WORLD CUP DAY 9: Hope for Scotland and big dreams for USA

0:00Hannah Previtt here from The Business Podcast. Join me for a special episode with PWC UK's Marco Amitrano and WPP's Michael Froelich, recorded at the Greater Together Conference in Los Angeles, California. We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic growth and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Rally caps, lucky socks, never stepping on the foul line. Baseball is full of superstitions we hope give us an edge. But let's be honest, most of it's just luck. That's how I used to feel about hair growth products, until I found Nutraful, the official hair growth partner of Major League Baseball.

0:41It's physician-formulated, clinically tested, and recommended by dermatologists. An actual game plan for thinning hair. Nutraful has formulas for men at every stage. There's Nutraful Men for guys 18 to 49 to help grow thicker, fuller hair in 3 to 6 months. And Nutraful Men 50 Plus, designed specifically for men 50 and up who want to keep the hair they've got. Go to Nutraful.com, promo code BASEBALL, for$10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrafol is the only hair growth supplement brand trusted by MLB at Nutrafol.com. Spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com. Promo code baseball.

1:24That's Nutrafol.com. Promo code baseball.

1:34Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. These are our daily World Cup shows. your essential morning briefing on the 2026 tournament. This is Day 9, I'm Tom Clark, and later on we'll be discussing USA and Brazil. But first, Scotland, beaten by Morocco, a tight game, an intriguing game. Our favourite former footballer and Scott, Gregor Robertson, is with me. But first, let's hear from Michael Grant, our Scottish football correspondent, who was in Boston, and he sent me these thoughts. OK, that's it. Scotland have just lost their second game of the World Cup, 1-0.

2:09a strange game though Sabari scored in the second minute brilliant finish brilliant Diaz ball that just took out Scotland's defence and at that point you're thinking what is this going to be? Morocco were good early on made other chances and I think every Scot in the ground was fearful of a heavy defeat it didn't come they were outplayed for most of the first half began to show a bit of life at the end of it and then the second half they really did grow into the game and they began to move the ball better. They began to compete a bit better. They looked more threatening when Ben Garnadot came on after a Tierney injury.

2:47And, you know, in the end, they were really taking the game to Morocco, albeit there was a couple of late counterattacks when Morocco could have scored again. That was always going to be liable to happen with the way Scotland were having to take risks. A strange game to assess though because a defeat, but a low scoring defeat, might not be too damaging for Scotland because of the three points, if they're going to be in the mix for the third place league table, if they were to lose again narrowly to Brazil, they would probably be in those top eight places of the third place teams and possibly have enough to go through.

3:29So a weird one tonight, it looked really alarming at first, but I think in the end that there will be encouragement and positives that they can take from the match and they were able to make some chances. Christie had a chance even right at the end there was a corner which every Scot in the ground was willing to go in so defeat but they're still in there they're still fighting it looked like it could be another Qatar another Curacao heavy defeat but they spared themselves that and they did grow into the game so yeah on to Brazil on Wednesday and Scotlanders are still hanging in there Gregor, Michael there calling it strange, weird not necessarily words that maybe Scotland fans would associate with a 1-0 defeat in a World Cup but you sat here with me at 2.30 in the morning after the game what are your immediate reflections?

4:28Anger? Optimism? Where are we at?

4:31Gregor Robertson: I definitely didn't think I would feel this level of hope and positivity after 70 seconds and I definitely didn't think I would feel this level of positivity after 40 odd minutes. But I think from then onwards, there's a lot to be positive about. And yes, we've lost the game and yes, we still are infuriating at times in our inability to string a couple of passes together or just immediately give possession back and we're just facing another attack. That continues to infuriate. but in terms of improved aggression, I don't know, a bit of freedom. And when I say freedom, I don't mean we played free-willing football.

