Worst weekend; Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal or Newcastle?

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1:36Gregor Robertson: Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Manchester City win the Carabao Cup and the kid with the Manchester dialing code tattooed on his arm is the hero. Two goals from City's Academy graduate Nico O 'Reilly secured victory against Arsenal at Wembley, but will the result have an impact on the Premier League title race? Tottenham Hotspur are stunned by Nottingham Forest. In the relegation battle six-pointer, are Igor Tudor's days as Spurs manager numbered? And after another miserable day for Liverpool, Newcastle and Chelsea is patience among supporters reaching breaking point? I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today we have The Times senior sports writer Alison Rudd, The Times London football reporter Gary Jacob and making his first appearance in the studio of the season the first for ages it's The Times Manchester based football writer Paul Hurst Thank you, what a lovely welcome That was a nice welcome Is that why they're the red carpet outside as well?

2:30Gregor Robertson: Great to have you here Hursty I'm sure I've had the cappuccinos to go for you I can't afford that I'm going south Hursty you were here for the big final last weekend this might sound like a strange question to start with given that it was a cup final weekend. But it was a huge weekend of football on many levels. So I'm going to start by asking you all which result was the most significant of the weekend for you? Alison, I'll start with you. For me, it was Liverpool's defeat. Surprise, surprise. Well, no, for grown-up reasons, I think a lot of people got carried away with the performance against Galatasaray.

3:12were not very good but the idea that that had arrested all the problems at Liverpool was shown to be untrue by the performance of Brighton which was much more like the performances against Wolves and Spurs I have argued Liverpool need a reset and at the end of the season they should bring in Xabi Alonso I don't think I just don't think I just don't think Slott is going to be the man for the future Okay we'll come to that You asked me the question I know that was a very good answer

3:42Gregor Robertson: but we'll come to that in a second this is why you're here firstly go on what was your I was maybe it's because I went to the actual game but the Carabao Cup final for me was very very significant I thought I don't think it'll alter the outcome of the title race I still think Arsenal will win it but it will add I think a little bit of spice a bit of life into the the running in the title race because you know City have got that psychological thing in their locker now that they've beaten Arsenal. So obviously they come to the Etihad in a couple, I think it's a four weeks' time. And so they'll have that in their minds then.

4:20I think the title race was in danger of really sort of petering out a little bit, wasn't it? Limping along to the finish. But now you've got players from City coming out and saying, well, we can smell blood in the water and all that kind of stuff. So it's given them belief that they can do it, or at least push Arsenal a lot closer and there'll be those doubts maybe creeping into Arsenal's minds as to whether they can get over the line again.

4:48Gregor Robertson: I'll probably go for the Spurs game. Yeah, I think Arsenal will get over the line just. I've said that all along, but after Spurs had two relatively better performances, I think yesterday was probably a big shock to their system and yeah, it's sort of hard to know where they're going to go from here, what's going to happen to Tudor. I know we'll talk about it and the bigger picture of them and it feels like quite a monumental result in the weekend. Okay, would you agree? No, I'm going with the cup final so I get to say the vote and that means we start with the cup final. He didn't say that before we were on air.

5:26Gregor Robertson: Let's start with the cup final because... Greg's in charge. I'm in charge. I'm in charge. It's the Nico O 'Reilly final and you know perfect timing yeah Hurstey you wrote about him before the weekend fantastic profile piece for him in the times where he's a Boyhood City fan about as I say he's got 0161 tattooed on his arm turned 21 a day before this was a remarkable day for him yeah I know I probably should have put a couple of quid on him scoring shouldn't I that's quite sigacious really but yeah the original idea for that piece that went in the paper on Saturday was I said to I read to James a few weeks ago but he has been the most consistent player for City this season.

6:08That's obviously been the problem with City as a whole, that they've had ups and downs within the squad. There's no real player that's been consistently good, apart from O 'Reilly. I know he had a bad game in Madrid against Valverde, but every City player did. And yes, they just really summed him up. He's starting at left-back. He's coming up against Bakayo Saka, who really didn't get much of a sniff. We were saying, weren't we, in the first 10 minutes, every Arsenal attack is going down the right. They're always targeting that area. You think they're saying it's a weakness there? Probably because they thought Aki coming into the team was a weakness as well.

6:48But maybe with O 'Reilly as well. Maybe they'd seen what Valverde had done to O 'Reilly. But they didn't really have much luck, did we? We were saying the second half. Yeah. The early chance where Trafford made a couple of good saves. but then second half he ends up popping up fox in the box you know with a with a couple of goals and that just sums his season up he's everywhere he's he's he's athletic he's strong he's really creative and throughout his time in the city academy he's played the defensive midfield center midfield you know number 10 right wing false nine and he's he's just such a valuable player to have in your squad.

7:29Gregor Robertson: There's a great story in your piece as well about when Pep saw one of his coaches in a restaurant before he made his debut I think it was a Salford he made his debut and he said he's playing tomorrow I'm playing at my left back and I was like what? I was going to feel surprised. Yeah it was Ben Wilkinson the under 21 coach and he was out in the same restaurant as Pep and he said oh by the way Nico O 'Reilly's starting tomorrow, his first start and he was oh great, Wilkinson big fan of O 'Reilly's he brought him through the academy and just assumed that he'd be playing in midfield or you know as a number 10 and he said no I'm playing him at left back and Milkins was like all right oh you know in Pep we trust you know the kind of thing he's he rarely gets it wrong.

8:11Is he too flexible for Thomas Tuchel? Like Thomas Tuchel hasn't got Trent going partly because partly not all entirely but partly because he does pop up in other positions than fullback. Do you think O 'Reilly could be... Is that what Tuchel wants from his left back? To be someone who suddenly pops up in the box? You called him a fox in the box. He was the left back.

