Your England XI if the World Cup was tomorrow?

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1:00Matt Lawton: would disagree with. It's not easy being Thomas Tuchel, is it? But on today's show, we thought we'd give it a go by picking our World Cup XI if the tournament started right now. We'll also discuss Andrea Onana's departure from Manchester United, Daniel Levy's Tottenham exit, hear worries about doping in football and catch up on the opening weekend in the WSL. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today in the second half of the show, we'll hear from our chief sports correspondent, Matt Lawton. And with me in the studio for the full thing, we've got the football reporter, Kit Shepard, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here too.

1:32Matt Lawton: Kit, welcome. So nice to have you in the studio, not talking to you from a hotel room in Switzerland, as we did during the summer. I know, it's a change. I have to say this is a very nice new studio. I've been told it's brand new. Brand new, just for you. Just for you. Now that you're a European Championship winning reporter. Yeah, we've got you in. You're a journalist who's actually seen an England team lift a major trophy. So Thomas Tuchel needs all the help he can get. Gregor, are you doing well? I'm good. I'm good, yeah. excited to talk about Elliot Anderson the one bright spark let's get straight on to him let's get straight on to him it was the bright spark the only bright spark wasn't it perhaps yeah

2:04The Game Hosts: yeah I mean big caveat they were playing Andorra but he does look like he belongs and you know not just on that stage but alongside those players yeah like I think a lot of Nottingham Forest fans will have been I've been saying that for a long long time and it's good that the rest of the country agrees

2:25Matt Lawton: Is it a very rare case of an actually very simple solution to a problem that has been suggested for such a long time you know Gareth Southgate playing Trent Alexander-Arnold in there talking about inverting full backs and things and we dropped through Bellingham deeper and actually he's been sat there for the last season doing pretty good and he's going to come in and he's probably start the World Cup am I being too simplistic there?

2:44The Game Hosts: Yeah well I suppose his emergence is since the start of last season he didn't play enough at Newcastle to be considered so it's really only since the Euros and it takes a bit of time for him to establish that reputation in the Premier League and being so consistent and reliable and like an all-rounder and then there's, as I wrote about, the kind of question of balance in midfield as well if you've not got an out-and-out defensive-minded holding midfielder who are you playing alongside, Declan Rice, that you can get a good sense of balance and I think he's the best option that Tuchel has so it'd be fascinating to see if he plays against Serbia on Tuesday night and obviously a more difficult opponent it's also interesting Martin raised the point in the call this morning that if John Stones was fit he might not have done this experiment

3:32Matt Lawton: Thomas Tuchel said John Stones was being considered as playing a number six for England which I mean is mental to me isn't it like John Stones is the one solid rock in this defence Mark Gay obviously looking excellent in the last 18 months he obviously really likes Dan Byrne too but Jesus Christ if we're going to play Dan Byrne at centre-back so that we can play John Stones in midfield. The plot has been lost already, hasn't it? I mean, Kit, obviously you went from a summer where the build-up to England women's Euros defence was chaos and players being dropped and everything like that and then they promptly go and win the trophy in a very ruthless fashion.

4:04Matt Lawton: Do you have any sympathy with Thomas Tuchel in these scenarios? As Gregor said, it's Andorra. You can't learn too much, but it's not the most brilliant start for him as England manager, is it? No, it's not. and you do have to caveat it with, first of all, they've still won all four games, all four qualifiers and it's Andorra and they're not going to play a team like that in the World Cup. But I think you can say that whoever the opposition has been so far, they have really struggled to break down these kind of mid or low blocks, whether that was in the games at Wembley where they started or whether it was in that forgettable 1-0 win against Andorra.

4:44Matt Lawton: So yeah, you do have a bit of simphing And again, if you want to make the comparison with the women's team, there is evidence there of it all coming together very quickly and very gloriously. But at the moment, it seems like England just don't have that kind of verve and spark that you do need, I suppose, whoever you're playing. Yeah, I mean, well, as I say, I intro'd it at the start of the show. Let's get straight into it then, because Martin Samuel, as Gregor, you talked about there on the Times website saying, Tuchel is selecting on form that is seven years out of date. Paul Joyce writing in the Times with a headline on his piece Joyless England can't afford a repeat on Serbia on Tuesday night So I just thought, why not?

5:22Matt Lawton: The World Cup starts tomorrow Let's all be Thomas Tuchel Let's pick our teams Do you want me to go first, Greg, or do you want to take the lead? You're the former footballer, do you want to take the lead? Go on then Go on then, let's hear it Dean Henderson No, it's a joke It's a joke I knew you wouldn't do that next day

5:36The Game Hosts: It's Pickford on date Your England team to start the World Cup, go Pickford Pickford and go Rhys James, right back John Stones Mark Gay second half Jed Spence Spence interesting Declan Rice Elliot Anderson midfield Saka on the right Bellingham number 10 Anthony Gordon on the left Harry Kane up front

5:58Matt Lawton: Harry Kane very interesting Kit

6:00The Game Hosts: do you want to go?