5:16Gregor Robertson: I just mean the shackles were off a bit and we realised that we had to step up and do much, much more because that first 40 minutes was abysmal. It was absolutely woeful. I mean, the start, Michael has spoken about, and there's not much you can say. Grant Hanley just tried to step up and it was an awful mistake and we were punished brutally and we were lucky to be kind of one goal behind given some of the chances they had in that first half but as I say the kind of flurry we had at the end of the first half and then the way we kind of took that momentum into the second half like it wasn't perfect but I think that momentum built and built and there were a lot of improved performances in the second half and by the end, Morocco were on the ropes.

6:09Yeah, a lovely summary there. You did well, very well, very measured, to not mention the penalty shouts. Do I take that to mean that you're looking at them going, thinking, heart says penalty, but actually, you know, the old defender's head said, nah, they're soft.

6:23Gregor Robertson: Look, it was a funny game, actually, from the sort of official's point of view because a lot was let go. a lot of things that you see in terms of players these days try and buy fouls they get themselves in between their opponent and the ball and fall to ground and immediately it's a free kick the referee didn't buy that a lot of the time part of that was refreshing but I suppose then you can't have it both ways because certainly in McTominay's case he went to ground pretty easily there was contact, there was one angle in particular where you think their knees came together and as soon as he feels that he's entitled to go over and it's in that category of you have seen it given but I'm not going to throw my hands up and scream about that the McGinn one is similar the defender stepped across him but it wasn't enough across him to be really blatant so the people I was watching the game with we all kind of agreed it was one of those where if the referee gives it, it won't be overturned and because he didn't give it, it wasn't going to be overturned.

7:30Yeah, balanced again, mate. I've got to say, I thought you were becoming in hot on the VARs on this one, but I think that's probably a fair assessment of those penalty calls. Going back to your point of the start of the game and the kind of woeful, as you described it, do you think that was down to formation? Obviously, a big change from Steve Clarke going to a kind of 3-5-2 system, Kieran Tierney coming in. I discussed with Michael Grant before this game on the podcast about where they were going to go ditch the 4-4-2 etc i'm not sure even michael had that in his kind of bingo card or they'll go 3-5-2 gan and doke on the bench what did you make of that switch in formation because i was watching this and thinking this looks like a big quite a big change in system and tactics that actually the team aren't quite ready for i have to be totally

8:16Gregor Robertson: honest i don't think it was as clear cut as it was like a 3-5-2 i think kieran tierney was given a task of marking Hakimi. Otherwise, it looked, a lot of the time looked like a back four. And I know Kieran Tierney was spending a lot of time chasing or following Hakimi because Hakimi as a right-back does not play at right-back much. But I think when we had the ball, he was a left midfielder. So I didn't like it. I have to nail my colours to the mask. I didn't like it. I didn't like the idea of leaving out Ben Gannon who is our one threat, our danger, our player who can stretch any opposition of any standard, because I've said this on a few occasions, his pace will terrify anyone.

9:02Gregor Robertson: Masraoui strolled through the game until Ben Ganondot came on, and then he looked like, oh, I've got to back off a bit here. And when he starts to back off, the rest of the back four have to back off. And when the back four start to back off, little pockets of space open up for people like McTominay to get on the ball more and get on the half turn. So it's crucial to have that threat. And there is logic in Steve Clarke's decision to play Kieran Tierney on the left and McGinn normally on the right because Masraoui actually is really important for Morocco. He often, although he plays as a left-back, he often rolls inside and plays as a kind of inverted midfielder.

9:42Gregor Robertson: So having someone who is defensively disciplined enough to match that, you can see the logic. And then we don't need to say anything about Hikimi. He's one of the best players in the world. And there is logic in trying to mark him very, very closely. But part of defending is actually about what you do when you have the ball. Because if you just keep giving it straight back or you don't have an outlet, you'll have far more defending to do. So from that point of view, it's illogical. And Ben Ganondolk has to play. He has to. He just changes the whole feel of the game from a Scotland point of view because we always have that threat.

