pretty poor. But Switzerland turned on the style with a 4-1 win against Bosnia. 20-year-old forward Johan Manzambi looks pretty talented, I've got to say. Definitely worth watching the highlights of this one. And then the madness began in Canada v Qatar. Six goals, two red cards and a horror injury. This was quite the spectacle. Co-host Canada, impressive again with a 6-0 win. But to be honest, Qatar, they completely lost their heads in this one. There were some very sad scenes though as Canada midfielder Ismail Kone was stretched off with a really nasty looking injury.

2:21Slightly bizarre moments, I've got to say. He's taken off on a stretcher, taking gas and air, leg in a brace, but still managing to wave to the crowd. Then, teammate Nathan Salabar delivered what I think must be a first, an in-game tribute to a teammate who had only just gone off injured, holding up Kone's shirt after he scored the fourth. Again, go and check out the highlights of this one, and of course, we wish Kone a speedy recovery. Mexico became the first side to qualify for the knockout stages with a win against South Korea. Some poor goalkeeping in this one, as there had been in Colombia's win against Uzbekistan the night before.

2:58There was a great goal by Daniel Munoz in that game, though. Do go and check it out if you haven't already. But now it's time to look forward to a cracking night of football to come. We'll hear from Peter Rutzler in the USA camp shortly. But first, I spoke to the Scottish football correspondent Michael Grant to preview Scotland's second game against Morocco. Michael, great to have you with us again, joining us from Boston. I'm delighted to see, I've got to say, for all you Scots, that I've seen some reports of rain today, which, you know, as a man from Manchester myself, I can understand the need to acclimatise.

3:29You know, all we've heard about climate and stuff, that's great news for Scotland, isn't it? Bit of drizzle? Bit of rain, bit of chilly weather. We're in our element here. This is more like it. Lovely stuff. That's what we like to hear. Top of the group and a bit of rain as well to accompany. That's perfect. Other than the weather, how's the mood in the camp? You know, England got the win yesterday and we wrapped up the first round. We're now building up to Scotland in round two. Does it feel a little bit like a long time since that first game? You know, to the players, to the journalists, does everyone feel like, you know, Haiti was a long time ago?

4:02Yeah, I think maybe for the fans, it probably feels longer, Tom. It's been a busy week for the media pack because we have gone from Boston and back down to Charlotte in North Carolina to be at the camp and then back to Boston. And so, I mean, you know, that fills days and takes up a lot of time. Yeah, I mean, listen, the feel-good factor, I would say, has continued through the week on the back of the win. You know, there's been a lot of kind of lightness from the players. The quotes have been good. The tales have been good. I think today maybe just got a sense of business time coming back again and a lot of very respectful talk about Morocco and the quality of the team that Scotland are going to be facing in the second game in Boston because, let's not make any mistake, Morocco are top class, you know, and for all that this week has been great fun, it's very unusual for Scotland to be winning an opening game at a World Cup and just the kind of relief of pressure, the release of pressure that that brings, the narrative might change if it goes badly in the second game.

5:11But the reverse is also true. If they were to get a result, then wow, it would be remarkable. Yeah, we'll come on to the game and some tactics in just a second. But you mentioned some good stories, the mood being high. You obviously did a great piece with Craig Burley as well. Just tell us about some of the stories that we've heard from both the Scotland camp or indeed former players this week. What has kind of caught your eye? What has suggested that the vibes are good? The one that springs to mind, I guess, is Lyndon Dykes, you know, who one of the guys asked him about the fact that he'd shaved his head, which Lyndon Dykes goes through hairstyles like nobody's business.

5:46Right. He's lucky in that respect that he's able to. But before before some of the tournaments, he tends to shave his head, you know, and he's spoken before about this being a kind of bit of a declaration and a bit of a kind of, you know, the warrior stuff and all that. So he was asked about that and he went into that and said, yeah, you know, hopefully all the players will do it. Now, I mean, Robertson came out today, hair, exactly the same as always. So clearly Dykes' request has fallen on deaf ears, you know. But stuff like that was a bit of fun, you know. And Gannon Doak, Ben Gannon Doak spoke the day before.