6:01Matt Lawton: this is going to be very disappointing we've picked 10 of the 11 it's a good thing you're on side so where's you on different? I've got Lewis Skelly the left back instead of Jed Spence I always said Kev was a really smart guy yeah honestly need less of this right anyway well here's mine complete nonsense David Seaman in goal no I'm joking Pickford in goal Trent at right back Stones Gaye Lewis Skelly Anderson Rice Saka Palmer Morgan Rogers Kane okay no Jude Bellingham it's funny you said that both men Palmer and Rogers in the same team who do the same celebration and they can do it at the same time as England win the trophy but I'm being serious I'm not trying to it's funny you say that

6:43The Game Hosts: and you leave Bellingham out he's the person I sort of hovered about and kind of questioned the most and you love him I do I love it it was the kind of I was just thinking back to the clutch moments to the overhead kick and the Euros to like just standing there saying who else like it's true he just finds big moments in the biggest games on the biggest stage so like I feel it would be ridiculous to leave him out so you could also drop him deep and it would be a question of who the opposition is whether it's a team to break down as we're saying it's been you know often the case you could possibly play him deeper and Cole Palmer I have underneath my team with lots of question marks beside him he's the one person like people talk about Foden no I'd like to get Ezzie in an England team but I think Anthony Gordon as well I spent all of the Euros banging on about having an out and out left winger who's like direct and has pace and you know some people will say that could be Rashford too but he's not shown it yet and I think Gordon is reliable really industrious and he has taken opportunities when they've been presented to him as well so yeah some people question that and Spence and I think Spence is like one of the best defenders in England

7:57Matt Lawton: What as a full back? As in one on one?

7:59The Game Hosts: Yeah I mean you saw him in the Super Cup is that what it's called? Super Cup game giving Paris Saint-Germain wingers forwards saying go on beat me down the line and he turns on the afterburners and he can join in going forward too I think when you look at the make up of that defence there's no longer the big stature players John Stones is the only guy like Gahey has become in that and he played in the last tournament Rhys James hasn't really played big tournament football and there's always a question mark about his fitness but you saw his deliveries in that game against Andorra just at the weekend like he's you forget he's almost on a par with Trent with the kind of wand of a right foot that cross across not just the one for the goal the one in the first half that he whipped across like just such pace with the inside of his foot but he's slightly more reliable defensively but also I just think having someone like Lewis Gelley is a real talent but I think Jed Spence is a better defender so looking at the balance of the back four that's why I went for Spence

9:02Matt Lawton: I thought I was going to get dogs abuse for Liam Bellingham out but I think there is a part of England's fans as well conscience that is like yes he can both things can be true Gregor he can be box office he can be the saviour he is absolutely a world talent but there's part of me that was just picking this team going I think they'd be better with Palmer in there as a number 10 the other thing I'd say about Cole Palmer he's never played there for England he's never had that chance all the others have had the chance I mean even thinking about this conversation what a fall from grace Phil Foden is having by the way I was going right Saka, Palmer Morgan Rodgers oh I'd like to get SA in there oh Anthony Gordon's direct Bellingham obviously I've gone six players before I've even listed Phil Foden We're at a stage where Phil Foden might not go to the World Cup Crazy?

9:45Matt Lawton: Too crazy? It's not impossible

9:47The Game Hosts: It's not impossible but I think he will go I think over the course of this season we'll see Phil Foden emerge again but you're right another one for me was even Saka I'd question Palmer could play ahead of Saka that seems

10:03Matt Lawton: But I think the thing for me with picking Saka is that he's almost like the most consistent creative force in England's team under Gareth Southgate. There was all these debates about, oh, should we play Palmer? Should we drop Saka? Saka was always the one that the ball went to all the time. Go on, Bakayo, do something with it. Please, God, do something with it. And he was always the one who delivered, actually. So that was why I was like, no, it's got to be Saka. And then Morgan Rodgers for me, that running ability, that ability to take the ball, pace, to make something happen in the 70th minute.

10:33Matt Lawton: I don't think he's as good as Jude Bellingham, but I think he's got in his locker, for the cliche, that ability to just make something happen.

10:41The Game Hosts: It does. Gibbs White does too. When Gibbs White comes on, he's like someone who makes an impact. He adds energy. He's an injection of energy and intent. And that's valuable. And it might be something from the bench, but there's so many. Johnny said it when we spoke on Thursday, having those big guns unavailable, it'll be interesting to see whether this is a better England performance I don't think any of those players we're speaking about Maduecki was good Maduecki is purposeful and direct as well so he's someone as well you would definitely consider but I don't think Ezi or Rashford really grasped the opportunity so when the big guns are available he'll probably turn back to them

11:22Matt Lawton: Do we lack any left footedness with Jed Spencer left back? It's a good point because I spent the summer talking about Kieran Trippi

11:30The Game Hosts: but there was no one outside him that's the point like he never he never had a left winger in front of him so if Jed Spence does have him the fact that he's not left footed matters less

11:40Matt Lawton: Lewis Hall if he's fit would that be the

11:43The Game Hosts: Lewis Skelly Lewis Skelly yeah

11:45Matt Lawton: and the left yeah

11:47The Game Hosts: Lewis Skelly could Lewis Skelly would be most people's pick he probably will play but as I say I just think you know are England really going to play with an inverted fullback in World Cup tournament football like with very little time in the training ground to drill that kind of formation and system I think it's brave I'm not sure Kit who were you