8:34Gregor Robertson: Yeah. I don't think he actually knows what he wants because he obviously played Myles Lewis Kelly in some earlier games in his tenure and he did step into midfield. So I think the thing with Nico O 'Reilly is he can do both. The best thing about Nico O 'Reilly, from what I've managed to understand from talking to his... youth coaches and people at City was that he absorbs any kind of information that the coach gives him without a problem so if Tuchel wants him to stay sat in that left back position he'll stay there that he will you know he's he's got that temperament he's not going to be bombing up and down unless he's told to do that so I think he can do whatever you know whatever Tuchel wants of him so I don't think that will be an issue and just coming back to the point about versatility I know what you mean.

9:19Sometimes you can be too versatile, can't you? Where you think you don't get pigeonholed in one slot. But I think particularly in tournament football, where you get injuries popping up everywhere and you do want someone who can sort of fill it in different places as well. If you are going to go far in the tournament, you're going to have walking wounded by the end of it.

9:38Gregor Robertson: Alison, I mean, obviously O 'Reilly was the difference, but do you feel like on the balance of playing this final overall, City were worthy winners? Arsenal looked quite nervous about the whole prospect of the first step of the quadruple. And it meant what you saw was inhibited football, whereas City, who have won it like a billion times, aren't scared of the competition, they're not scared of Wembley. and there's something in the air about Pep, whether he's going to stay or go and whether it means more. Everything, every result just seems to mean more this season. So they were like, they were enjoying themselves.

10:14They were aggressive. They were fun to watch. They were just going for the win in any way that they saw possible. I mean, when you rely on wingers, that's always going to give you an exciting match, I felt. I felt Doku and Semenya were excellent and playing with freedom. And the contrast with Arsenal was, oh, well, let's try and keep this quite steady and defensive and rely on set pieces. And they withdrew into themselves. And in the second half, I felt they were bullied in an attractive way, not in an overly physical way. They were bullied in terms of personality more than anything.

10:53Gregor Robertson: What do you think about that, Gary? They started off quite well, I thought, Arsenal. And like Hurstie said, they were attacking down the right and they got in a few times. But they couldn't get through City's press. City's press was very good in the centre. When they went long, Jocheres wasn't good enough to kind of outpace City at the back of a pace and his control wasn't good enough. And Hinkapi's booking, that's what I'm saying, Hinkapi's booking for a silly challenge, a rash challenge in the other half. Then just before half-time, Semenyo gets in a couple of times and you felt there, and you see Calafari warming up, he felt like there the game had slightly changed because both goals came from that side.

11:32Gregor Robertson: Di Kappi, he's on a booking, he can't do anything and he's having a tough time against the guy. And I actually thought Arsenal weren't going to consider relatively comfortable at the start of the second half until that mistake from Kepa. Okay, let's talk about Kepa. But I think there's some bigger issues with Arsenal about he's built a team of physical athletes but they don't have a Bernardo Silva. They don't have a guy who can tip-tap-tick in the centre. Declan's not like that. Zubamendi's not like that. Odegaard maybe when he plays, but he's not. He's more technical. Mourinho could be technical.

12:08Gregor Robertson: Is he injured? Yeah, is he injured? It feels like in that sense, they haven't got that. So he built a team that probably will win the league through winning enough of the games he has to win. But in a one-off game against a team who's got that a little bit more, and Saka really his form has not been good last season he had two players on him yesterday but in a space somewhere else and they never used it I think Timber was a big miss because Timber against O 'Reilly would have been a better match than White likes to get forward he never got forward yesterday in the same way he likes to kind of dovetail alongside Saka I think that Timber in you was kind of a bit of a that physicality against O 'Reilly would have been would have been interesting but you also saw when Calafuri came on he did what O 'Reilly he got four and he created he had one head and he had he created one sort of chance and it feels like Arteta basically was risk averse you know that's his biggest thing he's risk averse he doesn't want to take the risk he doesn't want to go for it and they sort of had a team that was perhaps like Alison said hoping on to kind of stay nil-nil for a period of time and nick something and frankly their corners which have been saving them for the season weren't weren't good yesterday we were saying weren't they didn't clear the near post yeah there was hilarious but when they started of the second half where they won a corner and I've never heard a corner cheered so loudly by the fans it was like they scored a goal I was just I think it was Havertz was winding the play the fans up as well wasn't it but geeing them up but I was just like if that's in your mind that you know that is your best chance of scoring you know that you've got no kind of plan B I mean you really become over reliant on it don't you you do become risk averse it could certainly yeah it could certainly sort of shift your thought process about how much risk to take Caps.

13:49Gregor Robertson: In the United game, when they lost 3-2, they were actually playing for corners to get a corner. They were getting stuck trying to break them down. They were playing for it. Sometimes they will kick the ball off the opposition to get the corner. Kepp, although you mentioned him fleetingly. That was the moment that really changed the balance of the game as well. It was the moment. Come away from Friday, press conference with Mikel, I didn't think he was not going to play Kepp because that was the message that came to me on Friday. Kepp is playing. He never said it in those words. You can understand it.

14:16Gregor Robertson: He probably thinks, if I take him out now, he loses confidence and you can see all those things after he argued he argued that it would have been unfair and all of that the problem is that michael isn't necessarily a man who's got sentiment and he shouldn't have showed any and also um he's a man who relies on fine margins or small margins he goes on about all the time when you're small margin you're a goalkeeper and rye has been the best goalkeeper in the premier league for the last two seasons anything this is a manager though this is a manager though that you know at the start of his role he spoke about the biggest thing he learned under Pep was that he had to be ruthless and in the moment where he probably had to show a bit of a ruthless edge you can say you cannot totally take that argument about it's fair it's the right thing to do but if this you know this is a mood changer if this affects Arsenal's running and their first opportunity to win a trophy in six years their opportunity to go forward and win more trophies more silverware that's surely more important Alison Yeah but you rewind the question is why have they got Kepa as the backup keeper anyway because he's not he's the most expensive goalkeeper in the world and I think it's still hanging around his neck as a weight to be honest because when he's in the spotlight he always seems to do either make the wrong decision or make a gaffe and that comes he's clearly not innately a poor keeper but he clearly has trouble with being on the big stage if City had lost would we be saying the same thing about Trafford being picked if he'd made a mistake you don't know but my point is maybe with Kepa you do because he's had a succession of poor in the spotlight performances and maybe the sentimentality came from Arteta believing he's had such an influence on him that he's going to rise to the challenge this time Just to make it clear to the listeners 2019 Kepa was part of the Chelsea team that lost on penalties to Manchester City but the game was obviously best remembered for his refusal to be substituted ahead of penalties and in 2022 he lost they lost against Liverpool he was only Chelsea player to miss the penalty he's actually lost he's been a runner-up in three FA Cup finals and three League Cup finals I thought the thing that really got to him was not the Mercedes it was that moment before when the long ball he chased it and Raya would have been a ready out of goal would have dealt with that would have come out head out no problem at all he was slow coming out got a complete pickle and i think that got into his head really for those because it was almost immediately after the the cross was it yeah yeah that contributed to the there's sort of an unease about arsenal from that point on that point onwards and we've talked about backup goalkeepers city have always done that they've always pep's always brought the the backup goalkeeper in for competitions.