6:21And I think we were all kind of blown away by how relaxed and kind of funny Gannon Doak was. because he's always looked quite shy and kind of reserved. So I think maybe all of that is symptomatic of the team feeling good about itself. They were under a hell of a lot of pressure on that Haiti game and that's kind of lifted. And Robertson the same, but Robertson came in today and as I say, there was just that kind of sense of, right, okay, it's getting serious again now and Morocco are a proper team. Yeah, let's refocus indeed. so let's refocus our minds then onto this game. One of the topics of conversation, both with yourself and with Gregor and Johnny, you know, between these two games and after Haiti was, you know, the 4-4-2 formation.

7:06Any inklings, any sense from Steve Clark as to where he might be heading formation tactics-wise, selection-wise into this game? Well, Steve Clark gives absolutely nothing about anything, to be honest with you. You know, I mean, even those of us who kind of reckon we can try and decipher them a little bit, but we can get it quite wrong. All he said on the tactics and the formation is that he has tried various systems and the players are comfortable in various systems, which is kind of a non-answer, really. He has been playing 4-4-2 recently. We would be surprised if he continues with that, although he did do it against Denmark away and got a 0-0 draw in the qualifiers.

7:46So we think it's more likely to be a 4-5, 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, maybe get McTominay a bit further up the pitch he's got the option to go to three at the back bring Kieran Tierney in I mean Tierney didn't play didn't really feature in the opening game he's an asset for us but I would be inclined to think it'll go for four across the back four across the middle and maybe McTominay playing off Adams I think he'll keep in Ganondoke because Ganondoke lit up the first at least the first half of the first game and then I suppose your decision is whether he takes in Kenny McLean or Ryan Christie in central midfield alongside Ferguson and it was, one of our colleagues said to me that he was asked about McTominay today, Steve Clarke and he gave this answer about how he's got great players through the squad and guys that have always been there for him and he mentioned Hanley and he mentioned Robertson and McGinn but he also mentioned Kenny McLean and one of the guys said or that's his subconscious.

8:51That means McLean's playing. He's dropped Kenny McLean into it. So who knows? Steve Clarke always keeping you on your toes. That's what a manager's supposed to do. They've got to keep us guessing. Can't make it easy for us, Michael. But you mentioned Scott McTominay there. He's the subject of a brilliant piece of yours on the Times website now. I mean, it would be fantastic, wouldn't it? We've had Harland. We've had Harry Kane. We've had Jude Bellingham. We've had Lionel Messi. We've had Kylian Mbappe enter Scott McTominay into this World Cup in this second game. You know, he is an elite player now, you know, all the kind of slight jokiness around his performances and how he's elevated himself, but he is a top, top, top player.

9:30We'd love to see it, wouldn't we? Do you think he's fit enough? Do you think he can deliver that on the biggest stage? Do you think he can handle the pressure that comes with that? Because he is, as I say, with that comes this, you know, can you be a talisman? Can you be kind of Gareth Bale for Wales for Scotland? yeah talisman was exactly the word that was used Tom today about McTominay and Clark is you know he frustrates the life out of the year because you try and ask him about Scott McTominay and his answer kind of dissolves into mentioning everybody else in the score almost but he did say that McTominay has got that quality he was pretty low key in the first game you know he almost scored he hit the post from outside the box that would have meant that he had the honour of the first goal for Scotland at World Cup in 28 years.

10:20That went to John McGinn later. But apart from hitting the post, he was kind of low-key. I watched the game again specifically to watch him, and he was OK, but it was a kind of 5.5, 6 out of 10. Scott McTominay at his best is gripping a game and holding a game by the throat and doing more than that. He did have the stomach upset a couple of days beforehand. And who knows whether he wasn't quite 100%. It maybe looked that way, frankly. But maybe that's been too kind to him. Who knows? We don't get the chance to sit and ask him the question, unfortunately, because he seems to be treated like royalty and doesn't do the general press conferences, or at least not yet.

11:01But yeah, listen, if Scotland are going to go through this group and be credible and be strong against Morocco and Brazil, they ain't going to do it without McTominay playing well. Yeah, absolutely. I'm desperate to see Scott McTominay perform on the World Cup stage. Michael, we'll let you go. Just a final question then. You don't have to give me a prediction result-wise, but just how do you think this game's going to go, both for listeners who are Scottish fans, but also neutrals as well? Because this is a big game. I think a lot of Britain is behind Scotland in this World Cup. The fans are so superb.