12:08Matt Lawton: sweating on when you were picking your team left back's always feels like for generations the position of kind of angst for England and I think kind of like Saka I think Saka's kind of got to the stage where people just put him in a team and don't even think about it are we still there with Harry Kane as well that's a good point I think we're just we're tying ourselves in knots if you bring the Harry Kane Harry Kane has one more tournament let's just not argue about it who are you picking instead? good question maybe not Olly Watkins now because that's the thing like a year ago you might have gone with Olly Watkins you know Ivan Tony's disappeared off the radar but your question

12:44The Game Hosts: and you know your question this morning is if the World Cup's tomorrow who are you picking so you have to go in current form and as we're saying Olly Watkins hasn't really been ripping up recently the season's just started but it all does and that's why Martin Scolham is like you know it makes sense it always comes down to form like we can I've said all along the number of options England have particularly in forward areas is just ridiculous it comes down to form and balance and you know at the moment with those three big players out injured it was an opportunity and I don't really think anyone other than Madu Eki took it Is there any part where

13:20Matt Lawton: like it doesn't come down to form though because we've seen with England teams in the Southgate era like Harry Maguire's probably the best example being chastised and ridiculed time and time again for his performance of Man United, put him next to stones certainly up until the Qatar World Cup and that was a great part of it.

13:37The Game Hosts: But that's because there's a big hole in the team there like I don't think that's the case up front in forward area so it's a perfectly valid point and it's true about Harry Maguire but I think unless like they were playing Harry Maguire because they had to, there was no one else really

13:53Matt Lawton: And also there was Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank spoken in the last week or so about what a massive miss he was at the Euros in the dressing room Harry Maguire in terms of his leadership and things stepping forward in clutch moments all that kind of thing

14:05The Game Hosts: yeah and presence you know you look at the back four with Harry Maguire in it and you know him and John Stones have played a lot of tournament football and they're big and experienced like defenders whatever you know whatever back four England play you do need to consider those things like I think experience like presence and sort of reliability

14:27Matt Lawton: that's we're talking about Martin Samuel and all of our colleagues have said you know Thomas Tuchel brought in short deal go and win the World Cup and this whole idea was that he was supposed to just build on what was there before which was this solid team squad with a winning mentality he just couldn't quite get over the line and I feel like we've gone a couple of months in and unpicked everything and then we're now at a stage where what we know with a centre-back pairing the striker the keeper and maybe Elliot Anderson has made a case for being sure don't know anyone else in the team we've just debated for about 5-10 minutes here I'm sure listeners are going no no no I'd get him in oh my god Tom you're an idiot you've got to play Jude Bellingham that's not a great place to be is it what are we nine months till the start of the World Cup not a clue what like five six places are in the team

15:11The Game Hosts: yeah but some of them are because there's so many options it's a fair point it feels like England let's be honest it feels like they've gone backwards you know despite stinking the place out in the Euros they got to the final but it feels like since Gareth Southgate left they have they have gone backwards but that's part of that so glad you said it I didn't need to say it part of that's to do with the expectation part of that's to do with the things that Johnny spoke about on Thursday about like the standard the quality of the opponent how do you really impress or wow or have like you know performances fizzing with energy when you're playing teams like Andorra every week so you know that's why Tuesday Tuesday's game against Serbia is important like it's been built up as if this is like you know you're playing against Spain or France it's not the case but it's your only competitive fixture of any sort of standard or opposition of any standing between now and the World Cup.

16:04The Game Hosts: So it needs a good performance. Yeah.

16:07Matt Lawton: I mean, there's a lot more international games to come. There's another international break in October with a friendly against Wales before another qualifier against Latvia. Then the home game against Serbia in November followed by a trip to Albania. So there's a lot more games to come for Thomas Tuchel. But Kit, what do you think about, Again, not necessarily just always linking it back to the women's success and things, but as I mentioned already, Serena Vigman went through loads of changes before this tournament, got it right at the time.

16:33The Game Hosts: And started badly.

16:34Matt Lawton: And started badly. Started badly. And there is an element at tournament football where it's just a bit like what we talked about of Bellingham, that he's just going to show up in those moments where it really matters. Not only did England not have a calm build-up to the women's Euros this summer, they didn't even play that well at the Euros, but I think Chloe Kelly stepped up and scored the penalties because she was ready for the pressure. Missed one and scored on the rebound if you want to be pedantic. Hannah Hampton, having not really had the chance to prove before that she could perform under pressure, was able to.

17:08Matt Lawton: So I think with selection as well for major tournaments as well as trying to work out the combinations and the tactics there's also a little bit of working out who's got the bottle, who's not going to shrink under the pressure because you're not going to be able to replicate pressure against Andorra or even against the Serbia game. But that's part of my problem. I've managed to go over 15 minutes without mentioning Sir Gareth Southgate, but thankfully Greg has put in it already. We can all just admit it, we miss him. Gareth, we're really sorry. Well, I'm not because I believe in you all along.