17:14And part of his argument is you can, that person, whether it be, you know, Claudio Bravo, Zach Steffan or Ortega, they don't want to spend the whole season not thinking they're going to get a chance or play their part. They want to feel a part of it. But I do think there's, when he gets to the final, like you said, there's silverware on the line.

17:34Gregor Robertson: And there's different contexts. Those clubs, Manchester City haven't gone so long without. Yeah. I mean, Trafford is, Trafford should not be. number two, should he? Trafford was bought as a number one and they very quickly changed as well. They're really, I mean, he spoke to us about that a few weeks ago, Trafford. They're clearly very unhappy about how that turned out. They signed him and then, you know, hello, who's this coming through the door? It's, you know, Donnarumma, one of the best goalkeepers in the world. Just wasn't expecting it at all for him to be, not to be number one. So, but credit to him, to Trafford.

18:04He made a few good saves and his distribution is really good. He's really quick getting out there and that is one of Donnarumma's faults I do think that he's probably got to move on hasn't he Trafford but Gary said Gary said that Reyes the best keeper in the league and I think the main reason for that is the relationship he has with his team and how he fits into the team so he sometimes plays like a sweeper he's always talking to Arteta he's always thinking about the tactics of them he's not like a normal keeper he's very very involved and you feel like he's part of the back line not a keeper and the rest

18:42Gregor Robertson: so that's a big loss so when he's not there that relationship obviously doesn't exist he's not there and so there's a different pressure put on the keeper who isn't normally in the position because he can't pretend to be David Rea so he just has to resort to what he knows which isn't what the rest of his team know and I think it's really hard to have a backup keeper that you put in the spotlight when the person he's replacing is someone who's as unique as Raya. I mean, I think the great thing about Raya this season is that if you look at all of his saves, they've been at key moments in games and often the team, the other team has done nothing for Arsenal, had all the ball and suddenly he's had to make a save.

19:24Gregor Robertson: You think it's Everton last week, Brighton, there's countless of them. So he just manages to keep his concentration all the time. And another thing I think Arteta, when Arteta's saying after, it's unfair to change it. It's like, well, if that was his view, why didn't you just say that on Friday or before? Why didn't you just say, make it clear, he's my goalkeeper for all the way to the final. He's my goalkeeper for the FA Cup all the way to the final. He hasn't said that. So even he, he's either playing a game or even he's not totally sure which way it's going. Because if you make it clear, no one's asking.

19:54Gregor Robertson: You've got it out of the blue. Somebody even said to him the other day, well, you played in a final for Arsenal where Wenger changed the goalkeeper. What was that like? And he sort of, he batted that off. what's it like to be in that team where suddenly your goalkeeper is completely different from one you normally play with? Well, the upshot is suddenly Arsenal's procession doesn't look like towards the Premier League title doesn't look quite so straightforward. I mean, what do we think this does, if anything? I mean, nine points clear, City have a game in hand and they play each other on April 19th.

20:25Gregor Robertson: It doesn't look as straightforward as it did before this final. Yeah, no, there will be a psychological advantage this game by winning this game for City. I do think they will drop points, City, before the end of the season. I just can't see them winning every game. I think there is a certain element of inexperience in some parts of the squad. Whether that'll change after yesterday is amazing to be seen. Pep always talks about that. The first time you win a trophy, you can see players grow as a result of it. You know, they become more mature and more confident after experiences such a day. So maybe that will happen to them.

21:06But I do think particularly, I don't know how long Ruben Diaz will be out for, but he's a big blow with, if he's out for a while, they've not got Cavardi all as well. And so there are a few question marks. It'll add spice to it. I do like the fact there's a bit of, there were a few kind of moments where it almost kicked off yesterday, didn't it? And there is a real kind of tension. Yeah, I think we do want to see that in a title race. We don't want to see it kind of peter out until the end.

21:37Gregor Robertson: The next game is Keesling. I also play Bournemouth on the Saturday. City play Chelsea. So you feel like if it's 12 points, City's two games in hand, and the City dropped points, then it's probably Arsenal dropped points. Yeah, 85 minutes on Arsenal, we're 0-0 against Everton before City have played. You know, it's swinging the other way. So which way do you think it's going to go, Alison?

22:02Just as I think, every time I think City have got what it takes, they just suddenly drop points. And it's entirely what you say. It's just that they've got just slightly too many inexperienced and slightly younger players. A few of them are out of form as well at the moment. Harland, I know he scored an immense amount of goals. And he grafted a lot yesterday. He played really well off the ball. he's really did a job for the team but in terms of scoring goals he's not in great form, Foden I mean one of my favourite players has just gone you know, seen him do incredible things down the years has gone quiet and you know he doesn't seem to have, Nico Gonzalez another player who they brought in who was going to be the rock of midfield sort of gone he's not picking him and then Rinders as well, he's gone off the boil a bit so it just depends on whether they can rediscover their form or whether you know you've got the likes of dokku um and semenya who grew even more as a result of of sunday because they were they were really good they were they were fantastic two wingers or two fullbacks for city yeah very very good well and mark gate comes back of course yeah he's not a bad player yeah

23:14Gregor Robertson: well promises to be a fascinating uh few weeks ahead in the title race um at the other end of the table however a terrifying few weeks ahead for Tottenham Hotspur after a 3-0 turned out to be a thrashing by Nottingham Forest in this huge huge game in the relegation battle. Alison where the heck do Spurs go from here? Unbelievable really. The goals they conceded. Jésus with a free header, Gibbs White totally unmarked for the second and then the stadium just seemed like it was in stunned silence when you rifled in the third and it's just like and then Igor Trudor doesn't do the post-match press conference because of a family bereavement that just throws more sort of confusion into the the whole mix what did he do now?