11:32We want to see you do well. How do you think this game might go? you know what I think if Scotland perform as they can they could frustrate and stop Morocco from getting into a flow I watched the AFCON final against Senegal in January and Senegal did a good job on just stopping Morocco the game never really got any flow Morocco never got going it was bitty it was broken up and I thought I wonder if Scotland have watched that and thought, yep, yep, that's how we at our best might be able to do that to them, you know. But Morocco are brilliant in the first half, especially against Brazil. They've got the young lad, Bouhadi, in central midfield, 18-year-old Arsenal being linked with him.

12:18He could become a star of the tournament, but they've got threats and Hakimi and Diaz, you know. They're a proper team with proper class throughout it. This sounds all a bit wishy-washy because I don't really know what to expect from Scotland, Tom. at their best they can make a real go of this and make a real game of this but you're never quite sure what you're going to get with Scotland and I'm still I guess carrying a lot of baggage from the last two Euros when they've been poor and when there's been pressure on them they've not really stepped up to it so I know this is a dreadful answer to give you but I really will and I mentioned this in the preview piece that I think this game will tell us a lot about where Scotland are you know and I'm not sure that I can tell you that with any great confidence at the moment Yeah, listen Michael, listeners to this podcast are used to Scotsmen sitting on the fence they've got Gregor Robertson on a weekly basis doing it all the time whenever I ask him for a prediction so we'll let you off we understand it's a complex game and we'll be fascinated to see which Scotland turn up on the night Michael Grant, thank you very much for joining me you can read Michael's match report on the Times website not long after full time in that one and we'll be hearing from him again in the tournament later on Michael speak to you very soon thanks Phil thanks to Michael Grant there for joining me I'm delighted to say I've got another member of the Times World Cup team joining me now Peter Rutzler normally covering football teams in the south of England and focusing on Chelsea but for this World Cup his main focus his sole focus is Team USA Pete welcome to the show again how are you I'm good, Tom.

13:55I'm good, Tom. You say sole focus, but I've been in and around Iran as well, so it's been quite a contrast, I suppose. I'm just trying to acknowledge the failings of our editing, Pete, that we gave you this sole task of focusing on USA and then sent you out there and said, you know what, can you go and just nosy around that Iran situation for a little bit as well? Not like it's a big story or anything. You're quite right. You did some brilliant reporting from their game against New Zealand and all the striking comments after in the press conference. but it is Team USA that we wanted to talk about.

14:26You're talking to me now from what looks like a little cupboard somewhere in the back end of a stadium, all the glamour. Not quite. This podcast comes to you live from, you know, a deranged, sleep-deprived editor with the washing behind him and a football reporter who sat against a wall somewhere in a stadium. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. I'm just beside the press box at Lumen Field. I'm opposite a fire extinguisher and a picture of Barack Obama receiving some kind of flag. on the wall but yeah Lumenfield obviously the home of Seattle Sounders Seattle Reign the two two soccer teams and then the Seattle Seahawks as well so yeah it's a stunning arena I've just tried to take myself away from the rest of the journalists so I don't annoy them with with crass comments about your your cave mate.

15:14High to professionalism as always Pete but you are in Seattle as well as it being the home of those sporting teams it is also the place for the big game tomorrow there's loads of big games coming up but I actually have just been writing and editing the Times World Cup newsletter and I've picked out USA v Australia as actually my game of the day partly because I don't want to upset Gregor Robertson by focusing solely on Scotland and Morocco but I do I am excited for this one but you've got two teams who performed really well in their opening game really confident and probably two teams who are thinking hoping to fly under the radar a little bit but in this kind of you know enhanced competition hoping to get to the latter stages usa then brilliant win in that first game we talked about it on the pod how's the mood in the camp been in the coming days and have you got any updates on team injuries christian pulisic being a big contender for that factor yeah so um obviously the main talking point the main concern really for all sort of american supporters and and the american team is the fitness of christian pulisic so pulisic went off at half time against paraguay with a calf injury so he picked up a knock in training marizio pochettino basically said after that game that when it got a bit cold he began to feel a bit discomfort so he was taken off and then all week we've basically seen him not take part with the rest of the group in in full training so he's he's been doing some modified training individual work we've seen him out with some strapping on his on his left calf and you always wonder with these kind of things is it is it a ruse you know is this just you know we see him for 15 15 minutes we all then leave and then he just whips it off and then he goes straight into full training it doesn't seem to be the case he has genuinely been involved in modern modified training today we saw him take part in the huddle we were training at the university of washington at husky soccer stadium and then disappeared off to do some some gym work so uh the the latest is that maricio Pochettino will sit down with his medical staff this evening and then basically make a decision if he will play and obviously he'd be a massive loss he's been he was really really influential in that first half against Paraguay I think it was one of the most striking 45 minutes of the tournament so far by a team just because of the level that they showed I don't think a lot of people anticipated that they would play that well and in that way so he's touch and go but the general mood in the camp is is really really positive um you could tell that when we went down to um open training on monday at their base in irvine which is 40 miles south of los angeles we turned up went up to the open session maritio pochettino walks over he greets everyone it's all smiles and then we're hanging around for about 15 minutes and then we're not told to go away and we ended up hanging around for about half an hour we have the rondos in front of us everyone's laughing having a really nice time but that's that's generally genuinely been the feel um in fact on wednesday the the players in there had their families friends kids come and watch them train and i've got i've got a piece up on the timed website just talking about the mood in the camp and what it's been like and you know one of the one of the players dad said i'd never seen his son train before so he just turned around to jonas and said uh what happens next um after they finished their rondos but again it just speaks to the just how relaxed everyone is feeling the positivity after that first game um they're certainly in a in a good frame of mind and obviously they'll switch back on again now for the second game because australia as you said looked to be more impressive than i think most gave them credit for um i think we all expected them to be quite defensive to be two solid blocks a four and a five and a five and a four but they showed they can buy it as well particularly on that left-hand side with Jordan Boss who plays in the Eredivisie and Nesteroy Irincunda of Watford who looked sensational in that game against Turkey so he'll be a big, big challenge.