17:39Matt Lawton: It's all these other chumps who thought you weren't an absolute genius at the time. But that's partly my problem, Kit, is that we're heading back to this point where you just go, oh, you pick the clutch players, you pick the superstars. they'll get you over the line Thomas Tuchel was brought in to like tactify this England team he was brought in to like tactify us? does that work? I don't know I've thrown it in there we can work it out by the end of the show but he was brought in for these moments where oh we just can't get over the line against Italy and Spain in these finals we get out thought we've got no plan B let's get in a top coach like Thomas Tuchel and after a couple of months he's going right let's get the big lads in let's do long throws and then we were sat in here going oh we'll just play the clutch players and they'll get us through in big moments He was supposed to be the one with plan B and plan C and plan D who would work it out, in-game solutions, good substitutions.

18:25Matt Lawton: And he looks like he hasn't got a bloody clue. And he's talking about, oh, you know, we'll get there in the end. We'll go back to basics. It's like, we should never have let Southgate go in the first place. It's absolute nonsense, isn't it? I mean, have I lost the plot already? This is what England does to you. This is what England does to you. Yeah, you have. It was time for him to go. Head in hands, you have.

18:43The Game Hosts: It was time for him to go for his sake as much as anything. no but it's

18:47Matt Lawton: but my point but do you not agree with my point about that's what Tuchel was brought into and we're sat here going just pick the big guy pick the stars and you know

18:55The Game Hosts: but it comes back to the same thing about the opposition like who's he who's he played yet you know yeah the Senegal game was awful but it was like after the season changing the team up it's not it's not it was never going to be an easy run up for him it's like part of it is a walk in the park and then the other part of it is that they're not really being tested so yeah you want forgetting all that you still want to have seen more you want to see more than 11 shots than England landed against Andorra scored from two crosses, one of them was an own goal but then there is a there's a kind of other side to this, it's been such a shift in terms of like the narrative he's trying to, you know, the way he's trying to direct the narrative, he's like Gary Southgate was like warm and embracing he's been like the complete opposite he says about Rashford, yeah I agree he's not delivering the wild performances that we hope for in an England jersey he just says it as it is and he's also kind of trying to create an English identity but the English identity is like things that are the basics he's talking about like being direct like long throws, crosses into the box it's not really probably what the FA were hoping for when they hired someone to as you say in your words, tactify the team

20:11Matt Lawton: maybe we should have given him an interview maybe I don't know asked him what he was planning to do it might sound nice though hearing a German guy come in and say

20:19The Game Hosts: you know I want to create the English identity the Premier League on the national stage it's not that easy

20:27Matt Lawton: it's impossible it's deluded it's absolute nonsense anyway we'll leave it there for now on England because I'm sure we'll come back to it on Thursday listeners I'm sure you have views on my nonsense being spouted over the last 15 minutes and the more considered views of Kit and Gregor that do get in touch with me with your starting 11s for the World Cup Tom.Clark at the times.co.uk another matter separately away from the internationals Gregor we thought the transfer window was over we thought all the deals had been done but it looks like Andre Onana is leaving Manchester United on loan to Turkish side Travzon Sport their window still open for a couple of days what do we make of this I mean Manchester United fans I know a lot of you get in touch sometimes saying you know it's too critical blah blah this is an absolute stinker isn't it the Andre Onana saga the story of his career at Manchester United the pursuit of him getting rid of David De Gea it's a shocker isn't it?

21:17Matt Lawton: at least we can all agree on this one surely if we don't agree on my views on the England manager yeah the first part of the career if I wouldn't go be too revisionist on David De Gea David De Gea? he's a brilliant shortstopper four time United players player of the season in that golden era of Man United that he was there for back to Ederson

21:36The Game Hosts: the conversation about Ederson David De Gea left because his failure at the start of the season when De Nadeau got the job to play it from the back and they've forgotten that you do still need

21:45Matt Lawton: to save the shots that come at you I only made his fair share of Clang as though De Gea David De Gea who by the way then joins Fiorentina, do you know who was the goalkeeper in the Serie A team of the season last season Kit? David De Bloody Gea, that's who I was going to try and think of another one I could see you being it is a shocker isn't it Gregor, the Manchester United are now going into the season with a new signing from Belgium who knows whether he's going to be any good and Altai Bayendere who in my mind is one of the best one of the worst, sorry second choice keepers in any team in the Premier League

22:19The Game Hosts: it's certainly a risk, yeah 23 year old he might be great he might be great I hope he is

22:24Matt Lawton: but it's a lot of pressure on him

22:26The Game Hosts: yeah, and like you know Amaran wasn't a mug like he came from an Inter Milan team who he performed brilliantly for and went deep in the Champions League Oh Nani you mean Sorry you said Sorry And then I was reading A piece where Van de Sar was talking About him His time at Ajax As well And kind of He was so excited About him So excited about him Coming to the Premier League He thought so highly of him Like Van de Sar Knows his stuff as well So Like there is an aspect Of this about Just the word I always Reach for is the vortex That is there At Old Trafford Like players Of talent Get sucked into it You know he came And then there's the whole conversation again about muddled thinking at Manchester United and you know Ten Hag looked like he was starting to want to he signed a goalkeeper to play out from the back and then he realised he didn't have any defenders to pass to when you're playing out from the back so even his kind of remit changed when he when he joined Manchester United so you know a lot of muddled thinking at that football club for a long time and that ultimately you know players can suffer from that as well so I'm not I hope that O 'Neill goes on and does well somewhere else but when Manchester United have paid the best part of£50 million for a goalkeeper and they're shipping him out a couple of years later