24:03I think that's

24:06Gregor Robertson: the Bords reaction as well if I did have power if I did have power at Spurs and wanted them to stay up I think I'd make a change of manager because I'd really like to see the meeting, the debrief on this, the choices Tudor's making, changing the system. If you go into a club that are in a relegation battle and you're told your job isn't to think about what might happen next season, it's not to think about whether you could be the long-term manager of Tottenham Hotspur, your job is to save them from the drop. There are certain rules you follow and that is to keep it simple and make sure everyone knows their job and work incredibly hard at it.

24:50He's changed the formation. He's changed the system. He's given on a plate after the Atletico game. He's given on a plate. Xavi Simons got some of the highest marks from the UEFA marking system. He was man of the match in that game. And he drops him. He's an incredible player. And he's a wonderful player. So why, but is he, is Tudor overthinking things? why there are so little glimpses of light in that Spurs team that this is probably for all his it was fated as a guy who had the new manager bounce quality about him he's in over his head and I don't I just don't understand why no one else can predict what the line-up's going to be or where people are going to be playing don't get it Gary

25:38Gregor Robertson: do you think Spurs make a change? they've obviously got a few weeks to kind of stew in it with the international break obviously as we said the family bereavement is also another added complication and potential factor we don't know last week you gave him a bit of hope that he could come through with a couple of results now I think they're probably going to have to risk it they can't risk it I just don't know where the change is and we've just been discussing it if I say one name I'll be clipped up and then I'll just go but if you were going to call up Roy Hoshan we have support I know I'm not available on Twitter any Soyuz fans but he's kept teams up he's good at making people fill a hundred million dollars isn't he as a human being he's very good he's done it and he's not going to be asking for a long contract rightly or wrongly he's the type of manager as you know well he could make a team organise guys, get a grind out of your results.

26:44Gregor Robertson: And I don't get panned for that, but I just don't see many options and he is a more... The only other option was Ralph from Southampton, but then he probably won a longer contract and even then he's not managed again for a year. Yeah, the best thing about Roy is that he does get the players orderly. I don't think he'd take it. No, I don't think he would take it either. Would you give it to Redknapp? I mean there is a genuine point About who would want to take it They've not won a league game in 2026 They've won two of their last 22 league games They're on the 13 league games without a win Equals the second longest Winless league run in their history The record of 16 goes back to 1935 This is a historically bad season And a team who's so fragile Like you saw when one goal went in They just completely slammed Good luck your terms is if you've been the idea of changing someone you've tried to get someone now permanently but that's going to only be deserving and whether he would do it who knows you know we're going to play Sunderland next away and they're Brighton, Wolves, Villa, Leeds, Chelsea and Everton do you see enough wins out of those?

27:56Gregor Robertson: absolutely not they're all teams either something's playful or in good form Sunderland, Wolves, Villa and Chelsea away and they've got Brighton, Leeds and Everton home I mean it's not all of those teams apart from Wolves are playing for something and Moles have been better recently Well from Nottingham Forest's perspective this was a huge one, it was Vitor Pereira's first league win as Forest manager, Forest's fourth manager of the season, this wacky season but they really, you know, their big players stepped up and actually you look at the teams and you think Forest have a better more quality, they have a better team They look like a team, they look like a team look like they're playing for each other, there was a lot of camaraderie out there, a lot of self-belief, a lot of energy.

28:39That's all you can ask for when you're in a relegation battle, I think. And also they look like they were having fun playing in the stadium. Everyone loves going there. The fans love it. You can hear the fans. You shouldn't be able to hear the fans. You can hear the away fans. They're louder. There's something about the acoustics in that place that's badly designed so that the away fans are the ones you hear. Ridiculous.

28:59Gregor Robertson: And then the goal... I'm just going to say, this is another club with goalkeeping issues. The cardio kind of not quite as vociferously but booed again by his own supporters I mean these players the confidence is absolutely on the floor can a manager lift them now isn't Tudor partly responsible for that as well he just seems to have created a very negative kind of vibe in the whole camp doesn't he I was just thinking the way that he reacted to when he subbed Kopinski not going over and comforting him and when the players come off they go over to him and shake his hand rather than he goes over to them and shakes their hand and it seems a really bad kind of really bad atmosphere throughout that club at the moment and you were talking about clubs going there and wanting to win and like rub Spurs' nose in it it's a bit like that with Man United countless times in the post third year when they've been struggling teams have come to Old Trafford and raised their game massively just because they think oh god we've got a really good chance of meeting Man United Old Trafford here and you know that's clear what's happening with Spurs at the moment but the reality is they don't really have to raise their game that much do they to beat Spurs The bigger picture is at the board level you just don't know if they know what they're doing you know Haritichi was very keen to move Frank on a lot earlier maybe that was the right call you know he's left we've got Lang and Vinay there you know I shouldn't say it Spurs fans obviously are on Daniel's back about going and Daniel Levy had many a fault but he probably would have acted a lot sooner.

30:32Gregor Robertson: People remember he got rid of Santini quite early on. He made some decisions at manager which he needed to make. I don't know. I don't know where you would go. Well, the relegation picture now looks like Nottingham Forest moved three points clear of the danger zone. Spurs are setting a point above 18th place West Ham, who lost against Aston Villa. I was at this game and if there's any kind of hope for Spurs, it's that West Ham slipped back into their old ways in this game very much so. Why was that? Well they don't have Crescensio Somerville who's been their best player since New Year and they had suffered an injury to Jean-Claude Todibo the centre half in the warm up and remarkably instead of putting Max Killman into the team Nuno's worked with at Wolves and he's not had a good time at West Ham but he's an experienced Premier League defender played Freddie Potts and changed the whole formation went change from a back 3 to a back 4 and the team looked all at sea and Aston Villa were excellent and it could have been 5-0 at half time.