19:17Yeah, I'm really excited to see him play as well I've just picked him out in tomorrow's World Cup newsletter as well. Tell me a little bit more about Pochettino and how he's been because the last time we spoke we talked about what a big moment it was for him to get that first win and he's been under pressure at different times in the past six months, a year. Some of that relaxed mood in the camp that you've just outlined there, is that stemming from him? Is he showing that same relaxed mood? Is he laughing and joking? Because he's a fascinating figure, isn't he, to English football fans. We like to think we know him, but then we don't know him that well.

19:51He's never been someone who's necessarily shown himself all that much, despite managing clubs in the Premier League. What's he been like around the place? Yeah, he has been very, very upbeat and very positive. I think, I mean, his World Cup approach has sort of been shaped by his own experience. So he played under Marcelo Bielsa in 2002, a quite traumatic World Cup experience in Korea and Japan because they went out in the group stages. he of course conceded a penalty that Michael the Michael Owen one and was converted and they crashed out but it was it was classic Bielsa it was very much a lockdown environment there were no friends and family around there was none of what we're seeing here and Pochettino sort of learned from that and has tried to just help the players now of course it's they're helped by the fact that there's a longer gap between the matches I think he just said today in the press conference he had about an hour ago you know we feel like coaches we feel like we're in a club and the players have also said that too they've they've echoed that feel and that that really does help um but when you speak some of the players and they talk about their respect for for pochettino it's it's pretty it's pretty it goes quite deep i mean sebastian beholter is one example he plays for vancouver whitecaps he came into the group over the past year so what pochettino has sort of done is he's taken a few MLS players and brought them in, created that competition, made sure that the better players don't feel complacent.

21:16Berhalter's one of those who's come through that process and done really well. And he just said, look, he's been fantastic with me. I felt like he's believed in me the whole way through. Even when I wasn't in a camp, which was in October, the way he dealt with it for me made me feel like that was absolutely the right decision at that time. And other players talk about the emotional connection he has with them, the importance of that and valuing those emotions you know one of the big themes i think within this us team is trying to bring everyone together and he's trying to make everyone feel particularly valued tyler adams spoke to this point specifically about all the staff feeling involved and we actually we actually saw that in happened today in open training happened on monday as well when they do their pre-training huddles every member of staff goes over it doesn't matter who they are whether they're first team assistant coach to member of security you'll they all go over and will will be part of that so there's a real collective sense that real collective feel and the combination of that extra time that that feeling of to get togetherness and balancing that between making sure the players are comfortable but also in a positive serious frame of mind um it's it's put them where they are now um so yeah it's quite interesting and i think for him obviously the first win was massive so important because of all the pressure and expectation and they now need to follow that up of course yeah in terms of the other side of things I think you know we talked about the players there we talked about the manager I've mentioned the World Cup newsletter that we've been sending out to subscribers your diary entry from that a few days ago kind of posed the question will America fall for this team as well so much of the build up to this tournament talked about oh well you know the New York Knicks are winning the NBA championships that's going to distract attention uh you know soccer isn't the major sport over here but i mean that win couldn't have done any better how has it been since that first win you know could you answer your own question that you pose in the newsletter is america falling for this team i think we'll definitely see tomorrow i'm very curious about it because i mean you mentioned the knicks um a game four you know more people watched the us play paraguay than they did watch game four in the NBA finals.