23:42Matt Lawton: it isn't a good look. So Trav's on spore, on loan. I mean it's a terrible look. It's worse than a bad look. But listen guys, I struggle with the modern world. 2025's a scary place. I just want to party like it's 2018 all over again. David De Gea in golf, Manchester United and Gareth Southgate as manager for England. They were better times, simpler times. Anyway, there's loads more still to come on this episode of The Game podcast but we're going to take a little break. Greg, I'm going to test you again on Bill Edgar's quiz as we enjoyed it so much. on Thursday. It's his quiz that you can take part in on the Times website now.

24:10Matt Lawton: All about players and which nation they represented. Saido Berahino played for West Brom and Stoke but made 133 appearances for which country? I'm not going to give you any of the hints just yet. I'm going to see if you can get it in the break. Listeners, come back and see if they can get it right.

24:36Matt Lawton: Do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one, for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget, and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

25:32Matt Lawton: Very good. Listen, he did need the four options before he got the answer. I will just say that. Let's get cracking because we've got loads more to discuss on the show. And we're joined now by The Times' chief sports correspondent, Matt Lawton, to discuss two big stories of the past week. Matt, hello. Hi, Tom. Thanks very much for taking the time to join us. Let's talk first about a huge breaking story that happened late on Thursday night. Daniel Levy departing from Tottenham. this was one of those rare stories it kind of shows the magnitude of the move and the kind of man's reputation in football that we were all on the Times editing floor having a little debrief one of my editing colleagues was just about to leave they're handing over and someone suddenly went behind me Daniel Levy's left Tottenham oh my god that's absolutely massive and I thought what a statement of the bloke himself and his position within football that we were all so shocked yeah look he's as we know he was the longest serving chairman of any Premier League football club and had established himself, you know, he had a reputation as a very uncompromising, tough sort of deal maker.

26:37Matt Lawton: A lot of clubs really didn't like trying to deal with him. He was so sort of, you know, Simon Jordan did a column, didn't he, in the Sunday Times where he just talked about the sort of attention to detail and just the way he would drive, try and drive the best deal for his club. So he had that reputation. He was a very hard man to get even remotely close to as a journalist. Even when my days as being a chief football correspondent, I don't know, I've ever had a conversation with him. He didn't really engage with the media. He used Donna Cullen, his kind of comms person, to do that on his behalf.

27:15Matt Lawton: But while there are, and I do sympathise with the frustrations that Tottenham fans have had over the years with the lack of success on the pitch, So many managerial changes and great players that they sign, they're leaving at the right price. Perhaps wasn't always a huge fight to keep these top players and instead go for the profit. He does leave the club in very good financial health. They have got the best training ground, certainly in the London area. it is the one as Martin Samuel referenced the other day it's the one that England choose to use before they play games at Wembley and the stadium is magnificent isn't it and the way he's done that is impressive they are an extremely well run football club but the Lewis family and it did come as a shock nobody saw it coming it's one of those rare stories that just drops out of the ether that nobody has anticipated.

28:21Matt Lawton: And he himself, that was one of your stories in the days after, wasn't it? That he only found out about his own exit on the morning of Thursday, which is, again, is quite a significant part of this narrative, isn't it? That you only find out. Yeah, I do wonder if he kind of saw it coming a little bit because there had been the changes. They brought in the new chief executive and perhaps he did feel like his power was slightly being eroded and perhaps he'd felt that way since Joe Lewis handed control to his family, to his children in particular, Vivian and Charlie. So you wonder if he could kind of see the writing on the wall because he did do that overlap appearance with Gary Neville, which again is such a rare sort of media appearance for him.

29:15Matt Lawton: And it looked like he might have been trying to get ahead of the story a little bit. But no, I don't think he, everything we were told on Thursday night from people close to the Lewis family was that no, this was, this came very much as a shock. You know, all happened in the space of a few hours. and as we reported on Saturday morning, his wife quit on the spot as well. She worked as his assistant and had this role in the director's box on match day. So no, as a family, I don't believe he saw it coming. The whole thing is very complex. His son works for the investment arm of the Lewis business empire and continues to do so.

30:05Matt Lawton: his wife's brother is still the player liaison officer and I think it caught them all off guard. And then into today then on the website this morning we've got a headline on a piece by you Spurs reject takeover interest from Amanda Stavely and Chinese groups to stand first then just to give listeners a bit more detail clubs say they were forced to clarify the position after media speculation that old brilliant get out phrase there media speculation following Daniel Levy's exit as chairman insists they have no intention of entertaining offers. Do we feel like this is then the start of a second chapter to this story, Matt, or how do you see this playing out?

30:42Matt Lawton: Amanda Staveley, the former Newcastle director, was due to make a statement today saying that she was not going to be submitting a bid for Tottenham, because there's been a lot of rumours since she left Newcastle that she might be trying to put a consortium together to make a bid for Spurs, because the obvious reason being that there were lots of rumours really about whether the Lewis family had an appetite to stick around. Joe Lewis is now 88. Were the family really that interested in running a Premier League football club? And so on. So there's been whispers for ages about Stavely. And then that's followed up by a briefing from the people close to the Lewis family that this is, yeah, nothing to see here.