31:38Gregor Robertson: So yeah, I mean, if there is any hope, it's that West Ham's sort of renaissance was taken. How long is Somerville at four doing your record? They hope he's going to be back for the FA Cup semi-final against Leeds. And if not that, then the return of the Premier League. So there's hope in that sense. There is hope, yes. Because he has been so integral to their resurgence. Right, I'm going to put you on the spot now. I'm going to ask you one. There's also the West Ham goalkeeper. start of the season, couldn't deal with crosses first three games. He was a Potter signing. Couldn't deal with crosses.

32:09Gregor Robertson: They targeted him. Then they changed to Areola. Nuno obviously not been happy. He tried to get a goal. He tried to get Klinski in January, but Klinski wanted game time and wanted all sorts of things, which in the Spurs didn't want to let him go. He's binned Areola. He's gone to Emerson. And obviously people are now targeting him. Again, where are his weakness? well he's been good in recent weeks but in this game certainly the second goal it was a shot that he should have done more to push away to safety and Ollie Watkins was on the spot to follow up what about the corners though when they sort of tried to sort of pause in the air and anywhere near his bar yeah they definitely did target him but Mavropanos that's one bright spark I mean Mavropanos for his entire West Ham career has not looked good enough and suddenly he looks like a mountain the sussies are a big part of that yes so look I'm going to try and put you on the spot because Leeds Leeds 0-0 draw against Brentford really struggling to score from open play Leeds as well they're on 33 points in 15th Forest on 32 points in 16th Spurs 17th on 30 points West Ham 18th at 29 points who goes down?

33:16Gregor Robertson: Hurst to you first I do think Spurs you do? with the way it's going at the moment it's just like a sinking ship isn't it unless they make a change a drastic change and no one knows what that change is Yeah, no, we debated it for a while and, you know, Hodgson was the only reasonable left field choice. Alison? If pure, I know it's fun to say Spurs because it seems so surreal that a club with that stadium and that history would go down. But I actually think trying to step back from it, the team that looks less like a team is Spurs. So Spurs. The other's in trouble, even when they're in trouble. They look like a unit.

34:01They look like they know what their plan is. Spurs do not.

34:05Gregor Robertson: Danny? I would say Spurs, but I do think West Ham at some point need to get level with them and out the relegation. They had it the other week very briefly outside for like a day or something. And I feel like West Ham still haven't quite, they picked up a point, beat Fulham, picked up a good point against City. but i feel like west ham somehow need to get parity or get because spurs in the relegation zone sounds a lot more severe than the threat of relegation is obviously that you know that whole idea with below the line to above like that and west ham have pretty much been below the line virtually all the season so if they can get the head above thing but i i think i don't know if West Ham have got enough in them to kind of get those results, that's the thing and these are the interesting ones because they're not winning

35:00Gregor Robertson: and they're the easiest running but you're right, every game goes by and then towards the end I think they have Spurs and West Ham so they need to do it early they've got Burnley and Moles coming up so they've got to but if you can get closer to them okay who's your one? Yeah, I said it a couple of weeks ago, I think, Tottenham. Because, you know, I was at the Atletico game and I thought, oof, there's a bit of hope here. But they're so fragile. Can you just tell Tom O 'Neill that he's swapping to his Tuesday next year for the Foul podcast? I'm not sure how he'd feel about that. Come on, Tuesday's off, Tom.

35:39Gregor Robertson: I'm not sure how he'd feel about that. I did read as well that I think Leicester, Leicester are the team to go down with the highest wage by 190 million. Spurs, I think, is 260 million. so it would be unprecedented stuff but still a long way to go so we shall see loads more to get into after the break break means quiz time which Premier League team went 11 games without a win this season and immediately followed that with an 11 game unbeaten run find out after the break

36:23We'll see you next time.

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38:31Gregor Robertson: Welcome back to the game podcast from the times. I'm Greg Robertson alongside Gary Jacob, Paul Hurst and Alison Rudd. Before the break, I asked a quiz question and the answer is Alison Bournemouth. Bournemouth. First team since Nottingham Forest in 1970 to follow 11 games without a win with 11 games unbeaten. Courtesy of Bill Edgar, of course, of course, right. As I said at the start, at the top of the show, some huge, huge results and some under pressure managers this weekend. Shall we start with Liverpool, Alison? Let's start actually with James Geardbrandt's piece in the game today, which is really interesting.

39:08Gregor Robertson: He referenced the fact that Liverpool have been outrun in all but four of their Premier League games this season. Brighton covered 116km to Liverpool's 108km at the weekend. Obviously, last season's slot was kind of praised for dialing back the intensity, a bit more control to their play as they won the title. But as James tries to outline this piece, it's kind of starting to feel that the intensity, you know, this intensity is our identity model, feels a bit more deeply ingrained than maybe we realised at Liverpool. Well, yes, it has become part of Liverpool's identity. I think if you make the ball work for you and you're winning games, no one cares how many kilometres you cover.

39:50It's because you can actually palpably see that it's not helping Liverpool, that they haven't got the intensity. So they, lesser teams, teams with lower wage bills much further down the table are being made to look like Wolves are made to look like a really good team. Spurs, who we've just completely slaughtered on this podcast, were made to look like a team that were at least, if nothing else, keen and full of energy and full of running. Brighton looked like world beaters simply because they were prepared to go for it. I mean, Brighton had the 40-year-old, 36-year-old, 35-year-old and still running more.