23:26That's kind of indicative of interest. Now, when we talk about soccer on a national level and sport on a national level, you want to capture the whole country rather than two specific sports teams. But considering where soccer's coming from, that's a pretty good starting point. We're in Seattle at the moment and Seattle has a very rich footballing soccer culture. Bobby Moore played here in the 70s, but the Sounders get huge support. Seattle rain gets huge support I mean even just being in around the city I've had a very brief look around today it's an absolutely stunning place with Mount Rainier in the background the huge volcano and the Puget Sound and everything else but on the front Fox Sports have got their sort of the FIFA fan park thing and they've got two massive screens one's on the pier and one's on a barge that's sort of in part next to it and it's just there's a real sense that there's actually a world cup going on there are you know fans with shirts everywhere there are flags everywhere adverts about the tournament people getting behind it i went into my hotel and they get their goodie bag say oh welcome you know looking forward to the football blah blah blah um megan rapino does the voiceovers on the you know the shuttle like there's a real sense that there's something going on and admittedly where i am with the us team in near la it's in irvine so it's 40 miles south of the city so i don't get the full sense of what la is absolutely like but certainly here there is that culture there is that expectation and and i am and i expect that it will definitely feel that way in the game because lumenfield is known to be one of the loudest stadiums in the mls so that should come across what will be interesting is those tv numbers do they tick up and obviously it's 12 o 'clock um pacific time tomorrow so it's middle of the day so middle of the working day so that might play a play a part in what shakes out but you'd imagine that people will have seen that and heard about the first game and be excited for what's to follow next yeah really interesting i wanted to finish by asking about expectation you mentioned it there when talking about the fans after that impressive first win with i'm particularly talking about this australia team and what it might be a tough test but if team usa can win this six points from the first two games progress to the knockout stages what what does success look like in terms of the team and performance we talked about it for pochettino and belief and things but once you've won that first game surely belief that they can go quite deep in this tournament starts to grow what what what do you think would be a success what we're talking here round of 16 quarter finals quarter finals would certainly be a success i mean the united states haven't reached quarter finals since 2002 um which is their best performance in the modern era you know they they reached the semi-finals in the first ever world cup in 1930 very different era of course but i think they will want to do better than they did in qatar obviously that means an extra round because this tournament is bigger you know they could face someone unexpectedly a big big side earlier and that might change things but if they can get as far as the quarters that would be a fantastic achievement i think the real the i think the main goal and it is trying to just capture attention is to have those moments that bring people to the sport together to experience them together you know people talk about with with the us team like you know landon donovan scoring against algeria to win one nil to get out the group in 2010 like something those kind of moments that really grip you the paraguay game was a great start because it offers that now it's about trying to do that again and i think some kind of eye-catching knockout win would also be be be impressive and i'm also just curious to see you know like part of me thinks they need to have a penalty shootout and also maybe you know maybe lose one just so they know what it's like because it's a distinct experience uh from a sporting perspective so um but no in terms of target absolutely i mean anything beyond the quarters i think you're talking about beating some of the very very best so um we're not sure yet if the us are that good i mean the signs are positive they're playing very well but you know I think Pochettino even said this today he's got a everyone's very high everyone's very positive you know people when they criticize can be very very critical but you also when you're that doing that well you've got to got to make sure people aren't getting ahead of themselves.

27:39Pete I was excited about this game before I'm even more excited now Peter Rutzler thank you very much for joining us on the Game Daily World Cup podcast thank you too to Michael Grant for joining us earlier we're going to take a quick break right now but we'll be back with Johnny Northcroft to talk England after this.

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29:41welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times these are our daily world cup shows i'm tom clark and i'm delighted to be joined in the second part of the show by our chief football correspondent and football journalist of the year johnny northcroft johnny you're just about to leave dallas thomas tuchel left with three points uh we've read your brilliant copy on the times website today we spoke to alison and gregor yesterday we heard from matt Lawton as well who's out there with you lots of praise for Tuchel in England's performance you've been part of the build-up for so long you probably feel like you're part of England's build-up for it sometimes and what are your reflections now kind of where are we now about 12 hours on a little bit more than that yeah well look first thing to say is what a night it was to report on the team we've spoken about this before you know I think I probably come at England with slightly a neutral perspective and not having to be maybe quite as emotionally involved in the outcome to just be able to enjoy that performance as a spectacle, to enjoy that game as a brilliant opening match.