10:22Gregor Robertson: And he didn't actually get the ball that much. He got it a few times out on the right and he caused some anxiety and he got one or two crosses. And it was what he did to the Morocco defence, what he made them do, and then the space that opened up for others. So, yeah, I know you can frame that as a 3-5-2. I didn't really see it that way. It was confusing. It was definitely confusing. The first half was confusing until the very last stages. And then it was almost a bit of a, I don't want to say a blessing in disguise because I love Guillaume Tierney as a footballer. And he actually started the second half not bad.

10:58Gregor Robertson: But him getting the injury and going off, Ganondoke coming on, just simplified things and everyone looked much more comfortable. Yeah, it was a remarkable change, wasn't it? Once you cut that kind of system switch and Ganondoke and the threat. Because you had Morocco, this excellent team that in the first half looked really physical, really fit, pace, playing at pace on the turn all the time, suddenly backing off. And I was watching it going, this is a bit mad. This is like the end of a cup game where the dominant team are trying to get back in the game. And Scotland, you've got Jack Hendry bringing the ball out from the back.

11:29It was remarkable to watch. What do you think that does for Scotland going forward? You know, you're talking quite positively here. Michael said it as well. You know, Scotland is still in it. that's the kind of tone of his piece on the Times website now, that's the kind of final line. It's precarious, but Scotland are still in it going into that final game. What does finishing that game do? Does it just give confidence? Does it give Steve Clarke things to think about? Does it actually clarify his thought process for the Brazil game? What do you think it does, finishing the game like that?

12:00Gregor Robertson: It means we're in it, and we know we're in it. I think we know that we... It was also so important not to concede another goal, and they had opportunities on the breakaway, because it seems like the people who crunch the numbers think that having a goal difference of minus one, possibly even minus two, and three points might qualify for the next round. So at the moment we're on zero and if we were to lose by one goal to Brazil, we might still go through. I know that's not a positive, it's not what you dreamed of when you entered the World Cup, talking in these sort of terms, but it's the reality.

12:37Gregor Robertson: So there's that. there's that just by the scoreline but I think actually the performance because Morocco are one of the you know certainly in the first half against Brazil and the first half against us you look at them and you think they're contenders they move the ball so quickly they're great in transitions like as soon as they lose the ball they hound and hurry and hustle and they've got some like two or three superstars but they look more we've spoken about a lot of teams who have great individuals, they look like a team or they have done in spells in both their games that are greater than the sum of their parts, but we really ruffled them and unsettled them and by the end of the game I thought Chari Riyad the defender was their best player he made some crucial interventions like the one on Scott McTominay when he found a bit of space in the box and hammered it and he got a crucial deflection to kind of put into the side netting the one where he took it off the toes of Linden Dykes and kind of almost scored a non-goal actually but it was another crucial one he was berating his teammates at the end saying come on we've got to hang in here so yeah all of that it doesn't matter we lost but I think given how much we've fallen flat on our faces in the last two Euros we haven't done that this time like the 80 game was a disappointment we started and the start of this game was an enormous disappointment but we competed really well against Morocco throughout the rest of the game and there's no reason why we can't do that against Brazil yeah I wanted to finish by just asking you about a player you've mentioned a couple of times Scott McTominay a lot of the build-up into this game Michael wrote a brilliant piece about him you know can he be this talisman I thought another thing about the system in the first half is that it didn't do what maybe Steve Clark wanted it to do, which was get Scott McTominay further up the pitch.

14:38Obviously, in the second half, he came into it more. He did slightly look, and this is, you know, you might shout me down here, he looked a little bit like a kind of Christiana Ronaldo type figure who was just desperate to try and shoot and score and do everything himself as soon as he got the ball. Maybe out of frustration, who knows. What do you think about the World Cup he's having? Because he's not quite delivered what many would hope for, and I obviously would, you know, I think a lot of neutrals would love to see him light up the World Cup as well. Scotland need him to fire don't they if they're going to get anything against Brazil and he's not done it yet