40:29I mean, that is just pathetic. And these stats don't matter when you're winning, but they do matter when you're losing and you can see that it's giving the opposition a real boost, that Liverpool are sluggish and not at it. I think the midfield Liverpool is a real problem. It's self-inflicted because Liverpool had all this dosh and they chose suspend it in an area that they did not need to spend it. Liverpool needed to bolster midfield and bolster central defence and they didn't do it. And now they're looking tired. And I know people don't want to hear it, but it's true. Grief is physically exhausting.

41:10So you can say, oh, life goes on. You've got to get over it. And it's terrible that Diogo died. But actually you can think you're coping but grief has and the shock of grief has an actual physical effect on you for several years down the line and I think that's one of the reasons they're not running fast they just don't have it in him

41:30Gregor Robertson: Is the upshot now though that Arnest Lott is actually you know fighting for his job? Well I think Liverpool fans are split on it I don't think he's coming across terribly well he's always looking for excuses he's always giving excuses he'll say that earlier in the season, the excuses were the style of football wasn't to his liking of the opposition. Well, that really doesn't wash. You can't say that. Teams will do what they need to do to beat you. And if it's not unattractive, so be it. I think he pulled out injuries this time around and scheduling, but that's always been a problem for the big teams.

42:07If you're a big enough team, you're going to be in Europe and you're going to have a lot to deal with. So that's really not an excuse either. I found him quite defensive as a personality. when things haven't been going for him. And, you know, loitering on the horizon is Chabby Alonso. If I'm completely honest, and maybe it's not a good idea to be completely honest on a podcast, but I... Go for it. I'm going to go for it. If Chabby Alonso was not an option, I might be trying to argue that Slott deserves more time. But it's so seductive to me that Chabby Alonso's there because I think Liverpool need a...

42:43They do need a reset. and it's only partially Slott's fault, I think. He's now, he's got a lot on his plate and I don't think, if you look back at his CV, he's really got the resources to call upon, the experience to call upon, to deal with all the things that have gone wrong.

43:01Gregor Robertson: Well, it's precarious now. This is the thing. Aston Villa, obviously, Aston Villa's victory, sent them five points clear of Liverpool. Liverpool are one point ahead of Chelsea, got Brentford and Everton, Jason behind them. it's very precarious for Champions League football does that matter? quickly I think it probably might keep them in a job if they're in the Champions League next season but if Villa if Villa win the Europa League we have six places in the Champions League if Villa win the Europa League and finish in the top four then it could be six places is it possible for these clubs we're talking about terrible get a massive get a deal free card yes quickly Gary Danny Welbeck two goals 35 year old but unlucky not to be called up by England I think so because it's not just recently he's been playing well the whole season and it's a little bit of a surprise given that you've brought Solanke in and Calvin Lewin which maybe he wants to have a look at them you wouldn't just take Welbeck and have a look at him at the same time I think he offers something a little bit different I mean obviously Watkins has got tournament experience as well and he did well but Calvin Lewin would you say he's better than Welbeck on this season you wouldn't say that really would you so Oli Watkins another unlucky to be left out we'll talk more about international football on Thursday and upcoming friendlies for England let's go on to Everton 3 Chelsea 0 we did a lot of Everton we did a lot of Chelsea sorry on Thursday's show let's start with let's start with Everton up to 8th level and 46 points with Brentford 2 behind Chelsea 3 behind Liverpool what do you think could they could they could they get crashed the Champions League conversation or remarkable everything goes down to 8th maybe

44:42I don't think so I think you know the Europa League's probably the top they can aim for but I mean that would still be a remarkable achievement wouldn't it I just love I've not been to that stadium yet but you know it looks like a proper set up and you know Moyes has just done a incredible job there hasn't he when they came to Old Trafford earlier this season they won with 10 men it was just like it was never in doubt that they were going to win that match and I'd When I saw the result from the Chelsea game, I just wasn't surprised either. It's just they can do that to teams when they're on their game, aren't they?

45:18Gregor Robertson: Moy said this was the closest to the goodison atmosphere that he thinks it's been all season at Hill Dickinson. He's got quite a few players who've dramatically in Britain gone, has done excellent. Drewsbury Hall has been, he was very good at Arsenal last week. Endai's a good player. Beto getting a couple of goals in this game. and Beto if you go back 18 months you're never quite sure what you're getting with Beto it could be hit and miss and Moyes he's just channeled what he's got hasn't he he's just made it he's got the best out of what he's got he's got the best yeah you know that's what he did at West Ham what do you think Ali and Pickford as well and Pickford yeah another great save he keeps pulling them out of the bag now doesn't he superb if we're questioning Everton's chances here I mean this seems like a race that no one wants to win no one you know everyone above them is stuttering and stumbling even Brentford why couldn't Brentford could Brentford do it Alison?

46:09Champions League or Europe why not? I think Brentford are in a really really good chance of making Europe and maybe it would be more sensible for them to go into the Europa League first rather than the Champions League I mean it's I mean step by step but this is a crazy season isn't it and if you try and strip back it's a crazy season because some of the bigger teams are inconsistent and have various problems and the reason we're talking I think about Everton and Brentford is because they are two teams that are incredibly well managed and coached very clear systems um just just even if they don't get the points you come away you still come away from both those teams thinking I saw a consistent performance there.

47:04I know what they're about and they weren't trampled upon or embarrassed. Just wasn't their day against a team probably with a higher wage bill on the day or whatever. So I feel like in this crazy season, it would be nice if teams that are well run have found their feet and are run by, coached by managers, as we've just been saying, instead of moaning about what they haven't got, just get the best out of what they have got. You know, Igor Thiago second highest scorer in the country why shouldn't a team with the second highest scorer in the country make Europe make sense doesn't it absolutely

47:41Gregor Robertson: who are you plumbing for I think I'm going for Everton well yeah Chelsea and Liverpool are very unconvincing and as we say there's a chance it's opened up even wider everyone keeps tripping the ball themselves don't they in that everyone keeps in this season you know I always say money tells in the end and you get a club who come close not in Forest last season for example and they always fall away but this season feels even more sort of unusual because of as Alison said the inconsistencies and it might be this season even if it widens a bit further that one of these teams does kind of stumble into the Champions League they won't be stumbling that's the point they're kind of stumbling they're not

48:20the unfancied clubs who might make it are doing it because they're not stumbling they're being very grown up about it

48:28Gregor Robertson: okay Chelsea very quickly they've only fielded players aged 20 or younger for 113 consecutive games that's the longest stretch by a top flight club for 35 years Pete Russell's written in the game today that Chelsea are kind of sitting on a bit of a time bomb perhaps with their wage structure and Enzo Fernandes you know not putting out any dampening questions about his future at the weekend are we getting to the point where this is sort of existential crisis for for the Chelsea project. I would have thought it, you know, you've played his eight, nine years contract, so it's never going to work, is it?