30:44I'm not sure I've seen many better opening matches involving any team than that, but I thought the England performance was, yes, floored, but also brilliant. And that's the whole point. Florida Brilliant is probably what you describe a classic Premier League, any Premier League sort of match or team as. It's not as measured as La Liga. It's not as measured as the classic Italian teams. That's English football. That's what Thomas Tuchel wanted and what we saw was a top second half performance that reminds you of, you know when you see a really good English side in the Champions League going toe-to-toe with someone maybe maybe conceding possession maybe conceding goals but ultimately overwhelming them with with energy adventure pace that's what we saw it was great and when you know to report in a game like that there's so much happening even at halftime there's a story uh brilliant fun absolutely brilliant fun yeah we're going to come on to that halftime team talk in just a second but i've been reflecting on that you know myself having in this slightly bizarre challenge I've set myself I've watched every game every team and you know a few people have said what's the best game what was the best game and I was like probably England Croatia you know and it's a strange thing for a journalist to say and you know an Englishman to say that actually England was the best game it was the most fun and you know Martin Samuel as our colleague has written on the Times website now about what a striking performance it was for an opening game you've already referenced there your status as a neutral being a Scott who covers England do you think then it was a performance that like will make the rest of the tournament sit up and go crikey England are quite good yeah yeah because I mean Croatia are the the top seeded second seed opponents basically that nobody had a tougher opening game than England and I was sort of trolling back in the memory banks to think um you know like Martin did how high does that sit within England opening games.

32:47I think it's certainly the top I've seen, probably the top ever. And yes, we've had a tournament where Mbappe's come to the party, Messi's come to the party, the Germans have scored a bucket of goals, the host nation have been good. But that's the first meeting between two top sides and the tournament will take notice of that. I think neutrals everywhere, countries everywhere will have enjoyed watching that and will have seen Jude Bellingham and Harry Kane and Bakayo Saka and the English artillery and think that's pretty good. You'll probably have a lot of foreign coaches and fans sitting there thinking we can score against England if we play them.

33:29But everyone being entertained, I think. So yeah, maybe right at the end England have stolen the mantle of best first round performance. Yeah, which is quite a claim and quite a brilliant thing to have done for Thomas Tuchel's side. but it didn't look all that way. Let's talk about that half-time team talk. You know, we've heard Matt Lawson's written the piece where Thomas Tuchel has talked about what he said but I wanted to come and talk about Anthony Barry. Probably one of the most striking and remarkable TV interviews I've maybe ever seen. You know, I get the pleasure of watching all these games from the office and speaking to you reporters so I'm always watching it up via the TV.

34:06And Paul Joyce, our brilliant colleague, is part of our team in London reporting on the games during the tournament. And he kind of ran over to myself and James Restall, our boss, saying, have you heard what Anthony Barry's just said? You know, we're just so not used to, you know, we're so platitudes and things like that. It was so striking to talk about, you know, the flaws that England had showed. This is not how we want to play. Just tell us a little bit about this man that Thomas Tuchel's got next to him, who is clearly such a strong part of delivering this message about bravery and everything that Thomas Tuchel wants from his England team.

34:40Yeah, well, look, I know Anthony and the way he spoke didn't surprise me. Now he's in front of a wider audience. I mean, yes, very, very sort of bold halftime interview, talking about things like fearful patterns, you know, how we can't calm down. I think people enjoyed it because you saw a coach expressing what any viewer, any fan back home was thinking really in an articulate way. The thing to know about Anthony is one of the most incredibly hardworking people you'll meet in your life. Someone who, when he was on the FA Pro License, they were told right at the start, like your final presentation on this course will be to the group.