15:09Gregor Robertson: No I think that's fair to say I thought it was really interesting he had a very heated discussion with a number of teammates at the hydration break in the second half he was raging about something and he came out after that and was much much better I don't look I think in the first game he was playing as a deep line midfielder and they expect him to be not deep line but as one of the two central midfielders and you want him to be closer to the goal, you want him to be in those pockets that he started to pick up the ball on the half turn later on in the second half against Morocco, that's where you want him to be, that's where he's at, he's most dangerous and he got the ball and he was running at them he still doesn't have many options around him, that's the one issue but he caused them problems and look I don't think anyone played well in the first half and I think he's one of many players who grew into the game in the second half and grew in stature but it's fair to say he's not as someone who's your talisman he's not really someone who's lived up to that billing so far.

16:20Gregor Robertson: I think the same could be said of John McGinn there were flashes, there were moments where he was kind of ruffling up Hakimi there were moments where he was getting on the half turn and buying fouls and you know there's moments where he linked well in the first game down the left but he's not really done it consistently either I think I don't know we're at a World Cup and our approach has not always been one that gets the best out of our best players I think that's the reality of it so I'm not saying that that's going to change against Brazil because we're playing Brazil we're still going to have to be really disciplined and dogged defensively but we're going to have to offer more when we win the ball back and that's when we need to see the most from McGinn, McTominay and Ben Gann and Doak.

17:07Yeah more to come from McTominay and McGinn we certainly hope so there's more to come from us as well we're just going to take a quick break but when we come back we're going to talk USA and Brazil stick with us. Thank you.

17:46the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click granger.com, or just stop by.

18:17Gregor Robertson: Granger, for the ones who get it done. A BetterHelp ad. Hold on. One second. I just need to...

18:33What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications, no expectations, just space to talk. With BetterHelp, therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com slash randompodcast for 10 % off your first month of online therapy.

18:59Welcome back to The Game Podcast. These are our daily World Cup shows. This is day nine, and shortly we'll be talking about USA and Brazil. But first, we always like to hear from listeners and readers I've got a couple of questions here Gregor and first of all Brian wants to know why do England keep picking Jordan Pickford as number one in goal he thinks he's too reckless and tries to play out and outsmart attacking forwards well Brian I can't answer that question because I'm far too devoted to Jordan Pickford I can only say that I disagree with you I can only say that I disagree with you completely so I'll defer to our former footballer Gregor Roatsen Gregor do you think Jordan Pickford's too reckless with the ball?

19:35Gregor Robertson: No, I don't think it's his strong point. Look, he's got a great strike of the ball. You know, he can spray big diagonals and stuff. I think he's less composed when he's doing the thing he's being asked to do, which is kind of stand on the ball, almost bait the press and then play a lot of passes maybe into midfield or with his back four. I think he's less comfortable doing that than he is at spraying the diagonals but look he's he's been one of England's best players for many many years now so I'm kind of in on your side in this one I think I think Brian you can take a win and a defeat from that one that's a Gregor Robertson classic there a yes and a no to the answer to your question and Gregor an interesting one here from David talking about kind of modern football he said why do so many teams throw the ball backwards at throw-ins, even when they're in the opposition half?

20:28Don't they practice attacking options? I mean, it's a good point. Why do you think it might be?

20:33Gregor Robertson: I mean, my initial sort of instinctive answer to that is that any way of having safe, good possession from a throw-in is an opportunity to take. Obviously, there have been developments in this season in particular with long throw-ins. If you've got that capability, a lot of teams will do it. if you don't there's a reason why so many teams now in the World Cup we see them taking kick-off and booting the ball straight out of play because actually when you press in and you box an opposition almost anywhere on the pitch if you want to do it you can box them in it's a very difficult thing to do to come out with the ball with comfortable positions so if you see that opportunity and you can throw it back and maybe work the ball around the other side of the pitch I think that's why teams take it play it safe that might be why maybe we'll see some more attacking options as we head towards the knockout stages.