31:33Matt Lawton: she's not making a bid, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then at midnight, another message dropped in my WhatsApp inbox saying that Tottenham have now had to make a statement. And the reason that Staveney was making a statement and the reason Tottenham were making a statement, and I'm not going to try and explain them because I don't really understand them myself, but there are certain rules that apply around UK takeovers, takeovers in the UK. Right. So Tottenham had to make a statement saying at midnight last night that two groups, a Stablies group, PCP and this Chinese consortium, had, since Levy left on Thursday, made kind of preliminary inquiries about the situation at Spurs.

32:21Matt Lawton: Hadn't made an offer and they were rejected. And actually the messaging from the Lewis camp since Thursday has been this club is not for sale because the moment that story dropped on Thursday. And I'm sure it's the same for a lot of journalists. I had lots of people contacting me saying this person's buying it and that person's buying it and so on. And Stavely has indeed now issued this statement today saying that they are not bidding. And the view of the Lewis camp last night and indeed this morning, and I did speak to someone this morning, is that this hopefully puts that to bed. They don't want to sell.

33:00Matt Lawton: They're in it for the long haul they they've they've created this new leadership structure levy is gone and they're now hoping to prove with the new leadership team that they can actually transfer that financial success and that that good management of the football club into success on the football pitch we have to take them at their word at the moment and and believe that that you know there is that there is nothing happening there absolutely fascinating we'll see what happens with tottenham And Matt, before you go, I wanted to talk about another big story from last week. This was one of your very own, an investigation on the Times website, a headline of which was football's doping problem, a testing system not fit for purpose.

33:40Matt Lawton: Fresh doubts raised over anti-doping efforts with players not required to provide whereabouts on days off or on holiday, while the majority of out-of-competition tests are conducted at training. That's the very simplified headline version of what is a very complex story. Give the listeners a sense of what you discovered in writing this story and what you think some of these problems are? Yeah, look, this was, as you know, I write a lot about doping, in particular in Olympic sports and in things like cycling and have done for years. And obviously now a lot of people in that sphere and for some time, you know, prominent people in that world have been saying to me, when are you going to look at football?

34:21Matt Lawton: When are you going to look at the systems that are in place there? They're not even trying. So I did actually take the opportunity this summer because it's not a world cup or olympics or european championship summer i thought you know what i'm going to look at the football situation and and there's covered a lot of things that i didn't even realize and and i was alarmed by the fact that despite the fact that football certainly in europe is the biggest sport the stakes are highest the rewards are greatest and yet the commitment to anti-doping is frankly pathetic. Just Matt, but just before you go on, just to give people a sense of what you think should be the kind of standard bearer for testing win football, because obviously I touched on it there in reading that kind of stand first out, but what should be happening?

35:13Matt Lawton: Because you're saying here about it, what you found was shocking, but what do you think should be happening? What should a footballer kind of expect to be dealing with on a testing level? Yeah, well, the fact of the matter is Josh Kerr, the British Olympic silver medalist, world champion, he has to provide details of where he's at every day. He has to provide an hour of a slot and give his whereabouts every day. He owns a fraction of what Premier League footballers make. Why aren't Premier League footballers required to do the same thing? because the fact is, as I say, football is, and please don't anyone tell me, and I know Gregor played professionally, but please don't tell me that it's a skill game and doping is less advantageous in a sport like football.

36:07Matt Lawton: That's just not true, and certainly not true anymore when the physical requirements of playing football at the very highest level, with the way that the game is played these days, with the way that everyone's supposed to track back and press and all this kind of stuff. These guys, and I've seen the changes in footballer physiques and fitness levels in the last 30 years. They are phenomenal athletes. We used to laugh when we watched Superstars in the 70s that the footballers were never very good at it. I think they'd be brilliant at it now. I think they are among the greatest athletes on the planet, top-level footballers.

36:45Matt Lawton: so the fact of the matter is it would be if a footballer did want to dope as the current system exists it would be incredibly easy to cheat right with the right expertise it would be so easy because there are massive gaps when they do not need to provide any information as to where they are for you know for example an entire summer holiday uh if you uh if your club is not training for a couple of days. A lot of these most effective drugs, the window of detection is 24, 48 hours. So if you've got a couple of days off training, bingo, if you want to go and do some growth hormone or some testosterone because you're seven months into the season, you're coming up to your Champions League semifinal, you're fighting for the Premier League title, and you're a bit knackered, and you're carrying a couple of injuries.

37:35Matt Lawton: This is where performance analysis drugs can be massively effective. and I just think the system right now is hugely open to abuse. Now, the fact of the matter is, in the UK at the moment, and we've written about this, football, rugby and cricket runs its own doping programmes. It employs UCAD to do the testing, but it's in charge of its own doping programmes. To be compliant with the next WADA code, I think they will have to hand that control back to UCAD. And the point of writing the piece is at that point, if not before, things need to change. Premier League footballers and indeed professional footballers need to be held to the same standards as other elite sports stars in this country.