35:27You have to present your dissertation to the group. And Anthony Barry, who at that point was at Wigan, looked around the room, looked at his colleagues Frank Lampard, Michael Carrick, Juan Carlos Osorio who previously been Mexico manager some elite people Colo Ture and thought oh my goodness you know I'm a guy from from from Wigan I'm gonna have to brush up my presentation skills hired a presentation coach ended up going into prisons to speak doing all sorts of exercises ended up acing the course winning this kind of challenge they had to when they pretend to be hostage negotiators that's a guy that has put communication at the heart of his sort of coaching journey and then come under Thomas Tuchel's wing I think what you'd notice is that the pair of them speak exactly the same language they deliver exactly the same message and what you saw there was Anthony Barry standing in front of the camera and basically telling you what him and Thomas Tuchel had been speaking about for 45 minutes on the bench which is incredibly refreshing and I think it might continue.

36:34I think there might be future interviews with him throughout the tournament at halftime because those are kind of mandatory FIFA interviews. The FA have got to put someone up and I understand it might be him in future games. Yeah, fun and entertaining on the pitch and really fun and entertaining even at halftime if Anthony Barry keeps that up. But I mean, just reflecting on that and Thomas Tuchel as well, it was interesting watching him on the sidelines, and you know listening to a lot of the journalists talk about in the second half you didn't sit down you know you stood on the touchline I think for Jude Bellingham's goal there's really good clips of split screen of Tuchel being stood on the sideline watching watching and then kind of fist pumping going yes great thank you now get another one go go go you and I on this podcast were big fans of Gareth Southgate and everything he did for England but that is a big thing that he never delivered for England is it that kind of reaction in-game reaction and that is something England fans have been crying out for for a long time yeah look I think we could be very binary when we analyze coaches and and you know there's a danger of saying oh everything Tuchel does is amazing and that means everything Gareth does was rubbish and that's not where you and I come from on this Tom is it but it's what you got on it's it's a journey right it's it's stages that that in the development of a team and Gareth um introduced the built the foundations of what we we see now with England which you know we're talking about communication openness and communication has been part of it but restoring the the the kind of specialness of the shirt and not not feeling it as a burden but and and I think a lot of that cultural work was done but but the thing as you just referenced the the thing that Gareth couldn't really do was reflect that as a tactician you know there was never a freedom of of england play there was a freedom in other ways but you know the the the inflatable unicorns and and and so on stopped when they got on the pitch it was quite conservative stuff at times and it took england to a certain point um but the big criticism of of gareth and i think it was a bit unfair at times but it had some validity um was what would happen in game quite often england would start well and then regress a little bit as they tried to hold on to to what they had and and that last night was the opposite they started really badly um so you know i've been banging on about a great performance it was a great performance for 45 minutes the first 45 minutes were what we've seen from england in tournaments sometimes times um feeling the pressure losing the the plan that they had um and we had a a coach there that was able to press the right buttons um in terms of of the messaging but also tactically you know Hamza has written a fantastic analysis of that on our site uh little tweaks like the positioning of of Declan Rice changed you know he stopped starting to sit alongside Elliot Anderson and was was starting to run forward and that gave England an ability to attack the spaces further up the pitch so there were the tactical tweaks too and underlying it all was a coaching approach based on let's go for it rather than let's hang in and see if we can nick something and that's probably the the big Thomas Tuchel change.

39:56Yeah obviously I've read your match report and a lot of listeners will have as well so they know the answer to this question but just for some listeners who don't which players or player was perhaps the most striking on the night yeah look i mean to state the absolute obvious uh jude bellingham and harry kane are very good footballers aren't they and they were the they were the guys again last night i know i know harry's goals were like set piece goals but to bury that penalty on the retake after such pressure having missed against france in the last world cup takes some doing and the header was magnificent and then you just saw jude bellingham what he does differently to every other player in the squad and most players in the world is that two things, that ability to seize moments when it's most needed and few have got that and then more specifically that ball carrying skill that he's got which we've rarely seen since Gaz I think, the power and control at the same time, he did it in the first half when he carried the ball from the halfway line into Croatia's box and then he scored his goal with a carry like that.