49:04I mean, it's just, it is a ticking time bomb, isn't it? When you sign players for, I know they've, they're not doing that now, obviously they're not allowed to give that length of contract, but they were originally with Mudrick, was it? And Gary, was it? Fernandes' eight year contract? I remember, I remember talking to one of the execs at United about, Man United about recruitment, obviously not a topic in which they are subject in which they've been very good post Fergie but they said that if you get if you sign three players in a summer and two of them a hit you've that's a good strike rate you've you've done well there so by that notion if you're signing loads up if you're Chelsea saying loads of players you need two-thirds of them to be hits and for that to be successful, to have an impact on the team.

49:55But if they're not, then they're going to be playing poorly and you've got all these players on long contracts, on massive wages.

50:03Gregor Robertson: And their model is about saving prospects, so it's probably going to be a lower hit rate. What is their model? Does anyone know? No, sign as many players as you can. What is their model? And if their model is to sign young and polish up Chelsea fans, they go, hold on a second here, we've been winning trophies. all these years. They haven't got a goalkeeper, they haven't got a set in the back and they haven't got a forward and they've spent a billion pounds. I don't understand it. Sign Liam Dillap. Do you understand that? Pedro's a good signing and he's been good for them. Yeah, he's a good signing but Dillap has been less impressive.

50:35Gregor Robertson: They lack a forward, they lack a set in the back and they lack a... You look at their defence. That's what Liverpool did, didn't they? They bought Alisson. And Van Dijk. And Van Dijk. That's how they won the title. Arsenal bought a goalkeeper, a good goalkeeper. They've got a good centre back. It's very difficult to win. the problem the problem the main I think a lot of the young players Chelsea have in attacking positions look very very promising and I think they will improve and any club would be glad to be associated with them in a year 18 months time but at the back they are it's a mess you're absolutely right neither goalkeeper works and their choices for centre back are all flawed they're all inexperienced well the ones like Tosin just doesn't seem to have settled at all at Chelsea He never seems to give a convincing performance.

51:23And you need, you need, and that's the idiocy of the project, if you like, is that I think you can have young attacking talent. You can have it, but you need to balance it with a wise old head at the back.

51:40Gregor Robertson: Okay. Well, another manager under pressure is Newcastle United's Eddie Howe after a 2-1 defeat against Sunderland in the tiny weird derby. Simple question. Are we at the stage where Newcastle are going backwards? Rusty? Not moving forwards, are they? Yeah, I'm really surprised by them this season about how, I didn't think they'd struggle as much as they have done. Obviously losing his act was a huge blow. So I mean, you've got to struggle to recover from that. The recruitment, you know, the replacement of him with Volta Marder and Vissic hasn't worked out, has it so that's where that was the you know ultimate boo-boo wasn't it that's a really bad starting point for the season but i still didn't think they'd struggle as much as they have done every time i watch harvey barnes i just think what i think what a brilliant player he is he can create something out of nothing um and they've got quite a lot of the talent you know he runs quite deep in that squad they should be in the top six for me or pushing to that kind of area even though they have lost Isaac.

52:53Sometimes with managers, you think they've just run their course, haven't they? I think we're getting a little, when the clubs become a little bit tired of the manager, the manager becomes a little bit tired of the club and the fans sort of, because there's noise, isn't there, in Newcastle now that the Newcastle fans aren't happy with him. Well, we saw that at the end of the game. Yeah, I just think he might come to a conclusion this morning, where he says, I'll shake hands and move on, basically.

53:19Gregor Robertson: Then they've got one question to answer, haven't they? He's like, is Eddie the man for the reset or not? And if he's not, then you make the change, don't you? Because there's noises that at least three players may be on Tonali. There's noises about Anthony Gordon. There's noises about Liveramento. So this is going to be a summer of noise, and look how they dealt with it last summer. They waited a long time to sell Isak, didn't they? I don't think they particularly dealt with that situation very well. so they've got to decide early, right, if we're going to have a reset, is Eddie the man to do it?

53:50Gregor Robertson: And if they don't think he is, then they have to make the change. If they think he is, you've got to back him and make the changes early. But I think like you said, waiting to the end of the window wasn't really. Yeah. And it's not necessarily hindsight because history showed you that with things like the Berbatov deal many years ago to Man United and all the problems Spurs got into. Make your decision early and because if Liverpool are prepared to do that deal or that fee early, make the decision and get your ducks in line. And by the way, we all know deals don't happen over... There we go, there's a deal happening.

54:29Gregor Robertson: Right on, you're a boss. That's a boss. But we all know that deals don't happen like within the summer, do they happen? There's six months work gone into it. So clubs know one and two windows in advance what players might go or even more windows. So this could have been done at the start of the summer. Right, we're cool time with it and I think they've got to do that this summer. None of this is Eddie Howe's fault. None of this is Eddie Howe's fault but they've got to decide this summer what are they going to do and is Eddie the man for the reset or not and not let things drag. I think Eddie Howe's done a really good job.

55:03He's got a brilliant job. A brilliant job. Considering all the negatives she just outlined.

55:07Gregor Robertson: They're not because it's about him. They're about the club. there is negativity building I think he's done a brilliant job I think he's done a brilliant job what you're saying there about Tonali and Bruno Guimaraes agents clearly putting stuff out there that smacks to me of a sort of a club that hasn't got control on its dressing room and that is really that is probably not Eddie Howell's kind of fault you know when they when they get to that you know when a club's in that situation where two of the best players are clearly wanting wanting it out there that they want to leave. I mean, that really is a bad look, that isn't it, on the club.