38:20Matt Lawton: It's a joke that right now there is such a sort of lax system. It's just not right. And did you get the sense in writing this story? Because obviously when we do these kind of big stories, you have to present your information to all the various governing bodies and things, get responses and stuff. did you get any response that made you feel like things would change off the back of this story? No, because the fact of the matter is it took a couple of months sending freedom of information requests, asking questions. They knew exactly, between the FA and UKAD, they knew exactly what I was talking about.

38:54Matt Lawton: They knew exactly what I was looking at. And despite the fact that I know all of them very well, at no point did anyone think, come on, let's sit Matt down and let's explain what we do do and the efforts we do make. And they didn't. And the reason they didn't is because they knew they'd lose that argument. They knew that there are massive holes in the system. And my key point, and even then, the FA issued me that statement at the end of last week saying that they think football, doping in football is rare. My point is that they can't possibly know. It's impossible to know if it's rare because they're not actually, they're not actually monitoring it properly Matt I think the

39:37The Game Hosts: quote from Gordon Taylor jumped out to me as well because actually although that was maybe 20 years ago that quote was from 2009 as former head of the PFA just essentially saying this is not a problem in football and actually reading that I think probably that attitude has not changed in that time so you're right you laid it out at the start there is no reason why given the rewards on offer and the athleticism required to be a footballer, there's no reason why some footballers would not turn to performance-enancing drugs. But the attitude within football is that this doesn't happen. Yeah.

40:20Matt Lawton: And the thing is, look, it all comes down to cost. The reason they can't do it, the reason UKAD aren't doing it is because it's expensive, right? And it's not just about what they would perceive to be intrusion and being a pain in the backside if, you know, Premier League footballer has to provide their whereabouts every day. Because at the moment, it's all done for them. The clubs, all the clubs are required to do is provide the FA with details of what days they're training, right? So it would be, you know, a huge amount of admin involved and a huge amount of cost. And as I said in the piece, the FA pay UCAD 1.5 million pounds a year to do their testing.

41:02Matt Lawton: This is a sport, as we reported last week, that spent£3 billion on players in the last transfer window. They're not trying. It's embarrassing that they spend£1.5 million on drug testing. Players should be required to provide their whereabouts every day because they are professional sports stars and they have their hours of training, it takes three minutes on an app on your phone to update your whereabouts, to provide a daily slot. And it can be six till seven in the morning at your house every day. And then it can be the hotel that you're at for your holiday or whatever. It's not difficult. The Keeley Hodgkinsons, the Josh Kerr's, the Gerard Thomas's do it every day of their lives.

41:57Matt Lawton: And I don't see why footballers are somehow protected by this when I think the sport is as ripe for doping as any other. Yeah, really. Go on, Gregor. I used to have to do that. Did you have to do tests or did you just tell people?

42:10The Game Hosts: Yes, but also if you were ill and that was one of your allotted days where you should have been at training, you would have to give a time and a location and your address and stuff. But there was pushback then for even having to do that. People thought, why are we having to do this? this is you know there was a lot of pushback so there will be again undoubtedly but you know

42:31Matt Lawton: I think Matt's right Really interesting Matt as you say you're not going to let this one drop we'll be keeping on top of it as an issue and on the situation at Tottenham so listeners make sure you're following Matt and get yourself a time subscription to hear the latest on both of those issues Matt we'll let you go thank you very much for joining us on the game

42:46The Game Hosts: Pleasure

42:48Matt Lawton: Absolutely fascinating to hear from our Chief Sports Correspondent Matt Lawton let's finish with some women's football it's been a right sprawling show this hasn't it Greg Gregor, goalkeepers, England picks drugs in football. Absolutely amazing. Let's finish with some actual football, some goals, some passes, some results, some wins, some loses and all that kind of stuff. Kit, the Women's Super League got underway on Friday night. Chelsea, the champions, beating Manchester City 2-1. Loads of other things to talk about. What were the big kind of talking points from the opening weekend? Yeah, well, let's start with Chelsea.

43:18Matt Lawton: Much the same as last year, not necessarily playing brilliantly, but finding a way to win against Manchester City, a tights contender. probably positives for both teams the fact that Man City competes with Chelsea they can definitely take things from that the fact they didn't get anything at Stamford Bridge does feel like an opportunity missed Saturday was probably the most interesting game kind of going into the weekend we were billing it as almost like old money the new money Arsenal against London City Lionesses obviously everyone knows about Arsenal in a women's game London City had a big spenders no affiliated men's team and promoted from last season.

43:55Matt Lawton: Yeah, so first standalone club in the WSL. And for the first 20 to 25 minutes, London City were probably the better team. They were 1-0 up. It was a close game, but they went 1-0 up with a penalty and you couldn't complain with that. And it kind of showed they're here to stay. They're not as good as a team like Arsenal yet. And that's why Arsenal came back and won 4-1. But by the standards of newly promoted teams, London City mean business than they should with the amount of money they've spent. And then we had four games yesterday. The pick of them was Everton winning yet another Merseyside derby.