41:06So they were the two obvious ones. And behind them, I felt Bakayo Saka and Marcus Rashford were huge upgrades when they came on in the flanks. And I loved Elliot Anderson's performance on a night that Declan Rice struggled a bit physically and certainly wasn't his best. Anderson actually looked like the senior midfield partner and was both running around putting out fires when Croatia had the ball and then when England had the ball very good in build up I felt it's strange when I'm speaking to some colleagues afterwards they thought Anderson had a poor game so it shows your football is all about opinions but I loved his performance Yeah I've got to say I agreed with you and Alison Rudd as well on the show before it was a quiet unassuming nature to Elliot Anderson's performance and I think we can be very quick to forget how long we've craved a midfielder who can sit alongside Declan Rice and the idea that he could take off Declan Rice and England fans will go oh sorry Ellie Anderson's still there yeah it's a great position to be in um you mentioned Rashford and Saka there obviously we now turn our attentions as ever as soon as we as soon as at full time but definitely 12 or 18 hours on to the next game and what next few of my pals uh passionate England fans saying oh Rashford's got a start or gosh we need look better when Saka comes on um you know question marks are still over the fullbacks I would say do you expect big changes or is you know we're going to go back to cool Thomas Tuchel everything we spoke about between these two games because they're big gaps aren't they they are big gaps uh i mean they'll get they'll become small gaps later in the tournament but at this stage they are quite big gaps it's an interesting question because he's talked a lot about starters and finishers and that ability rashford has coming off the bench um i can't think about almost a player you'd you'd if you're a tired fullback you'd you'd less rather see than Marcus Rashford pumped up and coming on to do what he does I think there'll be a temptation to keep Rashford in that role albeit on merit I think he did better than Gordon and deserves to start but there might just be that temptation to keep him as a weapon from the bench.

43:09Saka will be in that starting line-up as soon as he's deemed physically ready. That's a judgement call for the performance and staff. Tuchel says he's pretty close to being able to play 90 minutes but there was a hint that he won't do that until not play 90 minutes but start but there's a hint he won't do that until Panama I think at the back there's maybe a question whether you bring Mark Gahey in and the Stones cons of partnership didn't quite work and then my one other concern I guess is around the left back position and Nico O 'Reilly who's such a great footballer but as we know is really a midfielder by training at Manchester City and has been converted into left back for now.

43:59You saw against an elite winger like Perisic that it's a tough job for a rookie to be able to perform at this level. So I do wonder if given how well Jed Spence did he might come in as well. Yeah I'm starting to wonder whether this is Jed Spence tournament. I could see last night England playing well a knockout game where afterwards we're talking about how jed spends put someone in his pocket you know there'll be memes going around you start to think actually maybe this thomas tuchel guy knows what he's talking about jed spends he's quick he's physical he's aggressive you know i'd fancy him one-on-one for pace wise you know maybe he's not kyle walker in terms of experience but listen i'm doing the classic english journalist thing of getting carried away after a big win um johnny just before we let you go obviously lots of listeners and england fans will now be really hyped for this tournament after such a great start what can they expect between now and the next game we've referenced you know inflatable unicorns in pools and things are we going to see lots of more good vibes and stuff you're heading back to kansas just after this what can we expect both from you and from the england camp yeah well i mean england are on a sort of split day today where the the the starters are doing a recovery session and um i don't think they've got a swimming pool at their um at their base it's not big enough they've gone for the intimate base so the inflatable unicorns i mean they might need a paddling pool to try and get them out um so no they'll come up with something else i'm sure recovery wise but then the other players are playing a closed doors game um there's a bit of a lull in terms of media activity and then it starts again in the build up to ghana um i think in terms of the news cycle we'll see quite a lot of rightful wallowing in yesterday's game.

45:45And then it starts again. But it's just so much better when the team is actually playing than when you're just building up to them playing. And from a journalist's point of view, it felt that my job truly started last night. Yeah, I probably won't hear from you again before, Johnny. So just before you go, where are you going to be watching? Scotland, Morocco? Right. So I think there's a few things going on in Kansas and I've been trying to work this one out. Do I go out and watch it in a restaurant or bar or do I watch it at home? And I think I'm just going to stay in the lovely Airbnb that Team Times is staying in.

46:25Maybe shut off from everyone else. our good friend Les Snowden might be around he may wish to join me but I don't think I watched Scotland's games in Germany in bars surrounded by English journalists which didn't turn out too well for me so I think I might just hide away and watch it quietly we've got a big screen as all American houses seem to have in the living room of this Airbnb so that's what my thoughts are right now no need to hunker down Johnny you've got three points come on we need to you know build up that confidence no need to hide in the Airbnb you never know I know but we want to win the group you know I mean like it's that's the spirit yeah that's the spirit that's the spirit blow Morocco away and take on Brazil absolutely the winning spirit you can tell the enthusiasm is high in America Johnny Northcroft thank you very much for joining me you can read Johnny's analysis on the Times website now.

47:24Thank you too for listening. We'll be back with another Daily World Cup show tomorrow. We'll see you then.

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