21:25Now, back to the action. USA 2-0 winners against Australia. That means they're through to the knockouts. Another convincing win. Confidence is growing in America. Peter Rutzler was there for the Times and he sent me these thoughts. Well, I'm not sure Maurizio Pochettino, in his wildest dreams, could have dreamt of a better start to this World Cup campaign than what we've seen so far from his team. Two wins, a comfortable 2-0 win here at Lumen Field against Australia means they've qualified for round of play two already and plus five goal difference another commanding comfortable display here against an Australia team that you know they did present a possible banana skin for them, they did beat Turkey unexpectedly but this result was never really in doubt it's the kind of result that may really ramp up expectations, belief and optimism and that's And I think one of the things, this is really sort of uncharted territory for the US.

22:23The last time they won back-to-back games at a World Cup was in 1930, which was the inaugural tournament. There were only 13 teams in it, and they actually reached the semifinals. Defence is kind of seen as the weak point, potentially, for the team. And so far, they haven't really had a significant test. So that probably should temper expectations in the same way that, you know, a team like beating a team like Australia should also temper those expectations. But there's a lot of things that will offer encouragement. The first, obviously, is the fact that Christian Kulisic didn't play. We talked before the game about how he was battling to be fit.

23:01He had a calf injury, didn't make it in the end, but they coped fine without him. Pochettino introduced Ricardo Pepe, a number nine. and you wondered whether that might change where they do their build-up structures. But it really didn't. Pochettino wanted him and Balogun to pin the three centre-halves and Australia play with the back five. But we saw the same wide combinations between Robinson, Pepe and Tillman on that left-hand side. And then on the right, we had Weston McKenney and Serginio Dest and Balogun and some rotations within that. The opening goal was Balogun running into the spaces we normally see Pulisic running into to set up Cameron Burgess' own goal.

23:41So I think the fact that we saw that consistency is encouraging. The other thing that's really impressive so far has been their intensity of their off-the-ball press, especially in the first halves of both games we've seen. Pochettino was particularly pleased about that, the attitude of his group, pointed out that this was the thing that pleased him the most. So back-to-back wins, a spot already in the knockout phase. I mean the chance of the US potentially matching their best performance in the modern era which was in 2002 when they reached a quarter final that feels more and more doable, the fact that this discussion about them as dark horses for the competition now underlines how impressive this start has been and it's a good thing for the tournament as well the co-hosts are doing so well the atmosphere here in Seattle was fantastic, before the game we talked about how there's a rich soccer culture here and it really felt like the world cup was here you know there's adverts everywhere and i think before the game it was a really really enjoyable atmosphere and environment there was a march to the ground thousands descended onto the waterfront this march was led by a group of guys on horseback dressed in revolutionary gear from revolutionary war gear just creating and building that anticipation up and then pochettino actually said afterwards that he felt quite emotional in the dressing room even though he's not American he felt it and the players have felt it too and if that sort of groundswell of belief and optimism keeps growing and growing and you know that can take the team a lot further Pocino said that himself so I think once we see a team maybe Turkey will do this really sort of test this back line we'll get a clear sense of their full abilities but from what we've seen so far it's really impressive from the US and they're in a good position heading towards knockouts.

25:34Gregor, Pete is talking in that note there and in a piece on the Times website using the phrase dark horses. It's obviously great for the tournament. I've discussed this, you know, we're talking about Mexico there through, mentioned that on yesterday's show. Canada playing well, of course, as well. All three co-hosts looking strong. That is good for any tournament, I think. What do you make of this USA team? You know, two pretty convincing wins. I've got to say I was pretty disappointed in Australia in this one I was hoping they might offer a little bit more but just how good do you think this team USA team is?