44:30Matt Lawton: In women's football, Everton dominated that fixture. That's eight games unbeaten, of which they've won six. And they've also... But this was quite a win. 4-1. Yeah, it was at Anfield. They played 6-1, 6 at Anfield. So obviously Liverpool are traditionally the bigger club in that city, but in women's football, it's Everton at the moment. And Ornella Vignola for Everton, scoring a hat-trick at Anfield. I mean, in terms of being an Everton hero, that's pretty much secured her place in the Everton pantheon for life, hasn't it? Yeah, and the stat doing the rounds yesterday, which is a brilliant stat, is she is the first Everton player, men's or women's, to score a hat-trick against Liverpool since Dixie Dean in 1931.

45:07Matt Lawton: Excellent stat. Yeah, right up there. And Everton are one to watch this season. We've obviously heard a lot about the investment in the club with the freaking group from the men's side, but they also seem pretty committed to the women's team. They've done similar stuff at Roma, really lifted Roma women up. And yeah, there's a lot of potential with Everton women playing at Goodison Park this year, signing, kind of unearthing players like Vignola, who wasn't really on the radar. And yeah, on the other hand, Liverpool, we praise them in the men's game for how they're in such rude financial health.

45:42Matt Lawton: But the difference between the men and the women is the men are at the top of the table and Liverpool women who try and have the same financially sustainable approach. They're just in mid-table, so they're one to watch as well, but for maybe not such positive reasons. And in terms of the established famous names now after that England triumph, the second European Championship triumph, are there any hangovers going into this season in terms of some of the players? You know, Millie Bright back for Chelsea, Aggie Beaver-Jones scoring for Chelsea, Ella Toon on the score sheet for Manchester United, of course.

46:11Matt Lawton: I mean, are there issues going into this season that, you know, maybe listeners who are only familiar with the England team when it comes to the women's game can kind of latch onto into the club season as well. Well, listeners who watched in the summer probably remember half the team seemed like they're playing for injuries, which was very lauded, kind of rightly is very heroic, but it kind of panned a price now in a way. Lucy Bronze played the whole tournament in the summer with a fractured tibia. She's not available. Lauren James also injured from an injury picked up in the summer. Leah Williamson has been in a knee brace for a worryingly long time for something that's been billed to us as a kind of clean-up from the procedure.

46:50Matt Lawton: So that's one to watch as well. So it's kind of some big names out. But there are still some performing. Ella Toon, as you say, scoring. Agui Beaver-Jones is a really interesting one. That's who I kind of wrote about from the Chelsea City game on Friday night because she's in a strange spot with England. Obviously, in the summer, Agui's a striker. We talked, obviously, a lot about Russo in the summer and then Michel Agimant. he was the teenager that came from nowhere Beaver Jones is kind of in the middle where she's only 22 so she's not as refined a centre forward as Russo is yet but she's also a little bit older than Aguiman so she's not quite that raw kind of really exciting talent that's come from nowhere but she's arguably could be the best of the three ones all said and done she's really versatile she can play across the front line she's quite a natural finisher so she was in the squad this summer didn't play so much She came on a couple of times, didn't she?

47:44Matt Lawton: She didn't get that super sub label in the way that Adjie ranked it. Exactly. And it's been sort of similar at Chelsea because Chelsea have such incredible depth in the four positions. It's not so much the case at the moment because James is injured. Myra Ramirez, who's another of their top strikers, is injured. Sam Kerr's just coming back from 20 months out. So the path's kind of clear for Beaver Jones to kind of be Chelsea starting number nine. And if she keeps scoring, then Serena Vigman's got a really nice problem to have where you've got to work out how to get Riso, Aggie and Michel Ajimang all in one team.

48:16Matt Lawton: And Ajimang is on loan at Brighton, right? Yes.

48:20The Game Hosts: How could Arsenal let her go back on loan? Again? After that summer?

48:26Matt Lawton: Yeah, I tend to agree with you, Gregor. Obviously, I'm not in charge of a football club as I have been.

48:32The Game Hosts: Not yet. Not yet.

48:34Matt Lawton: Matter of time. I can see why they've done it because she was at Brighton last year. had a decent loan spell and they're very a bit like Brighton men Brighton women they're seen as this very upwardly mobile resourceful club with fantastic facilities and going in the right direction so it's a good place for Ajman to develop and Arsenal do have a lot of forwards that can offset not having Ajman but even so as we talked about Ajman there's so much you can just do things that no other player can and that includes players like Russo she's just this incredible mix of physicality, of speed, of finesse and I just think why wouldn't you want her just to throw her on and maybe start some games as well, it's a long season for Arsenal I mean even in a cynically

49:20The Game Hosts: commercial view as well, you'd think they'd maybe try and harsh that, but

49:23Matt Lawton: she became the most famous person in the England team she's absolutely massive during the summer but maybe the idea is that she plays all the time for Brighton and maybe has a season where she's caused 15 goals or something and then next summer she comes in as if it's a new signing and they're like, ha ha, we had this all along. Perfectly planned. We will see what the future holds for Michelle Adjumang and the rest of the England stars in the WSL. We'll leave it there for now. Kit Shepard and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for Matt Lawton for joining us as well.

49:50Matt Lawton: We hope you've enjoyed this show. Thank you for listening. We'll be back later in the week. We'll see you then.

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