55:44So the club are really going to get hold of that situation, haven't they? Because losing those two would be terrible for them, wouldn't they? That's a question of different, the impressions are good. Yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah, you don't want to become that club where players just jump ship. Steppinstone, yeah. Yeah. What would you do?

56:00Gregor Robertson: I mean, would you say to Eddie, here you go. I think they're really lucky to have him. Then would you back him for the reset and so? If he's got the energy for it. I think it's a reasonable question to ask how long you can keep going like this, because it's an endless cycle of he does enough with them to get them into Europe, and then they look knackered when they're in Europe, because they haven't got the resources for the juggling out of it. And so if I was him, I would be a bit, I find that very wearing, actually, and think maybe I want to go to a club where I don't have to juggle quite so much and get all this invective if we lose the time we're at Derby.

56:39Gregor Robertson: Massive win for Sunderland, courtesy of Brian Broby's 90th minute winner. Ten years since their last visit to St James' Park in the Premier League, so a huge day for Sunderland. Finally, Alison, you were at Bournemouth versus Manchester United on Friday night at the Vitality. This was a game that kind of swung on some pretty big refereeing decisions. How did you see them? Well, I'm still to beat the game and I almost want to be there because it will be the ultimate VAR moment. when there's a penalty decision not given on the pitch, but the team who get away with it go on the break and score, which is what happened for Bournemouth.

57:20Gregor Robertson: This is Trufair's push on Ahmed the album. Yes, but the referee does let's play go on. And from that moment, Bournemouth score, there isn't a break in play to go to VAR. But of course, we all know if VAR was to have decided that that should have been a free kick and therefore a penalty. the goal would not stand. I mean, can you imagine what would happen? You've scored and your goal isn't disallowed because of an offside or an infringement in the build-up to play. It's something that happened a long time ago in the other penalty area. I've yet to see that happen. And I wonder if maybe they're scared of that happening because it would be seismic.

58:00It would be seismic to say, you've scored a perfectly legitimate goal, but we didn't pull it back for the foul in the box earlier.

58:07Gregor Robertson: I'm trying to think I feel that might have happened to Tottenham once anyway we'll think about it I haven't been there for it and I I want to know what that feels like if it happens I mean yeah we're going down a wormhole here aren't we what do you think about the decisions though in isolation because a big part of this was that they were very similar there was a they were similar but not similar enough Harry Maguire's do you think Harry Maguire's was the right decision yeah I think Harry Maguire's was the right decision rugby tackle it was it was exactly what it was it was a rugby tackle I don't know how they can complain about that.

58:36And it was a bit, the foul on Ahmed was a little bit more subtle. So there was some difference. There was some difference. I don't know what was going through his head. Does he, because immediately when the referee shows him red card, he's there pointing, oh, you know, he didn't give that one at the other end. It's like, well, just because he didn't give that one doesn't mean he gives you a license to push your player over like he's going for the try line. It's just, it's just,

59:01Gregor Robertson: you know, you're making a formal complaint. Yeah. to PGM or what does that actually mean we've had another once you dress up in a dinner suit and then write send it by a so you have a butler turns up with a player making a formal complaint makes it even more notwithstanding all of that though I remain impressed with knighted under Carrick and I would give him the job full time firsty well yeah well we've got you on as well I mean what's your view on the Michael Carrick situation because obviously there's echoes of the past with Solskjaer, but this is also a new period in the club's history. What do you think the right decision is?

59:44The Solskjaer thing is a complete red herring, really, isn't it? If you're, you know, just because he was, you know, they did that with Oli before and it didn't work out, it won't work out with Carrick. And I also question the idea that it didn't work out with Solskjaer because some of the best football, you know, post Fergie was under Solskjaer but you know they do want to be winning things that's their you know that's what they want to be doing winning Premier Leagues again and I yeah I think they'll end up giving it to him I personally would it has he's steady the shape they're winning matches they're not blowing teams away but you know when do we see the whole you know first section of the show and how you know boring that first half was you know Arsenal against Arsenal Man City you don't really see teams blowing other teams away that much and I just think he's you know who else are you going to get now?

1:00:40You're not really going to get an elite level manager you're not going to get Luis Amike out of Paris Saint-Germain who's probably on an absolute fortune That's the rumour though there is a rumour that that could happen You started You're starting now I mean they should have gone for him the first time And when they gave it to Ten Hag, he wanted it then. But he said, oh, well, you've got to wait until after the World Cup, which is obviously in November at that time. And it was ludicrous not to even consider him for that because he's such a good manager. But I just don't think United have that kind of pull now, do they?

1:01:19I just think they do have pull. Because imagine if you were the person to bring them back to their glory. that's so people are falling into that trap isn't it they'll continue to be so yeah money is a big factor as well you can't see if you're going to Lewis Enrique this summer and he says right do you all go Dalots you're right back and he'll be like oh right so we need a new right back you know and who's your left back oh well Luke Shaw played brilliant this season but he can't play two games a week whenever he has played two years but he's not looked good so we'll have to sign a new let back by the way you know we're going to get rid of Casemiro's going fair enough so we need at least Ugarte who you got rid of from Paris Saint-Germain is just can't pass so we'll have to get rid of him as well there are a lot of changes that have to be made in that squad if you are to make it a competitive team in Champions League and sorry in the Premier League and Champions League obviously they're going to play more matches next season you know it would be great if he has got that desire to do that Lewis and Rican and kind of get buy into the project then fair enough but it's such a massive step down for me now to go from PSG Champions League winners maybe two years in a row to it's boring isn't it the rest of the time if you're not the Champions League it's boring in France Premier League's fun

1:02:54Gregor Robertson: sounds like it's Michael's it's boring isn't it it's boring sounds like it's Michael Carrick's job to lose United's put United 7 points clear of Chelsea in 6th so Champions League football looks well assured at least ok that was a jam packed show guys we'll turn our focus to international football and England's forthcoming friendlies on Thursday to see you then

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