26:08Gregor Robertson: When I've watched their games actually you know it's been interesting we spoke with Alison the other night after watching England saying that they look like a Premier League team I've actually thought the same in sort of broad terms about watching US and Canada a little bit as well I think they play really high energy football they have some pace and dynamism I think Balogun is a star he's the kind of player with X factor obviously Pulisic wasn't fit for this game and if you look around the team they have a lot of players who kind of mid-table Premier League players Tim Ream, Richards, McKinney, Adams Anthony Robinson they're very good players and I think you can see Pochettino's stamp on the team too tactically the energy the energy is the biggest thing and I think they look kind of I think Dark Horse there's a lot of excitement you can tell, there's a lot of excitement now building in the US about their team I still think putting them in a Dark Horse category is a little bit much personally but they have been pretty impressive and they've carried the threat going forward.

27:30Gregor Robertson: So it's good. I think it is good for the tournament. We said this earlier on in preview shows that this is going to be a World Cup that's potentially quite newsy. A lot going on off the pitch and in the nation as a whole. But I think Pochettino has kind of parted all that to one side and he's got a team playing good football that the country can get behind. And I think that is a positive for the tournament, for the World Cup. Yeah, definitely. The World Cup's hotting up. We're on day nine, plenty more days to come, but it feels like the excitement is building both over there and back home. You can read Peter Rutzler's report on the Times website now discussing where in the pecking order this Team USA fits.

28:20And if you've got any other questions or comments either about Team USA or about anything else in the tournament, do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Now, at that point, I did let Gregor Robertson go and get some sleep and I went to watch the second half of Brazil's 3-0 win against Haiti. Thankfully, we had James Geerbrandt there reporting for us and he sent me this note on what he thought of that win and whether it showed that Carlo Ancelotti's side were in fact contenders. Overall, I don't think it was a very impressive performance by Brazil. I mean, they only managed eight shots and 1.5 expected goals against the second lowest ranked team in the tournament, which is not amazing, really.

29:06But on the other hand, you have to say that particularly at times during the first half, there were flickers of what we've come to expect from Brazil at the World Cup, especially in the group stages. That playfulness, that effortlessness, that combination play, some nice goals, some nice celebrations. I think the interesting thing was that so much of the good play that Brazil had and all their goals and best chances really came transitioning against that high Haitian defensive line which left quite a lot of space for Brazil to attack. And they did attack it quite devastatingly. And I guess you could sort of see that one of two ways.

29:58You could sort of say, well, you know, not every team is going to be that naive. Not every team is going to leave that much space in behind. But on the other hand, I think it was also Mateus Cunha, who was a real success story of this game for Brazil, really, and for Carlo Ancelotti, who I think created some of that space by pulling some of those defenders with his deep dropping movement, dropping into deeper areas and taking defenders with him. And I think you can also say, well, actually, in the later stages of the tournament to be successful, could that be the recipe for Brazil? In a knockout game against a Spain or a Germany, could that formula of you know using the pace of Vinicius and Cunha on the break you know leaning on the you know what looks like quite a solid back four anchored by Marquinhos and Gabriel world-class pairing really you know could that actually be a very successful formula for them so yeah I don't think Brazil will have necessarily convinced too many people that they're winners in waiting but but I think there were elements there to be positive about for sure.

31:20Thanks to James Gearbrandt there and wrapping up the night was a pretty remarkable match between Turkey and Paraguay it finished 1-0 Paraguay taking the lead after 65 seconds but Turkey dominated possession throughout what was a very tetchy game a big moment of this World Cup and probably a big moment for football in general. Miguel Almiron was sent off for covering his mouth when in confrontation with an opponent. That left Paraguay with 10 men for most of the second half but they hung on brilliantly defending really well and managing this game. Turkey fancied by some to be dark horses are out.

31:54They have had 62 shots across their opening two games but have failed to score in either of them. And that wraps up today's show another big night to come. Netherlands v Sweden should be a cracker, Germany and Japan in action too. We'll be back tomorrow. We'll see you then.

32:18Hannah Previtt here from the Business Podcast. Join me for a special episode with PWC UK's Marco Amitrano and WPP's Michael Froelich, recorded at the Greater Together Conference in Los Angeles, California. We'll discuss how partnerships between the US and the UK can drive economic growth and shape the future of transatlantic collaboration. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVAC on its last leg.

32:57If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24-7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.